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And to that end, we thought it might be interesting to have something akin to a retro discussion. So for this episode, we'll be joined by Leah Bannon, a Product Manager with United States Digital Service, and Veronica Young, program manager with Code for America. Each of them will bring you a unique perspective to a conversation about things that went well, things that didn't go well, and a whole bunch of lessons learned along the way over the past year. So with all that said, let's go ahead and hop into this discussion. Veronica, Leah, thank you both for coming on Civic Tech Chat today. Could each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about what you do? Sure. Hi. I'm my name is Veronica Young, and I'm one of the program managers here on the network team at Code for America. My background is in political and community organizing, and I've been really excited for the last year and a half to bring some of those skills and background to, the brigade network at Code for America. And I'm Leah Bannon. I'm a product manager at the United States Digital Service. I'm currently based at the VA. And before that, I was at ATNA for four years. I worked primarily on the Federal Election Commission and FOIA projects. And before that, I was a a cook for DC brigade captain. So I know Veronica a little bit from some of that overlap. Awesome. Thank you both for sharing that. I I think based on your backgrounds, we're gonna have, like, a a really interesting conversation here. And to hop us right into that, I'd like to start us off with a kind of intro reflection questions perhaps to warm us up, to ask each of you what a priority you successfully gave intention to was, and what's one that you neglected over the past year. And, Veronica, would you like to start us off with this one? Sure. So something that I give a lot of priority to, is really trying to use my role to be able to be a platform for the work that other people are doing. And so something that I really tried to work on in this last year was making sure to, source a lot of folks' interests and, what they were looking to do and then, hoping to apply that to, the actual work that we did or the events that we had. So an example for this would be, we held our second Brigade Congress last year, in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we had an advisory committee for the content for, for that Congress. And so being able to lift up what the committee's interests were, who were getting information and ideas from other people. So it's kind of a step by step, lifting up process to ensure that or hope to ensure that, folks' voices are being listened to and that the content that was provided was something that was helpful and useful, for everybody that was attending. So that's something that I really enjoyed doing. In terms of neglection, I'd say that last year was a little bit of a difficult year because it felt like we were always trying to catch up to whatever the event was or whatever the moment was. And, I think something we've been able to do a little bit better this year, starting at the end of last year, is do some real intentional forward planning, and some that's something that we're going to continue to do with the network. But, last year, there was a lot of playing catch up, and this year, we're trying to, do some really hard intentional planning for the year and then the years to come. That's so interesting. I, for for me, my answers are pretty similar. I think, I for the priority, I gave a lot of attention to, I I had a pretty serious surgery last summer, and that really forced me to kind of stop in my tracks and a lot of things that I was pushing way too hard on and, kinda reflect on some of that thing and, like, push myself to better understand what I was good at and where I can provide the most benefit. And, also, kind of a couple years after leaving DC, I mean, when I was in DC at the time, I had, done a lot of work with the code for DC brigade and also some community organizing to improve the face of civic tech or just tech in DC around, Tech Lady Hackathon, which we changed to Tech Rebalance the training days and and and doing a lot of encouraging work to get more folks into the community. But that kind of put me in a point where I was well known for a lot of things in that area and didn't know how to handle all the onslaught of requests for, support or advice or, showing up to things and, getting kind of burned out. And when I had my surgery and stuff, that really, like, pushed me again to kinda reassess and figure out, what I was missing from not from kinda stepping outside of that community organizing work and what I really needed to spend more time focusing on versus what felt more like urgent or pressing at the moment. And so I did a lot of work to, like, build up platforms or or connections and stuff to put more people in contact with each other so that I was less of the bottleneck and trying to get back to what I'm good at which is really remembering who's good at what and who's who's interested in what and promoting more people into more roles that so that they could kind of build out more communities in in that way. And the thing I neglected I mean, it's kind of the same thing in a way because I was really kind of neglecting my own, like, need for that community, and need for being a part of that civic tech space. And, I'd kind of retreated a bit, I felt like. And so, like, kind of reassessing what about it empowered me and pushed me and made me happier and filled me out more versus what just totally drained me. I'm still figuring that out, definitely. Still traveling too much and neglecting some personal care probably, but, otherwise, happier, generally. Yeah. The this sort of thing is, definitely a process. Right? There's always that I think the thing that ends up being neglected that we learn from. And with, that bit of reflection kind of done, and we kinda have that kind of basis to to to move on with, I'd like to get us into, I guess, like, the main idea of of this episode, which is to kind of talk through some items that each of you have thought of are are like, things that either went well in Civic Tech for the past year or didn't go well. And one thing that's gonna be really fun for me with this, and I'm excited, is that I have no idea what any of these items are. So I get to go along this ride with the listener. I guess, like, let's go ahead and start that off. And, the idea of this, of course, it's, like, kinda like a top two, for each of you. And I guess I'll be looking for a volunteer here who would like to get us started with the first item. I can get started. And I will also just be very transparent about the fact that my, kind of experience is very much in the kind of Code for America sphere. So, when I'm talking about things that I see as a win in civic tech, most of this is Code for America based, but I think, in some ways extends to the broader community. But something that I really enjoyed and I think, was able to kind of bring people together were some of the in person opportunities that we had to connect this last year. As I was mentioning earlier, a lot of times folks are, very much kind of in in silos where they are geographically, and it's difficult to necessarily have that connection. And so a couple of events that I was able to attend, were the Code for America Summit and Brigade Congress, which are both events put on by Code for America. And I was able to have some, planning roles in both of those events. And it was just really, really nice to actually be at those events and meet people in person and have those human connections, because so much of what we do, especially in a distributed model, is by computer or over chat, even over video, which is helpful, but actually being in the same room as people and being able to have that connection. My background is in politics, and I've worked on a number of campaigns. And, one of the things that kind of drives people in a campaign, and I think a lot of the work that folks do in an advocacy role is just that energy and that vibe. And so being able to have that energy in person at some of these events, I think really fuels me and fuels a lot of other people that are part of the network to be able to, connect and knowledge share, and actually have conversations that can last over breakfast and lunch and dinner. And so really being able to have that human connection is something that I think we're doing a little bit better on being able to get people in the same room and and get people, together in person. And so that's something that I think really developed last year, and I'm looking forward to continuing to see that develop. So, I mean, I'll share mine. I'll just say, since I'm not being paid for code by code for America, I'll just say also I totally agree. And I like, especially summit to me feels like such a rare opportunity to get so many different, like, people from digital service teams and brigades and, from across the country in one place. These are folks I often talk to frequently online and you can kind of get used to pretending that that's, keeping your relationship going and connecting, but that kind of in person chance to meet them and get introduced to their friends is really so valuable, I think. But I was gonna say for me, mine is less uplifting, but maybe maybe I can turn it around. But I mean, I think one of the biggest things that's impacted everyone over the past couple years has been me too. And I've been thinking a lot about how we become better allies. It's always a process, not a destination. And, you know, especially, I think even the sort of tech movement, you know, is certainly not, excused from any of that. And we noticed, like, a big, article come out with Clay Johnson last year that he had been heavily involved in a lot of big civic tech organizations. And there were one of the things I found most frustrating about it were the people who kept saying, I am so shocked and appalled by this. I'm so stunned and shocked because, if you had been paying attention or asking or checking in, and this is widely known by a lot of people in civic tech. And, and so I think a couple things that I often recommend to people when they're trying to become better allies is, first asking more questions. If someone seems like they might be a jerk to some people, that's usually a sign that they're even worse when you're not looking especially if, you're in a position of power in some capacity and I find that these folks are often treating more marginalized or less powerful people worse and So that should always be your trigger to check and ask more and the more power and security you have in your role or in your community the more responsibility you have there and that goes the same with sharing stories, right? The more power and responsibility and security you have the more you can you should be sharing your stories about what you experience. People will start hearing patterns, and that's really been, I think, part of the biggest strength of me too. I would say also, you know, if if you are in a position of privilege, it's more your responsibility to talk to other people with similar privilege and remind them certain things or push back on them in certain ways. Multiple studies have shown that people respond better and are more open to that feedback when it's coming from someone like them, which is frustrating but very true. If you see someone being attacked or harassed or they seem really uncomfortable in a conversation talk to them only. Ask if they're okay, if they could use any help giving you a safer space. Just asking questions, and and listening to them is really important. Respecting people's pronouns, sharing yours is a signal that it's acceptable and encouraged just to to clarify pronouns at the beginning of meetings. And then the, you know, the biggest thing that, is hard, but, gets a lot easier with practice, I swear, is, if someone corrects you or if you go overstep somehow and they push back on you, first remember that they're a compliment. We don't do that to people that we don't think care. So just really remember, like, if someone was correcting you or pointing out something you did wrong, like, they think that you're fixable and and open to feedback. And so, don't make a big deal of that of it. Apologize quickly, maybe. Say thank you. Correct it. Move on. And that's really the best way to respond to that and show that you care and are open to improving. And that's all we're looking for because nobody is perfect. And like what I said at the beginning, like, it's always a process. It's not a destination to become an ally. And then for the love of God, please stop announcing your privilege when you first start talking. If I hear one more person stand up and say as a white man, I believe X. I just, I can't take it anymore. Just that I'm not interested. Like if you have an important point to make, make it, but you're gonna need to take up space by announcing and reminding everyone how much privilege you have. I'm glad that you you highlighted the me too movement in civic tech this year. And, I just I mean, it it's just so important, for us to weave this into all of the work that we do. And this is something that, as just a human being and as a person caller and as a woman, and living at different areas of intersectionality, it's it's been very inspiring to see the focus and attention, on inclusivity and equity throughout the, the network over the last year. And I think at the at the beginning of the day, the most important thing is starting the conversation, right, which I think, was a lot of what your point was, Leah, that, that we have to start the conversation, and we can't get kind of tiptoey about it or, or get kind of in our own heads about what that conversation should look like or what that means. The fact that we're starting it is, the most important step, and then continuing it. So I think that, we have made a point to try to highlight, this work in our in person events. So at summit last year at Brigade Day, we had a whole training day that was based on, inclusivity and equity, and we have intentionally chosen speakers, at our in person events. We have a DEI consultant here at Code for America. We are in the middle of doing a brigade census to see, where our network is and be able to, make sure that we can accurately set goals, because you don't can't set a goal if you don't know where you're starting from. So, I think this is something that kind of goes into the personal and the professional area, and it's kind of a gray line. And, I think that's just the reality of what it is, but it's important for us to recognize this on a personal and professional level, given that it impacts every one of us so heavily. So, yeah, thank you for lifting that up. One thing that comes to mind hearing you both talk is that I I imagine, like, folks like, even even in these conversations, you both kind of come at it from different organizations, different places. Right? If there are folks out there that are in places that maybe aren't quite so far along the line of progress to being, like, as an organization, a good ally, are there things that you would suggest they do as being, like, a member of that organization to try to do, like, what you two are doing here and kind of, like, lifting this up as something that's important? Yeah. I mean, I'd say advocating for stuff, ahead of time before it becomes a problem, you know, like, like, even if you don't need a gender neutral bathroom, like, if there isn't one in your organization, ask for it. Like, nothing ever happened, you know things barely even just asking for it starts creating that conversation or starts, you know, if maybe one or two other people did it too like you would start noticing a little bit more push and just the more you can speak up and the more you can really message people if you don't feel publicly saying it publicly, but if you don't feel comfortable saying it publicly but you know if someone stood up and said something or requested it like the more you can do to echo people's voices, especially if you don't think that they're being listened to and, you know, asking more questions, pushing more on this stuff. Veronica, y'all have some pretty good guides and stuff for the brigades. Right? Yeah. So, so in terms of, our code of conduct, we, enforce really strongly. That's the kind of one way that we're able to, at least attempt to create a safe and inclusive environment. And then, of course, we have had, in person trainings as well. And we're currently doing more work to ensure Really Code for America. One of our goals is to be a leader in diversity, equity, and inclusion in the tech space, which is why we are taking several different measures, in order to do this, including the census, but we also did internal, census and survey of staff. And we're coming out with a diversity and equity and inclusion report, for the organization as well as setting, some goal very clear goals to ensure that we're not only, trying to be at the national curve, but ahead of the national curve in terms of, diversity, equity, and inclusion. So, yeah, I I would also say in terms of folks that may be in areas where they don't feel that, their voices as supported or that they might not have, a a lot of allies in the either geographical or, just situational spaces that they're in. I would also say that it's just really important to kind of protect yourself and, and protect your own personal space. It can be difficult to sometimes always be the advocate, for something. And so while it's important to feel empowered to lift up your voice, also ensure that you're taking care of yourself, and putting yourself in a in a space where, you feel safe. And so that can take many different forms, but making sure to keep that self care component, in there as well. You're a great one. A a couple of podcasts I recommend. I think, being able to, like, you know, listen in to some other communities and and listen to what they're talking about and pick up on the the way they describe Certain different kinds of marginalization or experience. They're really experiences, that people are going through Is is one of the biggest ways that I have learned more. I'd say I recommend pod save the