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Verifying users' ages online is more complex than asking for someone's ID before they enter a bar. Instead, verifying ages online will require the collection and even prolonged retention of user sensitive data by online services. In The UK, the new Online Safety Act has already required millions of users to prove their age with thousands of sites covering everything from adult content to everyday topics like current affairs and even knitting. Meanwhile, in The US, states like Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi are rolling out their own laws, and federal policymakers are considering bills that could expand these requirements even further. In this episode, you'll hear from Ziv Sanderson of NYU's Center for Social Media and Politics, CDC research fellow, McCall Lauria, and special host, CDC senior policy analyst, Aaliyah Bhatia. Together, they'll discuss what users actually think of the age verification policies, how they change their behavior online, when these policies are put in place, and what that means for our efforts to protect children and all users' safety online. So hi. I'm Alia Bhatia, and I'm excited to host this episode of Tech Talk. Today, we're talking about age verification and what it means for users. To understand how users interact with these systems and perceive them, I'm happy experts who, amongst other things, have conducted research on users and user perception of age verification. My colleague, Michal Luria, and our special guest, Ziv. Thanks so much, Michal and Ziv, for joining us. So before we dive in, I want us to do a quick note on terminology. You know, we're talking about age verification, which is part of this larger umbrella of age assurance methods. Age verification typically refers to methods that require hard identifiers to prove age, such as users showing ID to prove their age or maybe some approaches have also used collection of PII, personally identifiable information, or biometric data such as face scanning despite these approaches being more estimatory. Obviously, there are age estimation methods as well that have been proposed such as using machine learning or inference methods to estimate a user's age based on face scanning or voice analysis or analyzing user behavior such as search history. So, Ziv, I'll start off with you. Your recent research has been concerned with how users, specifically in Louisiana, have changed behavior about what they access online in response to a Louisiana age verification law. Can you walk us through the study, what you were interested in studying, and what types of age verification you were, really studying and evaluating here? Yeah. Sure. So thanks so much for having me. We were really interested in what sort of started in Louisiana and then became a whole host of of laws. I think the count now is 24 states have passed some version of of age verification laws. And and we were interested, in this because, you know, we we've long wanted to do this in The US. Starting in the nineties, a number of laws were passed that were deemed unconstitutional that attempted to do age verification for adult content online. And largely due to a different political environment and then also because of some technological advances, states came back to that over the last few years. And and it was gonna change the Internet for everyone. And I think one of the interesting things in tech policy is so often we we talk about or we think about tech policy around what we want to do. And there, at least in the social sciences, hasn't been sort of a really rigorous attempt to study the actual effect of tech policy on user behavior. And so when Louisiana passed the law, we we preregistered a a series of analysis that we were gonna run for Louisiana and all other states that attempted to actually, causally identify the impact of these laws on actual user behavior. Yeah. And and I think you're, this is a thread I really wanna pull on in our conversation as we, continue it in terms of, like, why it's really important to understand sort of the efficacy of interventions or perceptions of interventions. Michal, I wanna loop you in. You've also been looking at how users think about or perceive age verification systems. Most recently, you put out a brief, think you know, which covers how parents and teenagers think about different age verification approaches. Tell us a little bit more about this research and what age verification approaches you included in this study. Absolutely. And, glad to be here today. So this work that we did on age verification was part of a broader research study where we wanted to better understand how young people and their parents perceive a range of child safety policy proposals. We've seen that policy making and research many times occurs on these two different planes, and we wanted to bring that together. So we looked into all kinds of things that are being proposed in the in the policy space. And for age verification, we talk to people about several approaches, ID based verification, face scanning for age estimation, device based and app based verification, and parental verification. And so these different approaches, we talk to people because we used, a human centered design research approach, and it's not always well understood as, differently different from technical or usability evaluations. So unlike technical evaluations that focus on feasibility or usability testing that emphasizes, efficiency and ease of use, Design research allows people to explore a wide range of possibilities, for future interactions. And when we talk to them, we talk to them within a particular context, and we try to talk through what a particular scenario might look like. And so when we engage with teens and their parents in these structured conversations, we were trying to capture what would work, not on a technical level, but what aligns or misaligns with their lived experiences and their values. Yeah. McCall, I'm I'm curious. I mean, one of the really interesting, sort of dynamics in this space, is is how fragmented the regulatory environment is around what actual actual sort of age verification mechanisms are mandated by law. I'm curious when it came to actually engaging with teens and parents, was there you know, how did people feel about the different age verification mechanisms? Were there ones that were preferred to others? Yeah. I think, one common thread that we've seen across all the different, situations and scenarios that we presented was that people were highly concerned about their privacy and we're very sensitive to uploading any kind of verification or providing any type of verification that requires identifiable information, ID, even syncing with someone's phone. People perceive a phone as a highly private possession and that has a lot of information on it. And so anything like that requires a lot of transparency and really making sure the users walk through exactly what is being done. And so this is kind of a thing that kept coming back and we kept coming back to with the with people. There seems to be this gap also between how users perceive systems or, like, what they, you know, how they trust these systems and then also how they work? Like, why why does perception matter so much in terms of, like, the actual implementation of these systems? Well, it matters because at the end, people are going to be encountering these technologies, and they will be responding in various ways. It's not about what can or cannot be done technically. Of course, it's a it's an important component. But what we look at when we do human centered research is we try to understand how people are going to encounter these things. And that's why research, like the research that Ziv did, is so important because it actually looks into real reactions and real things that are happening, and that really can determine whether some kind of intervention succeeds succeeds or not. And so, Ziv, I'm curious for you to talk a little more also about how you think that implies back to policy. Is there any are there any tweaks that could make this better, or are you mostly looking at what others should or shouldn't do? Yeah. So I think this is a really important point. Right? Like, users' perceptions of the intervention will ultimately drive its efficacy when it comes to the point of the intervention, which is to change user behavior. And so what we were sort of interested in studying was when users sort of suddenly found themselves in this different regulatory environment where they were constantly needing to age verify, what did they do? I think one of the interesting parts here though is that it's not just users, it's also firms themselves. And so what we looked at in our study was that there were two there were two major adult content sort of platforms in The US, Pornhub and Xvideos. And at the time, what made it sort of easy to study was that Pornhub was the most popular adult content platform in the country. And Xvideos was second. Pornhub is based in North America and complied with all of the laws. In the case of Louisiana, they stayed active in the state because they felt comfortable with the age verification mechanism and felt that it was sufficiently sort of privacy preserving. In every other state, they actually shut down operations entirely. Xvideos is based in in The Czech Republic. They did not comply with any of the state laws. Right? And so they were not requiring age verification. And so it it offered this really sort of easy test case to see what users did when it came to sort of two behaviors of interest for us. One was substitution. So did did users substitute a compliant firm for a noncompliant or compliant website for a noncompliant website? And the second was sort of convention. Did we see evidence that users sought out VPNs in order to mask their location so they could get around age verification requirements? And and we saw really stark evidence of both. I think right. And so, you know, McCall, you were asking the question, you know, what what might work here? Well, for starters, we probably don't want to have a regulatory environment where a website ends up benefiting from noncompliance. Not only sort of economically is that probably not what we want to be doing, but also when it comes to to to users who are trying to navigate this sort of new environment. Pornhub and x videos, we're not we're not qualitatively the same websites. Right? Pornhub, while far from perfect, has a trust and safety function, whereas x videos doesn't. And there's been some really good reporting on just, I mean, how how horrible some of the the content is on x videos. And so we ended up shifting users into, onto a website that had qualitatively worse content. So I think for a start for starters, it's sort of interesting. We probably want better websites to stay active in The States and thinking about a regulatory environment that allows them to do so. I think in, in your study, Ziv, you also sort of cite Ron Deibert's work where you sort of, like, talk a little bit about the ingenuity of users and, like, the, like, desire users will always have to, like, circumvent or find the content that they're looking for or find things that they're looking for? Like, how comfortable, I guess, do you fee you know, how do you perceive the findings in this study or this pertaining to the Louisiana law to extrapolate into other instances? Like, are there is is the sort of user substitution and circumvention findings applicable in other age verification settings, do you think? Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a really good question. So I don't have good quantitative data on whether or not we would find exactly the same user behavior. I think what's interesting about adult content specifically is that it's directly substitutable. It's not like, let's say, a social media platform where you have really strong network effects because your friends are there. So, you know, it's not just simply that you could go from one social media platform to a to another if the, you know, former age verifies and the latter doesn't. For us, what we really where where we're sort of I have landed, I won't speak on behalf of my coauthors on the paper, is is I sort of come back to this, like, Casey Newton refrain that we can't solve sort of societal problems at the level of tech policy. And I think nowhere is that more, you know, true than than here. Right? And so if we sort of abstract out when it comes to age verification, the question that we're really asking is, how do we help children grow into well functioning adults capable of building healthy and meaningful intimate relationships? And and that doesn't mean that there aren't very sort of novel risks, that warrant sort of interventions given the sort of digital environment that that kids are now in. But the underlying issues are far broader than digital technologies. And so for, you know, for I think my frustration at times has been age verification has been this sort of single policy mechanism that we seem to be coming back to now all over the world in order to try to to sort of support kids. At the same time, we're doing things like defunding the Institute of Education Sciences. Right? So for me, like, they're all sort of the same part of the same policy package, which should be around, you know, investing in education, research, and social support for kids, and age assurance or age verification might be part of it. But but it's a really small piece of what needs to be a much broader set of interventions that sadly, I don't think we're investing as as much as we are investing in in age assurance. And then we see platforms like Blue Sky remove their services in places like Mississippi, so that's probably not the goal. Hopefully, not the goal. Right. Yeah. There is this, like, sort of question of, like, proportionality. Right? And, like, also, I think a little bit of, like, disaggregation that needs to happen in terms of, like, what problems we're trying to solve. Like, I think sometimes age verification is, like, you know, if we're trying to propose age verification approaches because some of the tech has advanced, that sort of neither here nor there if the problem we're trying to solve is more nuanced. And and, Mikala, I think in some of your work, including this sort of, study where you're trying to understand teens and parents' perception of proposed policy and or technical interventions, but in also your other work on, like, how do users, specifically child users, act when they encounter sort of negative messages on messaging platforms. One of the threads that you've pulled across all of this work is, like, parents and teens together, but also separately have really sophisticated tools to keep children safe online. Can you talk a little bit about, yeah, what are the other approaches that you found have helped? What are parents doing in this, like, new sort of complex landscape of the big bad web? Yeah. That was really interesting. And as a parent to two toddlers, I am very I I got a bunch of perspectives on what to do with teens, so I I feel prepared. But, I think one thing that has been really interesting for me is that parents really take a range of approaches and families adjust to their needs, which seems like an obvious statement. But in this context, we've seen that parents and kids work through what works for them in the context of technology use, in the context of platforms and social media. And so one thing that we've seen that was particularly promising was parental age verification so that parents have a a way of verifying their child's age. And one reason why that was particularly promising for people was that it allowed to keep the decision making within the household, and it allowed some flexibility that is needed. Because as we know and lots of research has said again and again that children are different, their maturity is different, how they approach platforms is different. And so having this option allowed parents, to a, get a better sense of where their where their kids are going online, what platforms they want to join. So it also gives them a way to kind of consent to what is happening. But the other part of it is that it gives them flexibility to decide together to lie about the the child's age, which I found really interesting because it's something that kept coming like, it wasn't only one or two parents who mentioned it. This was something that happens that parents and teens decide together. Okay. You're not at the right age yet according to, you know, social media's, recommendation, but you are mature enough, and we think that you're ready to go on to this platform. And the and vice versa. We've also seen cases in which a platform, Snapchat, let's say, is from a particular age and the child is older than that, but the parents and teens decide together that maybe it's too soon for them to go on that platform. And so this approach allows for more flexibility for parents and teens to have a conversation and to decide together. I will say this wouldn't work for all households. There are some kids who don't have that kind of support and communication system with their parents. And so that leads me to another important finding that we are highlighting in this work is that we need a variety of approaches and a variety of options because, of course, there was no no consensus on all the different age verification methods that we talked about. And different people feel differently and feel a range of comfort around different age verification methods. And so giving users a little menu of possibilities would really help, especially as this is kind of becoming a standard to get a sense of what they can do or or choose something that they feel personally comfortable with. Yeah. And it it's it's interesting how far we are away from anything that probably, like, the three of us on this call or on this podcast would consider to be, like like, a normatively, like, good policy endpoint here when it comes to actually thinking about age verification mechanisms that are rigorous privacy preserving and and sort of empowering to users. I mean, in doing in doing our work, we we focused first on Louisiana, but ultimately, we we studied the effect on 15 states. We're updating our analysis now, after after the Supreme Court decision. And so I think it'll be up to to 20 or 21 states that'll be in the final paper. But it's it's a total mess across these states when it comes at the actual mechanisms for age verification. Right? Everything from a digital ID if a state has it to a physical ID upload to transaction data to a face scan. In Tennessee, you, certain adult content websites, they're required to to reverify every hour. Right? I mean, it's just it's so far away from what we would consider to be to be sort of an age verification regime where users actually would want to sort of engage in that verification process. It it's it's actually in in the case of some states, the age verification mechanisms were so sloppily written. It almost felt like like the intended purpose was to essentially push users out into, like, the less regulated Internet, because it just doesn't make sense why, why the policy would end up there. And I think I've been broadly frustrated with, with the fact that, you know, while I sort of understand the general intuition of wanting to sort of invest in, in, in age verification, why there hasn't been more engagement with what a sort of, you know, best in class approach might might look like. And it seems like it seems like state lawmakers, you know, have largely, you know, they passed the bill and they said our our work here is done. Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of work that can be also done at, like, the standards level here of, like, trying to create a floor of, like, what privacy preserving or what anonymity, anonymity preserving age verification could look like. I know that the Louisiana law is actually, like, singular in mentioning even anonymity in a way that, like, the other state laws aren't. But, you know, our colleague Nick Doty has been thinking a lot about, like, what are existing, privacy standards that can be used to create alternative approaches to enable, parents, for example, to say, okay. Sites that are already labeled, adult content, like, how can labeling and signaling methods try to lead to more of a robust browser level set of controls where parents can say, okay. No adult content can be accessed on, like, safe mode here. So there are other approaches, but I think instead, in addition to what you're saying of, like, the incentives that these bills are creating, you know, a lot of these bills use, like, language like, use commercially viable methods to age verify, which to me seems like a silver platter delivery to the sort of cottage industry of age verification providers regardless of, like, actually what, you know, their data collection retention policies are, exactly what data you know, how accurate their systems are, etcetera. And in what we what we saw in The UK, like, a lot of these age verification mandates are just incredibly burdensome and, like, cost prohibitive and are, you know, to Michal's point, like blue sky leaving Mississippi or footy club saying, actually, we're not going to have new accounts register anymore because we can't verify those accounts. So you can, like, consume the content a little bit, but we have to, like, limit access to a lot of it as well because, you know, we know football conversations also, like, go awry, I guess. So I I think there's a lot of factors that sort of, like, poke holes at the claim that age verification is, like, a perfect child safety size Band Aid error. I guess, like, you know, I I really I have a couple of interesting I'm really interested in your, like, the larger argument of why empirical research here is needed. But before that, I think one final question about the findings, like, I think what you know, if we wanted to package some of these findings to policymakers, like, what would we be saying? Like, what does age verification mean for users and and what they will and will not, experience? When it comes to engaging policy makers on these findings, I we really want to emphasize the potential for substitution or convention. And that, ultimately, these interventions are attempting to shift behavior and that that's a sort of empirically testable question. And we hope that they're just really quick policy feedback loops. I actually am not against policy experimentation sort of more broadly in tech policy. I think where I get frustrated is policy experimentation without a feedback loop once we start sort of collecting really rigorous data is not experimentation. It's just sort of, you know, sloppy policy. And I think that's where largely where we've ended up is that these policies passed. You know, if we have our paper, there are a couple others that are directionally sort of aligned with with their findings. We have some, some, you know, sort of basic descriptive numbers coming out of, you know, the first month of of The UK suggesting very similar things are happening there. And so I just think that if policymakers want to want to sort of actually make, you know, headway on on the actual behavior that they're trying to shift, they really, really need to think about circumvention and substitution, which is why McCall's work is so important here. Right? The way that you start to think about what a different age verification sort of regime might look like is you actually go and you engage the communities who are gonna be impacted by this. And so I think, you know, sort of pairing our work together is a really nice way of thinking about what sort of an evidence based approach to this policy space might look like. I agree with that. And, if I can add one more complaint, I think there and this is also a classic researcher move, so apologies for that. But we need more human centered research, guys. I mean, if there's just not enough research here and I'm so glad that we're having this conversation and that we do have actors, and organizations who are having this research done, but it's not enough. And I think a lot of the conversation has just been about the technical feasibility of approaches, and that's not the whole conversation. Like I said, it's an important part of it, but it can't be tested technically alone. It has to be tested and piloted and shaped with the people who are going to be impacted and who will be using these platforms. I think what's interesting here is, right, like, we we passed, especially in The US, a ton of I mean, you're right now about half the states, have age verification laws. And they're all for platforms. Right? It sort of it assumes right. I mean, at least in in almost all of the states, it has this, you know, they they determine what's in a a covered website based off of a threshold in most states. It's it's a third of the content on the platform, is is classified as as adult, which requires you to have sort of a numerator and a denominator. Right? It has this sort of platform intuition to it. But, now kids are using chatbots, and there's this whole sort of cottage industry of of erotic chatbots that have popped up. Those totally sidestep the way that we have thought about at least in The US sort of threshold. Right? The content doesn't exist, sort of ex ante. And so, you know, we we we passed a whole host of laws, essentially at the moment that the world changed. Right? I mean, they sort of started coming online about two, two and a half years ago, and we're gonna need to totally rethink them for for the age of chatbots. And to be honest, I'm much more nervous about chatbots because it sort of pairs the, like, erotic and parasocial in ways that I think are potentially I mean, I don't wanna get out over my skis. I'm not a psychologist, but, you know, there it feels it feels straightforward that it's just sort of, like, obviously scary and developmentally, potentially inappropriate for for for kids. And right now, those aren't covered by any of the laws. And so I think it's a really good opportunity to engage with with work like McCall and your other colleagues at CDT are doing around how do we get this right and and the way that you start is you you I think, you just gave us, part two of the converse tech talk conversation with you and Michal. So, but it's it's certainly something we're thinking a lot about And this sort of platform, like, very narrow platform view of kids' safety legislation, I think, is 100% accurate but also scary because, like, now we're gonna see this, like, whole new flurry of bills that are, like, prematurely trying to be, like, let's, you know, stop everything, halt the horses. I'm just gonna take moderator privilege also to say, you know, beyond, to to answer that question of, like, I think what policymakers need to know, which is, you know, not only the sort of socio technical context in which these age verification laws are being implemented, the the