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Siamo davanti a una orgia regolatoria come dice il nostro ospite di oggi riusciranno tutti questi pacchetti legislativi a integrarsi tra loro oppure dovremmo leggerci ogni volta centinaia di articoli per capire come gestire I nostri dati e le nostre vite digitali? Vincenzo Zeno Zenkovic è professore ordinario di diritto comparato all'università di Roma 3 ma è molto altro: avvocato, consulente del governo, autore di articoli e monografie. È uno dei più importanti giuristi in Italia e in Europa in materia di diritto dell'informazione delle telecomunicazioni di internet e con lui parleremo di come navigare l'oceano di norme in cui galleggiano a fatica aziende e consumatori. Bentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic. La prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché la affidiamo all'intervistato cioè ci racconti il suo percorso professionale e come è arrivato oggi a occuparsi di questi argomenti al confine fra diritto e tecnologia? La storia è molto vecchia e quarant'anni cioè con l'uscita del primo la convenzione del Consiglio Europa 108 del millenovecentottantuno in materia di di protezione di dati personali. Mhmm una cosa che all'epoca era molto nuova e quindi quando uno è giovane si occupa di cose nuove e da allora mi è rimasto appiccicata questa diciamo questo attenzione verso le nuove tecnologie. Devo dire più vado avanti più preferirei occuparmi di archeologia piuttosto che di queste cose del futuro ma purtroppo uno non è che sceglie tutto nella vita. Bene adesso a proposito appunto di dati che sono il tema principale del rapporto soprattutto fra Stati Uniti ed Europa quando si parla di di tecnologia il rapporto è stato condizionato in questi anni da una serie di decisioni della Corte di giustizia europea ma parte tutto dal caso di Google news in Spagna del 2014 e parte da quel da quel momento lì una frizione sul tema tra Big Tech ed Europa che non si è ancora risolta nel senso che una serie di strumenti che sono stati immaginati per gestire il flusso transatlantico dei dati sono stati invalidati. Nel 2022 quest'anno c'è stato un incontro fra Ursula Von der Leyen e Joe Biden che hanno annunciato di aver trovato un accordo ma questo accordo al momento non c'è e dovrebbe arrivare insomma se tutto va bene nei prossimi mesi soprattutto dal lato americano c'è una grande difficoltà perché c'è probabilmente un problema politico nel anche solo nella forma in cui rendere attuale questo accordo Qual è lo stato delle cose e soprattutto quale può essere la strada per trovare finalmente una regolazione comune fra Stati Uniti ed Europa nel trasferimento dei dati, nella gestione dei dati? Ma io sono piuttosto pessimista, vedo, non vedo molte strade aperte. Perché nel 2000.14 con questa sentenza Google Spain, la Corte di giustizia l'Unione Europea afferma contrariamente a tutta la giurisprudenza precedente ma proprio stiamo parlando di trent'anni che Google Spain che raccoglieva soltanto pubblicità in nella in degli inserzionisti spagnoli in realtà comportava lo stabilimento in Europa di Google di Google grande non di Google Spain e dunque attraeva sotto diciamo il controllo del diritto europeo e in particolare la protezione dei dati l'intera Google. Quindi c'è una attrazione dal punto di vista della giurisdizione di una società che fino a quel momento aveva sempre ritenuto di essere americana e di essere assoggettata soltanto la cosa al diritto americano. Segnalo poi uno dei paradossi. Cioè non solo c'è questa espansione. Allora il caso Google Spaign come forse molti sapranno è il caso in nella quale la corte di giustizia dell'Unione Europea stabilisce il cosiddetto diritto all'oblio. Cioè il diritto di essere cancellati dal dal dai motori di ricerca deve essere deindicizzati ai motori di ricerca e quindi non essere più reperiti. Allora qui c'è il paradosso che a me piace raccontare in maniera un po' scherzosa. È questo qui. C'è un signore oscuro signore tale signor Mario Costea che mhmm una casa a San Felice un San Felice di vicino a Barcellona il quale per non aver pagato il alcune mhmm somme dovute alla previdenza sociale si vede pignorato l'immobile e venduto all'asta l'immobile. Questa cosa compare un trafiletto di quegli annunci giudiziari sul giornale l'avanguardia e mhmm vorrei dire e la cosa segue il suo il suo percorso. Vent'anni dopo il signor Costea vuol dire si lamenta del fatto che Google abbia mettendo il suo nome su Google sul motore di ricerca il motore di ricerca va sul sito dell'avanguardia trova ovviamente perché nel frattempo è digitalizzato il nome del signor Mario Costea. Ne nasce una controversa infinita. Il risultato finale è che la sentenza del diritto all'oblio determina che dico lo dico scherzosamente che quando uno fa il turista a mhmm mhmm a Barcellona viene alla Sagrada Famiglia Parco Guel casa Battlò e poi il pullman lo porta anche a Selfi Lou de Lobergat per vedere la casa del signor Mario Costea di cui tutti sanno tutto allora quello che è assurdo è che la sentenza che dovrebbe avrebbe dovuto sancire il diritto all'oblio determinano una notorietà planetaria di questo signor Costea forse se posso dire forse è un caso di più che diritto all'oblio diritto all'esibizionismo. Ecco allora ma solo per spiegare come ci sono alcune dinamiche a livello europeo che prescindono tutto dal da da dalla sostanza della cosa. Qual è la realtà? È che da quel momento in poi dal 2014 in poi l'Unione Europea in parte con la Corte di Giustizia in parte con la commissione e il consiglio tende a espandere la sua diciamo la sua il controllo dei dati sostenendo che I dati dei cittadini europei dovunque siano dovunque essi siano trattati da chiunque siano trattati sono soggettati al diritto europeo e dunque c'è una una sorta di imperialismo dei dati da parte dell'Unione Europea. Ovviamente questo non è visto di buon occhio dagli altri soggetti in particolare dagli Stati Uniti e adesso anche nella Cina ai quali ovviamente reagiscono con misure in qualche modo contrapposte rifiutandosi di consentire che le loro che I dati che loro raccolgono siano soggettati dal siano sottoposti al diritto europeo. Gli americani attraverso il Cloud act che sostanzialmente dice che I dati raccolti da società americane Google, Microsoft e quant'altro sono assoggettati al diritto americano e il le società americane devono rispondere alle decisioni dei giudici americani e non c'è possibilità di invocarla extra territorialità di questi dati questi dati dovunque siano sono soggetti al diritto americano I cinesi rispondono con un sistema di mhmm di il principio della localizzazione del trattamento dei dati per cui I dati dei cinesi possono essere trattati soltanto in Cina e non possono essere esportati. Quindi stiamo parlando in una guerra geopolitica sui dati tra queste varie questi vari soggetti che ovviamente non rende molto molto difficile molto difficile la una intesa tra questi 3 soggetti. Ecco questo è l'anno a proposito di rapporti transatlantici è l'anno di DMA e DSA cioè Digital Markets Act e Digital Services Act 2 pacchetti legislativi che insomma sono stati approvati dall'unione europea e che entreranno in vigore nel 2024 e avranno un impatto notevole vogliono avere un impatto notevole sulle grandi aziende tecnologiche americane. Il digital market act nel definire che cosa sono I gate keeper e quindi quali obblighi e quali doveri hanno questi soggetti che sono dei soggetti che per ora sono individuati tra le più grandi aziende tecnologiche mondiali ma che in un futuro potrebbero essere. La categoria si potrebbe allargare molto perché la Commissione Europea si è data anche il potere di definire che cosa sono questi cakeeper e quindi non sappiamo bene che cosa saranno in futuro mentre dall'altra parte Digital Services Act si occupa soprattutto delle condotte su queste piattaforme diciamo vuole vuole allineare quello che sono I diritti e doveri nella vita reale con quelli che sono nella nella vita online e anche una serie inserisce una serie di responsabilità su cosa viene pubblicato sui contenuti che vengono pubblicati su queste piattaforme. Ecco l'obiettivo è di da una parte regolare quello che magari era poco regolato finora e in teoria dall'altra anche di aiutare probabilmente alla creazione di campioni europei o di soggetti europei che siano in grado di competere nel mercato internazionale delle app, delle piattaforme, dei servizi digitali. Secondo lei questa strategia funzionerà? Questi pacchetti legislativi arriveranno troppo tardi? Saranno in grado di effettivamente regolamentare questo settore se poi nel resto del mondo questo regolamento non viene diciamo non viene fatto e quindi l'Europa diventerà questa superpotenza regolatoria che sogna di diventare o che pensa di essere? Io rispondo innanzitutto con una battuta che vale come