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The first is net neutrality, which is an issue most Internet users thought was finally resolved back in 2015. Alas, that is clearly not the case with the FCC having unveiled its proposal to overturn the existing open Internet protections. We'll talk about what the chairman's proposal means and what the path ahead for supporters of net neutrality looks like. Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons. Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons. Will Congress address section seven zero two before the end of the year? Do you know what I hate talking about? Net neutrality. And why do I hate talking about it? Because I thought this issue had been settled when the FCC put in place strong open Internet protections back in 2015. Well, I was wrong as were many people, and the net neutrality protections are about to be formally eviscerated by the FCC under the leadership of Chairman Pai. Here to give us the latest developments on Chairman Pai's plan to over turn overturn net neutrality is CDT's open Internet policy council, Faraz Vind. Welcome, Faraz. Hi, Brian. Do you love talking about net neutrality as much as I do? You know, I'm as excited as one can be to talk. It's it's not great. Things aren't great is basically Things are not great. That's the good top line here. So Chairman Pai, he released his proposal to overturn the open Internet rules that were enacted under the prior chairman, Tom Wheeler. What exactly does his proposal do? Is it a done deal? So there's a lot here. The repeal itself is over 200 pages of rules and legal justifications. Did you read them all? I got through a good portion of it with some breaks. You you know, I I needed coffee and snacks and a nap or two to get through. It's a lot. It's a lot. Right. But, you know, I I think that, for everyday people, there's probably three main takeaways that we should, you know, keep in mind as we move forward on this. So first of all, his proposal appeals to three bright line protections. That's blocking, throttling, and pay prioritization. So, what this really means for consumers moving forward is that the FCC will net will no longer be able to shield consumers from blocking or throttling by their ISPs, and it will allow, ISPs to charge companies for faster access to users. So blocking and throttling means, just to be clear Right. So blocking means, essentially, the ISP prevents people from viewing, certain websites or certain content. Okay. Right? Thralling just means slowing it down. So I I think the most prominent example that we when we think about throttling, what we're really thinking about is the example of what happened with Netflix a few years back when, basically, ISP slowed down access, to Netflix. And so there there's some consumer outcry about that. You know, Netflix was compelled to make an agreement for, you know, better service. But I think that generally when we're thinking about thralling, that is more or less, the prime example that people think about, when we're talking about that. Perfect sense. Okay. Sorry. So you were on point two. Right. And and so, you know, point two, it prevents states and localities from implementing their very own net neutrality, protections. Right? So it preempts state and local actions. So if you are in an area of the country that, where you have proactive legislators who see what's happening in the FCC and want to protect, their citizens from that sort of action and those sorts of practices from ISPs, this action in theory, prevents states and localities from doing so. I think that it will probably be challenged in in court, obviously, like the rest of this order. But for the time being, that's a part, of the rule making put forward by the FCC. Is this the FCC learning their lessons by a lot of states trying to enact broadband privacy laws after they overturn those? So I think that's a part of that. And in the run up to the final order, we saw a number of ISPs submit ex parte filings with the agency asking for this sort of preemption, asking for the FCC to step in and prevent states and localities from doing this. This was not, I believe, a part of the initial notice of proposed rulemaking. This is a new addition. But, you know, I I think it is a reaction to what a lot of states and and localities have done on broadband privacy. You know, there's, I think, some concern from ISPs that they're going to be forced to respond to a patchwork Mhmm. Of of state and local regulations regarding net neutrality. You know, of course, the easy way out for them is to just not violate principles of net neutrality. Abide by the terms of the open Internet order. But, you know, obviously, I think that if they believe that these rules are restrictive, they want to block it any way, shape, or form and this is a step forward in the way of doing that. Okay. And, you know, finally, this advocates protections of cons of consumers, to the FTC. Mhmm. You know, I think this is the component that doesn't really get quite as much attention, but, you know, we can discuss this in detail a little bit. Yeah. Give it let's go right to it. I mean, a lot folks know, about the FTC. A lot may not know exactly what it does. Right. So what would this rule change? How does the FTC now play in net neutrality? So, you know, on the surface, it would appear there's not necessarily anything wrong with shifting protection of consumers from one agency to another. You know, I really want to stress on the outset that the FTC is an important agency that staff with a lot of hardworking, you know, passionate, dedicated public servants. You know, I I say this in part because I have a friend who works there as a staff attorney. But, you know, this is you know, it is an important agency in the general consumer protection framework. But at the same time, you know, the agency does not have, the same sort of authority to protect consumers compared to the FCC. It does not have, let's say, the same sort of network engineering experience and it does not have the same rule making authority, as the FCC. So, you know, when I talk about rule making, what this really means is that is that the FTC can only pursue violations of consumer rights after the fact. So, you know So we need the big story of something terrible happening, like someone throttling my beloved Buffalo Bills livestream as they beat your Indianapolis Colts next week. I don't really know why you would want to watch the Bills, I think. I don't either. I've been doing it for too long. Fair point. See for you. Any case, so, you know, it it basically, you know, they can only pursue cases on they can only pursue violations on a case by case basis. Right. Right? And the problem with this, particularly in the context of consumer privacy, is that all a lot of these major ISPs have so many subscribers. And this means that millions of people are going to be subject to privacy harms before the FTC takes action. You know, and even then, the agency can only correct the specific practices of the offending ISP. And, you know, given how given the the very nature of privacy harms, right, these harms are specific. They are difficult to correct. You know, because of that, a proactive rule making structure is really, really helpful in this context. But it's not something it is not a power that the FTC currently has. But, you know, more than that, there's another point here that I really want to highlight. You know, right now, it's not even clear that the FTC has a legal authority to regulate many ISPs. You know, the FTC act exempts common carriers, like voice telephone service from its jurisdiction. Right? So the agency cannot regulate common carriers. And right now, there's a case in the Ninth Circuit, which is on the West Coast, regarding the scope of this exemption. And the court in that in the case found that, if a corporation if any component of a corporation has a common carrier component to it, then it is outside Right? So that's AT and T. That's Verizon. Right? So if you are an Internet service provider that also provides voice telephone service or any other sort of common carrier service, you are theoretically outside the jurisdiction of the FTC at this point in time. Right? And now it's, you know, it's worth noting that this case is currently under appeal. It's going to go before the it's gone before the entire ninth circuit. They've already had arguments in the case. Now I I would also mention that FCC knows about this. Right? This is something that we mentioned in our own filings with the agency. This is something that commissioner Brendan Carr said himself, when he was general counsel of the agency, in a filing with the ninth circuit. He current state of the law creates an open gap in the federal regulatory regime. That's a direct quote. Wow. And what this really is is, you know, the f the FCC is essentially blindfolding consumers, blindfolding consumers, pushing them into the middle of a busy highway at night, and trusting that oncoming traffic is going to see them in time to stop. You know, it's reckless. It's a form of administrative malpractice. And I think that, you know, if the FCC moves forward without taking this into account, it's a betrayal of the public trust. You worked really hard on that one. I did. That was good. That was good for us. Yeah. Alright. So, let's now pivot to the ISPs. What do you you know, this is I get a little bit of speculation. Do you think, some of this kind of worst case scenario stuff that people talk about, the blocking, the throttling, do you think they're gonna start doing it? What's going to happen for the kind of Internet users they interact with these ISPs? So after the last election cycle, I'm really hesitant to start making any predictions. You know, anything could happen. Right? But in theory, with the repeal of these rules, these protections, ISPs will be free to block or throttle traffic or implement paid prioritization schemes at at will, in violation of of net neutrality principles. You know, and this might be wishful thinking, on the behalf of consumers, but I don't think they're going to end up going quite that far at least in the short term. Right? I I think that ISPs are going to be constrained by the realities of the electoral process and and by agency rulemaking. Right? So, you know, first, it's worth noting that the FCC chairman is appointed by the president. And without taking a position one way or another on the tenure of the current office holder, I think that given that we may have a a new president in three or so years, there is incentive on behalf of ISBs not to provide a pretext for a shift in rules under new FCC leadership. So that's one component of it. Another part of this is the fact that if the FCCs take any drastic step forward that handicaps innovation from edge providers, you know, Internet based companies, right, there becomes, there it creates, you know, it creates a showing of harm, right, which could then create the kind of grounds necessary to have a stay in court, regarding the net neutrality or appeal. So, you know, with all of this in mind, it's really within the best interests of these ISBs to show that they can be good actors and can and can self regulate. You know, in the short term, I might expect ISPs to allow for some form of pay prioritization on a limited basis. But, you know, again, a lot of this is speculation. A lot of this is contingent on the kind of, you know, political and and legal environment that we're walking into. The hope is that, you know, ISPs defy, some of these expectations moving forward and maintain some form of net neutrality principles. But and, again, I I do think think that there is going to be some form of accountability from from the building public, on some of these issues. Well, sure. And public sentiment with all that pulling seems to very much be on the side of pro net neutrality, so we shall see. So give me a quick, quick play out here. I was also very impressed by how measured you were in talking about this, current administration. Well done. What's next? What you know, if you are someone who cares about net neutrality, what's the path ahead look like if you're you're hoping that these, open Internet rules might be restored or that, you know, strong net neutrality could be back in play? What's what's what's the landscape look like? So there's going to be a vote on this on the net neutrality appeal at the FCC on December 14. You know, there admittedly are limited leverage or pardon me, limited opportunities for us to intervene directly with the agency at this point. It seems like the three votes are there on the Republican side of the commission to get this through. You know, that being said, there's two things I think that people can can do and two things I think, are going to be, you know, active levers for, you know, both folks here at CDT and also, you know, for the general public to get involved in terms of protecting principles of net neutrality. You know, the first thing that I think that the general public can and should do is contact your members of congress. Right? So there's not necessarily up those phones. Exactly. Right? And, you know, I understand there's so much going on. It feels like every day there's another crisis. You know, the obviously, the tax tax bill is getting a lot of attention. Right? We've gone through the health care, the the ACA repeal. But, you know, this is another one I think of those fundamental