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These would then drive economic growth. Bridging the urban rural divide. One of the most standout political, economic, and cultural topics out there today. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change. From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, episode 48. So this isn't the first time we've done an episode on this whole urban versus rural thing. Within the state, there's there tends to be, just tension. That was Ada Smith of the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange from episode 36, which we called Urban Cowboy two. It was about a program that literally brings the urban and rural together. It's called RUCs, or the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange. It's where people from rural areas of Kentucky get together with people from the urban areas and diffuse their misconceptions of one another, and even develop actual partnerships where these two different areas help each other out. That includes governmental partnerships. And it certainly irons out stereotypes. I feel like, at least for me, a lot of the, rural or urban conversations that have been happening on the national level, you know, obviously reinforce a lot of stereotypes specifically about political leaning. And I think that what I have felt like has been true with Rex is that just none of that holds up at all. And I think that what we know we have to do even across, you know, within a political spectrum is that people just don't know each other over these huge states. They, like, literally don't have a sense of each other. And so I think that, you know, regardless of the, like, getting people to talk across the aisle, I think there's also a real need for folks to just spend some time with each other, to have experience with each other, to eat food together, to go hear a band together. You know? And I and I think what's hard about that is that it takes time. And I think, obviously, we're in a moment where people want very quick, change to happen. And I think we know that change takes time, and it takes relationships. And as Savannah said, it takes trust. And and I think we have to, to to really shift, infra like, structural barriers that are in place. We have to be able to wrestle with each other, and we can't do that if we don't even have a sense of where someone's from. You're getting those connections, that network, those relationships, and you're really seeing parts of the state in a very nuanced way. Bookmark that word nuanced because it's pretty operative in this episode. Ada Smith's words just then were hopeful but realistic. The opportunities are there to relieve tension in the urban rural divide, but it's not gonna lift overnight, takes a lot of work, and really it's still hardening this narrative. More and more people are talking about the urban rural divide. And I haven't seen it encapsulated quite as deftly as this, this introduction to a report by Christiana McFarland at the National League of Cities. The facts are stark. Economic change and recovery in our nation have resulted in vastly different opportunities and outcomes for individuals and families based on where they live. An urban rural divide narrative is solidifying around these trends. It's one that touts or bemoans the all consuming growth of our nation's largest cities, and laments rural communities as devoid of economic potential. It juxtaposes urban and rural areas, pitting them against each other and ultimately, isolating them from each other. And then she says this, the narrative, whether political, economic, or cultural, ignores nuance within broader urban rural trends. All while largely avoiding solutions for more sustainable growth. The report that comes from is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide, and it's an outcome of a research collaborative between the National League of Cities and State Municipal Leagues, including the North Carolina League that brings you this podcast. So we're gonna talk with the primary author right now. This is Christiana McFarland. I'm the research director with the National League of Cities here in DC. Well, let's just set out some context. When we're talking about the rural urban divide, what do we mean generally? The urban rural divide has a lot of, has a lot of meaning to a lot of different people. And I think that was one of the reasons why we were really interested in doing this report. Generally speaking, when we talk about the urban rural divide, there are parts of the country that are highly rural with, with less access to opportunity. And then there are highly connected parts of the country, namely in urban areas that have more opportunity. Once you start to get to the nuances of that, that's where I think the, the general definitions that we hold in our mind start to fall apart a little bit. Right. Right. Well, you know, where do we see the divide the most? Is there a breakdown of states or regions of the country where this is most prevalent? We're seeing divides between urban and rural communities across the country. Interestingly, you know, it really depends on what aspects of the urban rural divide that we're talking about. When we talk about broadband access, for example, we're seeing divides across the country. Yeah. That that's a really good point. You know, when we say either urban or rural, you know, people kinda conceptually know what we're talking about. Like, urban is the skyscraper in the downtown and rural is the farm and and the country store. But are there actual definitions or thresholds for what those words really mean? I mean, can we measure up to the limit of when rural is no longer rural, for example? Yeah. Somewhat. So there are a couple of different definitions that people and analysts and others use when they when they talk about urban and rural. So one is metropolitan versus non metropolitan. That's sort of a, OMB definition of the extent to which areas are within metropolitan areas or they're not within metropolitan areas. The challenge there is then you also have, the census also has a definition of urban and rural. And when you compare that definition, which accounts primarily for things like density and population, you find that there actually are a number of rural communities according to the census designation that lie within metropolitan areas of the OMB definition. So this is where it starts to get a little hairy. Yep. Gotcha. Gotcha. You know, we also get into the language of, you know, urban versus rural, like it's an adversarial relationship. But, you know, looking at the report, there's a suggestion that, you know, individual economic futures are, to some degree, bound together between urban and rural. Could you talk about the the sort of impetus for this report? You you you mentioned earlier that, the sort of lack of clarity between what we actually mean by urban rural divide. But, what does this report get into? From my perspective, there is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse. And and like you mentioned, it's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural. And I think, that's primarily because there's a lot of sort of political baggage that's coming with that, and a whole host of reasons that essentially plays rural communities as devoid of economic potential and urban areas as, as sort of the hotspots in the country. Now, to some extent, of course, some of that is true. But we really wanted to dig a little bit deeper because, if we know anything working with and in local governments is that, issues are hardly black and white. So we wanted to really dig down a little bit and better understand is this, is this the whole picture? So that was sort of the first reason. The second is, like you said, yes, the conversations are typically very adversarial, isolating urban and rural areas from each other. And not only that, but what we haven't gotten to, although we've gotten a lot of sort of explanation about what people think urban versus rural means, we haven't gotten to solutions. And again, when we're working with local governments and cities in particular and towns across the country, they're they're doers. They want to know how to how to fix the problem. And if there are challenges, what does it actually mean to to move forward? So that was sort of the other area. When we put the economic lens specifically on the urban rural divide from, from the National League of Cities perspective, that really helped illuminate a path forward for us when we're talking about solutions. So, what are some of the key elements of the economic urban rural divide? And then also what are some of the opportunities that we're finding in some places across the country? And and how can that inform strategies for other parts of the country that are struggling? So yeah. So so what are you seeing in terms of have have there been regional initiatives, like actual urban rural initiatives out there that government has played a role in that you can maybe scale out to, to other areas? Yeah. There's quite a bit that's happening. So primarily what we're seeing that was sort of a surprise finding to us in the report is that many rural parts of states across the country are outpacing their urban counterparts when it comes to things like high value business growth. And what we mean by that is businesses that are in the traded sector, businesses that are exporting outside the community and bringing new new money into the community to really help bolster the economic growth of the place. So that I would say is is a surprising finding and one that can help inform strategies moving forward. The other piece is prosperity growth. And when we say prosperity growth, we mean the contribution of a particular area to the state GDP. We found in 25 states across the country that rural areas are are outpacing their urban areas in terms of prosperity growth in particular states. So that means, urban rural areas are driving economic growth very strongly in states across the country, at least 25 of them. So when we ask the question about why is this happening, what we find, in many parts of the country, if you look at North Dakota, for example, obviously, there's, there's fracking that is happening in more rural parts of the state, but we're seeing some high growth happening in urban parts of the state. So digging a little bit deeper, what that reveals to us is that the strong growth in urban parts of the state are actually derived from rural economies. So when we think about the legal services that are needed for the fracking industry, and other services related to, to natural resources industries that are happening in more rural parts of the state, those those elements of the industry are happening in urban areas. But it is tied to the rural rural parts of the state. Similarly, when we think about the agricultural industry and what types of jobs that that's developing, obviously, there are production jobs that are happening in the rural parts of the state. We're seeing this in California, in the Sacramento region. But when you actually look at the trail of jobs and economic activity, it extends well into the urban parts of the state, particularly urban parts of that region that are, that are benefiting from the growth that's happening in the rural parts of of the region. So, kinda going back into what's led up to the conversation about the the rural urban divide or rural versus urban, I I think about access to resources and, you know, who's got what, who's able to do what, broadband, educational resources. What are some of the contributing factors when it comes to the the perceived gulf between urban and rural areas? Yeah. I think you're right. Access and connection