una battuta cioè che in Europa non potendo offrire il pane della tecnologia si producono grandissimi cesti pieni di crosson normativi regolamentari. Cioè produciamo se noi producessimo tanta tecnologia quanto produciamo regolamenti saremmo la superpotenza non mondiale galattica. Il problema qual è? Che mhmm questa questa visione che l'Europa possa recuperare il gap dal punto di vista tecnologico con gli altri mhmm player mondiali in particolare con gli Stati Uniti e la Cina è una pia illusione. Se c'è qualcuno che delle idee e delle delle idee delle idee mhmm come dire brillanti va sicuramente negli Stati Uniti e perché va negli Stati Uniti? Perché c'è proprio perché non c'è quell'ossessione che invece c'è in Europa della regolamentazione. Allora mhmm lei citato il digital market act, il digital service, ma ricordo ci sono a parte I regolamenti in materia di dati personali 679 seicentottanta e seicentottanta e seicentottantuno del 2000.16 abbiamo queste questo pacchetto digitale digital service isac, digital markets act, data governance, data act, artificial intelligence act, un regolamento già in in vigore sulla circolazione dei dati non personali. Allora cerco anche qui uso una metafora in qualche modo antropocentrica. Mhmm cosa fanno 2 norme da sole in un cassetto di notte? Beh queste 2 queste 2 norme mhmm voglio dire non sapendo come cosa fare come impiegare il loro tempo si uniscono fra di loro e cominciano a moltiplicarsi. Perché così le norme sono come gli umani e gli piace fare questa attività di carattere, di carattere produttivo. Allora qual è la situazione? È che se noi prendiamo il pacchetto dei dati personali il 2000.16 noi vediamo che ci sono la bellezza I 321 considerando I considerando sono quelle premesse che spiegano il senso della della mhmm diciamo del del testo giuridico. Il giurista dice più scrivi più rendi le cose complicate. Se io dico una sola frase bah va bene l'interpretazione. Se cominci a scrivere 321 frasi lunghe lunghe lunghe per centinaia di pagine poi ci sono centottantasei articoli. A questi si aggiungono nel pacchetto digitale la bellezza di 434 considerando e 278 articoli senza considerare gli gli allegati e senza considerare che tutto questo nuovo pacchetto attribuisce alla commissione la possibilità di fare sub regolamenti e quindi di moltiplicare. Allora questo significa un incubo dal punto di vista normativo. Io ovviamente questo significa non per me perché sono ormai ho passato l'età ma è per le giovani generazioni giuristi lavoro da qui all'eternità perché hai tutte queste queste disposizioni che creeranno problemi di enforcement creeranno seguire queste indicazioni certo seguiranno seguire queste indicazioni. Certo seguiranno Bongree, Malgret dovranno seguirlo le grandi imprese ma cercheranno il più possibile di evitare perché le imprese sono non sono mhmm fatte da vedono la norma trovano il modo per cercare di aggirare soprattutto dal punto di vista tecnologico queste disposizioni. Quindi io lo vedo come un esercizio di carattere protezionistico nel quale si vuole dire tu se vuoi operare in Europa devi seguire certe regole queste regole io te le impongo e se no non operi in Europa serve per immaginare che ci possono essere dei piccoli dei piccoli operatori europei che facciano un po' di questo lavoro ma se no non vedo non francamente l'illusione che ci sia una industria una mhmm rigogliosa e giovane industria digitale europea mi sembra una una di quelle whichful sinking lo metto in maniera molto garbata. Bene ma lei che appunto seguito questo processo legislativo europeo stiamo un po' imparando da questi dagli errori o dal o dal da questi eccessi di legislazione che si sono fatti in questi anni cioè andando avanti ad esempio sull'intelligenza artificiale su delle materie che sono molto difficili da regolare diciamo ex ante perché ovviamente il contenuto poi della singola del singolo algoritmo del singolo processo è molto complicato da immaginare a livello normativo e poi nel coinvolgimento degli operatori delle aziende dei giuristi delle autorità nazionali cioè andando avanti lei vede una capacità di regolazione europea che sia più legata alla realtà all'attualità alla concretezza dei singoli settori oppure c'è un arroccamento da parte di Bruxelles su un processo che comunque va avanti indipendentemente da quello che succede intorno? Mi pare la seconda che detto, mi pare più probabile, mi pare una palude regolamentare nella quale ovviamente tutti rimarranno impigliati a cominciare dagli europei. È chiaro che poi noi diremo I nostri valori, noi proteggiamo I nostri valori, l'individuo, le scelte dell'autodeterminazione e così via dicendo. Ma quando la tecnologia è fatta da è fatta altrove, non è fatta in Europa, inevitabilmente saremo succubi della mhmm di queste tecnologie straniere le quali che dovremo accettare. Tra l'altro che cosa succede? Perché questo tutto questo profuvio regolamentare poi dici vabbè poi ci pensa la Corte di Giustizia mhmm e la Corte di Giustizia un un mare di di casi di fronte per per cercare di risolvere I vari dubbi che che sorgono ma mhmm inevitabilmente la Corte di Giustizia comincia a dire che queste disposizioni non sono conformi alla sua giurisprudenza, a Google Spein, Ash Rems e così via dicendo. L'ultima decisione è in materia del regolamento seicentottantuno in materia di di dati dei personali, dei viaggiatori in aereo in cui dice no, non li puoi trasferire negli Stati Uniti. Cioè una storia vecchia, stravecchia che che fosse il Safe Harbor il principio del porto sicuro, il che fosse il principio del privacy shield, lo scudo della privacy e così via dicendo, la Corte di giustizia regolarmente detto che questi mh questi queste disposizioni laddove cercano di aprire un tantino le maglie e consentire un tantino di di maggiore traffico con con gli Stati Uniti sono sono invalide. L'accordo tra Biden e la la Von der Leyen mi sembra una foto opportunity e tutto là ma non non francamente non riesco a comprendere come come si possa si possa arrivare a a ad un compromesso essendo chiara qual è la posizione americana essendo altrettanto chiara quelle europee non sono a mio avviso non sono assolutamente conciliabili. Nessuno vuole tirarsi indietro ma gli americani sono dominanti dal punto di vista tecnologico e a un certo punto le imprese europee dovranno dire scusate spiegateci quello che possiamo fare perché noi abbiamo bisogno di quella tecnologia e abbiamo bisogno che quella tecnologia sia costantemente pensate basti pensare all'internet of Things in cui tutte le app tutti gli oggetti fisici noi abbiamo una tecnologia americana che diciamo a Tesla no ma il signore Elon Musk non può controllare l'autovettura guardate che la Tesla è semplicemente è un è un è una base di dati con attorno un un pezzo di metallo tutto là non c'è altro È soltanto una macchina di dati quindi un processore di dati. Quei dati sono quando c'è lo leggiamo costantemente sui giornali quando c'è un problema con con Tesla io che c'ho la macchina mi trovo a via del corso a Roma non riesco ad aprire la macchina. E questa è la realtà del del e faccio un esempio banale. Potete immaginare quando passiamo parliamo di tecnologie più avanzate che sono di di meccatronica e così via dicendo che cosa significa la il significa la il cominciare a dire no ma voi americani non potete metterci le mani. Bah mi sembra mhmm ma è qualche cosa che non porta da nessuna parte. Però questa è la politica europea e ne prendiamo atto. Bene quindi la mhmm si potrà forse trovare un un minimo comune denominatore un qualche mhmm principio di base qualche clausola come è stato fatto finora qualche così regolazione minima per poter far andare avanti questo processo senza trovare un grande una grande soluzione che riesca a comprendere tutto perché poi ovviamente c'è la questione delle agenzie di sicurezza americane che vogliono avere l'accesso ovviamente ai dati anche degli europei quando sono trattati da da società americane dall'altra parte c'è invece la questione di che cosa possono fare queste agenzie americane con questi dati. Una tutela giurisdizionale è difficile ovviamente per qualcuno che sta in Europa e sa che I propri dati vengono maneggiati da un FBI o da un'agenzia di sicurezza degli Stati Uniti e quindi fondamentalmente andremo avanti perché la tecnologia va avanti e perché questa tecnologia è talmente diffusa che non si può paralizzare questo tipo di scambio ma quindi ecco è impossibile immaginare un un grande risultato che comprenda tutto che o abbia la la l'idea di diciamo questo qui che c'è un'alternativa ovviamente a livello teorico che è in qualche modo stata mhmm prospettata in Giappone dove sicuramente non manca né intelligenza né tecnologia e cioè quella di dire ma perché non ci limitiamo a fare dei grandi principi di carattere generale che poi applicheremo di volta