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Doing so helps us reach a broader audience and helps motivate folks like me to make more of these episodes. So really a win win. All that said, let's go ahead and hop right in. Steven, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Civic Tech Chat. Could you take a moment to tell us a bit about who you are and what you do? Sure. Thanks, Ryan. My name is doctor Steven Kleinschmidt. I am the director of the new master of science in civic civic analytics program at the University of Illinois, at Chicago. It's a new data science program in the public sector. I've been slated to lead that. I had, a lead role in helping to develop it, and, I guess we'll kind of iron out a lot of this, in this kind of, coming conversation. One of the things we ask about often on these episodes is about this idea of personal why. So, Steven, for you, what is it that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do? I could say that, I've always been a bit of a builder that my interest in the public sector and and and data science and just broadly has been when I see a need, I see, something that I think should be done that, you know, often other people will you know, people will stand around and say, oh, it would be nice if somebody did that. You know you know, it would be great if this were were to happen. I've always kind of been kind of in that role of, well, if not me, then then who? And and if not now, then when? So I guess that's one thing that's kinda typified, not only the creation of this degree, but some of the other things I've done. I I created this conference, known as the Midwest Public Affairs Conference. I created an open, had I had a, import role in founding this, an open source, academic, open access academic journal in public affairs called the Journal of Public and Nonprofit Affairs. I've got other things that I've kind of got in the shoot that, yeah, just this idea of when you see a need and you see an opportunity to lead and to build things that that may have value for for the public sector and for your field, I think that's kind of, my my mode of operation and and what that's what drives me is being a builder. As you've gone along the way, have you come across any pieces of media, be they print, video, podcast, or or some other thing that you found to be especially inspiring or informative? I guess, coming into this the sort of Chicago civic technology space, you know, I'd say probably one of the first and and ultimately, informative type of institutions that I ran across with Shy Hacknight. Just super interested in, you know, when I arrived here that, you know, I'd I'd kind of interacted with some smaller dispersed, groups and initiatives that met online and stuff like that, but I was really kind of blown away with their, the degree of their capacity and organization and, the innovation that was shown kind of in that, in those spaces. I guess, as as kinda traditional media well, I don't know if you call them traditional media, but, I've always been a fan of, e l g l, gov love, engaging local government leaders, has their own podcast series that, gov love that helps, inform people about what's being done in local government. I I guess that's coming from my experience as being a former urban planner and local government practitioner. And, also, for those of you who are kind of interested in sort of the academic realm of public affairs and public administration, There's a podcast series known as academics of PA, that, has gotten some pretty good talent, you know, some high level people, you know, thought leaders and researchers in the field of public administration and public affairs to go on and sort of talk about their motivations and their careers and stuff like that. And, I thought that that's been a pretty interesting, thing as well. So so, yeah, just, those those are kind of my choices is is the things that have kind of, inspired me both in the past and, these days. I definitely appreciate you sharing those resources with us. And as always, I'll go out and gather some links for the things that were mentioned here, and they'll be in the episode description. To give the listener a little bit of context about the conversation we're about to have, could you tell us a little bit about the path you've taken thus far and how it's led you to where you are today? Getting on the path of of this, of information sciences, I was always interested in technology and and kind of playing with tools and stuff like that, you know, computer based things even back in high school. But, I'm I originally went to college. I started off as a computer science major. I moved to geography and GIS. Later, I'd become an urban planner, and, I think in part, it was that experience that informed me to get into academia as just seeing this kind of combination of technology, public sector applications, and and data and seeing how it was used. Before I came to UIC, I was a professor at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan. I I taught in the the the public, school public administration affairs there. So I guess it's been kind of this path that has always kind of intersected with, an interest in serving, the public, kind of an interest in education, but also technology. And I think that's kind of, you know, in getting here to getting here to UIC and seeing my my roles change that, I got here kind of to you know, I was hired to be the director of the master of public administration program and then saw this strategic opportunity to create a public sector data science degree program. And our our department school and, ultimately, the Illinois Board of Higher Education bought into this this vision. And now I'm the director of this now. So I think in in in some terms that I think not only for me, but for probably people who are listening to this is that you probably felt something in the in your past that I love technology. I love data. I love that environment, but I also love to do good things in the public interest. And that's, I think, the kind of long game that that ended up being, you know, ending with the creation of this program that that's launching and stuff like that. And I think that that kind of mindset probably appeals to quite a few of your listeners being here in the civic technology community. I I do believe that's probably the case, and I think that's a really good way to to segue us into our our main topic here, which is that civic analytics program that you were referring to there in your answer. Sure. To to get us started about that, could you give us the the, like, high level description or elevator pitch, kind of thing for, what this program is all about? Yeah. I guess in the the very short, you know, the big data for the public sector, data science for the public sector, that a new type of public servant that is anchored in, the traditions of, applied statistics, data science, and, but also trained within the particular constraints, culture, and democratic realities, behind public institutions. So, so in in a contrast to the private sector, you know, focused on on, economic max maximization and business development and other things like that. Our our our our mission is very much to take these technologies and apply it to to the public interest and and be able to create a more accountable and, efficient government. I imagine your work in in putting a program like this together was something that took quite a bit of time investment, energy investment, and intention on your part as well as the parts of others. Could you tell us a little bit about the the why for your want to, put together a program like this? Sure. I guess, in part, we'd already kind of anchored the idea of, of of having a program like this. We had a existing, master of public administration degree that had a concentration in information technology and performance measurement that, already had some of these courses, that already had some of these, or at least had smaller versions of this course, coursework and and course sequence. And, I think it was in part because of some of the faculty in our college, the interest of students, kind of man looking at the trends in the field and some of the the movement of of early actors in public data science and, and just really getting this this idea, you know, with such an engaged civic technology community and such a significant number of organizations and, innovators in this space here in Chicago, we really felt that we had a, strategic opportunity to do something that had not really been fully, you know, explored in the field and and something that had not been kind of done before. So I think in part, the strategic opportunities that, you know, we we, you know, have this this great city. We have this, you know, the benefit of of an active civic technology, community. We have, all these institutions, private, public, nonprofit sector institutions that are engaged in this space. So we really felt that it would be it would be great to be able to to offer a unique educational experience that nobody else has done and kind of position ourselves as leaders, in in sort of the, this this intersection of civic technology and, data analytics. You mentioned there were some trends in public, data science that helped nudge you along to to come to the conclusion that this was a was a need. Could Could you talk a little bit more about those? Sure. I'm I've I've been, kind of doing some research on this for a white paper for one of our accrediting bodies. So I've kind of been I was lucky just to have this kind of in my head, as of late. So, you know, as you know, we we've been growing as an information society for for quite a while now. You know? And, when it comes to academic programs and data science, ever since 2007, when the first master's programs in data analytics was was begun, we've seen this sort of explosion of degree programs and, employment opportunities, in in data science, kind of agnostic of sector or, you know, in in the private sector and and whatnot. Starting in around, 2014, you start the you saw the rise of early entrance, early kind of, programs that that wanted to establish this, you know, that they were seeing significant opportune need for people who are specifically trained in, principles of data science, you know, in part to be able to better utilize government data to to deal with some of the the same technologies and, regulatory considerations that were being driven by the the private sector and stuff like that. So I I think it was in part just the need for the public sector to catch up where society was kind of, you know, particularly the private sector was was running full speed that the public sector was kind of, just lagging a little bit behind, in kind of a responsive mode. But, yeah, I guess it's this, we definitely see the need for this these type of of of people and and, in organizations and employers. You see the rise of, you know, new agencies of, you know, like, city information offices, new positions for people who optimize, transit routes, people who are working in in the nonprofits that depend on on government derived and open data and even generate data themselves and stuff like that. So we fundamentally see this this this rise of, you know, you know, increasing quantification in case increasing digital services, the adoption of, Internet of things and sensor networks and automatically, reported and, real time data streams and other things like that. And these methods are just simply not the type of things that you would typically get within a traditional public affairs frame of coursework and stuff like that. So we saw the need to create something new and to and to help tap into this, as well. I, like perhaps many other listeners of the program, haven't themselves been involved in the creation of an academic program, much less one that's, like, in this specific area. Could you talk to us a little bit about, like, what the process is like to put something like this together? Oh, sure. So, particularly at a state institution, there's quite a few quite a few boards and and committees and subcommittees and and other things that you have to, you have to, to to do. So anytime you start a new degree program, you're going