really is at the heart of what we're talking about here. When, you know, when we were saying before there's is a lack of nuance around the urban rural divide, I would say one piece of the sort of national conversation that, that is accurate is the the divide around broadband. So if you haven't listened to the previous episode, episode 47, please do. It's all about the potential for high quality broadband access to close the rural urban divide, bring some parity, truly connect everything. And we also talk about how to get there. When I said earlier that this NLC report was done alongside state municipal leagues, this is where the league that I work for really played a part. It quotes us as saying, there is a role for government to play in this policy area, which up until now has been left entirely to the private sector. So we and the public are seeing broadband as twenty first century infrastructure. No longer just something nice you can subscribe to, like Dollar Shave Club, not an advertisement. Broadband and especially high quality broadband, like with gigabit speed fiber, is so essential for business growth, healthcare, and so much more that there's an obvious public interest. It can help to equalize a lot of parts of this country if we had the widespread access needed. Broadband is essential to everything that we do, you know, in this country, whether it's economic activity, you know, personal opportunity, opportunities for families to improve their their livelihoods, broadband access is at the center of it all. And certainly what we're seeing in states across the country is that rural areas are at a severe disadvantage, and that urban areas, certainly outpace rural counterparts when it comes to access to broadband. We know in Minnesota, for example, there is a program called border to border, initiative that's happening in the state of Minnesota. And they are they're executing and implementing, a series of recommendations to, to expand broadband access to the entire state. So that's one example of of what's happening. Is that a is that a state driven program or is it intergovernmental or Mhmm. It's yeah, it's state driven obviously with, with significant, implementation partners at the local level. So here's how that works. According to the report, more than 252,000 households in Minnesota, which is 12% of the state, don't have any access to high speed Internet. Gotta repeat, that means limited or no access to telemedicine, e learning, job connections, and so on, while businesses are cramped to compete because the large transfer of data online is a totally normal thing now in the business world. So the Minnesota legislature declared that their state, border to border, is going to have high speed broadband. So they rolled out what's called the Border to Border Broadband Development Grant Program. And it's going for unserved or underserved areas where it costs more money for a private Internet service provider to roll out service, meaning there's not much interest in the eyes of a private provider to roll it out there, at least not without resources to help out. So this state program in Minnesota helps to mitigate those costs and risks. So it provides matching funds to ISPs that agree to extend service to these otherwise hard to serve areas. This past November, the state announced more than $26,000,000 for 39 projects across the state to connect nearly 10,000 households, 2,200 businesses, and 60 community institutions, all of which were either underserved or unserved. In North Carolina, we're encouraging public private partnerships where public entities such as local governments are able to do what they do best and provide the infrastructure needed for a private ISP to operate or boost service where they otherwise wouldn't. I think the key with broadband access is that, leaving it to the market generally is not a solution that works, that government needs to be involved because there are certainly there's a challenge there for the market to provide the access that's necessary for, for all areas of of states, in particular, rural rural areas that that may not have the density that's needed, by, by by private companies in order to bring to bring access to to certain parts of the state. So, certainly, government intervention seems to be, a necessary component of expanding access. Thinking about other resources that seem to differ between urban and rural, and not necessarily, but I I think about education. Broadband, of course, can can factor into that as well. But even before that, when it comes to, you know, connectivity and all that, what's what are the dynamics there between educational resources in urban versus rural areas? And I know in rural, I mean, that's gotta figure into, you know, the workforce development, I guess, too. Yeah. There are significant divides when it comes to education. And like you said, having access to broadband or not having access to broadband is another key driver when it comes to education as well. Mhmm. We're seeing obviously higher educational attainment in urban areas across the country. We the map is spotted with, with places like Vermont, for example, that have, that have higher attainment in rural parts, and that's due in large part to a high concentration of rural based universities. Mhmm. So, so, yeah, we're seeing that there certainly continues to be a divide when it comes to education. And being able to ameliorate that certainly will depend in, at least in some part, on broadband access as well. So, I mean so the the broadband piece, I mean, that kinda permeates everything. Is there is there any findings in the report that are kind of independent of broadband access? Just any even more legacy or traditional links between urban and rural or or or breaks between urban and rural that, that figure into, you know, recommendations or policies in this report? Yeah. When we think about population, of course, the population centers are in urban areas. I think, there is a lot of dynamics, particularly with, with new generations of workers wanting to have a stronger work life balance and wanting to be able to both have urban amenities, but as as well as access to some rural lifestyle elements like outdoors, for example. And so there's a lot of opportunity there. But again, it comes back to what is the, what is the availability both for jobs in particular places or at least access to jobs. And again, that gets back to the broadband issue. Could you talk a little bit more about the symbiosis between rural and urban areas when it comes to one serving the other or or the the, prosperity to some degree of of one kinda depending on the other and and how it's, you know, getting away from the the urban versus rural mindset can be beneficial when we just look at the region or the hub and spoke kind of mentality or where does that symbiosis work? Yeah. There's a there's a lot of interconnection between urban and rural communities in some places across the country. And what we're finding is that when that happens, that's when we're starting to see prosperity not only in more rural parts of states or in regions as a whole, but it is also lifting up, the prosperity and the growth for the entire state. So for example, we found that, there are three key ways that urban and rural areas can be economically interdependent with each other. And again, these would then drive, drive economic growth. The first is rural linkages to urban sort of clusters of economic activity. So, for example, if if there are if there's a key industry in an urban area and the rural community has, has sort of a a budding workforce or workforce on the cusp that is able to sort of tap into that, being able to make those strong economic connections, or even thinking about supply chain companies that can help service some of the urban, the urban focused economic activity. The other is urban linkages to rural clusters. And this this comes back around when we're talking about, in particular with agriculture. We're seeing sort of the heart of the economic activity happening in more rural parts of the state, but urban areas are benefiting. And when we say benefiting, it means that they're part of the value chain that is making, that's making that industry successful, in the state. So for example, when we're talking about Sacramento and specialty crops, right, this stuff gets a little in the weeds. But when you think about where, where sort of the actual production of of some of these crops is happening, obviously, that's more rural. But then when you think about what's the end product of some of those goods, it's it needs to have more processing to it. There needs to be transportation and distribution. And a lot of this is happening in the urban parts of the state and urban parts of the region. So we're seeing that connection to where the the core and the bulk of the economic activities actually starting in the rural parts of the state. Then when we're thinking specifically about rural areas that that seemingly don't have a connection to more urban parts of the state, that seem a little bit more disconnected, they really need to dig deep and think about their economic assets. And, what we found in a lot of places is that rural entrepreneurship is sprouting up across the country. And this is because, in in large part due to lack of opportunity for for people who are living there, the places that have been successful, we've seen examples, you know, across the country, specifically in Oregon, thinking about, how the urban urban area can serve not only as sort of an end market for for rural entrepreneurship. So if there are goods that are being produced in rural areas, and then, the market for those goods is the urban area. But a lot of rural entrepreneurs are thinking even beyond that. They're thinking globally. And how can they use the urban area to test or refine their product and continue to work on their products so that it can be brought to a global scale. And, again, we're seeing that in the the Portland area, particularly with with rural hops growers in Oregon relying on sort of the sophisticated taste of, of the urban consumers there to help them innovate and stay ahead of what, you know, stay stay ahead of the curve when it comes to sort of refined tastes in terms of, craft beer and so forth. And then that helps them obviously to sort of export more globally and to be more successful in that in that realm as well. I think the strategies that we're proposing in the report that are focused really on identifying what the interconnections are between urban and rural communities, rely on a broader understanding of how and where economic activity does take place and can take place. I think we traditionally have, notions particularly in economic development policy and program development around sort of industry clusters. This concept that, that there has to be a very tight density of economic activity in order for it to be successful. Now certainly some of that is very true and depending on the industries that's going to be true. But there are elements of it where if we think more more regionally, there can also be opportunities and opportunities that extend to more rural parts of the region that have yet to be tapped, and can be explored for future economic growth. Yeah. My sense is that what we were able to uncover in the report, is not just sort of more context around the urban rural divide, but it really is hope for more rural communities and Mhmm. Hope in terms of their opportunities that they have to to both think about their assets in different ways, and then also to partner and connect and think about how, the activity that's happening in urban parts of the state can, can relate back to what their, what their assets are. So from our perspective, it really, helps to lay the groundwork for economic development policy, economic development programs that are strongly focused on, on a regional context. The report is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide. You can find it at nlc.0rg. That was Christiana McFarland, the report's author. Also have it in the show notes at municipalequation.libsyn.com. Libsyn is spelled l I b s y n. Thanks for listening, but this is definitely one for feedback. So that's not the end of the conversation. Please tell me your thoughts. My email is bbrown@nclm.org, or you can connect with me on Twitter. The handle is at muniequation,@muniequation. If you'd like me to read your feedback on the show, please let me know. I'd love to. You can also speak your comment into a voice memo on your smartphone and send me the file so I can play your voice on the episode. We're headed toward our fiftieth episode. Again, this podcast comes out every other week at nclm.org/municipalequation. Of course, you can make it easy by simply subscribing on iTunes or on your favorite podcast app. And while you're at it, please consider leaving a five star review. That's good fuel for the podcast, and thank you to everybody who's already done that. Keep sharing your ideas for the show. We'll talk to you next time. 