in volta alle varie alle circostanze che che mutano e che cambiano. Naturalmente questo però richiederebbe un un azzerare un gigantesco una un sistema di regolazione un un normificio, un leggificio che è quello che abbiamo fatto creato in Europa in questi in questi ultimi anni quindi naturalmente non mi pare mhmm un'alternativa teorica c'è ma mhmm la vedo poco poco realistica. Perfetto grazie. L'ultima domanda che le faccio è quella di consigliarci un autore, un libro, un profilo Twitter, qualcuno che sia interessante da leggere e da conoscere per approfondire l'argomento di oggi. Allora io raccomanderei questo libro naturalmente è chiaro che è di un amico e quindi naturalmente uno che si chiama è in francese e quindi diamo un tantino anche un po' di onore ai nostri amici transalpini e non non fissiamoci soltanto sull'inglese che è una lingua ormai veicolare però non esistono tante altre lingue che sono belle ricche e piene di e piene di di di di spunti interessanti. Questo libro di Stefan Gromback che è un informatico direttore del uno dei centri di ricerca della scuola normale superiore di informatica di Lione e si chiama l'impero degli algoritmi è uscito un paio di mesi fa. Cosa dice cosa scrive Stefan Gromback? Sono sintetizzo 3 concetti uno come gli informatici hanno conquistato il vocabolario moderno e cioè si conquista un si trova spazio nella realtà nel momento in cui imponi le tue parole questa è la prima cosa che conta prima erano parole che nessuno sapeva nessuno conosceva tu prima cosa imponi le tue parole e le metti come elemento di carattere dominante parliamo tutti digitaliese in qualche modo e questo significa. Secondo punto molto importante: il potere si è sempre da sempre da sempre da quando lo conosciamo dai tempi più antichi strutturato come quella che noi definiamo oggi una piattaforma. Cioè il potere vede assieme convergere tutta una serie innanzitutto di informazioni e di attività di elaborazione in queste informazioni. Stiamo parlando dei Sumeri, degli Egizi, dell'Impero Romano o ovviamente successivamente delle dei vari Imperi che si sono succeduti, c'è un concetto di piattaforma. Quindi là quando noi ce la pidiamo con I cosiddetti con I cattivoni del GAFAM Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple e Microsoft come piattaforme e anche l'Unione Europea ovviamente queste queste piattaforme che sono cattivissime. È lo stato che è una piattaforma e quindi è una forma naturale di struttura di modo con il quale il potere si struttura. Il terzo punto nel libro di Stefan Grumbak è che nella sua prospettiva ci sono imperi digitali e colonie digitali e dice in maniera molto mhmm Stefangrubac è qualcuno che è vissuto 15 anni in Cina, una moglie cinese, insomma parla correntemente cinese, quindi voglio dire uno che grande competenza nel rapporti Europa Cina dice guardate ci sono imperi imperi digitali, Stati Uniti e Cina e poi ci sono colonie digitali e l'Europa è una colonia digitale. Credo che sia delle tesi che io vi ho sintetizzato in maniera come dire molto dozzinale ma che meritano di essere sulle quali riflettere. Grazie, grazie a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic e vi diamo appuntamento al prossimo incontro di Tecnopolicy. 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Questi sono solo alcuni dei pacchetti legislativi approvati o in via di scrittura da parte delle istituzioni europee. Siamo davanti a una orgia regolatoria come dice il nostro ospite di oggi riusciranno tutti questi pacchetti legislativi a integrarsi tra loro oppure dovremmo leggerci ogni volta centinaia di articoli per capire come gestire I nostri dati e le nostre vite digitali? Vincenzo Zeno Zenkovic è professore ordinario di diritto comparato all'università di Roma 3 ma è molto altro: avvocato, consulente del governo, autore di articoli e monografie. È uno dei più importanti giuristi in Italia e in Europa in materia di diritto dell'informazione delle telecomunicazioni di internet e con lui parleremo di come navigare l'oceano di norme in cui galleggiano a fatica aziende e consumatori.\n\nBentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic. La prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché la affidiamo all'intervistato cioè ci racconti il suo percorso professionale e come è arrivato oggi a occuparsi di questi argomenti al confine fra diritto e\n\nSpeaker 1: tecnologia? La storia è molto vecchia e quarant'anni cioè con l'uscita del primo la convenzione del Consiglio Europa 108 del millenovecentottantuno in materia di di protezione di dati personali. Mhmm una cosa che all'epoca era molto nuova e quindi quando uno è giovane si occupa di cose nuove e da allora mi è rimasto appiccicata questa diciamo questo attenzione verso le nuove tecnologie. Devo dire più vado avanti più preferirei occuparmi di archeologia piuttosto che di queste cose del futuro ma purtroppo uno non è che sceglie tutto nella vita. Bene\n\nSpeaker 0: adesso a proposito appunto di dati che sono il tema principale del rapporto soprattutto fra Stati Uniti ed Europa quando si parla di di tecnologia il rapporto è stato condizionato in questi anni da una serie di decisioni della Corte di giustizia europea ma parte tutto dal caso di Google news in Spagna del 2014 e parte da quel da quel momento lì una frizione sul tema tra Big Tech ed Europa che non si è ancora risolta nel senso che una serie di strumenti che sono stati immaginati per gestire il flusso transatlantico dei dati sono stati invalidati. Nel 2022 quest'anno c'è stato un incontro fra Ursula Von der Leyen e Joe Biden che hanno annunciato di aver trovato un accordo ma questo accordo al momento non c'è e dovrebbe arrivare insomma se tutto va bene nei prossimi mesi soprattutto dal lato americano c'è una grande difficoltà perché c'è probabilmente un problema politico nel anche solo nella forma in cui rendere attuale questo accordo Qual è lo stato delle cose e soprattutto quale può essere la strada per trovare finalmente una regolazione comune fra Stati Uniti ed Europa nel trasferimento dei dati, nella gestione dei dati?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ma io sono piuttosto pessimista, vedo, non vedo molte strade aperte. Perché nel 2000.14 con questa sentenza Google Spain, la Corte di giustizia l'Unione Europea afferma contrariamente a tutta la giurisprudenza precedente ma proprio stiamo parlando di trent'anni che Google Spain che raccoglieva soltanto pubblicità in nella in degli inserzionisti spagnoli in realtà comportava lo stabilimento in Europa di Google di Google grande non di Google Spain e dunque attraeva sotto diciamo il controllo del diritto europeo e in particolare la protezione dei dati l'intera Google. Quindi c'è una attrazione dal punto di vista della giurisdizione di una società che fino a quel momento aveva sempre ritenuto di essere americana e di essere assoggettata soltanto la cosa al diritto americano. Segnalo poi uno dei paradossi. Cioè non solo c'è questa espansione.\n\nAllora il caso Google Spaign come forse molti sapranno è il caso in nella quale la corte di giustizia dell'Unione Europea stabilisce il cosiddetto diritto all'oblio. Cioè il diritto di essere cancellati dal dal dai motori di ricerca deve essere deindicizzati ai motori di ricerca e quindi non essere più reperiti. Allora qui c'è il paradosso che a me piace raccontare in maniera un po' scherzosa. È questo qui. C'è un signore oscuro signore tale signor Mario Costea che mhmm una casa a San Felice un San Felice di vicino a Barcellona il quale per non aver pagato il alcune mhmm somme dovute alla previdenza sociale si vede pignorato l'immobile e venduto all'asta l'immobile.\n\nQuesta cosa compare un trafiletto di quegli annunci giudiziari sul giornale l'avanguardia e mhmm vorrei dire e la cosa segue il suo il suo percorso. Vent'anni dopo il signor Costea vuol dire si lamenta del fatto che Google abbia mettendo il suo nome su Google sul motore di ricerca il motore di ricerca va sul sito dell'avanguardia trova ovviamente perché nel frattempo è digitalizzato il nome del signor Mario Costea. Ne nasce una controversa infinita. Il risultato finale è che la sentenza del diritto all'oblio determina che dico lo dico scherzosamente che quando uno fa il turista a mhmm mhmm a Barcellona viene alla Sagrada Famiglia Parco Guel casa Battlò e poi il pullman lo porta anche a Selfi Lou de Lobergat per vedere la casa del signor Mario Costea di cui tutti sanno tutto allora quello che è assurdo è che la sentenza che dovrebbe avrebbe dovuto sancire il diritto all'oblio determinano una notorietà planetaria di questo signor Costea forse se posso dire forse è un caso di più che diritto all'oblio diritto all'esibizionismo. Ecco allora ma solo per spiegare come ci sono alcune dinamiche a livello europeo che prescindono tutto dal da da dalla sostanza della cosa.