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            "transcript": "On this episode, the municipal equation is all coming from a good place. I think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion. So a lot of what we talk about in a sort of wise cities perspective is actually decentering technology. Listeners to this podcast know about the smart cities movement. Now let's talk about wise cities. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change. From the North Carolina League for municipalities, episode 43. Last month, Laura Bliss at CityLab wrote a piece titled, When a Tech Giant Plays Waterfront Developer. The story begins at the massive Consumer Electronics Show, or CES, in Las Vegas. The annual mega gathering of the tech world, which starts in Las Vegas on Tuesday, was once a parade of TV screens, smartphones, and other personal electronics. But CES's dazzling displays have increasingly focused on cities themselves and the profit potential they present to technology companies. The question, as always, is where that leaves people who live in them. We often see or hear or read words from urban tech gurus about how we need to unleash the power of smart city technology or the Internet of things in our cities. Unleash is a word I see a lot. It implies an eagerness to seize upon actual obtainable technologies, systems and processes that we can roll out right now to better understand our cities and create a new unprecedented level of connectivity and analysis. Talking like that commands inspirational music and motivational tones of voice, but it also kind of makes some people nervous. Not to mischaracterize what any of these urban tech gurus are saying ultimately, because there's a lot of smart people working on this stuff, but that nervousness or hesitancy is in another form, a growing and reasoned criticism of smart cities. Whenever it's in the context of a possible runway conversation that's more project oriented or tech leadership oriented than a methodical thought process that focuses on what's best for everyday people. Of course, everyday people really actually means a hugely diverse, nearly unharnessable spread of personalities, preferences, lifestyles, priorities, backgrounds, futures. You know what I mean? You might say, well, what we're doing as a smart city is collecting way better data about what's happening in our towns and using that data for better resource management and efficiencies. Obviously, our residents benefit from that. It saves the city money. It saves the people money. And the data we collect let us better understand them and what they need, so we can make their town a better fit for them. Someone on the other end, however, might say, what residence do you mean? Because again, a hugely diverse, nearly unharnessable spread of personalities, preferences, lifestyles, priorities, backgrounds, futures. You know what I mean? How are these smart city practices and data gathering technologies assuring us that they're inclusive of that variety? So that's just a basic example of thinking and maybe a false dichotomy or an oversimplification. And I'm in no way criticizing or tearing down any of the work going on in government like this. We've highlighted on this podcast some really cool uses and practices with smart city technology. Like how the town of Cary in North Carolina is using its own government campus as a test kitchen and making tech vendors prove the worth of their smart city products before the town invests or rolls them out to the greater public space. Notice I didn't say unleash. And I'm not at all pulling back on any of the conversations we've had on this podcast about smart cities, primarily because they've been highly educational, giving us a good understanding of what a smart city is and what the conversations are and what the conventions are. Smart cities one zero one, and then some more advanced talk about what we're seeing out there today in the context of urban IoT and smart cities. That's important to know for cities of all sizes. But I do want to highlight the conversation about caution. As we observe growth in smart city pursuits and operations on the ground, we're seeing a lot of people saying it's time to zoom out, do the aerial photo, and look at the track we're on. Where is it going? And what's it mean for everyday people? Let's replay a quick line from episode 38 when we talk with Qasem Shepherd, author of the book City Makers. I think too much of the way in which we kind of think technology will will save us and all of our problems really relies on a on a dogma of the the culture of disruption and that technology will enable us to shortcut through complicated bureaucratic, regulatory hurdles, when in fact, I think the greater promise of information technology in the urban sphere is not to shortcut government or disrupt it, but rather to make the complexity of urban processes, particularly at the local government level, more legible to citizens so that they can more meaningfully participate. Sometimes it doesn't mean participate online, but just means explaining the process so that they have the tools and the knowledge necessary to communicate in traditional democratic participation, whether whether that's community meetings or just voting. Ironically, communications technology was not serving us well that day, so sorry for the glitchy phone signal there. But anyway, he went on to raise a lot of questions about smart cities, and what the public and private sectors are doing to create them, and where that leaves the people. And I've been reading more and more about that conversation. This conversation full of questions about the wisdom and inclusion of civic technology and smart cities. And it was around that time I ran across Daniel LaTore of Brooklyn, New York in a hashtag that he uses on Twitter. Hashtag wise cities. And in his Twitter bio was a website, thewisecity.org. On it is the sentence, let's move away from the outdated twentieth century ideas of a technocratic smart city. So for all we've talked about smart cities on this podcast, I had to reach out to him to explore that. And, coincidentally, he was visiting family essentially right down the road from my office. So he came by. Okay. And that sounds pretty good where you are right now. So, got it rolling right now. Everything sounds good. All right. Let's go. My name is Daniel LaTore and I'm the founder of a consulting practice called the Wise City. And I am also cofounder of the Digital Placemaking Institute and a senior fellow for digital placemaking at Project for Public Spaces, which is a nonprofit dedicated to the practice of placemaking. What do you mean by wise cities? And what's the difference between a wise city and any other kind of city or a smart city or a human city or or what is it? Yeah. Well, you know, this is that question, you know, about is also what is smart and what is wise. And, you know, one of the things I think just to acknowledge here, sort of to drop some knowledge bombs, is that that's a general dilemma in our, you know, planet as a whole is, you know, the difference between smart and and and and wise. So, we've lost touch with wisdom. You know, it's been critiqued, you know, within philosophy and politics because historically, there's been lots of corruption about sort of blind following of elders or leaders. But, we live in a different age now. There's much transparency in all new forms of governance that can allow checks and balances. So we haven't yet picked up the question again of, so what is, like, twenty first century wisdom? And I think the question that more and more people are starting to have right now is maybe the way we've been defining smart actually isn't smart, and there's a growing concern. So this past week, there was this big controversy where Elon Musk referred to sustainable transportation policies and essentially one of the leading voices of it as an idiot, and that created a huge storm in social media. And now, pretty much every urban planning or city sustainability focused voice and blog is is talking about this. So that's just a setup as a way to kind of talk about just where are we right now at the 2017. So the short answer is on on, wisdom, is that it's about compassion, you know, and that's a very different thing than knowledge, which is what I think SMART generally revolves around is information or knowledge. Right? So we have information technology. We are in a knowledge economy, as some people say. But wisdom is would say, well, what about what does a compassionate economy look like, or what does a compassionate city look like? Is there anything you see in the rollout or in the urban context, plans that, have kind of or policies or approaches that have kind of, you know, gained speed in the past few years that give you pause and and kinda get you to think about this more? I mean, what what's kind of the origin of this for you? Well, so my background's in technology. So I I came up with the web. I, sort of joined the Internet circus back in the mid nineties and worked at some of the very first digital consulting firms, in New York. So you remember Altavista and Oh, yeah. Before Altavista. Bulletin board system way back when. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as a kid, you know, I started off with, like, a big 20 on, you know, writing my own video games in basic, you know, from, like, the magazines and things like this, and recording saving my my data on a cassette deck, you know, external drive. I remember this. Yeah. So before floppy disks were invented. So I'm dating myself here, to to that gives you a picture of where I was when I was around, I don't know, 10 to 12 years old or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And my uncle, at that you know, was a programmer at the time, you know, and and so I had some contact with sort of that generation. And then another uncle through marriage, was also in programming and IT management and, was there involved in networking at the very, you know, pre and at the beginning of the internet. Mhmm. Sorry, of the of the web. Right. So I had some of those sort of, people in my life. Anyways, so twenty years in technology in digital consulting, branding, marketing, and then, some start up activity, mobile games, platform video games. I worked at Rockstar Video Games on, the, basically, the production design, the sort of Okay. Kinda created a position for myself on the cultural layer that Rockstar Games is so, good at at adding all the sort of cultural flavor and commentary in their games. What what, to set some context there, like, what what were some of the titles that people might know? Yeah. The main one was, in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. Yeah. Yeah. So I worked on a lot of the, production design stuff for that and kind of, we had a small team that we kind of built out there. And, so I've the point is I've I've had, you know, I've my hands in a bunch of these different contemporary technologies Yeah. Mobile, web, interactive TV, which comes and goes. And we survived all the hype of early VR hype around VRML back in the late 90s, which that keeps coming and going as well, the VR immersive stuff. And we're now right in the middle of another bubble around VR. So, you know, and when I was younger in my 20s and early 30s, I was like technology is the future and everything's great, right? And there was in those early days since it was all new, there was so much naive awareness because it was novel. You know? It was just new stuff, uncharted territory seemingly. And, but then, you know, the bubble crashed, right, in 2000. And so that's when a lot of, of course, everyone said, well, wait a minute. What's going on here? What about the economic factors involved in this and the speculation? And, you know, as it became more successful, it also became more corporate. And, that then introduced other motives. You know, so once a company went public, all of a sudden, the consulting firm, Razorfish, that I was working at, basically only wanted to work for Fortune 500 companies. Right? And but before that, we had the latitude and there was a desire to work with all sorts of innovative and creative companies and with an eye more towards innovative, sort of world changing sorts of projects. But once you sort of, go public, you're all of a sudden you're sort of beholden to, you know, other concerns. Yeah. So, that gave me pause. And then nineeleven happened. And on the night of nineeleven after that, so I'm in my apartment in New York, and where basically the smoke was nonstop for a month. You know? So all of us, as we'd leave your apartment, we had to, like, tape our windows Wow. To keep the smoke out of the apartment. And it was toxic or who knows what was in that smoke. Right? It was, everything below Fourteenth Street was a sort of military national guard slash police controlled area for like two weeks. Right. So you had to show your ID if you wanted if you show that you lived in that area in order to get below it. So, that woke me up in general and just said like, Hey, I'm here on this planet to do something good. Like a friend of mine who, Robert DeRaney, who passed, he was at breakfast at Windows on the World, early that morning. Early achiever, millionaire by 35. You know? So all of the sort of standard definitions of success, plus he was a really nice Lebanese American guy Yeah. Who who had no chance of escape. Right? And he was a great guy, and everyone knew that he was a really great guy to his friends and family. And so that kind of what went through my head was, well, what if I was having breakfast with him as I'd been wanting to catch up with him? Yeah. And what would people say about me? And all my digital consulting work is innovative as it was for financial companies and beauty companies and entertainment companies. I'm like, does that really matter? You know? So I had this kind of, like, not that there's anything wrong with it, but just for me. We all have to come up with our own answer, you know, of what are you here for? What's your purpose? And there are a million answers as there are, you know, people. So for me, I was just like I need to make sure that I leave the planet better than I found it in a fairly concrete or demonstrable way. And all of the technology hype that I've been involved in was something that I started to question because there was so much unquestioning and unthinking, sort of blind, you know, just following along with that energy in the technology space that I knew there has to be a better way. So I started to think about how can I apply all of these technology skills that I have towards the environmental, movement or towards education? So that that's that's kind of was the moment of change. And then finally, when all the bike lanes were added into New York City, so it was just you know, thermoplast paint on the street. And that changed. I loved bicycling since a kid, since I was a child. Right. And being able to basically safely bike in the city by just a simple change of the paint on the street, I had this sort of moment where all of a sudden I pause on my bike. And I said, wait a minute. This is interface change. So my day job or my you know, the work that I was doing is all about changing how screens on, you know, laptops and and desktops were back then, because it was before the smartphone, affected people's behavior. And then, all of a sudden, here it was, my whole life, my whole sense of being was made safer, And the city, all of a sudden, felt more enjoyable and and relatable, because of this human scale shift to creating space for biking. And then I was like, I want to get involved in this. That was my moment. It was like, so then I immersed myself in essentially urban design and urban planning and, and then there's there's a sort of pivot in my career from that moment on that bike lane. The first iPhone really came out relatively just like, you know, a handful of years ago, but it that that feels like the starting point for a lot of us. What I do on my phone, this is what I do with technology, and that was kinda like that was chapter one. But moving as quickly as it is and with cities trying to figure out, you know, what are we going to accommodate? What do we do with this technology? We will kinda we we wanna make life better for our citizens. We wanna lead the way. We want to integrate technology and capture more data and understand how our city behaves. And do you see us going too quickly? Do you see us having to hit the the time out button, and kinda think about where this is all headed, in terms of who it benefits, where it goes? I mean, what are your thoughts? So, firstly, I I just wanna say that it's there's there is no time out button. Mhmm. And and a lot of people confuse being reflective with slowing down. And for those people, so if you're in a conversation and you're wanting to have a more considered investigation of a policy decision or financial decision with a city, what I would say you should ask those people who want to rush, rush, rush is to ask them this, which is if it's really important that we get the question right, so we get the answer right and the question right, then it doesn't necessarily matter how fast we go about it because the consequences and the importance of getting it right really matter. Another way to put it is to ask the question of what direction we're going in. So there is so much well intentioned desire to improve things, but if you're going in the wrong direction, speeding up is the worst thing to do. At bottom of it, it's all coming from a good place. I think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion. So a lot of what we talk about in a wise city's perspective is actually de centering technology, in the same way that you wouldn't want it to be completely dominated by fiscal concerns, right? Because there are public health and social and education and safety concerns that aren't necessarily determined by financial factors. Right. And conversely, you wouldn't want everything to be centered around crime and safety because there's a lot of other aspects of city life that are not just police concerns. So the the wiser approach is to say, hey, there's all these different contributions that all sort of sectors of society can contribute. And technology is a very powerful, if anything, dangerously over powerful thing that we need to use very judiciously because it's so powerful. We should be wary of the sort of over excitement about good intentions because if they're not examined deeply and wisely and with enough people at the table, you're probably gonna make a mistake. You know? You're probably gonna sink a lot of money, time, goodwill. So what would you say, because there is a feeling out there that, you know, if we don't kinda keep up, and I put keep up in quotes Yeah. Then we could be left behind. And Yeah. This city over here is doing amazing things with technology, and they're efficient, and they're saving money, and and we wanna be there. We wanna be in on that and part of that, but also having to balance that you know, having that caution. We gotta be careful with the money we spend. We can't just jump into decisions and new technologies without really having a full understanding. What do you think should be on the checklist of a city who wants to explore and improve, but also keep these other considerations in mind that that you've mentioned? Yeah. So one of the things that I think is is a good way to to think about it is there are areas of efficiency that are sort of the low hanging fruit. Mhmm. Right? So there are aspects of your city government or region that are widely known to be good services and benefits. Start there. Start with what you have. Appreciate the good things that you're doing, and look for ways to make that more efficient or more transparent and more visible, especially things that can build trust. So one of the, a lot of people will answer this question I think maybe in a similar way, talking about the value of of, open government and open data and transparency. Mhmm. And I gotta say, I've actually and I've I've been a supporter of that, and I remain so. But the one thing that has become clear is that it's been so narrowly defined that it's, I think, becoming a problem because the issues in our cities are so much more than just, about a lack of openness, which inherently positions everything as a in a sort of punitive manner. Right? Like, there's a giant myth, you know, that government is a problem. Right? Right. And this has been going on and being talked about for decades. But the bigger question is, and I would say the wiser question is, how do we build trust between each other? How do we all live together? Right? And that's a deeper question. So that If you think about that as your one of your starting points or one of your input questions, then you're going to make different technology decisions. You're going to think about different aspects of your city budget and services of where to go and expend any of the sort of tech magic Right. Or so called tech magic on it. Now so, you know, so that's that there's a sort of stack. Right? Like, there's these sort of very basic services that are easier to think about as making more efficient as being unquestionable good. But there's one caution to consider in that, which is even if it's something like, say, water quality monitoring, right? Which is humans need water. It's pretty hard to have humanity without water. But then this comes up with a question of, well, if you're gonna be adding in technology solutions into the water delivery and water monitoring, the question goes back to the proprietariness, right? So if you're going to be doing that, how much are you getting in bed into contracts that are binding you to a specific company Right. Right? To Siemens or Cisco or Microsoft or IBM or whoever it is or Google. And what are the terms? And who's setting those terms? And do you have the right legal advice and, you know, looking in on this and all the ethical concerns with who has oversight and access to that data. So one cautionary tale, about that is the city of Sydney in Australia. So I was just doing hanging out in Australia for nine months. And the city of Sydney launched a deal to have their transit system switched to tap and go payment cards when you enter the metro and the bus. And in the initial deal that they stroke with this private company was the private company kept all the ridership data. So when the transportation officials went to say, let's look at all this great origin and destination information. They couldn't because they didn't own and have access to the data. So it's like, What's it worth to you now? Yeah. So now luckily, that issue was seen as such an oversight Mhmm. That they renegotiated the deal saying, Hey, we didn't really mean that and that was never our intention. And so, they basically redefined the terms of the contract and they got the data. But you know, there were legal fees involved and time and political capital that was lost, and, there were a number of different costs that happened as a result of that. So the question is, don't do what those city officials in Sydney did. Learn from their mistake. Yeah. I mean, do do you see other kind of examples out there of, this hasn't worked out quite as well as we thought when we were walking into it? Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of those, actually. You know? You have all these planned cities. There's so many examples on the large scale from the greenfield development of building cities, planned communities, idealistic communities from a technology perspective Mhmm. Or a business perspective or what have you. But the one thing they have in common is they all were very narrowly defined and had very few people involved in the decision making. Right. It was very top down, and that just sets you up for failure. You know? So that's one, I would say, general pattern to think about. So if you're in some very ambitious project and the people around most the tables making all these decisions do not look like the community Mhmm. Who you're serving, you're probably you have a higher chance of failure. If just it's only a handful of people, you know, and one company, and you don't have good legal representation, you're probably setting yourself up for some major problems or being taken advantage of. So, it goes back to that, which is this question of sort of pluralism or just cities are so are are one of the most magical, complex things that humans do. And you need everybody, you know, sort of as Jane Jacobs talked about it, you need everybody involved in the making of it, in order to make it, you know, suitable for everybody. Right. And that that there's a, it sounds really simple, but as a principle, if you think about that, that can help steer away from a lot of problems. Alright. So at this point, we were really just kind of warming up, you know, still kind of getting to it, to the takeaways. We talked for a long time, a a good couple hours, so I'm trying to bring out the most direct points that Daniel raised while also giving it a good amount of setup. In a recent episode, I I think I mentioned that project in Toronto, an Internet focused development on the waterfront that that is planned to be. Involves Sidewalk Labs, which is part of Alphabet, which is the parent company of Google. So it's supposed to be a place of living and business served by all of these tech efficiencies. And I'll refer back to that Laura Bliss, CityLab article because it goes into it. And so does another piece I'll link to in the show notes, that was posted on Medium. It seems to throw a lot of questions at the process of what should be a big civic achievement that heavily involves private parties. You could say the same about any private development or subdivision, but this one has a heavy focus on technologies that people will ideally use in their daily lives with tons of data being gathered to analyze it all. It could be awesome. I have no personal reason to think it won't be. I'm just pointing to some of the skepticism about the heavy involvement of private tech companies in shaping something build as being so influential on the public space. I don't know. Let me know if I'm wrong about that. The description of the project says it's using, quote, forward thinking urban design and new digital technology to create people centered neighborhoods that achieve precedent setting levels of sustainability, affordability, mobility, and economic opportunity. Waterfront Toronto was a partner and it's a government entity. I guess this is just a way of saying that plans to develop new techie neighborhoods, places of living with giant tech companies will probably be met with questions about how people centered it's really going to be. Again, just pointing it out and doing so may be good for the process, one might say. And what we'll get to here shortly is a list, a takeaway list of questions that any city manager or urban planner or project official or whoever can ask in the interest of the human centralization piece of smart city projects, or really any civic tech initiative. Real quick though, one point that Daniel made that stood out had to do with the movements we're seeing like Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement. Maybe particularly the Me Too movement, meaning there's this issue between technology and consent. And the elevated public interest in these issues and conversations about consent and human impact and of equity and inclusion could amplify those sentiments as they may relate to technology and, for example, data gathering sensors. And this is kind of, you know, kind of become becoming increasingly, apparent in this question of technology and in the growing new movement around civil rights between the issues that people who are facing with black lives, the Black Lives Matters movement, and the Me Too or the, you know, the new movement against sexual violence Right. And discrimination and sexism, and the tremendous energy that's going around that. One of the things that it connects to this whole smart city dimension and the technology question is a lot of these technology deals are involving terms and conditions that are really nonconsensual. Mhmm. You know? So if you think about your Facebook and your social media and the things that are being done with your data, right? Now, yes, technically, you hit agree and you sign to those terms and conditions. Sure. But if you read every term and condition, yeah. But they aren't really being presented to you as an option. You can't revoke those. You can't opt out. It's kind of all or nothing in most cases. Right. So in general, especially in The United States, it brings up this big question of consent. And so there's a sort of, I think, another case where having bringing in the question of wisdom of how do we wisely make sure that we're increasing consent. Consent as a general governing principle is I think what the Me too movement you know, that's been ten years in the making now, but really kind of has just exploded this year, is offering to the sort of raising this larger question about consent in general, not just between, relating to sexual violence and harassment Yeah. But relating to the body and the skin of the city. You know, how do we create a consensual city where everyone's rights are respected? You know, there's been a lot of heady, you know, conversation. Right? We were talking about all these big picture ideas, and Mhmm. And that's part of part of wisdom is having an enlarged sense of your connection to everything. Mhmm. That's part of, I think, where, one of the aspects of compassion is it's not just about me, you know? It's about you and everyone else. Everything. And not just humans, but all of life on this planet. Right? So that's big. Right? That's heady and that's also abstract. So a lot of people may be saying, you know, who cares about, you know, this idealistic talk. Right. Now that's, of course, where policy comes from. Right? This is the sort of frameworks. So just to bring it down home, policy is that broker, you know, that puts in practical terms these big principles and actually makes them possible to come down to be turned into laws and regulations and ethical conduct, social codes, and things like this. So what I what I think would what I would wanna do is say, like, I here's some there's some questions that you could ask right now about the projects, that you're considering or you're working on or maybe, you know, from a post mortem standpoint Yeah. You know, a project that maybe you just did. So So so a city manager or a planner or somebody like that, these are things that they could run through. Yeah. Yeah. So let's let's let's let's kinda do something. It's like wherever you are right now listening to this, you can, think about a project that you're that you're doing or about to do or have done. So let's go through these questions and just think, you know, first thought, best thought, whatever comes to mind. And, of course, you can think about these longer. But even just right now in the course of this, let's go through a handful of questions. So question number one. Mhmm. What is the problem to which this technology is a solution? So right there, that that could, you know, that could take you could take your team and spend an hour with that question. Absolutely. Question number two, whose problem is it? K? Mhmm. Question number three, which people and what institutions might be most seriously harmed by a technology solution? I mean, right there, you know, is again, this is the thing is sometimes you you solve one thing in in one place, but then all of a sudden it creates another problem. Right. These are what we call, you know, secondary effects. And there's a lot of research on this. And actually, there's a lot of research in media studies and communication studies and anthropology and science and technology studies and sociology and anthropology on the impacts of technology. The unintend quote unquote unintended but very well researched and quite well documented existing known effects of different types of societal changes or technologies and or even potentially ways to help you detect things that are truly unknown. But you could at least get hunches to say, well, we expect that it's gonna this disruption here is gonna create a new problematic disruption over there. Right. Now I could ask for an example, but I mean, I think any of us could just fill in the blank with 20 things right now, you know? Yeah. I mean, my my my head is short circuiting right now with different examples of of this. You know, you think about well, here's a positive example. Sure. Right? So the smartphone in many ways has revived radio. So the reason why we're doing a podcast and people are listening to it and a lot of people, especially those of us that are Gen X and millennial, we probably haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times Right. Or not that often. I used to work in radio and haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, there's, you know, there's a shrinkage. Like, in in journalism across the board, there's been a contraction. But when when it comes to audio, the smartphone has been what has driven this complete renaissance that we're seeing now in basically sort of this sort of campfire, like, huddling around the fire and having conversations that are what I find about what I like about podcasts is you end up having much deeper information sharing than on broadcast television or or your typical, you know, news radio. Question number five. What sort of people and institutions might acquire special economic and political power because of a technological change? So that's that's related. Yeah. You know, kind of bringing more specific focusing to the to the matter. Again, these five questions right here, you can take a lot of time thinking about them. Question six. What changes in language are being enforced by new technologies and what is being gained and lost by such changes? So initially, you may say, well, what does that have to do with, you know, that's a language. How significant can that be? You know, in a lot of the sort of, positives, you know, social good, technology conversations, you know, you hear people talking about us living. We're now in a data centric society. Well, if you say that our current society is data centric, then that means there are other things that are not at the center that are that you're pushing away. So you're pushing one thing into the center of focus with to the exclusion of other things. Question seven. So with this project that you have in mind or that you've done, is it contextual to the place? So think about the people, the neighborhood, the location of it, if it if it's spatial, or the general benefit of of who it's serving. How relatable is it to the people that you're trying to help? Gotcha. This is that's this is one of the biggest missteps that so many projects take is they take a generic solution or maybe a solution that worked elsewhere, and they don't adapt it or really make it relevant to the local place and people. That's even with the dissemination of information and and how we get how government gets information out there, the challenge of of putting something out there that's culturally resonant, that speaks the right language, that that, creates a visualization the right way, that someone can relate to, otherwise or so it's not a blur and so it's not a fog. And so it doesn't, you know, just perpetuate this whole thing of government being something behind closed doors that I don't necessarily feel like I have access to. Yeah. I mean, and this is the thing where it really also, helps bridge a lot of political divide because pretty much, you know, you get a lot of support for being more local. You know, regardless of which political, position you have. Mhmm. And and there are benefits, to that across the spectrum. And and this is the one thing that we see in place making is that, you know, when you make it more connected to the place and people, it becomes more meaningful. And then that is also what then attracts more attachment and that means cultural value and economic value Mhmm. To why should I go visit your town? Why should I pull off, you know, and make a trip or take a spontaneous pause to go into this town or that town? Yeah. Or even making it become a destination where that's my goal of my trip is to come and visit this place or that place for any conversely, for you to come where I live. Right. Right? If if we all kind of supply, provide these generic solutions, and And this is the trapping. A lot of technology is very generic. You know, a lot of these technology solutions are designed to be as mass usable as possible. So they're almost not thinking about local adaptation and local customization. Right. So that's a big, sort of, yeah, sticking point with a lot of the sort of techno, centered, kind of techno blind, thinking. Question number eight, are local people collaborating in making and using it? So if you think about your project, you know, to what degree did you involve local people in the creation of it, or to what degree are they actually using it? Now that one, I think, to some degree, a lot of people think about whenever a new thing is launched in a city, you wanna say, hey. Are people using it? Do they like it? Are they valuing it? So most politicians and elected officials and their appointees, are often thinking about that a lot. I would say that here's the twist is if you involve more people in the conception of it or in the making of it or in the envisioning of it, then you'll get more people using it. Right. Because it'll be course corrected and and then you also have a higher chance of making it more local. Question nine, does it support a human scale relationship or interaction? So if you think about your project, you know, what we mean by human scale is that sense of, encouraging, you know, more face to face interaction with people. So one of the things that, you know, that I recommend is that, let's say, you are evaluating proposals from your local innovation hub or, you know, eager beaver, you know, do gooders. Yeah. And they have a solution, but no one's involved in really collaborating. And it's just the two guys who are recommending it. Right. And, whatever that solution does, is something that, only very few people can access. Or let's say the solution is on a mobile phone. So it's a new app for your city. Okay. Well, a mobile phone inherently is a a personal individualistic experience. It's you looking down at your screen. And sure, you can chat or message, but there's something very different than, let's say, if you added an urban screen or like a large, you know, projection screen in a in a community plaza or in the central park of your town. Mhmm. And then you had something that was a shared experience, you know? That is a human scale. That's increasing the human scale relationship. Mhmm. So this is a thing where sometimes, you know, a lot of people say, well, everything should just be on a mobile phone. It's so efficient. Well, but that isn't always the only outcome or the only, you know, variable that you should be concerned with. So that's that's a that's that one there, you can again, the human scale relationship thing is another trap that a lot of people have, they they ignore or they don't pay attention to. Right. And they miss out on a lot of benefit. So sometimes that means with the same budget and the same duration that you spend on a project, if you think about increasing the human scale relationship outcomes of that project, you can often, depending on what it is, get a much bigger return on your time and investment. Question 10, does it increase face to face interaction? Question, 11 is to what degree is the project open source? Now that one's a tricky one. Yeah. And and what does open source mean to you? So open source, there's a bunch of different definitions, and there are so many other podcasts that get into the open source movement, but I would just refer people to go read up on it. But the short answer is just is it open? Is the code of your software are you using or what I mean by it here is are you contributing to or using or making your code open? Now there are many different ways to go about this. And so I'm not I don't I really don't like to be prescriptive. And that's why a lot of these questions are sort of they're more like guidelines and principles. But, you know, if you're using public money to provide a public benefit, there's a really good argument to say that you should use, and contribute to or offer open source software solutions because then other cities in your or institutions in your own city, in your region, in your state, in your country, in the planet, you know, could potentially take advantage of this, and there's some benefit to that. Now, conversely, depending on what you're doing, you know, when it comes to data Yeah. Just as a caution, is open data is not so simple. There's so many issues about privacy and, you know, again, back to this goes back to the question of consent Right. Where when it comes to the data side of things, there's a whole host of considerations you need to make for anonymizing and protecting potentially identifiable information. Right. And again, there's a lot of material online about this. So if that's if one of your projects involve the collecting or usage of a lot of, resident data, you should definitely look up that, to help you guide you in a in a wiser direction. There's a lot of open data platforms out there right now too. Yeah. I mean, there that's sort of very a matured aspect of this overall kind of, tech and, you know, civic movement. Right. That's that's kind of their their many wise voices have joined in on on course correcting what's been happening there. So quest so the next question is, is there capacity building? So in your project that you're thinking about in your head, you know, that you've just done or that you're doing, is to what degree is that project helping to demonstrate, model, or build the capacity of the people who are involved in making it or and or the people who are involved in using it? So you're helping elevate, the discussion, the inclusion, the intelligence, the wisdom, etcetera Yeah. Of it. And that so that's another way to think about it, that again, it's kind of like initially may you may think, well, you know, how does that relate? Why should I care about that? Or why should I how should I relate to that? But if you're trying to change the practices in your institution, in your department, if you're looking to help create new policies or culture in your city when it comes to things like environment or education, or public health, you do wanna think about the capacity for adopting new changes in practices. And so in one way is I would say this is one of the most important questions because in the twenty first century, you know, like we started, you know, there are so many, changes that we need to make in order to come to a sustainable, equitable life where we can all live together and figure out how to live together in a equitable, sustainable way. So, so much of that is about capacity building to transform and change. And two more questions here. So, is it connecting, to existing community goals? So again, this is part of that, like, you know, the good intentions, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Mhmm. Your your well intended excellent project that may have a great outcome may be isolated from the existing goals of the community. Sure. So this goes back to, you know, our people, who's at the table, and who's involved in collaborating and making it. So and I intentionally left this sort of in there twice because it's asking the same question from two different angles because it's really important to get that right. So if you missed out the first one, if you're like, screw it. We're not gonna have local people collaborating in it, making it, and using it. Right. Well, if you say is it connected to existing goals, which again may relate to your electoral success or your, general, you know, review and performance review assessment Right. You know, of your, responsibilities in in city governance. That's another way to kinda keep you on the right track. And then here's the last one. And and this one is I mean, these are all very important, but this last one is another gotcha that so many people drop. And then it diminishes or ends up being a big failure point, which is, again, for the so for the project that you're thinking about doing, especially if you're a next project or the one that currently is in play, is how well is ongoing iteration planned for and supported. So especially with technology, and but with a lot of other things, is you can get all excited about launching. And if you don't have the maintenance and the budget and the prioritization to say, well, we have to fix the bugs and make improvements based on feedback from the users or in the park if we need to change the seating arrangement around or in the city street grid, you know, if we need to change the signaling and what have you. You know, there's there's it's a constant living thing. You know, cities cities are people. And so, therefore, cities are always growing and changing and living and moving. And, it's not just about the launch. And so a lot of the tech hype, basically just kind of raises this silver bullet thing where people think that technology is the object. Right. It's the software or it's the hardware. It's it's not really. 90% of quote unquote technology is the practices. That's right. It's the shift of the practices within the the different ways that we govern and relate to each other and to the way that we communicate. And that's that's it's one of the most difficult things for people to understand because so many other things that we're familiar with, in the sort of pre technology sort of city governance were about objects. It was about the hardware object and that's is it is what it is. It's just that physical thing. But the nature of digital technology, and this goes into a whole other direction, that is a big part of my work, which is the sort of media studies, the communication studies, just basically bringing in and elevating and capacity building for folks in cities to get them to understand what is really the nature of digital which is inherently immaterial. It's it's a process. You know, technology is process Right. More so than the object. You know? And, that that just opens up a whole other way of looking at governance and management and responsibility and stewardship. And again, this is another area where, you know, we need more academics and the the educating institutions, need to jump in on this because it's such a different paradigm than the way economics has been standardly, you know, normally defined, and governance. Although on one on one level, I I find increasingly policy folks and governance folks are once you start explaining it to people in this way, if they aren't already on it, they get process because so much of governance from the policy making perspective is all about the process. And the software people, the really savvy user centered design, civic design folks, they also get this. So in the whole sort of innovation on service design that's going on in in The US and in other places, they all get this as well. And that's that's really, I think, right now is one of the areas of innovation is, shifting this more process and service model of looking at what do we mean by innovation. You know, innovation is not a thing. It's about looking at doing things differently. So that means process. Right. Yeah. You're right. I mean, the innovation is the invention in a lot of cases in terms of perspective and how people look at it. And this is the milestone like, bam, here it is right here. Yeah. We've achieved innovation. Yeah. But I mean, even even with that, you know, so, like, when the radio was invented, right, the the the significance of radio was not the invention of the vacuum tubes and the device. It was how people change their communication practices and their daily living in listening to and the broadcasters and journalists in learning how to communicate on radio and the way that then people got their information and socially participated by sitting around the radio or and then it evolved into in the car, you know, it changed the process and the way that we related and communicated. That's radio, you know, it isn't just about the object. Right. What we what we really value about radio is the different way it changed our relationship to each other and information. And now we podcast. Bringing it back. Where, where can people learn more about you and the the work you do? Well, right now, the the best way really is Twitter. So I'm, at Dan Latore, and you can, find me there. You know, this space is changing so fast and evolving so quickly that, and and globally that Twitter pretty much, in in my observation and experience, is it's that's the best way to keep abreast of all of this. Yeah. So That's what John do. Yeah. Hashtag wise cities, placemaking, and and there's all sort of a lot of hashtags you can follow. So if you kinda jump in on the tweet streams, you can dive in and, swim along. And we so for those of you that are really, you know, wanting more of this, we need more conversation in this space, you know. So, I would want more and more people talking about this and getting in in at raising questions about this. So hit me up with any questions, and, or examples too. Those are the two things I'm looking to collect. So the organizations or the kind of the work that I'm focusing on right now is, the articulating of digital place making. Right. So this is basically place making in the twenty first century, you know. And and really, you know, we're only talking about digital this, digital that because we're in transition, you know. But, you know, in in whatever, five years or ten years, we won't be thinking about digital this or digital that. It'll just be governance. Right. It'll just be communication. Just like, you know, twenty years ago, people didn't go around and say, well, I'm gonna write a book about paper governance. You know, even though most of all the governance, the tool that was used was paper. Yeah. It was expressed on printed law books and case, you know, log studies and and newspapers and legal journals. So the technology that was used was print and on paper, but no one said I'm I'm an expert, you know, or I'm studying paper governance, you know. So it was just governance. Mhmm. So, but we're in a transition stage right now. So we're very conscious of this shift of tech of technology from paper to digital. So it's a useful term to kinda just signal that we're, we're changing and we're intentionally working on making a, what I would say is a wise transition. To this, to the, all these new technologies. Daniel really appreciate this. It's been awesome. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening. I'll have links to Daniel LaTore and his work in case you'd like to learn more in the show notes with this episode at soundcloud.com/municipalequation. So this, as Daniel said, was more of a heady thought process kind of episode, but I'm glad we included that list of questions that you can ask in this wise city kind of spirit. By the way, I'll have a link to Daniel's Twitter page and pinned at the top of it is that entire list written out so you can use it, share it, whatever. So what are your thoughts as we go through this big revolution of smart cities, which has so many angles and applications that it's hard to encapsulate sometimes, but absolutely often well intentioned as Daniel said. So what are you thinking right now? Let me know. Record a voice memo on your smartphone and email it to me. I'm at bbrown@nclm.org. If you don't wanna talk aloud, just type it out, and I'll include it on a future episode. It's all about feedback and conversation and exploring different ideas in the space of cities and towns in the face of change. There's not a one size fits all. If you need more background on this whole smart cities thing, there's a world of information online about it, but you can also simply listen to past episodes of this podcast, like episode 38 and episode 18, soundcloud.com/municipalequation, or nclm.org/municipalequation. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast. Keep in touch, and we'll be back with a new episode in a couple weeks. This is Ben Brown.",