to have to justify it based on these principles that are, laid out by the offices or the administration that, you know, there has to be a need, that it has to align with the university's mission and and that of the Illinois Board of Higher Education, that, you know, that you've got estimate enrollments and, you know, we wanna make sure that we're not just duplicating the same thing that had been done before or, or even within the institution, creating different versions of the same program that that kind of just skeletonize each other. So even at the beginning, it's like you have to do your background research to say, here is something that, is fundamentally different, and here's the reason why we we think this is something worthy of of dedicating, you know, an entire educational track to. There's having to go to other academic units across the university system, and and talk to them about, you know, how can we can incorporate some of your coursework, for students who wanna take electives or are looking for other things like that and and to assure them that we're not in the you know, to coming in there to to sort of to take their space and stuff like that, or or occupy their space, if you will. Then you have to go to a department departmental commit departmental committee meeting and convince your colleagues in your media department, yeah, this is something we could do. We have the faculty resources. We have, either have the faculty or we can hire the people we need to to to train the you know, to run this thing. We have the resources to make it work and all that stuff like that. Then it goes up to the college where all the departments within the college look at those. Then it then it ends up moving up to the faculty senate and then, up to the board of trustees and, has to be approved by, you know, not only the, you know, the graduate faculty of of of the of the university, but the provost and the chancellor and then, and the board of trustees. And then finally, it goes up to the Illinois Board of Higher Education, which, reviews these programs to you know, before issuing a final type thing. So it's a long drawn out process, and I I know that many people who might know me from the civic technology space, you know, I started coming to meetups and try hack nights, you know, almost two years ago. And I said, here's something that we're working on. It's coming down the pipe. You know? And, you know, I I don't think anybody got impatient about it, but, you know, it always just seemed like this thing that was far off. But, you know, there's always a tremendous degree of care and process to these type things. But, you know, you know, we finally got it approved in April or sorry, in August, 2019. And, and and, you know, now I'm able to talk about it, and and here we are. So as you went through all of that, were there any lessons learned you picked up along the way that you'd be willing to share with us? You know, irrespective if you're starting a degree or or if you're starting a new organization in the tech space or something like that, I think it's really incumbent upon you to bring people aboard. We we were able to get different, members of the civic technology community, and, institutions who reviewed our proposal and everything like that. I think it's really important that, you know, if you're gonna launch something is that you get buy in from the community itself, that you you do what you can to support them and don't, you know, don't come in and just stake your flag and say, this is us now, that, you know, we're really here to be part of this community, to contribute to it both in terms of of service and and and maybe, you know, you know, a financial component as well. But, yeah, I think the biggest thing is bring people aboard. Let them know what's coming down the pipe, and, you'd be surprised how much that how far that goes into helping you get things done. Taking a step back and and looking, at the program, maybe from the perspective of someone who's looking at this and kinda trying to to figure out what what it is and what it would mean for them if they were interested in it. Could we talk about the differentiation of a program like this versus something like a public administration program or a public policy program? Traditionally, our programs had been our graduate programs had been anchored by the MPA. The MPA, the master of public administration, is a degree that is primarily seated in, for, you know, for people who want to to lead government you know, public organizations, be they government and nonprofits, you know, that they they're they're looking for managerial roles. They're looking for leadership roles. They're looking for, kind of positions that have them administering people. The the type of coursework is things like financing, finance and budgeting, organizational culture and and management, ethics, strategic planning, program evaluation, these type of things that deal with, you know, that that laws and policies have to be implemented. They have to be staffed. People have to get paid. There are, you know, procedures, labor relations, all that other stuff like that. So an MPA is very much anchored in that that idea of of running a public organization. The master public policy is a bit different. It's it's more in terms of crafting solutions to legislative intent. It's there's it's a bit more quantitative. Generally, it's it's anchored in, more advanced kind of statistical analysis, a greater emphasis on program evaluation, economics. You're much it's a much more technical kind of analyst style position that is is for people who really want to dig into the nuances of of of policy and and be able to turn those into, you know, into, programs and and rules and administrative kind of, things that are implemented by those in public administration. So that's kind of, like, you know, the big you know, the big picture of, you know, what the MPA and MPP are. Now switch switching over to civic analytics is that, this is a much kind of different thing. And, fundamentally, and it's different is that we we see a lot more of these people that, they're advanced analysts that the degree of statistical research method kind of training is is much more intense. Knowledge of data science principles, be they sort of database, programming languages, web scraping, the infrastructure of data, privacy, ensuring security. Yeah. There's there's a lot of principles that that deal with the things that are specific. I think you would find there's quite a bit of overlap, say, with, in in some of the core principles of data science, data science field and data science programs that are field in specific. But but particularly in terms of civic analytics is that it's one of the defining features I, you know, I feel in the defining features that differentiates this this degree from general principles of data science just as the MPA is fundamentally different from the MBA or the master of business administration is that, you know, our the the mission of public agencies are so is so much different. You know, it's to to ensure, you know, the the public interest, to to protect the environment, to, ensure social equity, provide, you know, equitable transport transportation to ensure democracy, to protect citizen privacy and stuff like that. So in sort of the the big scheme of things is that the the commitment to the public interest and the public mission is the thing that really defines, even civic analytics from other data science programs. And I think that's one of the things that we really want to impart upon, you know, you know, people who are listening to this at home is that you're going to get the data science fundamentals. You're going to get those understandings of those those principles that you get, but it's like that you're also going to get a lot of that information. You know, you're gonna get a lot of training in government institutions, the nonprofit sector, its culture, civic accountability, just a lot of these different elements of the public sector that are that that fundamentally change the nature of the discussions and coursework and and the methodologies that you're going to use to solve these problems. Looking at the sort of skills that you've you've talked about there that that come out of that civic civic analytics program, what sort of career endeavors do you think are are best served by by those gains through the program? Oh, yeah. So, yeah, it's quite a bit, that we we foresee that, you know, the type of people with these skills are gonna be desirable, you know, and all sorts of types of government, you know, local, state, federal, large nonprofit, you know, even medium sized nonprofits, government consultancies and, services, units, and things like that. People are going to have titles like analysts, information officers. You know, senior ones are gonna be chief information officers or chief data officers, data specialists, spatial analysts. We see kind of a rise of data informed journalism. I think, ProPublica Illinois has really shown kind of the potential here in kind of the Chicago area that, you know, here's here's, you know, types of journalism that are informed directly by relying on open data and FOIA and other things like that. And and, you know, rather than just kind of looking for government documents, but but being able to use government government open data as a way to do investigative journalism is is something that's of real interest. Nonprofit groups, nonprofit advocacy, organizations, federal government. You have people who are, you know, working diplomacy. Some, you know, perhaps in the national security community and stuff like that. So, yeah, we see you know, anywhere there's data in places where where, data can be optimized, it can be improved, that it can be integrated across siloed kind of, you know, information silos and units and stuff like that. We we think that there's going to be a need for these, for people in these these kind of positions, and we, you know, think that looking at some of the estimates that, various various units have, put out there that, you know, there's already a shortage in some of these, in these areas, and there's definitely a need for for people who can specialize on, you know, the the type of methodological rigor that's needed to really make, derive use, useful information from the data that government collects. As I was looking around, through the the the material about this program, one thing that stuck out to me is that y'all include a course, about data science ethics, along with the the others. Could you tell us a little bit about, the aims of that sort of course and the intention behind its placement? Yeah. So the idea of of data science ethics is that, you know, there's all sorts of you know, if if you study kind of theory about the use of data that, you know, data doesn't always work the way it's intended. It can be misused. It can be misapplied. It can be selectively disclosed. It can be leaked. You know, databases can be breached, because of inadequate security and other things like that. And I think that, you know, that you know, if you're like me, from time to time, you probably get an email from, you know, a different either credit monitoring agency or or some sort of service that says that, you know, your your information might have possibly been, you know, disclosed in a breach. You know? It doesn't matter if it's, you know, if if your Facebook account or a dating website or something like that. And, you know, as much as that as bad as that is, a lot of the times, you know, the remedy is just to, you know, to ensure that, you know, change your password word and and all that other stuff like that. But in the public sector, you know, data, you know, we have a lot of data that has, you know, substantial role in in in our identities as people be it, you know, Social Security numbers, health data, military service records. You know, all these type of things lead to, you know, being enrolled or, qualification for, you know, the the the key to who we are and they're key to our you know, being able to navigate kind of the reality that we live in and stuff like that. So, so having, you know, security and and and and thinking, you know, those