\n\nQual è la realtà? È che da quel momento in poi dal 2014 in poi l'Unione Europea in parte con la Corte di Giustizia in parte con la commissione e il consiglio tende a espandere la sua diciamo la sua il controllo dei dati sostenendo che I dati dei cittadini europei dovunque siano dovunque essi siano trattati da chiunque siano trattati sono soggettati al diritto europeo e dunque c'è una una sorta di imperialismo dei dati da parte dell'Unione Europea. Ovviamente questo non è visto di buon occhio dagli altri soggetti in particolare dagli Stati Uniti e adesso anche nella Cina ai quali ovviamente reagiscono con misure in qualche modo contrapposte rifiutandosi di consentire che le loro che I dati che loro raccolgono siano soggettati dal siano sottoposti al diritto europeo. Gli americani attraverso il Cloud act che sostanzialmente dice che I dati raccolti da società americane Google, Microsoft e quant'altro sono assoggettati al diritto americano e il le società americane devono rispondere alle decisioni dei giudici americani e non c'è possibilità di invocarla extra territorialità di questi dati questi dati dovunque siano sono soggetti al diritto americano I cinesi rispondono con un sistema di mhmm di il principio della localizzazione del trattamento dei dati per cui I dati dei cinesi possono essere trattati soltanto in Cina e non possono essere esportati.\n\nQuindi stiamo parlando in una guerra geopolitica sui dati tra queste varie questi vari soggetti che ovviamente non rende molto molto difficile molto difficile la una intesa tra questi 3 soggetti.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ecco questo è l'anno a proposito di rapporti transatlantici è l'anno di DMA e DSA cioè Digital Markets Act e Digital Services Act 2 pacchetti legislativi che insomma sono stati approvati dall'unione europea e che entreranno in vigore nel 2024 e avranno un impatto notevole vogliono avere un impatto notevole sulle grandi aziende tecnologiche americane. Il digital market act nel definire che cosa sono I gate keeper e quindi quali obblighi e quali doveri hanno questi soggetti che sono dei soggetti che per ora sono individuati tra le più grandi aziende tecnologiche mondiali ma che in un futuro potrebbero essere. La categoria si potrebbe allargare molto perché la Commissione Europea si è data anche il potere di definire che cosa sono questi cakeeper e quindi non sappiamo bene che cosa saranno in futuro mentre dall'altra parte Digital Services Act si occupa soprattutto delle condotte su queste piattaforme diciamo vuole vuole allineare quello che sono I diritti e doveri nella vita reale con quelli che sono nella nella vita online e anche una serie inserisce una serie di responsabilità su cosa viene pubblicato sui contenuti che vengono pubblicati su queste piattaforme. Ecco l'obiettivo è di da una parte regolare quello che magari era poco regolato finora e in teoria dall'altra anche di aiutare probabilmente alla creazione di campioni europei o di soggetti europei che siano in grado di competere nel mercato internazionale delle app, delle piattaforme, dei servizi digitali.\n\nSecondo lei questa strategia funzionerà? Questi pacchetti legislativi arriveranno troppo tardi? Saranno in grado di effettivamente regolamentare questo settore se poi nel resto del mondo questo regolamento non viene diciamo non viene fatto e quindi l'Europa diventerà questa superpotenza regolatoria che sogna di diventare o che pensa di essere?\n\nSpeaker 1: Io rispondo innanzitutto con una battuta che vale come una battuta cioè che in Europa non potendo offrire il pane della tecnologia si producono grandissimi cesti pieni di crosson normativi regolamentari. Cioè produciamo se noi producessimo tanta tecnologia quanto produciamo regolamenti saremmo la superpotenza non mondiale galattica. Il problema qual è? Che mhmm questa questa visione che l'Europa possa recuperare il gap dal punto di vista tecnologico con gli altri mhmm player mondiali in particolare con gli Stati Uniti e la Cina è una pia illusione. Se c'è qualcuno che delle idee e delle delle idee delle idee mhmm come dire brillanti va sicuramente negli Stati Uniti e perché va negli Stati Uniti?\n\nPerché c'è proprio perché non c'è quell'ossessione che invece c'è in Europa della regolamentazione. Allora mhmm lei citato il digital market act, il digital service, ma ricordo ci sono a parte I regolamenti in materia di dati personali 679 seicentottanta e seicentottanta e seicentottantuno del 2000.16 abbiamo queste questo pacchetto digitale digital service isac, digital markets act, data governance, data act, artificial intelligence act, un regolamento già in in vigore sulla circolazione dei dati non personali. Allora cerco anche qui uso una metafora in qualche modo antropocentrica. Mhmm cosa fanno 2 norme da sole in un cassetto di notte? Beh queste 2 queste 2 norme mhmm voglio dire non sapendo come cosa fare come impiegare il loro tempo si uniscono fra di loro e cominciano a moltiplicarsi.\n\nPerché così le norme sono come gli umani e gli piace fare questa attività di carattere, di carattere produttivo. Allora qual è la situazione? È che se noi prendiamo il pacchetto dei dati personali il 2000.16 noi vediamo che ci sono la bellezza I 321 considerando I considerando sono quelle premesse che spiegano il senso della della mhmm diciamo del del testo giuridico. Il giurista dice più scrivi più rendi le cose complicate. Se io dico una sola frase bah va bene l'interpretazione.\n\nSe cominci a scrivere 321 frasi lunghe lunghe lunghe per centinaia di pagine poi ci sono centottantasei articoli. A questi si aggiungono nel pacchetto digitale la bellezza di 434 considerando e 278 articoli senza considerare gli gli allegati e senza considerare che tutto questo nuovo pacchetto attribuisce alla commissione la possibilità di fare sub regolamenti e quindi di moltiplicare. Allora questo significa un incubo dal punto di vista normativo. Io ovviamente questo significa non per me perché sono ormai ho passato l'età ma è per le giovani generazioni giuristi lavoro da qui all'eternità perché hai tutte queste queste disposizioni che creeranno problemi di enforcement creeranno seguire queste indicazioni certo seguiranno seguire queste indicazioni. Certo seguiranno Bongree, Malgret dovranno seguirlo le grandi imprese ma cercheranno il più possibile di evitare perché le imprese sono non sono mhmm fatte da vedono la norma trovano il modo per cercare di aggirare soprattutto dal punto di vista tecnologico queste disposizioni.\n\nQuindi io lo vedo come un esercizio di carattere protezionistico nel quale si vuole dire tu se vuoi operare in Europa devi seguire certe regole queste regole io te le impongo e se no non operi in Europa serve per immaginare che ci possono essere dei piccoli dei piccoli operatori europei che facciano un po' di questo lavoro ma se no non vedo non francamente l'illusione che ci sia una industria una mhmm rigogliosa e giovane industria digitale europea mi sembra una una di quelle whichful sinking lo metto in maniera molto garbata.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bene ma lei che appunto seguito questo processo legislativo europeo stiamo un po' imparando da questi dagli errori o dal o dal da questi eccessi di legislazione che si sono fatti in questi anni cioè andando avanti ad esempio sull'intelligenza artificiale su delle materie che sono molto difficili da regolare diciamo ex ante perché ovviamente il contenuto poi della singola del singolo algoritmo del singolo processo è molto complicato da immaginare a livello normativo e poi nel coinvolgimento degli operatori delle aziende dei giuristi delle autorità nazionali cioè andando avanti lei vede una capacità di regolazione europea che sia più legata alla realtà all'attualità alla concretezza dei singoli settori oppure c'è un arroccamento da parte di Bruxelles su un processo che comunque va avanti indipendentemente da quello che succede intorno?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mi pare la seconda che detto, mi pare più probabile, mi pare una palude regolamentare nella quale ovviamente tutti rimarranno impigliati a cominciare dagli europei. È chiaro che poi noi diremo I nostri valori, noi proteggiamo I nostri valori, l'individuo, le scelte dell'autodeterminazione e così via dicendo. Ma quando la tecnologia è fatta da è fatta altrove, non è fatta in Europa, inevitabilmente saremo succubi della mhmm di queste tecnologie straniere le quali che dovremo accettare. Tra l'altro che cosa succede? Perché questo tutto questo profuvio regolamentare poi dici vabbè poi ci pensa la Corte di Giustizia mhmm e la Corte di Giustizia un un mare di di casi di fronte per per cercare di risolvere I vari dubbi che che sorgono ma mhmm inevitabilmente la Corte di Giustizia comincia a dire che queste disposizioni non sono conformi alla sua giurisprudenza, a Google Spein, Ash Rems e così via dicendo.