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              "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: On this episode, the municipal equation\n\nSpeaker 1: is all coming from a good place. I think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion. So a lot of what we talk about in a sort of wise cities perspective is actually decentering technology.\n\nSpeaker 0: Listeners to this podcast know about the smart cities movement. Now let's talk about wise cities. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change. From the North Carolina League for municipalities, episode 43. Last month, Laura Bliss at CityLab wrote a piece titled, When a Tech Giant Plays Waterfront Developer.\n\nThe story begins at the massive Consumer Electronics Show, or CES, in Las\n\nSpeaker 2: Vegas. The annual mega gathering of the tech world, which starts in Las Vegas on Tuesday, was once a parade of TV screens, smartphones, and other personal electronics. But CES's dazzling displays have increasingly focused on cities themselves and the profit potential they present to technology companies. The question, as always, is where that leaves people who live in them.\n\nSpeaker 0: We often see or hear or read words from urban tech gurus about how we need to unleash the power of smart city technology or the Internet of things in our cities. Unleash is a word I see a lot. It implies an eagerness to seize upon actual obtainable technologies, systems and processes that we can roll out right now to better understand our cities and create a new unprecedented level of connectivity and analysis. Talking like that commands inspirational music and motivational tones of voice, but it also kind of makes some people nervous. Not to mischaracterize what any of these urban tech gurus are saying ultimately, because there's a lot of smart people working on this stuff, but that nervousness or hesitancy is in another form, a growing and reasoned criticism of smart cities.\n\nWhenever it's in the context of a possible runway conversation that's more project oriented or tech leadership oriented than a methodical thought process that focuses on what's best for everyday people. Of course, everyday people really actually means a hugely diverse, nearly unharnessable spread of personalities, preferences, lifestyles, priorities, backgrounds, futures. You know what I mean? You might say, well, what we're doing as a smart city is collecting way better data about what's happening in our towns and using that data for better resource management and efficiencies. Obviously, our residents benefit from that.\n\nIt saves the city money. It saves the people money. And the data we collect let us better understand them and what they need, so we can make their town a better fit for them. Someone on the other end, however, might say, what residence do you mean? Because again, a hugely diverse, nearly unharnessable spread of personalities, preferences, lifestyles, priorities, backgrounds, futures.\n\nYou know what I mean? How are these smart city practices and data gathering technologies assuring us that they're inclusive of that variety? So that's just a basic example of thinking and maybe a false dichotomy or an oversimplification. And I'm in no way criticizing or tearing down any of the work going on in government like this. We've highlighted on this podcast some really cool uses and practices with smart city technology.\n\nLike how the town of Cary in North Carolina is using its own government campus as a test kitchen and making tech vendors prove the worth of their smart city products before the town invests or rolls them out to the greater public space. Notice I didn't say unleash. And I'm not at all pulling back on any of the conversations we've had on this podcast about smart cities, primarily because they've been highly educational, giving us a good understanding of what a smart city is and what the conversations are and what the conventions are. Smart cities one zero one, and then some more advanced talk about what we're seeing out there today in the context of urban IoT and smart cities. That's important to know for cities of all sizes.\n\nBut I do want to highlight the conversation about caution. As we observe growth in smart city pursuits and operations on the ground, we're seeing a lot of people saying it's time to zoom out, do the aerial photo, and look at the track we're on. Where is it going? And what's it mean for everyday people? Let's replay a quick line from episode 38 when we talk with Qasem Shepherd, author of the book City Makers.\n\nSpeaker 3: I think too much of the way in which we kind of think technology will will save us and all of our problems really relies on a on a dogma of the the culture of disruption and that technology will enable us to shortcut through complicated bureaucratic, regulatory hurdles, when in fact, I think the greater promise of information technology in the urban sphere is not to shortcut government or disrupt it, but rather to make the complexity of urban processes, particularly at the local government level, more legible to citizens so that they can more meaningfully participate. Sometimes it doesn't mean participate online, but just means explaining the process so that they have the tools and the knowledge necessary to communicate in traditional democratic participation, whether whether that's community meetings or just voting.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ironically, communications technology was not serving us well that day, so sorry for the glitchy phone signal there. But anyway, he went on to raise a lot of questions about smart cities, and what the public and private sectors are doing to create them, and where that leaves the people. And I've been reading more and more about that conversation. This conversation full of questions about the wisdom and inclusion of civic technology and smart cities. And it was around that time I ran across Daniel LaTore of Brooklyn, New York in a hashtag that he uses on Twitter.\n\nHashtag wise cities. And in his Twitter bio was a website, thewisecity.org. On it is the sentence, let's move away from the outdated twentieth century ideas of a technocratic smart city. So for all we've talked about smart cities on this podcast, I had to reach out to him to explore that. And, coincidentally, he was visiting family essentially right down the road from my office.\n\nSo he came by.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: And that sounds pretty good where you are right now. So, got it rolling right now. Everything sounds good. All right. Let's go.\n\nSpeaker 1: My name is Daniel LaTore and I'm the founder of a consulting practice called the Wise City. And I am also cofounder of the Digital Placemaking Institute and a senior fellow for digital placemaking at Project for Public Spaces, which is a nonprofit dedicated to the practice of placemaking.\n\nSpeaker 0: What do you mean by wise cities? And what's the difference between a wise city and any other kind of city or a smart city or a human city or or what is it? Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, you know, this is that question, you know, about is also what is smart and what is wise. And, you know, one of the things I think just to acknowledge here, sort of to drop some knowledge bombs, is that that's a general dilemma in our, you know, planet as a whole is, you know, the difference between smart and and and and wise. So, we've lost touch with wisdom. You know, it's been critiqued, you know, within philosophy and politics because historically, there's been lots of corruption about sort of blind following of elders or leaders. But, we live in a different age now.\n\nThere's much transparency in all new forms of governance that can allow checks and balances. So we haven't yet picked up the question again of, so what is, like, twenty first century wisdom? And I think the question that more and more people are starting to have right now is maybe the way we've been defining smart actually isn't smart, and there's a growing concern. So this past week, there was this big controversy where Elon Musk referred to sustainable transportation policies and essentially one of the leading voices of it as an idiot, and that created a huge storm in social media. And now, pretty much every urban planning or city sustainability focused voice and blog is is talking about this.\n\nSo that's just a setup as a way to kind of talk about just where are we right now at the 2017. So the short answer is on on, wisdom, is that it's about compassion, you know, and that's a very different thing than knowledge, which is what I think SMART generally revolves around is information or knowledge. Right? So we have information technology. We are in a knowledge economy, as some people say.\n\nBut wisdom is would say, well, what about what does a compassionate economy look like, or what does a compassionate city look like?\n\nSpeaker 0: Is there anything you see in the rollout or in the urban context, plans that, have kind of or policies or approaches that have kind of, you know, gained speed in the past few years that give you pause and and kinda get you to think about this more? I mean, what what's kind of the origin of this for you?\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, so my background's in technology. So I I came up with the web. I, sort of joined the Internet circus back in the mid nineties and worked at some of the very first digital consulting firms, in New York.\n\nSpeaker 0: So you remember Altavista and\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, yeah. Before Altavista.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bulletin board system way back when. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, as a kid, you know, I started off with, like, a big 20 on, you know, writing my own video games in basic, you know, from, like, the magazines and things like this, and recording saving my my data on a cassette deck, you know, external drive.\n\nSpeaker 0: I remember this.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So before floppy disks were invented. So I'm dating myself here, to to that gives you a picture of where I was when I was around, I don't know, 10 to 12 years old or something like that.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: And my uncle, at that you know, was a programmer at the time, you know, and and so I had some contact with sort of that generation. And then another uncle through marriage, was also in programming and IT management and, was there involved in networking at the very, you know, pre and at the beginning of the internet. Mhmm. Sorry, of the of the web. Right.\n\nSo I had some of those sort of, people in my life. Anyways, so twenty years in technology in digital consulting, branding, marketing, and then, some start up activity, mobile games, platform video games. I worked at Rockstar Video Games on, the, basically, the production design, the sort of Okay. Kinda created a position for myself on the cultural layer that Rockstar Games is so, good at at adding all the sort of cultural flavor and commentary in their games.\n\nSpeaker 0: What what, to set some context there, like, what what were some of the titles that people might know?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. The main one was, in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. Yeah. Yeah. So I worked on a lot of the, production design stuff for that and kind of, we had a small team that we kind of built out there.\n\nAnd, so I've the point is I've I've had, you know, I've my hands in a bunch of these different contemporary technologies\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mobile, web, interactive TV, which comes and goes. And we survived all the hype of early VR hype around VRML back in the late 90s, which that keeps coming and going as well, the VR immersive stuff. And we're now right in the middle of another bubble around VR. So, you know, and when I was younger in my 20s and early 30s, I was like technology is the future and everything's great, right? And there was in those early days since it was all new, there was so much naive awareness because it was novel.\n\nYou know? It was just new stuff, uncharted territory seemingly. And, but then, you know, the bubble crashed, right, in 2000. And so that's when a lot of, of course, everyone said, well, wait a minute. What's going on here?\n\nWhat about the economic factors involved in this and the speculation? And, you know, as it became more successful, it also became more corporate. And, that then introduced other motives. You know, so once a company went public, all of a sudden, the consulting firm, Razorfish, that I was working at, basically only wanted to work for Fortune 500 companies. Right?\n\nAnd but before that, we had the latitude and there was a desire to work with all sorts of innovative and creative companies and with an eye more towards innovative, sort of world changing sorts of projects. But once you sort of, go public, you're all of a sudden you're sort of beholden to, you know, other concerns. Yeah. So, that gave me pause. And then nineeleven happened.\n\nAnd on the night of nineeleven after that, so I'm in my apartment in New York, and where basically the smoke was nonstop for a month. You know? So all of us, as we'd leave your apartment, we had to, like, tape our windows Wow. To keep the smoke out of the apartment. And it was toxic or who knows what was in that smoke.\n\nRight? It was, everything below Fourteenth Street was a sort of military national guard slash police controlled area for like two weeks. Right.\n\nSpeaker 0: So you\n\nSpeaker 1: had to show your ID if you wanted if you show that you lived in that area in order to get below it. So, that woke me up in general and just said like, Hey, I'm here on this planet to do something good. Like a friend of mine who, Robert DeRaney, who passed, he was at breakfast at Windows on the World, early that morning. Early achiever, millionaire by 35. You know?\n\nSo all of the sort of standard definitions of success, plus he was a really nice Lebanese American guy Yeah. Who who had no chance of escape. Right? And he was a great guy, and everyone knew that he was a really great guy to his friends and family. And so that kind of what went through my head was, well, what if I was having breakfast with him as I'd been wanting to catch up with him?\n\nYeah. And what would people say about me? And all my digital consulting work is innovative as it was for financial companies and beauty companies and entertainment companies. I'm like, does that really matter? You know?\n\nSo I had this kind of, like, not that there's anything wrong with it, but just for me. We all have to come up with our own answer, you know, of what are you here for? What's your purpose? And there are a million answers as there are, you know, people. So for me, I was just like I need to make sure that I leave the planet better than I found it in a fairly concrete or demonstrable way.\n\nAnd all of the technology hype that I've been involved in was something that I started to question because there was so much unquestioning and unthinking, sort of blind, you know, just following along with that energy in the technology space that I knew there has to be a better way. So I started to think about how can I apply all of these technology skills that I have towards the environmental, movement or towards education? So that that's that's kind of was the moment of change. And then finally, when all the bike lanes were added into New York City, so it was just you know, thermoplast paint on the street. And that changed.\n\nI loved bicycling since a kid, since I was a child. Right. And being able to basically safely bike in the city by just a simple change of the paint on the street, I had this sort of moment where all of a sudden I pause on my bike. And I said, wait a minute. This is interface change.\n\nSo my day job or my you know, the work that I was doing is all about changing how screens on, you know, laptops and and desktops were back then, because it was before the smartphone, affected people's behavior. And then, all of a sudden, here it was, my whole life, my whole sense of being was made safer, And the city, all of a sudden, felt more enjoyable and and relatable, because of this human scale shift to creating space for biking. And then I was like, I want to get involved in this. That was my moment. It was like, so then I immersed myself in essentially urban design and urban planning and, and then there's there's a sort of pivot in my career from that moment on that bike lane.\n\nSpeaker 0: The first iPhone really came out relatively just like, you know, a handful of years ago, but it that that feels like the starting point for a lot of us. What I do on my phone, this is what I do with technology, and that was kinda like that was chapter one. But moving as quickly as it is and with cities trying to figure out, you know, what are we going to accommodate? What do we do with this technology? We will kinda we we wanna make life better for our citizens.\n\nWe wanna lead the way. We want to integrate technology and capture more data and understand how our city behaves. And do you see us going too quickly? Do you see us having to hit the the time out button, and kinda think about where this is all headed, in terms of who it benefits, where it goes? I mean, what\n\nSpeaker 1: are your thoughts? So, firstly, I I just wanna say that it's there's there is no time out button.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: And and a lot of people confuse being reflective with slowing down. And for those people, so if you're in a conversation and you're wanting to have a more considered investigation of a policy decision or financial decision with a city, what I would say you should ask those people who want to rush, rush, rush is to ask them this, which is if it's really important that we get the question right, so we get the answer right and the question right, then it doesn't necessarily matter how fast we go about it because the consequences and the importance of getting it right really matter. Another way to put it is to ask the question of what direction we're going in. So there is so much well intentioned desire to improve things, but if you're going in the wrong direction, speeding up is the worst thing to do. At bottom of it, it's all coming from a good place.\n\nI think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion. So a lot of what we talk about in a wise city's perspective is actually de centering technology, in the same way that you wouldn't want it to be completely dominated by fiscal concerns, right? Because there are public health and social and education and safety concerns that aren't necessarily determined by financial factors.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: And conversely, you wouldn't want everything to be centered around crime and safety because there's a lot of other aspects of city life that are not just police concerns. So the the wiser approach is to say, hey, there's all these different contributions that all sort of sectors of society can contribute. And technology is a very powerful, if anything, dangerously over powerful thing that we need to use very judiciously because it's so powerful. We should be wary of the sort of over excitement about good intentions because if they're not examined deeply and wisely and with enough people at the table, you're probably gonna make a mistake. You know?\n\nYou're probably gonna sink a lot of money, time,\n\nSpeaker 0: goodwill. So what would you say, because there is a feeling out there that, you know, if we don't kinda keep up, and I put keep up in quotes Yeah. Then we could be left behind. And Yeah. This city over here is doing amazing things with technology, and they're efficient, and they're saving money, and and we wanna be there.\n\nWe wanna be in on that and part of that, but also having to balance that you know, having that caution. We gotta be careful with the money we spend. We can't just jump into decisions and new technologies without really having a full understanding. What do you think should be on the checklist of a city who wants to explore and improve, but also keep these other considerations in mind that that you've mentioned?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things that I think is is a good way to to think about it is there are areas of efficiency that are sort of the low hanging fruit.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right? So there are aspects of your city government or region that are widely known to be good services and benefits. Start there. Start with what you have. Appreciate the good things that you're doing, and look for ways to make that more efficient or more transparent and more visible, especially things that can build trust.\n\nSo one of the, a lot of people will answer this question I think maybe in a similar way, talking about the value of of, open government and open data and transparency. Mhmm. And I gotta say, I've actually and I've I've been a supporter of that, and I remain so. But the one thing that has become clear is that it's been so narrowly defined that it's, I think, becoming a problem because the issues in our cities are so much more than just, about a lack of openness, which inherently positions everything as a in a sort of punitive manner. Right?\n\nLike, there's a giant myth, you know, that government is a problem. Right?\n\nSpeaker 3: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: And this has been going on and being talked about for decades. But the bigger question is, and I would say the wiser question is, how do we build trust between each other? How do we all live together? Right? And that's a deeper question.\n\nSo that If you think about that as your one of your starting points or one of your input questions, then you're going to make different technology decisions. You're going to think about different aspects of your city budget and services of where to go and expend any of the sort of tech magic Right. Or so called tech magic on it. Now so, you know, so that's that there's a sort of stack. Right?\n\nLike, there's these sort of very basic services that are easier to think about as making more efficient as being unquestionable good. But there's one caution to consider in that, which is even if it's something like, say, water quality monitoring, right? Which is humans need water. It's pretty hard to have humanity without water. But then this comes up with a question of, well, if you're gonna be adding in technology solutions into the water delivery and water monitoring, the question goes back to the proprietariness, right?\n\nSo if you're going to be doing that, how much are you getting in bed into contracts that are binding you to a specific company Right. Right? To Siemens or Cisco or Microsoft or IBM or whoever it is or Google. And what are the terms? And who's setting those terms?\n\nAnd do you have the right legal advice and, you know, looking in on this and all the ethical concerns with who has oversight and access to that data. So one cautionary tale, about that is the city of Sydney in Australia. So I was just doing hanging out in Australia for nine months. And the city of Sydney launched a deal to have their transit system switched to tap and go payment cards when you enter the metro and the bus. And in the initial deal that they stroke with this private company was the private company kept all the ridership data.\n\nSo when the transportation officials went to say, let's look at all this great origin and destination information. They couldn't because they didn't own and have access to the data.\n\nSpeaker 0: So it's like, What's it worth to you now? Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: So now luckily, that issue was seen as such an oversight Mhmm. That they renegotiated the deal saying, Hey, we didn't really mean that and that was never our intention. And so, they basically redefined the terms of the contract and they got the data. But you know, there were legal fees involved and time and political capital that was lost, and, there were a number of different costs that happened as a result of that. So the question is, don't do what those city officials in Sydney did.\n\nLearn from their mistake.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. I mean, do do you see other kind of examples out there of, this hasn't worked out quite as well as we thought when we were walking into it?\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of those, actually. You know? You have all these planned cities. There's so many examples on the large scale from the greenfield development of building cities, planned communities, idealistic communities from a technology perspective Mhmm.\n\nOr a business perspective or what have you. But the one thing they have in common is they all were very narrowly defined and had very few people involved in the decision making.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: It was very top down, and that just sets you up for failure. You know? So that's one, I would say, general pattern to think about. So if you're in some very ambitious project and the people around most the tables making all these decisions do not look like the community\n\nSpeaker 3: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Who you're serving, you're probably you have a higher chance of failure. If just it's only a handful of people, you know, and one company, and you don't have good legal representation, you're probably setting yourself up for some major problems or being taken advantage of. So, it goes back to that, which is this question of sort of pluralism or just cities are so are are one of the most magical, complex things that humans do. And you need everybody, you know, sort of as Jane Jacobs talked about it, you need everybody involved in the making of it, in order to make it, you know, suitable for everybody. Right.\n\nAnd that that there's a, it sounds really simple, but as a principle, if you think about that, that can help steer away from a lot of problems.