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There is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse. It's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural. We found that, there are three key ways that urban and rural areas can be economically interdependent with each other. These would then drive economic growth.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bridging the urban rural divide. One of the most standout political, economic, and cultural topics out there today. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change. From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, episode 48. So this isn't the first time we've done an episode on this whole urban versus rural thing.\n\nSpeaker 2: Within the state, there's there tends to be, just tension.\n\nSpeaker 0: That was Ada Smith of the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange from episode 36, which we called Urban Cowboy two. It was about a program that literally brings the urban and rural together. It's called RUCs, or the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange. It's where people from rural areas of Kentucky get together with people from the urban areas and diffuse their misconceptions of one another, and even develop actual partnerships where these two different areas help each other out. That includes governmental partnerships.\n\nAnd it certainly irons out stereotypes.\n\nSpeaker 2: I feel like, at least for me, a lot of the, rural or urban conversations that have been happening on the national level, you know, obviously reinforce a lot of stereotypes specifically about political leaning. And I think that what I have felt like has been true with Rex is that just none of that holds up at all. And I think that what we know we have to do even across, you know, within a political spectrum is that people just don't know each other over these huge states. They, like, literally don't have a sense of each other. And so I think that, you know, regardless of the, like, getting people to talk across the aisle, I think there's also a real need for folks to just spend some time with each other, to have experience with each other, to eat food together, to go hear a band together.\n\nYou know? And I and I think what's hard about that is that it takes time. And I think, obviously, we're in a moment where people want very quick, change to happen. And I think we know that change takes time, and it takes relationships. And as Savannah said, it takes trust.\n\nAnd and I think we have to, to to really shift, infra like, structural barriers that are in place. We have to be able to wrestle with each other, and we can't do that if we don't even have a sense of where someone's from. You're getting those connections, that network, those relationships, and you're really seeing parts of the state in a very nuanced way.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bookmark that word nuanced because it's pretty operative in this episode. Ada Smith's words just then were hopeful but realistic. The opportunities are there to relieve tension in the urban rural divide, but it's not gonna lift overnight, takes a lot of work, and really it's still hardening this narrative. More and more people are talking about the urban rural divide. And I haven't seen it encapsulated quite as deftly as this, this introduction to a report by Christiana McFarland at the National League of Cities.\n\nThe facts are stark. Economic change and recovery in our nation have resulted in vastly different opportunities and outcomes for individuals and families based on where they live. An urban rural divide narrative is solidifying around these trends. It's one that touts or bemoans the all consuming growth of our nation's largest cities, and laments rural communities as devoid of economic potential. It juxtaposes urban and rural areas, pitting them against each other and ultimately, isolating them from each other.\n\nAnd then she says this, the narrative, whether political, economic, or cultural, ignores nuance within broader urban rural trends. All while largely avoiding solutions for more sustainable growth. The report that comes from is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide, and it's an outcome of a research collaborative between the National League of Cities and State Municipal Leagues, including the North Carolina League that brings you this podcast. So we're gonna talk with the primary author right now.\n\nSpeaker 1: This is Christiana McFarland. I'm the research director with the National League of Cities here in DC.\n\nSpeaker 0: Well, let's just set out some context. When we're talking about the rural urban divide, what do we mean generally?\n\nSpeaker 1: The urban rural divide has a lot of, has a lot of meaning to a lot of different people. And I think that was one of the reasons why we were really interested in doing this report. Generally speaking, when we talk about the urban rural divide, there are parts of the country that are highly rural with, with less access to opportunity. And then there are highly connected parts of the country, namely in urban areas that have more opportunity. Once you start to get to the nuances of that, that's where I think the, the general definitions that we hold in our mind start to fall apart a little bit.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right. Right. Well, you know, where do we see the divide the most? Is there a breakdown of states or regions of the country where this is most prevalent?\n\nSpeaker 1: We're seeing divides between urban and rural communities across the country. Interestingly, you know, it really depends on what aspects of the urban rural divide that we're talking about. When we talk about broadband access, for example, we're seeing divides across the country.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. That that's a really good point. You know, when we say either urban or rural, you know, people kinda conceptually know what we're talking about. Like, urban is the skyscraper in the downtown and rural is the farm and and the country store. But are there actual definitions or thresholds for what those words really mean?\n\nI mean, can we measure up to the limit of when rural is no longer rural, for example?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Somewhat. So there are a couple of different definitions that people and analysts and others use when they when they talk about urban and rural. So one is metropolitan versus non metropolitan. That's sort of a, OMB definition of the extent to which areas are within metropolitan areas or they're not within metropolitan areas.\n\nThe challenge there is then you also have, the census also has a definition of urban and rural. And when you compare that definition, which accounts primarily for things like density and population, you find that there actually are a number of rural communities according to the census designation that lie within metropolitan areas of the OMB definition. So this is where it starts to get a little hairy. Yep.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gotcha. Gotcha. You know, we also get into the language of, you know, urban versus rural, like it's an adversarial relationship. But, you know, looking at the report, there's a suggestion that, you know, individual economic futures are, to some degree, bound together between urban and rural. Could you talk about the the sort of impetus for this report?\n\nYou you you mentioned earlier that, the sort of lack of clarity between what we actually mean by urban rural divide. But, what does this report get into?\n\nSpeaker 1: From my perspective, there is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse. And and like you mentioned, it's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural. And I think, that's primarily because there's a lot of sort of political baggage that's coming with that, and a whole host of reasons that essentially plays rural communities as devoid of economic potential and urban areas as, as sort of the hotspots in the country. Now, to some extent, of course, some of that is true. But we really wanted to dig a little bit deeper because, if we know anything working with and in local governments is that, issues are hardly black and white.\n\nSo we wanted to really dig down a little bit and better understand is this, is this the whole picture? So that was sort of the first reason. The second is, like you said, yes, the conversations are typically very adversarial, isolating urban and rural areas from each other. And not only that, but what we haven't gotten to, although we've gotten a lot of sort of explanation about what people think urban versus rural means, we haven't gotten to solutions. And again, when we're working with local governments and cities in particular and towns across the country, they're they're doers.\n\nThey want to know how to how to fix the problem. And if there are challenges, what does it actually mean to to move forward? So that was sort of the other area. When we put the economic lens specifically on the urban rural divide from, from the National League of Cities perspective, that really helped illuminate a path forward for us when we're talking about solutions. So, what are some of the key elements of the economic urban rural divide?\n\nAnd then also what are some of the opportunities that we're finding in some places across the country? And and how can that inform strategies for other parts of the country that are struggling?\n\nSpeaker 0: So yeah. So so what are you seeing in terms of have have there been regional initiatives, like actual urban rural initiatives out there that government has played a role in that you can maybe scale out to, to other areas?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. There's quite a bit that's happening. So primarily what we're seeing that was sort of a surprise finding to us in the report is that many rural parts of states across the country are outpacing their urban counterparts when it comes to things like high value business growth. And what we mean by that is businesses that are in the traded sector, businesses that are exporting outside the community and bringing new new money into the community to really help bolster the economic growth of the place. So that I would say is is a surprising finding and one that can help inform strategies moving forward.