\n\nL'ultima decisione è in materia del regolamento seicentottantuno in materia di di dati dei personali, dei viaggiatori in aereo in cui dice no, non li puoi trasferire negli Stati Uniti. Cioè una storia vecchia, stravecchia che che fosse il Safe Harbor il principio del porto sicuro, il che fosse il principio del privacy shield, lo scudo della privacy e così via dicendo, la Corte di giustizia regolarmente detto che questi mh questi queste disposizioni laddove cercano di aprire un tantino le maglie e consentire un tantino di di maggiore traffico con con gli Stati Uniti sono sono invalide. L'accordo tra Biden e la la Von der Leyen mi sembra una foto opportunity e tutto là ma non non francamente non riesco a comprendere come come si possa si possa arrivare a a ad un compromesso essendo chiara qual è la posizione americana essendo altrettanto chiara quelle europee non sono a mio avviso non sono assolutamente conciliabili. Nessuno vuole tirarsi indietro ma gli americani sono dominanti dal punto di vista tecnologico e a un certo punto le imprese europee dovranno dire scusate spiegateci quello che possiamo fare perché noi abbiamo bisogno di quella tecnologia e abbiamo bisogno che quella tecnologia sia costantemente pensate basti pensare all'internet of Things in cui tutte le app tutti gli oggetti fisici noi abbiamo una tecnologia americana che diciamo a Tesla no ma il signore Elon Musk non può controllare l'autovettura guardate che la Tesla è semplicemente è un è un è una base di dati con attorno un un pezzo di metallo tutto là non c'è altro È soltanto una macchina di dati quindi un processore di dati.\n\nQuei dati sono quando c'è lo leggiamo costantemente sui giornali quando c'è un problema con con Tesla io che c'ho la macchina mi trovo a via del corso a Roma non riesco ad aprire la macchina. E questa è la realtà del del e faccio un esempio banale. Potete immaginare quando passiamo parliamo di tecnologie più avanzate che sono di di meccatronica e così via dicendo che cosa significa la il significa la il cominciare a dire no ma voi americani non potete metterci le mani. Bah mi sembra mhmm ma è qualche cosa che non porta da nessuna parte. Però questa è la politica europea e ne\n\nSpeaker 0: prendiamo atto. Bene quindi la mhmm si potrà forse trovare un un minimo comune denominatore un qualche mhmm principio di base qualche clausola come è stato fatto finora qualche così regolazione minima per poter far andare avanti questo processo senza trovare un grande una grande soluzione che riesca a comprendere tutto perché poi ovviamente c'è la questione delle agenzie di sicurezza americane che vogliono avere l'accesso ovviamente ai dati anche degli europei quando sono trattati da da società americane dall'altra parte c'è invece la questione di che cosa possono fare queste agenzie americane con questi dati. Una tutela giurisdizionale è difficile ovviamente per qualcuno che sta in Europa e sa che I propri dati vengono maneggiati da un FBI o da un'agenzia di sicurezza degli Stati Uniti e quindi fondamentalmente andremo avanti perché la tecnologia va avanti e perché questa tecnologia è talmente diffusa che non si può paralizzare questo tipo di scambio ma quindi ecco è impossibile immaginare un un grande risultato che comprenda tutto che o abbia la la l'idea di diciamo\n\nSpeaker 1: questo qui che c'è un'alternativa ovviamente a livello teorico che è in qualche modo stata mhmm prospettata in Giappone dove sicuramente non manca né intelligenza né tecnologia e cioè quella di dire ma perché non ci limitiamo a fare dei grandi principi di carattere generale che poi applicheremo di volta in volta alle varie alle circostanze che che mutano e che cambiano. Naturalmente questo però richiederebbe un un azzerare un gigantesco una un sistema di regolazione un un normificio, un leggificio che è quello che abbiamo fatto creato in Europa in questi in questi ultimi anni quindi naturalmente non mi pare mhmm un'alternativa teorica c'è ma mhmm la vedo poco poco\n\nSpeaker 0: realistica. Perfetto grazie. L'ultima domanda che le faccio è quella di consigliarci un autore, un libro, un profilo Twitter, qualcuno che sia interessante da leggere\n\nSpeaker 1: e da conoscere per approfondire l'argomento di oggi. Allora io raccomanderei questo libro naturalmente è chiaro che è di un amico e quindi naturalmente uno che si chiama è in francese e quindi diamo un tantino anche un po' di onore ai nostri amici transalpini e non non fissiamoci soltanto sull'inglese che è una lingua ormai veicolare però non esistono tante altre lingue che sono belle ricche e piene di e piene di di di di spunti interessanti. Questo libro di Stefan Gromback che è un informatico direttore del uno dei centri di ricerca della scuola normale superiore di informatica di Lione e si chiama l'impero degli algoritmi è uscito un paio di mesi fa. Cosa dice cosa scrive Stefan Gromback? Sono sintetizzo 3 concetti uno come gli informatici hanno conquistato il vocabolario moderno e cioè si conquista un si trova spazio nella realtà nel momento in cui imponi le tue parole questa è la prima cosa che conta prima erano parole che nessuno sapeva nessuno conosceva tu prima cosa imponi le tue parole e le metti come elemento di carattere dominante parliamo tutti digitaliese in qualche modo e questo significa.\n\nSecondo punto molto importante: il potere si è sempre da sempre da sempre da quando lo conosciamo dai tempi più antichi strutturato come quella che noi definiamo oggi una piattaforma. Cioè il potere vede assieme convergere tutta una serie innanzitutto di informazioni e di attività di elaborazione in queste informazioni. Stiamo parlando dei Sumeri, degli Egizi, dell'Impero Romano o ovviamente successivamente delle dei vari Imperi che si sono succeduti, c'è un concetto di piattaforma. Quindi là quando noi ce la pidiamo con I cosiddetti con I cattivoni del GAFAM Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple e Microsoft come piattaforme e anche l'Unione Europea ovviamente queste queste piattaforme che sono cattivissime. È lo stato che è una piattaforma e quindi è una forma naturale di struttura di modo con il quale il potere si struttura.\n\nIl terzo punto nel libro di Stefan Grumbak è che nella sua prospettiva ci sono imperi digitali e colonie digitali e dice in maniera molto mhmm Stefangrubac è qualcuno che è vissuto 15 anni in Cina, una moglie cinese, insomma parla correntemente cinese, quindi voglio dire uno che grande competenza nel rapporti Europa Cina dice guardate ci sono imperi imperi digitali, Stati Uniti e Cina e poi ci sono colonie digitali e l'Europa è una colonia digitale. Credo che sia delle tesi che io vi ho sintetizzato in maniera come dire molto dozzinale ma che meritano di essere sulle quali riflettere.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie, grazie a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic e vi diamo appuntamento al prossimo incontro di Tecnopolicy. Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Prendete carta e penna, accordo sul trasferimento dati, GDPR, digital market act, digital services act, AI Act, cioè il nuovo regolamento sull'intelligenza artificiale e poi data governance act e data act.", "start": 10.16, "end": 24.795 }, { "text": "Questi sono solo alcuni dei pacchetti legislativi approvati o in via di scrittura da parte delle istituzioni europee.", "start": 25.175, "end": 31.595001 }, { "text": "Siamo davanti a una orgia regolatoria come dice il nostro ospite di oggi riusciranno tutti questi pacchetti legislativi a integrarsi tra loro oppure dovremmo leggerci ogni volta centinaia di articoli per capire come gestire I nostri dati e le nostre vite digitali?", "start": 32.2, "end": 46.54 }, { "text": "Vincenzo Zeno Zenkovic è professore ordinario di diritto comparato all'università di Roma 3 ma è molto altro: avvocato, consulente del governo, autore di articoli e monografie.", "start": 46.885, "end": 56.024998 }, { "text": "È uno dei più importanti giuristi in Italia e in Europa in materia di diritto dell'informazione delle telecomunicazioni di internet e con lui parleremo di come navigare l'oceano di norme in cui galleggiano a fatica aziende e consumatori.", "start": 56.245, "end": 68.64 } ], "start": 10.16, "end": 68.64, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic.", "start": 72.38, "end": 75.68 }, { "text": "La prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché la affidiamo all'intervistato cioè ci racconti il suo percorso professionale e come è arrivato oggi a occuparsi di questi argomenti al confine fra diritto e", "start": 76.924995, "end": 96.740005 } ], "start": 72.38, "end": 96.740005, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "tecnologia?", "start": 97.04, "end": 97.54 }, { "text": "La storia è molto vecchia e quarant'anni cioè con l'uscita