people de ray mckesson is really a great leader on that. He's got an amazing book out. I highly recommend. Made of human by sophie hagan is a really good one. And oh, you know, I'm a huge fan of queer eye on Netflix. You speak queer eye for the straight guy and yeah, no, it's changed and they they also kind of address, in a fun way a lot of the common, like, misconceptions and, terminology and thoughts on, not just queer stuff, but also gender. I mean, there's obviously a lot of overlap, but, there's great stuff there. Thank thank you both for being willing to share advice on that topic. I I think folks out there will get a a lot of value out of hearing that, and, hopefully, they'll they'll learn something and maybe something that they can use to take action. Next, I guess, it's time to be to ask for volunteer again, see if we can get a new item to start talking about. Well, Ron, if you keep going first in volunteering, I appreciate it, but I'll take it take it this time. My second big thing, is about, really leaning into, end to end design processes more. You know, we say civic tech a lot is a way to describe our community, but I think, no. You you're not a digital service team if you don't have service designers. And, these are experienced designers working on understanding, not just, you know, does the form make sense when someone fills it out, but, what's the process someone goes through from starting? Embarking on a journey to try to get a benefit or or interact with the government when they're required to To the end when they're considered, you know when they consider they've got the benefit and keep pushing out on the ends of those, of that kind of journey to understand more about what we're doing and, you know, where certain steps could be skipped or made a lot simpler for people. I think, this a lot of what's really pushing this movement forward is the way that we're empowering the people affected by the work that we do or affected by interactions with government, speak about their experiences and really be heard and and listened to and have their experiences inform what we what we do and how we change it. And I think that is gonna have an increasing effect. And I've been really excited to see how it works. Especially at the state and local level. I think, like at the VA I've really watched and really been changed by watching how many billions and billions of dollars we put into building or failing to build tech to, informs that we then you know, I spend billions of dollars adjudicating and going through and and processing and you know that ends up putting a lot of government employees in an adversarial relationship with the people who are applying for benefits instead of helping them get what they need, which from my experience is what most people would rather be doing, if they went into government. And so I'm excited to see how that keeps pushing and, you know, how the movement starts pushing for, you know, baseline needs for people and and and giving people the basic human rights like health care and, food access and, improving reentry processes from the criminal justice system so that, we can really start focusing on people's needs and not, you know, efficiency or making a a prettier form. Yeah. I love that. I wanna highlight what Leah was saying because that, ties into the second area that I wanted to talk about as well. But, to stay here for a second and really talk about work that we're doing that is impact for the communities in which we're looking to work with and in which we look to serve, I think is incredibly important, and being able to actually work on projects. At Code for America, one of the things that we talk about a lot, specifically in the work that we're doing in the community fellowship, is in work that affects vulnerable populations, because I think that's really the direction that civic tech is going in. And so, not just as as Leah said, making something prettier and not just the usability of it from an ease standpoint, but also from an impact standpoint is something that we're really focusing on and one of the reasons why I feel very proud to be a part of the network and the and the work that we're doing in Civic Tech. For the second area that I had wanted to highlight, four things that have gone well, that kind of goes into coordination with that. So a lot of brigades have done a lot of work in working with partner organizations in their communities, and working with organizations that might specialize in an area that the brigade would like to work in but may not necessarily have experience in themselves. So a couple of partnerships, that fall into this category are, in Asheville. They did a lot of work with Beloved Asheville, which is an organization that works, with the homeless and the community in Asheville. In Nashville, they worked on a really interesting project with the legal city hackers, in order to help families appoint a power of attorney in the case of deportation, for parents. And they're just all throughout the brigade network are brigades working on different projects with various organizations that may not be the specialty or work experience of the folks that are part of the brigade, but they want to have an impact in an area and so have, sought out relationships, with various organizations that work in those areas. And so being able to actually say, hey. I wanna work on something, but I'm not necessarily the best person to say what the needs are of a certain community or, identify, exactly everything that's going on in somebody's experience. And working with an organization that does specifically focus on that, I think there's a real strength that comes from that, and I think that's really where a lot of our power is is in being able to bring the skills that we do have to other people who have, experience in various areas that we're looking to focus in. So I I'm really excited about this partnership aspect, that a lot of work is being done in and, has been highlighted throughout the year. Yeah. I just I just saw, y'all announced they're partnering with what is it? San Jose to do more, record expungement work? Yeah. So in Los Angeles, we're doing a partnership in Los Angeles. That was announced yesterday. And I think there's potential for up to, 50,000 people to be affected, by the rec the record clearance measures. So it's really exciting work and building off of the work that we've done in San Francisco. And what's also really exciting is brigades are, getting into the, auto expungement area as well. So for example, in Portland, they're working, with their local DA's office to work on auto expungement, as part of the brigade. So there's lots of work happening in the, expungement area in particular, where we can have a real impact, and that's really exciting. Yeah. And to me, that every time I see that that program move forward, I just I get goosebumps. I'm so excited about it. And it's such a perfect example to me of, like, addressing the needs of some of our most vulnerable communities and just fixing it for them, you know, in a way that doesn't force them to go through more forms or processes or systems, that are make things more difficult every time. Yeah. I agree. But I think that also highlights the the need for, people on on the inside, like you, Leah, and your colleagues who are able to push this forward from the inside as well. Because outside organization can only do so much. So definitely making an impact in this one specific area, but being able to have talent within government agencies at all levels, is is really where we'll, I think, have the most lasting change. That's a good point. And I should also just mention we're hiring at USDS at usds.gov/apply. They just changed it, I think. But they just launched a new website. And so we've got a lot more about what we're working on. And I mean, it's certainly one of the hardest times to be working in the federal government right now, but also, there's so few people that you if you are tough enough, you can have more of an impact now. So my DMs are open on Twitter. Let me know. We need more people. Oh, and I'll, make sure that the the link that you mentioned there is in the episode description as well. A a threat I think I was hearing from, like, both of what you're saying that kinda connects together is that, Leah, I think I heard from you this idea of, like, trying to move past, like, things that are maybe, like, actions that are, like, a paper over of of something that's bad, like a prettier form, for instance. And, Veronica, I think I heard from you, like, something maybe connects with that, this idea of, like, trying to partner, like, the right expertise to the right thing. Am I hearing that like, is there a connection there? Like, what what do you folks see as, like, being the, like, critical thing to getting past the, like, pre your form as it's been put a couple of times to something that's more of like a concrete type of solution for folks. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is about, really leaning into that user experience and gaining strength from, even if you're not it's not your job to be interviewing users sitting in on, user experience testing sessions. I draw a lot of strength in fighting for veterans by listening to, listening in on the hearings that they go through or, sitting and watching them go through forms and, their reactions to how this is more respectful or, important. And I think that continues to help push me towards fighting for, what is really the problem. Like, every time there's you know, it's very tempting in our community and in tech in general to jump to solutions before really diagnosing what the problem is and what the people really need help with or or or really struggling with. And I it's it makes it a little bit harder. It's they're definitely difficult. You need some time afterwards, sometimes after listening to these interview sessions, but, focusing more and more on what they need and setting metrics around getting people something they really need as opposed to efficiency or, you know, making it a better app so they can, do it themselves. You know, like, there's a lot of bad development or, new applications that could be built if you you're only focusing on improving efficiency. Whereas if you keep remembering who's using your service and what they really need, you can set better metrics and goals for your team based on really helping them. I agree with that, so much. I think one of the things that I think about too is is just realizing that we don't always have all of the answers. I think especially, being empowered to, be in a in a technology role. I'm not a technologist myself, but even thinking about, like, some of the the basic ways that, you know, I might be more technologically advanced than somebody else. Sometimes I think that we believe that since we have these technological skills, therefore, we can come in and just provide a a quick answer to what somebody else is experiencing and really kind of sitting back and being able to humble ourselves and say, hey. You know, actually, I might have some skills that are useful here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have, the full answer. And so being able to take a back seat to somebody else that has a lot more experience in these areas that we're working in. And being able to help where needed and also take a step back, where it's not our place to necessarily step up is really important. I think something I'm really noticing in, civic tech, especially across the digital service teams across the country, is after the first few years of developing one of these teams, you know, there's usually some early quick wins or or big problematic fires that you have a lot of, support from leadership to resolve. But after a few years, you know, we make it look easy. Right? Like good design makes it look easy. And, you know, and we we know in truth it's the opposite, but that's often difficult for leadership to keep in mind when this team seems to keep doing good work and, delivering. And so I see a lot of leadership kind of trying to, like, spread the team out across a ton more projects without really enabling, supporting them to grow, giving them the support and protection they need to keep pushing and asking the tough questions because so much of the really big wins in government come from having the the support and power to to go across several different teams or agencies within an organization and track down the real user experience from end to end. And oftentimes that means asking some of the tougher questions or or getting people to trust you, and and tell you more about what the process is like and what's wrong. And you need a lot more leadership support and protection to be able to keep doing that and keep pushing on that. And so I don't know. It's tough. Yeah. I I, I second that as well, just in terms of the fact that leadership is so important, and I think that extends to lots of different, avenues and areas. But, being able to have somebody, you know, what would be considered the top of any kind of organizational structure that you're in to be able to, go to bat for the things that you really need to do in order to make your job successful for the people that we're looking to serve is is something that's critical. And a lot of people don't have support in the roles that they're in, whether that's in their day job or whether that's in the outside work that they're doing, in all different facets. So I think that kind of comes back to the conversation we were having earlier in terms of, speaking up. And so I think it's important for leadership in every, aspect to be able to speak up as well on behalf of the folks that are working every day to make things better. Yeah. I think that's a really great point is continuing to remember how much harder it is when you don't have a great manager. You don't have a great support. I think use learning more about service design and user experience has really helped me start seeing more of these things as You know, when a team's not succeeding or something It's more about I'm more inclined to start asking What are the structures in place that are? Supporting or preventing them from succeeding and what kind of leadership did they have and how much are they allowed to voice and talk about problems or things that aren't working and the more we can provide that support for projects that we work on, but also continue to work towards improving, the job experience of civil servants is a crucial component of the work we're doing if we wanna make lasting change. So now that we've talked about, some items either went well or or didn't go well over the past year, I'd like to shift us a little bit into talking about the current year. And, to kinda support that, I came up with, like, a couple of questions that maybe we could explore a little bit. And one of those is sometimes folks will say that this is the year of the something. If you were to deposit something like that for civic tech in 2019, what would that be? And, Leah, would you like to kick us off with that? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think what I'm especially hoping for from this year is, more reflection on our own models and our own systems and what enables a digital service team or a brigade or, anyone in government to succeed and really using more of the tools that we know work to solve and figure out these challenges, like design, user experience testing, to, to take a look back at, at what's, what are these teams struggling with across the country? What, what are they, what is making their jobs harder? And and how you know, and and especially even on just an individual level on your own team, you know, if if something's really not working or there's a process that's especially difficult, you know, like taking a couple weeks off from project work to reexamine what's working on your own team and and use keep remembering to keep using the tools that we know work on ourselves as well. And, Veronica, what what would that be for you? I said that I'd love for this to be the year of empowerment. So something that I hope, to do in my role is is help empower other people to do the great work that they're doing. And so that's what I would I would love for people to feel. I hope that people feel empowered to do the work that they're doing. We, one of the parts of my job that I really enjoy is I get to talk to people that are interested in possibly starting, a brigade in in various places around the country that don't have brigades already. And, and just to be able to hear the excitement that folks have to possibly bring a brigade, and more so just kind of an arm of civic tech into their communities is really exciting. And there are obviously, amazing leaders in our communities that already exist that are doing great work. So my goal is just for folks to feel empowered to either start, doing work in the civic tech community or continue to do the work that they're doing, and feel that they have the support behind them to do so, both in a tangible way, but also just in a, hey. You're doing a great job. We recognize that this is hard work, and you're you're doing a lot of this in your spare time for free for the benefit of your community, and basically having a cheerleader to do that. So that's what my goal would be is is for folks to feel empowered in the work that they're doing. I love that. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about how the past couple years have pushed a lot of people, I think, to look more into their communities and, and build more community of, of, and build more strength from the people around them and the people that they want to uplift. And I think you know, some a lot of this work may not have gotten done or been done had the election gone a different way and I think for a lot of people in the country in this country Things would be just as bad Had the election gone a better way. So, who like, you know, who's really struggling in our communities? And how are we helping them? And and how are we reaching out to them more and realizing that we can't always trust a lot of the institutions and systems that we Thought were more trustworthy a few years ago and and now That we've been doing that work over the past couple years How are we activating that and pushing for more like Veronica was just saying and then empowering each other to to build on that people power and, make better change for our communities? So a lot of conversations I have with people, they say that in particular, the the political climate has, has launched them to want to explore, doing good in their communities, which is why they're looking into starting a brigade. And so I think that, you know, at at the end of the day, a lot of, excitement in communities is based off of the political climate, and I think it goes both ways. Like, the Tea Party, got its foundation and and rev up from, president Obama being in office. And, now we have a very strong progressive movement, that has swung the other way given the, the national politics that we're experiencing. But I will say that, at least in the civic tech community, I've, in my role, been able to see a lot of, folks doing a lot of great things in their community, based off of their feeling of wanting to, do good in their communities, which I think is great. So, I I definitely feel that the empowerment piece is is there on a certain level, and then being able to, hone that and and lift that up is something that I'm really excited to be a part of. Before we draw our conversation to a close here, is there anything, you'd like to pull out from our conversation or pull in separately that you'd like to have the listener be thinking about as they stop listening to this program? I guess the the one thing that I'd say is that the thing that I'm just most excited about, and, hopefully, everybody takes just a minute to think about the the people that we get to work with in this space. I mean, the work wouldn't be what it is without the relationships that we get to form and the people that we get to work with even being on this, you know, podcast with both of you. It's just really cool to be able to, interact with other folks that are working so hard in order to make our communities and our country a better place, and that's a really special, identity to have, because a lot of people don't have that. They don't have that sense of community or or an outlet for the, for what they'd like to see in their communities. So I think that the people aspect is really cool, and I hope that everybody, that's listening to this, you probably are somehow in civic tech if you're listening to this and, just kind of give yourself a pat on the back and appreciate the other people that are around you, because it's really special to have have a community. That's wonderful. I I think that made me that reminded me that I was thinking a lot about how, like, as any great movement, we often disagree or, we think that folks should be doing something differently or, we think that there might be a better way and I think starting with questions and because as veronica said, that's such a I mean, it's such a good point like the people who are working in this are amazing and amongst the best people you know, smartest, biggest hearts. Like it's I feel very lucky that I'm alive in the face of this while this movement is growing and, alive. And I think, starting with questions when you disagree with something an organization is doing or, you know, I'm really remembering, that not everyone in the organization may agree or and definitely not everyone's responsible for a certain initiative or a certain approach or a certain plan and, without knowing the structures that they're facing or the challenges that they're facing it's really hard to judge from the outside what what they're up against and so, reaching out and asking questions and you know, always nudging always pushing. It's good. But Or should I say and remembering to be empathetic to folks who are working on things in different structures different power structures and Supporting them and you know, you may even be giving them and empowering them by asking certain questions or pushing on different things but if you do it in a way that you're attacking them or really negative that that just makes things more difficult for everyone. So I'm always trying to find the balance and and figure out how to push more in certain ways while, maintaining empathy and relationships and support for everyone involved. Leah, veronica, I wanna thank both of you again for taking the time to come on and have this conversation. I think it's really important to now and again take the time to reflect what we observe, what we see, what, like, what's going on in the space around us. And I think you've given folks a lot of value in what you've said today and, something that's probably also very relatable for folks out there. So again, thank you both for for taking the time. Thanks so much, Ryan. 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"speaker_confidence": 0.2090928 } ], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": { "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Welcome back to another episode of Civic Tech Chat. You might or might not be aware of the fact that a couple months ago, this program turned one year old.\n\nSo as a result, we've been in a little bit of a reflective mood. And to that end, we thought it might be interesting to have something akin to a retro discussion. So for this episode, we'll be joined by Leah Bannon, a Product Manager with United States Digital Service, and Veronica Young, program manager with Code for America. Each of them will bring you a unique perspective to a conversation about things that went well, things that didn't go well, and a whole bunch of lessons learned along the way over the past year. So with all that said, let's go ahead and hop into this discussion.\n\nVeronica, Leah, thank you both for coming on Civic Tech Chat today. Could each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure. Hi. I'm my name is Veronica Young, and I'm one of the program managers here on the network team at Code for America. My background is in political and community organizing, and I've been really excited for the last year and a half to bring some of those skills and background to, the brigade network at Code for America.\n\nSpeaker 2: And I'm Leah Bannon. I'm a product manager at the United States Digital Service. I'm currently based at the VA. And before that, I was at ATNA for four years. I worked primarily on the Federal Election Commission and FOIA projects.\n\nAnd before that, I was a a cook for DC brigade captain. So I know Veronica a little bit from some of that overlap.\n\nSpeaker 0: Awesome. Thank you both for sharing that. I I think based on your backgrounds, we're gonna have, like, a a really interesting conversation here. And to hop us right into that, I'd like to start us off with a kind of intro reflection questions perhaps to warm us up, to ask each of you what a priority you successfully gave intention to was, and what's one that you neglected over the past year. And, Veronica, would you like to start us off with this one?\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure. So something that I give a lot of priority to, is really trying to use my role to be able to be a platform for the work that other people are doing. And so something that I really tried to work on in this last year was making sure to, source a lot of folks' interests and, what they were looking to do and then, hoping to apply that to, the actual work that we did or the events that we had. So an example for this would be, we held our second Brigade Congress last year, in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we had an advisory committee for the content for, for that Congress. And so being able to lift up what the committee's interests were, who were getting information and ideas from other people.\n\nSo it's kind of a step by step, lifting up process to ensure that or hope to ensure that, folks' voices are being listened to and that the content that was provided was something that was helpful and useful, for everybody that was attending. So that's something that I really enjoyed doing. In terms of neglection, I'd say that last year was a little bit of a difficult year because it felt like we were always trying to catch up to whatever the event was or whatever the moment was. And, I think something we've been able to do a little bit better this year, starting at the end of last year, is do some real intentional forward planning, and some that's something that we're going to continue to do with the network. But, last year, there was a lot of playing catch up, and this year, we're trying to, do some really hard intentional planning for the year and then the years to come.\n\nSpeaker 2: That's so interesting. I, for for me, my answers are pretty similar. I think, I for the priority, I gave a lot of attention to, I I had a pretty serious surgery last summer, and that really forced me to kind of stop in my tracks and a lot of things that I was pushing way too hard on and, kinda reflect on some of that thing and, like, push myself to better understand what I was good at and where I can provide the most benefit. And, also, kind of a couple years after leaving DC, I mean, when I was in DC at the time, I had, done a lot of work with the code for DC brigade and also some community organizing to improve the face of civic tech or just tech in DC around, Tech Lady Hackathon, which we changed to Tech Rebalance the training days and and and doing a lot of encouraging work to get more folks into the community. But that kind of put me in a point where I was well known for a lot of things in that area and didn't know how to handle all the onslaught of requests for, support or advice or, showing up to things and, getting kind of burned out.\n\nAnd when I had my surgery and stuff, that really, like, pushed me again to kinda reassess and figure out, what I was missing from not from kinda stepping outside of that community organizing work and what I really needed to spend more time focusing on versus what felt more like urgent or pressing at the moment. And so I did a lot of work to, like, build up platforms or or connections and stuff to put more people in contact with each other so that I was less of the bottleneck and trying to get back to what I'm good at which is really remembering who's good at what and who's who's interested in what and promoting more people into more roles that so that they could kind of build out more communities in in that way. And the thing I neglected I mean, it's kind of the same thing in a way because I was really kind of neglecting my own, like, need for that community, and need for being a part of that civic tech space. And, I'd kind of retreated a bit, I felt like. And so, like, kind of reassessing what about it empowered me and pushed me and made me happier and filled me out more versus what just totally drained me.\n\nI'm still figuring that out, definitely. Still traveling too much and neglecting some personal care probably, but, otherwise, happier, generally.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. The this sort of thing is, definitely a process. Right? There's always that I think the thing that ends up being neglected that we learn from. And with, that bit of reflection kind of done, and we kinda have that kind of basis to to to move on with, I'd like to get us into, I guess, like, the main idea of of this episode, which is to kind of talk through some items that each of you have thought of are are like, things that either went well in Civic Tech for the past year or didn't go well.\n\nAnd one thing that's gonna be really fun for me with this, and I'm excited, is that I have no idea what any of these items are. So I get to go along this ride with the listener. I guess, like, let's go ahead and start that off. And, the idea of this, of course, it's, like, kinda like a top two, for each of you. And I guess I'll be looking for a volunteer here who would like to get us started with the first item.\n\nSpeaker 1: I can get started. And I will also just be very transparent about the fact that my, kind of experience is very much in the kind of Code for America sphere. So, when I'm talking about things that I see as a win in civic tech, most of this is Code for America based, but I think, in some ways extends to the broader community. But something that I really enjoyed and I think, was able to kind of bring people together were some of the in person opportunities that we had to connect this last year. As I was mentioning earlier, a lot of times folks are, very much kind of in in silos where they are geographically, and it's difficult to necessarily have that connection.\n\nAnd so a couple of events that I was able to attend, were the Code for America Summit and Brigade Congress, which are both events put on by Code for America. And I was able to have some, planning roles in both of those events. And it was just really, really nice to actually be at those events and meet people in person and have those human connections, because so much of what we do, especially in a distributed model, is by computer or over chat, even over video, which is helpful, but actually being in the same room as people and being able to have that connection. My background is in politics, and I've worked on a number of campaigns. And, one of the things that kind of drives people in a campaign, and I think a lot of the work that folks do in an advocacy role is just that energy and that vibe.\n\nAnd so being able to have that energy in person at some of these events, I think really fuels me and fuels a lot of other people that are part of the network to be able to, connect and knowledge share, and actually have conversations that can last over breakfast and lunch and dinner. And so really being able to have that human connection is something that I think we're doing a little bit better on being able to get people in the same room and and get people, together in person. And so that's something that I think really developed last year, and I'm looking forward to continuing to see that develop.\n\nSpeaker 2: So, I mean, I'll share mine. I'll just say, since I'm not being paid for code by code for America, I'll just say also I totally agree. And I like, especially summit to me feels like such a rare opportunity to get so many different, like, people from digital service teams and brigades and, from across the country in one place. These are folks I often talk to frequently online and you can kind of get used to pretending that that's, keeping your relationship going and connecting, but that kind of in person chance to meet them and get introduced to their friends is really so valuable, I think. But I was gonna say for me, mine is less uplifting, but maybe maybe I can turn it around.\n\nBut I mean, I think one of the biggest things that's impacted everyone over the past couple years has been me too. And I've been thinking a lot about how we become better allies. It's always a process, not a destination. And, you know, especially, I think even the sort of tech movement, you know, is certainly not, excused from any of that. And we noticed, like, a big, article come out with Clay Johnson last year that he had been heavily involved in a lot of big civic tech organizations.\n\nAnd there were one of the things I found most frustrating about it were the people who kept saying, I am so shocked and appalled by this. I'm so stunned and shocked because, if you had been paying attention or asking or checking in, and this is widely known by a lot of people in civic tech. And, and so I think a couple things that I often recommend to people when they're trying to become better allies is, first asking more questions. If someone seems like they might be a jerk to some people, that's usually a sign that they're even worse when you're not looking especially if, you're in a position of power in some capacity and I find that these folks are often treating more marginalized or less powerful people worse and So that should always be your trigger to check and ask more and the more power and security you have in your role or in your community the more responsibility you have there and that goes the same with sharing stories, right? The more power and responsibility and security you have the more you can you should be sharing your stories about what you experience.\n\nPeople will start hearing patterns, and that's really been, I think, part of the biggest strength of me too. I would say also, you know, if if you are in a position of privilege, it's more your responsibility to talk to other people with similar privilege and remind them certain things or push back on them in certain ways. Multiple studies have shown that people respond better and are more open to that feedback when it's coming from someone like them, which is frustrating but very true. If you see someone being attacked or harassed or they seem really uncomfortable in a conversation talk to them only. Ask if they're okay, if they could use any help giving you a safer space.\n\nJust asking questions, and and listening to them is really important. Respecting people's pronouns, sharing yours is a signal that it's acceptable and encouraged just to to clarify pronouns at the beginning of meetings. And then the, you know, the biggest thing that, is hard, but, gets a lot easier with practice, I swear, is, if someone corrects you or if you go overstep somehow and they push back on you, first remember that they're a compliment. We don't do that to people that we don't think care. So just really remember, like, if someone was correcting you or pointing out something you did wrong, like, they think that you're fixable and and open to feedback.\n\nAnd so, don't make a big deal of that of it. Apologize quickly, maybe. Say thank you. Correct it. Move on.\n\nAnd that's really the best way to respond to that and show that you care and are open to improving. And that's all we're looking for because nobody is perfect. And like what I said at the beginning, like, it's always a process. It's not a destination to become an ally. And then for the love of God, please stop announcing your privilege when you first start talking.\n\nIf I hear one more person stand up and say as a white man, I believe X. I just, I can't take it anymore. Just that I'm not interested. Like if you have an important point to make, make it, but you're gonna need to take up space by announcing and reminding everyone how much privilege you have.