importance of sort of doing this human centered research and understanding user perception as the proxy for effectiveness of these laws. But, also, to poke holes a little bit at the claims that age verification systems are technically feasible all the time. You know, a lot of our research, in the policy front at CDT has been focused on the fact that these so called, you know, 100% accurate, verification and estimatory methods work across all users. You know, a lot of the research we found is that, users with disabilities, users of color are routinely misclassified by these more machine learning or inference systems. Verification systems also, fall short, for a lot of users who don't have ID, don't have valid ID. And I always like to sort of quote Kate Ruan, the director of our free expression team at CDT, who says, you know, even a single small you know, single digit error rate when it accounts for the scale at which people are using these services is gonna be a big number. Right? Like, a fraction of a a large number is gonna be a large number. So I think what we're talking about is, like, thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who are gonna be misclassified and are going to be stuck in this dead end of accessing the web, whether to provide even more sensitive information to these already data rich tech companies or for go service or, as the viewer studies have shown, like, access sort of, like, more murky territory on the Internet. So all to say that I think I think this conversation has been fascinating, has sort of raised a lot of questions that I think I hope policymakers, industry experts, researchers are sort of penning down and and pursuing in their own sort of Internet research holes. And we could go on for so much longer, but thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you for listening to Tech Talks presented by the Center for Democracy and Technology. I've been your host, Jamal Magdi. Tech Talks is edited by Jacob Kaufman and produced by Drew Courtney. Check out more of CDT's work by visiting us online at cdt.org and on various social media at syndemtech. That's syndemtech. 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], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": { "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Welcome to CDT's Tech Talks, where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean for our daily lives. I'm Jamal Magby, and it's time to talk tech.\n\nSpeaker 1: Welcome to Tech Talk by\n\nSpeaker 0: CT. Team. Age verification is commonly proposed as a means to protect children online. However, its implementation risks fundamentally changing how all users, adults and children, access the Internet. Verifying users' ages online is more complex than asking for someone's ID before they enter a bar.\n\nInstead, verifying ages online will require the collection and even prolonged retention of user sensitive data by online services. In The UK, the new Online Safety Act has already required millions of users to prove their age with thousands of sites covering everything from adult content to everyday topics like current affairs and even knitting. Meanwhile, in The US, states like Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi are rolling out their own laws, and federal policymakers are considering bills that could expand these requirements even further. In this episode, you'll hear from Ziv Sanderson of NYU's Center for Social Media and Politics, CDC research fellow, McCall Lauria, and special host, CDC senior policy analyst, Aaliyah Bhatia. Together, they'll discuss what users actually think of the age verification policies, how they change their behavior online, when these policies are put in place, and what that means for our efforts to protect children and all users' safety online.\n\nSpeaker 1: So hi. I'm Alia Bhatia, and I'm excited to host this episode of Tech Talk. Today, we're talking about age verification and what it means for users. To understand how users interact with these systems and perceive them, I'm happy experts who, amongst other things, have conducted research on users and user perception of age verification. My colleague, Michal Luria, and our special guest, Ziv.\n\nThanks so much, Michal and Ziv, for joining us. So before we dive in, I want us to do a quick note on terminology. You know, we're talking about age verification, which is part of this larger umbrella of age assurance methods. Age verification typically refers to methods that require hard identifiers to prove age, such as users showing ID to prove their age or maybe some approaches have also used collection of PII, personally identifiable information, or biometric data such as face scanning despite these approaches being more estimatory. Obviously, there are age estimation methods as well that have been proposed such as using machine learning or inference methods to estimate a user's age based on face scanning or voice analysis or analyzing user behavior such as search history.\n\nSo, Ziv, I'll start off with you. Your recent research has been concerned with how users, specifically in Louisiana, have changed behavior about what they access online in response to a Louisiana age verification law. Can you walk us through the study, what you were interested in studying, and what types of age verification you were, really studying and evaluating here?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Sure. So thanks so much for having me. We were really interested in what sort of started in Louisiana and then became a whole host of of laws. I think the count now is 24 states have passed some version of of age verification laws.\n\nAnd and we were interested, in this because, you know, we we've long wanted to do this in The US. Starting in the nineties, a number of laws were passed that were deemed unconstitutional that attempted to do age verification for adult content online. And largely due to a different political environment and then also because of some technological advances, states came back to that over the last few years. And and it was gonna change the Internet for everyone. And I think one of the interesting things in tech policy is so often we we talk about or we think about tech policy around what we want to do.\n\nAnd there, at least in the social sciences, hasn't been sort of a really rigorous attempt to study the actual effect of tech policy on user behavior. And so when Louisiana passed the law, we we preregistered a a series of analysis that we were gonna run for Louisiana and all other states that attempted to actually, causally identify the impact of these laws on actual user behavior.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And and I think you're, this is a thread I really wanna pull on in our conversation as we, continue it in terms of, like, why it's really important to understand sort of the efficacy of interventions or perceptions of interventions. Michal, I wanna loop you in. You've also been looking at how users think about or perceive age verification systems. Most recently, you put out a brief, think you know, which covers how parents and teenagers think about different age verification approaches.\n\nTell us a little bit more about this research and what age verification approaches you included in this study.\n\nSpeaker 3: Absolutely. And, glad to be here today. So this work that we did on age verification was part of a broader research study where we wanted to better understand how young people and their parents perceive a range of child safety policy proposals. We've seen that policy making and research many times occurs on these two different planes, and we wanted to bring that together. So we looked into all kinds of things that are being proposed in the in the policy space.\n\nAnd for age verification, we talk to people about several approaches, ID based verification, face scanning for age estimation, device based and app based verification, and parental verification. And so these different approaches, we talk to people because we used, a human centered design research approach, and it's not always well understood as, differently different from technical or usability evaluations. So unlike technical evaluations that focus on feasibility or usability testing that emphasizes, efficiency and ease of use, Design research allows people to explore a wide range of possibilities, for future interactions. And when we talk to them, we talk to them within a particular context, and we try to talk through what a particular scenario might look like. And so when we engage with teens and their parents in these structured conversations, we were trying to capture what would work, not on a technical level, but what aligns or misaligns with their lived experiences and their values.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. McCall, I'm I'm curious. I mean, one of the really interesting, sort of dynamics in this space, is is how fragmented the regulatory environment is around what actual actual sort of age verification mechanisms are mandated by law. I'm curious when it came to actually engaging with teens and parents, was there you know, how did people feel about the different age verification mechanisms? Were there ones that were preferred to others?\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. I think, one common thread that we've seen across all the different, situations and scenarios that we presented was that people were highly concerned about their privacy and we're very sensitive to uploading any kind of verification or providing any type of verification that requires identifiable information, ID, even syncing with someone's phone. People perceive a phone as a highly private possession and that has a lot of information on it. And so anything like that requires a lot of transparency and really making sure the users walk through exactly what is being done. And so this is kind of a thing that kept coming back and we kept coming back to with the with people.\n\nSpeaker 1: There seems to be this gap also between how users perceive systems or, like, what they, you know, how they trust these systems and then also how they work? Like, why why does perception matter so much in terms of, like, the actual implementation of these systems?\n\nSpeaker 3: Well, it matters because at the end, people are going to be encountering these technologies, and they will be responding in various ways. It's not about what can or cannot be done technically. Of course, it's a it's an important component. But what we look at when we do human centered research is we try to understand how people are going to encounter these things. And that's why research, like the research that Ziv did, is so important because it actually looks into real reactions and real things that are happening, and that really can determine whether some kind of intervention succeeds succeeds or not.\n\nAnd so, Ziv, I'm curious for you to talk a little more also about how you think that implies back to policy. Is there any are there any tweaks that could make this better, or are you mostly looking at what others should or shouldn't do?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. So I think this is a really important point. Right? Like, users' perceptions of the intervention will ultimately drive its efficacy when it comes to the point of the intervention, which is to change user behavior. And so what we were sort of interested in studying was when users sort of suddenly found themselves in this different regulatory environment where they were constantly needing to age verify, what did they do?\n\nI think one of the interesting parts here though is that it's not just users, it's also firms themselves. And so what we looked at in our study was that there were two there were two major adult content sort of platforms in The US, Pornhub and Xvideos. And at the time, what made it sort of easy to study was that Pornhub was the most popular adult content platform in the country. And Xvideos was second. Pornhub is based in North America and complied with all of the laws.\n\nIn the case of Louisiana, they stayed active in the state because they felt comfortable with the age verification mechanism and felt that it was sufficiently sort of privacy preserving. In every other state, they actually shut down operations entirely. Xvideos is based in in The Czech Republic. They did not comply with any of the state laws. Right?\n\nAnd so they were not requiring age verification. And so it it offered this really sort of easy test case to see what users did when it came to sort of two behaviors of interest for us. One was substitution. So did did users substitute a compliant firm for a noncompliant or compliant website for a noncompliant website? And the second was sort of convention.\n\nDid we see evidence that users sought out VPNs in order to mask their location so they could get around age verification requirements? And and we saw really stark evidence of both. I think right. And so, you know, McCall, you were asking the question, you know, what what might work here? Well, for starters, we probably don't want to have a regulatory environment where a website ends up benefiting from noncompliance.\n\nNot only sort of economically is that probably not what we want to be doing, but also when it comes to to to users who are trying to navigate this sort of new environment. Pornhub and x videos, we're not we're not qualitatively the same websites. Right? Pornhub, while far from perfect, has a trust and safety function, whereas x videos doesn't. And there's been some really good reporting on just, I mean, how how horrible some of the the content is on x videos.