sort of aspects is is important. But, you know, the ethics of of how data is used, there's there's kind of this line in in research that has to deal with instrumental rationality and this idea of quantification bias that, that when you create tools that if you digitize everything and you reduce the complexity of the individual down to just, another number or another line in the spreadsheet or other things like that, that it tends it tends to become easier for you to make difficult decisions or when you automate decision making or, you know, you're you're kind of reducing the dimensionality of people from, you know, from from human beings into just a, you know, a one or a zero on a spreadsheet. And particularly when you're dealing with, you know, democracy and democratic institutions and public accountability, and, and and real lives and stuff like that is that we can't fall into that trap, that cognitive trap of just just being well. This is what the algorithm proposed, you know, that you can you can create or widen social or economic inequality. You can completely miss entire communities because of surveyed nonresponse and and missing data. So our, you know, our our partners and myself, when creating this degree said that we we absolutely have to anchor this degree in the idea of ethical public service, of understanding the the the possibilities and and and the the challenges of of using some of these tools. And we want to, from the outset, get it in the people's minds that, you know, that this isn't all just you know, this isn't we're not trying to get, you know you know, we're not selling advertising. We're not, trying to optimize sales records or other things like that. You know, we're dealing with people's lives here, and we need to to have a bit more understanding of the ethical dilemmas that posit themselves when you're using this type of data, you know, in ways that you wouldn't find in the private sector. It sounds like it very much feeds back into some of those, skills we were talking about that were, like, really focused on, I guess, like, the public interest part of a program like this. Am I hearing that that correctly? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Certainly. You know, a lot of the early entrance in this this space of data science, you know, might have came from computer science programs or come from, you know, data or information sciences and never really got the chance to contemplate the the sort of complexities of the phenomenon that that they're working at. So I think in some part, that that's one of our intentionality is that, you know, that we can't just focus on the tools themselves. We can't just focus on the methods, and and just making the most wham bam best visualizations and the prettiest maps and all that other stuff like that is that we really have to understand the depth to which, civic technology and and the depth to which these, these technologies drive decision making and and and influence people's lives. And, yeah, that that commitment to the public interest, you know, is the core, you know, the you know, it's the civic of the analytic you know, civic analytics component. So we're really looking at what is the nature of civil society and civic technology and and how do we promote the public interest through its use. Speaking of folks that might be looking to enter a program like this, from, I would imagine, a varying degree of different backgrounds, what sort of qualities, do you all typically look for in a prospective candidate for this program? I guess one of the things about, the field of public affairs is that we're not, you know, that in a lot of fields and disciplines, if you say if you wanted to get a master's of chemistry, you'd probably you'd have a bachelor's of chemistry. It would be like the, you know, just the at a base level is that that, you know, that that sort of prerequisite. The great thing about public affairs programs for the most part is that, you know, there's such a diverse manifestation of public service that there really isn't perfect majors. You know, there are some traditional feeders like political science, undergrad public policy, economics, sociology, and stuff like that. But, you know, I've taught students who've had degrees in divinity and and, you know, French literature and other stuff like that, particularly in our MPA program because, you know, if if you did get a degree in art performance, the best way to kinda make a career of out of art performance after you, you know, perhaps, stop performing is that you might run a nonprofit or a theater or, some sort of organization. So, you know, teach people to run those things. So so yeah. So I you know, not not rambling on too much, but, but we don't have a at at the outset, a set type. But that being said, the people who I've been interacting with so far since we've announced the program is that we tend to you know, we find people who, in public health, political science, economics, computer science, public policy, bunch of people who've kind of been in this public realm a little bit or or in the technical realm and that are either looking to understand the appreciation, you know, their computer science or information sciences, people who want to get that, you know, have have great preparation in coding and statistics and all that stuff and and really want to to do the the public affairs side, or you have public affairs people who want to really nerd out on their kinda technical side. But, yeah, I mean, we have, you know, you know, GPA requirements and, and stuff like that. But I think, you know, at a at a minimum, the type of things you know, qualities, we're looking for people who are inquisitive. We're looking for people who have a strong commitment to to the public sector. We like people who are innovative, who are constantly looking for, you know, just put their neck out a little bit sometimes to to create an you know, it's like, you know, I wanna create something new. I wanna, I see a way to to to solve a problem that hasn't been done before. So I wouldn't say I'd say they're less traditional than, you know, we you you might find in other kind of public affairs disciplines. But, yeah, I also say part of the degree requirement is that you have, taken at least you know, taken a class in statistics, that covers inferential, research methods, you know, regression and maybe logistic regression. Because if you're gonna get a degree in applied statistics and data science, you should have, you know, at least some experience having taken a course to know that if that that's something for you. We can train you, on a lot of the elements that you know, a lot of the the elements of of public sector data science, but, we also find, you know, some people, if it's evidenced at all throughout the civic technology community, there's a there's a tremendous amount of people who self teach themselves particular technical skills or, supplemental skills, you know, whether it's taking, you know, like, they know r and they wanna learn Python, or they know Python, they wanna learn r, or they wanna learn a particular coding language or something like that. So the type of people who, you know, we can we can teach you a lot of stuff, but the the the network of programs and development environments and visualization tools and stuff like that is constantly evolving. So I think people who are innovators but who love to learn and and and are are self motivated are really the type of people that we're looking for. For a listener out there that's keen on what they've heard so far and they're they're thinking about this, like, you know, I I think I might be interested in a program like this. What would be the best way for them to voice that interest into to engage with y'all? You know, I'm I'm willing to schedule a call or or Skype or, you know, respond to questions over emails and stuff like that because I know, you know, this is kind of a different animal than things that have been proposed, before. And and, you know, there's not very many public sector data science programs, so there's gonna be a lot of questions just by the the nature of occupying this space. So I'd say, you know, reach out to me. The you know, my email address, s w k l e I n or swklein@uic.edu. That's one great that's one great way of of getting in touch with me. I'm, you know, I'm always happy to answer questions. You know, our our website has details about the degree requirements, the curriculum, the, admissions procedure, deadlines, and whatnot. And I can also direct you to some of our administrative staff who can tell you about, you know, opportunities for funding, graduate, research and teaching assistantships. But, also, I'd say one thing. I manage our department's, Twitter account, and I think one thing that that a lot of programs don't always, you know, that do well at exposing is, like, what is the intellectual life at a university or a particular department like? And I've tried to do my best to to show, you know, who our faculty are, who our students are, the type of events that we we we hold and host. You know, we've got our UIC urban forum that's, coming up next Thursday, that that is focusing on the rise of autonomous vehicles, how to regulate them, what sort of policy is needed. So, you know, just we have events. We have faculty research. We've got people traveling overseas at the moment and and and all the time, you know, presenting at conferences and stuff like that. So I'd say, you know, to to look at us not only as a, you know, this, you know, this degree granting program, but but look at the the intellectual life of of the department and and look at kind of what we offer in terms of the whole experience, and the opportunities that we can provide you to to, you know, to study, but also to, you know, to become part of this kind of wider public affairs community. Steven, again, I wanna thank you so much for, coming on to Civic Tech Chat. As is tradition with this program, we leave a space at the end of the episode for the guests to tell us, like, what sort of things we should be thinking about as we depart this episode. So for you and for this episode, what would that be? You know, I appreciate the opportunity to to talk about this sort of program. You know, I I feel very, you know, I'm very pleased to be kind of in this space and that that, you know, a program like this exists. For for those of you out there who who are looking for you're looking for something that is different. You're looking for something that, combines a lot of divergent kind of loves, you know, be technology, public interest, social good, and, you know, the the kind of, old adage about being the change you wanna see in the world. Let's say, you know, I'd ask you to check us out. We we we wanna be on this edge of innovation. We want to be part of the civic technology, you know, the broader civic technology community. And and, we're even kind of working with with our you know, within the field to help establish, you know, this this idea of public sector data science is something that, a greater emphasis, in our field and and and throughout society. So, if you're interested in these programs, if you're interested in, the type of advocacy and and career paths, we really feel, you know, from our research that this is going to be a data literacy, data competency. The ubiquity of data technologies and information sciences is something that, you know, change has been coming. It's accelerating. It's it's gonna be a useful skill that is going to serve you well. And and, and if you're really looking to be on the edge, you know, the tip of the spear when it comes to public service and towards improving society, we think this is going to be, you know, one of the most direct paths to to being, you know, in that kind of new reality. So please don't hesitate to reach out. We're really happy to answer your questions, and, I'm really happy to to talk with you. And, and I appreciate the opportunity to being able to to talk with you and and have your ear here today. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. 