\n\nThe other piece is prosperity growth. And when we say prosperity growth, we mean the contribution of a particular area to the state GDP. We found in 25 states across the country that rural areas are are outpacing their urban areas in terms of prosperity growth in particular states. So that means, urban rural areas are driving economic growth very strongly in states across the country, at least 25 of them. So when we ask the question about why is this happening, what we find, in many parts of the country, if you look at North Dakota, for example, obviously, there's, there's fracking that is happening in more rural parts of the state, but we're seeing some high growth happening in urban parts of the state.\n\nSo digging a little bit deeper, what that reveals to us is that the strong growth in urban parts of the state are actually derived from rural economies. So when we think about the legal services that are needed for the fracking industry, and other services related to, to natural resources industries that are happening in more rural parts of the state, those those elements of the industry are happening in urban areas. But it is tied to the rural rural parts of the state. Similarly, when we think about the agricultural industry and what types of jobs that that's developing, obviously, there are production jobs that are happening in the rural parts of the state. We're seeing this in California, in the Sacramento region.\n\nBut when you actually look at the trail of jobs and economic activity, it extends well into the urban parts of the state, particularly urban parts of that region that are, that are benefiting from the growth that's happening in the rural parts of of the region.\n\nSpeaker 0: So, kinda going back into what's led up to the conversation about the the rural urban divide or rural versus urban, I I think about access to resources and, you know, who's got what, who's able to do what, broadband, educational resources. What are some of the contributing factors when it comes to the the perceived gulf between urban and rural areas?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I think you're right. Access and connection really is at the heart of what we're talking about here. When, you know, when we were saying before there's is a lack of nuance around the urban rural divide, I would say one piece of the sort of national conversation that, that is accurate is the the divide around broadband.\n\nSpeaker 0: So if you haven't listened to the previous episode, episode 47, please do. It's all about the potential for high quality broadband access to close the rural urban divide, bring some parity, truly connect everything. And we also talk about how to get there. When I said earlier that this NLC report was done alongside state municipal leagues, this is where the league that I work for really played a part. It quotes us as saying, there is a role for government to play in this policy area, which up until now has been left entirely to the private sector.\n\nSo we and the public are seeing broadband as twenty first century infrastructure. No longer just something nice you can subscribe to, like Dollar Shave Club, not an advertisement. Broadband and especially high quality broadband, like with gigabit speed fiber, is so essential for business growth, healthcare, and so much more that there's an obvious public interest. It can help to equalize a lot of parts of this country if we had the widespread access needed.\n\nSpeaker 1: Broadband is essential to everything that we do, you know, in this country, whether it's economic activity, you know, personal opportunity, opportunities for families to improve their their livelihoods, broadband access is at the center of it all. And certainly what we're seeing in states across the country is that rural areas are at a severe disadvantage, and that urban areas, certainly outpace rural counterparts when it comes to access to broadband. We know in Minnesota, for example, there is a program called border to border, initiative that's happening in the state of Minnesota. And they are they're executing and implementing, a series of recommendations to, to expand broadband access to the entire state. So that's one example of of what's happening.\n\nSpeaker 0: Is that a is that a state driven program or is it intergovernmental or\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm. It's yeah, it's state driven obviously with, with significant, implementation partners at the local level.\n\nSpeaker 0: So here's how that works. According to the report, more than 252,000 households in Minnesota, which is 12% of the state, don't have any access to high speed Internet. Gotta repeat, that means limited or no access to telemedicine, e learning, job connections, and so on, while businesses are cramped to compete because the large transfer of data online is a totally normal thing now in the business world. So the Minnesota legislature declared that their state, border to border, is going to have high speed broadband. So they rolled out what's called the Border to Border Broadband Development Grant Program.\n\nAnd it's going for unserved or underserved areas where it costs more money for a private Internet service provider to roll out service, meaning there's not much interest in the eyes of a private provider to roll it out there, at least not without resources to help out. So this state program in Minnesota helps to mitigate those costs and risks. So it provides matching funds to ISPs that agree to extend service to these otherwise hard to serve areas. This past November, the state announced more than $26,000,000 for 39 projects across the state to connect nearly 10,000 households, 2,200 businesses, and 60 community institutions, all of which were either underserved or unserved. In North Carolina, we're encouraging public private partnerships where public entities such as local governments are able to do what they do best and provide the infrastructure needed for a private ISP to operate or boost service where they otherwise wouldn't.\n\nSpeaker 1: I think the key with broadband access is that, leaving it to the market generally is not a solution that works, that government needs to be involved because there are certainly there's a challenge there for the market to provide the access that's necessary for, for all areas of of states, in particular, rural rural areas that that may not have the density that's needed, by, by by private companies in order to bring to bring access to to certain parts of the state. So, certainly, government intervention seems to be, a necessary component of expanding access.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thinking about other resources that seem to differ between urban and rural, and not necessarily, but I I think about education. Broadband, of course, can can factor into that as well. But even before that, when it comes to, you know, connectivity and all that, what's what are the dynamics there between educational resources in urban versus rural areas? And I know in rural, I mean, that's gotta figure into, you know, the workforce development, I guess, too.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. There are significant divides when it comes to education. And like you said, having access to broadband or not having access to broadband is another key driver when it comes to education as well. Mhmm. We're seeing obviously higher educational attainment in urban areas across the country.\n\nWe the map is spotted with, with places like Vermont, for example, that have, that have higher attainment in rural parts, and that's due in large part to a high concentration of rural based universities. Mhmm. So, so, yeah, we're seeing that there certainly continues to be a divide when it comes to education. And being able to ameliorate that certainly will depend in, at least in some part, on broadband access as well.\n\nSpeaker 0: So, I mean so the the broadband piece, I mean, that kinda permeates everything. Is there is there any findings in the report that are kind of independent of broadband access? Just any even more legacy or traditional links between urban and rural or or or breaks between urban and rural that, that figure into, you know, recommendations or policies in this report?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. When we think about population, of course, the population centers are in urban areas. I think, there is a lot of dynamics, particularly with, with new generations of workers wanting to have a stronger work life balance and wanting to be able to both have urban amenities, but as as well as access to some rural lifestyle elements like outdoors, for example. And so there's a lot of opportunity there. But again, it comes back to what is the, what is the availability both for jobs in particular places or at least access to jobs.\n\nAnd again, that gets back to the broadband issue.\n\nSpeaker 0: Could you talk a little bit more about the symbiosis between rural and urban areas when it comes to one serving the other or or the the, prosperity to some degree of of one kinda depending on the other and and how it's, you know, getting away from the the urban versus rural mindset can be beneficial when we just look at the region or the hub and spoke kind of mentality or where does that symbiosis work?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. There's a there's a lot of interconnection between urban and rural communities in some places across the country. And what we're finding is that when that happens, that's when we're starting to see prosperity not only in more rural parts of states or in regions as a whole, but it is also lifting up, the prosperity and the growth for the entire state. So for example, we found that, there are three key ways that urban and rural areas can be economically interdependent with each other. And again, these would then drive, drive economic growth.\n\nThe first is rural linkages to urban sort of clusters of economic activity. So, for example, if if there are if there's a key industry in an urban area and the rural community has, has sort of a a budding workforce or workforce on the cusp that is able to sort of tap into that, being able to make those strong economic connections, or even thinking about supply chain companies that can help service some of the urban, the urban focused economic activity. The other is urban linkages to rural clusters. And this this comes back around when we're talking about, in particular with agriculture. We're seeing sort of the heart of the economic activity happening in more rural parts of the state, but urban areas are benefiting.\n\nAnd when we say benefiting, it means that they're part of the value chain that is making, that's making that industry successful, in the state. So for example, when we're talking about Sacramento and specialty crops, right, this stuff gets a little in the weeds. But when you think about where, where sort of the actual production of of some of these crops is happening, obviously, that's more rural. But then when you think about what's the end product of some of those goods, it's it needs to have more processing to it. There needs to be transportation and distribution.\n\nAnd a lot of this is happening in the urban parts of the state and urban parts of the region. So we're seeing that connection to where the the core and the bulk of the economic activities actually starting in the rural parts of the state. Then when we're thinking specifically about rural areas that that seemingly don't have a connection to more urban parts of the state, that seem a little bit more disconnected, they really need to dig deep and think about their economic assets. And, what we found in a lot of places is that rural entrepreneurship is sprouting up across the country. And this is because, in in large part due to lack of opportunity for for people who are living there, the places that have been successful, we've seen examples, you know, across the country, specifically in Oregon, thinking about, how the urban urban area can serve not only as sort of an end market for for rural entrepreneurship.