\n\nAnd so we ended up shifting users into, onto a website that had qualitatively worse content. So I think for a start for starters, it's sort of interesting. We probably want better websites to stay active in The States and thinking about a regulatory environment that allows them to do so.\n\nSpeaker 1: I think in, in your study, Ziv, you also sort of cite Ron Deibert's work where you sort of, like, talk a little bit about the ingenuity of users and, like, the, like, desire users will always have to, like, circumvent or find the content that they're looking for or find things that they're looking for? Like, how comfortable, I guess, do you fee you know, how do you perceive the findings in this study or this pertaining to the Louisiana law to extrapolate into other instances? Like, are there is is the sort of user substitution and circumvention findings applicable in other age verification settings, do you think?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a really good question. So I don't have good quantitative data on whether or not we would find exactly the same user behavior. I think what's interesting about adult content specifically is that it's directly substitutable. It's not like, let's say, a social media platform where you have really strong network effects because your friends are there.\n\nSo, you know, it's not just simply that you could go from one social media platform to a to another if the, you know, former age verifies and the latter doesn't. For us, what we really where where we're sort of I have landed, I won't speak on behalf of my coauthors on the paper, is is I sort of come back to this, like, Casey Newton refrain that we can't solve sort of societal problems at the level of tech policy. And I think nowhere is that more, you know, true than than here. Right? And so if we sort of abstract out when it comes to age verification, the question that we're really asking is, how do we help children grow into well functioning adults capable of building healthy and meaningful intimate relationships?\n\nAnd and that doesn't mean that there aren't very sort of novel risks, that warrant sort of interventions given the sort of digital environment that that kids are now in. But the underlying issues are far broader than digital technologies. And so for, you know, for I think my frustration at times has been age verification has been this sort of single policy mechanism that we seem to be coming back to now all over the world in order to try to to sort of support kids. At the same time, we're doing things like defunding the Institute of Education Sciences. Right?\n\nSo for me, like, they're all sort of the same part of the same policy package, which should be around, you know, investing in education, research, and social support for kids, and age assurance or age verification might be part of it. But but it's a really small piece of what needs to be a much broader set of interventions that sadly, I don't think we're investing as as much as we are investing in in age assurance.\n\nSpeaker 3: And then we see platforms like Blue Sky remove their services in places like Mississippi, so that's probably not the goal.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hopefully, not the goal.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. Yeah. There is this, like, sort of question of, like, proportionality. Right? And, like, also, I think a little bit of, like, disaggregation that needs to happen in terms of, like, what problems we're trying to solve.\n\nLike, I think sometimes age verification is, like, you know, if we're trying to propose age verification approaches because some of the tech has advanced, that sort of neither here nor there if the problem we're trying to solve is more nuanced. And and, Mikala, I think in some of your work, including this sort of, study where you're trying to understand teens and parents' perception of proposed policy and or technical interventions, but in also your other work on, like, how do users, specifically child users, act when they encounter sort of negative messages on messaging platforms. One of the threads that you've pulled across all of this work is, like, parents and teens together, but also separately have really sophisticated tools to keep children safe online. Can you talk a little bit about, yeah, what are the other approaches that you found have helped? What are parents doing in this, like, new sort of complex landscape of the big bad web?\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. That was really interesting. And as a parent to two toddlers, I am very I I got a bunch of perspectives on what to do with teens, so I I feel prepared. But, I think one thing that has been really interesting for me is that parents really take a range of approaches and families adjust to their needs, which seems like an obvious statement. But in this context, we've seen that parents and kids work through what works for them in the context of technology use, in the context of platforms and social media.\n\nAnd so one thing that we've seen that was particularly promising was parental age verification so that parents have a a way of verifying their child's age. And one reason why that was particularly promising for people was that it allowed to keep the decision making within the household, and it allowed some flexibility that is needed. Because as we know and lots of research has said again and again that children are different, their maturity is different, how they approach platforms is different. And so having this option allowed parents, to a, get a better sense of where their where their kids are going online, what platforms they want to join. So it also gives them a way to kind of consent to what is happening.\n\nBut the other part of it is that it gives them flexibility to decide together to lie about the the child's age, which I found really interesting because it's something that kept coming like, it wasn't only one or two parents who mentioned it. This was something that happens that parents and teens decide together. Okay. You're not at the right age yet according to, you know, social media's, recommendation, but you are mature enough, and we think that you're ready to go on to this platform. And the and vice versa.\n\nWe've also seen cases in which a platform, Snapchat, let's say, is from a particular age and the child is older than that, but the parents and teens decide together that maybe it's too soon for them to go on that platform. And so this approach allows for more flexibility for parents and teens to have a conversation and to decide together. I will say this wouldn't work for all households. There are some kids who don't have that kind of support and communication system with their parents. And so that leads me to another important finding that we are highlighting in this work is that we need a variety of approaches and a variety of options because, of course, there was no no consensus on all the different age verification methods that we talked about.\n\nAnd different people feel differently and feel a range of comfort around different age verification methods. And so giving users a little menu of possibilities would really help, especially as this is kind of becoming a standard to get a sense of what they can do or or choose something that they feel personally comfortable with.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. And it it's it's interesting how far we are away from anything that probably, like, the three of us on this call or on this podcast would consider to be, like like, a normatively, like, good policy endpoint here when it comes to actually thinking about age verification mechanisms that are rigorous privacy preserving and and sort of empowering to users. I mean, in doing in doing our work, we we focused first on Louisiana, but ultimately, we we studied the effect on 15 states. We're updating our analysis now, after after the Supreme Court decision. And so I think it'll be up to to 20 or 21 states that'll be in the final paper.\n\nBut it's it's a total mess across these states when it comes at the actual mechanisms for age verification. Right? Everything from a digital ID if a state has it to a physical ID upload to transaction data to a face scan. In Tennessee, you, certain adult content websites, they're required to to reverify every hour. Right?\n\nI mean, it's just it's so far away from what we would consider to be to be sort of an age verification regime where users actually would want to sort of engage in that verification process. It it's it's actually in in the case of some states, the age verification mechanisms were so sloppily written. It almost felt like like the intended purpose was to essentially push users out into, like, the less regulated Internet, because it just doesn't make sense why, why the policy would end up there. And I think I've been broadly frustrated with, with the fact that, you know, while I sort of understand the general intuition of wanting to sort of invest in, in, in age verification, why there hasn't been more engagement with what a sort of, you know, best in class approach might might look like. And it seems like it seems like state lawmakers, you know, have largely, you know, they passed the bill and they said our our work here is done.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of work that can be also done at, like, the standards level here of, like, trying to create a floor of, like, what privacy preserving or what anonymity, anonymity preserving age verification could look like. I know that the Louisiana law is actually, like, singular in mentioning even anonymity in a way that, like, the other state laws aren't. But, you know, our colleague Nick Doty has been thinking a lot about, like, what are existing, privacy standards that can be used to create alternative approaches to enable, parents, for example, to say, okay. Sites that are already labeled, adult content, like, how can labeling and signaling methods try to lead to more of a robust browser level set of controls where parents can say, okay.\n\nNo adult content can be accessed on, like, safe mode here. So there are other approaches, but I think instead, in addition to what you're saying of, like, the incentives that these bills are creating, you know, a lot of these bills use, like, language like, use commercially viable methods to age verify, which to me seems like a silver platter delivery to the sort of cottage industry of age verification providers regardless of, like, actually what, you know, their data collection retention policies are, exactly what data you know, how accurate their systems are, etcetera. And in what we what we saw in The UK, like, a lot of these age verification mandates are just incredibly burdensome and, like, cost prohibitive and are, you know, to Michal's point, like blue sky leaving Mississippi or footy club saying, actually, we're not going to have new accounts register anymore because we can't verify those accounts. So you can, like, consume the content a little bit, but we have to, like, limit access to a lot of it as well because, you know, we know football conversations also, like, go awry, I guess. So I I think there's a lot of factors that sort of, like, poke holes at the claim that age verification is, like, a perfect child safety size Band Aid error.\n\nI guess, like, you know, I I really I have a couple of interesting I'm really interested in your, like, the larger argument of why empirical research here is needed. But before that, I think one final question about the findings, like, I think what you know, if we wanted to package some of these findings to policymakers, like, what would we be saying? Like, what does age verification mean for users and and what they will and will not, experience?\n\nSpeaker 2: When it comes to engaging policy makers on these findings, I we really want to emphasize the potential for substitution or convention. And that, ultimately, these interventions are attempting to shift behavior and that that's a sort of empirically testable question. And we hope that they're just really quick policy feedback loops. I actually am not against policy experimentation sort of more broadly in tech policy. I think where I get frustrated is policy experimentation without a feedback loop once we start sort of collecting really rigorous data is not experimentation.\n\nIt's just sort of, you know, sloppy policy. And I think that's where largely where we've ended up is that these policies passed. You know, if we have our paper, there are a couple others that are directionally sort of aligned with with their findings. We have some, some, you know, sort of basic descriptive numbers coming out of, you know, the first month of of The UK suggesting very similar things are happening there. And so I just think that if policymakers want to want to sort of actually make, you know, headway on on the actual behavior that they're trying to shift, they really, really need to think about circumvention and substitution, which is why McCall's work is so important here.\n\nRight? The way that you start to think about what a different age verification sort of regime might look like is you actually go and you engage the communities who are gonna be impacted by this. And so I think, you know, sort of pairing our work together is a really nice way of thinking about what sort of an evidence based approach to this policy space might look like.