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I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Before we get into the episode, I do wanna give you that friendly reminder that if you've liked this content so far, you should hop on over to your podcast app to give us a five star review. Doing so helps us reach a broader audience and helps motivate folks like me to make more of these episodes.\n\nSo really a win win. All that said, let's go ahead and hop right in. Steven, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Civic Tech Chat. Could you take a moment to tell us a bit about who you are and what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure. Thanks, Ryan. My name is doctor Steven Kleinschmidt. I am the director of the new master of science in civic civic analytics program at the University of Illinois, at Chicago. It's a new data science program in the public sector.\n\nI've been slated to lead that. I had, a lead role in helping to develop it, and, I guess we'll kind of iron out a lot of this, in this kind of, coming conversation.\n\nSpeaker 0: One of the things we ask about often on these episodes is about this idea of personal why. So, Steven, for you, what is it that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: I could say that, I've always been a bit of a builder that my interest in the public sector and and and data science and just broadly has been when I see a need, I see, something that I think should be done that, you know, often other people will you know, people will stand around and say, oh, it would be nice if somebody did that. You know you know, it would be great if this were were to happen. I've always kind of been kind of in that role of, well, if not me, then then who? And and if not now, then when? So I guess that's one thing that's kinda typified, not only the creation of this degree, but some of the other things I've done.\n\nI I created this conference, known as the Midwest Public Affairs Conference. I created an open, had I had a, import role in founding this, an open source, academic, open access academic journal in public affairs called the Journal of Public and Nonprofit Affairs. I've got other things that I've kind of got in the shoot that, yeah, just this idea of when you see a need and you see an opportunity to lead and to build things that that may have value for for the public sector and for your field, I think that's kind of, my my mode of operation and and what that's what drives me is being a builder.\n\nSpeaker 0: As you've gone along the way, have you come across any pieces of media, be they print, video, podcast, or or some other thing that you found to be especially inspiring or informative?\n\nSpeaker 1: I guess, coming into this the sort of Chicago civic technology space, you know, I'd say probably one of the first and and ultimately, informative type of institutions that I ran across with Shy Hacknight. Just super interested in, you know, when I arrived here that, you know, I'd I'd kind of interacted with some smaller dispersed, groups and initiatives that met online and stuff like that, but I was really kind of blown away with their, the degree of their capacity and organization and, the innovation that was shown kind of in that, in those spaces. I guess, as as kinda traditional media well, I don't know if you call them traditional media, but, I've always been a fan of, e l g l, gov love, engaging local government leaders, has their own podcast series that, gov love that helps, inform people about what's being done in local government. I I guess that's coming from my experience as being a former urban planner and local government practitioner. And, also, for those of you who are kind of interested in sort of the academic realm of public affairs and public administration, There's a podcast series known as academics of PA, that, has gotten some pretty good talent, you know, some high level people, you know, thought leaders and researchers in the field of public administration and public affairs to go on and sort of talk about their motivations and their careers and stuff like that.\n\nAnd, I thought that that's been a pretty interesting, thing as well. So so, yeah, just, those those are kind of my choices is is the things that have kind of, inspired me both in the past and, these days.\n\nSpeaker 0: I definitely appreciate you sharing those resources with us. And as always, I'll go out and gather some links for the things that were mentioned here, and they'll be in the episode description. To give the listener a little bit of context about the conversation we're about to have, could you tell us a little bit about the path you've taken thus far and how it's led you to where you are today?\n\nSpeaker 1: Getting on the path of of this, of information sciences, I was always interested in technology and and kind of playing with tools and stuff like that, you know, computer based things even back in high school. But, I'm I originally went to college. I started off as a computer science major. I moved to geography and GIS. Later, I'd become an urban planner, and, I think in part, it was that experience that informed me to get into academia as just seeing this kind of combination of technology, public sector applications, and and data and seeing how it was used.\n\nBefore I came to UIC, I was a professor at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan. I I taught in the the the public, school public administration affairs there. So I guess it's been kind of this path that has always kind of intersected with, an interest in serving, the public, kind of an interest in education, but also technology. And I think that's kind of, you know, in getting here to getting here to UIC and seeing my my roles change that, I got here kind of to you know, I was hired to be the director of the master of public administration program and then saw this strategic opportunity to create a public sector data science degree program. And our our department school and, ultimately, the Illinois Board of Higher Education bought into this this vision.\n\nAnd now I'm the director of this now. So I think in in in some terms that I think not only for me, but for probably people who are listening to this is that you probably felt something in the in your past that I love technology. I love data. I love that environment, but I also love to do good things in the public interest. And that's, I think, the kind of long game that that ended up being, you know, ending with the creation of this program that that's launching and stuff like that.\n\nAnd I think that that kind of mindset probably appeals to quite a few of your listeners being here in the civic technology community.\n\nSpeaker 0: I I do believe that's probably the case, and I think that's a really good way to to segue us into our our main topic here, which is that civic analytics program that you were referring to there in your answer.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure.\n\nSpeaker 0: To to get us started about that, could you give us the the, like, high level description or elevator pitch, kind of thing for, what this program is all about?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I guess in the the very short, you know, the big data for the public sector, data science for the public sector, that a new type of public servant that is anchored in, the traditions of, applied statistics, data science, and, but also trained within the particular constraints, culture, and democratic realities, behind public institutions. So, so in in a contrast to the private sector, you know, focused on on, economic max maximization and business development and other things like that. Our our our our mission is very much to take these technologies and apply it to to the public interest and and be able to create a more accountable and, efficient government.\n\nSpeaker 0: I imagine your work in in putting a program like this together was something that took quite a bit of time investment, energy investment, and intention on your part as well as the parts of others. Could you tell us a little bit about the the why for your want to, put together a program like this?\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure. I guess, in part, we'd already kind of anchored the idea of, of of having a program like this. We had a existing, master of public administration degree that had a concentration in information technology and performance measurement that, already had some of these courses, that already had some of these, or at least had smaller versions of this course, coursework and and course sequence. And, I think it was in part because of some of the faculty in our college, the interest of students, kind of man looking at the trends in the field and some of the the movement of of early actors in public data science and, and just really getting this this idea, you know, with such an engaged civic technology community and such a significant number of organizations and, innovators in this space here in Chicago, we really felt that we had a, strategic opportunity to do something that had not really been fully, you know, explored in the field and and something that had not been kind of done before. So I think in part, the strategic opportunities that, you know, we we, you know, have this this great city.\n\nWe have this, you know, the benefit of of an active civic technology, community. We have, all these institutions, private, public, nonprofit sector institutions that are engaged in this space. So we really felt that it would be it would be great to be able to to offer a unique educational experience that nobody else has done and kind of position ourselves as leaders, in in sort of the, this this intersection of civic technology and, data analytics.\n\nSpeaker 0: You mentioned there were some trends in public, data science that helped nudge you along to to come to the conclusion that this was a was a need. Could Could you talk a little bit more about those?\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure. I'm I've I've been, kind of doing some research on this for a white paper for one of our accrediting bodies. So I've kind of been I was lucky just to have this kind of in my head, as of late. So, you know, as you know, we we've been growing as an information society for for quite a while now. You know?\n\nAnd, when it comes to academic programs and data science, ever since 2007, when the first master's programs in data analytics was was begun, we've seen this sort of explosion of degree programs and, employment opportunities, in in data science, kind of agnostic of sector or, you know, in in the private sector and and whatnot. Starting in around, 2014, you start the you saw the rise of early entrance, early kind of, programs that that wanted to establish this, you know, that they were seeing significant opportune need for people who are specifically trained in, principles of data science, you know, in part to be able to better utilize government data to to deal with some of the the same technologies and, regulatory considerations that were being driven by the the private sector and stuff like that. So I I think it was in part just the need for the public sector to catch up where society was kind of, you know, particularly the private sector was was running full speed that the public sector was kind of, just lagging a little bit behind, in kind of a responsive mode. But, yeah, I guess it's this, we definitely see the need for this these type of of of people and and, in organizations and employers.\n\nYou see the rise of, you know, new agencies of, you know, like, city information offices, new positions for people who optimize, transit routes, people who are working in in the nonprofits that depend on on government derived and open data and even generate data themselves and stuff like that. So we fundamentally see this this this rise of, you know, you know, increasing quantification in case increasing digital services, the adoption of, Internet of things and sensor networks and automatically, reported and, real time data streams and other things like that. And these methods are just simply not the type of things that you would typically get within a traditional public affairs frame of coursework and stuff like that. So we saw the need to create something new and to and to help tap into this, as well.