\n\nSo if there are goods that are being produced in rural areas, and then, the market for those goods is the urban area. But a lot of rural entrepreneurs are thinking even beyond that. They're thinking globally. And how can they use the urban area to test or refine their product and continue to work on their products so that it can be brought to a global scale. And, again, we're seeing that in the the Portland area, particularly with with rural hops growers in Oregon relying on sort of the sophisticated taste of, of the urban consumers there to help them innovate and stay ahead of what, you know, stay stay ahead of the curve when it comes to sort of refined tastes in terms of, craft beer and so forth.\n\nAnd then that helps them obviously to sort of export more globally and to be more successful in that in that realm as well. I think the strategies that we're proposing in the report that are focused really on identifying what the interconnections are between urban and rural communities, rely on a broader understanding of how and where economic activity does take place and can take place. I think we traditionally have, notions particularly in economic development policy and program development around sort of industry clusters. This concept that, that there has to be a very tight density of economic activity in order for it to be successful. Now certainly some of that is very true and depending on the industries that's going to be true.\n\nBut there are elements of it where if we think more more regionally, there can also be opportunities and opportunities that extend to more rural parts of the region that have yet to be tapped, and can be explored for future economic growth. Yeah. My sense is that what we were able to uncover in the report, is not just sort of more context around the urban rural divide, but it really is hope for more rural communities and Mhmm. Hope in terms of their opportunities that they have to to both think about their assets in different ways, and then also to partner and connect and think about how, the activity that's happening in urban parts of the state can, can relate back to what their, what their assets are. So from our perspective, it really, helps to lay the groundwork for economic development policy, economic development programs that are strongly focused on, on a regional context.\n\nSpeaker 0: The report is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide. You can find it at nlc.0rg. That was Christiana McFarland, the report's author. Also have it in the show notes at municipalequation.libsyn.com. Libsyn is spelled l I b s y n.\n\nThanks for listening, but this is definitely one for feedback. So that's not the end of the conversation. Please tell me your thoughts. My email is bbrown@nclm.org, or you can connect with me on Twitter. The handle is at muniequation,@muniequation.\n\nIf you'd like me to read your feedback on the show, please let me know. I'd love to. You can also speak your comment into a voice memo on your smartphone and send me the file so I can play your voice on the episode. We're headed toward our fiftieth episode. Again, this podcast comes out every other week at nclm.org/municipalequation.\n\nOf course, you can make it easy by simply subscribing on iTunes or on your favorite podcast app. And while you're at it, please consider leaving a five star review. That's good fuel for the podcast, and thank you to everybody who's already done that. Keep sharing your ideas for the show. We'll talk to you next time.\n\nThis is Ben Brown.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "On this episode of Municipal Equation.", "start": 4.3199997, "end": 6.3999996 } ], "start": 4.3199997, "end": 6.3999996, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The urban rural divide has a lot of meaning to a lot of different people.", "start": 6.3999996, "end": 9.679999 }, { "text": "There is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse.", "start": 9.679999, "end": 14.715 }, { "text": "It's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural.", "start": 14.715, "end": 17.675 }, { "text": "We found that, there are three key ways that urban and rural areas can be economically interdependent with each other.", "start": 17.675, "end": 24.89 }, { "text": "These would then drive economic growth.", "start": 24.89, "end": 26.97 } ], "start": 6.3999996, "end": 26.97, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bridging the urban rural divide.", "start": 26.97, "end": 28.99 }, { "text": "One of the most standout political, economic, and cultural topics out there today.", "start": 29.05, "end": 33.15 }, { "text": "My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change.", "start": 33.21, "end": 38.805 }, { "text": "From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, episode 48.", "start": 39.045002, "end": 44.265 }, { "text": "So this isn't the first time we've done an episode on this whole urban versus rural thing.", "start": 69.385, "end": 73.965004 } ], "start": 26.97, "end": 73.965004, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Within the state, there's there tends to be, just tension.", "start": 74.025, "end": 78.125 } ], "start": 74.025, "end": 78.125, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That was Ada Smith of the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange from episode 36, which we called Urban Cowboy two.", "start": 78.345, "end": 85.06 }, { "text": "It was about a program that literally brings the urban and rural together.", "start": 85.44, "end": 89.12 }, { "text": "It's called RUCs, or the Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange.", "start": 89.12, "end": 92.1 }, { "text": "It's where people from rural areas of Kentucky get together with people from the urban areas and diffuse their misconceptions of one another, and even develop actual partnerships where these two different areas help each other out.", "start": 92.785, "end": 103.445 }, { "text": "That includes governmental partnerships.", "start": 103.505005, "end": 105.205 } ], "start": 78.345, "end": 105.205, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it certainly irons out stereotypes.", "start": 105.79, "end": 107.729996 } ], "start": 105.79, "end": 107.729996, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I feel like, at least for me, a lot of the, rural or urban conversations that have been happening on the national level, you know, obviously reinforce a lot of stereotypes specifically about political leaning.", "start": 108.27, "end": 122.125 }, { "text": "And I think that what I have felt like has been true with Rex is that just none of that holds up at all.", "start": 122.345, "end": 130.825 }, { "text": "And I think that what we know we have to do even across, you know, within a political spectrum is that people just don't know each other over these huge states.", "start": 130.825, "end": 143.29999 }, { "text": "They, like, literally don't have a sense of each other.", "start": 143.43999, "end": 146.0 }, { "text": "And so I think that, you know, regardless of the, like, getting people to talk across the aisle, I think there's also a real need for folks to just spend some time with each other, to have experience with each other, to eat food together, to go hear a band together.", "start": 146.0, "end": 165.31 } ], "start": 108.27, "end": 165.31, "num_words": 151.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 166.25, "end": 166.57 }, { "text": "And I and I think what's hard about that is that it takes time.", "start": 166.57, "end": 170.11 }, { "text": "And I think, obviously, we're in a moment where people want very quick, change to happen.", "start": 170.73, "end": 177.815 }, { "text": "And I think we know that change takes time, and it takes relationships.", "start": 177.815, "end": 184.955 }, { "text": "And as Savannah said, it takes trust.", "start": 185.25499, "end": 187.97499 } ], "start": 166.25, "end": 187.97499, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and I think we have to, to to really shift, infra like, structural barriers that are in place.", "start": 187.97499, "end": 199.04999 }, { "text": "We have to be able to wrestle with each other, and we can't do that if we don't even have a sense of where someone's from.", "start": 199.59, "end": 207.04501 }, { "text": "You're getting those connections, that network, those relationships, and you're really seeing parts of the state in a very nuanced way.", "start": 207.74501, "end": 217.845 } ], "start": 187.97499, "end": 217.845, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bookmark that word nuanced because it's pretty operative in this episode.", "start": 219.36, "end": 222.9 }, { "text": "Ada Smith's words just then were hopeful but realistic.", "start": 223.68, "end": 226.73999 }, { "text": "The opportunities are there to relieve tension in the urban rural divide, but it's not gonna lift overnight, takes a lot of work, and really it's still hardening this narrative.", "start": 227.36, "end": 236.60501 }, { "text": "More and more people are talking about the urban rural divide.", "start": 236.985, "end": 239.80501 }, { "text": "And I haven't seen it encapsulated quite as deftly as this, this introduction to a report by Christiana McFarland at the National League of Cities.", "start": 240.265, "end": 248.42 } ], "start": 219.36, "end": 248.42, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The facts are stark.", "start": 249.2, "end": 250.5 }, { "text": "Economic change and recovery in our nation have resulted in vastly different opportunities and outcomes for individuals and families based on where they live.", "start": 250.8, "end": 259.7 }, { "text": "An urban rural divide narrative is solidifying around these trends.", "start": 260.035, "end": 263.895 }, { "text": "It's one that touts or bemoans the all consuming growth of our nation's largest cities, and laments rural communities as devoid of economic potential.", "start": 264.435, "end": 273.335 }, { "text": "It juxtaposes urban and rural areas, pitting them against each other and ultimately, isolating them from each other.", "start": 274.5, "end": 282.2 } ], "start": 249.2, "end": 282.2, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then she says this, the narrative, whether political, economic, or cultural, ignores nuance within broader urban rural trends.", "start": 282.82, "end": 290.615 }, { "text": "All while largely avoiding solutions for more sustainable growth.", "start": 291.235, "end": 294.695 }, { "text": "The report that comes from is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide, and it's an outcome of a research collaborative between the National League of Cities and State Municipal Leagues, including the North Carolina League that brings you this podcast.", "start": 300.71, "end": 314.185 }, { "text": "So we're gonna talk with the primary author right now.", "start": 314.245, "end": 316.905 } ], "start": 282.82, "end": 316.905, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is Christiana McFarland.", "start": 317.04498, "end": 318.425 }, { "text": "I'm the research director with the National League of Cities here in DC.", "start": 318.485, "end": 321.38498 } ], "start": 317.04498, "end": 321.38498, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, let's just set out some context.", "start": 321.925, "end": 323.78497 }, { "text": "When