\n\nSpeaker 0: Alright. So at this point, we were really just kind of warming up, you know, still kind of getting to it, to\n\nSpeaker 1: the\n\nSpeaker 0: takeaways. We talked for a long time, a a good couple hours, so I'm trying to bring out the most direct points that Daniel raised while also giving it a good amount of setup. In a recent episode, I I think I mentioned that project in Toronto, an Internet focused development on the waterfront that that is planned to be. Involves Sidewalk Labs, which is part of Alphabet, which is the parent company of Google. So it's supposed to be a place of living and business served by all of these tech efficiencies.\n\nAnd I'll refer back to that Laura Bliss, CityLab article because it goes into it. And so does another piece I'll link to in the show notes, that was posted on Medium. It seems to throw a lot of questions at the process of what should be a big civic achievement that heavily involves private parties. You could say the same about any private development or subdivision, but this one has a heavy focus on technologies that people will ideally use in their daily lives with tons of data being gathered to analyze it all. It could be awesome.\n\nI have no personal reason to think it won't be. I'm just pointing to some of the skepticism about the heavy involvement of private tech companies in shaping something build as being so influential on the public space. I don't know. Let me know if I'm wrong about that. The description of the project says it's using, quote, forward thinking urban design and new digital technology to create people centered neighborhoods that achieve precedent setting levels of sustainability, affordability, mobility, and economic opportunity.\n\nWaterfront Toronto was a partner and it's a government entity. I guess this is just a way of saying that plans to develop new techie neighborhoods, places of living with giant tech companies will probably be met with questions about how people centered it's really going to be. Again, just pointing it out and doing so may be good for the process, one might say. And what we'll get to here shortly is a list, a takeaway list of questions that any city manager or urban planner or project official or whoever can ask in the interest of the human centralization piece of smart city projects, or really any civic tech initiative. Real quick though, one point that Daniel made that stood out had to do with the movements we're seeing like Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement.\n\nMaybe particularly the Me Too movement, meaning there's this issue between technology and consent. And the elevated public interest in these issues and conversations about consent and human impact and of equity and inclusion could amplify those sentiments as they may relate to technology and, for example, data gathering sensors.\n\nSpeaker 1: And this is kind of, you know, kind of become becoming increasingly, apparent in this question of technology and in the growing new movement around civil rights between the issues that people who are facing with black lives, the Black Lives Matters movement, and the Me Too or the, you know, the new movement against sexual violence Right. And discrimination and sexism, and the tremendous energy that's going around that. One of the things that it connects to this whole smart city dimension and the technology question is a lot of these technology deals are involving terms and conditions that are really nonconsensual. Mhmm. You know?\n\nSo if you think about your Facebook and your social media and the things that are being done with your data, right? Now, yes, technically, you hit agree and you sign to those terms and conditions.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sure. But if you read every term and condition, yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: But they aren't really being presented to you as an option. You can't revoke those. You can't opt out. It's kind of all or nothing in most cases.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: So in general, especially in The United States, it brings up this big question of consent. And so there's a sort of, I think, another case where having bringing in the question of wisdom of how do we wisely make sure that we're increasing consent. Consent as a general governing principle is I think what the Me too movement you know, that's been ten years in the making now, but really kind of has just exploded this year, is offering to the sort of raising this larger question about consent in general, not just between, relating to sexual violence and harassment Yeah. But relating to the body and the skin of the city. You know, how do we create a consensual city where everyone's rights are respected?\n\nYou know, there's been a lot of heady, you know, conversation. Right? We were talking about all these big picture ideas, and Mhmm. And that's part of part of wisdom is having an enlarged sense of your connection to everything. Mhmm.\n\nThat's part of, I think, where, one of the aspects of compassion is it's not just about me, you know? It's about you and everyone else. Everything. And not just humans, but all of life on this planet. Right?\n\nSo that's big. Right? That's heady and that's also abstract. So a lot of people may be saying, you know, who cares about, you know, this idealistic talk. Right.\n\nNow that's, of course, where policy comes from. Right? This is the sort of frameworks. So just to bring it down home, policy is that broker, you know, that puts in practical terms these big principles and actually makes them possible to come down to be turned into laws and regulations and ethical conduct, social codes, and things like this. So what I what I think would what I would wanna do is say, like, I here's some there's some questions that you could ask right now about the projects, that you're considering or you're working on or maybe, you know, from a post mortem standpoint Yeah.\n\nYou know, a project that maybe you just did. So So so\n\nSpeaker 0: a city manager or a planner or somebody like that, these are things that they could run through.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So let's let's let's let's kinda do something. It's like wherever you are right now listening to this, you can, think about a project that you're that you're doing or about to do or have done. So let's go through these questions and just think, you know, first thought, best thought, whatever comes to mind.\n\nAnd, of course, you can think about these longer. But even just right now in the course of this, let's go through a handful of questions. So question number one. Mhmm. What is the problem to which this technology is a solution?\n\nSo right there, that that could, you know, that could take you could take your team and spend an hour with that question. Absolutely. Question number two, whose problem is it? K? Mhmm.\n\nQuestion number three, which people and what institutions might be most seriously harmed by a technology solution? I mean, right there, you know, is again, this is the thing is sometimes you you solve one thing in in one place, but then all of a sudden it creates another problem.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: These are what we call, you know, secondary effects. And there's a lot of research on this. And actually, there's a lot of research in media studies and communication studies and anthropology and science and technology studies and sociology and anthropology on the impacts of technology. The unintend quote unquote unintended but very well researched and quite well documented existing known effects of different types of societal changes or technologies and or even potentially ways to help you detect things that are truly unknown. But you could at least get hunches to say, well, we expect that it's gonna this disruption here is gonna create a new problematic disruption over there.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right. Now I could ask for an example, but I mean, I think any of us could just fill in the blank with 20 things right now, you know?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, my my my head is short circuiting right now with different examples of of this. You know, you think about well, here's a positive example. Sure. Right?\n\nSo the smartphone in many ways has revived radio. So the reason why we're doing a podcast and people are listening to it and a lot of people, especially those of us that are Gen X and millennial, we probably haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times Right. Or not that often.\n\nSpeaker 0: I used to work in radio and haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And so, you know, there's, you know, there's a shrinkage. Like, in in journalism across the board, there's been a contraction. But when when it comes to audio, the smartphone has been what has driven this complete renaissance that we're seeing now in basically sort of this sort of campfire, like, huddling around the fire and having conversations that are what I find about what I like about podcasts is you end up having much deeper information sharing than on broadcast television or or your typical, you know, news radio. Question number five.\n\nWhat sort of people and institutions might acquire special economic and political power because of a technological change? So that's that's related. Yeah. You know, kind of bringing more specific focusing to the to the matter. Again, these five questions right here, you can take a lot of time thinking about them.\n\nQuestion six. What changes in language are being enforced by new technologies and what is being gained and lost by such changes? So initially, you may say, well, what does that have to do with, you know, that's a language. How significant can that be? You know, in a lot of the sort of, positives, you know, social good, technology conversations, you know, you hear people talking about us living.\n\nWe're now in a data centric society. Well, if you say that our current society is data centric, then that means there are other things that are not at the center that are that you're pushing away. So you're pushing one thing into the center of focus with to the exclusion of other things. Question seven. So with this project that you have in mind or that you've done, is it contextual to the place?\n\nSo think about the people, the neighborhood, the location of it, if it if it's spatial, or the general benefit of of who it's serving. How relatable is it to the people that you're trying to help?\n\nSpeaker 0: Gotcha.\n\nSpeaker 1: This is that's this is one of the biggest missteps that so many projects take is they take a generic solution or maybe a solution that worked elsewhere, and they don't adapt it or really make it relevant to the local place and people.\n\nSpeaker 0: That's even with the dissemination of information and and how we get how government gets information out there, the challenge of of putting something out there that's culturally resonant, that speaks the right language, that that, creates a visualization the right way, that someone can relate to, otherwise or so it's not a blur and so it's not a fog. And so it doesn't, you know, just perpetuate this whole thing of government being something behind closed doors that I don't necessarily feel like I have access to.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and this is the thing where it really also, helps bridge a lot of political divide because pretty much, you know, you get a lot of support for being more local. You know, regardless of which political, position you have.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: And and there are benefits, to that across the spectrum. And and this is the one thing that we see in place making is that, you know, when you make it more connected to the place and people, it becomes more meaningful. And then that is also what then attracts more attachment and that means cultural value and economic value Mhmm. To why should I go visit your town? Why should I pull off, you know, and make a trip or take a spontaneous pause to go into this town or that town?\n\nYeah. Or even making it become a destination where that's my goal of my trip is to come and visit this place or that place\n\nSpeaker 0: for\n\nSpeaker 1: any conversely, for you to come where I live.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right? If if we all kind of supply, provide these generic solutions, and And this is the trapping. A lot of technology is very generic. You know, a lot of these technology solutions are designed to be as mass usable as possible. So they're almost not thinking about local adaptation and local customization.\n\nSpeaker 3: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: So that's a big, sort of, yeah, sticking point with a lot of the sort of techno, centered, kind of techno blind, thinking. Question number eight, are local people collaborating in making and using it? So if you think about your project, you know, to what degree did you involve local people in the creation of it, or to what degree are they actually using it? Now that one, I think, to some degree, a lot of people think about whenever a new thing is launched in a city, you wanna say, hey. Are people using it?\n\nDo they like it? Are they valuing it? So most politicians and elected officials and their appointees, are often thinking about that a lot. I would say that here's the twist is if you involve more people in the conception of it or in the making of it or in the envisioning of it, then you'll get more people using it. Right.\n\nBecause it'll be course corrected and and then you also have a higher chance of making it more local. Question nine, does it support a human scale relationship or interaction? So if you think about your project, you know, what we mean by human scale is that sense of, encouraging, you know, more face to face interaction with people. So one of the things that, you know, that I recommend is that, let's say, you are evaluating proposals from your local innovation hub or, you know, eager beaver, you know, do gooders. Yeah.\n\nAnd they have a solution, but no one's involved in really collaborating. And it's just the two guys who are recommending it. Right. And, whatever that solution does, is something that, only very few people can access. Or let's say the solution is on a mobile phone.\n\nSo it's a new app for your city. Okay. Well, a mobile phone inherently is a a personal individualistic experience. It's you looking down at your screen. And sure, you can chat or message, but there's something very different than, let's say, if you added an urban screen or like a large, you know, projection screen in a in a community plaza or in the central park of your town.\n\nMhmm. And then you had something that was a shared experience, you know? That is a human scale. That's increasing the human scale relationship. Mhmm.\n\nSo this is a thing where sometimes, you know, a lot of people say, well, everything should just be on a mobile phone. It's so efficient. Well, but that isn't always the only outcome or the only, you know, variable that you should be concerned with. So that's that's a that's that one there, you can again, the human scale relationship thing is another trap that a lot of people have, they they ignore or they don't pay attention to.\n\nSpeaker 3: Right. And\n\nSpeaker 1: they miss out on a lot of benefit. So sometimes that means with the same budget and the same duration that you spend on a project, if you think about increasing the human scale relationship outcomes of that project, you can often, depending on what it is, get a much bigger return on your time and investment. Question 10, does it increase face to face interaction? Question, 11 is to what degree is the project open source? Now that one's a tricky one.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. And and what does open source mean to you?\n\nSpeaker 1: So open source, there's a bunch of different definitions, and there are so many other podcasts that get into the open source movement, but I would just refer people to go read up on it. But the short answer is just is it open? Is the code of your software are you using or what I mean by it here is are you contributing to or using or making your code open? Now there are many different ways to go about this. And so I'm not I don't I really don't like to be prescriptive.\n\nAnd that's why a lot of these questions are sort of they're more like guidelines and principles. But, you know, if you're using public money to provide a public benefit, there's a really good argument to say that you should use, and contribute to or offer open source software solutions because then other cities in your or institutions in your own city, in your region, in your state, in your country, in the planet, you know, could potentially take advantage of this, and there's some benefit to that. Now, conversely, depending on what you're doing, you know, when it comes to data Yeah. Just as a caution, is open data is not so simple. There's so many issues about privacy and, you know, again, back to this goes back to the question of consent Right.\n\nWhere when it comes to the data side of things, there's a whole host of considerations you need to make for anonymizing and protecting potentially identifiable information. Right. And again, there's a lot of material online about this. So if that's if one of your projects involve the collecting or usage of a lot of, resident data, you should definitely look up that, to help you guide you in a in a wiser direction.\n\nSpeaker 0: There's a lot of open data platforms out there right now too.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there that's sort of very a matured aspect of this overall kind of, tech and, you know, civic movement. Right. That's that's kind of their their many wise voices have joined in on on course correcting what's been happening there. So quest so the next question is, is there capacity building?\n\nSo in your project that you're thinking about in your head, you know, that you've just done or that you're doing, is to what degree is that project helping to demonstrate, model, or build the capacity of the people who are involved in making it or and or the people who are involved in using it? So you're helping elevate, the discussion, the inclusion, the intelligence, the wisdom, etcetera\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Of it. And that so that's another way to think about it, that again, it's kind of like initially may you may think, well, you know, how does that relate? Why should I care about that? Or why should I how should I relate to that? But if you're trying to change the practices in your institution, in your department, if you're looking to help create new policies or culture in your city when it comes to things like environment or education, or public health, you do wanna think about the capacity for adopting new changes in practices.\n\nAnd so in one way is I would say this is one of the most important questions because in the twenty first century, you know, like we started, you know, there are so many, changes that we need to make in order to come to a sustainable, equitable life where we can all live together and figure out how to live together in a equitable, sustainable way. So, so much of that is about capacity building to transform and change. And two more questions here. So, is it connecting, to existing community goals? So again, this is part of that, like, you know, the good intentions, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.\n\nMhmm. Your your well intended excellent project that may have a great outcome may be isolated from the existing goals of the community. Sure. So this goes back to, you know, our people, who's at the table, and who's involved in collaborating and making it. So and I intentionally left this sort of in there twice because it's asking the same question from two different angles because it's really important to get that right.\n\nSo if you missed out the first one, if you're like, screw it. We're not gonna have local people collaborating in it, making it, and using it.\n\nSpeaker 3: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, if you say is it connected to existing goals, which again may relate to your electoral success or your, general, you know, review and performance review assessment\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, of your, responsibilities in in city governance. That's another way to kinda keep you on the right track. And then here's the last one. And and this one is I mean, these are all very important, but this last one is another gotcha that so many people drop. And then it diminishes or ends up being a big failure point, which is, again, for the so for the project that you're thinking about doing, especially if you're a next project or the one that currently is in play, is how well is ongoing iteration planned for and supported.\n\nSo especially with technology, and but with a lot of other things, is you can get all excited about launching. And if you don't have the maintenance and the budget and the prioritization to say, well, we have to fix the bugs and make improvements based on feedback from the users or in the park if we need to change the seating arrangement around or in the city street grid, you know, if we need to change the signaling and what have you. You know, there's there's it's a constant living thing. You know, cities cities are people. And so, therefore, cities are always growing and changing and living and moving.\n\nAnd, it's not just about the launch. And so a lot of the tech hype, basically just kind of raises this silver bullet thing where people think that technology is the object. Right. It's the software or it's the hardware. It's it's not really.\n\n90% of quote unquote technology is the practices. That's right. It's the shift of the practices within\n\nSpeaker 0: the\n\nSpeaker 1: the different ways that we govern and relate to each other and to the way that we communicate. And that's that's it's one of the most difficult things for people to understand because so many other things that we're familiar with, in the sort of pre technology sort of city governance were about objects. It was about the hardware object and that's is it is\n\nSpeaker 0: what it is.\n\nSpeaker 1: It's just that physical thing. But the nature of digital technology, and this goes into a whole other direction, that is a big part of my work, which is the sort of media studies, the communication studies, just basically bringing in and elevating and capacity building for folks in cities to get them to understand what is really the nature of digital which is inherently immaterial. It's it's a process. You know, technology is process Right. More so than the object.\n\nYou know? And, that that just opens up a whole other way of looking at governance and management and responsibility and stewardship. And again, this is another area where, you know, we need more academics and the the educating institutions, need to jump in on this because it's such a different paradigm than the way economics has been standardly, you know, normally defined, and governance. Although on one on one level, I I find increasingly policy folks and governance folks are once you start explaining it to people in this way, if they aren't already on it, they get process because so much of governance from the policy making perspective is all about the process. And the software people, the really savvy user centered design, civic design folks, they also get this.\n\nSo in the whole sort of innovation on service design that's going on in in The US and in other places, they all get this as well. And that's that's really, I think, right now is one of the areas of innovation is, shifting this more process and service model of looking at what do we mean by innovation. You know, innovation is not a thing. It's about looking at doing things differently. So that means process.\n\nRight.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. You're right. I mean, the innovation is the invention in a lot of cases in terms of perspective and how people look at it. And this is the milestone like, bam, here it is right here. Yeah.\n\nWe've achieved innovation.\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: But I mean, even even with that, you know, so, like, when the radio was invented, right, the the the significance of radio was not the invention of the vacuum tubes and the device. It was how people change their communication practices and their daily living in listening to and the broadcasters and journalists in learning how to communicate on radio and the way that then people got their information and socially participated by sitting around the radio or and then it evolved into in the car, you know, it changed the process and the way that we related and communicated. That's radio, you know, it isn't just about the object. Right. What we what we really value about radio is the different way it changed our relationship to each other and information.\n\nSpeaker 0: And now we podcast. Bringing it back. Where, where can people learn more about you and the the work you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, right now, the the best way really is Twitter. So I'm, at Dan Latore, and you can, find me there. You know, this space is changing so fast and evolving so quickly that, and and globally that Twitter pretty much, in in my observation and experience, is it's that's the best way to keep abreast of all of this.\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: So That's what John do. Yeah. Hashtag wise cities, placemaking, and and there's all sort of a lot of hashtags you can follow. So if you kinda jump in on the tweet streams, you can dive in and, swim along. And we so for those of you that are really, you know, wanting more of this, we need more conversation in this space, you know.\n\nSo, I would want more and more people talking about this and getting in in at raising questions about this. So hit me up with any questions, and, or examples too. Those are the two things I'm looking to collect. So the organizations or the kind of the work that I'm focusing on right now is, the articulating of digital place making.\n\nSpeaker 3: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: So this is basically place making in the twenty first century, you know. And and really, you know, we're only talking about digital this, digital that because we're in transition, you know. But, you know, in in whatever, five years or ten years, we won't be thinking about digital this or digital that. It'll just be governance. Right.\n\nIt'll just be communication. Just like, you know, twenty years ago, people didn't go around and say, well, I'm gonna write a book about paper governance. You know, even though most of all the governance, the tool that was used\n\nSpeaker 3: was paper.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. It was expressed on printed law books and case, you know, log studies and and newspapers and legal journals. So the technology that was used was print and on paper, but no one said I'm I'm an expert, you know, or I'm studying paper governance, you know. So it was just governance. Mhmm.\n\nSo, but we're in a transition stage right now. So we're very conscious of this shift of tech of technology from paper to digital. So it's a useful term to kinda just signal that we're, we're changing and we're intentionally working on making a, what I would say is a wise transition. To this, to the,\n\nSpeaker 0: all these new technologies. Daniel really appreciate this. It's been awesome. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thank you for having me.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thanks for listening. I'll have links to Daniel LaTore and his work in case you'd like to learn more in the show notes with this episode at soundcloud.com/municipalequation. So this, as Daniel said, was more of a heady thought process kind of episode, but I'm glad we included that list of questions that you can ask in this wise city kind of spirit. By the way, I'll have a link to Daniel's Twitter page and pinned at the top of it is that entire list written out so you can use it, share it, whatever. So what are your thoughts as we go through this big revolution of smart cities, which has so many angles and applications that it's hard to encapsulate sometimes, but absolutely often well intentioned as Daniel said.\n\nSo what are you thinking right now? Let me know. Record a voice memo on your smartphone and email it to me. I'm at bbrown@nclm.org. If you don't wanna talk aloud, just type it out, and I'll include it on a future episode.\n\nIt's all about feedback and conversation and exploring different ideas in the space of cities and towns in the face of change. There's not a one size fits all. If you need more background on this whole smart cities thing, there's a world of information online about it, but you can also simply listen to past episodes of this podcast, like episode 38 and episode 18, soundcloud.com/municipalequation, or nclm.org/municipalequation. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast. Keep in touch, and we'll be back with a new episode in a couple weeks.\n\nThis is Ben Brown.",