\n\nSpeaker 0: I, like perhaps many other listeners of the program, haven't themselves been involved in the creation of an academic program, much less one that's, like, in this specific area. Could you talk to us a little bit about, like, what the process is like to put something like this together?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, sure. So, particularly at a state institution, there's quite a few quite a few boards and and committees and subcommittees and and other things that you have to, you have to, to to do. So anytime you start a new degree program, you're going to have to justify it based on these principles that are, laid out by the offices or the administration that, you know, there has to be a need, that it has to align with the university's mission and and that of the Illinois Board of Higher Education, that, you know, that you've got estimate enrollments and, you know, we wanna make sure that we're not just duplicating the same thing that had been done before or, or even within the institution, creating different versions of the same program that that kind of just skeletonize each other. So even at the beginning, it's like you have to do your background research to say, here is something that, is fundamentally different, and here's the reason why we we think this is something worthy of of dedicating, you know, an entire educational track to. There's having to go to other academic units across the university system, and and talk to them about, you know, how can we can incorporate some of your coursework, for students who wanna take electives or are looking for other things like that and and to assure them that we're not in the you know, to coming in there to to sort of to take their space and stuff like that, or or occupy their space, if you will.\n\nThen you have to go to a department departmental commit departmental committee meeting and convince your colleagues in your media department, yeah, this is something we could do. We have the faculty resources. We have, either have the faculty or we can hire the people we need to to to train the you know, to run this thing. We have the resources to make it work and all that stuff like that. Then it goes up to the college where all the departments within the college look at those.\n\nThen it then it ends up moving up to the faculty senate and then, up to the board of trustees and, has to be approved by, you know, not only the, you know, the graduate faculty of of of the of the university, but the provost and the chancellor and then, and the board of trustees. And then finally, it goes up to the Illinois Board of Higher Education, which, reviews these programs to you know, before issuing a final type thing. So it's a long drawn out process, and I I know that many people who might know me from the civic technology space, you know, I started coming to meetups and try hack nights, you know, almost two years ago. And I said, here's something that we're working on. It's coming down the pipe.\n\nYou know? And, you know, I I don't think anybody got impatient about it, but, you know, it always just seemed like this thing that was far off. But, you know, there's always a tremendous degree of care and process to these type things. But, you know, you know, we finally got it approved in April or sorry, in August, 2019. And, and and, you know, now I'm able to talk about it, and and here we are.\n\nSpeaker 0: So as you went through all of that, were there any lessons learned you picked up along the way that you'd be willing to share with us?\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, irrespective if you're starting a degree or or if you're starting a new organization in the tech space or something like that, I think it's really incumbent upon you to bring people aboard. We we were able to get different, members of the civic technology community, and, institutions who reviewed our proposal and everything like that. I think it's really important that, you know, if you're gonna launch something is that you get buy in from the community itself, that you you do what you can to support them and don't, you know, don't come in and just stake your flag and say, this is us now, that, you know, we're really here to be part of this community, to contribute to it both in terms of of service and and and maybe, you know, you know, a financial component as well. But, yeah, I think the biggest thing is bring people aboard. Let them know what's coming down the pipe, and, you'd be surprised how much that how far that goes into helping you get things done.\n\nSpeaker 0: Taking a step back and and looking, at the program, maybe from the perspective of someone who's looking at this and kinda trying to to figure out what what it is and what it would mean for them if they were interested in it. Could we talk about the differentiation of a program like this versus something like a public administration program or a public policy program?\n\nSpeaker 1: Traditionally, our programs had been our graduate programs had been anchored by the MPA. The MPA, the master of public administration, is a degree that is primarily seated in, for, you know, for people who want to to lead government you know, public organizations, be they government and nonprofits, you know, that they they're they're looking for managerial roles. They're looking for leadership roles. They're looking for, kind of positions that have them administering people. The the type of coursework is things like financing, finance and budgeting, organizational culture and and management, ethics, strategic planning, program evaluation, these type of things that deal with, you know, that that laws and policies have to be implemented.\n\nThey have to be staffed. People have to get paid. There are, you know, procedures, labor relations, all that other stuff like that. So an MPA is very much anchored in that that idea of of running a public organization. The master public policy is a bit different.\n\nIt's it's more in terms of crafting solutions to legislative intent. It's there's it's a bit more quantitative. Generally, it's it's anchored in, more advanced kind of statistical analysis, a greater emphasis on program evaluation, economics. You're much it's a much more technical kind of analyst style position that is is for people who really want to dig into the nuances of of of policy and and be able to turn those into, you know, into, programs and and rules and administrative kind of, things that are implemented by those in public administration. So that's kind of, like, you know, the big you know, the big picture of, you know, what the MPA and MPP are.\n\nNow switch switching over to civic analytics is that, this is a much kind of different thing. And, fundamentally, and it's different is that we we see a lot more of these people that, they're advanced analysts that the degree of statistical research method kind of training is is much more intense. Knowledge of data science principles, be they sort of database, programming languages, web scraping, the infrastructure of data, privacy, ensuring security. Yeah. There's there's a lot of principles that that deal with the things that are specific.\n\nI think you would find there's quite a bit of overlap, say, with, in in some of the core principles of data science, data science field and data science programs that are field in specific. But but particularly in terms of civic analytics is that it's one of the defining features I, you know, I feel in the defining features that differentiates this this degree from general principles of data science just as the MPA is fundamentally different from the MBA or the master of business administration is that, you know, our the the mission of public agencies are so is so much different. You know, it's to to ensure, you know, the the public interest, to to protect the environment, to, ensure social equity, provide, you know, equitable transport transportation to ensure democracy, to protect citizen privacy and stuff like that. So in sort of the the big scheme of things is that the the commitment to the public interest and the public mission is the thing that really defines, even civic analytics from other data science programs. And I think that's one of the things that we really want to impart upon, you know, you know, people who are listening to this at home is that you're going to get the data science fundamentals.\n\nYou're going to get those understandings of those those principles that you get, but it's like that you're also going to get a lot of that information. You know, you're gonna get a lot of training in government institutions, the nonprofit sector, its culture, civic accountability, just a lot of these different elements of the public sector that are that that fundamentally change the nature of the discussions and coursework and and the methodologies that you're going to use to solve these problems.\n\nSpeaker 0: Looking at the sort of skills that you've you've talked about there that that come out of that civic civic analytics program, what sort of career endeavors do you think are are best served by by those gains through the program?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, yeah. So, yeah, it's quite a bit, that we we foresee that, you know, the type of people with these skills are gonna be desirable, you know, and all sorts of types of government, you know, local, state, federal, large nonprofit, you know, even medium sized nonprofits, government consultancies and, services, units, and things like that. People are going to have titles like analysts, information officers. You know, senior ones are gonna be chief information officers or chief data officers, data specialists, spatial analysts. We see kind of a rise of data informed journalism.\n\nI think, ProPublica Illinois has really shown kind of the potential here in kind of the Chicago area that, you know, here's here's, you know, types of journalism that are informed directly by relying on open data and FOIA and other things like that. And and, you know, rather than just kind of looking for government documents, but but being able to use government government open data as a way to do investigative journalism is is something that's of real interest. Nonprofit groups, nonprofit advocacy, organizations, federal government. You have people who are, you know, working diplomacy. Some, you know, perhaps in the national security community and stuff like that.\n\nSo, yeah, we see you know, anywhere there's data in places where where, data can be optimized, it can be improved, that it can be integrated across siloed kind of, you know, information silos and units and stuff like that. We we think that there's going to be a need for these, for people in these these kind of positions, and we, you know, think that looking at some of the estimates that, various various units have, put out there that, you know, there's already a shortage in some of these, in these areas, and there's definitely a need for for people who can specialize on, you know, the the type of methodological rigor that's needed to really make, derive use, useful information from the data that government collects.\n\nSpeaker 0: As I was looking around, through the the the material about this program, one thing that stuck out to me is that y'all include a course, about data science ethics, along with the the others. Could you tell us a little bit about, the aims of that sort of course and the intention behind its placement?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So the idea of of data science ethics is that, you know, there's all sorts of you know, if if you study kind of theory about the use of data that, you know, data doesn't always work the way it's intended. It can be misused. It can be misapplied. It can be selectively disclosed.\n\nIt can be leaked. You know, databases can be breached, because of inadequate security and other things like that. And I think that, you know, that you know, if you're like me, from time to time, you probably get an email from, you know, a different either credit monitoring agency or or some sort of service that says that, you know, your your information might have possibly been, you know, disclosed in a breach. You know? It doesn't matter if it's, you know, if if your Facebook account or a dating website or something like that.