we're talking about the rural urban divide, what do we mean generally?", "start": 324.00497, "end": 328.52002 } ], "start": 321.925, "end": 328.52002, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The urban rural divide has a lot of, has a lot of meaning to a lot of different people.", "start": 329.38, "end": 334.58002 }, { "text": "And I think that was one of the reasons why we were really interested in doing this report.", "start": 334.58002, "end": 338.36002 }, { "text": "Generally speaking, when we talk about the urban rural divide, there are parts of the country that are highly rural with, with less access to opportunity.", "start": 339.275, "end": 347.69498 }, { "text": "And then there are highly connected parts of the country, namely in urban areas that have more opportunity.", "start": 348.395, "end": 354.09497 }, { "text": "Once you start to get to the nuances of that, that's where I think the, the general definitions that we hold in our mind start to fall apart a little bit.", "start": 354.99, "end": 362.27 } ], "start": 329.38, "end": 362.27, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 362.27, "end": 362.77 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 363.71, "end": 363.95 }, { "text": "Well, you know, where do we see the divide the most?", "start": 363.95, "end": 367.15 }, { "text": "Is there a breakdown of states or regions of the country where this is most prevalent?", "start": 367.15, "end": 371.30502 } ], "start": 362.27, "end": 371.30502, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We're seeing divides between urban and rural communities across the country.", "start": 372.405, "end": 376.905 }, { "text": "Interestingly, you know, it really depends on what aspects of the urban rural divide that we're talking about.", "start": 378.005, "end": 384.21 }, { "text": "When we talk about broadband access, for example, we're seeing divides across the country.", "start": 384.69, "end": 389.25 } ], "start": 372.405, "end": 389.25, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 389.25, "end": 389.56998 }, { "text": "That that's a really good point.", "start": 389.56998, "end": 390.44998 }, { "text": "You know, when we say either urban or rural, you know, people kinda conceptually know what we're talking about.", "start": 390.44998, "end": 395.16998 }, { "text": "Like, urban is the skyscraper in the downtown and rural is the farm and and the country store.", "start": 395.16998, "end": 399.81 }, { "text": "But are there actual definitions or thresholds for what those words really mean?", "start": 399.81, "end": 404.505 } ], "start": 389.25, "end": 404.505, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, can we measure up to the limit of when rural is no longer rural, for example?", "start": 404.505, "end": 408.525 } ], "start": 404.505, "end": 408.525, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 409.145, "end": 409.625 }, { "text": "Somewhat.", "start": 409.625, "end": 410.125 }, { "text": "So there are a couple of different definitions that people and analysts and others use when they when they talk about urban and rural.", "start": 411.54498, "end": 417.68 }, { "text": "So one is metropolitan versus non metropolitan.", "start": 417.68, "end": 420.82 }, { "text": "That's sort of a, OMB definition of the extent to which areas are within metropolitan areas or they're not within metropolitan areas.", "start": 421.04, "end": 430.935 } ], "start": 409.145, "end": 430.935, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The challenge there is then you also have, the census also has a definition of urban and rural.", "start": 431.575, "end": 437.355 }, { "text": "And when you compare that definition, which accounts primarily for things like density and population, you find that there actually are a number of rural communities according to the census designation that lie within metropolitan areas of the OMB definition.", "start": 437.655, "end": 452.63998 }, { "text": "So this is where it starts to get a little hairy.", "start": 452.86, "end": 454.78 }, { "text": "Yep.", "start": 454.78, "end": 455.28 } ], "start": 431.575, "end": 455.28, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gotcha.", "start": 455.34, "end": 455.81998 }, { "text": "Gotcha.", "start": 455.81998, "end": 456.31998 }, { "text": "You know, we also get into the language of, you know, urban versus rural, like it's an adversarial relationship.", "start": 456.66498, "end": 462.525 }, { "text": "But, you know, looking at the report, there's a suggestion that, you know, individual economic futures are, to some degree, bound together between urban and rural.", "start": 462.66498, "end": 471.53 }, { "text": "Could you talk about the the sort of impetus for this report?", "start": 471.66998, "end": 474.87 } ], "start": 455.34, "end": 474.87, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You you you mentioned earlier that, the sort of lack of clarity between what we actually mean by urban rural divide.", "start": 474.87, "end": 482.15 }, { "text": "But, what does this report get into?", "start": 482.15, "end": 484.25 } ], "start": 474.87, "end": 484.25, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "From my perspective, there is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse.", "start": 485.035, "end": 491.435 }, { "text": "And and like you mentioned, it's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural.", "start": 491.435, "end": 495.835 }, { "text": "And I think, that's primarily because there's a lot of sort of political baggage that's coming with that, and a whole host of reasons that essentially plays rural communities as devoid of economic potential and urban areas as, as sort of the hotspots in the country.", "start": 495.835, "end": 512.985 }, { "text": "Now, to some extent, of course, some of that is true.", "start": 512.985, "end": 515.405 }, { "text": "But we really wanted to dig a little bit deeper because, if we know anything working with and in local governments is that, issues are hardly black and white.", "start": 515.625, "end": 523.885 } ], "start": 485.035, "end": 523.885, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we wanted to really dig down a little bit and better understand is this, is this the whole picture?", "start": 524.185, "end": 529.83997 }, { "text": "So that was sort of the first reason.", "start": 529.83997, "end": 531.94 }, { "text": "The second is, like you said, yes, the conversations are typically very adversarial, isolating urban and rural areas from each other.", "start": 532.32, "end": 540.18 }, { "text": "And not only that, but what we haven't gotten to, although we've gotten a lot of sort of explanation about what people think urban versus rural means, we haven't gotten to solutions.", "start": 540.48, "end": 549.92505 }, { "text": "And again, when we're working with local governments and cities in particular and towns across the country, they're they're doers.", "start": 549.92505, "end": 556.49 } ], "start": 524.185, "end": 556.49, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They want to know how to how to fix the problem.", "start": 556.49, "end": 558.81 }, { "text": "And if there are challenges, what does it actually mean to to move forward?", "start": 558.81, "end": 562.41 }, { "text": "So that was sort of the other area.", "start": 562.41, "end": 564.11 }, { "text": "When we put the economic lens specifically on the urban rural divide from, from the National League of Cities perspective, that really helped illuminate a path forward for us when we're talking about solutions.", "start": 564.57, "end": 574.995 }, { "text": "So, what are some of the key elements of the economic urban rural divide?", "start": 574.995, "end": 580.21497 } ], "start": 556.49, "end": 580.21497, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then also what are some of the opportunities that we're finding in some places across the country?", "start": 580.675, "end": 585.12 }, { "text": "And and how can that inform strategies for other parts of the country that are struggling?", "start": 585.5, "end": 589.43994 } ], "start": 580.675, "end": 589.43994, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So yeah.", "start": 590.69995, "end": 591.42 }, { "text": "So so what are you seeing in terms of have have there been regional initiatives, like actual urban rural initiatives out there that government has played a role in that you can maybe scale out to, to other areas?", "start": 591.42, "end": 602.225 } ], "start": 590.69995, "end": 602.225, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 602.925, "end": 603.08496 }, { "text": "There's quite a bit that's happening.", "start": 603.08496, "end": 604.605 }, { "text": "So primarily what we're seeing that was sort of a surprise finding to us in the report is that many rural parts of states across the country are outpacing their urban counterparts when it comes to things like high value business growth.", "start": 604.605, "end": 619.26 }, { "text": "And what we mean by that is businesses that are in the traded sector, businesses that are exporting outside the community and bringing new new money into the community to really help bolster the economic growth of the place.", "start": 619.56, "end": 630.85504 }, { "text": "So that I would say is is a surprising finding and one that can help inform strategies moving forward.", "start": 630.85504, "end": 636.955 } ], "start": 602.925, "end": 636.955, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The other piece is prosperity growth.", "start": 637.67, "end": 639.67 }, { "text": "And when we say prosperity growth, we mean the contribution of a particular area to the state GDP.", "start": 640.47, "end": 644.97 }, { "text": "We found in 25 states across the country that rural areas are are outpacing their urban areas in terms of prosperity growth in particular states.", "start": 645.51, "end": 653.84503 }, { "text": "So that means, urban rural areas are driving economic growth very strongly in states across the country, at least 25 of them.", "start": 654.785, "end": 661.425 }, { "text": "So when we ask the question about why is this happening, what we find, in many parts of the country, if you look at North Dakota, for example, obviously, there's, there's fracking that is happening in more rural parts of the state, but we're seeing some high growth happening in urban parts of the state.", "start": 661.425, "end": 678.745 } ], "start": 637.67, "end": 678.745, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So digging a little bit deeper, what that reveals to us is that the strong growth in urban parts of the state are actually derived from rural economies.", "start": 679.60504, "end": 688.66504 }, { "text": "So when we think about the legal services that are needed for the fracking industry, and other services related to, to natural resources industries that are happening in more rural parts of the state, those those elements of the industry are happening in urban areas.", "start": 689.3, "end": 705.0 }, { "text": "But it is tied to the rural rural parts of the state.", "start": 705.435, "end": 708.735 }, { "text": "Similarly, when we think about the agricultural industry and what types of jobs that that's developing, obviously, there are production jobs that are happening in the rural parts of the state.", "start": 709.435, "end": 721.33997 }, { "text": "We're seeing this in California, in the Sacramento region.", "start": 721.88, "end": 724.77997 } ], "start": 679.60504, "end": 724.77997, "num_words": 125.