issues. We're talking about fair, open, free access to the Internet. Right? This is, you know, a fundamental part of, I think, modern American life at this point. And so one of the things that people can do is contact your members of Congress and tell them how much you value, a free and open Internet. You know, ask them to speak out. Ask them to to to work with Chairman Pai and the FCC and to interject with him and tell them, what this actually means to you as a constituent. Right? And even if you aren't able to get through to your member of congress to convince them, what this does is it creates an accountability structure. Right? If your member of congress does not stand up for what you believe in, right, then you have a reason to vote for someone else or to work towards someone else's selection in the next cycle. Right? This is obviously not an endorsement of, you know, voting for anybody else. I do not want to go that far. It's not a lot of declared candidates. You're safe right now. Right. You can say whatever you want. Right? But, you know, to to the extent, hold your members of congress accountable. Right? If you value a free and open Internet, you should work with your members of congress to make sure it's protected. The second component of this is this is going to court. Right? This is almost certainly going to be challenged, in court. I don't necessarily wanna go too deeply into legal arguments, but this is going to be challenged in court. This could be a two to three year process about whether or not the FCC is is acting within its authority as an agency. So, obviously, that's something where I think all of it at CT are going to remain engaged. I think it's a process that people should watch very closely. But, you know, I understand that people are frustrated. I understand that people are upset. I think they should be, but this is by no means over. Right. Well, it's a tough road ahead, but we're very lucky to have you working on it. Thanks so much for joining Tech Talk for us. Of course. Alright. Thanks, Brian. Section seven zero two of the foreign intelligence surveillance act is set to expire in four weeks. And according to our guest, current and former intelligent officials want us to believe that changing a single word in the statute will result in no less than the loss of American lives. CDTs Michelle Richardson thinks this is hyperbole, and it is obscuring the nature of proposed legislative reforms and preventing a fact based debate about how to protect everyday people from this broad surveillance authority. She is here to set some things straight. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you, Brian. I'm happy to be here. So there are a few section seven zero two reform bills out out there. What do most of them do? What are the big ones we should be aware of? Sure. So now there are three major reform bills, and they all reauthorize the program and leave it largely untouched. The government will still be able to get an annual court order to surveil people abroad that then picks its targets, and they say they're about a 100,000 a year to collect phone calls, emails, and other information on as it crosses the Internet. The big debate though is how we should handle Americans' information that ends up in the database. They were not the targets, but they may be speaking to family, friends, and business associates overseas, and so their information is in NSA databases. So the big fight is what should be the procedure for the government to access that information? Should they get a warrant, or should they stay with current rules that allow the government to search through that data looking for an American without any outside process. No court order. Nothing. They can just kinda go in there and look at that data? That is correct. And we don't even have statistics about how the FBI uses it, which is the biggest concern. They operate domestically. They can put people in jail, and so there are higher stakes there than some of the other intelligence agencies that really focus their work abroad. So we've requested that a warrant be put between the FBI and that information so that if they are intentionally looking for Americans, that an outside judge can confirm that the person has has done something wrong or suspected of doing something wrong. Right now, though, the bills for one, out of the house judiciary committee would only require a warrant if there is a criminal investigation. Out of the senate, we see a bill that would subject all access to content on behalf of the FBI to court review, but it would be after the fact and on a really low standard, for consistency with the fourth amendment. And what we saw is a a third proposal emerged just this past Friday, which is the intelligence committee. And they give the FBI the option of either getting a warrant or getting attorney general sign off that it's a national security or other important case. So those are the three structures we're looking at. Best case scenario, a very small percentage of the time the FBI will be getting a warrant in criminal investigations. But for the most part, the process will continue unabated. Oh, wow. And it seems, I mean, this is foreign intelligence surveillance. So why why should the FBI even be able to get in there and look about look about information about Americans and do anything about domestic crimes? That seems not right. Yeah. There are two things here. One, the government claims that once information is collected, they could use it however they see fit. Okay. So it would be wrong for Congress to put any limitation on it. That is quite an overstatement of the rules, though. In The United States, one of the ways we protect privacy is that we limit the use of data the government collects. Right? So there's not one repository where your health and your tax and your communication and all your information is pooled so that any government actor can get to it. We segregate it out, so that we can trust the government to collect this information for the purposes it's used. Second, the FBI says that criminal prosecutions are a part of their foreign intelligence mission. And in part of part of collecting and using all of this foreign intelligence, that means they may prosecute people. It may mean they want to use them as informants. It may mean they wanna take immigration actions and that whatever happens downstream is really in support of the bigger mission. And so they should have no limits on how they use the data. Interesting. So you tend to get let's go a little bit deeper on this a bit. You get cranky when, you hear intelligence agencies and law enforcement. Believe it or not, Michelle can get cranky. It's hard to believe. But when they suggest that any changes to seven zero two will be catastrophic to their investigation. So you talked about it a little bit. But what's what's your challenge? Why are you concerned about this kind of line of argument from them? And I think you also mentioned a court case that they kind of use as their example whenever they trot out that argument. Yeah. So the government is asking for a clean route authorization without any changes to to the law whatsoever, and they usually talk about this program in a way that really obscures the types of changes we're looking for. At this point, no one is proposing that we go back to getting warrants for everybody even if they're overseas. We're just saying after you collect the information and you intentionally go looking for an American in the databases, you get a warrant. The FBI just recently confirmed that they are only 4% of the seven zero two program altogether. And where this is only about the content of program altogether. And where this is only about the content of communications, and this is only about when you know you're looking for a specific American. So this is such a tiny fraction of the seven zero two program to represent these changes as a fundamental shift is really a misstatement. And that also doesn't even mention that there are many ways for the FBI and intelligence agencies to collect the information. If they are picking up this information outside of US boundaries, there's no court review at all. Mhmm. And if they're here, they have incredible criminal authorities too, including emergency powers that allow them to collect content records and all sorts of information. The case that the government usually goes back to is called the Zazi case. This is, a case from 2008, 2009. Zazi was living in Colorado when he was in email communication with a known terrorist overseas. This member of Al Qaeda received an email that said, I am planning the wedding. I just need my final instructions. It's urgent. Get back to me. And he was looking for, some final instructions on how to build a bomb for the New York subway. This is charted out as an example of why we need the two. Yeah. Because, yes, it was collected under 07/2002, but nothing about that would be changed by the type of proposals we're looking at. You are now in an emergency situation when you have someone speaking to a known Al Qaeda operative saying, how do I build this bomb? You now have triggered so many government authorities. A search through the seven zero two database is really such a small small part of what they wanna do. And even if that is something they felt they needed to do for the investigation, every proposal that we are looking at has an emergency exception. Okay. It's a perfect example of what they shouldn't, not be using as as, you know, their their test case on 702 and backdoor searches because it shows you can reform the statute and respond to these ticking time bomb scenarios. Right. So time is ticking away as we stick with the ticking here. Do any of these I mean, say at the December that they have to reauthorize at this point or take some action, do any of the proposals you mentioned earlier have a chance, or are we just going to see section seven zero two either be reauthorized cleanly or expire? Well, all three bills are incredibly moderate. I would say all of them have a fighting chance at this point. Okay. The problem with these always coming down at the end of the year is that they are competing with other issues for time. What the heck else could be going on right now? Right. The house and senate are committing serious amount of time to tax reform. Right? Funding for the government runs out in four days, so they will be working Oh, that's fine. Yeah. A continuing resolution and then reportedly an omnibus. So, this will fall into other battles, and we are expecting that FISA reauthorization be tacked on to what the ultimate omnibus spending bill is, whether it's Oh, okay. Yeah. In the next couple of weeks or maybe there's a short term extension to get it into January where it could be partnered up with those sort of larger proposals. Okay. So what should, our listeners be doing right now if they're concerned about section seven zero two and they want what we want, you know, close that backdoor search? What should they be doing? They should be calling their senator and member of congress and tell them that you want your information protected by a warrant. It's a great talking point. Thank you so much, Michelle. Sorry. You have a busier than, perhaps expected December, but you're doing great things. And thanks for joining Tech Talk. Thanks, Brian. That's it for this episode of Tech Talk. For all the latest developments on net neutrality and government surveillance reform, visit CDT's website, cdt.org. And if you're feeling generous this holiday season and want to support an amazing nonprofit that advocates for your digital rights consider making a donation to CDT there's a bright blue link at the top of our website to make that easy for you I'm Brian Wazilowski happy holidays to all and thanks so much for listening", "confidence": 0.9978916, "words": [ { "word": "welcome", "start": 10.48, "end": 10.98, "confidence": 0.927285, "punctuated_word": "Welcome", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "to", "start": 11.04, "end": 11.28, "confidence": 0.9980883, "punctuated_word": "to", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "tech", "start": 11.28, "end": 11.599999, "confidence": 0.65203136, "punctuated_word": "Tech", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "talk", "start": 11.599999, "end": 12.099999, "confidence": 0.8944336, "punctuated_word": "Talk.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "bye", "start": 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null, "paragraphs": { "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Welcome to Tech Talk. Bye.\n\nSpeaker 1: CT. Tea.\n\nSpeaker 2: Welcome to CDT's tech talk where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives. I'm Brian Wasilowski, and it's time to talk tech. Today, we'll be talking about two issues that are core to CDT's advocacy efforts. In fact, two issues that we seem to keep talking about without resolution. The first is net neutrality, which is an issue most Internet users thought was finally resolved back in 2015.\n\nAlas, that is clearly not the case with the FCC having unveiled its proposal to overturn the existing open Internet protections. We'll talk about what the chairman's proposal means and what the path ahead for supporters of net neutrality looks like. Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons. Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons. Will Congress address section seven zero two before the end of the year?