\n\nSpeaker 1: I'm glad that you you highlighted the me too movement in civic tech this year. And, I just I mean, it it's just so important, for us to weave this into all of the work that we do. And this is something that, as just a human being and as a person caller and as a woman, and living at different areas of intersectionality, it's it's been very inspiring to see the focus and attention, on inclusivity and equity throughout the, the network over the last year. And I think at the at the beginning of the day, the most important thing is starting the conversation, right, which I think, was a lot of what your point was, Leah, that, that we have to start the conversation, and we can't get kind of tiptoey about it or, or get kind of in our own heads about what that conversation should look like or what that means. The fact that we're starting it is, the most important step, and then continuing it.\n\nSo I think that, we have made a point to try to highlight, this work in our in person events. So at summit last year at Brigade Day, we had a whole training day that was based on, inclusivity and equity, and we have intentionally chosen speakers, at our in person events. We have a DEI consultant here at Code for America. We are in the middle of doing a brigade census to see, where our network is and be able to, make sure that we can accurately set goals, because you don't can't set a goal if you don't know where you're starting from. So, I think this is something that kind of goes into the personal and the professional area, and it's kind of a gray line.\n\nAnd, I think that's just the reality of what it is, but it's important for us to recognize this on a personal and professional level, given that it impacts every one of us so heavily. So, yeah, thank you for lifting that up.\n\nSpeaker 0: One thing that comes to mind hearing you both talk is that I I imagine, like, folks like, even even in these conversations, you both kind of come at it from different organizations, different places. Right? If there are folks out there that are in places that maybe aren't quite so far along the line of progress to being, like, as an organization, a good ally, are there things that you would suggest they do as being, like, a member of that organization to try to do, like, what you two are doing here and kind of, like, lifting this up as something that's important?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'd say advocating for stuff, ahead of time before it becomes a problem, you know, like, like, even if you don't need a gender neutral bathroom, like, if there isn't one in your organization, ask for it. Like, nothing ever happened, you know things barely even just asking for it starts creating that conversation or starts, you know, if maybe one or two other people did it too like you would start noticing a little bit more push and just the more you can speak up and the more you can really message people if you don't feel publicly saying it publicly, but if you don't feel comfortable saying it publicly but you know if someone stood up and said something or requested it like the more you can do to echo people's voices, especially if you don't think that they're being listened to and, you know, asking more questions, pushing more on this stuff. Veronica, y'all have some pretty good guides and stuff for the brigades. Right?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So, so in terms of, our code of conduct, we, enforce really strongly. That's the kind of one way that we're able to, at least attempt to create a safe and inclusive environment. And then, of course, we have had, in person trainings as well. And we're currently doing more work to ensure Really Code for America.\n\nOne of our goals is to be a leader in diversity, equity, and inclusion in the tech space, which is why we are taking several different measures, in order to do this, including the census, but we also did internal, census and survey of staff. And we're coming out with a diversity and equity and inclusion report, for the organization as well as setting, some goal very clear goals to ensure that we're not only, trying to be at the national curve, but ahead of the national curve in terms of, diversity, equity, and inclusion. So, yeah, I I would also say in terms of folks that may be in areas where they don't feel that, their voices as supported or that they might not have, a a lot of allies in the either geographical or, just situational spaces that they're in. I would also say that it's just really important to kind of protect yourself and, and protect your own personal space. It can be difficult to sometimes always be the advocate, for something.\n\nAnd so while it's important to feel empowered to lift up your voice, also ensure that you're taking care of yourself, and putting yourself in a in a space where, you feel safe. And so that can take many different forms, but making sure to keep that self care component, in there as well.\n\nSpeaker 2: You're a great one. A a couple of podcasts I recommend. I think, being able to, like, you know, listen in to some other communities and and listen to what they're talking about and pick up on the the way they describe Certain different kinds of marginalization or experience. They're really experiences, that people are going through Is is one of the biggest ways that I have learned more. I'd say I recommend pod save the people de ray mckesson is really a great leader on that.\n\nHe's got an amazing book out. I highly recommend. Made of human by sophie hagan is a really good one. And oh, you know, I'm a huge fan of queer eye on Netflix. You speak queer eye for the straight guy and yeah, no, it's changed and they they also kind of address, in a fun way a lot of the common, like, misconceptions and, terminology and thoughts on, not just queer stuff, but also gender.\n\nI mean, there's obviously a lot of overlap, but, there's great stuff there.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank thank you both for being willing to share advice on that topic. I I think folks out there will get a a lot of value out of hearing that, and, hopefully, they'll they'll learn something and maybe something that they can use to take action. Next, I guess, it's time to be to ask for volunteer again, see if we can get a new item to start talking about.\n\nSpeaker 2: Well, Ron, if you keep going first in volunteering, I appreciate it, but I'll take it take it this time. My second big thing, is about, really leaning into, end to end design processes more. You know, we say civic tech a lot is a way to describe our community, but I think, no. You you're not a digital service team if you don't have service designers. And, these are experienced designers working on understanding, not just, you know, does the form make sense when someone fills it out, but, what's the process someone goes through from starting?\n\nEmbarking on a journey to try to get a benefit or or interact with the government when they're required to To the end when they're considered, you know when they consider they've got the benefit and keep pushing out on the ends of those, of that kind of journey to understand more about what we're doing and, you know, where certain steps could be skipped or made a lot simpler for people. I think, this a lot of what's really pushing this movement forward is the way that we're empowering the people affected by the work that we do or affected by interactions with government, speak about their experiences and really be heard and and listened to and have their experiences inform what we what we do and how we change it. And I think that is gonna have an increasing effect. And I've been really excited to see how it works. Especially at the state and local level.\n\nI think, like at the VA I've really watched and really been changed by watching how many billions and billions of dollars we put into building or failing to build tech to, informs that we then you know, I spend billions of dollars adjudicating and going through and and processing and you know that ends up putting a lot of government employees in an adversarial relationship with the people who are applying for benefits instead of helping them get what they need, which from my experience is what most people would rather be doing, if they went into government. And so I'm excited to see how that keeps pushing and, you know, how the movement starts pushing for, you know, baseline needs for people and and and giving people the basic human rights like health care and, food access and, improving reentry processes from the criminal justice system so that, we can really start focusing on people's needs and not, you know, efficiency or making a a prettier form.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I love that. I wanna highlight what Leah was saying because that, ties into the second area that I wanted to talk about as well. But, to stay here for a second and really talk about work that we're doing that is impact for the communities in which we're looking to work with and in which we look to serve, I think is incredibly important, and being able to actually work on projects. At Code for America, one of the things that we talk about a lot, specifically in the work that we're doing in the community fellowship, is in work that affects vulnerable populations, because I think that's really the direction that civic tech is going in.\n\nAnd so, not just as as Leah said, making something prettier and not just the usability of it from an ease standpoint, but also from an impact standpoint is something that we're really focusing on and one of the reasons why I feel very proud to be a part of the network and the and the work that we're doing in Civic Tech. For the second area that I had wanted to highlight, four things that have gone well, that kind of goes into coordination with that. So a lot of brigades have done a lot of work in working with partner organizations in their communities, and working with organizations that might specialize in an area that the brigade would like to work in but may not necessarily have experience in themselves. So a couple of partnerships, that fall into this category are, in Asheville. They did a lot of work with Beloved Asheville, which is an organization that works, with the homeless and the community in Asheville.\n\nIn Nashville, they worked on a really interesting project with the legal city hackers, in order to help families appoint a power of attorney in the case of deportation, for parents. And they're just all throughout the brigade network are brigades working on different projects with various organizations that may not be the specialty or work experience of the folks that are part of the brigade, but they want to have an impact in an area and so have, sought out relationships, with various organizations that work in those areas. And so being able to actually say, hey. I wanna work on something, but I'm not necessarily the best person to say what the needs are of a certain community or, identify, exactly everything that's going on in somebody's experience. And working with an organization that does specifically focus on that, I think there's a real strength that comes from that, and I think that's really where a lot of our power is is in being able to bring the skills that we do have to other people who have, experience in various areas that we're looking to focus in.\n\nSo I I'm really excited about this partnership aspect, that a lot of work is being done in and, has been highlighted throughout the year.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I just I just saw, y'all announced they're partnering with what is it? San Jose to do more, record expungement work?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So in Los Angeles, we're doing a partnership in Los Angeles. That was announced yesterday. And I think there's potential for up to, 50,000 people to be affected, by the rec the record clearance measures. So it's really exciting work and building off of the work that we've done in San Francisco.\n\nAnd what's also really exciting is brigades are, getting into the, auto expungement area as well. So for example, in Portland, they're working, with their local DA's office to work on auto expungement, as part of the brigade. So there's lots of work happening in the, expungement area in particular, where we can have a real impact, and that's really exciting.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. And to me, that every time I see that that program move forward, I just I get goosebumps. I'm so excited about it. And it's such a perfect example to me of, like, addressing the needs of some of our most vulnerable communities and just fixing it for them, you know, in a way that doesn't force them to go through more forms or processes or systems, that are make things more difficult every time.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I agree. But I think that also highlights the the need for, people on on the inside, like you, Leah, and your colleagues who are able to push this forward from the inside as well. Because outside organization can only do so much. So definitely making an impact in this one specific area, but being able to have talent within government agencies at all levels, is is really where we'll, I think, have the most lasting change.\n\nSpeaker 2: That's a good point. And I should also just mention we're hiring at USDS at usds.gov/apply. They just changed it, I think. But they just launched a new website. And so we've got a lot more about what we're working on.\n\nAnd I mean, it's certainly one of the hardest times to be working in the federal government right now, but also, there's so few people that you if you are tough enough, you can have more of an impact now. So my DMs are open on Twitter. Let me know. We need more people.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oh, and I'll, make sure that the the link that you mentioned there is in the episode description as well. A a threat I think I was hearing from, like, both of what you're saying that kinda connects together is that, Leah, I think I heard from you this idea of, like, trying to move past, like, things that are maybe, like, actions that are, like, a paper over of of something that's bad, like a prettier form, for instance. And, Veronica, I think I heard from you, like, something maybe connects with that, this idea of, like, trying to partner, like, the right expertise to the right thing. Am I hearing that like, is there a connection there? Like, what what do you folks see as, like, being the, like, critical thing to getting past the, like, pre your form as it's been put a couple of times to something that's more of like a concrete type of solution for folks.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is about, really leaning into that user experience and gaining strength from, even if you're not it's not your job to be interviewing users sitting in on, user experience testing sessions. I draw a lot of strength in fighting for veterans by listening to, listening in on the hearings that they go through or, sitting and watching them go through forms and, their reactions to how this is more respectful or, important. And I think that continues to help push me towards fighting for, what is really the problem. Like, every time there's you know, it's very tempting in our community and in tech in general to jump to solutions before really diagnosing what the problem is and what the people really need help with or or or really struggling with.\n\nAnd I it's it makes it a little bit harder. It's they're definitely difficult. You need some time afterwards, sometimes after listening to these interview sessions, but, focusing more and more on what they need and setting metrics around getting people something they really need as opposed to efficiency or, you know, making it a better app so they can, do it themselves. You know, like, there's a lot of bad development or, new applications that could be built if you you're only focusing on improving efficiency. Whereas if you keep remembering who's using your service and what they really need, you can set better metrics and goals for your team based on really helping them.\n\nSpeaker 1: I agree with that, so much. I think one of the things that I think about too is is just realizing that we don't always have all of the answers. I think especially, being empowered to, be in a in a technology role. I'm not a technologist myself, but even thinking about, like, some of the the basic ways that, you know, I might be more technologically advanced than somebody else. Sometimes I think that we believe that since we have these technological skills, therefore, we can come in and just provide a a quick answer to what somebody else is experiencing and really kind of sitting back and being able to humble ourselves and say, hey.\n\nYou know, actually, I might have some skills that are useful here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have, the full answer. And so being able to take a back seat to somebody else that has a lot more experience in these areas that we're working in. And being able to help where needed and also take a step back, where it's not our place to necessarily step up is really important.\n\nSpeaker 2: I think something I'm really noticing in, civic tech, especially across the digital service teams across the country, is after the first few years of developing one of these teams, you know, there's usually some early quick wins or or big problematic fires that you have a lot of, support from leadership to resolve. But after a few years, you know, we make it look easy. Right? Like good design makes it look easy. And, you know, and we we know in truth it's the opposite, but that's often difficult for leadership to keep in mind when this team seems to keep doing good work and, delivering.\n\nAnd so I see a lot of leadership kind of trying to, like, spread the team out across a ton more projects without really enabling, supporting them to grow, giving them the support and protection they need to keep pushing and asking the tough questions because so much of the really big wins in government come from having the the support and power to to go across several different teams or agencies within an organization and track down the real user experience from end to end. And oftentimes that means asking some of the tougher questions or or getting people to trust you, and and tell you more about what the process is like and what's wrong. And you need a lot more leadership support and protection to be able to keep doing that and keep pushing on that. And so I don't know. It's tough.