del primo la convenzione del Consiglio Europa 108 del millenovecentottantuno in materia di di protezione di dati personali.", "start": 98.0, "end": 112.055 }, { "text": "Mhmm una cosa che all'epoca era molto nuova e quindi quando uno è giovane si occupa di cose nuove e da allora mi è rimasto appiccicata questa diciamo questo attenzione verso le nuove tecnologie.", "start": 112.055, "end": 128.20999 }, { "text": "Devo dire più vado avanti più preferirei occuparmi di archeologia piuttosto che di queste cose del futuro ma purtroppo uno non è che sceglie tutto nella vita.", "start": 128.51, "end": 137.095 }, { "text": "Bene", "start": 137.955, "end": 138.455 } ], "start": 97.04, "end": 138.455, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "adesso a proposito appunto di dati che sono il tema principale del rapporto soprattutto fra Stati Uniti ed Europa quando si parla di di tecnologia il rapporto è stato condizionato in questi anni da una serie di decisioni della Corte di giustizia europea ma parte tutto dal caso di Google news in Spagna del 2014 e parte da quel da quel momento lì una frizione sul tema tra Big Tech ed Europa che non si è ancora risolta nel senso che una serie di strumenti che sono stati immaginati per gestire il flusso transatlantico dei dati sono stati invalidati.", "start": 140.355, "end": 188.31 }, { "text": "Nel 2022 quest'anno c'è stato un incontro fra Ursula Von der Leyen e Joe Biden che hanno annunciato di aver trovato un accordo ma questo accordo al momento non c'è e dovrebbe arrivare insomma se tutto va bene nei prossimi mesi soprattutto dal lato americano c'è una grande difficoltà perché c'è probabilmente un problema politico nel anche solo nella forma in cui rendere attuale questo accordo Qual è lo stato delle cose e soprattutto quale può essere la strada per trovare finalmente una regolazione comune fra Stati Uniti ed Europa nel trasferimento dei dati, nella gestione dei dati?", "start": 189.82501, "end": 230.91 } ], "start": 140.355, "end": 230.91, "num_words": 197.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ma io sono piuttosto pessimista, vedo, non vedo molte strade aperte.", "start": 231.23001, "end": 235.81 }, { "text": "Perché nel 2000.14 con questa sentenza Google Spain, la Corte di giustizia l'Unione Europea afferma contrariamente a tutta la giurisprudenza precedente ma proprio stiamo parlando di trent'anni che Google Spain che raccoglieva soltanto pubblicità in nella in degli inserzionisti spagnoli in realtà comportava lo stabilimento in Europa di Google di Google grande non di Google Spain e dunque attraeva sotto diciamo il controllo del diritto europeo e in particolare la protezione dei dati l'intera Google.", "start": 236.67, "end": 279.285 }, { "text": "Quindi c'è una attrazione dal punto di vista della giurisdizione di una società che fino a quel momento aveva sempre ritenuto di essere americana e di essere assoggettata soltanto la cosa al diritto americano.", "start": 279.285, "end": 291.76 }, { "text": "Segnalo poi uno dei paradossi.", "start": 292.14, "end": 293.84 }, { "text": "Cioè non solo c'è questa espansione.", "start": 294.14, "end": 295.84 } ], "start": 231.23001, "end": 295.84, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Allora il caso Google Spaign come forse molti sapranno è il caso in nella quale la corte di giustizia dell'Unione Europea stabilisce il cosiddetto diritto all'oblio.", "start": 295.98, "end": 305.805 }, { "text": "Cioè il diritto di essere cancellati dal dal dai motori di ricerca deve essere deindicizzati ai motori di ricerca e quindi non essere più reperiti.", "start": 306.185, "end": 317.25 }, { "text": "Allora qui c'è il paradosso che a me piace raccontare in maniera un po' scherzosa.", "start": 317.38998, "end": 321.72998 }, { "text": "È questo qui.", "start": 322.03, "end": 322.66998 }, { "text": "C'è un signore oscuro signore tale signor Mario Costea che mhmm una casa a San Felice un San Felice di vicino a Barcellona il quale per non aver pagato il alcune mhmm somme dovute alla previdenza sociale si vede pignorato l'immobile e venduto all'asta l'immobile.", "start": 322.66998, "end": 347.24002 } ], "start": 295.98, "end": 347.24002, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questa cosa compare un trafiletto di quegli annunci giudiziari sul giornale l'avanguardia e mhmm vorrei dire e la cosa segue il suo il suo percorso.", "start": 347.62, "end": 358.055 }, { "text": "Vent'anni dopo il signor Costea vuol dire si lamenta del fatto che Google abbia mettendo il suo nome su Google sul motore di ricerca il motore di ricerca va sul sito dell'avanguardia trova ovviamente perché nel frattempo è digitalizzato il nome del signor Mario Costea.", "start": 358.35498, "end": 378.65 }, { "text": "Ne nasce una controversa infinita.", "start": 378.865, "end": 381.205 }, { "text": "Il risultato finale è che la sentenza del diritto all'oblio determina che dico lo dico scherzosamente che quando uno fa il turista a mhmm mhmm a Barcellona viene alla Sagrada Famiglia Parco Guel casa Battlò e poi il pullman lo porta anche a Selfi Lou de Lobergat per vedere la casa del signor Mario Costea di cui tutti sanno tutto allora quello che è assurdo è che la sentenza che dovrebbe avrebbe dovuto sancire il diritto all'oblio determinano una notorietà planetaria di questo signor Costea forse se posso dire forse è un caso di più che diritto all'oblio diritto all'esibizionismo.", "start": 381.745, "end": 419.025 }, { "text": "Ecco allora ma solo per spiegare come ci sono alcune dinamiche a livello europeo che prescindono tutto dal da da dalla sostanza della cosa.", "start": 419.645, "end": 429.31 } ], "start": 347.62, "end": 429.31, "num_words": 199.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Qual è la realtà?", "start": 429.31, "end": 430.69 }, { "text": "È che da quel momento in poi dal 2014 in poi l'Unione Europea in parte con la Corte di Giustizia in parte con la commissione e il consiglio tende a espandere la sua diciamo la sua il controllo dei dati sostenendo che I dati dei cittadini europei dovunque siano dovunque essi siano trattati da chiunque siano trattati sono soggettati al diritto europeo e dunque c'è una una sorta di imperialismo dei dati da parte dell'Unione Europea.", "start": 430.83, "end": 466.68 }, { "text": "Ovviamente questo non è visto di buon occhio dagli altri soggetti in particolare dagli Stati Uniti e adesso anche nella Cina ai quali ovviamente reagiscono con misure in qualche modo contrapposte rifiutandosi di consentire che le loro che I dati che loro raccolgono siano soggettati dal siano sottoposti al diritto europeo.", "start": 466.995, "end": 490.46 }, { "text": "Gli americani attraverso il Cloud act che sostanzialmente dice che I dati raccolti da società americane Google, Microsoft e quant'altro sono assoggettati al diritto americano e il le società americane devono rispondere alle decisioni dei giudici americani e non c'è possibilità di invocarla extra territorialità di questi dati questi dati dovunque siano sono soggetti al diritto americano I cinesi rispondono con un sistema di mhmm di il principio della localizzazione del trattamento dei dati per cui I dati dei cinesi possono essere trattati soltanto in Cina e non possono essere esportati.", "start": 490.46, "end": 528.915 } ], "start": 429.31, "end": 528.915, "num_words": 222.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi stiamo parlando in una guerra geopolitica sui dati tra queste varie questi vari soggetti che ovviamente non rende molto molto difficile molto difficile la una intesa tra questi 3 soggetti.", "start": 529.055, "end": 546.26 } ], "start": 529.055, "end": 546.26, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco questo è l'anno a proposito di rapporti transatlantici è l'anno di DMA e DSA cioè Digital Markets Act e Digital Services Act 2 pacchetti legislativi che insomma sono stati approvati dall'unione europea e che entreranno in vigore nel 2024 e avranno un impatto notevole vogliono avere un impatto notevole sulle grandi aziende tecnologiche americane.", "start": 546.88, "end": 576.705 }, { "text": "Il digital market act nel definire che cosa sono I gate keeper e quindi quali obblighi e quali doveri hanno questi soggetti che sono dei soggetti che per ora sono individuati tra le più grandi aziende tecnologiche mondiali ma che in un futuro potrebbero essere.", "start": 577.185, "end": 593.82996 }, { "text": "La categoria si potrebbe allargare molto perché la Commissione Europea si è data anche il potere di definire che cosa sono questi cakeeper e quindi non sappiamo bene che cosa saranno in futuro mentre dall'altra parte Digital Services Act si occupa soprattutto delle condotte su queste piattaforme diciamo vuole vuole allineare quello che sono I diritti e doveri nella vita reale con quelli che sono nella nella vita online e anche una serie inserisce una serie di responsabilità su cosa viene pubblicato sui contenuti che vengono pubblicati su queste piattaforme.", "start": 593.82996, "end": 626.17004 }, { "text": "Ecco l'obiettivo è di da una parte regolare quello che magari era poco regolato finora e in teoria dall'altra anche di aiutare probabilmente alla creazione di campioni europei o di soggetti europei che siano in grado di competere nel mercato internazionale delle app, delle piattaforme, dei servizi digitali.", "start": 626.95, "end": 651.27997 } ], "start": 546.88, "end": 651.27997, "num_words": 238.