\n\nAnd, you know, as much as that as bad as that is, a lot of the times, you know, the remedy is just to, you know, to ensure that, you know, change your password word and and all that other stuff like that. But in the public sector, you know, data, you know, we have a lot of data that has, you know, substantial role in in in our identities as people be it, you know, Social Security numbers, health data, military service records. You know, all these type of things lead to, you know, being enrolled or, qualification for, you know, the the the key to who we are and they're key to our you know, being able to navigate kind of the reality that we live in and stuff like that. So, so having, you know, security and and and and thinking, you know, those sort of aspects is is important. But, you know, the ethics of of how data is used, there's there's kind of this line in in research that has to deal with instrumental rationality and this idea of quantification bias that, that when you create tools that if you digitize everything and you reduce the complexity of the individual down to just, another number or another line in the spreadsheet or other things like that, that it tends it tends to become easier for you to make difficult decisions or when you automate decision making or, you know, you're you're kind of reducing the dimensionality of people from, you know, from from human beings into just a, you know, a one or a zero on a spreadsheet.\n\nAnd particularly when you're dealing with, you know, democracy and democratic institutions and public accountability, and, and and real lives and stuff like that is that we can't fall into that trap, that cognitive trap of just just being well. This is what the algorithm proposed, you know, that you can you can create or widen social or economic inequality. You can completely miss entire communities because of surveyed nonresponse and and missing data. So our, you know, our our partners and myself, when creating this degree said that we we absolutely have to anchor this degree in the idea of ethical public service, of understanding the the the possibilities and and and the the challenges of of using some of these tools. And we want to, from the outset, get it in the people's minds that, you know, that this isn't all just you know, this isn't we're not trying to get, you know you know, we're not selling advertising.\n\nWe're not, trying to optimize sales records or other things like that. You know, we're dealing with people's lives here, and we need to to have a bit more understanding of the ethical dilemmas that posit themselves when you're using this type of data, you know, in ways that you wouldn't find in the private sector.\n\nSpeaker 0: It sounds like it very much feeds back into some of those, skills we were talking about that were, like, really focused on, I guess, like, the public interest part of a program like this. Am I hearing that that correctly?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Certainly. You know, a lot of the early entrance in this this space of data science, you know, might have came from computer science programs or come from, you know, data or information sciences and never really got the chance to contemplate the the sort of complexities of the phenomenon that that they're working at. So I think in some part, that that's one of our intentionality is that, you know, that we can't just focus on the tools themselves.\n\nWe can't just focus on the methods, and and just making the most wham bam best visualizations and the prettiest maps and all that other stuff like that is that we really have to understand the depth to which, civic technology and and the depth to which these, these technologies drive decision making and and and influence people's lives. And, yeah, that that commitment to the public interest, you know, is the core, you know, the you know, it's the civic of the analytic you know, civic analytics component. So we're really looking at what is the nature of civil society and civic technology and and how do we promote the public interest through its use.\n\nSpeaker 0: Speaking of folks that might be looking to enter a program like this, from, I would imagine, a varying degree of different backgrounds, what sort of qualities, do you all typically look for in a prospective candidate for this program?\n\nSpeaker 1: I guess one of the things about, the field of public affairs is that we're not, you know, that in a lot of fields and disciplines, if you say if you wanted to get a master's of chemistry, you'd probably you'd have a bachelor's of chemistry. It would be like the, you know, just the at a base level is that that, you know, that that sort of prerequisite. The great thing about public affairs programs for the most part is that, you know, there's such a diverse manifestation of public service that there really isn't perfect majors. You know, there are some traditional feeders like political science, undergrad public policy, economics, sociology, and stuff like that. But, you know, I've taught students who've had degrees in divinity and and, you know, French literature and other stuff like that, particularly in our MPA program because, you know, if if you did get a degree in art performance, the best way to kinda make a career of out of art performance after you, you know, perhaps, stop performing is that you might run a nonprofit or a theater or, some sort of organization.\n\nSo, you know, teach people to run those things. So so yeah. So I you know, not not rambling on too much, but, but we don't have a at at the outset, a set type. But that being said, the people who I've been interacting with so far since we've announced the program is that we tend to you know, we find people who, in public health, political science, economics, computer science, public policy, bunch of people who've kind of been in this public realm a little bit or or in the technical realm and that are either looking to understand the appreciation, you know, their computer science or information sciences, people who want to get that, you know, have have great preparation in coding and statistics and all that stuff and and really want to to do the the public affairs side, or you have public affairs people who want to really nerd out on their kinda technical side. But, yeah, I mean, we have, you know, you know, GPA requirements and, and stuff like that.\n\nBut I think, you know, at a at a minimum, the type of things you know, qualities, we're looking for people who are inquisitive. We're looking for people who have a strong commitment to to the public sector. We like people who are innovative, who are constantly looking for, you know, just put their neck out a little bit sometimes to to create an you know, it's like, you know, I wanna create something new. I wanna, I see a way to to to solve a problem that hasn't been done before. So I wouldn't say I'd say they're less traditional than, you know, we you you might find in other kind of public affairs disciplines.\n\nBut, yeah, I also say part of the degree requirement is that you have, taken at least you know, taken a class in statistics, that covers inferential, research methods, you know, regression and maybe logistic regression. Because if you're gonna get a degree in applied statistics and data science, you should have, you know, at least some experience having taken a course to know that if that that's something for you. We can train you, on a lot of the elements that you know, a lot of the the elements of of public sector data science, but, we also find, you know, some people, if it's evidenced at all throughout the civic technology community, there's a there's a tremendous amount of people who self teach themselves particular technical skills or, supplemental skills, you know, whether it's taking, you know, like, they know r and they wanna learn Python, or they know Python, they wanna learn r, or they wanna learn a particular coding language or something like that. So the type of people who, you know, we can we can teach you a lot of stuff, but the the the network of programs and development environments and visualization tools and stuff like that is constantly evolving.\n\nSo I think people who are innovators but who love to learn and and and are are self motivated are really the type of people that we're looking for.\n\nSpeaker 0: For a listener out there that's keen on what they've heard so far and they're they're thinking about this, like, you know, I I think I might be interested in a program like this. What would be the best way for them to voice that interest into to engage with y'all?\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, I'm I'm willing to schedule a call or or Skype or, you know, respond to questions over emails and stuff like that because I know, you know, this is kind of a different animal than things that have been proposed, before. And and, you know, there's not very many public sector data science programs, so there's gonna be a lot of questions just by the the nature of occupying this space. So I'd say, you know, reach out to me. The you know, my email address, s w k l e I n or swklein@uic.edu. That's one great that's one great way of of getting in touch with me.\n\nI'm, you know, I'm always happy to answer questions. You know, our our website has details about the degree requirements, the curriculum, the, admissions procedure, deadlines, and whatnot. And I can also direct you to some of our administrative staff who can tell you about, you know, opportunities for funding, graduate, research and teaching assistantships. But, also, I'd say one thing. I manage our department's, Twitter account, and I think one thing that that a lot of programs don't always, you know, that do well at exposing is, like, what is the intellectual life at a university or a particular department like?\n\nAnd I've tried to do my best to to show, you know, who our faculty are, who our students are, the type of events that we we we hold and host. You know, we've got our UIC urban forum that's, coming up next Thursday, that that is focusing on the rise of autonomous vehicles, how to regulate them, what sort of policy is needed. So, you know, just we have events. We have faculty research. We've got people traveling overseas at the moment and and and all the time, you know, presenting at conferences and stuff like that.\n\nSo I'd say, you know, to to look at us not only as a, you know, this, you know, this degree granting program, but but look at the the intellectual life of of the department and and look at kind of what we offer in terms of the whole experience, and the opportunities that we can provide you to to, you know, to study, but also to, you know, to become part of this kind of wider public affairs community.\n\nSpeaker 0: Steven, again, I wanna thank you so much for, coming on to Civic Tech Chat. As is tradition with this program, we leave a space at the end of the episode for the guests to tell us, like, what sort of things we should be thinking about as we depart this episode. So for you and for this episode, what would that be?\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, I appreciate the opportunity to to talk about this sort of program. You know, I I feel very, you know, I'm very pleased to be kind of in this space and that that, you know, a program like this exists. For for those of you out there who who are looking for you're looking for something that is different. You're looking for something that, combines a lot of divergent kind of loves, you know, be technology, public interest, social good, and, you know, the the kind of, old adage about being the change you wanna see in the world. Let's say, you know, I'd ask you to check us out.\n\nWe we we wanna be on this edge of innovation. We want to be part of the civic technology, you know, the broader civic technology community. And and, we're even kind of working with with our you know, within the field to help establish, you know, this this idea of public sector data science is something that, a greater emphasis, in our field and and and throughout society. So, if you're interested in these programs, if you're interested in, the type of advocacy and and career paths, we really feel, you know, from our research that this is going to be a data literacy, data competency. The ubiquity of data technologies and information sciences is something that, you know, change has been coming.