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I I, I second that as well, just in terms of the fact that leadership is so important, and I think that extends to lots of different, avenues and areas. But, being able to have somebody, you know, what would be considered the top of any kind of organizational structure that you're in to be able to, go to bat for the things that you really need to do in order to make your job successful for the people that we're looking to serve is is something that's critical. And a lot of people don't have support in the roles that they're in, whether that's in their day job or whether that's in the outside work that they're doing, in all different facets. So I think that kind of comes back to the conversation we were having earlier in terms of, speaking up.\n\nAnd so I think it's important for leadership in every, aspect to be able to speak up as well on behalf of the folks that are working every day to make things better.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a really great point is continuing to remember how much harder it is when you don't have a great manager. You don't have a great support. I think use learning more about service design and user experience has really helped me start seeing more of these things as You know, when a team's not succeeding or something It's more about I'm more inclined to start asking What are the structures in place that are? Supporting or preventing them from succeeding and what kind of leadership did they have and how much are they allowed to voice and talk about problems or things that aren't working and the more we can provide that support for projects that we work on, but also continue to work towards improving, the job experience of civil servants is a crucial component of the work we're doing if we wanna make lasting change.\n\nSpeaker 0: So now that we've talked about, some items either went well or or didn't go well over the past year, I'd like to shift us a little bit into talking about the current year. And, to kinda support that, I came up with, like, a couple of questions that maybe we could explore a little bit. And one of those is sometimes folks will say that this is the year of the something. If you were to deposit something like that for civic tech in 2019, what would that be? And, Leah, would you like to kick us off with that?\n\nSpeaker 2: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think what I'm especially hoping for from this year is, more reflection on our own models and our own systems and what enables a digital service team or a brigade or, anyone in government to succeed and really using more of the tools that we know work to solve and figure out these challenges, like design, user experience testing, to, to take a look back at, at what's, what are these teams struggling with across the country? What, what are they, what is making their jobs harder? And and how you know, and and especially even on just an individual level on your own team, you know, if if something's really not working or there's a process that's especially difficult, you know, like taking a couple weeks off from project work to reexamine what's working on your own team and and use keep remembering to keep using the tools that we know work on ourselves as well.\n\nSpeaker 0: And, Veronica, what what would that be for you?\n\nSpeaker 1: I said that I'd love for this to be the year of empowerment. So something that I hope, to do in my role is is help empower other people to do the great work that they're doing. And so that's what I would I would love for people to feel. I hope that people feel empowered to do the work that they're doing. We, one of the parts of my job that I really enjoy is I get to talk to people that are interested in possibly starting, a brigade in in various places around the country that don't have brigades already.\n\nAnd, and just to be able to hear the excitement that folks have to possibly bring a brigade, and more so just kind of an arm of civic tech into their communities is really exciting. And there are obviously, amazing leaders in our communities that already exist that are doing great work. So my goal is just for folks to feel empowered to either start, doing work in the civic tech community or continue to do the work that they're doing, and feel that they have the support behind them to do so, both in a tangible way, but also just in a, hey. You're doing a great job. We recognize that this is hard work, and you're you're doing a lot of this in your spare time for free for the benefit of your community, and basically having a cheerleader to do that.\n\nSo that's what my goal would be is is for folks to feel empowered in the work that they're doing.\n\nSpeaker 2: I love that. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about how the past couple years have pushed a lot of people, I think, to look more into their communities and, and build more community of, of, and build more strength from the people around them and the people that they want to uplift. And I think you know, some a lot of this work may not have gotten done or been done had the election gone a different way and I think for a lot of people in the country in this country Things would be just as bad Had the election gone a better way. So, who like, you know, who's really struggling in our communities? And how are we helping them?\n\nAnd and how are we reaching out to them more and realizing that we can't always trust a lot of the institutions and systems that we Thought were more trustworthy a few years ago and and now That we've been doing that work over the past couple years How are we activating that and pushing for more like Veronica was just saying and then empowering each other to to build on that people power and, make better change for our communities?\n\nSpeaker 1: So a lot of conversations I have with people, they say that in particular, the the political climate has, has launched them to want to explore, doing good in their communities, which is why they're looking into starting a brigade. And so I think that, you know, at at the end of the day, a lot of, excitement in communities is based off of the political climate, and I think it goes both ways. Like, the Tea Party, got its foundation and and rev up from, president Obama being in office. And, now we have a very strong progressive movement, that has swung the other way given the, the national politics that we're experiencing. But I will say that, at least in the civic tech community, I've, in my role, been able to see a lot of, folks doing a lot of great things in their community, based off of their feeling of wanting to, do good in their communities, which I think is great.\n\nSo, I I definitely feel that the empowerment piece is is there on a certain level, and then being able to, hone that and and lift that up is something that I'm really excited to be a part of.\n\nSpeaker 0: Before we draw our conversation to a close here, is there anything, you'd like to pull out from our conversation or pull in separately that you'd like to have the listener be thinking about as they stop listening to this program?\n\nSpeaker 1: I guess the the one thing that I'd say is that the thing that I'm just most excited about, and, hopefully, everybody takes just a minute to think about the the people that we get to work with in this space. I mean, the work wouldn't be what it is without the relationships that we get to form and the people that we get to work with even being on this, you know, podcast with both of you. It's just really cool to be able to, interact with other folks that are working so hard in order to make our communities and our country a better place, and that's a really special, identity to have, because a lot of people don't have that. They don't have that sense of community or or an outlet for the, for what they'd like to see in their communities. So I think that the people aspect is really cool, and I hope that everybody, that's listening to this, you probably are somehow in civic tech if you're listening to this and, just kind of give yourself a pat on the back and appreciate the other people that are around you, because it's really special to have have a community.\n\nSpeaker 2: That's wonderful. I I think that made me that reminded me that I was thinking a lot about how, like, as any great movement, we often disagree or, we think that folks should be doing something differently or, we think that there might be a better way and I think starting with questions and because as veronica said, that's such a I mean, it's such a good point like the people who are working in this are amazing and amongst the best people you know, smartest, biggest hearts. Like it's I feel very lucky that I'm alive in the face of this while this movement is growing and, alive. And I think, starting with questions when you disagree with something an organization is doing or, you know, I'm really remembering, that not everyone in the organization may agree or and definitely not everyone's responsible for a certain initiative or a certain approach or a certain plan and, without knowing the structures that they're facing or the challenges that they're facing it's really hard to judge from the outside what what they're up against and so, reaching out and asking questions and you know, always nudging always pushing. It's good.\n\nBut Or should I say and remembering to be empathetic to folks who are working on things in different structures different power structures and Supporting them and you know, you may even be giving them and empowering them by asking certain questions or pushing on different things but if you do it in a way that you're attacking them or really negative that that just makes things more difficult for everyone. So I'm always trying to find the balance and and figure out how to push more in certain ways while, maintaining empathy and relationships and support for everyone involved.\n\nSpeaker 0: Leah, veronica, I wanna thank both of you again for taking the time to come on and have this conversation. I think it's really important to now and again take the time to reflect what we observe, what we see, what, like, what's going on in the space around us. And I think you've given folks a lot of value in what you've said today and, something that's probably also very relatable for folks out there. So again, thank you both for for taking the time.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thanks so much, Ryan.\n\nSpeaker 0: You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civictechchat, visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.71999997, "end": 1.22 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement.", "start": 1.5999999, "end": 7.54 }, { "text": "We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere.", "start": 7.8399997, "end": 13.94 }, { "text": "Welcome back to another episode of Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 15.145, "end": 18.445 }, { "text": "You might or might not be aware of the fact that a couple months ago, this program turned one year old.", "start": 19.145, "end": 25.564999 } ], "start": 0.71999997, "end": 25.564999, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So as a result, we've been in a little bit of a reflective mood.", "start": 25.785, "end": 29.244999 }, { "text": "And to that end, we thought it might be interesting to have something akin to a retro discussion.", "start": 29.96, "end": 34.54 }, { "text": "So for this episode, we'll be joined by Leah Bannon, a Product Manager with United States Digital Service, and Veronica Young, program manager with Code for America.", "start": 34.92, "end": 46.065 }, { "text": "Each of them will bring you a unique perspective to a conversation about things that went well, things that didn't go well, and a whole bunch of lessons learned along the way over the past year.", "start": 46.605, "end": 57.905 }, { "text": "So with all that said, let's go ahead and hop into this discussion.", "start": 58.260002, "end": 61.8 } ], "start": 25.785, "end": 61.8, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Veronica, Leah, thank you both for coming on Civic Tech Chat today.", "start": 63.7, "end": 67.88 }, { "text": "Could each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about what you do?", "start": 68.020004, "end": 72.2 } ], "start": 63.7, "end": 72.2, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 73.325, "end": 73.725 }, { "text": "Hi.", "start": 73.725, "end": 74.125 }, { "text": "I'm my name is Veronica Young, and I'm one of the program managers here on the network team at Code for America.", "start": 74.525, "end": 80.705 }, { "text": "My background is in political and community organizing, and I've been really excited for the last year and a half to bring some of those skills and background to, the brigade network at Code for America.", "start": 81.244995, "end": 94.200005 } ], "start": 73.325, "end": 94.200005, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I'm Leah Bannon.", "start": 94.82, "end": 96.42 }, { "text": "I'm a product manager at the United States Digital Service.", "start": 96.42, "end": 99.64 }, { "text": "I'm currently based at the VA.", "start": 99.78, "end": 101.835 }, { "text": "And before that, I was at ATNA for four years.", "start": 102.134995, "end": 105.41499 }, { "text": "I worked primarily on the Federal Election Commission and FOIA projects.", "start": 105.41499, "end": 109.19499 } ], "start": 94.82, "end": 109.19499, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And before that, I was a a cook for DC brigade captain.", "start": 109.814995, "end": 113.93 }, { "text": "So I know Veronica a little bit from some of that overlap.", "start": 113.99, "end": 117.13 } ], "start": 109.814995, "end": 117.13, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Awesome.", "start": 117.67, "end": 117.99 }, { "text": "Thank you both for sharing that.", "start": 117.99, "end": 119.27 }, { "text": "I I think based on your backgrounds, we're gonna have, like, a a really interesting conversation here.", "start": 119.27, "end": 123.61 }, { "text": "And to hop us right into that, I'd like to start us off with a kind of intro reflection questions perhaps to warm us up, to ask each of you what a priority you successfully gave intention to was, and what's one that you neglected over the past year.", "start": 123.75, "end": 139.02 }, { "text": "And, Veronica, would you like to start us off with this one?", "start": 139.02, "end": 142.0 } ], "start": 117.67, "end": 142.0, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 142.7, "end": 143.18001 }, { "text": "So something that I give a lot of priority to, is really trying to use my role to be able to be a platform for the work that other people are doing.", "start": 143.58, "end": 155.13501 }, { "text": "And so something that I really tried to work on in this last year was making sure to, source a lot of folks' interests and, what they were looking to do and then, hoping to apply that to, the actual work that we did or the events that we had.", "start": 155.755, "end": 176.39 }, { "text": "So an example for this would be, we held our second Brigade Congress last year, in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we had an advisory committee for the content for, for that Congress.", "start": 176.39, "end": 190.835 }, { "text": "And so being able to lift up what the committee's interests were, who were getting information and ideas from other people.", "start": 190.835, "end": 200.15001 } ], "start": 142.7, "end": 200.15001, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's kind of a step by step, lifting up process to ensure that or hope to ensure that, folks' voices are being listened to and that the content that was provided was something that was helpful and useful, for everybody that was attending.", "start": 200.15001, "end": 216.70499 }, { "text": "So that's something that I really enjoyed doing.", "start": 217.165, "end": 219.50499 }, { "text": "In terms of neglection, I'd say that last year was a little bit of a difficult year because it felt like we were always trying to catch up to whatever the event was or whatever the moment was.", "start": 220.92499, "end": 234.21999 }, { "text": "And, I think something we've been able to do a little bit better this year, starting at the end of last year, is do some real intentional forward planning, and some that's something that we're going to continue to do with the network.", "start": 234.59999, "end": 247.535 }, { "text": "But, last year, there was a lot of playing catch up, and this year, we're trying to, do some really hard intentional planning for the year and then the years to come.", "start": 247.535, "end": 257.35 } ], "start": 200.15001, "end": 257.35, "num_words": 165.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's so interesting.", "start": 257.49, "end": 258.47 }, { "text": "I, for for me, my answers are pretty similar.", "start": 258.53, "end": 261.25 }, { "text": "I think, I for the priority, I gave a lot of attention to, I I had a pretty serious surgery last summer, and that really forced me to kind of stop in my tracks and a lot of things that I was pushing way too hard on and, kinda reflect on some of that thing and, like, push myself to better understand what I was good at and where I can provide the most benefit.", "start": 261.25, "end": 285.44 }, { "text": "And, also, kind of a couple years after leaving DC, I mean, when I was in DC at the time, I had, done a lot of work with the code for DC brigade and also some community organizing to improve the face of civic tech or just tech in DC around, Tech Lady Hackathon, which we changed to Tech Rebalance the training days and and and doing a lot of encouraging work to get more folks into the community.", "start": 285.44, "end": 310.69 }, { "text": "But that kind of put me in a point where I was well known for a lot of things in that area and didn't know how to handle all the onslaught of requests for, support or advice or, showing up to things and, getting kind of burned out.", "start": 311.15, "end": 328.66498 } ], "start": 257.49, "end": 328.66498, "num_words": 214.