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Secondo lei questa strategia funzionerà?", "start": 651.27997, "end": 654.1 }, { "text": "Questi pacchetti legislativi arriveranno troppo tardi?", "start": 655.12, "end": 657.92 }, { "text": "Saranno in grado di effettivamente regolamentare questo settore se poi nel resto del mondo questo regolamento non viene diciamo non viene fatto e quindi l'Europa diventerà questa superpotenza regolatoria che sogna di diventare o che pensa di essere?", "start": 657.92, "end": 675.10504 } ], "start": 651.27997, "end": 675.10504, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Io rispondo innanzitutto con una battuta che vale come una battuta cioè che in Europa non potendo offrire il pane della tecnologia si producono grandissimi cesti pieni di crosson normativi regolamentari.", "start": 676.83997, "end": 691.145 }, { "text": "Cioè produciamo se noi producessimo tanta tecnologia quanto produciamo regolamenti saremmo la superpotenza non mondiale galattica.", "start": 691.445, "end": 699.78503 }, { "text": "Il problema qual è?", "start": 700.325, "end": 701.445 }, { "text": "Che mhmm questa questa visione che l'Europa possa recuperare il gap dal punto di vista tecnologico con gli altri mhmm player mondiali in particolare con gli Stati Uniti e la Cina è una pia illusione.", "start": 701.445, "end": 717.85 }, { "text": "Se c'è qualcuno che delle idee e delle delle idee delle idee mhmm come dire brillanti va sicuramente negli Stati Uniti e perché va negli Stati Uniti?", "start": 718.155, "end": 730.395 } ], "start": 676.83997, "end": 730.395, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perché c'è proprio perché non c'è quell'ossessione che invece c'è in Europa della regolamentazione.", "start": 730.395, "end": 736.7 }, { "text": "Allora mhmm lei citato il digital market act, il digital service, ma ricordo ci sono a parte I regolamenti in materia di dati personali 679 seicentottanta e seicentottanta e seicentottantuno del 2000.16 abbiamo queste questo pacchetto digitale digital service isac, digital markets act, data governance, data act, artificial intelligence act, un regolamento già in in vigore sulla circolazione dei dati non personali.", "start": 737.4, "end": 770.81 }, { "text": "Allora cerco anche qui uso una metafora in qualche modo antropocentrica.", "start": 770.81, "end": 782.385 }, { "text": "Mhmm cosa fanno 2 norme da sole in un cassetto di notte?", "start": 783.245, "end": 789.37 }, { "text": "Beh queste 2 queste 2 norme mhmm voglio dire non sapendo come cosa fare come impiegare il loro tempo si uniscono fra di loro e cominciano a moltiplicarsi.", "start": 789.67, "end": 798.655 } ], "start": 730.395, "end": 798.655, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perché così le norme sono come gli umani e gli piace fare questa attività di carattere, di carattere produttivo.", "start": 799.59503, "end": 805.775 }, { "text": "Allora qual è la situazione?", "start": 805.995, "end": 807.53503 }, { "text": "È che se noi prendiamo il pacchetto dei dati personali il 2000.16 noi vediamo che ci sono la bellezza I 321 considerando I considerando sono quelle premesse che spiegano il senso della della mhmm diciamo del del testo giuridico.", "start": 807.59503, "end": 825.48 }, { "text": "Il giurista dice più scrivi più rendi le cose complicate.", "start": 826.115, "end": 829.555 }, { "text": "Se io dico una sola frase bah va bene l'interpretazione.", "start": 829.555, "end": 832.295 } ], "start": 799.59503, "end": 832.295, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Se cominci a scrivere 321 frasi lunghe lunghe lunghe per centinaia di pagine poi ci sono centottantasei articoli.", "start": 832.435, "end": 840.295 }, { "text": "A questi si aggiungono nel pacchetto digitale la bellezza di 434 considerando e 278 articoli senza considerare gli gli allegati e senza considerare che tutto questo nuovo pacchetto attribuisce alla commissione la possibilità di fare sub regolamenti e quindi di moltiplicare.", "start": 841.17, "end": 862.185 }, { "text": "Allora questo significa un incubo dal punto di vista normativo.", "start": 862.64496, "end": 867.545 }, { "text": "Io ovviamente questo significa non per me perché sono ormai ho passato l'età ma è per le giovani generazioni giuristi lavoro da qui all'eternità perché hai tutte queste queste disposizioni che creeranno problemi di enforcement creeranno seguire queste indicazioni certo seguiranno seguire queste indicazioni.", "start": 867.685, "end": 912.855 }, { "text": "Certo seguiranno Bongree, Malgret dovranno seguirlo le grandi imprese ma cercheranno il più possibile di evitare perché le imprese sono non sono mhmm fatte da vedono la norma trovano il modo per cercare di aggirare soprattutto dal punto di vista tecnologico queste disposizioni.", "start": 912.995, "end": 929.34 } ], "start": 832.435, "end": 929.34, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi io lo vedo come un esercizio di carattere protezionistico nel quale si vuole dire tu se vuoi operare in Europa devi seguire certe regole queste regole io te le impongo e se no non operi in Europa serve per immaginare che ci possono essere dei piccoli dei piccoli operatori europei che facciano un po' di questo lavoro ma se no non vedo non francamente l'illusione che ci sia una industria una mhmm rigogliosa e giovane industria digitale europea mi sembra una una di quelle whichful sinking lo metto in maniera molto garbata.", "start": 929.64, "end": 967.86005 } ], "start": 929.64, "end": 967.86005, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bene ma lei che appunto seguito questo processo legislativo europeo stiamo un po' imparando da questi dagli errori o dal o dal da questi eccessi di legislazione che si sono fatti in questi anni cioè andando avanti ad esempio sull'intelligenza artificiale su delle materie che sono molto difficili da regolare diciamo ex ante perché ovviamente il contenuto poi della singola del singolo algoritmo del singolo processo è molto complicato da immaginare a livello normativo e poi nel coinvolgimento degli operatori delle aziende dei giuristi delle autorità nazionali cioè andando avanti lei vede una capacità di regolazione europea che sia più legata alla realtà all'attualità alla concretezza dei singoli settori oppure c'è un arroccamento da parte di Bruxelles su un processo che comunque va avanti indipendentemente da quello che succede intorno?", "start": 968.615, "end": 1035.225 } ], "start": 968.615, "end": 1035.225, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mi pare la seconda che detto, mi pare più probabile, mi pare una palude regolamentare nella quale ovviamente tutti rimarranno impigliati a cominciare dagli europei.", "start": 1036.405, "end": 1046.9299 }, { "text": "È chiaro che poi noi diremo I nostri valori, noi proteggiamo I nostri valori, l'individuo, le scelte dell'autodeterminazione e così via dicendo.", "start": 1046.99, "end": 1055.595 }, { "text": "Ma quando la tecnologia è fatta da è fatta altrove, non è fatta in Europa, inevitabilmente saremo succubi della mhmm di queste tecnologie straniere le quali che dovremo accettare.", "start": 1055.9149, "end": 1068.975 }, { "text": "Tra l'altro che cosa succede?", "start": 1069.195, "end": 1070.715 }, { "text": "Perché questo tutto questo profuvio regolamentare poi dici vabbè poi ci pensa la Corte di Giustizia mhmm e la Corte di Giustizia un un mare di di casi di fronte per per cercare di risolvere I vari dubbi che che sorgono ma mhmm inevitabilmente la Corte di Giustizia comincia a dire che queste disposizioni non sono conformi alla sua giurisprudenza, a Google Spein, Ash Rems e così via dicendo.", "start": 1070.715, "end": 1101.5599 } ], "start": 1036.405, "end": 1101.5599, "num_words": 150.