\n\nIt's accelerating. It's it's gonna be a useful skill that is going to serve you well. And and, and if you're really looking to be on the edge, you know, the tip of the spear when it comes to public service and towards improving society, we think this is going to be, you know, one of the most direct paths to to being, you know, in that kind of new reality. So please don't hesitate to reach out. We're really happy to answer your questions, and, I'm really happy to to talk with you.\n\nAnd, and I appreciate the opportunity to being able to to talk with you and and have your ear here today.\n\nSpeaker 0: You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.71999997, "end": 1.22 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement.", "start": 1.5999999, "end": 7.54 }, { "text": "We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere.", "start": 7.8399997, "end": 13.94 }, { "text": "Before we get into the episode, I do wanna give you that friendly reminder that if you've liked this content so far, you should hop on over to your podcast app to give us a five star review.", "start": 14.16, "end": 24.795 }, { "text": "Doing so helps us reach a broader audience and helps motivate folks like me to make more of these episodes.", "start": 25.335, "end": 31.01 } ], "start": 0.71999997, "end": 31.01, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So really a win win.", "start": 31.47, "end": 32.85 }, { "text": "All that said, let's go ahead and hop right in.", "start": 33.39, "end": 36.85 }, { "text": "Steven, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 38.510002, "end": 43.41 }, { "text": "Could you take a moment to tell us a bit about who you are and what you do?", "start": 43.635, "end": 47.954998 } ], "start": 31.47, "end": 47.954998, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 47.954998, "end": 48.454998 }, { "text": "Thanks, Ryan.", "start": 49.875, "end": 50.515 }, { "text": "My name is doctor Steven Kleinschmidt.", "start": 50.754997, "end": 52.454998 }, { "text": "I am the director of the new master of science in civic civic analytics program at the University of Illinois, at Chicago.", "start": 52.675, "end": 60.17 }, { "text": "It's a new data science program in the public sector.", "start": 60.71, "end": 64.57 } ], "start": 47.954998, "end": 64.57, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I've been slated to lead that.", "start": 64.95, "end": 66.31 }, { "text": "I had, a lead role in helping to develop it, and, I guess we'll kind of iron out a lot of this, in this kind of, coming conversation.", "start": 66.31, "end": 77.225 } ], "start": 64.95, "end": 77.225, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One of the things we ask about often on these episodes is about this idea of personal why.", "start": 78.325, "end": 84.024994 }, { "text": "So, Steven, for you, what is it that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do?", "start": 84.329994, "end": 89.31 } ], "start": 78.325, "end": 89.31, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I could say that, I've always been a bit of a builder that my interest in the public sector and and and data science and just broadly has been when I see a need, I see, something that I think should be done that, you know, often other people will you know, people will stand around and say, oh, it would be nice if somebody did that.", "start": 89.689995, "end": 109.055 }, { "text": "You know you know, it would be great if this were were to happen.", "start": 109.195, "end": 111.915 }, { "text": "I've always kind of been kind of in that role of, well, if not me, then then who?", "start": 111.915, "end": 117.76 }, { "text": "And and if not now, then when?", "start": 118.46, "end": 120.3 }, { "text": "So I guess that's one thing that's kinda typified, not only the creation of this degree, but some of the other things I've done.", "start": 120.3, "end": 126.78 } ], "start": 89.689995, "end": 126.78, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I created this conference, known as the Midwest Public Affairs Conference.", "start": 127.020004, "end": 131.47499 }, { "text": "I created an open, had I had a, import role in founding this, an open source, academic, open access academic journal in public affairs called the Journal of Public and Nonprofit Affairs.", "start": 132.19499, "end": 145.87 }, { "text": "I've got other things that I've kind of got in the shoot that, yeah, just this idea of when you see a need and you see an opportunity to lead and to build things that that may have value for for the public sector and for your field, I think that's kind of, my my mode of operation and and what that's what drives me is being a builder.", "start": 146.48999, "end": 167.85501 } ], "start": 127.020004, "end": 167.85501, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As you've gone along the way, have you come across any pieces of media, be they print, video, podcast, or or some other thing that you found to be especially inspiring or informative?", "start": 168.715, "end": 180.92 } ], "start": 168.715, "end": 180.92, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I guess, coming into this the sort of Chicago civic technology space, you know, I'd say probably one of the first and and ultimately, informative type of institutions that I ran across with Shy Hacknight.", "start": 181.94, "end": 195.635 }, { "text": "Just super interested in, you know, when I arrived here that, you know, I'd I'd kind of interacted with some smaller dispersed, groups and initiatives that met online and stuff like that, but I was really kind of blown away with their, the degree of their capacity and organization and, the innovation that was shown kind of in that, in those spaces.", "start": 196.495, "end": 217.45 }, { "text": "I guess, as as kinda traditional media well, I don't know if you call them traditional media, but, I've always been a fan of, e l g l, gov love, engaging local government leaders, has their own podcast series that, gov love that helps, inform people about what's being done in local government.", "start": 218.285, "end": 236.26 }, { "text": "I I guess that's coming from my experience as being a former urban planner and local government practitioner.", "start": 236.26, "end": 241.08 }, { "text": "And, also, for those of you who are kind of interested in sort of the academic realm of public affairs and public administration, There's a podcast series known as academics of PA, that, has gotten some pretty good talent, you know, some high level people, you know, thought leaders and researchers in the field of public administration and public affairs to go on and sort of talk about their motivations and their careers and stuff like that.", "start": 241.7, "end": 266.71 } ], "start": 181.94, "end": 266.71, "num_words": 245.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, I thought that that's been a pretty interesting, thing as well.", "start": 266.71, "end": 270.63 }, { "text": "So so, yeah, just, those those are kind of my choices is is the things that have kind of, inspired me both in the past and, these days.", "start": 270.63, "end": 278.775 } ], "start": 266.71, "end": 278.775, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I definitely appreciate you sharing those resources with us.", "start": 279.715, "end": 282.51498 }, { "text": "And as always, I'll go out and gather some links for the things that were mentioned here, and they'll be in the episode description.", "start": 282.51498, "end": 289.335 }, { "text": "To give the listener a little bit of context about the conversation we're about to have, could you tell us a little bit about the path you've taken thus far and how it's led you to where you are today?", "start": 290.32, "end": 300.1 } ], "start": 279.715, "end": 300.1, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Getting on the path of of this, of information sciences, I was always interested in technology and and kind of playing with tools and stuff like that, you know, computer based things even back in high school.", "start": 300.47998, "end": 314.985 }, { "text": "But, I'm I originally went to college.", "start": 314.985, "end": 317.39 }, { "text": "I started off as a computer science major.", "start": 317.39, "end": 319.49 }, { "text": "I moved to geography and GIS.", "start": 320.11002, "end": 322.61002 }, { "text": "Later, I'd become an urban planner, and, I think in part, it was that experience that informed me to get into academia as just seeing this kind of combination of technology, public sector applications, and and data and seeing how it was used.", "start": 323.55002, "end": 338.865 } ], "start": 300.47998, "end": 338.865, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Before I came to UIC, I was a professor at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.", "start": 339.245, "end": 343.985 }, { "text": "I I taught in the the the public, school public administration affairs there.", "start": 344.9, "end": 349.4 }, { "text": "So I guess it's been kind of this path that has always kind of intersected with, an interest in serving, the public, kind of an interest in education, but also technology.", "start": 349.86002, "end": 361.23502 }, { "text": "And I think that's kind of, you know, in getting here to getting here to UIC and seeing my my roles change that, I got here kind of to you know, I was hired to be the director of the master of public administration program and then saw this strategic opportunity to create a public sector data science degree program.", "start": 361.695, "end": 381.7 }, { "text": "And our our department school and, ultimately, the Illinois Board of Higher Education bought into this this vision.", "start": 382.08, "end": 388.495 } ], "start": 339.245, "end": 388.495, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And now I'm the director of this now.", "start": 388.495, "end": 390.175 }, { "text": "So I think in in in some terms that I think not only for me, but for probably people who are listening to this is that you probably felt something in the in your past that I love technology.", "start": 390.175, "end": 400.1 }, { "text": "I love data.", "start": 400.40002, "end": 401.28003 }, { "text": "I love that environment, but I also love to do good things in the public interest.", "start": 401.28003, "end": 406.74002 }, { "text": "And that's, I think, the kind of long game that that ended up being, you know, ending with the creation of this program that that's launching and stuff like that.", "start": 407.04, "end": 415.405 } ], "start": 388.495, "end": 415.405, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think that that kind of mindset probably appeals to quite a few of your listeners being here in the civic technology community.", "start": 415.405, "end": 421.425 } ], "start": 415.405, "end": 421.425, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I do believe that's probably the case, and I think that's a really good way to to segue us into our our main topic here, which is that civic analytics program that you were referring to there in your answer.", "start": 421.965, "end": 433.21 } ], "start": 421.965, "end": 433.21, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 433.27, "end": 433.59 } ], "start": 433.27, "end": 433.59, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To to get us started about that, could you give us the the, like, high level description or elevator pitch, kind of thing for, what this program is all about?", "start": 433.59, "end": 442.665 } ], "start": 433.59, "end": 442.665, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 443.045, "end": 443.365 }, { "text": "I guess in the the very short, you know, the big data for the public sector, data science for the public sector, that a new type of public servant that is anchored in, the traditions of, applied statistics, data science, and, but also trained within the particular constraints, culture, and democratic realities, behind public institutions.", "start": 443.365, "end": 470.405 }, { "text": "So, so in in a contrast