\n\nDo you know what I hate talking about? Net neutrality. And why do I hate talking about it? Because I thought this issue had been settled when the FCC put in place strong open Internet protections back in 2015. Well, I was wrong as were many people, and the net neutrality protections are about to be formally eviscerated by the FCC under the leadership of Chairman Pai.\n\nHere to give us the latest developments on Chairman Pai's plan to over turn overturn net neutrality is CDT's open Internet policy council, Faraz Vind. Welcome, Faraz. Hi, Brian. Do you love talking about net neutrality as much as I do?\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, I'm as excited as one can be to talk. It's it's not great. Things aren't great is\n\nSpeaker 2: basically Things are not great. That's the good top line here. So Chairman Pai, he released his proposal to overturn the open Internet rules that were enacted under the prior chairman, Tom Wheeler. What exactly does his proposal do? Is it a done deal?\n\nSo there's a lot here.\n\nSpeaker 1: The repeal itself is over 200 pages of rules and legal justifications.\n\nSpeaker 2: Did you read them all?\n\nSpeaker 1: I got through a good portion of it with some breaks. You you know, I I needed coffee and snacks and a nap or two to get through. It's a lot. It's a lot. Right.\n\nBut, you know, I I think that, for everyday people, there's probably three main takeaways that we should, you know, keep in mind as we move forward on this. So first of all, his proposal appeals to three bright line protections. That's blocking, throttling, and pay prioritization. So, what this really means for consumers moving forward is that the FCC will net will no longer be able to shield consumers from blocking or throttling by their ISPs, and it will allow, ISPs to charge companies for faster access to users.\n\nSpeaker 2: So blocking and throttling means, just to be clear\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. So blocking means, essentially, the ISP prevents people from viewing, certain websites or certain content.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right? Thralling just means slowing it down. So I I think the most prominent example that we when we think about throttling, what we're really thinking about is the example of what happened with Netflix a few years back when, basically, ISP slowed down access, to Netflix. And so there there's some consumer outcry about that. You know, Netflix was compelled to make an agreement for, you know, better service.\n\nBut I think that generally when we're thinking about thralling, that is more or less, the prime example that people think about, when we're talking about that.\n\nSpeaker 2: Perfect sense. Okay. Sorry. So you were on point two.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: And and so, you know, point two, it prevents states and localities from implementing their very own net neutrality, protections. Right? So it preempts state and local actions. So if you are in an area of the country that, where you have proactive legislators who see what's happening in the FCC and want to protect, their citizens from that sort of action and those sorts of practices from ISPs, this action in theory, prevents states and localities from doing so. I think that it will probably be challenged in in court, obviously, like the rest of this order.\n\nBut for the time being, that's a part, of the rule making put forward by the FCC.\n\nSpeaker 2: Is this the FCC learning their lessons by a lot of states trying to enact broadband privacy laws after they overturn those?\n\nSpeaker 1: So I think that's a part of that. And in the run up to the final order, we saw a number of ISPs submit ex parte filings with the agency asking for this sort of preemption, asking for the FCC to step in and prevent states and localities from doing this. This was not, I believe, a part of the initial notice of proposed rulemaking. This is a new addition. But, you know, I I think it is a reaction to what a lot of states and and localities have done on broadband privacy.\n\nYou know, there's, I think, some concern from ISPs that they're going to be forced to respond to a patchwork Mhmm. Of of state and local regulations regarding net neutrality. You know, of course, the easy way out for them is to just not violate principles of net neutrality. Abide by the terms of the open Internet order. But, you know, obviously, I think that if they believe that these rules are restrictive, they want to block it any way, shape, or form and this is a step forward in the way of doing that.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: And, you know, finally, this advocates protections of cons of consumers, to the FTC.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, I think this is the component that doesn't really get quite as much attention, but, you know, we can discuss this in detail a little bit.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Give it let's go right to it. I mean, a lot folks know, about the FTC. A lot may not know exactly what it does. Right.\n\nSo what would this rule change? How does the FTC now play in net neutrality?\n\nSpeaker 1: So, you know, on the surface, it would appear there's not necessarily anything wrong with shifting protection of consumers from one agency to another. You know, I really want to stress on the outset that the FTC is an important agency that staff with a lot of hardworking, you know, passionate, dedicated public servants. You know, I I say this in part because I have a friend who works there as a staff attorney. But, you know, this is you know, it is an important agency in the general consumer protection framework. But at the same time, you know, the agency does not have, the same sort of authority to protect consumers compared to the FCC.\n\nIt does not have, let's say, the same sort of network engineering experience and it does not have the same rule making authority, as the FCC. So, you know, when I talk about rule making, what this really means is that is that the FTC can only pursue violations of consumer rights after the fact. So, you know\n\nSpeaker 2: So we need the big story of something terrible happening, like someone throttling my beloved Buffalo Bills livestream as they beat your Indianapolis Colts next week.\n\nSpeaker 1: I don't really know why you would want to watch the Bills, I think.\n\nSpeaker 2: I don't either. I've been doing it for\n\nSpeaker 1: too long. Fair point.\n\nSpeaker 0: See for you.\n\nSpeaker 1: Any case, so, you know, it it basically, you know, they can only pursue cases on they can only pursue violations on a case by case basis.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right? And the problem with this, particularly in the context of consumer privacy, is that all a lot of these major ISPs have so many subscribers. And this means that millions of people are going to be subject to privacy harms before the FTC takes action. You know, and even then, the agency can only correct the specific practices of the offending ISP. And, you know, given how given the the very nature of privacy harms, right, these harms are specific.\n\nThey are difficult to correct. You know, because of that, a proactive rule making structure is really, really helpful in this context. But it's not something it is not a power that the FTC currently has. But, you know, more than that, there's another point here that I really want to highlight. You know, right now, it's not even clear that the FTC has a legal authority to regulate many ISPs.\n\nYou know, the FTC act exempts common carriers, like voice telephone service from its jurisdiction. Right? So the agency cannot regulate common carriers. And right now, there's a case in the Ninth Circuit, which is on the West Coast, regarding the scope of this exemption. And the court in that in the case found that, if a corporation if any component of a corporation has a common carrier component to it, then it is outside Right?\n\nSo that's AT and T. That's Verizon. Right? So if you are an Internet service provider that also provides voice telephone service or any other sort of common carrier service, you are theoretically outside the jurisdiction of the FTC\n\nSpeaker 2: at this\n\nSpeaker 1: point in time. Right? And now it's, you know, it's worth noting that this case is currently under appeal. It's going to go before the it's gone before the entire ninth circuit. They've already had arguments in the case.\n\nNow I I would also mention that FCC knows about this. Right? This is something that we mentioned in our own filings with the agency. This is something that commissioner Brendan Carr said himself, when he was general counsel of the agency,\n\nSpeaker 0: in a filing with the\n\nSpeaker 1: ninth circuit. He current state of the law creates an open gap in the federal regulatory regime. That's a direct quote. Wow. And what this really is is, you know, the f the FCC is essentially blindfolding consumers, blindfolding consumers, pushing them into the middle of a busy highway at night, and trusting that oncoming traffic is going to see them in time to stop.\n\nYou know, it's reckless. It's a form of administrative malpractice. And I think that, you know, if the FCC moves forward without taking this into account, it's a betrayal of the public trust.\n\nSpeaker 2: You worked really hard on that one.\n\nSpeaker 0: I did.\n\nSpeaker 2: That was good. That was good for us.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 2: Alright. So, let's now pivot to the ISPs. What do you you know, this is I get a little bit of speculation. Do you think, some of this kind of worst case scenario stuff that people talk about, the blocking, the throttling, do you think they're gonna start doing it? What's going to happen for the kind of Internet users they interact with these ISPs?\n\nSpeaker 1: So after the last election cycle, I'm really hesitant to start making any predictions. You know, anything could happen. Right? But in theory, with the repeal of these rules, these protections, ISPs will be free to block or throttle traffic or implement paid prioritization schemes at at will, in violation of of net neutrality principles. You know, and this might be wishful thinking, on the behalf of consumers, but I don't think they're going to end up going quite that far at least in the short term.\n\nRight? I I think that ISPs are going to be constrained by the realities of the electoral process and and by agency rulemaking. Right? So, you know, first, it's worth noting that the FCC chairman is appointed by the president. And without taking a position one way or another on the tenure of the current office holder, I think that given that we may have a a new president in three or so years, there is incentive on behalf of ISBs not to provide a pretext for a shift in rules under new FCC leadership.\n\nSo that's one component of it. Another part of this is the fact that if the FCCs take any drastic step forward that handicaps innovation from edge providers, you know, Internet based companies, right, there becomes, there it creates, you know, it creates a showing of harm, right, which could then create the kind of grounds necessary to have a stay in court, regarding the net neutrality or appeal. So, you know, with all of this in mind, it's really within the best interests of these ISBs to show that they can be good actors and can and can self regulate. You know, in the short term, I might expect ISPs to allow for some form of pay prioritization on a limited basis. But, you know, again, a lot of this is speculation.\n\nA lot of this is contingent on the kind of, you know, political and and legal environment that we're walking into. The hope is that, you know, ISPs defy, some of these expectations moving forward and maintain some form of net neutrality principles. But and, again, I I do think think that there is going to be some form of accountability from from the building public, on some of these issues.\n\nSpeaker 2: Well, sure. And public sentiment with all that pulling seems to very much be on the side of pro net neutrality, so we shall see. So give me a quick, quick play out here. I was also very impressed by how measured you were in talking about this, current administration. Well done.\n\nWhat's next? What you know, if you are someone who cares about net neutrality, what's the path ahead look like if you're you're hoping that these, open Internet rules might be restored or that, you know, strong net neutrality could be back in play? What's what's what's the landscape look like?\n\nSpeaker 1: So there's going to be a vote on this on the net neutrality appeal at the FCC on December 14. You know, there admittedly are limited leverage or pardon me, limited opportunities for us to intervene directly with the agency at this point. It seems like the three votes are there on the Republican side of the commission to get this through. You know, that being said, there's two things I think that people can can do and two things I think, are going to be, you know, active levers for, you know, both folks here at CDT and also, you know, for the general public to get involved in terms of protecting principles of net neutrality. You know, the first thing that I think that the general public can and should do is contact your members of congress.\n\nRight? So there's not necessarily\n\nSpeaker 2: up those phones.