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                      "text": "On this episode, the municipal equation",
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                      "text": "is all coming from a good place.",
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                      "text": "I think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion.",
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                      "text": "So a lot of what we talk about in a sort of wise cities perspective is actually decentering technology.",
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                      "text": "Listeners to this podcast know about the smart cities movement.",
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                      "text": "Now let's talk about wise cities.",
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                      "text": "My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change.",
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                      "text": "From the North Carolina League for municipalities, episode 43.",
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                      "text": "Last month, Laura Bliss at CityLab wrote a piece titled, When a Tech Giant Plays Waterfront Developer.",
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                      "text": "The story begins at the massive Consumer Electronics Show, or CES, in Las",
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                      "text": "The annual mega gathering of the tech world, which starts in Las Vegas on Tuesday, was once a parade of TV screens, smartphones, and other personal electronics.",
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                      "text": "But CES's dazzling displays have increasingly focused on cities themselves and the profit potential they present to technology companies.",
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                      "text": "The question, as always, is where that leaves people who live in them.",
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                      "text": "We often see or hear or read words from urban tech gurus about how we need to unleash the power of smart city technology or the Internet of things in our cities.",
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                      "text": "It implies an eagerness to seize upon actual obtainable technologies, systems and processes that we can roll out right now to better understand our cities and create a new unprecedented level of connectivity and analysis.",
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                      "text": "Talking like that commands inspirational music and motivational tones of voice, but it also kind of makes some people nervous.",
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                      "text": "Not to mischaracterize what any of these urban tech gurus are saying ultimately, because there's a lot of smart people working on this stuff, but that nervousness or hesitancy is in another form, a growing and reasoned criticism of smart cities.",
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                      "text": "Whenever it's in the context of a possible runway conversation that's more project oriented or tech leadership oriented than a methodical thought process that focuses on what's best for everyday people.",
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                      "text": "You know what I mean?",
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                      "text": "Obviously, our residents benefit from that.",
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                      "text": "It saves the city money.",
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                      "text": "It saves the people money.",
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                      "text": "And the data we collect let us better understand them and what they need, so we can make their town a better fit for them.",
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                      "text": "Someone on the other end, however, might say, what residence do you mean?",
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                      "text": "Because again, a hugely diverse, nearly unharnessable spread of personalities, preferences, lifestyles, priorities, backgrounds, futures.",
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                      "text": "You know what I mean?",
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                      "text": "How are these smart city practices and data gathering technologies assuring us that they're inclusive of that variety?",
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                      "text": "So that's just a basic example of thinking and maybe a false dichotomy or an oversimplification.",
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                      "text": "And I'm in no way criticizing or tearing down any of the work going on in government like this.",
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                      "text": "We've highlighted on this podcast some really cool uses and practices with smart city technology.",
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                      "text": "Like how the town of Cary in North Carolina is using its own government campus as a test kitchen and making tech vendors prove the worth of their smart city products before the town invests or rolls them out to the greater public space.",
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                      "text": "Notice I didn't say unleash.",
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                      "text": "And I'm not at all pulling back on any of the conversations we've had on this podcast about smart cities, primarily because they've been highly educational, giving us a good understanding of what a smart city is and what the conversations are and what the conventions are.",
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                      "text": "Smart cities one zero one, and then some more advanced talk about what we're seeing out there today in the context of urban IoT and smart cities.",
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                      "text": "That's important to know for cities of all sizes.",
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                      "text": "But I do want to highlight the conversation about caution.",
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                      "text": "As we observe growth in smart city pursuits and operations on the ground, we're seeing a lot of people saying it's time to zoom out, do the aerial photo, and look at the track we're on.",
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                      "text": "Where is it going?",
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                      "text": "And what's it mean for everyday people?",
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                      "text": "Let's replay a quick line from episode 38 when we talk with Qasem Shepherd, author of the book City Makers.",
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                      "text": "I think too much of the way in which we kind of think technology will will save us and all of our problems really relies on a on a dogma of the the culture of disruption and that technology will enable us to shortcut through complicated bureaucratic, regulatory hurdles, when in fact, I think the greater promise of information technology in the urban sphere is not to shortcut government or disrupt it, but rather to make the complexity of urban processes, particularly at the local government level, more legible to citizens so that they can more meaningfully participate.",
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                      "text": "Sometimes it doesn't mean participate online, but just means explaining the process so that they have the tools and the knowledge necessary to communicate in traditional democratic participation, whether whether that's community meetings or just voting.",
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                      "text": "Ironically, communications technology was not serving us well that day, so sorry for the glitchy phone signal there.",
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                      "text": "But anyway, he went on to raise a lot of questions about smart cities, and what the public and private sectors are doing to create them, and where that leaves the people.",
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                      "text": "And I've been reading more and more about that conversation.",
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                      "text": "This conversation full of questions about the wisdom and inclusion of civic technology and smart cities.",
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                      "text": "And it was around that time I ran across Daniel LaTore of Brooklyn, New York in a hashtag that he uses on Twitter.",
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                      "text": "And, coincidentally, he was visiting family essentially right down the road from my office.",
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                      "text": "So he came by.",
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                      "text": "Okay.",
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                      "text": "And that sounds pretty good where you are right now.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So, got it rolling right now.",
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                      "text": "Everything sounds good.",
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                      "text": "All right.",
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                      "text": "Let's go.",
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                      "text": "My name is Daniel LaTore and I'm the founder of a consulting practice called the Wise City.",
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                      "text": "And I am also cofounder of the Digital Placemaking Institute and a senior fellow for digital placemaking at Project for Public Spaces, which is a nonprofit dedicated to the practice of placemaking.",
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                      "text": "What do you mean by wise cities?",
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                      "text": "And what's the difference between a wise city and any other kind of city or a smart city or a human city or or what is it?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "Well, you know, this is that question, you know, about is also what is smart and what is wise.",
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                      "text": "And, you know, one of the things I think just to acknowledge here, sort of to drop some knowledge bombs, is that that's a general dilemma in our, you know, planet as a whole is, you know, the difference between smart and and and and wise.",
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                      "text": "There's much transparency in all new forms of governance that can allow checks and balances.",
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                      "text": "So we haven't yet picked up the question again of, so what is, like, twenty first century wisdom?",
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                      "text": "And I think the question that more and more people are starting to have right now is maybe the way we've been defining smart actually isn't smart, and there's a growing concern.",
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                      "text": "So this past week, there was this big controversy where Elon Musk referred to sustainable transportation policies and essentially one of the leading voices of it as an idiot, and that created a huge storm in social media.",
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                      "text": "And now, pretty much every urban planning or city sustainability focused voice and blog is is talking about this.",
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                      "text": "So that's just a setup as a way to kind of talk about just where are we right now at the 2017.",
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                      "text": "So the short answer is on on, wisdom, is that it's about compassion, you know, and that's a very different thing than knowledge, which is what I think SMART generally revolves around is information or knowledge.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "So we have information technology.",
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                      "text": "But wisdom is would say, well, what about what does a compassionate economy look like, or what does a compassionate city look like?",
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                      "text": "Is there anything you see in the rollout or in the urban context, plans that, have kind of or policies or approaches that have kind of, you know, gained speed in the past few years that give you pause and and kinda get you to think about this more?",
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                      "text": "I mean, what what's kind of the origin of this for you?",
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                      "text": "Well, so my background's in technology.",
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                      "text": "So I I came up with the web.",
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                      "text": "I, sort of joined the Internet circus back in the mid nineties and worked at some of the very first digital consulting firms, in New York.",
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                      "text": "So you remember Altavista and",
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                      "text": "I mean, as a kid, you know, I started off with, like, a big 20 on, you know, writing my own video games in basic, you know, from, like, the magazines and things like this, and recording saving my my data on a cassette deck, you know, external drive.",
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                      "text": "So I'm dating myself here, to to that gives you a picture of where I was when I was around, I don't know, 10 to 12 years old or something like that.",
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                      "text": "And my uncle, at that you know, was a programmer at the time, you know, and and so I had some contact with sort of that generation.",
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                      "text": "And then another uncle through marriage, was also in programming and IT management and, was there involved in networking at the very, you know, pre and at the beginning of the internet.",
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "Sorry, of the of the web.",
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                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "What what, to set some context there, like, what what were some of the titles that people might know?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "The main one was, in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "So I worked on a lot of the, production design stuff for that and kind of, we had a small team that we kind of built out there.",
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                      "text": "And, so I've the point is I've I've had, you know, I've my hands in a bunch of these different contemporary technologies",
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                      "text": "Mobile, web, interactive TV, which comes and goes.",
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                      "text": "And we survived all the hype of early VR hype around VRML back in the late 90s, which that keeps coming and going as well, the VR immersive stuff.",
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                      "text": "And we're now right in the middle of another bubble around VR.",
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                      "text": "So, you know, and when I was younger in my 20s and early 30s, I was like technology is the future and everything's great, right?",
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                      "text": "And there was in those early days since it was all new, there was so much naive awareness because it was novel.",
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                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "It was just new stuff, uncharted territory seemingly.",
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                      "text": "And, but then, you know, the bubble crashed, right, in 2000.",
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                      "text": "And so that's when a lot of, of course, everyone said, well, wait a minute.",
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                      "text": "What's going on here?",
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                      "text": "What about the economic factors involved in this and the speculation?",
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                      "text": "And, you know, as it became more successful, it also became more corporate.",
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                      "text": "And, that then introduced other motives.",
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                      "text": "You know, so once a company went public, all of a sudden, the consulting firm, Razorfish, that I was working at, basically only wanted to work for Fortune 500 companies.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "And but before that, we had the latitude and there was a desire to work with all sorts of innovative and creative companies and with an eye more towards innovative, sort of world changing sorts of projects.",
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                      "text": "But once you sort of, go public, you're all of a sudden you're sort of beholden to, you know, other concerns.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "So, that gave me pause.",
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                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "So all of us, as we'd leave your apartment, we had to, like, tape our windows Wow.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "It was, everything below Fourteenth Street was a sort of military national guard slash police controlled area for like two weeks.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "had to show your ID if you wanted if you show that you lived in that area in order to get below it.",
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                      "text": "So, that woke me up in general and just said like, Hey, I'm here on this planet to do something good.",
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                      "text": "Like a friend of mine who, Robert DeRaney, who passed, he was at breakfast at Windows on the World, early that morning.",
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                      "text": "Early achiever, millionaire by 35.",
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                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "So all of the sort of standard definitions of success, plus he was a really nice Lebanese American guy Yeah.",
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                      "text": "Who who had no chance of escape.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "And he was a great guy, and everyone knew that he was a really great guy to his friends and family.",
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                      "text": "And so that kind of what went through my head was, well, what if I was having breakfast with him as I'd been wanting to catch up with him?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "And what would people say about me?",
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                      "text": "And all my digital consulting work is innovative as it was for financial companies and beauty companies and entertainment companies.",
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                      "text": "I'm like, does that really matter?",
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                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "So I had this kind of, like, not that there's anything wrong with it, but just for me.",
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                      "text": "We all have to come up with our own answer, you know, of what are you here for?",
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                      "text": "And there are a million answers as there are, you know, people.",
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                      "text": "And all of the technology hype that I've been involved in was something that I started to question because there was so much unquestioning and unthinking, sort of blind, you know, just following along with that energy in the technology space that I knew there has to be a better way.",
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                      "text": "So I started to think about how can I apply all of these technology skills that I have towards the environmental, movement or towards education?",
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                      "text": "So that that's that's kind of was the moment of change.",
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                      "text": "And then finally, when all the bike lanes were added into New York City, so it was just you know, thermoplast paint on the street.",
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                      "text": "And that changed.",
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                      "text": "I loved bicycling since a kid, since I was a child.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And being able to basically safely bike in the city by just a simple change of the paint on the street, I had this sort of moment where all of a sudden I pause on my bike.",
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                      "text": "And I said, wait a minute.",
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                      "text": "So my day job or my you know, the work that I was doing is all about changing how screens on, you know, laptops and and desktops were back then, because it was before the smartphone, affected people's behavior.",