\n\nSpeaker 3: I agree with that. And, if I can add one more complaint, I think there and this is also a classic researcher move, so apologies for that. But we need more human centered research, guys. I mean, if there's just not enough research here and I'm so glad that we're having this conversation and that we do have actors, and organizations who are having this research done, but it's not enough. And I think a lot of the conversation has just been about the technical feasibility of approaches, and that's not the whole conversation.\n\nLike I said, it's an important part of it, but it can't be tested technically alone. It has to be tested and piloted and shaped with the people who are going to be impacted and who will be using these platforms.\n\nSpeaker 2: I think what's interesting here is, right, like, we we passed, especially in The US, a ton of I mean, you're right now about half the states, have age verification laws. And they're all for platforms. Right? It sort of it assumes right. I mean, at least in in almost all of the states, it has this, you know, they they determine what's in a a covered website based off of a threshold in most states.\n\nIt's it's a third of the content on the platform, is is classified as as adult, which requires you to have sort of a numerator and a denominator. Right? It has this sort of platform intuition to it. But, now kids are using chatbots, and there's this whole sort of cottage industry of of erotic chatbots that have popped up. Those totally sidestep the way that we have thought about at least in The US sort of threshold.\n\nRight? The content doesn't exist, sort of ex ante. And so, you know, we we we passed a whole host of laws, essentially at the moment that the world changed. Right? I mean, they sort of started coming online about two, two and a half years ago, and we're gonna need to totally rethink them for for the age of chatbots.\n\nAnd to be honest, I'm much more nervous about chatbots because it sort of pairs the, like, erotic and parasocial in ways that I think are potentially I mean, I don't wanna get out over my skis. I'm not a psychologist, but, you know, there it feels it feels straightforward that it's just sort of, like, obviously scary and developmentally, potentially inappropriate for for for kids. And right now, those aren't covered by any of the laws. And so I think it's a really good opportunity to engage with with work like McCall and your other colleagues at CDT are doing around how do we get this right and and the way that you start is you you I\n\nSpeaker 1: think, you just gave us, part two of the converse tech talk conversation with you and Michal. So, but it's it's certainly something we're thinking a lot about And this sort of platform, like, very narrow platform view of kids' safety legislation, I think, is 100% accurate but also scary because, like, now we're gonna see this, like, whole new flurry of bills that are, like, prematurely trying to be, like, let's, you know, stop everything, halt the horses. I'm just gonna take moderator privilege also to say, you know, beyond, to to answer that question of, like, I think what policymakers need to know, which is, you know, not only the sort of socio technical context in which these age verification laws are being implemented, the the importance of sort of doing this human centered research and understanding user perception as the proxy for effectiveness of these laws. But, also, to poke holes a little bit at the claims that age verification systems are technically feasible all the time. You know, a lot of our research, in the policy front at CDT has been focused on the fact that these so called, you know, 100% accurate, verification and estimatory methods work across all users.\n\nYou know, a lot of the research we found is that, users with disabilities, users of color are routinely misclassified by these more machine learning or inference systems. Verification systems also, fall short, for a lot of users who don't have ID, don't have valid ID. And I always like to sort of quote Kate Ruan, the director of our free expression team at CDT, who says, you know, even a single small you know, single digit error rate when it accounts for the scale at which people are using these services is gonna be a big number. Right? Like, a fraction of a a large number is gonna be a large number.\n\nSo I think what we're talking about is, like, thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who are gonna be misclassified and are going to be stuck in this dead end of accessing the web, whether to provide even more sensitive information to these already data rich tech companies or for go service or, as the viewer studies have shown, like, access sort of, like, more murky territory on the Internet. So all to say that I think I think this conversation has been fascinating, has sort of raised a lot of questions that I think I hope policymakers, industry experts, researchers are sort of penning down and and pursuing in their own sort of Internet research holes. And we could go on for so much longer, but thank you so much for your time.\n\nSpeaker 2: Thank you.\n\nSpeaker 3: Thanks for\n\nSpeaker 2: having us.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank you for listening to Tech Talks presented by the Center for Democracy and Technology. I've been your host, Jamal Magdi. Tech Talks is edited by Jacob Kaufman and produced by Drew Courtney. Check out more of CDT's work by visiting us online at cdt.org and on various social media at syndemtech. That's syndemtech.\n\nThanks for talking tech.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to CDT's Tech Talks, where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean for our daily lives.", "start": 0.08, "end": 7.06 }, { "text": "I'm Jamal Magby, and it's time to talk tech.", "start": 7.12, "end": 9.86 } ], "start": 0.08, "end": 9.86, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to Tech Talk by", "start": 19.565, "end": 21.725 } ], "start": 19.565, "end": 21.725, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "CT.", "start": 22.125, "end": 22.525 }, { "text": "Team.", "start": 22.925, "end": 23.425 }, { "text": "Age verification is commonly proposed as a means to protect children online.", "start": 24.125, "end": 28.189999 }, { "text": "However, its implementation risks fundamentally changing how all users, adults and children, access the Internet.", "start": 28.73, "end": 35.55 }, { "text": "Verifying users' ages online is more complex than asking for someone's ID before they enter a bar.", "start": 36.17, "end": 42.455 } ], "start": 22.125, "end": 42.455, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Instead, verifying ages online will require the collection and even prolonged retention of user sensitive data by online services.", "start": 43.075, "end": 51.495003 }, { "text": "In The UK, the new Online Safety Act has already required millions of users to prove their age with thousands of sites covering everything from adult content to everyday topics like current affairs and even knitting.", "start": 52.73, "end": 66.91 }, { "text": "Meanwhile, in The US, states like Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi are rolling out their own laws, and federal policymakers are considering bills that could expand these requirements even further.", "start": 67.835, "end": 80.255 }, { "text": "In this episode, you'll hear from Ziv Sanderson of NYU's Center for Social Media and Politics, CDC research fellow, McCall Lauria, and special host, CDC senior policy analyst, Aaliyah Bhatia.", "start": 81.34, "end": 95.2 }, { "text": "Together, they'll discuss what users actually think of the age verification policies, how they change their behavior online, when these policies are put in place, and what that means for our efforts to protect children and all users' safety online.", "start": 95.755005, "end": 109.215004 } ], "start": 43.075, "end": 109.215004, "num_words": 154.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So hi.", "start": 110.53001, "end": 111.33 }, { "text": "I'm Alia Bhatia, and I'm excited to host this episode of Tech Talk.", "start": 111.33, "end": 115.19 }, { "text": "Today, we're talking about age verification and what it means for users.", "start": 115.490005, "end": 119.43 }, { "text": "To understand how users interact with these systems and perceive them, I'm happy experts who, amongst other things, have conducted research on users and user perception of age verification.", "start": 120.05, "end": 132.885 }, { "text": "My colleague, Michal Luria, and our special guest, Ziv.", "start": 133.665, "end": 137.185 } ], "start": 110.53001, "end": 137.185, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks so much, Michal and Ziv, for joining us.", "start": 137.185, "end": 140.06 }, { "text": "So before we dive in, I want us to do a quick note on terminology.", "start": 140.28, "end": 143.9 }, { "text": "You know, we're talking about age verification, which is part of this larger umbrella of age assurance methods.", "start": 144.36, "end": 149.73999 }, { "text": "Age verification typically refers to methods that require hard identifiers to prove age, such as users showing ID to prove their age or maybe some approaches have also used collection of PII, personally identifiable information, or biometric data such as face scanning despite these approaches being more estimatory.", "start": 149.8, "end": 168.92 }, { "text": "Obviously, there are age estimation methods as well that have been proposed such as using machine learning or inference methods to estimate a user's age based on face scanning or voice analysis or analyzing user behavior such as search history.", "start": 169.22, "end": 182.875 } ], "start": 137.185, "end": 182.875, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, Ziv, I'll start off with you.", "start": 182.875, "end": 185.055 }, { "text": "Your recent research has been concerned with how users, specifically in Louisiana, have changed behavior about what they access online in response to a Louisiana age verification law.", "start": 185.11499, "end": 195.84 }, { "text": "Can you walk us through the study, what you were interested in studying, and what types of age verification you were, really studying and evaluating here?", "start": 195.92, "end": 202.98 } ], "start": 182.875, "end": 202.98, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 203.12, "end": 203.36 }, { "text": "Sure.", "start": 203.36, "end": 203.51999 }, { "text": "So thanks so much for having me.", "start": 203.51999, "end": 204.72 }, { "text": "We were really interested in what sort of started in Louisiana and then became a whole host of of laws.", "start": 204.72, "end": 210.985 }, { "text": "I think the count now is 24 states have passed some version of of age verification laws.", "start": 211.125, "end": 217.205 } ], "start": 203.12, "end": 217.205, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and we were interested, in this because, you know, we we've long wanted to do this in The US.", "start": 217.205, "end": 222.485 }, { "text": "Starting in the nineties, a number of laws were passed that were deemed unconstitutional that attempted to do age verification for adult content online.", "start": 222.88501, "end": 230.79999 }, { "text": "And largely due to a different political environment and then also because of some technological advances, states came back to that over the last few years.", "start": 231.18, "end": 239.655 }, { "text": "And and it was gonna change the Internet for everyone.", "start": 239.815, "end": 242.155 }, { "text": "And I think one of the interesting things in tech policy is so often we we talk about or we think about tech policy around what we want to do.", "start": 242.375, "end": 250.075 } ], "start": 217.205, "end": 250.075, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And there, at least in the social sciences, hasn't been sort of a really rigorous attempt to study the actual effect of tech policy on user behavior.", "start": 250.215, "end": 258.94 }, { "text": "And so when Louisiana passed the law, we we preregistered a a series of analysis that we were gonna run for Louisiana and all other states that attempted to actually, causally identify the impact of these laws on actual user behavior.", "start": 259.4, "end": 273.42502 } ], "start": 250.215, "end": 273.42502, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 273.64502, "end": 273.965 }, { "text": "And and I think you're, this is a thread I really wanna pull on in our conversation as we, continue it in terms of, like, why it's really important to understand sort of the efficacy of interventions or perceptions of interventions.", "start": 273.965, "end": 288.36002 }, { "text": "Michal, I wanna loop you in.", "start": 289.46002, "end": 291.06 }, { "text": "You've also been looking at how users think about or perceive age verification systems.", "start": 291.38, "end": 297.175 }, { "text": "Most recently, you put out a brief, think you know, which covers how parents and teenagers think about different age verification approaches.", "start": 297.315, "end": 305.735 } ], "start": 273.64502, "end": 305.735, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Tell us a little bit more about this research and what age verification approaches you included in this study.", "start": 306.195, "end": 311.89 } ], "start": 306.195, "end": 311.89, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 311.95, "end": 312.45 }, { "text": "And, glad to be here today.", "start": 