\n\nSpeaker 1: Exactly. Right? And, you know, I understand there's so much going on. It feels like every day there's another crisis. You know, the obviously, the tax tax bill is getting a lot of attention.\n\nRight? We've gone through the health care, the the ACA repeal. But, you know, this is another one I think of those fundamental issues. We're talking about fair, open, free access to the Internet. Right?\n\nThis is, you know, a fundamental part of, I think, modern American life at this point. And so one of the things that people can do is contact your members of Congress and tell them how much you value, a free and open Internet. You know, ask them to speak out. Ask them to to to work with Chairman Pai and the FCC and to interject with him and tell them, what this actually means to you as a constituent. Right?\n\nAnd even if you aren't able to get through to your member of congress to convince them, what this does is it creates an accountability structure. Right? If your member of congress does not stand up for what you believe in, right, then you have a reason to vote for someone else or to work towards someone else's selection in the next cycle. Right? This is obviously not an endorsement of, you know, voting for anybody else.\n\nI do not want to go that far.\n\nSpeaker 0: It's not\n\nSpeaker 2: a lot of declared candidates. You're safe right now.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. You can\n\nSpeaker 0: say whatever you want. Right?\n\nSpeaker 1: But, you know, to to the extent, hold your members of congress accountable. Right? If you value a free and open Internet, you should work with your members of congress to make sure it's protected. The second component of this is this is going to court. Right?\n\nThis is almost certainly going to be challenged, in court. I don't necessarily wanna go too deeply into legal arguments, but this is going to be challenged in court. This could be a two to three year process about whether or not the FCC is is acting within its authority as an agency. So, obviously, that's something where I think all of it at CT are going to remain engaged. I think it's a process that people should watch very closely.\n\nBut, you know, I understand that people are frustrated. I understand that people are upset. I think they should be, but this is by no means over.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. Well, it's a tough road ahead, but we're very lucky to have you working on it. Thanks so much for joining Tech Talk for us.\n\nSpeaker 1: Of course. Alright. Thanks, Brian.\n\nSpeaker 2: Section seven zero two of the foreign intelligence surveillance act is set to expire in four weeks. And according to our guest, current and former intelligent officials want us to believe that changing a single word in the statute will result in no less than the loss of American lives. CDTs Michelle Richardson thinks this is hyperbole, and it is obscuring the nature of proposed legislative reforms and preventing a fact based debate about how to protect everyday people from this broad surveillance authority. She is here to set some things straight. Welcome, Michelle.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank you, Brian. I'm happy to be here.\n\nSpeaker 2: So there are a few section seven zero two reform bills out out there. What do most of them do? What are the big ones we should be aware of?\n\nSpeaker 0: Sure. So now there are three major reform bills, and they all reauthorize the program and leave it largely untouched. The government will still be able to get an annual court order to surveil people abroad that then picks its targets, and they say they're about a 100,000 a year to collect phone calls, emails, and other information on as it crosses the Internet. The big debate though is how we should handle Americans' information that ends up in the database. They were not the targets, but they may be speaking to family, friends, and business associates overseas, and so their information is in NSA databases.\n\nSo the big fight is what should be the procedure for the government to access that information? Should they get a warrant, or should they stay with current rules that allow the government to search through that data looking for an American without any outside process.\n\nSpeaker 2: No court order. Nothing. They can just kinda go in there and look at that data?\n\nSpeaker 0: That is correct. And we don't even have statistics about how the FBI uses it, which is the biggest concern. They operate domestically. They can put people in jail, and so there are higher stakes there than some of the other intelligence agencies that really focus their work abroad. So we've requested that a warrant be put between the FBI and that information so that if they are intentionally looking for Americans, that an outside judge can confirm that the person has has done something wrong or suspected of doing something wrong.\n\nRight now, though, the bills for one, out of the house judiciary committee would only require a warrant if there is a criminal investigation. Out of the senate, we see a bill that would subject all access to content on behalf of the FBI to court review, but it would be after the fact and on a really low standard, for consistency with the fourth amendment. And what we saw is a a third proposal emerged just this past Friday, which is the intelligence committee. And they give the FBI the option of either getting a warrant or getting attorney general sign off that it's a national security or other important case. So those are the three structures we're looking at.\n\nBest case scenario, a very small percentage of the time the FBI will be getting a warrant in criminal investigations. But for the most part, the process will continue unabated.\n\nSpeaker 2: Oh, wow. And it seems, I mean, this is foreign intelligence surveillance. So why why should the FBI even be able to get in there and look about look about information about Americans and do anything about domestic crimes? That seems not right.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. There are two things here. One, the government claims that once information is collected, they could use it however they see fit.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: So it would be wrong for Congress to put any limitation on it. That is quite an overstatement of the rules, though. In The United States, one of the ways we protect privacy is that we limit the use of data the government collects. Right? So there's not one repository where your health and your tax and your communication and all your information is pooled so that any government actor can get to it.\n\nWe segregate it out, so that we can trust the government to collect this information for the purposes it's used. Second, the FBI says that criminal prosecutions are a part of their foreign intelligence mission. And in part of part of collecting and using all of this foreign intelligence, that means they may prosecute people. It may mean they want to use them as informants. It may mean they wanna take immigration actions and that whatever happens downstream is really in support of the bigger mission.\n\nAnd so they should have no limits on how they use the data.\n\nSpeaker 2: Interesting. So you tend to get let's go a little bit deeper on this a bit. You get cranky when, you hear intelligence agencies and law enforcement. Believe it or not, Michelle can get cranky. It's hard to believe.\n\nBut when they suggest that any changes to seven zero two will be catastrophic to their investigation. So you talked about it a little bit. But what's what's your challenge? Why are you concerned about this kind of line of argument from them? And I think you also mentioned a court case that they kind of use as their example whenever they trot out that argument.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. So the government is asking for a clean route authorization without any changes to to the law whatsoever, and they usually talk about this program in a way that really obscures the types of changes we're looking for. At this point, no one is proposing that we go back to getting warrants for everybody even if they're overseas. We're just saying after you collect the information and you intentionally go looking for an American in the databases, you get a warrant. The FBI just recently confirmed that they are only 4% of the seven zero two program altogether.\n\nAnd where this is only about the content of program altogether. And where this is only about the content of communications, and this is only about when you know you're looking for a specific American. So this is such a tiny fraction of the seven zero two program to represent these changes as a fundamental shift is really a misstatement. And that also doesn't even mention that there are many ways for the FBI and intelligence agencies to collect the information. If they are picking up this information outside of US boundaries, there's no court review at all.\n\nMhmm. And if they're here, they have incredible criminal authorities too, including emergency powers that allow them to collect content records and all sorts of information. The case that the government usually goes back to is called the Zazi case. This is, a case from 2008, 2009. Zazi was living in Colorado when he was in email communication with a known terrorist overseas.\n\nThis member of Al Qaeda received an email that said, I am planning the wedding. I just need my final instructions. It's urgent. Get back to me. And he was looking for, some final instructions on how to build a bomb for the New York subway.\n\nThis is charted out as an example of why we need the two. Yeah. Because, yes, it was collected under 07/2002, but nothing about that would be changed by the type of proposals we're looking at. You are now in an emergency situation when you have someone speaking to a known Al Qaeda operative saying, how do I build this bomb? You now have triggered so many government authorities.\n\nA search through the seven zero two database is really such a small small part of what they wanna do. And even if that is something they felt they needed to do for the investigation, every proposal that we are looking at has an emergency exception.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: It's a perfect example of what they shouldn't, not be using as as, you know, their their test case on 702 and backdoor searches because it shows you can reform the statute and respond to these ticking time bomb scenarios.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. So time is ticking away as we stick with the ticking here. Do any of these I mean, say at the December that they have to reauthorize at this point or take some action, do any of the proposals you mentioned earlier have a chance, or are we just going to see section seven zero two either be reauthorized cleanly or\n\nSpeaker 0: expire? Well, all three bills are incredibly moderate. I would say all of them have a fighting chance at this point. Okay. The problem with these always coming down at the end of the year is that they are competing with other issues for time.\n\nSpeaker 2: What the heck else could be going on right now?\n\nSpeaker 0: Right. The house and senate are committing serious amount of time to tax reform. Right? Funding for the government runs out in four days, so they will be working\n\nSpeaker 2: Oh, that's fine.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. A continuing resolution and then reportedly an omnibus. So, this will fall into other battles, and we are expecting that FISA reauthorization be tacked on to what the ultimate omnibus spending bill is, whether it's\n\nSpeaker 2: Oh, okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. In the next couple of weeks or maybe there's a short term extension to get it into January where it could be partnered up with those sort of larger proposals.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay. So what should, our listeners be doing right now if they're concerned about section seven zero two and they want what we want, you know, close that backdoor search? What should they be doing?\n\nSpeaker 0: They should be calling their senator and member of congress and tell them that you want your information protected by a warrant.\n\nSpeaker 2: It's a great talking point. Thank you so much, Michelle. Sorry. You have a busier than, perhaps expected December, but you're doing great things. And thanks for joining Tech Talk.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thanks, Brian.