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But when you actually look at the trail of jobs and economic activity, it extends well into the urban parts of the state, particularly urban parts of that region that are, that are benefiting from the growth that's happening in the rural parts of of the region.", "start": 724.92, "end": 739.30505 } ], "start": 724.92, "end": 739.30505, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, kinda going back into what's led up to the conversation about the the rural urban divide or rural versus urban, I I think about access to resources and, you know, who's got what, who's able to do what, broadband, educational resources.", "start": 740.405, "end": 755.27 }, { "text": "What are some of the contributing factors when it comes to the the perceived gulf between urban and rural areas?", "start": 755.995, "end": 762.25494 } ], "start": 740.405, "end": 762.25494, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 763.19495, "end": 763.435 }, { "text": "I think you're right.", "start": 763.435, "end": 764.235 }, { "text": "Access and connection really is at the heart of what we're talking about here.", "start": 764.235, "end": 768.06 }, { "text": "When, you know, when we were saying before there's is a lack of nuance around the urban rural divide, I would say one piece of the sort of national conversation that, that is accurate is the the divide around broadband.", "start": 768.7, "end": 779.36 } ], "start": 763.19495, "end": 779.36, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So if you haven't listened to the previous episode, episode 47, please do.", "start": 783.165, "end": 787.665 }, { "text": "It's all about the potential for high quality broadband access to close the rural urban divide, bring some parity, truly connect everything.", "start": 787.885, "end": 795.91 }, { "text": "And we also talk about how to get there.", "start": 796.37, "end": 798.38995 }, { "text": "When I said earlier that this NLC report was done alongside state municipal leagues, this is where the league that I work for really played a part.", "start": 798.93, "end": 806.79 }, { "text": "It quotes us as saying, there is a role for government to play in this policy area, which up until now has been left entirely to the private sector.", "start": 806.85, "end": 815.045 } ], "start": 783.165, "end": 815.045, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we and the public are seeing broadband as twenty first century infrastructure.", "start": 816.46497, "end": 820.805 }, { "text": "No longer just something nice you can subscribe to, like Dollar Shave Club, not an advertisement.", "start": 821.36005, "end": 826.02 }, { "text": "Broadband and especially high quality broadband, like with gigabit speed fiber, is so essential for business growth, healthcare, and so much more that there's an obvious public interest.", "start": 826.56006, "end": 836.525 }, { "text": "It can help to equalize a lot of parts of this country if we had the widespread access needed.", "start": 836.745, "end": 841.965 } ], "start": 816.46497, "end": 841.965, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Broadband is essential to everything that we do, you know, in this country, whether it's economic activity, you know, personal opportunity, opportunities for families to improve their their livelihoods, broadband access is at the center of it all.", "start": 843.22504, "end": 856.66 }, { "text": "And certainly what we're seeing in states across the country is that rural areas are at a severe disadvantage, and that urban areas, certainly outpace rural counterparts when it comes to access to broadband.", "start": 857.27997, "end": 869.185 }, { "text": "We know in Minnesota, for example, there is a program called border to border, initiative that's happening in the state of Minnesota.", "start": 869.565, "end": 876.945 }, { "text": "And they are they're executing and implementing, a series of recommendations to, to expand broadband access to the entire state.", "start": 877.68, "end": 885.76 }, { "text": "So that's one example of of what's happening.", "start": 885.76, "end": 887.86 } ], "start": 843.22504, "end": 887.86, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Is that a is that a state driven program or is it intergovernmental or", "start": 888.48004, "end": 891.92 } ], "start": 888.48004, "end": 891.92, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 892.16003, "end": 892.48004 }, { "text": "It's yeah, it's state driven obviously with, with significant, implementation partners at the local level.", "start": 892.48004, "end": 898.515 } ], "start": 892.16003, "end": 898.515, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So here's how that works.", "start": 899.375, "end": 900.755 }, { "text": "According to the report, more than 252,000 households in Minnesota, which is 12% of the state, don't have any access to high speed Internet.", "start": 900.975, "end": 910.05 }, { "text": "Gotta repeat, that means limited or no access to telemedicine, e learning, job connections, and so on, while businesses are cramped to compete because the large transfer of data online is a totally normal thing now in the business world.", "start": 910.43, "end": 923.595 }, { "text": "So the Minnesota legislature declared that their state, border to border, is going to have high speed broadband.", "start": 923.595, "end": 929.77496 }, { "text": "So they rolled out what's called the Border to Border Broadband Development Grant Program.", "start": 930.075, "end": 934.175 } ], "start": 899.375, "end": 934.175, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it's going for unserved or underserved areas where it costs more money for a private Internet service provider to roll out service, meaning there's not much interest in the eyes of a private provider to roll it out there, at least not without resources to help out.", "start": 934.61005, "end": 947.745 }, { "text": "So this state program in Minnesota helps to mitigate those costs and risks.", "start": 948.225, "end": 952.565 }, { "text": "So it provides matching funds to ISPs that agree to extend service to these otherwise hard to serve areas.", "start": 953.345, "end": 959.045 }, { "text": "This past November, the state announced more than $26,000,000 for 39 projects across the state to connect nearly 10,000 households, 2,200 businesses, and 60 community institutions, all of which were either underserved or unserved.", "start": 961.79004, "end": 976.625 }, { "text": "In North Carolina, we're encouraging public private partnerships where public entities such as local governments are able to do what they do best and provide the infrastructure needed for a private ISP to operate or boost service where they otherwise wouldn't.", "start": 978.44495, "end": 991.85004 } ], "start": 934.61005, "end": 991.85004, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think the key with broadband access is that, leaving it to the market generally is not a solution that works, that government needs to be involved because there are certainly there's a challenge there for the market to provide the access that's necessary for, for all areas of of states, in particular, rural rural areas that that may not have the density that's needed, by, by by private companies in order to bring to bring access to to certain parts of the state.", "start": 993.35004, "end": 1022.14 }, { "text": "So, certainly, government intervention seems to be, a necessary component of expanding access.", "start": 1022.44, "end": 1028.46 } ], "start": 993.35004, "end": 1028.46, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thinking about other resources that seem to differ between urban and rural, and not necessarily, but I I think about education.", "start": 1029.3201, "end": 1036.155 }, { "text": "Broadband, of course, can can factor into that as well.", "start": 1036.4551, "end": 1039.3551 }, { "text": "But even before that, when it comes to, you know, connectivity and all that, what's what are the dynamics there between educational resources in urban versus rural areas?", "start": 1039.9751, "end": 1050.35 }, { "text": "And I know in rural, I mean, that's gotta figure into, you know, the workforce development, I guess, too.", "start": 1050.35, "end": 1055.17 } ], "start": 1029.3201, "end": 1055.17, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1056.11, "end": 1056.43 }, { "text": "There are significant divides when it comes to education.", "start": 1056.43, "end": 1058.61 }, { "text": "And like you said, having access to broadband or not having access to broadband is another key driver when it comes to education as well.", "start": 1058.67, "end": 1066.855 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1066.995, "end": 1067.395 }, { "text": "We're seeing obviously higher educational attainment in urban areas across the country.", "start": 1067.555, "end": 1072.535 } ], "start": 1056.11, "end": 1072.535, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We the map is spotted with, with places like Vermont, for example, that have, that have higher attainment in rural parts, and that's due in large part to a high concentration of rural based universities.", "start": 1072.8351, "end": 1084.5701 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1085.27, "end": 1085.77 }, { "text": "So, so, yeah, we're seeing that there certainly continues to be a divide when it comes to education.", "start": 1086.105, "end": 1091.645 }, { "text": "And being able to ameliorate that certainly will depend in, at least in some part, on broadband access as well.", "start": 1092.425, "end": 1098.285 } ], "start": 1072.8351, "end": 1098.285, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, I mean so the the broadband piece, I mean, that kinda permeates everything.", "start": 1098.5599, "end": 1101.84 }, { "text": "Is there is there any findings in the report that are kind of independent of broadband access?", "start": 1102.48, "end": 1107.7 }, { "text": "Just any even more legacy or traditional links between urban and rural or or or breaks between urban and rural that, that figure into, you know, recommendations or policies in this report?", "start": 1107.84, "end": 1118.415 } ], "start": 1098.5599, "end": 1118.415, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1118.555, "end": 1118.795 }, { "text": "When we think about population, of course, the population centers are in urban areas.", "start": 1118.795, "end": 1123.135 }, { "text": "I think, there is a lot of dynamics, particularly with, with new generations of workers wanting to have a stronger work life balance and wanting to be able to both have urban amenities, but as as well as access to some rural lifestyle elements like outdoors, for example.", "start": 1123.275, "end": 1143.2101 }, { "text": "And so there's a lot of opportunity there.", "start": 1143.27, "end": 1144.975 }, { "text": "But again, it comes back to what is the, what is the availability both for jobs in particular places or at least access to jobs.", "start": 1144.975, "end": 1152.355 } ], "start": 1118.555, "end": 1152.355, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And again, that gets back to the broadband issue.", "start": 1152.975, "end": 1155.315 } ], "start": 1152.975, "end": 1155.315, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Could you talk a little bit more about the symbiosis between rural and urban areas when it comes to one serving the other or or the the, prosperity to some degree of of one kinda depending on the other and and how it's, you know, getting away from the the urban versus rural mindset can be beneficial when we just look at the region or the hub and spoke kind of mentality or where does that symbiosis work?", "start": 1156.81, "end": 1181.385 } ], "start": 1156.81, "end": 1181.385, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1182.005, "end": 1182.245 }, { "text": "There's a there's a lot of