312.51, "end": 314.37 }, { "text": "So this work that we did on age verification was part of a broader research study where we wanted to better understand how young people and their parents perceive a range of child safety policy proposals.", "start": 314.83002, "end": 327.73502 }, { "text": "We've seen that policy making and research many times occurs on these two different planes, and we wanted to bring that together.", "start": 328.515, "end": 335.495 }, { "text": "So we looked into all kinds of things that are being proposed in the in the policy space.", "start": 335.93, "end": 339.95 } ], "start": 311.95, "end": 339.95, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And for age verification, we talk to people about several approaches, ID based verification, face scanning for age estimation, device based and app based verification, and parental verification.", "start": 340.17, "end": 354.385 }, { "text": "And so these different approaches, we talk to people because we used, a human centered design research approach, and it's not always well understood as, differently different from technical or usability evaluations.", "start": 355.245, "end": 369.28 }, { "text": "So unlike technical evaluations that focus on feasibility or usability testing that emphasizes, efficiency and ease of use, Design research allows people to explore a wide range of possibilities, for future interactions.", "start": 369.58, "end": 385.915 }, { "text": "And when we talk to them, we talk to them within a particular context, and we try to talk through what a particular scenario might look like.", "start": 386.535, "end": 395.5 }, { "text": "And so when we engage with teens and their parents in these structured conversations, we were trying to capture what would work, not on a technical level, but what aligns or misaligns with their lived experiences and their values.", "start": 395.5, "end": 408.655 } ], "start": 340.17, "end": 408.655, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 408.795, "end": 409.035 }, { "text": "McCall, I'm I'm curious.", "start": 409.035, "end": 409.995 }, { "text": "I mean, one of the really interesting, sort of dynamics in this space, is is how fragmented the regulatory environment is around what actual actual sort of age verification mechanisms are mandated by law.", "start": 409.995, "end": 422.23 }, { "text": "I'm curious when it came to actually engaging with teens and parents, was there you know, how did people feel about the different age verification mechanisms?", "start": 422.45, "end": 430.79 }, { "text": "Were there ones that were preferred to others?", "start": 431.29498, "end": 433.375 } ], "start": 408.795, "end": 433.375, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 433.375, "end": 433.695 }, { "text": "I think, one common thread that we've seen across all the different, situations and scenarios that we presented was that people were highly concerned about their privacy and we're very sensitive to uploading any kind of verification or providing any type of verification that requires identifiable information, ID, even syncing with someone's phone.", "start": 433.695, "end": 455.8 }, { "text": "People perceive a phone as a highly private possession and that has a lot of information on it.", "start": 455.94, "end": 461.32498 }, { "text": "And so anything like that requires a lot of transparency and really making sure the users walk through exactly what is being done.", "start": 461.32498, "end": 470.06497 }, { "text": "And so this is kind of a thing that kept coming back and we kept coming back to with the with people.", "start": 470.3, "end": 476.56 } ], "start": 433.375, "end": 476.56, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There seems to be this gap also between how users perceive systems or, like, what they, you know, how they trust these systems and then also how they work?", "start": 476.7, "end": 486.745 }, { "text": "Like, why why does perception matter so much in terms of, like, the actual implementation of these systems?", "start": 486.745, "end": 494.845 } ], "start": 476.7, "end": 494.845, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, it matters because at the end, people are going to be encountering these technologies, and they will be responding in various ways.", "start": 495.065, "end": 503.52 }, { "text": "It's not about what can or cannot be done technically.", "start": 503.52, "end": 506.4 }, { "text": "Of course, it's a it's an important component.", "start": 506.4, "end": 508.25998 }, { "text": "But what we look at when we do human centered research is we try to understand how people are going to encounter these things.", "start": 508.4, "end": 515.09503 }, { "text": "And that's why research, like the research that Ziv did, is so important because it actually looks into real reactions and real things that are happening, and that really can determine whether some kind of intervention succeeds succeeds or not.", "start": 515.09503, "end": 529.39 } ], "start": 495.065, "end": 529.39, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so, Ziv, I'm curious for you to talk a little more also about how you think that implies back to policy.", "start": 529.39, "end": 536.11 }, { "text": "Is there any are there any tweaks that could make this better, or are you mostly looking at what others should or shouldn't do?", "start": 536.11, "end": 544.065 } ], "start": 529.39, "end": 544.065, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 544.145, "end": 544.305 }, { "text": "So I think this is a really important point.", "start": 544.305, "end": 546.225 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 546.225, "end": 546.545 }, { "text": "Like, users' perceptions of the intervention will ultimately drive its efficacy when it comes to the point of the intervention, which is to change user behavior.", "start": 546.545, "end": 556.785 }, { "text": "And so what we were sort of interested in studying was when users sort of suddenly found themselves in this different regulatory environment where they were constantly needing to age verify, what did they do?", "start": 556.785, "end": 567.47003 } ], "start": 544.145, "end": 567.47003, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think one of the interesting parts here though is that it's not just users, it's also firms themselves.", "start": 567.93, "end": 572.83 }, { "text": "And so what we looked at in our study was that there were two there were two major adult content sort of platforms in The US, Pornhub and Xvideos.", "start": 573.375, "end": 581.79504 }, { "text": "And at the time, what made it sort of easy to study was that Pornhub was the most popular adult content platform in the country.", "start": 582.255, "end": 588.35504 }, { "text": "And Xvideos was second.", "start": 588.77997, "end": 590.16 }, { "text": "Pornhub is based in North America and complied with all of the laws.", "start": 590.22, "end": 593.68 } ], "start": 567.93, "end": 593.68, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In the case of Louisiana, they stayed active in the state because they felt comfortable with the age verification mechanism and felt that it was sufficiently sort of privacy preserving.", "start": 593.74, "end": 603.985 }, { "text": "In every other state, they actually shut down operations entirely.", "start": 604.045, "end": 606.945 }, { "text": "Xvideos is based in in The Czech Republic.", "start": 607.32495, "end": 610.065 }, { "text": "They did not comply with any of the state laws.", "start": 610.52496, "end": 612.76495 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 612.76495, "end": 612.925 } ], "start": 593.74, "end": 612.925, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so they were not requiring age verification.", "start": 612.925, "end": 615.345 }, { "text": "And so it it offered this really sort of easy test case to see what users did when it came to sort of two behaviors of interest for us.", "start": 615.40497, "end": 623.45 }, { "text": "One was substitution.", "start": 623.45, "end": 624.51 }, { "text": "So did did users substitute a compliant firm for a noncompliant or compliant website for a noncompliant website?", "start": 624.65, "end": 630.99 }, { "text": "And the second was sort of convention.", "start": 631.165, "end": 632.525 } ], "start": 612.925, "end": 632.525, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Did we see evidence that users sought out VPNs in order to mask their location so they could get around age verification requirements?", "start": 632.525, "end": 640.225 }, { "text": "And and we saw really stark evidence of both.", "start": 640.525, "end": 643.08 }, { "text": "I think right.", "start": 643.56, "end": 644.12 }, { "text": "And so, you know, McCall, you were asking the question, you know, what what might work here?", "start": 644.12, "end": 647.88 }, { "text": "Well, for starters, we probably don't want to have a regulatory environment where a website ends up benefiting from noncompliance.", "start": 647.88, "end": 655.74 } ], "start": 632.525, "end": 655.74, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Not only sort of economically is that probably not what we want to be doing, but also when it comes to to to users who are trying to navigate this sort of new environment.", "start": 656.535, "end": 665.195 }, { "text": "Pornhub and x videos, we're not we're not qualitatively the same websites.", "start": 665.415, "end": 668.695 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 668.695, "end": 668.855 }, { "text": "Pornhub, while far from perfect, has a trust and safety function, whereas x videos doesn't.", "start": 668.855, "end": 673.55 }, { "text": "And there's been some really good reporting on just, I mean, how how horrible some of the the content is on x videos.", "start": 673.55, "end": 680.03 } ], "start": 656.535, "end": 680.03, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so we ended up shifting users into, onto a website that had qualitatively worse content.", "start": 680.03, "end": 686.09503 }, { "text": "So I think for a start for starters, it's sort of interesting.", "start": 686.23505, "end": 689.275 }, { "text": "We probably want better websites to stay active in The States and thinking about a regulatory environment that allows them to do so.", "start": 689.275, "end": 695.58 } ], "start": 680.03, "end": 695.58, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think in, in your study, Ziv, you also sort of cite Ron Deibert's work where you sort of, like, talk a little bit about the ingenuity of users and, like, the, like, desire users will always have to, like, circumvent or find the content that they're looking for or find things that they're looking for?", "start": 695.74, "end": 713.235 }, { "text": "Like, how comfortable, I guess, do you fee you know, how do you perceive the findings in this study or this pertaining to the Louisiana law to extrapolate into other instances?", "start": 713.235, "end": 724.57 }, { "text": "Like, are there is is the sort of user substitution and circumvention findings applicable in other age verification settings, do you think?", "start": 724.71, "end": 732.95 } ], "start": 695.74, "end": 732.95, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 732.95, "end": 733.19 }, { "text": "I mean, it's it's it's a really good question.", "start": 733.19, "end": 734.95 }, { "text": "So I don't have good quantitative data on whether or not we would find exactly the same user behavior.", "start": 734.95, "end": 740.765 }, { "text": "I think what's interesting about adult content specifically is that it's directly substitutable.", "start": 740.985, "end": 745.245 }, { "text": "It's not like, let's say, a social media platform where you have really strong network effects because your friends are there.", "start": 745.46497, "end": 750.58496 } ], "start": 732.95, "end": 750.58496, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, you know, it's not just simply that you could go from one social media platform to a to another if the, you know, former age verifies and the latter doesn't.", "start": 750.58496, "end": 758.80005 }, { "text": "For us, what we really where where we're sort of I have landed, I won't speak on behalf of my coauthors on the paper, is is I sort of come back to this, like, Casey Newton refrain that we can't solve sort of societal problems at the level of tech policy.", "start": 759.26, "end": 771.745 }, { "text": "And I think nowhere is that more, you know, true than than here.", "start": 771.885, "end": 775.405 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 775.405, "end": 775.645 }, { "text": "And so if we sort of abstract out when it comes to age verification, the question that we're really asking is, how do we help children grow into well functioning adults capable of building healthy and meaningful intimate relationships?", "start": 775.645, "end": 787.05 } ], "start": 750.58496, "end": 787.05, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and that doesn't mean that there aren't very sort of novel risks, that warrant sort of interventions given the sort of digital environment that that kids are now in.", "start": 787.83, "end": 797.30505 }, { "text": "But the underlying issues are far broader than digital technologies.", "start": 797.36505, "end": 800.505 }, { "text": "And so for, you know, for I think my frustration at times has been age verification has been this sort of single policy mechanism that we seem to be coming back to now all over the world in order to try to to sort of support