\n\nSpeaker 2: That's it for this episode of Tech Talk. For all the latest developments on net neutrality and government surveillance reform, visit CDT's website, cdt.org. And if you're feeling generous this holiday season and want to support an amazing nonprofit that advocates for your digital rights consider making a donation to CDT there's a bright blue link at the top of our website to make that easy for you I'm Brian Wazilowski happy holidays to all and thanks so much for listening", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to Tech Talk.", "start": 10.48, "end": 12.099999 }, { "text": "Bye.", "start": 12.24, "end": 12.74 } ], "start": 10.48, "end": 12.74, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "CT.", "start": 13.44, "end": 13.759999 }, { "text": "Tea.", "start": 13.759999, "end": 14.259999 } ], "start": 13.44, "end": 14.259999, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to CDT's tech talk where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives.", "start": 17.835, "end": 24.974998 }, { "text": "I'm Brian Wasilowski, and it's time to talk tech.", "start": 25.195, "end": 28.095 }, { "text": "Today, we'll be talking about two issues that are core to CDT's advocacy efforts.", "start": 28.634998, "end": 33.16 }, { "text": "In fact, two issues that we seem to keep talking about without resolution.", "start": 33.3, "end": 37.079998 }, { "text": "The first is net neutrality, which is an issue most Internet users thought was finally resolved back in 2015.", "start": 37.699997, "end": 43.8 } ], "start": 17.835, "end": 43.8, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Alas, that is clearly not the case with the FCC having unveiled its proposal to overturn the existing open Internet protections.", "start": 44.535, "end": 52.155 }, { "text": "We'll talk about what the chairman's proposal means and what the path ahead for supporters of net neutrality looks like.", "start": 52.775, "end": 58.715 }, { "text": "Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons.", "start": 59.27, "end": 71.77 }, { "text": "Then we'll be talking about US government surveillance and a rapidly approaching deadline on the reauthorization of a key surveillance law that allows for the collection of digital information about non US persons.", "start": 71.909996, "end": 83.265 }, { "text": "Will Congress address section seven zero two before the end of the year?", "start": 83.725, "end": 87.185 } ], "start": 44.535, "end": 87.185, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Do you know what I hate talking about?", "start": 91.57, "end": 93.590004 }, { "text": "Net neutrality.", "start": 94.21, "end": 94.950005 }, { "text": "And why do I hate talking about it?", "start": 95.57, "end": 97.75 }, { "text": "Because I thought this issue had been settled when the FCC put in place strong open Internet protections back in 2015.", "start": 97.81, "end": 104.630005 }, { "text": "Well, I was wrong as were many people, and the net neutrality protections are about to be formally eviscerated by the FCC under the leadership of Chairman Pai.", "start": 105.375, "end": 113.795 } ], "start": 91.57, "end": 113.795, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Here to give us the latest developments on Chairman Pai's plan to over turn overturn net neutrality is CDT's open Internet policy council, Faraz Vind.", "start": 114.255, "end": 123.42 }, { "text": "Welcome, Faraz.", "start": 123.479996, "end": 124.38 }, { "text": "Hi, Brian.", "start": 124.6, "end": 125.24 }, { "text": "Do you love talking about net neutrality as much as I do?", "start": 125.24, "end": 127.56 } ], "start": 114.255, "end": 127.56, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, I'm as excited as one can be to talk.", "start": 127.56, "end": 129.8 }, { "text": "It's it's not great.", "start": 129.8, "end": 131.56 }, { "text": "Things aren't great is", "start": 131.56, "end": 132.79396 } ], "start": 127.56, "end": 132.79396, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "basically Things are not great.", "start": 132.79396, "end": 134.59186 }, { "text": "That's the good top line here.", "start": 134.59186, "end": 136.38977 }, { "text": "So Chairman Pai, he released his proposal to overturn the open Internet rules that were enacted under the prior chairman, Tom Wheeler.", "start": 136.38977, "end": 142.98209 }, { "text": "What exactly does his proposal do?", "start": 142.98209, "end": 144.78 }, { "text": "Is it a done deal?", "start": 144.78, "end": 146.23999 } ], "start": 132.79396, "end": 146.23999, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there's a lot here.", "start": 146.3, "end": 147.9 } ], "start": 146.3, "end": 147.9, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The repeal itself is over 200 pages of rules and legal justifications.", "start": 148.14, "end": 151.52 } ], "start": 148.14, "end": 151.52, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Did you read them all?", "start": 152.22, "end": 153.28 } ], "start": 152.22, "end": 153.28, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I got through a good portion of it with some breaks.", "start": 153.74, "end": 157.2 }, { "text": "You you know, I I needed coffee and snacks and a nap or two to get through.", "start": 158.14, "end": 162.64499 }, { "text": "It's a lot.", "start": 162.64499, "end": 163.125 }, { "text": "It's a lot.", "start": 163.125, "end": 163.685 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 163.685, "end": 164.165 } ], "start": 153.74, "end": 164.165, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, I I think that, for everyday people, there's probably three main takeaways that we should, you know, keep in mind as we move forward on this.", "start": 164.165, "end": 173.78665 }, { "text": "So first of all, his proposal appeals to three bright line protections.", "start": 173.78665, "end": 177.65999 }, { "text": "That's blocking, throttling, and pay prioritization.", "start": 178.28, "end": 180.54 }, { "text": "So, what this really means for consumers moving forward is that the FCC will net will no longer be able to shield consumers from blocking or throttling by their ISPs, and it will allow, ISPs to charge companies for faster access to users.", "start": 180.92, "end": 195.655 } ], "start": 164.165, "end": 195.655, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So blocking and throttling means, just to be clear", "start": 195.795, "end": 197.95499 } ], "start": 195.795, "end": 197.95499, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 198.19499, "end": 198.435 }, { "text": "So blocking means, essentially, the ISP prevents people from viewing, certain websites or certain content.", "start": 198.435, "end": 206.54999 } ], "start": 198.19499, "end": 206.54999, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 206.54999, "end": 207.03 } ], "start": 206.54999, "end": 207.03, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 207.03, "end": 207.34999 }, { "text": "Thralling just means slowing it down.", "start": 207.34999, "end": 209.19 }, { "text": "So I I think the most prominent example that we when we think about throttling, what we're really thinking about is the example of what happened with Netflix a few years back when, basically, ISP slowed down access, to Netflix.", "start": 209.19, "end": 223.655 }, { "text": "And so there there's some consumer outcry about that.", "start": 223.715, "end": 226.69499 }, { "text": "You know, Netflix was compelled to make an agreement for, you know, better service.", "start": 227.155, "end": 230.76 } ], "start": 207.03, "end": 230.76, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I think that generally when we're thinking about thralling, that is more or less, the prime example that people think about, when we're talking about that.", "start": 231.22, "end": 238.54001 } ], "start": 231.22, "end": 238.54001, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perfect sense.", "start": 238.66, "end": 239.48 }, { "text": "Okay.", "start": 239.54, "end": 240.04 }, { "text": "Sorry.", "start": 240.09999, "end": 240.42 }, { "text": "So you were on point two.", "start": 240.42, "end": 241.78 } ], "start": 238.66, "end": 241.78, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 241.78, "end": 242.02 } ], "start": 241.78, "end": 242.02, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and so, you know, point two, it prevents states and localities from implementing their very own net neutrality, protections.", "start": 242.02, "end": 250.05501 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 250.515, "end": 250.755 }, { "text": "So it preempts state and local actions.", "start": 250.755, "end": 252.675 }, { "text": "So if you are in an area of the country that, where you have proactive legislators who see what's happening in the FCC and want to protect, their citizens from that sort of action and those sorts of practices from ISPs, this action in theory, prevents states and localities from doing so.", "start": 252.675, "end": 269.89 }, { "text": "I think that it will probably be challenged in in court, obviously, like the rest of this order.", "start": 269.89, "end": 273.865 } ], "start": 242.02, "end": 273.865, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But for the time being, that's a part, of the rule making put forward by the FCC.", "start": 273.865, "end": 278.685 } ], "start": 273.865, "end": 278.685, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Is this the FCC learning their lessons by a lot of states trying to enact broadband privacy laws after they overturn those?", "start": 278.905, "end": 285.305 } ], "start": 278.905, "end": 285.305, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think that's a part of that.", "start": 285.305, "end": 286.77 }, { "text": "And in the run up to the final order, we saw a number of ISPs submit ex parte filings with the agency asking for this sort of preemption, asking for the FCC to step in and prevent states and localities from doing this.", "start": 286.84998, "end": 301.725 }, { "text": "This was not, I believe, a part of the initial notice of proposed rulemaking.", "start": 302.285, "end": 306.625 }, { "text": "This is a new addition.", "start": 306.685, "end": 307.825 }, { "text": "But, you know, I I think it is a reaction to what a lot of states and and localities have done on broadband privacy.", "start": 308.765, "end": 315.63998 } ], "start": 285.305, "end": 315.63998, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, there's, I think, some concern from ISPs that they're going to be forced to respond to a patchwork Mhmm.", "start": 316.25998, "end": 321.9 }, { "text": "Of of state and local regulations regarding net neutrality.", "start": 322.02, "end": 325.0 }, { "text": "You know, of course, the easy way out for them is to just not violate principles of net neutrality.", "start": 325.69998, "end": 330.195 }, { "text": "Abide by the terms of the open Internet order.", "start": 330.195, "end": 332.375 }, { "text": "But, you know, obviously, I think that if they believe that these rules are restrictive, they want to block it any way, shape, or form and this is a step forward in the way of doing that.", "start": 332.755, "end": 341.23502 } ], "start": 316.25998, "end": 341.23502, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 341.23502, "end": 341.635 } ], "start": 341.23502, "end": 341.635, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, finally, this advocates protections of cons of consumers, to the FTC.", "start": 341.875, "end": 346.91 } ], "start": 341.875, "end": 346.91, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 347.37, "end": 347.53 } ], "start": 347.37, "end": 347.53, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, I think this is the component that doesn't really get quite as much attention, but, you know, we can discuss this in detail a little bit.", "start": 347.69, "end": 353.77002 } ], "start": 347.69, "end": 353.77002, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 353.77002, "end": 353.93002 }, { "text": "Give it let's go right to it.", "start": 353.93002, "end": 355.37 }, { "text": "I mean, a lot folks know, about the FTC.", "start": 355.61002, "end": 358.38498 }, { "text": "A lot may not know exactly what it does.", "start": 358.845, "end": 361.085 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 361.085, "end": 361.32498 } ], "start": 353.77002, "end": 361.32498, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So what would this rule change?", "start": 361.32498, "end": 362.685 }, { "text": "How does the FTC now play in net neutrality?", "start": 362.685, "end": 365.025 } ], "start": 361.32498, "end": 365.025, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, you know, on the surface, it would appear there's not necessarily anything wrong with shifting protection of consumers from one agency to another.", "start": 365.485, "end": 372.83002 }, { "text": "You know, I really want to stress on the outset that the FTC is an important agency that staff with a lot of hardworking, you know, passionate, dedicated public servants.", "start": 373.29, "end": 382.67 }, { "text": "You know, I I say this in part because I have a friend who works there as a staff attorney.", "start": 382.81, "end": 386.615 }, { "text": "But, you know, this is you know, it is an important agency in the general consumer protection framework.", "start": 387.555, "end": 391.97498 }, { "text": "But at the same time, you know, the agency does not have, the same sort of authority to protect consumers compared to the FCC.", "start": 392.435, "end": 400.375 } ], "start": 365.485, "end": 400.375, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It does not have, let's say, the same sort of network engineering experience and it does not have the same rule making authority, as the FCC.", "start": 400.96, "end": 408.25998 }, { "text": "So, you know, when I talk about rule making, what this really means is that is that the FTC can only pursue violations of consumer rights after the fact.", "start": 409.59998, "end": 418.795 }, { "text": "So, you know", "start": 419.415, "end": 419.89502 } ], "start": 400.96, "end": 419.89502, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we need the big story of something terrible happening, like someone throttling my beloved Buffalo Bills livestream as they beat your Indianapolis Colts next week.", "start": 419.975, "end": 427.85498 } ], "start": 419.975, "end": 427.85498, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I