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                      "text": "And then, all of a sudden, here it was, my whole life, my whole sense of being was made safer, And the city, all of a sudden, felt more enjoyable and and relatable, because of this human scale shift to creating space for biking.",
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                      "text": "And then I was like, I want to get involved in this.",
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                      "text": "It was like, so then I immersed myself in essentially urban design and urban planning and, and then there's there's a sort of pivot in my career from that moment on that bike lane.",
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                      "text": "The first iPhone really came out relatively just like, you know, a handful of years ago, but it that that feels like the starting point for a lot of us.",
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                    {
                      "text": "What I do on my phone, this is what I do with technology, and that was kinda like that was chapter one.",
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                      "text": "But moving as quickly as it is and with cities trying to figure out, you know, what are we going to accommodate?",
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                    {
                      "text": "What do we do with this technology?",
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                      "text": "We will kinda we we wanna make life better for our citizens.",
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                      "text": "We wanna lead the way.",
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                      "text": "We want to integrate technology and capture more data and understand how our city behaves.",
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                      "text": "And do you see us going too quickly?",
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                      "text": "Do you see us having to hit the the time out button, and kinda think about where this is all headed, in terms of who it benefits, where it goes?",
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                      "text": "I mean, what",
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                      "text": "are your thoughts?",
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                      "text": "So, firstly, I I just wanna say that it's there's there is no time out button.",
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "And and a lot of people confuse being reflective with slowing down.",
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                      "text": "And for those people, so if you're in a conversation and you're wanting to have a more considered investigation of a policy decision or financial decision with a city, what I would say you should ask those people who want to rush, rush, rush is to ask them this, which is if it's really important that we get the question right, so we get the answer right and the question right, then it doesn't necessarily matter how fast we go about it because the consequences and the importance of getting it right really matter.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Another way to put it is to ask the question of what direction we're going in.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So there is so much well intentioned desire to improve things, but if you're going in the wrong direction, speeding up is the worst thing to do.",
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                    {
                      "text": "At bottom of it, it's all coming from a good place.",
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                      "text": "I think the main problem is when technology becomes overly centered in the overall discussion.",
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                      "text": "So a lot of what we talk about in a wise city's perspective is actually de centering technology, in the same way that you wouldn't want it to be completely dominated by fiscal concerns, right?",
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                    {
                      "text": "Because there are public health and social and education and safety concerns that aren't necessarily determined by financial factors.",
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                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "And conversely, you wouldn't want everything to be centered around crime and safety because there's a lot of other aspects of city life that are not just police concerns.",
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                      "text": "So the the wiser approach is to say, hey, there's all these different contributions that all sort of sectors of society can contribute.",
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                      "text": "And technology is a very powerful, if anything, dangerously over powerful thing that we need to use very judiciously because it's so powerful.",
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                      "text": "We should be wary of the sort of over excitement about good intentions because if they're not examined deeply and wisely and with enough people at the table, you're probably gonna make a mistake.",
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                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "You're probably gonna sink a lot of money, time,",
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                      "text": "goodwill.",
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                      "text": "So what would you say, because there is a feeling out there that, you know, if we don't kinda keep up, and I put keep up in quotes Yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Then we could be left behind.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And Yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "This city over here is doing amazing things with technology, and they're efficient, and they're saving money, and and we wanna be there.",
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                      "text": "We wanna be in on that and part of that, but also having to balance that you know, having that caution.",
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                    {
                      "text": "We gotta be careful with the money we spend.",
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                    {
                      "text": "We can't just jump into decisions and new technologies without really having a full understanding.",
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                      "text": "What do you think should be on the checklist of a city who wants to explore and improve, but also keep these other considerations in mind that that you've mentioned?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So one of the things that I think is is a good way to to think about it is there are areas of efficiency that are sort of the low hanging fruit.",
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "So there are aspects of your city government or region that are widely known to be good services and benefits.",
                      "start": 1347.03,
                      "end": 1357.8049
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Start there.",
                      "start": 1358.585,
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                    {
                      "text": "Start with what you have.",
                      "start": 1359.705,
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                    {
                      "text": "Appreciate the good things that you're doing, and look for ways to make that more efficient or more transparent and more visible, especially things that can build trust.",
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                      "text": "So one of the, a lot of people will answer this question I think maybe in a similar way, talking about the value of of, open government and open data and transparency.",
                      "start": 1372.35,
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                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 1385.105,
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                      "text": "And I gotta say, I've actually and I've I've been a supporter of that, and I remain so.",
                      "start": 1385.345,
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                      "text": "But the one thing that has become clear is that it's been so narrowly defined that it's, I think, becoming a problem because the issues in our cities are so much more than just, about a lack of openness, which inherently positions everything as a in a sort of punitive manner.",
                      "start": 1391.185,
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                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "Like, there's a giant myth, you know, that government is a problem.",
                      "start": 1410.395,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 1414.155,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 1414.555,
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                      "text": "And this has been going on and being talked about for decades.",
                      "start": 1414.9551,
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                    {
                      "text": "But the bigger question is, and I would say the wiser question is, how do we build trust between each other?",
                      "start": 1418.2351,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "How do we all live together?",
                      "start": 1424.61,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 1426.61,
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                    {
                      "text": "And that's a deeper question.",
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                      "text": "So that If you think about that as your one of your starting points or one of your input questions, then you're going to make different technology decisions.",
                      "start": 1428.29,
                      "end": 1435.73
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                    {
                      "text": "You're going to think about different aspects of your city budget and services of where to go and expend any of the sort of tech magic Right.",
                      "start": 1435.73,
                      "end": 1443.155
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or so called tech magic on it.",
                      "start": 1443.275,
                      "end": 1445.055
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                    {
                      "text": "Now so, you know, so that's that there's a sort of stack.",
                      "start": 1445.115,
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                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "Like, there's these sort of very basic services that are easier to think about as making more efficient as being unquestionable good.",
                      "start": 1448.3151,
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                      "text": "But there's one caution to consider in that, which is even if it's something like, say, water quality monitoring, right?",
                      "start": 1457.62,
                      "end": 1466.185
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Which is humans need water.",
                      "start": 1466.185,
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                      "text": "It's pretty hard to have humanity without water.",
                      "start": 1467.785,
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                    {
                      "text": "But then this comes up with a question of, well, if you're gonna be adding in technology solutions into the water delivery and water monitoring, the question goes back to the proprietariness, right?",
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                      "text": "So if you're going to be doing that, how much are you getting in bed into contracts that are binding you to a specific company Right.",
                      "start": 1484.0299,
                      "end": 1492.235
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                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 1492.315,
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                      "text": "To Siemens or Cisco or Microsoft or IBM or whoever it is or Google.",
                      "start": 1492.635,
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                      "text": "And what are the terms?",
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                      "text": "And who's setting those terms?",
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                      "text": "And do you have the right legal advice and, you know, looking in on this and all the ethical concerns with who has oversight and access to that data.",
                      "start": 1500.635,
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                    {
                      "text": "So one cautionary tale, about that is the city of Sydney in Australia.",
                      "start": 1510.98,
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                    {
                      "text": "So I was just doing hanging out in Australia for nine months.",
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                      "text": "And the city of Sydney launched a deal to have their transit system switched to tap and go payment cards when you enter the metro and the bus.",
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                      "text": "And in the initial deal that they stroke with this private company was the private company kept all the ridership data.",
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                      "text": "So when the transportation officials went to say, let's look at all this great origin and destination information.",
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                      "text": "They couldn't because they didn't own and have access to the data.",
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                      "text": "So it's like, What's it worth to you now?",
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "So now luckily, that issue was seen as such an oversight Mhmm.",
                      "start": 1555.145,
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                    {
                      "text": "That they renegotiated the deal saying, Hey, we didn't really mean that and that was never our intention.",
                      "start": 1561.37,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, they basically redefined the terms of the contract and they got the data.",
                      "start": 1567.05,
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                    {
                      "text": "But you know, there were legal fees involved and time and political capital that was lost, and, there were a number of different costs that happened as a result of that.",
                      "start": 1572.0901,
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                      "text": "So the question is, don't do what those city officials in Sydney did.",
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                      "text": "Learn from their mistake.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "I mean, do do you see other kind of examples out there of, this hasn't worked out quite as well as we thought when we were walking into it?",
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                      "text": "Well, I mean, yeah.",
                      "start": 1596.59,
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                      "text": "I mean, there's a lot of those, actually.",
                      "start": 1597.39,
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                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 1599.1499,
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                    {
                      "text": "You have all these planned cities.",
                      "start": 1600.1449,
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                      "text": "There's so many examples on the large scale from the greenfield development of building cities, planned communities, idealistic communities from a technology perspective Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "Or a business perspective or what have you.",
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                      "text": "But the one thing they have in common is they all were very narrowly defined and had very few people involved in the decision making.",
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                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "It was very top down, and that just sets you up for failure.",
                      "start": 1628.815,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 1633.375,
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                    {
                      "text": "So that's one, I would say, general pattern to think about.",
                      "start": 1633.695,
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                    {
                      "text": "So if you're in some very ambitious project and the people around most the tables making all these decisions do not look like the community",
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "Who you're serving, you're probably you have a higher chance of failure.",
                      "start": 1645.63,
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                      "text": "If just it's only a handful of people, you know, and one company, and you don't have good legal representation, you're probably setting yourself up for some major problems or being taken advantage of.",
                      "start": 1649.55,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, it goes back to that, which is this question of sort of pluralism or just cities are so are are one of the most magical, complex things that humans do.",
                      "start": 1663.275,
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                    {
                      "text": "And you need everybody, you know, sort of as Jane Jacobs talked about it, you need everybody involved in the making of it, in order to make it, you know, suitable for everybody.",
                      "start": 1679.035,
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                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "And that that there's a, it sounds really simple, but as a principle, if you think about that, that can help steer away from a lot of problems.",
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                      "text": "Alright.",
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                      "text": "So at this point, we were really just kind of warming up, you know, still kind of getting to it, to",
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                      "text": "takeaways.",
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                      "text": "We talked for a long time, a a good couple hours, so I'm trying to bring out the most direct points that Daniel raised while also giving it a good amount of setup.",
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                      "text": "In a recent episode, I I think I mentioned that project in Toronto, an Internet focused development on the waterfront that that is planned to be.",
                      "start": 1727.55,
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                      "text": "Involves Sidewalk Labs, which is part of Alphabet, which is the parent company of Google.",
                      "start": 1736.315,
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                      "text": "So it's supposed to be a place of living and business served by all of these tech efficiencies.",
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                      "text": "And I'll refer back to that Laura Bliss, CityLab article because it goes into it.",
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                      "text": "And so does another piece I'll link to in the show notes, that was posted on Medium.",
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                      "text": "It seems to throw a lot of questions at the process of what should be a big civic achievement that heavily involves private parties.",
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                      "text": "You could say the same about any private development or subdivision, but this one has a heavy focus on technologies that people will ideally use in their daily lives with tons of data being gathered to analyze it all.",
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                    {
                      "text": "It could be awesome.",
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                      "text": "I have no personal reason to think it won't be.",
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                      "text": "I'm just pointing to some of the skepticism about the heavy involvement of private tech companies in shaping something build as being so influential on the public space.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I don't know.",
                      "start": 1787.985,
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                    {
                      "text": "Let me know if I'm wrong about that.",
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                    {
                      "text": "The description of the project says it's using, quote, forward thinking urban design and new digital technology to create people centered neighborhoods that achieve precedent setting levels of sustainability, affordability, mobility, and economic opportunity.",
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                      "text": "Waterfront Toronto was a partner and it's a government entity.",
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                      "text": "I guess this is just a way of saying that plans to develop new techie neighborhoods, places of living with giant tech companies will probably be met with questions about how people centered it's really going to be.",
                      "start": 1811.23,
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                    {
                      "text": "Again, just pointing it out and doing so may be good for the process, one might say.",
                      "start": 1822.985,
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                      "text": "And what we'll get to here shortly is a list, a takeaway list of questions that any city manager or urban planner or project official or whoever can ask in the interest of the human centralization piece of smart city projects, or really any civic tech initiative.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Real quick though, one point that Daniel made that stood out had to do with the movements we're seeing like Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement.",
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                      "text": "Maybe particularly the Me Too movement, meaning there's this issue between technology and consent.",
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                      "text": "And the elevated public interest in these issues and conversations about consent and human impact and of equity and inclusion could amplify those sentiments as they may relate to technology and, for example, data gathering sensors.",
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                      "text": "And this is kind of, you know, kind of become becoming increasingly, apparent in this question of technology and in the growing new movement around civil rights between the issues that people who are facing with black lives, the Black Lives Matters movement, and the Me Too or the, you know, the new movement against sexual violence Right.",
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                      "text": "And discrimination and sexism, and the tremendous energy that's going around that.",
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                      "text": "One of the things that it connects to this whole smart city dimension and the technology question is a lot of these technology deals are involving terms and conditions that are really nonconsensual.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "You know?",
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                      "text": "So if you think about your Facebook and your social media and the things that are being done with your data, right?",
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                      "text": "Now, yes, technically, you hit agree and you sign to those terms and conditions.",
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                      "text": "Sure.",
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                      "text": "But if you read every term and condition, yeah.",
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                      "text": "But they aren't really being presented to you as an option.",
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                      "text": "You can't revoke those.",
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                      "text": "You can't opt out.",