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "L'ultima decisione è in materia del regolamento seicentottantuno in materia di di dati dei personali, dei viaggiatori in aereo in cui dice no, non li puoi trasferire negli Stati Uniti.", "start": 1101.7799, "end": 1112.58 }, { "text": "Cioè una storia vecchia, stravecchia che che fosse il Safe Harbor il principio del porto sicuro, il che fosse il principio del privacy shield, lo scudo della privacy e così via dicendo, la Corte di giustizia regolarmente detto che questi mh questi queste disposizioni laddove cercano di aprire un tantino le maglie e consentire un tantino di di maggiore traffico con con gli Stati Uniti sono sono invalide.", "start": 1112.58, "end": 1144.8849 }, { "text": "L'accordo tra Biden e la la Von der Leyen mi sembra una foto opportunity e tutto là ma non non francamente non riesco a comprendere come come si possa si possa arrivare a a ad un compromesso essendo chiara qual è la posizione americana essendo altrettanto chiara quelle europee non sono a mio avviso non sono assolutamente conciliabili.", "start": 1145.0249, "end": 1173.2 }, { "text": "Nessuno vuole tirarsi indietro ma gli americani sono dominanti dal punto di vista tecnologico e a un certo punto le imprese europee dovranno dire scusate spiegateci quello che possiamo fare perché noi abbiamo bisogno di quella tecnologia e abbiamo bisogno che quella tecnologia sia costantemente pensate basti pensare all'internet of Things in cui tutte le app tutti gli oggetti fisici noi abbiamo una tecnologia americana che diciamo a Tesla no ma il signore Elon Musk non può controllare l'autovettura guardate che la Tesla è semplicemente è un è un è una base di dati con attorno un un pezzo di metallo tutto là non c'è altro È soltanto una macchina di dati quindi un processore di dati.", "start": 1173.535, "end": 1220.44 } ], "start": 1101.7799, "end": 1220.44, "num_words": 273.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quei dati sono quando c'è lo leggiamo costantemente sui giornali quando c'è un problema con con Tesla io che c'ho la macchina mi trovo a via del corso a Roma non riesco ad aprire la macchina.", "start": 1220.44, "end": 1231.9149 }, { "text": "E questa è la realtà del del e faccio un esempio banale.", "start": 1232.5349, "end": 1235.975 }, { "text": "Potete immaginare quando passiamo parliamo di tecnologie più avanzate che sono di di meccatronica e così via dicendo che cosa significa la il significa la il cominciare a dire no ma voi americani non potete metterci le mani.", "start": 1235.975, "end": 1249.03 }, { "text": "Bah mi sembra mhmm ma è qualche cosa che non porta da nessuna parte.", "start": 1249.09, "end": 1254.37 }, { "text": "Però questa è la politica europea e ne", "start": 1254.37, "end": 1257.01 } ], "start": 1220.44, "end": 1257.01, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "prendiamo atto.", "start": 1257.01, "end": 1257.705 }, { "text": "Bene quindi la mhmm si potrà forse trovare un un minimo comune denominatore un qualche mhmm principio di base qualche clausola come è stato fatto finora qualche così regolazione minima per poter far andare avanti questo processo senza trovare un grande una grande soluzione che riesca a comprendere tutto perché poi ovviamente c'è la questione delle agenzie di sicurezza americane che vogliono avere l'accesso ovviamente ai dati anche degli europei quando sono trattati da da società americane dall'altra parte c'è invece la questione di che cosa possono fare queste agenzie americane con questi dati.", "start": 1257.945, "end": 1299.55 }, { "text": "Una tutela giurisdizionale è difficile ovviamente per qualcuno che sta in Europa e sa che I propri dati vengono maneggiati da un FBI o da un'agenzia di sicurezza degli Stati Uniti e quindi fondamentalmente andremo avanti perché la tecnologia va avanti e perché questa tecnologia è talmente diffusa che non si può paralizzare questo tipo di scambio ma quindi ecco è impossibile immaginare un un grande risultato che comprenda tutto che o abbia la la l'idea di diciamo", "start": 1300.01, "end": 1340.775 } ], "start": 1257.01, "end": 1340.775, "num_words": 174.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "questo qui che c'è un'alternativa ovviamente a livello teorico che è in qualche modo stata mhmm prospettata in Giappone dove sicuramente non manca né intelligenza né tecnologia e cioè quella di dire ma perché non ci limitiamo a fare dei grandi principi di carattere generale che poi applicheremo di volta in volta alle varie alle circostanze che che mutano e che cambiano.", "start": 1341.3151, "end": 1368.395 }, { "text": "Naturalmente questo però richiederebbe un un azzerare un gigantesco una un sistema di regolazione un un normificio, un leggificio che è quello che abbiamo fatto creato in Europa in questi in questi ultimi anni quindi naturalmente non mi pare mhmm un'alternativa teorica c'è ma mhmm la vedo poco poco", "start": 1368.775, "end": 1400.435 } ], "start": 1341.3151, "end": 1400.435, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "realistica.", "start": 1401.135, "end": 1401.375 }, { "text": "Perfetto grazie.", "start": 1401.375, "end": 1402.415 }, { "text": "L'ultima domanda che le faccio è quella di consigliarci un autore, un libro, un profilo Twitter, qualcuno che sia interessante da leggere", "start": 1402.415, "end": 1413.4701 } ], "start": 1401.135, "end": 1413.4701, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "e da conoscere per approfondire l'argomento di oggi.", "start": 1413.4701, "end": 1416.61 }, { "text": "Allora io raccomanderei questo libro naturalmente è chiaro che è di un amico e quindi naturalmente uno che si chiama è in francese e quindi diamo un tantino anche un po' di onore ai nostri amici transalpini e non non fissiamoci soltanto sull'inglese che è una lingua ormai veicolare però non esistono tante altre lingue che sono belle ricche e piene di e piene di di di di spunti interessanti.", "start": 1417.165, "end": 1447.135 }, { "text": "Questo libro di Stefan Gromback che è un informatico direttore del uno dei centri di ricerca della scuola normale superiore di informatica di Lione e si chiama l'impero degli algoritmi è uscito un paio di mesi fa.", "start": 1447.2749, "end": 1463.2101 }, { "text": "Cosa dice cosa scrive Stefan Gromback?", "start": 1463.2101, "end": 1467.39 }, { "text": "Sono sintetizzo 3 concetti uno come gli informatici hanno conquistato il vocabolario moderno e cioè si conquista un si trova spazio nella realtà nel momento in cui imponi le tue parole questa è la prima cosa che conta prima erano parole che nessuno sapeva nessuno conosceva tu prima cosa imponi le tue parole e le metti come elemento di carattere dominante parliamo tutti digitaliese in qualche modo e questo significa.", "start": 1467.6901, "end": 1503.395 } ], "start": 1413.4701, "end": 1503.395, "num_words": 191.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Secondo punto molto importante: il potere si è sempre da sempre da sempre da quando lo conosciamo dai tempi più antichi strutturato come quella che noi definiamo oggi una piattaforma.", "start": 1504.975, "end": 1518.27 }, { "text": "Cioè il potere vede assieme convergere tutta una serie innanzitutto di informazioni e di attività di elaborazione in queste informazioni.", "start": 1518.73, "end": 1529.985 }, { "text": "Stiamo parlando dei Sumeri, degli Egizi, dell'Impero Romano o ovviamente successivamente delle dei vari Imperi che si sono succeduti, c'è un concetto di piattaforma.", "start": 1530.2051, "end": 1542.0651 }, { "text": "Quindi là quando noi ce la pidiamo con I cosiddetti con I cattivoni del GAFAM Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple e Microsoft come piattaforme e anche l'Unione Europea ovviamente queste queste piattaforme che sono cattivissime.", "start": 1542.99, "end": 1557.5349 }, { "text": "È lo stato che è una piattaforma e quindi è una forma naturale di struttura di modo con il quale il potere si struttura.", "start": 1557.5349, "end": 1567.775 } ], "start": 1504.975, "end": 1567.775, "num_words": 132.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Il terzo punto nel libro di Stefan Grumbak è che nella sua prospettiva ci sono imperi digitali e colonie digitali e dice in maniera molto mhmm Stefangrubac è qualcuno che è vissuto 15 anni in Cina, una moglie cinese, insomma parla correntemente cinese, quindi voglio dire uno che grande competenza nel rapporti Europa Cina dice guardate ci sono imperi imperi digitali, Stati Uniti e Cina e poi ci sono colonie digitali e l'Europa è una colonia digitale.", "start": 1567.775, "end": 1600.9099 }, { "text": "Credo che sia delle tesi che io vi ho sintetizzato in maniera come dire molto dozzinale ma che meritano di essere sulle quali riflettere.", "start": 1601.13, "end": 1610.9099 } ], "start": 1567.775, "end": 1610.9099, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie, grazie a Vincenzo Zenozenkovic e vi diamo appuntamento al prossimo incontro di Tecnopolicy.", "start": 1611.0499, "end": 1619.6849 }, { "text": "Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "start": 1620.065, "end": 1626.8142 } ], "start": 1611.0499, "end": 1626.8142, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], 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