don't really know why you would want to watch the Bills, I think.", "start": 427.85498, "end": 431.09 } ], "start": 427.85498, "end": 431.09, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I don't either.", "start": 431.09, "end": 431.73 }, { "text": "I've been doing it for", "start": 431.73, "end": 432.87 } ], "start": 431.09, "end": 432.87, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "too long.", "start": 433.09, "end": 433.41 }, { "text": "Fair point.", "start": 433.41, "end": 434.05002 } ], "start": 433.09, "end": 434.05002, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "See for you.", "start": 434.21, "end": 435.03 } ], "start": 434.21, "end": 435.03, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Any case, so, you know, it it basically, you know, they can only pursue cases on they can only pursue violations on a case by case basis.", "start": 437.17, "end": 445.04498 } ], "start": 437.17, "end": 445.04498, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 445.04498, "end": 445.365 } ], "start": 445.04498, "end": 445.365, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 445.365, "end": 445.525 }, { "text": "And the problem with this, particularly in the context of consumer privacy, is that all a lot of these major ISPs have so many subscribers.", "start": 445.525, "end": 452.985 }, { "text": "And this means that millions of people are going to be subject to privacy harms before the FTC takes action.", "start": 454.245, "end": 460.49002 }, { "text": "You know, and even then, the agency can only correct the specific practices of the offending ISP.", "start": 461.19, "end": 467.53 }, { "text": "And, you know, given how given the the very nature of privacy harms, right, these harms are specific.", "start": 468.07, "end": 474.975 } ], "start": 445.365, "end": 474.975, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They are difficult to correct.", "start": 475.035, "end": 476.495 }, { "text": "You know, because of that, a proactive rule making structure is really, really helpful in this context.", "start": 477.035, "end": 482.735 }, { "text": "But it's not something it is not a power that the FTC currently has.", "start": 482.875, "end": 487.375 }, { "text": "But, you know, more than that, there's another point here that I really want to highlight.", "start": 488.07498, "end": 491.99 }, { "text": "You know, right now, it's not even clear that the FTC has a legal authority to regulate many ISPs.", "start": 492.69, "end": 498.55 } ], "start": 475.035, "end": 498.55, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, the FTC act exempts common carriers, like voice telephone service from its jurisdiction.", "start": 499.65, "end": 506.57498 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 506.875, "end": 507.115 }, { "text": "So the agency cannot regulate common carriers.", "start": 507.115, "end": 510.335 }, { "text": "And right now, there's a case in the Ninth Circuit, which is on the West Coast, regarding the scope of this exemption.", "start": 510.715, "end": 516.815 }, { "text": "And the court in that in the case found that, if a corporation if any component of a corporation has a common carrier component to it, then it is outside Right?", "start": 517.74, "end": 536.905 } ], "start": 499.65, "end": 536.905, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's AT and T.", "start": 536.905, "end": 538.265 }, { "text": "That's Verizon.", "start": 538.265, "end": 539.16504 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 539.305, "end": 539.625 }, { "text": "So if you are an Internet service provider that also provides voice telephone service or any other sort of common carrier service, you are theoretically outside the jurisdiction of the FTC", "start": 539.625, "end": 551.74 } ], "start": 536.905, "end": 551.74, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "at this", "start": 551.74, "end": 552.26 } ], "start": 551.74, "end": 552.26, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "point in time.", "start": 552.26, "end": 553.16 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 553.7, "end": 553.94 }, { "text": "And now it's, you know, it's worth noting that this case is currently under appeal.", "start": 553.94, "end": 557.77997 }, { "text": "It's going to go before the it's gone before the entire ninth circuit.", "start": 557.77997, "end": 561.08496 }, { "text": "They've already had arguments in the case.", "start": 561.08496, "end": 562.70496 } ], "start": 552.26, "end": 562.70496, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Now I I would also mention that FCC knows about this.", "start": 563.005, "end": 565.565 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 565.565, "end": 565.805 }, { "text": "This is something that we mentioned in our own filings with the agency.", "start": 565.805, "end": 568.70496 }, { "text": "This is something that commissioner Brendan Carr said himself, when he was general counsel of the agency,", "start": 569.08496, "end": 573.585 } ], "start": 563.005, "end": 573.585, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "in a filing with the", "start": 573.605, "end": 573.70496 } ], "start": 573.605, "end": 573.70496, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "ninth circuit.", "start": 573.70496, "end": 574.225 }, { "text": "He current state of the law creates an open gap in the federal regulatory regime.", "start": 574.605, "end": 581.46 }, { "text": "That's a direct quote.", "start": 581.46, "end": 582.76 }, { "text": "Wow.", "start": 582.9, "end": 583.30005 }, { "text": "And what this really is is, you know, the f the FCC is essentially blindfolding consumers, blindfolding consumers, pushing them into the middle of a busy highway at night, and trusting that oncoming traffic is going to see them in time to stop.", "start": 583.30005, "end": 596.17505 } ], "start": 573.70496, "end": 596.17505, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, it's reckless.", "start": 596.555, "end": 597.59503 }, { "text": "It's a form of administrative malpractice.", "start": 597.59503, "end": 599.455 }, { "text": "And I think that, you know, if the FCC moves forward without taking this into account, it's a betrayal of the public trust.", "start": 599.835, "end": 606.33 } ], "start": 596.555, "end": 606.33, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You worked really hard on that one.", "start": 606.39, "end": 607.83 } ], "start": 606.39, "end": 607.83, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I did.", "start": 607.83, "end": 608.31 } ], "start": 607.83, "end": 608.31, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That was good.", "start": 608.31, "end": 608.95 }, { "text": "That was good for us.", "start": 608.95, "end": 609.83 } ], "start": 608.31, "end": 609.83, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 609.83, "end": 610.15 } ], "start": 609.83, "end": 610.15, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Alright.", "start": 610.15, "end": 610.55 }, { "text": "So, let's now pivot to the ISPs.", "start": 610.55, "end": 614.01 }, { "text": "What do you you know, this is I get a little bit of speculation.", "start": 614.31, "end": 617.755 }, { "text": "Do you think, some of this kind of worst case scenario stuff that people talk about, the blocking, the throttling, do you think they're gonna start doing it?", "start": 617.895, "end": 624.875 }, { "text": "What's going to happen for the kind of Internet users they interact with these ISPs?", "start": 626.055, "end": 629.835 } ], "start": 610.15, "end": 629.835, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So after the last election cycle, I'm really hesitant to start making any predictions.", "start": 630.3, "end": 635.27997 }, { "text": "You know, anything could happen.", "start": 636.7, "end": 638.54 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 638.54, "end": 639.04 }, { "text": "But in theory, with the repeal of these rules, these protections, ISPs will be free to block or throttle traffic or implement paid prioritization schemes at at will, in violation of of net neutrality principles.", "start": 640.14, "end": 651.695 }, { "text": "You know, and this might be wishful thinking, on the behalf of consumers, but I don't think they're going to end up going quite that far at least in the short term.", "start": 652.795, "end": 661.19 } ], "start": 630.3, "end": 661.19, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 661.41003, "end": 661.73 }, { "text": "I I think that ISPs are going to be constrained by the realities of the electoral process and and by agency rulemaking.", "start": 661.73, "end": 668.31 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 669.01, "end": 669.33 }, { "text": "So, you know, first, it's worth noting that the FCC chairman is appointed by the president.", "start": 669.33, "end": 675.025 }, { "text": "And without taking a position one way or another on the tenure of the current office holder, I think that given that we may have a a new president in three or so years, there is incentive on behalf of ISBs not to provide a pretext for a shift in rules under new FCC leadership.", "start": 675.325, "end": 697.15 } ], "start": 661.41003, "end": 697.15, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's one component of it.", "start": 697.37, "end": 699.15 }, { "text": "Another part of this is the fact that if the FCCs take any drastic step forward that handicaps innovation from edge providers, you know, Internet based companies, right, there becomes, there it creates, you know, it creates a showing of harm, right, which could then create the kind of grounds necessary to have a stay in court, regarding the net neutrality or appeal.", "start": 699.53, "end": 722.42 }, { "text": "So, you know, with all of this in mind, it's really within the best interests of these ISBs to show that they can be good actors and can and can self regulate.", "start": 723.75995, "end": 731.675 }, { "text": "You know, in the short term, I might expect ISPs to allow for some form of pay prioritization on a limited basis.", "start": 731.97504, "end": 738.875 }, { "text": "But, you know, again, a lot of this is speculation.", "start": 739.655, "end": 741.675 } ], "start": 697.37, "end": 741.675, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A lot of this is contingent on the kind of, you know, political and and legal environment that we're walking into.", "start": 741.735, "end": 747.54 }, { "text": "The hope is that, you know, ISPs defy, some of these expectations moving forward and maintain some form of net neutrality principles.", "start": 748.31995, "end": 757.06 }, { "text": "But and, again, I I do think think that there is going to be some form of accountability from from the building public, on some of these issues.", "start": 757.51996, "end": 764.145 } ], "start": 741.735, "end": 764.145, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, sure.", "start": 764.145, "end": 764.545 }, { "text": "And public sentiment with all that pulling seems to very much be on the side of pro net neutrality, so we shall see.", "start": 764.545, "end": 770.865 }, { "text": "So give me a quick, quick play out here.", "start": 770.865, "end": 773.14 }, { "text": "I was also very impressed by how measured you were in talking about this, current administration.", "start": 773.14, "end": 777.32 }, { "text": "Well done.", "start": 777.54, "end": 778.27997 } ], "start": 764.145, "end": 778.27997, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What's next?", "start": 778.98, "end": 779.7 }, { "text": "What you know, if you are someone who cares about net neutrality, what's the path ahead look like if you're you're hoping that these, open Internet rules might be restored or that, you know, strong net neutrality could be back in play?", "start": 779.7, "end": 791.63495 }, { "text": "What's what's what's the landscape look like?", "start": 791.63495, "end": 794.51495 } ], "start": 778.98, "end": 794.51495, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there's going to be a vote on this on the net neutrality appeal at the FCC on December 14.", "start": 794.51495, "end": 800.58 }, { "text": "You know, there admittedly are limited leverage or pardon me, limited opportunities for us to intervene directly with the agency at this point.", "start": 800.82, "end": 809.96 }, { "text": "It seems like the three votes are there on the Republican side of the commission to get this through.", "start": 810.02, "end": 815.445 }, { "text": "You know, that being said, there's two things I think that people can can do and two things I think, are going to be, you know, active levers for, you know, both folks here at CDT and also, you know, for the general public to get involved in terms of protecting principles of net neutrality.", "start": 816.38495, "end": 832.76996 }, { "text": "You know, the first thing that I think that the general public can and should do is contact your members of congress.", "start": 833.31, "end": 838.52997 } ], "start": 794.51495, "end": 838.52997, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 838.82996, "end": 839.14996 }, { "text": "So there's not necessarily", "start": 839.14996, "end": 840.105 } ], "start": 838.82996, "end": 840.105, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "up those phones.", "start": 840.345, "end": 841.145 } ], "start": 840.345, "end": 841.145, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Exactly.", "start": 841.145, "end": 841.645 