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                      "text": "It's kind of all or nothing in most cases.",
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                      "text": "Right.",
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                      "text": "So in general, especially in The United States, it brings up this big question of consent.",
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                      "text": "And so there's a sort of, I think, another case where having bringing in the question of wisdom of how do we wisely make sure that we're increasing consent.",
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                      "text": "Consent as a general governing principle is I think what the Me too movement you know, that's been ten years in the making now, but really kind of has just exploded this year, is offering to the sort of raising this larger question about consent in general, not just between, relating to sexual violence and harassment Yeah.",
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                      "end": 1988.125
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But relating to the body and the skin of the city.",
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                      "text": "You know, how do we create a consensual city where everyone's rights are respected?",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "You know, there's been a lot of heady, you know, conversation.",
                      "start": 2000.95,
                      "end": 2003.35
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2003.35,
                      "end": 2003.59
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "We were talking about all these big picture ideas, and Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2003.59,
                      "end": 2005.99
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                    {
                      "text": "And that's part of part of wisdom is having an enlarged sense of your connection to everything.",
                      "start": 2006.15,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2013.6649,
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                    }
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "That's part of, I think, where, one of the aspects of compassion is it's not just about me, you know?",
                      "start": 2013.985,
                      "end": 2019.7649
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's about you and everyone else.",
                      "start": 2020.065,
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                    {
                      "text": "Everything.",
                      "start": 2023.2799,
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                    {
                      "text": "And not just humans, but all of life on this planet.",
                      "start": 2024.1599,
                      "end": 2027.44
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2027.44,
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So that's big.",
                      "start": 2027.6799,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2028.5599,
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                    {
                      "text": "That's heady and that's also abstract.",
                      "start": 2028.7999,
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                    {
                      "text": "So a lot of people may be saying, you know, who cares about, you know, this idealistic talk.",
                      "start": 2030.24,
                      "end": 2035.485
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2035.725,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Now that's, of course, where policy comes from.",
                      "start": 2036.845,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2038.6849,
                      "end": 2038.845
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "This is the sort of frameworks.",
                      "start": 2038.845,
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                    {
                      "text": "So just to bring it down home, policy is that broker, you know, that puts in practical terms these big principles and actually makes them possible to come down to be turned into laws and regulations and ethical conduct, social codes, and things like this.",
                      "start": 2040.285,
                      "end": 2059.07
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So what I what I think would what I would wanna do is say, like, I here's some there's some questions that you could ask right now about the projects, that you're considering or you're working on or maybe, you know, from a post mortem standpoint Yeah.",
                      "start": 2061.29,
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "You know, a project that maybe you just did.",
                      "start": 2074.845,
                      "end": 2076.845
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                    {
                      "text": "So So so",
                      "start": 2076.845,
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "a city manager or a planner or somebody like that, these are things that they could run through.",
                      "start": 2077.27,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2080.9502,
                      "end": 2081.27
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2081.27,
                      "end": 2081.59
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So let's let's let's let's kinda do something.",
                      "start": 2081.59,
                      "end": 2083.9102
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's like wherever you are right now listening to this, you can, think about a project that you're that you're doing or about to do or have done.",
                      "start": 2083.9102,
                      "end": 2093.7048
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So let's go through these questions and just think, you know, first thought, best thought, whatever comes to mind.",
                      "start": 2093.9248,
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And, of course, you can think about these longer.",
                      "start": 2099.285,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But even just right now in the course of this, let's go through a handful of questions.",
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                      "end": 2107.33
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So question number one.",
                      "start": 2108.03,
                      "end": 2109.87
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                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2109.87,
                      "end": 2110.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "What is the problem to which this technology is a solution?",
                      "start": 2110.51,
                      "end": 2115.25
                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So right there, that that could, you know, that could take you could take your team and spend an hour with that question.",
                      "start": 2115.47,
                      "end": 2120.325
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Absolutely.",
                      "start": 2120.325,
                      "end": 2120.825
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Question number two, whose problem is it?",
                      "start": 2121.445,
                      "end": 2124.585
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "K?",
                      "start": 2124.645,
                      "end": 2125.0452
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2125.0452,
                      "end": 2125.445
                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Question number three, which people and what institutions might be most seriously harmed by a technology solution?",
                      "start": 2125.445,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, right there, you know, is again, this is the thing is sometimes you you solve one thing in in one place, but then all of a sudden it creates another problem.",
                      "start": 2133.74,
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                    }
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2140.8599,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "These are what we call, you know, secondary effects.",
                      "start": 2141.18,
                      "end": 2143.44
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                    {
                      "text": "And there's a lot of research on this.",
                      "start": 2143.98,
                      "end": 2146.0598
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                    {
                      "text": "And actually, there's a lot of research in media studies and communication studies and anthropology and science and technology studies and sociology and anthropology on the impacts of technology.",
                      "start": 2146.0598,
                      "end": 2158.745
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "The unintend quote unquote unintended but very well researched and quite well documented existing known effects of different types of societal changes or technologies and or even potentially ways to help you detect things that are truly unknown.",
                      "start": 2158.8052,
                      "end": 2176.385
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But you could at least get hunches to say, well, we expect that it's gonna this disruption here is gonna create a new problematic disruption over there.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2184.145,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Now I could ask for an example, but I mean, I think any of us could just fill in the blank with 20 things right now, you know?",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2190.53,
                      "end": 2190.85
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, my my my head is short circuiting right now with different examples of of this.",
                      "start": 2190.85,
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, you think about well, here's a positive example.",
                      "start": 2198.05,
                      "end": 2200.53
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Sure.",
                      "start": 2200.53,
                      "end": 2200.77
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2200.77,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So the smartphone in many ways has revived radio.",
                      "start": 2201.01,
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                    {
                      "text": "So the reason why we're doing a podcast and people are listening to it and a lot of people, especially those of us that are Gen X and millennial, we probably haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times Right.",
                      "start": 2205.335,
                      "end": 2218.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or not that often.",
                      "start": 2218.8298,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "I used to work in radio and haven't listened to broadcast radio in recent times.",
                      "start": 2219.79,
                      "end": 2222.67
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2222.67,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2223.0698,
                      "end": 2223.3098
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, you know, there's, you know, there's a shrinkage.",
                      "start": 2223.3098,
                      "end": 2226.43
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, in in journalism across the board, there's been a contraction.",
                      "start": 2226.43,
                      "end": 2229.49
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                    {
                      "text": "But when when it comes to audio, the smartphone has been what has driven this complete renaissance that we're seeing now in basically sort of this sort of campfire, like, huddling around the fire and having conversations that are what I find about what I like about podcasts is you end up having much deeper information sharing than on broadcast television or or your typical, you know, news radio.",
                      "start": 2229.995,
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                    {
                      "text": "Question number five.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "What sort of people and institutions might acquire special economic and political power because of a technological change?",
                      "start": 2257.7048,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So that's that's related.",
                      "start": 2265.065,
                      "end": 2266.365
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2266.4248,
                      "end": 2266.7449
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, kind of bringing more specific focusing to the to the matter.",
                      "start": 2266.7449,
                      "end": 2272.045
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                    {
                      "text": "Again, these five questions right here, you can take a lot of time thinking about them.",
                      "start": 2272.1848,
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                      "text": "Question six.",
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                      "text": "What changes in language are being enforced by new technologies and what is being gained and lost by such changes?",
                      "start": 2278.32,
                      "end": 2286.1
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                    {
                      "text": "So initially, you may say, well, what does that have to do with, you know, that's a language.",
                      "start": 2287.635,
                      "end": 2292.855
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                    {
                      "text": "How significant can that be?",
                      "start": 2293.235,
                      "end": 2295.075
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, in a lot of the sort of, positives, you know, social good, technology conversations, you know, you hear people talking about us living.",
                      "start": 2295.075,
                      "end": 2303.4
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                  ],
                  "start": 2276.8,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "We're now in a data centric society.",
                      "start": 2303.46,
                      "end": 2305.96
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                    {
                      "text": "Well, if you say that our current society is data centric, then that means there are other things that are not at the center that are that you're pushing away.",
                      "start": 2306.3398,
                      "end": 2315.245
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                    {
                      "text": "So you're pushing one thing into the center of focus with to the exclusion of other things.",
                      "start": 2315.245,
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                    {
                      "text": "Question seven.",
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                      "text": "So with this project that you have in mind or that you've done, is it contextual to the place?",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So think about the people, the neighborhood, the location of it, if it if it's spatial, or the general benefit of of who it's serving.",
                      "start": 2331.22,
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                    {
                      "text": "How relatable is it to the people that you're trying to help?",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Gotcha.",
                      "start": 2346.185,
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                      "text": "This is that's this is one of the biggest missteps that so many projects take is they take a generic solution or maybe a solution that worked elsewhere, and they don't adapt it or really make it relevant to the local place and people.",
                      "start": 2347.5452,
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                      "text": "That's even with the dissemination of information and and how we get how government gets information out there, the challenge of of putting something out there that's culturally resonant, that speaks the right language, that that, creates a visualization the right way, that someone can relate to, otherwise or so it's not a blur and so it's not a fog.",
                      "start": 2362.25,
                      "end": 2379.395
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                    {
                      "text": "And so it doesn't, you know, just perpetuate this whole thing of government being something behind closed doors that I don't necessarily feel like I have access to.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2386.0498,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, and this is the thing where it really also, helps bridge a lot of political divide because pretty much, you know, you get a lot of support for being more local.",
                      "start": 2386.2898,
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, regardless of which political, position you have.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "And and there are benefits, to that across the spectrum.",
                      "start": 2405.655,
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                    {
                      "text": "And and this is the one thing that we see in place making is that, you know, when you make it more connected to the place and people, it becomes more meaningful.",
                      "start": 2410.8098,
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                    {
                      "text": "And then that is also what then attracts more attachment and that means cultural value and economic value Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2417.29,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "To why should I go visit your town?",
                      "start": 2424.4648,
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                    {
                      "text": "Why should I pull off, you know, and make a trip or take a spontaneous pause to go into this town or that town?",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2433.345,
                      "end": 2433.845
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or even making it become a destination where that's my goal of my trip is to come and visit this place or that place",
                      "start": 2434.92,
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "for",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "any conversely, for you to come where I live.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2444.1199,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2444.44,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "If if we all kind of supply, provide these generic solutions, and And this is the trapping.",
                      "start": 2445.3198,
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                    {
                      "text": "A lot of technology is very generic.",
                      "start": 2451.105,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, a lot of these technology solutions are designed to be as mass usable as possible.",
                      "start": 2453.105,
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                    {
                      "text": "So they're almost not thinking about local adaptation and local customization.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2464.705,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So that's a big, sort of, yeah, sticking point with a lot of the sort of techno, centered, kind of techno blind, thinking.",
                      "start": 2465.88,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Question number eight, are local people collaborating in making and using it?",
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                    {
                      "text": "So if you think about your project, you know, to what degree did you involve local people in the creation of it, or to what degree are they actually using it?",
                      "start": 2479.72,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Now that one, I think, to some degree, a lot of people think about whenever a new thing is launched in a city, you wanna say, hey.",
                      "start": 2487.6548,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Are people using it?",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Do they like it?",
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                      "text": "Are they valuing it?",
                      "start": 2494.535,
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                    {
                      "text": "So most politicians and elected officials and their appointees, are often thinking about that a lot.",
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I would say that here's the twist is if you involve more people in the conception of it or in the making of it or in the envisioning of it, then you'll get more people using it.",
                      "start": 2504.97,
                      "end": 2513.395
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2513.395,
                      "end": 2513.7148
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2493.8948,
                  "end": 2513.7148,
                  "num_words": 62.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Because it'll be course corrected and and then you also have a higher chance of making it more local.",
                      "start": 2513.7148,
                      "end": 2520.535
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Question nine, does it support a human scale relationship or interaction?",
                      "start": 2521.9548,
                      "end": 2526.295
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So if you think about your project, you know, what we mean by human scale is that sense of, encouraging, you know, more face to face interaction with people.",
                      "start": 2527.1199,
                      "end": 2537.46
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So one of the things that, you know, that I recommend is that, let's say, you are evaluating proposals from your local innovation hub or, you know, eager beaver, you know, do gooders.",
                      "start": 2537.92,
                      "end": 2550.185
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2550.4849,
                      "end": 2550.805
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2513.7148,
                  "end": 2550.805,
                  "num_words": 93.0,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And they have a solution, but no one's involved in really collaborating.",
                      "start": 2550.805,
                      "end": 2554.6902
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And it's just the two guys who are recommending it.",
                      "start": 2554.6902,
                      "end": 2556.61
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2556.61,
                      "end": 2557.09
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, whatever that solution does, is something that, only very few people can access.",
                      "start": 2557.09,
                      "end": 2564.9502
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or let's say the solution is on a mobile phone.",
                      "start": 2565.33,
                      "end": 2568.55
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2550.805,
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                  "num_words": 47.0,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So it's a new app for your city.",
                      "start": 2568.645,
                      "end": 2570.405
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Okay.",
                      "start": 2570.405,
                      "end": 2570.725
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Well, a mobile phone inherently is a a personal individualistic experience.",
                      "start": 2570.725,
                      "end": 2576.325
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's you looking down at your screen.",
                      "start": 2576.325,
                      "end": 2578.425
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And sure, you can chat or message, but there's something very different than, let's say, if you added an urban screen or like a large, you know, projection screen in a in a community plaza or in the central park of your town.",
                      "start": 2578.565,
                      "end": 2591.6602
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2568.645,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2591.8,
                      "end": 2592.28
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then you had something that was a shared experience, you know?",