kids.", "start": 800.565, "end": 815.08 }, { "text": "At the same time, we're doing things like defunding the Institute of Education Sciences.", "start": 815.08, "end": 818.83997 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 818.83997, "end": 819.0 } ], "start": 787.83, "end": 819.0, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So for me, like, they're all sort of the same part of the same policy package, which should be around, you know, investing in education, research, and social support for kids, and age assurance or age verification might be part of it.", "start": 819.0, "end": 830.595 }, { "text": "But but it's a really small piece of what needs to be a much broader set of interventions that sadly, I don't think we're investing as as much as we are investing in in age assurance.", "start": 830.65497, "end": 840.71 } ], "start": 819.0, "end": 840.71, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then we see platforms like Blue Sky remove their services in places like Mississippi, so that's probably not the goal.", "start": 840.71, "end": 848.17004 } ], "start": 840.71, "end": 848.17004, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hopefully, not the goal.", "start": 849.11005, "end": 850.33 } ], "start": 849.11005, "end": 850.33, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 850.63, "end": 851.025 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 851.265, "end": 851.42505 }, { "text": "There is this, like, sort of question of, like, proportionality.", "start": 851.42505, "end": 853.92505 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 854.22504, "end": 854.625 }, { "text": "And, like, also, I think a little bit of, like, disaggregation that needs to happen in terms of, like, what problems we're trying to solve.", "start": 854.625, "end": 861.42505 } ], "start": 850.63, "end": 861.42505, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, I think sometimes age verification is, like, you know, if we're trying to propose age verification approaches because some of the tech has advanced, that sort of neither here nor there if the problem we're trying to solve is more nuanced.", "start": 861.42505, "end": 876.41003 }, { "text": "And and, Mikala, I think in some of your work, including this sort of, study where you're trying to understand teens and parents' perception of proposed policy and or technical interventions, but in also your other work on, like, how do users, specifically child users, act when they encounter sort of negative messages on messaging platforms.", "start": 876.47003, "end": 896.71 }, { "text": "One of the threads that you've pulled across all of this work is, like, parents and teens together, but also separately have really sophisticated tools to keep children safe online.", "start": 898.21, "end": 908.71 }, { "text": "Can you talk a little bit about, yeah, what are the other approaches that you found have helped?", "start": 908.835, "end": 913.875 }, { "text": "What are parents doing in this, like, new sort of complex landscape of the big bad web?", "start": 913.875, "end": 919.655 } ], "start": 861.42505, "end": 919.655, "num_words": 163.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 919.79504, "end": 920.03503 }, { "text": "That was really interesting.", "start": 920.03503, "end": 921.23505 }, { "text": "And as a parent to two toddlers, I am very I I got a bunch of perspectives on what to do with teens, so I I feel prepared.", "start": 921.23505, "end": 929.31 }, { "text": "But, I think one thing that has been really interesting for me is that parents really take a range of approaches and families adjust to their needs, which seems like an obvious statement.", "start": 930.41003, "end": 943.895 }, { "text": "But in this context, we've seen that parents and kids work through what works for them in the context of technology use, in the context of platforms and social media.", "start": 943.895, "end": 955.12 } ], "start": 919.79504, "end": 955.12, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so one thing that we've seen that was particularly promising was parental age verification so that parents have a a way of verifying their child's age.", "start": 955.42, "end": 966.98505 }, { "text": "And one reason why that was particularly promising for people was that it allowed to keep the decision making within the household, and it allowed some flexibility that is needed.", "start": 966.98505, "end": 978.685 }, { "text": "Because as we know and lots of research has said again and again that children are different, their maturity is different, how they approach platforms is different.", "start": 979.14, "end": 989.06 }, { "text": "And so having this option allowed parents, to a, get a better sense of where their where their kids are going online, what platforms they want to join.", "start": 989.06, "end": 999.555 }, { "text": "So it also gives them a way to kind of consent to what is happening.", "start": 999.555, "end": 1003.975 } ], "start": 955.42, "end": 1003.975, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But the other part of it is that it gives them flexibility to decide together to lie about the the child's age, which I found really interesting because it's something that kept coming like, it wasn't only one or two parents who mentioned it.", "start": 1004.86, "end": 1020.065 }, { "text": "This was something that happens that parents and teens decide together.", "start": 1020.065, "end": 1023.60504 }, { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1023.66504, "end": 1023.985 }, { "text": "You're not at the right age yet according to, you know, social media's, recommendation, but you are mature enough, and we think that you're ready to go on to this platform.", "start": 1023.985, "end": 1037.2101 }, { "text": "And the and vice versa.", "start": 1037.51, "end": 1038.87 } ], "start": 1004.86, "end": 1038.87, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We've also seen cases in which a platform, Snapchat, let's say, is from a particular age and the child is older than that, but the parents and teens decide together that maybe it's too soon for them to go on that platform.", "start": 1038.87, "end": 1052.0651 }, { "text": "And so this approach allows for more flexibility for parents and teens to have a conversation and to decide together.", "start": 1052.4451, "end": 1060.385 }, { "text": "I will say this wouldn't work for all households.", "start": 1060.605, "end": 1063.51 }, { "text": "There are some kids who don't have that kind of support and communication system with their parents.", "start": 1063.51, "end": 1068.25 }, { "text": "And so that leads me to another important finding that we are highlighting in this work is that we need a variety of approaches and a variety of options because, of course, there was no no consensus on all the different age verification methods that we talked about.", "start": 1068.39, "end": 1083.775 } ], "start": 1038.87, "end": 1083.775, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And different people feel differently and feel a range of comfort around different age verification methods.", "start": 1083.915, "end": 1091.295 }, { "text": "And so giving users a little menu of possibilities would really help, especially as this is kind of becoming a standard to get a sense of what they can do or or choose something that they feel personally comfortable with.", "start": 1091.65, "end": 1105.495 } ], "start": 1083.915, "end": 1105.495, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1105.495, "end": 1105.655 }, { "text": "And it it's it's interesting how far we are away from anything that probably, like, the three of us on this call or on this podcast would consider to be, like like, a normatively, like, good policy endpoint here when it comes to actually thinking about age verification mechanisms that are rigorous privacy preserving and and sort of empowering to users.", "start": 1105.655, "end": 1126.43 }, { "text": "I mean, in doing in doing our work, we we focused first on Louisiana, but ultimately, we we studied the effect on 15 states.", "start": 1126.43, "end": 1132.43 }, { "text": "We're updating our analysis now, after after the Supreme Court decision.", "start": 1132.67, "end": 1136.635 }, { "text": "And so I think it'll be up to to 20 or 21 states that'll be in the final paper.", "start": 1136.635, "end": 1140.7351 } ], "start": 1105.495, "end": 1140.7351, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But it's it's a total mess across these states when it comes at the actual mechanisms for age verification.", "start": 1141.1151, "end": 1146.7351 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1147.07, "end": 1147.3099 }, { "text": "Everything from a digital ID if a state has it to a physical ID upload to transaction data to a face scan.", "start": 1147.3099, "end": 1154.37 }, { "text": "In Tennessee, you, certain adult content websites, they're required to to reverify every hour.", "start": 1154.99, "end": 1161.4149 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1161.4149, "end": 1161.655 } ], "start": 1141.1151, "end": 1161.655, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, it's just it's so far away from what we would consider to be to be sort of an age verification regime where users actually would want to sort of engage in that verification process.", "start": 1161.655, "end": 1173.515 }, { "text": "It it's it's actually in in the case of some states, the age verification mechanisms were so sloppily written.", "start": 1173.7699, "end": 1179.45 }, { "text": "It almost felt like like the intended purpose was to essentially push users out into, like, the less regulated Internet, because it just doesn't make sense why, why the policy would end up there.", "start": 1179.45, "end": 1190.105 }, { "text": "And I think I've been broadly frustrated with, with the fact that, you know, while I sort of understand the general intuition of wanting to sort of invest in, in, in age verification, why there hasn't been more engagement with what a sort of, you know, best in class approach might might look like.", "start": 1190.105, "end": 1206.5599 }, { "text": "And it seems like it seems like state lawmakers, you know, have largely, you know, they passed the bill and they said our our work here is done.", "start": 1206.5599, "end": 1214.26 } ], "start": 1161.655, "end": 1214.26, "num_words": 171.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1215.0651, "end": 1215.305 }, { "text": "It seems like there's a lot of work that can be also done at, like, the standards level here of, like, trying to create a floor of, like, what privacy preserving or what anonymity, anonymity preserving age verification could look like.", "start": 1215.305, "end": 1228.8 }, { "text": "I know that the Louisiana law is actually, like, singular in mentioning even anonymity in a way that, like, the other state laws aren't.", "start": 1228.8, "end": 1236.08 }, { "text": "But, you know, our colleague Nick Doty has been thinking a lot about, like, what are existing, privacy standards that can be used to create alternative approaches to enable, parents, for example, to say, okay.", "start": 1236.08, "end": 1249.2051 }, { "text": "Sites that are already labeled, adult content, like, how can labeling and signaling methods try to lead to more of a robust browser level set of controls where parents can say, okay.", "start": 1249.2051, "end": 1261.87 } ], "start": 1215.0651, "end": 1261.87, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "No adult content can be accessed on, like, safe mode here.", "start": 1261.87, "end": 1265.7899 }, { "text": "So there are other approaches, but I think instead, in addition to what you're saying of, like, the incentives that these bills are creating, you know, a lot of these bills use, like, language like, use commercially viable methods to age verify, which to me seems like a silver platter delivery to the sort of cottage industry of age verification providers regardless of, like, actually what, you know, their data collection retention policies are, exactly what data you know, how accurate their systems are, etcetera.", "start": 1265.7899, "end": 1298.0751 }, { "text": "And in what we what we saw in The UK, like, a lot of these age verification mandates are just incredibly burdensome and, like, cost prohibitive and are, you know, to Michal's point, like blue sky leaving Mississippi or footy club saying, actually, we're not going to have new accounts register anymore because we can't verify those accounts.", "start": 1298.615, "end": 1319.49 }, { "text": "So you can, like, consume the content a little bit, but we have to, like, limit access to a lot of it as well because, you know, we know football conversations also, like, go awry, I guess.", "start": 1319.49, "end": 1329.875 }, { "text": "So I I think there's a lot of factors that sort of, like, poke holes at the claim that age verification is, like, a perfect child safety size Band Aid error.", "start": 1330.815, "end": 1339.53 } ], "start": 1261.87, "end": 1339.53, "num_words": 222.