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 841.705, "end": 842.02496 }, { "text": "And, you know, I understand there's so much going on.", "start": 842.02496, "end": 844.745 }, { "text": "It feels like every day there's another crisis.", "start": 844.745, "end": 847.645 }, { "text": "You know, the obviously, the tax tax bill is getting a lot of attention.", "start": 848.345, "end": 851.545 } ], "start": 841.145, "end": 851.545, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 851.545, "end": 851.705 }, { "text": "We've gone through the health care, the the ACA repeal.", "start": 851.705, "end": 855.33 }, { "text": "But, you know, this is another one I think of those fundamental issues.", "start": 856.75, "end": 860.21 }, { "text": "We're talking about fair, open, free access to the Internet.", "start": 860.43, "end": 865.95 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 865.95, "end": 866.11005 } ], "start": 851.545, "end": 866.11005, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is, you know, a fundamental part of, I think, modern American life at this point.", "start": 866.11005, "end": 870.065 }, { "text": "And so one of the things that people can do is contact your members of Congress and tell them how much you value, a free and open Internet.", "start": 870.065, "end": 878.885 }, { "text": "You know, ask them to speak out.", "start": 879.505, "end": 881.025 }, { "text": "Ask them to to to work with Chairman Pai and the FCC and to interject with him and tell them, what this actually means to you as a constituent.", "start": 881.025, "end": 889.91 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 890.52997, "end": 890.85 } ], "start": 866.11005, "end": 890.85, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And even if you aren't able to get through to your member of congress to convince them, what this does is it creates an accountability structure.", "start": 890.85, "end": 897.945 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 898.165, "end": 898.565 }, { "text": "If your member of congress does not stand up for what you believe in, right, then you have a reason to vote for someone else or to work towards someone else's selection in the next cycle.", "start": 898.565, "end": 908.665 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 908.885, "end": 909.045 }, { "text": "This is obviously not an endorsement of, you know, voting for anybody else.", "start": 909.045, "end": 912.71 } ], "start": 890.85, "end": 912.71, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I do not want to go that far.", "start": 912.71, "end": 913.99 } ], "start": 912.71, "end": 913.99, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's not", "start": 913.99, "end": 914.15 } ], "start": 913.99, "end": 914.15, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "a lot of declared candidates.", "start": 914.15, "end": 915.43 }, { "text": "You're safe right now.", "start": 915.43, "end": 916.23 } ], "start": 914.15, "end": 916.23, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 916.23, "end": 916.31 }, { "text": "You can", "start": 916.31, "end": 916.55 } ], "start": 916.23, "end": 916.55, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "say whatever you want.", "start": 916.55, "end": 917.51 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 917.51, "end": 918.01 } ], "start": 916.55, "end": 918.01, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, to to the extent, hold your members of congress accountable.", "start": 918.15, "end": 921.77 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 922.15, "end": 922.47 }, { "text": "If you value a free and open Internet, you should work with your members of congress to make sure it's protected.", "start": 922.47, "end": 926.91504 }, { "text": "The second component of this is this is going to court.", "start": 927.53503, "end": 930.255 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 930.255, "end": 930.495 } ], "start": 918.15, "end": 930.495, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is almost certainly going to be challenged, in court.", "start": 930.495, "end": 933.61505 }, { "text": "I don't necessarily wanna go too deeply into legal arguments, but this is going to be challenged in court.", "start": 933.61505, "end": 938.575 }, { "text": "This could be a two to three year process about whether or not the FCC is is acting within its authority as an agency.", "start": 938.575, "end": 945.4 }, { "text": "So, obviously, that's something where I think all of it at CT are going to remain engaged.", "start": 945.94, "end": 949.46 }, { "text": "I think it's a process that people should watch very closely.", "start": 949.46, "end": 951.96 } ], "start": 930.495, "end": 951.96, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, I understand that people are frustrated.", "start": 953.14, "end": 955.765 }, { "text": "I understand that people are upset.", "start": 955.765, "end": 957.205 }, { "text": "I think they should be, but this is by no means over.", "start": 957.205, "end": 959.685 } ], "start": 953.14, "end": 959.685, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 959.685, "end": 959.925 }, { "text": "Well, it's a tough road ahead, but we're very lucky to have you working on it.", "start": 959.925, "end": 962.96497 }, { "text": "Thanks so much for joining Tech Talk for us.", "start": 962.96497, "end": 964.725 } ], "start": 959.685, "end": 964.725, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Of course.", "start": 964.725, "end": 965.125 }, { "text": "Alright.", "start": 965.125, "end": 965.445 }, { "text": "Thanks, Brian.", "start": 965.445, "end": 966.265 } ], "start": 964.725, "end": 966.265, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Section seven zero two of the foreign intelligence surveillance act is set to expire in four weeks.", "start": 971.25, "end": 976.79 }, { "text": "And according to our guest, current and former intelligent officials want us to believe that changing a single word in the statute will result in no less than the loss of American lives.", "start": 976.93, "end": 987.875 }, { "text": "CDTs Michelle Richardson thinks this is hyperbole, and it is obscuring the nature of proposed legislative reforms and preventing a fact based debate about how to protect everyday people from this broad surveillance authority.", "start": 988.335, "end": 1001.42 }, { "text": "She is here to set some things straight.", "start": 1001.8, "end": 1003.48 }, { "text": "Welcome, Michelle.", "start": 1003.48, "end": 1004.38 } ], "start": 971.25, "end": 1004.38, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you, Brian.", "start": 1004.60004, "end": 1005.32 }, { "text": "I'm happy to be here.", "start": 1005.32, "end": 1006.46 } ], "start": 1004.60004, "end": 1006.46, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there are a few section seven zero two reform bills out out there.", "start": 1006.52, "end": 1010.775 }, { "text": "What do most of them do?", "start": 1010.775, "end": 1012.055 }, { "text": "What are the big ones we should be aware of?", "start": 1012.055, "end": 1014.075 } ], "start": 1006.52, "end": 1014.075, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 1014.695, "end": 1015.09503 }, { "text": "So now there are three major reform bills, and they all reauthorize the program and leave it largely untouched.", "start": 1015.09503, "end": 1024.25 }, { "text": "The government will still be able to get an annual court order to surveil people abroad that then picks its targets, and they say they're about a 100,000 a year to collect phone calls, emails, and other information on as it crosses the Internet.", "start": 1024.31, "end": 1038.9349 }, { "text": "The big debate though is how we should handle Americans' information that ends up in the database.", "start": 1039.875, "end": 1044.855 }, { "text": "They were not the targets, but they may be speaking to family, friends, and business associates overseas, and so their information is in NSA databases.", "start": 1045.235, "end": 1054.4099 } ], "start": 1014.695, "end": 1054.4099, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So the big fight is what should be the procedure for the government to access that information?", "start": 1055.11, "end": 1060.6499 }, { "text": "Should they get a warrant, or should they stay with current rules that allow the government to search through that data looking for an American without any outside process.", "start": 1061.11, "end": 1071.2251 } ], "start": 1055.11, "end": 1071.2251, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "No court order.", "start": 1071.685, "end": 1072.645 }, { "text": "Nothing.", "start": 1072.645, "end": 1073.045 }, { "text": "They can just kinda go in there and look at that data?", "start": 1073.045, "end": 1075.4651 } ], "start": 1071.685, "end": 1075.4651, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That is correct.", "start": 1075.8451, "end": 1076.7251 }, { "text": "And we don't even have statistics about how the FBI uses it, which is the biggest concern.", "start": 1076.7251, "end": 1081.8601 }, { "text": "They operate domestically.", "start": 1081.8601, "end": 1083.0801 }, { "text": "They can put people in jail, and so there are higher stakes there than some of the other intelligence agencies that really focus their work abroad.", "start": 1084.1001, "end": 1091.9601 }, { "text": "So we've requested that a warrant be put between the FBI and that information so that if they are intentionally looking for Americans, that an outside judge can confirm that the person has has done something wrong or suspected of doing something wrong.", "start": 1092.5751, "end": 1109.2899 } ], "start": 1075.8451, "end": 1109.2899, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right now, though, the bills for one, out of the house judiciary committee would only require a warrant if there is a criminal investigation.", "start": 1110.07, "end": 1120.25 }, { "text": "Out of the senate, we see a bill that would subject all access to content on behalf of the FBI to court review, but it would be after the fact and on a really low standard, for consistency with the fourth amendment.", "start": 1121.9349, "end": 1136.27 }, { "text": "And what we saw is a a third proposal emerged just this past Friday, which is the intelligence committee.", "start": 1136.27, "end": 1142.45 }, { "text": "And they give the FBI the option of either getting a warrant or getting attorney general sign off that it's a national security or other important case.", "start": 1142.75, "end": 1152.045 }, { "text": "So those are the three structures we're looking at.", "start": 1152.1849, "end": 1154.445 } ], "start": 1110.07, "end": 1154.445, "num_words": 121.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Best case scenario, a very small percentage of the time the FBI will be getting a warrant in criminal investigations.", "start": 1154.905, "end": 1161.325 }, { "text": "But for the most part, the process will continue unabated.", "start": 1161.865, "end": 1165.25 } ], "start": 1154.905, "end": 1165.25, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, wow.", "start": 1165.63, "end": 1166.27 }, { "text": "And it seems, I mean, this is foreign intelligence surveillance.", "start": 1166.27, "end": 1169.25 }, { "text": "So why why should the FBI even be able to get in there and look about look about information about Americans and do anything about domestic crimes?", "start": 1169.39, "end": 1177.9501 }, { "text": "That seems not right.", "start": 1177.9501, "end": 1180.025 } ], "start": 1165.63, "end": 1180.025, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1180.7251, "end": 1181.2051 }, { "text": "There are two things here.", "start": 1181.2051, "end": 1182.485 }, { "text": "One, the government claims that once information is collected, they could use it however they see fit.", "start": 1182.485, "end": 1187.285 } ], "start": 1180.7251, "end": 1187.285, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1187.285, "end": 1187.6051 } ], "start": 1187.285, "end": 1187.6051, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it would be wrong for Congress to put any limitation on it.", "start": 1187.6051, "end": 1190.745 }, { "text": "That is quite an overstatement of the rules, though.", "start": 1190.885, "end": 1193.46 }, { "text": "In The United States, one of the ways we protect privacy is that we limit the use of data the government collects.", "start": 1193.7, "end": 1199.96 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1200.26, "end": 1200.58 }, { "text": "So there's not one repository where your health and your tax and your communication and all your information is pooled so that any government actor can get to it.", "start": 1200.58, "end": 1210.0349 } ], "start": 1187.6051, "end": 1210.0349, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We segregate it out, so that we can trust the government to collect this information for the purposes it's used.", "start": 1210.0349, "end": 1216.7749 }, { "text": "Second, the FBI says that criminal prosecutions are a part of their foreign intelligence mission.", "start": 1217.3949, "end": 1221.2971 }, { "text": "And in part of part of collecting and using all of this foreign intelligence, that means they may prosecute people.", "start": 1221.2971, "end": 1230.42 }, { "text": "It may mean they want to use them as informants.", "start": 1231.92, "end": 1235.4601 }, { "text": "It may mean they wanna take immigration