                      "start": 2592.28,
                      "end": 2596.315
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That is a human scale.",
                      "start": 2598.2148,
                      "end": 2599.4949
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's increasing the human scale relationship.",
                      "start": 2599.4949,
                      "end": 2601.415
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2601.415,
                      "end": 2601.7349
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2591.8,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So this is a thing where sometimes, you know, a lot of people say, well, everything should just be on a mobile phone.",
                      "start": 2601.7349,
                      "end": 2605.255
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's so efficient.",
                      "start": 2605.255,
                      "end": 2606.1
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Well, but that isn't always the only outcome or the only, you know, variable that you should be concerned with.",
                      "start": 2606.58,
                      "end": 2614.52
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So that's that's a that's that one there, you can again, the human scale relationship thing is another trap that a lot of people have, they they ignore or they don't pay attention to.",
                      "start": 2616.02,
                      "end": 2625.625
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2601.7349,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2625.625,
                      "end": 2625.865
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And",
                      "start": 2625.865,
                      "end": 2626.025
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2625.625,
                  "end": 2626.025,
                  "num_words": 2.0,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "they miss out on a lot of benefit.",
                      "start": 2626.025,
                      "end": 2628.425
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So sometimes that means with the same budget and the same duration that you spend on a project, if you think about increasing the human scale relationship outcomes of that project, you can often, depending on what it is, get a much bigger return on your time and investment.",
                      "start": 2628.425,
                      "end": 2645.71
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Question 10, does it increase face to face interaction?",
                      "start": 2647.29,
                      "end": 2651.2249
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Question, 11 is to what degree is the project open source?",
                      "start": 2651.4448,
                      "end": 2655.9448
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Now that one's a tricky one.",
                      "start": 2656.2449,
                      "end": 2657.6848
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2626.025,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2657.6848,
                      "end": 2658.005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and what does open source mean to you?",
                      "start": 2658.005,
                      "end": 2659.525
                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So open source, there's a bunch of different definitions, and there are so many other podcasts that get into the open source movement, but I would just refer people to go read up on it.",
                      "start": 2659.525,
                      "end": 2672.74
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But the short answer is just is it open?",
                      "start": 2672.74,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Is the code of your software are you using or what I mean by it here is are you contributing to or using or making your code open?",
                      "start": 2676.4949,
                      "end": 2685.635
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Now there are many different ways to go about this.",
                      "start": 2686.015,
                      "end": 2689.07
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And so I'm not I don't I really don't like to be prescriptive.",
                      "start": 2689.1301,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2659.525,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And that's why a lot of these questions are sort of they're more like guidelines and principles.",
                      "start": 2692.4102,
                      "end": 2696.03
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, you know, if you're using public money to provide a public benefit, there's a really good argument to say that you should use, and contribute to or offer open source software solutions because then other cities in your or institutions in your own city, in your region, in your state, in your country, in the planet, you know, could potentially take advantage of this, and there's some benefit to that.",
                      "start": 2697.05,
                      "end": 2720.94
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Now, conversely, depending on what you're doing, you know, when it comes to data Yeah.",
                      "start": 2720.94,
                      "end": 2727.68
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Just as a caution, is open data is not so simple.",
                      "start": 2727.82,
                      "end": 2731.36
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "There's so many issues about privacy and, you know, again, back to this goes back to the question of consent Right.",
                      "start": 2731.5,
                      "end": 2737.355
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2692.4102,
                  "end": 2737.355,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Where when it comes to the data side of things, there's a whole host of considerations you need to make for anonymizing and protecting potentially identifiable information.",
                      "start": 2737.4749,
                      "end": 2748.295
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2748.515,
                      "end": 2748.84
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And again, there's a lot of material online about this.",
                      "start": 2749.08,
                      "end": 2751.24
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So if that's if one of your projects involve the collecting or usage of a lot of, resident data, you should definitely look up that, to help you guide you in a in a wiser direction.",
                      "start": 2751.24,
                      "end": 2764.1848
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "There's a lot of open data platforms out there right now too.",
                      "start": 2764.1848,
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                  ],
                  "start": 2764.1848,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2766.425,
                      "end": 2766.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, there that's sort of very a matured aspect of this overall kind of, tech and, you know, civic movement.",
                      "start": 2766.665,
                      "end": 2774.425
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2774.425,
                      "end": 2774.925
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's that's kind of their their many wise voices have joined in on on course correcting what's been happening there.",
                      "start": 2775.2249,
                      "end": 2782.07
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                    {
                      "text": "So quest so the next question is, is there capacity building?",
                      "start": 2782.53,
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                  ],
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                    {
                      "text": "So in your project that you're thinking about in your head, you know, that you've just done or that you're doing, is to what degree is that project helping to demonstrate, model, or build the capacity of the people who are involved in making it or and or the people who are involved in using it?",
                      "start": 2787.09,
                      "end": 2804.095
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So you're helping elevate, the discussion, the inclusion, the intelligence, the wisdom, etcetera",
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2811.09,
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Of it.",
                      "start": 2811.4102,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And that so that's another way to think about it, that again, it's kind of like initially may you may think, well, you know, how does that relate?",
                      "start": 2811.73,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Why should I care about that?",
                      "start": 2818.705,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or why should I how should I relate to that?",
                      "start": 2819.665,
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                    {
                      "text": "But if you're trying to change the practices in your institution, in your department, if you're looking to help create new policies or culture in your city when it comes to things like environment or education, or public health, you do wanna think about the capacity for adopting new changes in practices.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And so in one way is I would say this is one of the most important questions because in the twenty first century, you know, like we started, you know, there are so many, changes that we need to make in order to come to a sustainable, equitable life where we can all live together and figure out how to live together in a equitable, sustainable way.",
                      "start": 2843.135,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, so much of that is about capacity building to transform and change.",
                      "start": 2864.1099,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And two more questions here.",
                      "start": 2872.115,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, is it connecting, to existing community goals?",
                      "start": 2873.955,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So again, this is part of that, like, you know, the good intentions, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 2884.23,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Your your well intended excellent project that may have a great outcome may be isolated from the existing goals of the community.",
                      "start": 2885.43,
                      "end": 2895.1301
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Sure.",
                      "start": 2895.19,
                      "end": 2895.51
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So this goes back to, you know, our people, who's at the table, and who's involved in collaborating and making it.",
                      "start": 2895.51,
                      "end": 2900.575
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So and I intentionally left this sort of in there twice because it's asking the same question from two different angles because it's really important to get that right.",
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                      "text": "So if you missed out the first one, if you're like, screw it.",
                      "start": 2907.595,
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                    {
                      "text": "We're not gonna have local people collaborating in it, making it, and using it.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Right.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Well, if you say is it connected to existing goals, which again may relate to your electoral success or your, general, you know, review and performance review assessment",
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2926.5752,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "You know, of your, responsibilities in in city governance.",
                      "start": 2926.8152,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's another way to kinda keep you on the right track.",
                      "start": 2932.3352,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then here's the last one.",
                      "start": 2935.0552,
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                    {
                      "text": "And and this one is I mean, these are all very important, but this last one is another gotcha that so many people drop.",
                      "start": 2937.24,
                      "end": 2943.42
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then it diminishes or ends up being a big failure point, which is, again, for the so for the project that you're thinking about doing, especially if you're a next project or the one that currently is in play, is how well is ongoing iteration planned for and supported.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So especially with technology, and but with a lot of other things, is you can get all excited about launching.",
                      "start": 2959.235,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And if you don't have the maintenance and the budget and the prioritization to say, well, we have to fix the bugs and make improvements based on feedback from the users or in the park if we need to change the seating arrangement around or in the city street grid, you know, if we need to change the signaling and what have you.",
                      "start": 2968.39,
                      "end": 2987.4148
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, there's there's it's a constant living thing.",
                      "start": 2987.4148,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, cities cities are people.",
                      "start": 2989.895,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, therefore, cities are always growing and changing and living and moving.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And, it's not just about the launch.",
                      "start": 2997.16,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so a lot of the tech hype, basically just kind of raises this silver bullet thing where people think that technology is the object.",
                      "start": 2999.48,
                      "end": 3009.925
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 3010.0652,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's the software or it's the hardware.",
                      "start": 3010.465,
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                    {
                      "text": "It's it's not really.",
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                    {
                      "text": "90% of quote unquote technology is the practices.",
                      "start": 3014.385,
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                    {
                      "text": "That's right.",
                      "start": 3017.8252,
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                    {
                      "text": "It's the shift of the practices within",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "the",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "the different ways that we govern and relate to each other and to the way that we communicate.",
                      "start": 3021.63,
                      "end": 3027.65
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And that's that's it's one of the most difficult things for people to understand because so many other things that we're familiar with, in the sort of pre technology sort of city governance were about objects.",
                      "start": 3028.5898,
                      "end": 3043.285
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It was about the hardware object and that's is it is",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "what it is.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "It's just that physical thing.",
                      "start": 3047.01,
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                    {
                      "text": "But the nature of digital technology, and this goes into a whole other direction, that is a big part of my work, which is the sort of media studies, the communication studies, just basically bringing in and elevating and capacity building for folks in cities to get them to understand what is really the nature of digital which is inherently immaterial.",
                      "start": 3048.17,
                      "end": 3072.515
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's it's a process.",
                      "start": 3072.98,
                      "end": 3074.1199
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, technology is process Right.",
                      "start": 3074.18,
                      "end": 3076.54
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "More so than the object.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 3078.66,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, that that just opens up a whole other way of looking at governance and management and responsibility and stewardship.",
                      "start": 3079.38,
                      "end": 3089.915
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And again, this is another area where, you know, we need more academics and the the educating institutions, need to jump in on this because it's such a different paradigm than the way economics has been standardly, you know, normally defined, and governance.",
                      "start": 3090.375,
                      "end": 3106.65
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Although on one on one level, I I find increasingly policy folks and governance folks are once you start explaining it to people in this way, if they aren't already on it, they get process because so much of governance from the policy making perspective is all about the process.",
                      "start": 3107.59,
                      "end": 3122.685
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And the software people, the really savvy user centered design, civic design folks, they also get this.",
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                      "text": "But I mean, even even with that, you know, so, like, when the radio was invented, right, the the the significance of radio was not the invention of the vacuum tubes and the device.",
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                      "text": "And now we podcast.",
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                      "text": "Bringing it back.",
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                      "text": "Where, where can people learn more about you and the the work you do?",
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                      "text": "Well, right now, the the best way really is Twitter.",
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                      "text": "You know, this space is changing so fast and evolving so quickly that, and and globally that Twitter pretty much, in in my observation and experience, is it's that's the best way to keep abreast of all of this.",
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                      "text": "So That's what John do.",
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                      "text": "Hashtag wise cities, placemaking, and and there's all sort of a lot of hashtags you can follow.",
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                      "text": "So if you kinda jump in on the tweet streams, you can dive in and, swim along.",
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                      "text": "And we so for those of you that are really, you know, wanting more of this, we need more conversation in this space, you know.",
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                      "text": "So hit me up with any questions, and, or examples too.",
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                      "text": "Those are the two things I'm looking to collect.",
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                      "text": "So this is basically place making in the twenty first century, you know.",
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                      "text": "But, you know, in in whatever, five years or ten years, we won't be thinking about digital this or digital that.",
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                      "text": "You know, even though most of all the governance, the tool that was used",
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                      "text": "It was expressed on printed law books and case, you know, log studies and and newspapers and legal journals.",
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                      "text": "So the technology that was used was print and on paper, but no one said I'm I'm an expert, you know, or I'm studying paper governance, you know.",
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                      "text": "So it was just governance.",
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                      "text": "Mhmm.",
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                      "text": "So, but we're in a transition stage right now.",
                      "start": 3349.89,
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                      "text": "So we're very conscious of this shift of tech of technology from paper to digital.",
                      "start": 3352.93,
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                    {
                      "text": "So it's a useful term to kinda just signal that we're, we're changing and we're intentionally working on making a, what I would say is a wise transition.",
                      "start": 3359.65,
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                    {
                      "text": "To this, to the,",
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                      "text": "all these new technologies.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Daniel really appreciate this.",
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                      "text": "It's been awesome.",
                      "start": 3373.065,
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Thank you for having me.",
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                      "text": "Thanks for listening.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I'll have links to Daniel LaTore and his work in case you'd like to learn more in the show notes with this episode at soundcloud.com/municipalequation.",
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                      "text": "So this, as Daniel said, was more of a heady thought process kind of episode, but I'm glad we included that list of questions that you can ask in this wise city kind of spirit.",
                      "start": 3425.2249,
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                    {
                      "text": "By the way, I'll have a link to Daniel's Twitter page and pinned at the top of it is that entire list written out so you can use it, share it, whatever.",
                      "start": 3435.01,
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                    {
                      "text": "So what are your thoughts as we go through this big revolution of smart cities, which has so many angles and applications that it's hard to encapsulate sometimes, but absolutely often well intentioned as Daniel said.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So what are you thinking right now?",
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                    {
                      "text": "Let me know.",
                      "start": 3456.915,
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                    {
                      "text": "Record a voice memo on your smartphone and email it to me.",
                      "start": 3457.635,
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                    {
                      "text": "I'm at bbrown@nclm.org.",
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                    {
                      "text": "If you don't wanna talk aloud, just type it out, and I'll include it on a future episode.",
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                      "text": "It's all about feedback and conversation and exploring different ideas in the space of cities and towns in the face of change.",
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                    {
                      "text": "There's not a one size fits all.",
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                    {
                      "text": "If you need more background on this whole smart cities thing, there's a world of information online about it, but you can also simply listen to past episodes of this podcast, like episode 38 and episode 18, soundcloud.com/municipalequation, or nclm.org/municipalequation.",
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                    {
                      "text": "NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Keep in touch, and we'll be back with a new episode in a couple weeks.",
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