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And when I had my surgery and stuff, that really, like, pushed me again to kinda reassess and figure out, what I was missing from not from kinda stepping outside of that community organizing work and what I really needed to spend more time focusing on versus what felt more like urgent or pressing at the moment.", "start": 328.66498, "end": 348.185 }, { "text": "And so I did a lot of work to, like, build up platforms or or connections and stuff to put more people in contact with each other so that I was less of the bottleneck and trying to get back to what I'm good at which is really remembering who's good at what and who's who's interested in what and promoting more people into more roles that so that they could kind of build out more communities in in that way.", "start": 349.125, "end": 374.61502 }, { "text": "And the thing I neglected I mean, it's kind of the same thing in a way because I was really kind of neglecting my own, like, need for that community, and need for being a part of that civic tech space.", "start": 374.61502, "end": 389.73 }, { "text": "And, I'd kind of retreated a bit, I felt like.", "start": 389.73, "end": 393.16998 }, { "text": "And so, like, kind of reassessing what about it empowered me and pushed me and made me happier and filled me out more versus what just totally drained me.", "start": 393.16998, "end": 402.95 } ], "start": 328.66498, "end": 402.95, "num_words": 218.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm still figuring that out, definitely.", "start": 403.26498, "end": 404.965 }, { "text": "Still traveling too much and neglecting some personal care probably, but, otherwise, happier, generally.", "start": 406.145, "end": 412.485 } ], "start": 403.26498, "end": 412.485, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 413.505, "end": 413.665 }, { "text": "The this sort of thing is, definitely a process.", "start": 413.665, "end": 416.065 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 416.065, "end": 416.305 }, { "text": "There's always that I think the thing that ends up being neglected that we learn from.", "start": 416.305, "end": 420.65002 }, { "text": "And with, that bit of reflection kind of done, and we kinda have that kind of basis to to to move on with, I'd like to get us into, I guess, like, the main idea of of this episode, which is to kind of talk through some items that each of you have thought of are are like, things that either went well in Civic Tech for the past year or didn't go well.", "start": 420.71002, "end": 440.845 } ], "start": 413.505, "end": 440.845, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And one thing that's gonna be really fun for me with this, and I'm excited, is that I have no idea what any of these items are.", "start": 441.14502, "end": 447.02 }, { "text": "So I get to go along this ride with the listener.", "start": 447.02, "end": 449.28 }, { "text": "I guess, like, let's go ahead and start that off.", "start": 449.74, "end": 451.98 }, { "text": "And, the idea of this, of course, it's, like, kinda like a top two, for each of you.", "start": 451.98, "end": 456.4 }, { "text": "And I guess I'll be looking for a volunteer here who would like to get us started with the first item.", "start": 456.63498, "end": 462.095 } ], "start": 441.14502, "end": 462.095, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I can get started.", "start": 462.63498, "end": 463.775 }, { "text": "And I will also just be very transparent about the fact that my, kind of experience is very much in the kind of Code for America sphere.", "start": 465.35498, "end": 476.26 }, { "text": "So, when I'm talking about things that I see as a win in civic tech, most of this is Code for America based, but I think, in some ways extends to the broader community.", "start": 476.4, "end": 487.325 }, { "text": "But something that I really enjoyed and I think, was able to kind of bring people together were some of the in person opportunities that we had to connect this last year.", "start": 488.58502, "end": 500.87 }, { "text": "As I was mentioning earlier, a lot of times folks are, very much kind of in in silos where they are geographically, and it's difficult to necessarily have that connection.", "start": 501.88998, "end": 513.525 } ], "start": 462.63498, "end": 513.525, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so a couple of events that I was able to attend, were the Code for America Summit and Brigade Congress, which are both events put on by Code for America.", "start": 514.145, "end": 525.605 }, { "text": "And I was able to have some, planning roles in both of those events.", "start": 527.54, "end": 532.36 }, { "text": "And it was just really, really nice to actually be at those events and meet people in person and have those human connections, because so much of what we do, especially in a distributed model, is by computer or over chat, even over video, which is helpful, but actually being in the same room as people and being able to have that connection.", "start": 532.82, "end": 555.77496 }, { "text": "My background is in politics, and I've worked on a number of campaigns.", "start": 557.02997, "end": 560.81 }, { "text": "And, one of the things that kind of drives people in a campaign, and I think a lot of the work that folks do in an advocacy role is just that energy and that vibe.", "start": 561.58997, "end": 572.70496 } ], "start": 514.145, "end": 572.70496, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so being able to have that energy in person at some of these events, I think really fuels me and fuels a lot of other people that are part of the network to be able to, connect and knowledge share, and actually have conversations that can last over breakfast and lunch and dinner.", "start": 573.32495, "end": 595.42 }, { "text": "And so really being able to have that human connection is something that I think we're doing a little bit better on being able to get people in the same room and and get people, together in person.", "start": 595.95996, "end": 606.67505 }, { "text": "And so that's something that I think really developed last year, and I'm looking forward to continuing to see that develop.", "start": 606.67505, "end": 612.935 } ], "start": 573.32495, "end": 612.935, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, I mean, I'll share mine.", "start": 613.81, "end": 615.65 }, { "text": "I'll just say, since I'm not being paid for code by code for America, I'll just say also I totally agree.", "start": 615.65, "end": 621.17004 }, { "text": "And I like, especially summit to me feels like such a rare opportunity to get so many different, like, people from digital service teams and brigades and, from across the country in one place.", "start": 621.17004, "end": 631.665 }, { "text": "These are folks I often talk to frequently online and you can kind of get used to pretending that that's, keeping your relationship going and connecting, but that kind of in person chance to meet them and get introduced to their friends is really so valuable, I think.", "start": 631.665, "end": 647.94 }, { "text": "But I was gonna say for me, mine is less uplifting, but maybe maybe I can turn it around.", "start": 648.72, "end": 654.24 } ], "start": 613.81, "end": 654.24, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I mean, I think one of the biggest things that's impacted everyone over the past couple years has been me too.", "start": 654.24, "end": 660.765 }, { "text": "And I've been thinking a lot about how we become better allies.", "start": 660.765, "end": 665.025 }, { "text": "It's always a process, not a destination.", "start": 665.16504, "end": 667.585 }, { "text": "And, you know, especially, I think even the sort of tech movement, you know, is certainly not, excused from any of that.", "start": 668.28503, "end": 676.69995 }, { "text": "And we noticed, like, a big, article come out with Clay Johnson last year that he had been heavily involved in a lot of big civic tech organizations.", "start": 676.69995, "end": 684.56 } ], "start": 654.24, "end": 684.56, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And there were one of the things I found most frustrating about it were the people who kept saying, I am so shocked and appalled by this.", "start": 685.96497, "end": 692.605 }, { "text": "I'm so stunned and shocked because, if you had been paying attention or asking or checking in, and this is widely known by a lot of people in civic tech.", "start": 692.605, "end": 701.57 }, { "text": "And, and so I think a couple things that I often recommend to people when they're trying to become better allies is, first asking more questions.", "start": 701.57, "end": 711.02997 }, { "text": "If someone seems like they might be a jerk to some people, that's usually a sign that they're even worse when you're not looking especially if, you're in a position of power in some capacity and I find that these folks are often treating more marginalized or less powerful people worse and So that should always be your trigger to check and ask more and the more power and security you have in your role or in your community the more responsibility you have there and that goes the same with sharing stories, right?", "start": 711.49, "end": 742.04004 }, { "text": "The more power and responsibility and security you have the more you can you should be sharing your stories about what you experience.", "start": 742.04004, "end": 749.635 } ], "start": 685.96497, "end": 749.635, "num_words": 200.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "People will start hearing patterns, and that's really been, I think, part of the biggest strength of me too.", "start": 749.855, "end": 755.395 }, { "text": "I would say also, you know, if if you are in a position of privilege, it's more your responsibility to talk to other people with similar privilege and remind them certain things or push back on them in certain ways.", "start": 755.615, "end": 767.66 }, { "text": "Multiple studies have shown that people respond better and are more open to that feedback when it's coming from someone like them, which is frustrating but very true.", "start": 768.68, "end": 777.09503 }, { "text": "If you see someone being attacked or harassed or they seem really uncomfortable in a conversation talk to them only.", "start": 778.915, "end": 786.23004 }, { "text": "Ask if they're okay, if they could use any help giving you a safer space.", "start": 786.77, "end": 790.15 } ], "start": 749.855, "end": 790.15, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Just asking questions, and and listening to them is really important.", "start": 790.61005, "end": 795.51 }, { "text": "Respecting people's pronouns, sharing yours is a signal that it's acceptable and encouraged just to to clarify pronouns at the beginning of meetings.", "start": 795.97003, "end": 804.27496 }, { "text": "And then the, you know, the biggest thing that, is hard, but, gets a lot easier with practice, I swear, is, if someone corrects you or if you go overstep somehow and they push back on you, first remember that they're a compliment.", "start": 805.21497, "end": 819.02997 }, { "text": "We don't do that to people that we don't think care.", "start": 819.33, "end": 821.67 }, { "text": "So just really remember, like, if someone was correcting you or pointing out something you did wrong, like, they think that you're fixable and and open to feedback.", "start": 821.81, "end": 829.97504 } ], "start": 790.61005, "end": 829.97504, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so, don't make a big deal of that of it.", "start": 829.97504, "end": 833.275 }, { "text": "Apologize quickly, maybe.", "start": 833.335, "end": 834.935 }, { "text": "Say thank you.", "start": 834.935, "end": 835.73505 }, { "text": "Correct it.", "start": 835.73505, "end": 836.29504 }, { "text": "Move on.", "start": 836.29504, "end": 837.015 } ], "start": 829.97504, "end": 837.015, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that's really the best way to respond to that and show that you care and are open to improving.", "start": 837.335, "end": 843.93 }, { "text": "And that's all we're looking for because nobody is perfect.", "start": 844.87, "end": 847.18994 }, { "text": "And like what I said at the beginning, like, it's always a process.", "start": 847.18994, "end": 850.06995 }, { "text": "It's not a destination to become an ally.", "start": 850.06995, "end": 852.41 }, { "text": "And then for the love of God, please stop announcing your privilege when you first start talking.", "start": 852.77496, "end": 856.855 } ], "start": 837.335, "end": 856.855, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If I hear one more person stand up and say as a white man, I believe X.", "start": 856.855, "end": 860.455 }, { "text": "I just, I can't take it anymore.", "start": 860.455, "end": 862.135 }, { "text": "Just that I'm not interested.", "start": 862.135, "end": 863.595 }, { "text": "Like if you have an important point to make, make it, but you're gonna need to take up space by announcing and reminding everyone how much privilege you have.", "start": 863.735, "end": 871.19995 } ], "start": 856.855, "end": 871.19995, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm glad that you you highlighted the me too movement in civic tech this year.", "start": 872.54, "end": 877.89996 }, { "text": "And, I just I mean, it it's just so important, for us to weave this into all of the work that we do.", "start": 877.89996, "end": 885.18506 }, { "text": "And this is something that, as just a human being and as a person caller and as a woman, and living at different areas of intersectionality, it's it's been very inspiring to see the focus and attention, on inclusivity and equity throughout the, the network over the last year.", "start": 886.28503, "end": 911.615 }, { "text": "And I think at the at the beginning of the day, the most important thing is starting the conversation, right, which I think, was a lot of what your point was, Leah, that, that we have to start the conversation, and we can't get kind of tiptoey about it or, or get kind of in our own heads about what that conversation should look like or what that means.", "start": 912.875, "end": 936.01 }, { "text": "The fact that we're starting it is, the most important step, and then continuing it.", "start": 936.445, "end": 942.045 } ], "start": 872.54, "end": 942.045, "num_words": 171.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think that, we have made a point to try to highlight, this work in our in person events.", "start": 942.045, "end": 953.39 }, { "text": "So at summit last year at Brigade Day, we had a whole training day that was based on, inclusivity and equity, and we have intentionally chosen speakers, at our in person events.", "start": 953.85, "end": 970.34503 }, { "text": "We have a DEI consultant here at Code for America.", "start": 971.28503, "end": 975.305 }, { "text": "We are in the middle of doing a brigade census to see, where our network is and be able to, make sure that we can accurately set goals, because you don't can't set a goal if you don't know where you're starting from.", "start": 976.18005, "end": 990.92004 }, { "text": "So, I think this is something that kind of goes into the personal and the professional area, and it's kind of a gray line.", "start": 991.905, "end": 1001.265 } ], "start": 942.045, "end": 1001.265, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, I think that's just the reality of what it is, but it's important for us to recognize this on a personal and professional level, given that it impacts every one of us so heavily.", "start": 1001.265, "end": 1012.82 }, { "text": "So, yeah, thank you for lifting that up.", "start": 1013.68, "end": 1015.84 } ], "start": 1001.265, "end": 1015.84, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One thing that comes to mind hearing you both talk is that I I imagine, like, folks like, even even in these conversations, you both kind of come at it from different organizations, different places.", "start": 1015.84, "end": 1026.185 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1026.245, "end": 1026.745 }, { "text": "If there are folks out there that are in places that maybe aren't quite so far along the line of progress to being, like, as an organization, a good ally, are there things that you would suggest they do as being, like, a member of that organization to try to do, like, what you two are doing here and kind of, like, lifting this up as something that's important?", "start": 1026.805, "end": 1045.55 } ], "start": 1015.84, "end": 1045.55, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1046.595, "end": 1046.835 }, { "text": "I mean, I'd say advocating for stuff, ahead of time before it becomes a problem, you know, like, like, even if you don't need a gender neutral bathroom, like, if there isn't one in your organization, ask for it.", "start": 1046.835, "end": 1060.515 }, { "text": "Like, nothing ever happened, you know things barely even just asking for it starts creating that conversation or starts, you know, if maybe one or two other people did it too like you would start noticing a little bit more push and just the more you can speak up and the more you can really message people if you don't feel publicly saying it publicly, but if you don't feel comfortable saying it publicly but you know if someone stood up and said something or requested it like the more you can do to echo people's voices, especially if you don't think that they're being listened to and, you know, asking more questions, pushing more on this stuff.", "start": 1060.515, "end": 1094.04 }, { "text": "Veronica, y'all have some pretty good guides and stuff for the brigades.", "start": 1094.5, "end": 1097.62 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1097.62, "end": 1098.12 } ], "start": 1046.595, "end": 1098.12, "num_words": 171.