actions and that whatever happens downstream is really in support of the bigger mission.", "start": 1236.0, "end": 1242.695 } ], "start": 1210.0349, "end": 1242.695, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so they should have no limits on how they use the data.", "start": 1242.695, "end": 1245.355 } ], "start": 1242.695, "end": 1245.355, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Interesting.", "start": 1245.735, "end": 1246.235 }, { "text": "So you tend to get let's go a little bit deeper on this a bit.", "start": 1247.2549, "end": 1250.1349 }, { "text": "You get cranky when, you hear intelligence agencies and law enforcement.", "start": 1250.1349, "end": 1253.9299 }, { "text": "Believe it or not, Michelle can get cranky.", "start": 1253.9299, "end": 1255.61 }, { "text": "It's hard to believe.", "start": 1255.61, "end": 1256.59 } ], "start": 1245.735, "end": 1256.59, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But when they suggest that any changes to seven zero two will be catastrophic to their investigation.", "start": 1256.97, "end": 1261.95 }, { "text": "So you talked about it a little bit.", "start": 1262.09, "end": 1263.77 }, { "text": "But what's what's your challenge?", "start": 1263.77, "end": 1265.175 }, { "text": "Why are you concerned about this kind of line of argument from them?", "start": 1265.5751, "end": 1269.175 }, { "text": "And I think you also mentioned a court case that they kind of use as their example whenever they trot out that argument.", "start": 1269.175, "end": 1274.9551 } ], "start": 1256.97, "end": 1274.9551, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1275.5751, "end": 1275.9751 }, { "text": "So the government is asking for a clean route authorization without any changes to to the law whatsoever, and they usually talk about this program in a way that really obscures the types of changes we're looking for.", "start": 1275.9751, "end": 1288.42 }, { "text": "At this point, no one is proposing that we go back to getting warrants for everybody even if they're overseas.", "start": 1288.48, "end": 1294.005 }, { "text": "We're just saying after you collect the information and you intentionally go looking for an American in the databases, you get a warrant.", "start": 1295.605, "end": 1302.985 }, { "text": "The FBI just recently confirmed that they are only 4% of the seven zero two program altogether.", "start": 1303.765, "end": 1308.4419 } ], "start": 1275.5751, "end": 1308.4419, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And where this is only about the content of program altogether.", "start": 1308.4419, "end": 1311.7268 }, { "text": "And where this is only about the content of communications, and this is only about when you know you're looking for a specific American.", "start": 1311.7334, "end": 1318.02 }, { "text": "So this is such a tiny fraction of the seven zero two program to represent these changes as a fundamental shift is really a misstatement.", "start": 1318.4, "end": 1326.5349 }, { "text": "And that also doesn't even mention that there are many ways for the FBI and intelligence agencies to collect the information.", "start": 1327.235, "end": 1334.615 }, { "text": "If they are picking up this information outside of US boundaries, there's no court review at all.", "start": 1334.995, "end": 1340.85 } ], "start": 1308.4419, "end": 1340.85, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1340.85, "end": 1341.17 }, { "text": "And if they're here, they have incredible criminal authorities too, including emergency powers that allow them to collect content records and all sorts of information.", "start": 1341.17, "end": 1349.75 }, { "text": "The case that the government usually goes back to is called the Zazi case.", "start": 1350.85, "end": 1355.3251 }, { "text": "This is, a case from 2008, 2009.", "start": 1355.385, "end": 1358.685 }, { "text": "Zazi was living in Colorado when he was in email communication with a known terrorist overseas.", "start": 1359.7051, "end": 1365.9651 } ], "start": 1340.85, "end": 1365.9651, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This member of Al Qaeda received an email that said, I am planning the wedding.", "start": 1366.29, "end": 1372.13 }, { "text": "I just need my final instructions.", "start": 1372.13, "end": 1373.65 }, { "text": "It's urgent.", "start": 1373.65, "end": 1374.29 }, { "text": "Get back to me.", "start": 1374.29, "end": 1375.27 }, { "text": "And he was looking for, some final instructions on how to build a bomb for the New York subway.", "start": 1375.89, "end": 1380.79 } ], "start": 1366.29, "end": 1380.79, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is charted out as an example of why we need the two.", "start": 1381.8049, "end": 1385.085 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1385.085, "end": 1385.245 }, { "text": "Because, yes, it was collected under 07/2002, but nothing about that would be changed by the type of proposals we're looking at.", "start": 1385.245, "end": 1392.225 }, { "text": "You are now in an emergency situation when you have someone speaking to a known Al Qaeda operative saying, how do I build this bomb?", "start": 1393.74, "end": 1402.22 }, { "text": "You now have triggered so many government authorities.", "start": 1402.22, "end": 1404.8 } ], "start": 1381.8049, "end": 1404.8, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A search through the seven zero two database is really such a small small part of what they wanna do.", "start": 1405.34, "end": 1410.5851 }, { "text": "And even if that is something they felt they needed to do for the investigation, every proposal that we are looking at has an emergency exception.", "start": 1410.5851, "end": 1418.765 } ], "start": 1405.34, "end": 1418.765, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1419.0651, "end": 1419.5651 } ], "start": 1419.0651, "end": 1419.5651, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's a perfect example of what they shouldn't, not be using as as, you know, their their test case on 702 and backdoor searches because it shows you can reform the statute and respond to these ticking time bomb scenarios.", "start": 1419.625, "end": 1433.34 } ], "start": 1419.625, "end": 1433.34, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1434.12, "end": 1434.4401 }, { "text": "So time is ticking away as we stick with the ticking here.", "start": 1434.4401, "end": 1437.7749 }, { "text": "Do any of these I mean, say at the December that they have to reauthorize at this point or take some action, do any of the proposals you mentioned earlier have a chance, or are we just going to see section seven zero two either be reauthorized cleanly or", "start": 1438.235, "end": 1451.375 } ], "start": 1434.12, "end": 1451.375, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "expire?", "start": 1452.91, "end": 1453.31 }, { "text": "Well, all three bills are incredibly moderate.", "start": 1453.31, "end": 1456.37 }, { "text": "I would say all of them have a fighting chance at this point.", "start": 1456.5901, "end": 1459.73 }, { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1460.03, "end": 1460.53 }, { "text": "The problem with these always coming down at the end of the year is that they are competing with other issues for time.", "start": 1461.15, "end": 1467.0751 } ], "start": 1452.91, "end": 1467.0751, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What the heck else could be going on right now?", "start": 1467.0751, "end": 1469.3351 } ], "start": 1467.0751, "end": 1469.3351, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1469.7151, "end": 1470.1951 }, { "text": "The house and senate are committing serious amount of time to tax reform.", "start": 1470.435, "end": 1475.0951 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1475.4751, "end": 1475.9751 }, { "text": "Funding for the government runs out in four days, so they will be working", "start": 1476.59, "end": 1479.63 } ], "start": 1469.7151, "end": 1479.63, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, that's fine.", "start": 1479.79, "end": 1480.85 } ], "start": 1479.79, "end": 1480.85, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1480.99, "end": 1481.23 }, { "text": "A continuing resolution and then reportedly an omnibus.", "start": 1481.23, "end": 1484.61 }, { "text": "So, this will fall into other battles, and we are expecting that FISA reauthorization be tacked on to what the ultimate omnibus spending bill is, whether it's", "start": 1485.23, "end": 1495.995 } ], "start": 1480.99, "end": 1495.995, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, okay.", "start": 1496.0751, "end": 1496.735 } ], "start": 1496.0751, "end": 1496.735, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1496.795, "end": 1496.915 }, { "text": "In the next couple of weeks or maybe there's a short term extension to get it into January where it could be partnered up with those sort of larger proposals.", "start": 1496.915, "end": 1504.895 } ], "start": 1496.795, "end": 1504.895, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1505.8301, "end": 1506.2301 }, { "text": "So what should, our listeners be doing right now if they're concerned about section seven zero two and they want what we want, you know, close that backdoor search?", "start": 1506.2301, "end": 1514.3301 }, { "text": "What should they be doing?", "start": 1514.7101, "end": 1515.8501 } ], "start": 1505.8301, "end": 1515.8501, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They should be calling their senator and member of congress and tell them that you want your information protected by a warrant.", "start": 1516.0701, "end": 1522.965 } ], "start": 1516.0701, "end": 1522.965, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's a great talking point.", "start": 1523.265, "end": 1524.385 }, { "text": "Thank you so much, Michelle.", "start": 1524.385, "end": 1525.505 }, { "text": "Sorry.", "start": 1525.505, "end": 1525.825 }, { "text": "You have a busier than, perhaps expected December, but you're doing great things.", "start": 1525.825, "end": 1529.745 }, { "text": "And thanks for joining Tech Talk.", "start": 1529.745, "end": 1531.345 } ], "start": 1523.265, "end": 1531.345, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks, Brian.", "start": 1531.345, "end": 1532.165 } ], "start": 1531.345, "end": 1532.165, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's it for this episode of Tech Talk.", "start": 1537.1001, "end": 1539.02 }, { "text": "For all the latest developments on net neutrality and government surveillance reform, visit CDT's website, cdt.org.", "start": 1539.02, "end": 1546.16 }, { "text": "And if you're feeling generous this holiday season and want to support an amazing nonprofit that advocates for your digital rights consider making a donation to CDT there's a bright blue link at the top of our website to make that easy for you I'm Brian Wazilowski happy holidays to all and thanks so much for listening", "start": 1546.2201, "end": 1565.0834 } ], "start": 1537.1001, "end": 1565.0834, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 2 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 10.48, "end": 12.74, "confidence": 0.87443084, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Welcome to Tech Talk. Bye.", "words": [ { "word": "welcome", "start": 10.48, "end": 10.98, "confidence": 0.927285, "punctuated_word": "Welcome", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "to", "start": 11.04, "end": 11.28, "confidence": 0.9980883, "punctuated_word": "to", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "tech", "start": 11.28, "end": 11.599999, "confidence": 0.65203136, "punctuated_word": "Tech", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "talk", "start": 11.599999, "end": 12.099999, "confidence": 0.8944336, "punctuated_word": "Talk.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 }, { "word": "bye", "start": 12.24, "end": 12.74, "confidence": 0.9003159, "punctuated_word": "Bye.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.19415402 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "562d1681-8577-4f34-a203-87e316184eac" }, { "start": 13.44, "end": 14.259999, "confidence": 0.6886466, "channel": 0, "transcript": "CT. Tea.", "words": [ { "word": "ct", "start": 13.44, "end": 13.759999, "confidence": 0.72548544, "punctuated_word": "CT.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.13614428 }, { "word": "tea", "start": 13.759999, "end": 14.259999, "confidence": 0.6518078, "punctuated_word": "Tea.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.13614428 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "91273c46-1cf6-479b-9171-6f76aaf5584a" }, { "start": 17.835, "end": 28.095, "confidence": 0.9508977, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Welcome to CDT's tech talk where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives. 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And it seems, I mean, this is foreign intelligence surveillance. So why why should the FBI even be able to get in there and look about look about information about Americans and do anything about domestic crimes? 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There are two things here. One, the government claims that once information is collected, they could use it however they see fit. Okay. So it would be wrong for Congress to put any limitation on it. That is quite an overstatement of the rules, though. 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