interconnection between urban and rural communities in some places across the country.", "start": 1182.245, "end": 1188.79 }, { "text": "And what we're finding is that when that happens, that's when we're starting to see prosperity not only in more rural parts of states or in regions as a whole, but it is also lifting up, the prosperity and the growth for the entire state.", "start": 1188.79, "end": 1202.545 }, { "text": "So for example, we found that, there are three key ways that urban and rural areas can be economically interdependent with each other.", "start": 1202.925, "end": 1211.405 }, { "text": "And again, these would then drive, drive economic growth.", "start": 1211.645, "end": 1215.57 } ], "start": 1182.005, "end": 1215.57, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The first is rural linkages to urban sort of clusters of economic activity.", "start": 1216.13, "end": 1220.07 }, { "text": "So, for example, if if there are if there's a key industry in an urban area and the rural community has, has sort of a a budding workforce or workforce on the cusp that is able to sort of tap into that, being able to make those strong economic connections, or even thinking about supply chain companies that can help service some of the urban, the urban focused economic activity.", "start": 1220.9299, "end": 1245.34 }, { "text": "The other is urban linkages to rural clusters.", "start": 1245.88, "end": 1248.0399 }, { "text": "And this this comes back around when we're talking about, in particular with agriculture.", "start": 1248.0399, "end": 1253.02 }, { "text": "We're seeing sort of the heart of the economic activity happening in more rural parts of the state, but urban areas are benefiting.", "start": 1253.08, "end": 1260.095 } ], "start": 1216.13, "end": 1260.095, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And when we say benefiting, it means that they're part of the value chain that is making, that's making that industry successful, in the state.", "start": 1260.095, "end": 1268.0349 }, { "text": "So for example, when we're talking about Sacramento and specialty crops, right, this stuff gets a little in the weeds.", "start": 1268.1749, "end": 1273.715 }, { "text": "But when you think about where, where sort of the actual production of of some of these crops is happening, obviously, that's more rural.", "start": 1274.1, "end": 1281.4 }, { "text": "But then when you think about what's the end product of some of those goods, it's it needs to have more processing to it.", "start": 1281.62, "end": 1287.795 }, { "text": "There needs to be transportation and distribution.", "start": 1288.035, "end": 1290.375 } ], "start": 1260.095, "end": 1290.375, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And a lot of this is happening in the urban parts of the state and urban parts of the region.", "start": 1290.675, "end": 1294.755 }, { "text": "So we're seeing that connection to where the the core and the bulk of the economic activities actually starting in the rural parts of the state.", "start": 1294.755, "end": 1301.015 }, { "text": "Then when we're thinking specifically about rural areas that that seemingly don't have a connection to more urban parts of the state, that seem a little bit more disconnected, they really need to dig deep and think about their economic assets.", "start": 1301.9901, "end": 1315.2101 }, { "text": "And, what we found in a lot of places is that rural entrepreneurship is sprouting up across the country.", "start": 1315.515, "end": 1321.755 }, { "text": "And this is because, in in large part due to lack of opportunity for for people who are living there, the places that have been successful, we've seen examples, you know, across the country, specifically in Oregon, thinking about, how the urban urban area can serve not only as sort of an end market for for rural entrepreneurship.", "start": 1321.755, "end": 1341.86 } ], "start": 1290.675, "end": 1341.86, "num_words": 164.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So if there are goods that are being produced in rural areas, and then, the market for those goods is the urban area.", "start": 1342.0801, "end": 1348.135 }, { "text": "But a lot of rural entrepreneurs are thinking even beyond that.", "start": 1348.595, "end": 1351.5549 }, { "text": "They're thinking globally.", "start": 1351.5549, "end": 1352.4349 }, { "text": "And how can they use the urban area to test or refine their product and continue to work on their products so that it can be brought to a global scale.", "start": 1352.4349, "end": 1360.9199 }, { "text": "And, again, we're seeing that in the the Portland area, particularly with with rural hops growers in Oregon relying on sort of the sophisticated taste of, of the urban consumers there to help them innovate and stay ahead of what, you know, stay stay ahead of the curve when it comes to sort of refined tastes in terms of, craft beer and so forth.", "start": 1360.9199, "end": 1379.495 } ], "start": 1342.0801, "end": 1379.495, "num_words": 132.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then that helps them obviously to sort of export more globally and to be more successful in that in that realm as well.", "start": 1379.495, "end": 1384.635 }, { "text": "I think the strategies that we're proposing in the report that are focused really on identifying what the interconnections are between urban and rural communities, rely on a broader understanding of how and where economic activity does take place and can take place.", "start": 1390.3099, "end": 1406.785 }, { "text": "I think we traditionally have, notions particularly in economic development policy and program development around sort of industry clusters.", "start": 1407.645, "end": 1415.62 }, { "text": "This concept that, that there has to be a very tight density of economic activity in order for it to be successful.", "start": 1415.62, "end": 1421.24 }, { "text": "Now certainly some of that is very true and depending on the industries that's going to be true.", "start": 1421.7001, "end": 1426.28 } ], "start": 1379.495, "end": 1426.28, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But there are elements of it where if we think more more regionally, there can also be opportunities and opportunities that extend to more rural parts of the region that have yet to be tapped, and can be explored for future economic growth.", "start": 1426.3401, "end": 1439.195 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1443.335, "end": 1443.655 }, { "text": "My sense is that what we were able to uncover in the report, is not just sort of more context around the urban rural divide, but it really is hope for more rural communities and Mhmm.", "start": 1443.655, "end": 1454.81 }, { "text": "Hope in terms of their opportunities that they have to to both think about their assets in different ways, and then also to partner and connect and think about how, the activity that's happening in urban parts of the state can, can relate back to what their, what their assets are.", "start": 1454.93, "end": 1470.205 }, { "text": "So from our perspective, it really, helps to lay the groundwork for economic development policy, economic development programs that are strongly focused on, on a regional context.", "start": 1470.505, "end": 1481.88 } ], "start": 1426.3401, "end": 1481.88, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The report is called Bridging the Urban Rural Economic Divide.", "start": 1488.585, "end": 1491.625 }, { "text": "You can find it at nlc.0rg.", "start": 1491.625, "end": 1494.445 }, { "text": "That was Christiana McFarland, the report's author.", "start": 1494.985, "end": 1497.385 }, { "text": "Also have it in the show notes at municipalequation.libsyn.com.", "start": 1497.385, "end": 1501.56 }, { "text": "Libsyn is spelled l I b s y n.", "start": 1501.56, "end": 1504.06 } ], "start": 1488.585, "end": 1504.06, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks for listening, but this is definitely one for feedback.", "start": 1505.64, "end": 1508.76 }, { "text": "So that's not the end of the conversation.", "start": 1508.76, "end": 1510.38 }, { "text": "Please tell me your thoughts.", "start": 1510.6001, "end": 1511.685 }, { "text": "My email is bbrown@nclm.org, or you can connect with me on Twitter.", "start": 1511.925, "end": 1517.125 }, { "text": "The handle is at muniequation,@muniequation.", "start": 1517.125, "end": 1521.305 } ], "start": 1505.64, "end": 1521.305, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If you'd like me to read your feedback on the show, please let me know.", "start": 1522.9651, "end": 1525.525 }, { "text": "I'd love to.", "start": 1525.525, "end": 1526.165 }, { "text": "You can also speak your comment into a voice memo on your smartphone and send me the file so I can play your voice on the episode.", "start": 1526.165, "end": 1532.4601 }, { "text": "We're headed toward our fiftieth episode.", "start": 1536.36, "end": 1538.295 }, { "text": "Again, this podcast comes out every other week at nclm.org/municipalequation.", "start": 1538.375, "end": 1543.515 } ], "start": 1522.9651, "end": 1543.515, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Of course, you can make it easy by simply subscribing on iTunes or on your favorite podcast app.", "start": 1543.8151, "end": 1548.2151 }, { "text": "And while you're at it, please consider leaving a five star review.", "start": 1548.2151, "end": 1551.1951 }, { "text": "That's good fuel for the podcast, and thank you to everybody who's already done that.", "start": 1551.73, "end": 1555.5099 }, { "text": "Keep sharing your ideas for the show.", "start": 1557.1699, "end": 1558.9299 }, { "text": "We'll talk to you next time.", "start": 1558.9299, "end": 1560.3099 } ], "start": 1543.8151, "end": 1560.3099, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is Ben Brown.", "start": 1560.45, "end": 1561.59 } ], "start": 1560.45, "end": 1561.59, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 4.3199997, "end": 23.855, "confidence": 0.9764257, "channel": 0, "transcript": "On this episode of Municipal Equation. The urban rural divide has a lot of meaning to a lot of different people. There is a significant lack of nuance when we're talking about urban and rural, particularly in the national discourse. It's typically very adversarial, urban versus rural. 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These would then drive economic growth. Bridging the urban rural divide. One of the most standout political, economic, and cultural topics out there today. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns in the face of change. From the North Carolina League of Municipalities,", "words": [ { "word": "with", "start": 24.65, "end": 24.73, "confidence": 0.9979361, "punctuated_word": "with", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8153611 }, { "word": "each", "start": 24.73, "end": 24.81, "confidence": 0.99974555, "punctuated_word": "each", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8153611 }, { "word": "other", "start": 24.81, "end": 24.89, "confidence": 0.9436345, "punctuated_word": "other.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8153611 }, { "word": "these", "start": 24.89, "end": 24.97, "confidence": 0.9604409, "punctuated_word": "These", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.51788044 }, { "word": "would", "start": 24.97, "end": 25.130001, "confidence": 0.99838924, "punctuated_word": "would", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.51788044 }, { "word": "then", "start": 25.130001, "end": 25.37, "confidence": 0.9976745, "punctuated_word": "then", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.51788044 }, { "word": "drive", 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