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1098.42, "end": 1098.9 }, { "text": "So, so in terms of, our code of conduct, we, enforce really strongly.", "start": 1098.9, "end": 1107.255 }, { "text": "That's the kind of one way that we're able to, at least attempt to create a safe and inclusive environment.", "start": 1107.875, "end": 1115.575 }, { "text": "And then, of course, we have had, in person trainings as well.", "start": 1116.4401, "end": 1120.78 }, { "text": "And we're currently doing more work to ensure Really Code for America.", "start": 1121.96, "end": 1127.42 } ], "start": 1098.42, "end": 1127.42, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One of our goals is to be a leader in diversity, equity, and inclusion in the tech space, which is why we are taking several different measures, in order to do this, including the census, but we also did internal, census and survey of staff.", "start": 1127.48, "end": 1147.91 }, { "text": "And we're coming out with a diversity and equity and inclusion report, for the organization as well as setting, some goal very clear goals to ensure that we're not only, trying to be at the national curve, but ahead of the national curve in terms of, diversity, equity, and inclusion.", "start": 1148.77, "end": 1169.745 }, { "text": "So, yeah, I I would also say in terms of folks that may be in areas where they don't feel that, their voices as supported or that they might not have, a a lot of allies in the either geographical or, just situational spaces that they're in.", "start": 1171.39, "end": 1192.425 }, { "text": "I would also say that it's just really important to kind of protect yourself and, and protect your own personal space.", "start": 1192.725, "end": 1202.1 }, { "text": "It can be difficult to sometimes always be the advocate, for something.", "start": 1202.4199, "end": 1207.14 } ], "start": 1127.48, "end": 1207.14, "num_words": 175.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so while it's important to feel empowered to lift up your voice, also ensure that you're taking care of yourself, and putting yourself in a in a space where, you feel safe.", "start": 1207.14, "end": 1219.4751 }, { "text": "And so that can take many different forms, but making sure to keep that self care component, in there as well.", "start": 1220.495, "end": 1227.81 } ], "start": 1207.14, "end": 1227.81, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You're a great one.", "start": 1228.03, "end": 1229.0901 }, { "text": "A a couple of podcasts I recommend.", "start": 1229.4701, "end": 1231.15 }, { "text": "I think, being able to, like, you know, listen in to some other communities and and listen to what they're talking about and pick up on the the way they describe Certain different kinds of marginalization or experience.", "start": 1231.15, "end": 1244.0951 }, { "text": "They're really experiences, that people are going through Is is one of the biggest ways that I have learned more.", "start": 1244.0951, "end": 1250.895 }, { "text": "I'd say I recommend pod save the people de ray mckesson is really a great leader on that.", "start": 1250.895, "end": 1256.24 } ], "start": 1228.03, "end": 1256.24, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "He's got an amazing book out.", "start": 1256.24, "end": 1258.24 }, { "text": "I highly recommend.", "start": 1258.24, "end": 1259.14 }, { "text": "Made of human by sophie hagan is a really good one.", "start": 1260.48, "end": 1264.1 }, { "text": "And oh, you know, I'm a huge fan of queer eye on Netflix.", "start": 1265.12, "end": 1270.515 }, { "text": "You speak queer eye for the straight guy and yeah, no, it's changed and they they also kind of address, in a fun way a lot of the common, like, misconceptions and, terminology and thoughts on, not just queer stuff, but also gender.", "start": 1272.015, "end": 1288.2201 } ], "start": 1256.24, "end": 1288.2201, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, there's obviously a lot of overlap, but, there's great stuff there.", "start": 1288.2201, "end": 1292.605 } ], "start": 1288.2201, "end": 1292.605, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank thank you both for being willing to share advice on that topic.", "start": 1292.825, "end": 1296.0249 }, { "text": "I I think folks out there will get a a lot of value out of hearing that, and, hopefully, they'll they'll learn something and maybe something that they can use to take action.", "start": 1296.0249, "end": 1304.55 }, { "text": "Next, I guess, it's time to be to ask for volunteer again, see if we can get a new item to start talking about.", "start": 1304.93, "end": 1311.99 } ], "start": 1292.825, "end": 1311.99, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, Ron, if you keep going first in volunteering, I appreciate it, but I'll take it take it this time.", "start": 1312.13, "end": 1317.9249 }, { "text": "My second big thing, is about, really leaning into, end to end design processes more.", "start": 1318.145, "end": 1327.0449 }, { "text": "You know, we say civic tech a lot is a way to describe our community, but I think, no.", "start": 1327.4249, "end": 1334.26 }, { "text": "You you're not a digital service team if you don't have service designers.", "start": 1334.26, "end": 1337.88 }, { "text": "And, these are experienced designers working on understanding, not just, you know, does the form make sense when someone fills it out, but, what's the process someone goes through from starting?", "start": 1337.9401, "end": 1349.055 } ], "start": 1312.13, "end": 1349.055, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Embarking on a journey to try to get a benefit or or interact with the government when they're required to To the end when they're considered, you know when they consider they've got the benefit and keep pushing out on the ends of those, of that kind of journey to understand more about what we're doing and, you know, where certain steps could be skipped or made a lot simpler for people.", "start": 1350.155, "end": 1373.25 }, { "text": "I think, this a lot of what's really pushing this movement forward is the way that we're empowering the people affected by the work that we do or affected by interactions with government, speak about their experiences and really be heard and and listened to and have their experiences inform what we what we do and how we change it.", "start": 1374.355, "end": 1396.28 }, { "text": "And I think that is gonna have an increasing effect.", "start": 1396.66, "end": 1399.5599 }, { "text": "And I've been really excited to see how it works.", "start": 1400.74, "end": 1402.935 }, { "text": "Especially at the state and local level.", "start": 1403.895, "end": 1405.5951 } ], "start": 1350.155, "end": 1405.5951, "num_words": 159.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think, like at the VA I've really watched and really been changed by watching how many billions and billions of dollars we put into building or failing to build tech to, informs that we then you know, I spend billions of dollars adjudicating and going through and and processing and you know that ends up putting a lot of government employees in an adversarial relationship with the people who are applying for benefits instead of helping them get what they need, which from my experience is what most people would rather be doing, if they went into government.", "start": 1405.895, "end": 1441.495 }, { "text": "And so I'm excited to see how that keeps pushing and, you know, how the movement starts pushing for, you know, baseline needs for people and and and giving people the basic human rights like health care and, food access and, improving reentry processes from the criminal justice system so that, we can really start focusing on people's needs and not, you know, efficiency or making a a prettier form.", "start": 1442.515, "end": 1475.665 } ], "start": 1405.895, "end": 1475.665, "num_words": 169.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1476.365, "end": 1476.685 }, { "text": "I love that.", "start": 1476.685, "end": 1477.585 }, { "text": "I wanna highlight what Leah was saying because that, ties into the second area that I wanted to talk about as well.", "start": 1478.14, "end": 1485.74 }, { "text": "But, to stay here for a second and really talk about work that we're doing that is impact for the communities in which we're looking to work with and in which we look to serve, I think is incredibly important, and being able to actually work on projects.", "start": 1485.74, "end": 1504.865 }, { "text": "At Code for America, one of the things that we talk about a lot, specifically in the work that we're doing in the community fellowship, is in work that affects vulnerable populations, because I think that's really the direction that civic tech is going in.", "start": 1505.86, "end": 1520.895 } ], "start": 1476.365, "end": 1520.895, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so, not just as as Leah said, making something prettier and not just the usability of it from an ease standpoint, but also from an impact standpoint is something that we're really focusing on and one of the reasons why I feel very proud to be a part of the network and the and the work that we're doing in Civic Tech.", "start": 1520.895, "end": 1544.23 }, { "text": "For the second area that I had wanted to highlight, four things that have gone well, that kind of goes into coordination with that.", "start": 1544.37, "end": 1553.7749 }, { "text": "So a lot of brigades have done a lot of work in working with partner organizations in their communities, and working with organizations that might specialize in an area that the brigade would like to work in but may not necessarily have experience in themselves.", "start": 1553.995, "end": 1571.4401 }, { "text": "So a couple of partnerships, that fall into this category are, in Asheville.", "start": 1572.38, "end": 1579.2949 }, { "text": "They did a lot of work with Beloved Asheville, which is an organization that works, with the homeless and the community in Asheville.", "start": 1579.5149, "end": 1589.375 } ], "start": 1520.895, "end": 1589.375, "num_words": 168.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In Nashville, they worked on a really interesting project with the legal city hackers, in order to help families appoint a power of attorney in the case of deportation, for parents.", "start": 1590.4401, "end": 1606.4249 }, { "text": "And they're just all throughout the brigade network are brigades working on different projects with various organizations that may not be the specialty or work experience of the folks that are part of the brigade, but they want to have an impact in an area and so have, sought out relationships, with various organizations that work in those areas.", "start": 1607.065, "end": 1631.45 }, { "text": "And so being able to actually say, hey.", "start": 1631.99, "end": 1636.745 }, { "text": "I wanna work on something, but I'm not necessarily the best person to say what the needs are of a certain community or, identify, exactly everything that's going on in somebody's experience.", "start": 1636.745, "end": 1649.4199 }, { "text": "And working with an organization that does specifically focus on that, I think there's a real strength that comes from that, and I think that's really where a lot of our power is is in being able to bring the skills that we do have to other people who have, experience in various areas that we're looking to focus in.", "start": 1650.04, "end": 1672.045 } ], "start": 1590.4401, "end": 1672.045, "num_words": 190.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I I'm really excited about this partnership aspect, that a lot of work is being done in and, has been highlighted throughout the year.", "start": 1672.425, "end": 1683.16 } ], "start": 1672.425, "end": 1683.16, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1683.86, "end": 1684.02 }, { "text": "I just I just saw, y'all announced they're partnering with what is it?", "start": 1684.02, "end": 1688.9451 }, { "text": "San Jose to do more, record expungement work?", "start": 1688.9451, "end": 1693.685 } ], "start": 1683.86, "end": 1693.685, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1693.745, "end": 1693.985 }, { "text": "So in Los Angeles, we're doing a partnership in Los Angeles.", "start": 1693.985, "end": 1699.525 }, { "text": "That was announced yesterday.", "start": 1700.0651, "end": 1701.4451 }, { "text": "And I think there's potential for up to, 50,000 people to be affected, by the rec the record clearance measures.", "start": 1702.53, "end": 1711.5901 }, { "text": "So it's really exciting work and building off of the work that we've done in San Francisco.", "start": 1712.2101, "end": 1716.625 } ], "start": 1693.745, "end": 1716.625, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And what's also really exciting is brigades are, getting into the, auto expungement area as well.", "start": 1717.965, "end": 1725.505 }, { "text": "So for example, in Portland, they're working, with their local DA's office to work on auto expungement, as part of the brigade.", "start": 1725.885, "end": 1736.4 }, { "text": "So there's lots of work happening in the, expungement area in particular, where we can have a real impact, and that's really exciting.", "start": 1736.4, "end": 1746.085 } ], "start": 1717.965, "end": 1746.085, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1746.625, "end": 1746.865 }, { "text": "And to me, that every time I see that that program move forward, I just I get goosebumps.", "start": 1746.865, "end": 1751.125 }, { "text": "I'm so excited about it.", "start": 1751.185, "end": 1752.625 }, { "text": "And it's such a perfect example to me of, like, addressing the needs of some of our most vulnerable communities and just fixing it for them, you know, in a way that doesn't force them to go through more forms or processes or systems, that are make things more difficult every time.", "start": 1752.625, "end": 1770.65 } ], "start": 1746.625, "end": 1770.65, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1771.51, "end": 1771.75 }, { "text": "I agree.", "start": 1771.75, "end": 1772.4701 }, { "text": "But I think that also highlights the the need for, people on on the inside, like you, Leah, and your colleagues who are able to push this forward from the inside as well.", "start": 1773.345, "end": 1788.92 }, { "text": "Because outside organization can only do so much.", "start": 1789.62, "end": 1793.16 }, { "text": "So definitely making an impact in this one specific area, but being able to have talent within government agencies at all levels, is is really where we'll, I think, have the most lasting change.", "start": 1794.1, "end": 1809.375 } ], "start": 1771.51, "end": 1809.375, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's a good point.", "start": 1810.875, "end": 1811.675 }, { "text": "And I should also just mention we're hiring at USDS at usds.gov/apply.", "start": 1811.675, "end": 1818.4299 }, { "text": "They just changed it, I think.", "start": 1818.4299, "end": 1819.87 }, { "text": "But they just launched a new website.", "start": 1820.35, "end": 1821.95 }, { "text": "And so we've got a lot more about what we're working on.", "start": 1821.95, "end": 1823.87 } ], "start": 1810.875, "end": 1823.87, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I mean, it's certainly one of the hardest times to be working in the federal government right now, but also, there's so few people that you if you are tough enough, you can have more of an impact now.", "start": 1823.87, "end": 1839.685 }, { "text": "So my DMs are open on Twitter.", "start": 1840.225, "end": 1842.865 }, { "text": "Let me know.", "start": 1842.865, "end": 1843.685 }, { "text": "We need more people.", "start": 1844.385, "end": 1845.4451 } ], "start": 1823.87, "end": 1845.4451, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, and I'll, make sure that the the link that you mentioned there is in the episode description as well.", "start": 1845.665, "end": 1851.47 }, { "text": "A a threat I think I was hearing from, like, both of what you're saying that kinda connects together is that, Leah, I think I heard from you this idea of, like, trying to move past, like, things that are maybe, like, actions that are, like, a paper over of of something that's bad, like a prettier form, for instance.", "start": 1851.9299, "end": 1868.395 }, { "text": "And, Veronica, I think I heard from you, like, something maybe connects with that, this idea of, like, trying to partner, like, the right expertise to the right thing.", "start": 1868.775, "end": 1876.155 }, { "text": "Am I hearing that like, is there a connection there?", "start": 1878.7, "end": 1880.62 }, { "text": "Like, what what do you folks see as, like, being the, like, critical thing to getting past the, like, pre your form as it's been put a couple of times to something that's more of like a concrete type of solution for folks.", "start": 1880.62, "end": 1892.9349 } ], "start": 1845.665, "end": 1892.9349, "num_words": 162.