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I guess, like, you know, I I really I have a couple of interesting I'm really interested in your, like, the larger argument of why empirical research here is needed.", "start": 1339.53, "end": 1350.11 }, { "text": "But before that, I think one final question about the findings, like, I think what you know, if we wanted to package some of these findings to policymakers, like, what would we be saying?", "start": 1350.245, "end": 1359.4451 }, { "text": "Like, what does age verification mean for users and and what they will and will not, experience?", "start": 1359.4451, "end": 1365.83 } ], "start": 1339.53, "end": 1365.83, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "When it comes to engaging policy makers on these findings, I we really want to emphasize the potential for substitution or convention.", "start": 1366.05, "end": 1373.59 }, { "text": "And that, ultimately, these interventions are attempting to shift behavior and that that's a sort of empirically testable question.", "start": 1374.45, "end": 1383.235 }, { "text": "And we hope that they're just really quick policy feedback loops.", "start": 1384.015, "end": 1387.395 }, { "text": "I actually am not against policy experimentation sort of more broadly in tech policy.", "start": 1387.535, "end": 1393.235 }, { "text": "I think where I get frustrated is policy experimentation without a feedback loop once we start sort of collecting really rigorous data is not experimentation.", "start": 1393.4551, "end": 1401.98 } ], "start": 1366.05, "end": 1401.98, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's just sort of, you know, sloppy policy.", "start": 1402.6799, "end": 1404.78 }, { "text": "And I think that's where largely where we've ended up is that these policies passed.", "start": 1405.0, "end": 1408.655 }, { "text": "You know, if we have our paper, there are a couple others that are directionally sort of aligned with with their findings.", "start": 1408.655, "end": 1414.775 }, { "text": "We have some, some, you know, sort of basic descriptive numbers coming out of, you know, the first month of of The UK suggesting very similar things are happening there.", "start": 1414.775, "end": 1423.53 }, { "text": "And so I just think that if policymakers want to want to sort of actually make, you know, headway on on the actual behavior that they're trying to shift, they really, really need to think about circumvention and substitution, which is why McCall's work is so important here.", "start": 1423.53, "end": 1436.25 } ], "start": 1402.6799, "end": 1436.25, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 1436.25, "end": 1436.535 }, { "text": "The way that you start to think about what a different age verification sort of regime might look like is you actually go and you engage the communities who are gonna be impacted by this.", "start": 1436.615, "end": 1444.6951 }, { "text": "And so I think, you know, sort of pairing our work together is a really nice way of thinking about what sort of an evidence based approach to this policy space might look like.", "start": 1444.6951, "end": 1453.33 } ], "start": 1436.25, "end": 1453.33, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I agree with that.", "start": 1453.55, "end": 1454.59 }, { "text": "And, if I can add one more complaint, I think there and this is also a classic researcher move, so apologies for that.", "start": 1454.59, "end": 1462.43 }, { "text": "But we need more human centered research, guys.", "start": 1462.43, "end": 1465.41 }, { "text": "I mean, if there's just not enough research here and I'm so glad that we're having this conversation and that we do have actors, and organizations who are having this research done, but it's not enough.", "start": 1465.665, "end": 1478.97 }, { "text": "And I think a lot of the conversation has just been about the technical feasibility of approaches, and that's not the whole conversation.", "start": 1478.97, "end": 1486.19 } ], "start": 1453.55, "end": 1486.19, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like I said, it's an important part of it, but it can't be tested technically alone.", "start": 1486.25, "end": 1491.5499 }, { "text": "It has to be tested and piloted and shaped with the people who are going to be impacted and who will be using these platforms.", "start": 1491.845, "end": 1499.145 } ], "start": 1486.25, "end": 1499.145, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think what's interesting here is, right, like, we we passed, especially in The US, a ton of I mean, you're right now about half the states, have age verification laws.", "start": 1500.165, "end": 1509.1 }, { "text": "And they're all for platforms.", "start": 1510.0399, "end": 1511.74 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1512.12, "end": 1512.36 }, { "text": "It sort of it assumes right.", "start": 1512.36, "end": 1513.7999 }, { "text": "I mean, at least in in almost all of the states, it has this, you know, they they determine what's in a a covered website based off of a threshold in most states.", "start": 1513.7999, "end": 1522.185 } ], "start": 1500.165, "end": 1522.185, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's it's a third of the content on the platform, is is classified as as adult, which requires you to have sort of a numerator and a denominator.", "start": 1522.265, "end": 1530.125 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1530.185, "end": 1530.3451 }, { "text": "It has this sort of platform intuition to it.", "start": 1530.3451, "end": 1532.765 }, { "text": "But, now kids are using chatbots, and there's this whole sort of cottage industry of of erotic chatbots that have popped up.", "start": 1533.625, "end": 1541.7001 }, { "text": "Those totally sidestep the way that we have thought about at least in The US sort of threshold.", "start": 1541.76, "end": 1547.28 } ], "start": 1522.265, "end": 1547.28, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 1547.28, "end": 1547.6001 }, { "text": "The content doesn't exist, sort of ex ante.", "start": 1547.6001, "end": 1551.035 }, { "text": "And so, you know, we we we passed a whole host of laws, essentially at the moment that the world changed.", "start": 1551.035, "end": 1555.995 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1555.995, "end": 1556.155 }, { "text": "I mean, they sort of started coming online about two, two and a half years ago, and we're gonna need to totally rethink them for for the age of chatbots.", "start": 1556.155, "end": 1563.33 } ], "start": 1547.28, "end": 1563.33, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And to be honest, I'm much more nervous about chatbots because it sort of pairs the, like, erotic and parasocial in ways that I think are potentially I mean, I don't wanna get out over my skis.", "start": 1563.33, "end": 1573.89 }, { "text": "I'm not a psychologist, but, you know, there it feels it feels straightforward that it's just sort of, like, obviously scary and developmentally, potentially inappropriate for for for kids.", "start": 1573.89, "end": 1583.4149 }, { "text": "And right now, those aren't covered by any of the laws.", "start": 1583.475, "end": 1586.035 }, { "text": "And so I think it's a really good opportunity to engage with with work like McCall and your other colleagues at CDT are doing around how do we get this right and and the way that you start is you you I", "start": 1586.035, "end": 1594.89 } ], "start": 1563.33, "end": 1594.89, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "think, you just gave us, part two of the converse tech talk conversation with you and Michal.", "start": 1594.89, "end": 1600.41 }, { "text": "So, but it's it's certainly something we're thinking a lot about And this sort of platform, like, very narrow platform view of kids' safety legislation, I think, is 100% accurate but also scary because, like, now we're gonna see this, like, whole new flurry of bills that are, like, prematurely trying to be, like, let's, you know, stop everything, halt the horses.", "start": 1600.41, "end": 1622.2899 }, { "text": "I'm just gonna take moderator privilege also to say, you know, beyond, to to answer that question of, like, I think what policymakers need to know, which is, you know, not only the sort of socio technical context in which these age verification laws are being implemented, the the importance of sort of doing this human centered research and understanding user perception as the proxy for effectiveness of these laws.", "start": 1622.2899, "end": 1646.225 }, { "text": "But, also, to poke holes a little bit at the claims that age verification systems are technically feasible all the time.", "start": 1646.365, "end": 1653.7899 }, { "text": "You know, a lot of our research, in the policy front at CDT has been focused on the fact that these so called, you know, 100% accurate, verification and estimatory methods work across all users.", "start": 1653.7899, "end": 1668.755 } ], "start": 1594.89, "end": 1668.755, "num_words": 205.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, a lot of the research we found is that, users with disabilities, users of color are routinely misclassified by these more machine learning or inference systems.", "start": 1668.755, "end": 1680.14 }, { "text": "Verification systems also, fall short, for a lot of users who don't have ID, don't have valid ID.", "start": 1680.92, "end": 1687.18 }, { "text": "And I always like to sort of quote Kate Ruan, the director of our free expression team at CDT, who says, you know, even a single small you know, single digit error rate when it accounts for the scale at which people are using these services is gonna be a big number.", "start": 1687.3201, "end": 1703.495 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1703.495, "end": 1703.735 }, { "text": "Like, a fraction of a a large number is gonna be a large number.", "start": 1703.735, "end": 1706.855 } ], "start": 1668.755, "end": 1706.855, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think what we're talking about is, like, thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who are gonna be misclassified and are going to be stuck in this dead end of accessing the web, whether to provide even more sensitive information to these already data rich tech companies or for go service or, as the viewer studies have shown, like, access sort of, like, more murky territory on the Internet.", "start": 1706.855, "end": 1728.295 }, { "text": "So all to say that I think I think this conversation has been fascinating, has sort of raised a lot of questions that I think I hope policymakers, industry experts, researchers are sort of penning down and and pursuing in their own sort of Internet research holes.", "start": 1728.595, "end": 1743.6799 }, { "text": "And we could go on for so much longer, but thank you so much for your time.", "start": 1744.14, "end": 1748.415 } ], "start": 1706.855, "end": 1748.415, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you.", "start": 1748.495, "end": 1748.8151 } ], "start": 1748.495, "end": 1748.8151, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks for", "start": 1748.8151, "end": 1749.615 } ], "start": 1748.8151, "end": 1749.615, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "having us.", "start": 1749.615, "end": 1750.435 } ], "start": 1749.615, "end": 1750.435, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you for listening to Tech Talks presented by the Center for Democracy and Technology.", "start": 1751.535, "end": 1756.115 }, { "text": "I've been your host, Jamal Magdi.", "start": 1756.735, "end": 1758.755 }, { "text": "Tech Talks is edited by Jacob Kaufman and produced by Drew Courtney.", "start": 1758.9751, "end": 1762.675 }, { "text": "Check out more of CDT's work by visiting us online at cdt.org and on various social media at syndemtech.", "start": 1762.95, "end": 1770.25 }, { "text": "That's syndemtech.", "start": 1771.51, "end": 1772.6499 } ], "start": 1751.535, "end": 1772.6499, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks for talking tech.", "start": 1775.6841, "end": 1777.144 } ], "start": 1775.6841, "end": 1777.144, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 0.08, "end": 9.86, "confidence": 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Like, are there", "words": [ { "word": "to", "start": 722.63, "end": 722.87, "confidence": 0.999629, "punctuated_word": "to", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7037235 }, { "word": "extrapolate", "start": 722.87, "end": 723.35004, "confidence": 0.99966884, "punctuated_word": "extrapolate", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7037235 }, { "word": "into", "start": 723.35004, "end": 723.67, "confidence": 0.9994541, "punctuated_word": "into", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7037235 }, { "word": "other", "start": 723.67, "end": 724.07, "confidence": 0.99993336, "punctuated_word": "other", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7037235 }, { "word": "instances", "start": 724.07, "end": 724.57, "confidence": 0.9532326, "punctuated_word": "instances?", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7037235 }, { "word": "like", "start": 724.71, "end": 725.03, "confidence": 0.99635863, "punctuated_word": "Like,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6134318 }, { "word": "are", "start": 725.03, "end": 725.19, "confidence": 0.99914443, "punctuated_word": "are", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6134318 }, { "word": "there", "start": 725.19, "end": 725.69, "confidence": 0.9993455, "punctuated_word": "there", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6134318 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "1d4effeb-ca1c-4eb5-99c9-03774fb33236" }, { "start": 726.15, "end": 758.80005, "confidence": 0.97534555, "channel": 0, "transcript": "is is the sort of user substitution and circumvention findings applicable in other age verification settings, do you think? 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