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1893.395, "end": 1893.515 }, { "text": "I mean, I think a lot of it is about, really leaning into that user experience and gaining strength from, even if you're not it's not your job to be interviewing users sitting in on, user experience testing sessions.", "start": 1893.515, "end": 1909.85 }, { "text": "I draw a lot of strength in fighting for veterans by listening to, listening in on the hearings that they go through or, sitting and watching them go through forms and, their reactions to how this is more respectful or, important.", "start": 1909.85, "end": 1928.1549 }, { "text": "And I think that continues to help push me towards fighting for, what is really the problem.", "start": 1928.84, "end": 1936.9401 }, { "text": "Like, every time there's you know, it's very tempting in our community and in tech in general to jump to solutions before really diagnosing what the problem is and what the people really need help with or or or really struggling with.", "start": 1937.16, "end": 1951.325 } ], "start": 1893.395, "end": 1951.325, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I it's it makes it a little bit harder.", "start": 1952.265, "end": 1955.77 }, { "text": "It's they're definitely difficult.", "start": 1955.77, "end": 1957.05 }, { "text": "You need some time afterwards, sometimes after listening to these interview sessions, but, focusing more and more on what they need and setting metrics around getting people something they really need as opposed to efficiency or, you know, making it a better app so they can, do it themselves.", "start": 1957.05, "end": 1976.945 }, { "text": "You know, like, there's a lot of bad development or, new applications that could be built if you you're only focusing on improving efficiency.", "start": 1977.245, "end": 1988.55 }, { "text": "Whereas if you keep remembering who's using your service and what they really need, you can set better metrics and goals for your team based on really helping them.", "start": 1988.61, "end": 2000.145 } ], "start": 1952.265, "end": 2000.145, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I agree with that, so much.", "start": 2000.925, "end": 2003.345 }, { "text": "I think one of the things that I think about too is is just realizing that we don't always have all of the answers.", "start": 2004.525, "end": 2012.4401 }, { "text": "I think especially, being empowered to, be in a in a technology role.", "start": 2013.14, "end": 2021.54 }, { "text": "I'm not a technologist myself, but even thinking about, like, some of the the basic ways that, you know, I might be more technologically advanced than somebody else.", "start": 2021.54, "end": 2032.515 }, { "text": "Sometimes I think that we believe that since we have these technological skills, therefore, we can come in and just provide a a quick answer to what somebody else is experiencing and really kind of sitting back and being able to humble ourselves and say, hey.", "start": 2032.895, "end": 2051.4102 } ], "start": 2000.925, 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leadership to resolve.", "start": 2076.06, "end": 2099.96 }, { "text": "But after a few years, you know, we make it look easy.", "start": 2100.66, "end": 2105.0598 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2105.0598, "end": 2105.38 }, { "text": "Like good design makes it look easy.", "start": 2105.38, "end": 2107.72 }, { "text": "And, you know, and we we know in truth it's the opposite, but that's often difficult for leadership to keep in mind when this team seems to keep doing good work and, delivering.", "start": 2107.7798, "end": 2120.035 } ], "start": 2076.06, "end": 2120.035, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so I see a lot of leadership kind of trying to, like, spread the team out across a ton more projects without really enabling, supporting them to grow, giving them the support and protection they need to keep pushing and asking the tough questions because so much of the really big wins in government come from having the the support and power to to go across several different teams or agencies within an organization and track down the real user experience from end to end.", "start": 2120.7349, "end": 2151.445 }, { "text": "And oftentimes that means asking some of the tougher questions or or getting people to trust you, and and tell you more about what the process is like and what's wrong.", "start": 2151.445, "end": 2161.0198 }, { "text": "And you need a lot more leadership support and protection to be able to keep doing that and keep pushing on that.", "start": 2161.0198, "end": 2166.645 }, { "text": "And so I don't know.", "start": 2167.365, "end": 2168.965 }, { "text": "It's tough.", "start": 2168.965, "end": 2169.705 } ], "start": 2120.7349, "end": 2169.705, "num_words": 146.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2171.525, "end": 2171.925 }, { "text": "I I, I second that as well, just in terms of the fact that leadership is so important, and I think that extends to lots of different, avenues and areas.", "start": 2171.925, "end": 2182.8198 }, { "text": "But, being able to have somebody, you know, what would be considered the top of any kind of organizational structure that you're in to be able to, go to bat for the things that you really need to do in order to make your job successful for the people that we're looking to serve is is something that's critical.", "start": 2182.8198, "end": 2203.695 }, { "text": "And a lot of people don't have support in the roles that they're in, whether that's in their day job or whether that's in the outside work that they're doing, in all different facets.", "start": 2203.915, "end": 2214.54 }, { "text": "So I think that kind of comes back to the conversation we were having earlier in terms of, speaking up.", "start": 2214.54, "end": 2221.755 } ], "start": 2171.525, "end": 2221.755, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so I think it's important for leadership in every, aspect to be able to speak up as well on behalf of the folks that are working every day to make things better.", "start": 2221.9949, "end": 2233.375 } ], "start": 2221.9949, "end": 2233.375, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2236.8599, "end": 2237.26 }, { "text": "I think that's a really great point is continuing to remember how much harder it is when you don't have a great manager.", "start": 2237.26, "end": 2243.02 }, { "text": "You don't have a great support.", "start": 2243.02, "end": 2244.06 }, { "text": "I think use learning more about service design and user experience has really helped me start seeing more of these things as You know, when a team's not succeeding or something It's more about I'm more inclined to start asking What are the structures in place that are?", "start": 2244.06, "end": 2264.215 }, { "text": "Supporting or preventing them from succeeding and what kind of leadership did they have and how much are they allowed to voice and talk about problems or things that aren't working and the more we can provide that support for projects that we work on, but also continue to work towards improving, the job experience of civil servants is a crucial component of the work we're doing if we wanna make lasting change.", "start": 2264.44, "end": 2293.365 } ], "start": 2236.8599, "end": 2293.365, "num_words": 151.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So now that we've talked about, some items either went well or or didn't go well over the past year, I'd like to shift us a little bit into talking about the current year.", "start": 2293.95, "end": 2303.41 }, { "text": "And, to kinda support that, I came up with, like, a couple of questions that maybe we could explore a little bit.", "start": 2304.1099, "end": 2309.25 }, { "text": "And one of those is sometimes folks will say that this is the year of the something.", "start": 2309.385, "end": 2314.845 }, { "text": "If you were to deposit something like that for civic tech in 2019, what would that be?", "start": 2315.465, "end": 2321.085 }, { "text": "And, Leah, would you like to kick us off with that?", "start": 2321.465, "end": 2323.8 } ], "start": 2293.95, "end": 2323.8, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 2324.76, "end": 2325.24 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2325.24, "end": 2325.6401 }, { "text": "I mean, I think what I'm especially hoping for from this year is, more reflection on our own models and our own systems and what enables a digital service team or a brigade or, anyone in government to succeed and really using more of the tools that we know work to solve and figure out these challenges, like design, user experience testing, to, to take a look back at, at what's, what are these teams struggling with across the country?", "start": 2325.6401, "end": 2361.9202 }, { "text": "What, what are they, what is making their jobs harder?", "start": 2363.1, "end": 2366.48 }, { "text": "And and how you know, and and especially even on just an individual level on your own team, you know, if if something's really not working or there's a process that's especially difficult, you know, like taking a couple weeks off from project work to reexamine what's working on your own team and and use keep remembering to keep using the tools that we know work on ourselves as well.", "start": 2367.335, "end": 2389.1702 } ], "start": 2324.76, "end": 2389.1702, "num_words": 162.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, Veronica, what what would that be for you?", "start": 2390.11, "end": 2392.61 } ], "start": 2390.11, "end": 2392.61, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I said that I'd love for this to be the year of empowerment.", "start": 2393.605, "end": 2397.225 }, { "text": "So something that I hope, to do in my role is is help empower other people to do the great work that they're doing.", "start": 2398.405, "end": 2409.64 }, { "text": "And so that's what I would I would love for people to feel.", "start": 2410.1199, "end": 2414.14 }, { "text": "I hope that people feel empowered to do the work that they're doing.", "start": 2414.5999, "end": 2418.5398 }, { "text": "We, one of the parts of my job that I really enjoy is I get to talk to people that are interested in possibly starting, a brigade in in various places around the country that don't have brigades already.", "start": 2419.045, "end": 2432.185 } ], "start": 2393.605, "end": 2432.185, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, and just to be able to hear the excitement that folks have to possibly bring a brigade, and more so just kind of an arm of civic tech into their communities is really exciting.", "start": 2432.725, "end": 2444.94 }, { "text": "And there are obviously, amazing leaders in our communities that already exist that are doing great work.", "start": 2446.52, "end": 2454.2952 }, { "text": "So my goal is just for folks to feel empowered to either start, doing work in the civic tech community or continue to do the work that they're doing, and feel that they have the support behind them to do so, both in a tangible way, but also just in a, hey.", "start": 2454.595, "end": 2476.885 }, { "text": "You're doing a great job.", "start": 2476.885, "end": 2478.0852 }, { "text": "We recognize that this is hard work, and you're you're doing a lot of this in your spare time for free for the benefit of your community, and basically having a cheerleader to do that.", "start": 2478.0852, "end": 2490.99 } ], "start": 2432.725, "end": 2490.99, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's what my goal would be is is for folks to feel empowered in the work that they're doing.", "start": 2490.99, "end": 2495.73 } ], "start": 2490.99, "end": 2495.73, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I love that.", "start": 2495.9502, "end": 2496.6702 }, { "text": "I mean, I've been thinking a lot about how the past couple years have pushed a lot of people, I think, to look more into their communities and, and build more community of, of, and build more strength from the people around them and the people that they want to uplift.", "start": 2496.6702, "end": 2514.985 }, { "text": "And I think you know, some a lot of this work may not have gotten done or been done had the election gone a different way and I think for a lot of people in the country in this country Things would be just as bad Had the election gone a better way.", "start": 2515.56, "end": 2533.0352 }, { "text": "So, who like, you know, who's really struggling in our communities?", "start": 2533.0352, "end": 2536.955 }, { "text": "And how are we helping them?", "start": 2536.955, "end": 2538.155 } ], "start": 2495.9502, "end": 2538.155, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and how are we reaching out to them more and realizing that we can't always trust a lot of the institutions and systems that we Thought were more trustworthy a few years ago and and now That we've been doing that work over the past couple years How are we activating that and pushing for more like Veronica was just saying and then empowering each other to to build on that people power and, make better change for our communities?", "start": 2538.155, "end": 2564.615 } ], "start": 2538.155, "end": 2564.615, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So a lot of conversations I have with people, they say that in particular, the the political climate has, has launched them to want to explore, doing good in their communities, which is why they're looking into starting a brigade.", "start": 2565.715, "end": 2580.24 }, { "text": "And so I think that, you know, at at the end of the day, a lot of, excitement in communities is based off of the political climate, and I think it goes both ways.", "start": 2581.42, "end": 2593.7952 }, { "text": "Like, the Tea Party, got its foundation and and rev up from, president Obama being in office.", "start": 2593.7952, "end": 2601.26 }, { "text": "And, now we have a very strong progressive movement, that has swung the other way given the, the national politics that we're experiencing.", "start": 2601.26, "end": 2611.6802 }, { "text": "But I will say that, at least in the civic tech community, I've, in my role, been able to see a lot of, folks doing a lot of great things in their community, based off of their feeling of wanting to, do good in their communities, which I think is great.", "start": 2612.605, "end": 2629.4202 } ], "start": 2565.715, "end": 2629.4202, "num_words": 165.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, I I definitely feel that the empowerment piece is is there on a certain level, and then being able to, hone that and and lift that up is something that I'm really excited to be a part of.", "start": 2629.4202, "end": 2644.805 } ], "start": 2629.4202, "end": 2644.805, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Before we draw our conversation to a close here, is there anything, you'd like to pull out from our conversation or pull in separately that you'd like to have the listener be thinking about as they stop listening to this program?", "start": 2645.345, "end": 2659.64 } ], "start": 2645.345, "end": 2659.64, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I guess the the one thing that I'd say is that the thing that I'm just most excited about, and, hopefully, everybody takes just a minute to think about the the people that we get to work with in this space.", "start": 2660.66, "end": 2674.885 }, { "text": "I mean, the work wouldn't be what it is without the relationships that we get to form and the people that we get to work with even being on this, you know, podcast with both of you.", "start": 2675.985, "end": 2688.1099 }, { "text": "It's just really cool to be able to, interact with other folks that are working so hard in order to make our communities and our country a better place, and that's a really special, identity to have, because a lot of people don't have that.", "start": 2688.43, "end": 2707.355 }, { "text": "They don't have that sense of community or or an outlet for the, for what they'd like to see in their communities.", "start": 2707.355, "end": 2715.87 }, { "text": "So I think that the people aspect is really cool, and I hope that everybody, that's listening to this, you probably are somehow in civic tech if you're listening to this and, just kind of give yourself a pat on the back and appreciate the other people that are around you, because it's really special to have have a community.", "start": 2715.93, "end": 2737.335 } ], "start": 2660.66, "end": 2737.335, "num_words": 205.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's wonderful.", "start": 2737.875, "end": 2738.695 }, { "text": "I I think that made me that reminded me that I was thinking a lot about how, like, as any great movement, we often disagree or, we think that folks should be doing something differently or, we think that there might be a better way and I think starting with questions and because as veronica said, that's such a I mean, it's such a good point like the people who are working in this are amazing and amongst the best people you know, smartest, biggest hearts.", "start": 2739.23, "end": 2771.3098 }, { "text": "Like it's I feel very lucky that I'm alive in the face of this while this movement is growing and, alive.", "start": 2771.3098, "end": 2779.89 }, { "text": "And I think, starting with questions when you disagree with something an organization is doing or, you know, I'm really remembering, that not everyone in the organization may agree or and definitely not everyone's responsible for a certain initiative or a certain approach or a certain plan and, without knowing the structures that they're facing or the challenges that they're facing it's really hard to judge from the outside what what they're up against and so, reaching out and asking questions and you know, always nudging always pushing.", "start": 2779.95, "end": 2816.715 }, { "text": "It's good.", "start": 2817.495, "end": 2818.215 } ], "start": 2737.875, "end": 2818.215, "num_words": 199.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But Or should I say and remembering to be empathetic to folks who are working on things in different structures different power structures and Supporting them and you know, you may even be giving them and empowering them by asking certain questions or pushing on different things but if you do it in a way that you're attacking them or really negative that that just makes things more difficult for everyone.", "start": 2818.215, "end": 2847.4849 }, { "text": "So I'm always trying to find the balance and and figure out how to push more in certain ways while, maintaining empathy and relationships and support for everyone involved.", "start": 2847.545, "end": 2858.6199 } ], "start": 2818.215, "end": 2858.6199, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Leah, veronica, I wanna thank both of you again for taking the time to come on and have this conversation.", "start": 2859.24, "end": 2864.895 }, { "text": "I think it's really important to now and again take the time to reflect what we observe, what we see, what, like, what's going on in the space around us.", "start": 2865.275, "end": 2873.91 }, { "text": "And I think you've given folks a lot of value in what you've said today and, something that's probably also very relatable for folks out there.", "start": 2874.0698, "end": 2880.8699 }, { "text": "So again, thank you both for for taking the time.", "start": 2880.8699, "end": 2883.2898 } ], "start": 2859.24, "end": 2883.2898, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks so much, Ryan.", "start": 2883.5898, "end": 2884.8098 } ], "start": 2883.5898, "end": 2884.8098, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You can follow us on Twitter using the 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Thank you both for sharing that. I I think based on your backgrounds, we're gonna have, like, a a really interesting conversation here. 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