to the private sector, you know, focused on on, economic max maximization and business development and other things like that.", "start": 470.70502, "end": 482.48 }, { "text": "Our our our our mission is very much to take these technologies and apply it to to the public interest and and be able to create a more accountable and, efficient government.", "start": 482.48, "end": 492.58 } ], "start": 443.045, "end": 492.58, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I imagine your work in in putting a program like this together was something that took quite a bit of time investment, energy investment, and intention on your part as well as the parts of others.", "start": 493.425, "end": 504.485 }, { "text": "Could you tell us a little bit about the the why for your want to, put together a program like this?", "start": 504.625, "end": 510.23 } ], "start": 493.425, "end": 510.23, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 510.77, "end": 511.16998 }, { "text": "I guess, in part, we'd already kind of anchored the idea of, of of having a program like this.", "start": 511.65, "end": 519.65 }, { "text": "We had a existing, master of public administration degree that had a concentration in information technology and performance measurement that, already had some of these courses, that already had some of these, or at least had smaller versions of this course, coursework and and course sequence.", "start": 519.65, "end": 540.38 }, { "text": "And, I think it was in part because of some of the faculty in our college, the interest of students, kind of man looking at the trends in the field and some of the the movement of of early actors in public data science and, and just really getting this this idea, you know, with such an engaged civic technology community and such a significant number of organizations and, innovators in this space here in Chicago, we really felt that we had a, strategic opportunity to do something that had not really been fully, you know, explored in the field and and something that had not been kind of done before.", "start": 540.83997, "end": 578.835 }, { "text": "So I think in part, the strategic opportunities that, you know, we we, you know, have this this great city.", "start": 578.835, "end": 584.515 } ], "start": 510.77, "end": 584.515, "num_words": 197.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We have this, you know, the benefit of of an active civic technology, community.", "start": 584.515, "end": 589.655 }, { "text": "We have, all these institutions, private, public, nonprofit sector institutions that are engaged in this space.", "start": 589.795, "end": 596.89 }, { "text": "So we really felt that it would be it would be great to be able to to offer a unique educational experience that nobody else has done and kind of position ourselves as leaders, in in sort of the, this this intersection of civic technology and, data analytics.", "start": 596.89, "end": 614.285 } ], "start": 584.515, "end": 614.285, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You mentioned there were some trends in public, data science that helped nudge you along to to come to the conclusion that this was a was a need.", "start": 615.065, "end": 622.585 }, { "text": "Could Could you talk a little bit more about those?", "start": 622.585, "end": 624.41003 } ], "start": 615.065, "end": 624.41003, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 624.95, "end": 625.27 }, { "text": "I'm I've I've been, kind of doing some research on this for a white paper for one of our accrediting bodies.", "start": 625.51, "end": 630.79004 }, { "text": "So I've kind of been I was lucky just to have this kind of in my head, as of late.", "start": 630.79004, "end": 636.09 }, { "text": "So, you know, as you know, we we've been growing as an information society for for quite a while now.", "start": 636.825, "end": 642.745 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 642.745, "end": 643.385 } ], "start": 624.95, "end": 643.385, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, when it comes to academic programs and data science, ever since 2007, when the first master's programs in data analytics was was begun, we've seen this sort of explosion of degree programs and, employment opportunities, in in data science, kind of agnostic of sector or, you know, in in the private sector and and whatnot.", "start": 643.625, "end": 665.89496 }, { "text": "Starting in around, 2014, you start the you saw the rise of early entrance, early kind of, programs that that wanted to establish this, you know, that they were seeing significant opportune need for people who are specifically trained in, principles of data science, you know, in part to be able to better utilize government data to to deal with some of the the same technologies and, regulatory considerations that were being driven by the the private sector and stuff like that.", "start": 666.915, "end": 700.59503 }, { "text": "So I I think it was in part just the need for the public sector to catch up where society was kind of, you know, particularly the private sector was was running full speed that the public sector was kind of, just lagging a little bit behind, in kind of a responsive mode.", "start": 700.59503, "end": 715.62 }, { "text": "But, yeah, I guess it's this, we definitely see the need for this these type of of of people and and, in organizations and employers.", "start": 715.75995, "end": 724.86505 } ], "start": 643.625, "end": 724.86505, "num_words": 216.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You see the rise of, you know, new agencies of, you know, like, city information offices, new positions for people who optimize, transit routes, people who are working in in the nonprofits that depend on on government derived and open data and even generate data themselves and stuff like that.", "start": 724.92505, "end": 744.75 }, { "text": "So we fundamentally see this this this rise of, you know, you know, increasing quantification in case increasing digital services, the adoption of, Internet of things and sensor networks and automatically, reported and, real time data streams and other things like that.", "start": 744.75, "end": 765.07 }, { "text": "And these methods are just simply not the type of things that you would typically get within a traditional public affairs frame of coursework and stuff like that.", "start": 765.07, "end": 775.15 }, { "text": "So we saw the need to create something new and to and to help tap into this, as well.", "start": 775.15, "end": 780.085 } ], "start": 724.92505, "end": 780.085, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I, like perhaps many other listeners of the program, haven't themselves been involved in the creation of an academic program, much less one that's, like, in this specific area.", "start": 780.545, "end": 790.085 }, { "text": "Could you talk to us a little bit about, like, what the process is like to put something like this together?", "start": 790.225, "end": 794.8 } ], "start": 780.545, "end": 794.8, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, sure.", "start": 795.42, "end": 796.06006 }, { "text": "So, particularly at a state institution, there's quite a few quite a few boards and and committees and subcommittees and and other things that you have to, you have to, to to do.", "start": 796.54004, "end": 810.235 }, { "text": "So anytime you start a new degree program, you're going to have to justify it based on these principles that are, laid out by the offices or the administration that, you know, there has to be a need, that it has to align with the university's mission and and that of the Illinois Board of Higher Education, that, you know, that you've got estimate enrollments and, you know, we wanna make sure that we're not just duplicating the same thing that had been done before or, or even within the institution, creating different versions of the same program that that kind of just skeletonize each other.", "start": 810.555, "end": 847.69995 }, { "text": "So even at the beginning, it's like you have to do your background research to say, here is something that, is fundamentally different, and here's the reason why we we think this is something worthy of of dedicating, you know, an entire educational track to.", "start": 847.69995, "end": 862.735 }, { "text": "There's having to go to other academic units across the university system, and and talk to them about, you know, how can we can incorporate some of your coursework, for students who wanna take electives or are looking for other things like that and and to assure them that we're not in the you know, to coming in there to to sort of to take their space and stuff like that, or or occupy their space, if you will.", "start": 863.115, "end": 885.77997 } ], "start": 795.42, "end": 885.77997, "num_words": 265.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Then you have to go to a department departmental commit departmental committee meeting and convince your colleagues in your media department, yeah, this is something we could do.", "start": 885.92, "end": 897.09503 }, { "text": "We have the faculty resources.", "start": 897.09503, "end": 898.555 }, { "text": "We have, either have the faculty or we can hire the people we need to to to train the you know, to run this thing.", "start": 898.775, "end": 904.96 }, { "text": "We have the resources to make it work and all that stuff like that.", "start": 905.18, "end": 907.9 }, { "text": "Then it goes up to the college where all the departments within the college look at those.", "start": 908.46, "end": 913.065 } ], "start": 885.92, "end": 913.065, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Then it then it ends up moving up to the faculty senate and then, up to the board of trustees and, has to be approved by, you know, not only the, you know, the graduate faculty of of of the of the university, but the provost and the chancellor and then, and the board of trustees.", "start": 913.445, "end": 931.94 }, { "text": "And then finally, it goes up to the Illinois Board of Higher Education, which, reviews these programs to you know, before issuing a final type thing.", "start": 931.94, "end": 940.975 }, { "text": "So it's a long drawn out process, and I I know that many people who might know me from the civic technology space, you know, I started coming to meetups and try hack nights, you know, almost two years ago.", "start": 940.975, "end": 952.81494 }, { "text": "And I said, here's something that we're working on.", "start": 952.81494, "end": 954.65497 }, { "text": "It's coming down the pipe.", "start": 954.65497, "end": 955.95496 } ], "start": 913.445, "end": 955.95496, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 956.31, "end": 956.71 }, { "text": "And, you know, I I don't think anybody got impatient about it, but, you know, it always just seemed like this thing that was far off.", "start": 956.71, "end": 962.87 }, { "text": "But, you know, there's always a tremendous degree of care and process to these type things.", "start": 962.87, "end": 967.51 }, { "text": "But, you know, you know, we finally got it approved in April or sorry, in August, 2019.", "start": 967.51, "end": 973.065 }, { "text": "And, and and, you know, now I'm able to talk about it, and and here we are.", "start": 973.065, "end": 977.08496 } ], "start": 956.31, "end": 977.08496, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So as you went through all of that, were there any lessons learned you picked up along the way that you'd be willing to share with us?", "start": 977.70496, "end": 985.08496 } ], "start": 977.70496, "end": 985.08496, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, irrespective if you're starting a degree or or if you're starting a new organization in the tech space or something like that, I think it's really incumbent upon you to bring people aboard.", "start": 985.50995, "end": 994.97 }, { "text": "We we were able to get different, members of the civic technology community, and, institutions who reviewed our proposal and everything like that.", "start": 995.43, "end": 1005.635 }, { "text": "I think it's really important that, you know, if you're gonna launch something is that you get buy in from the community itself, that you you do what you can to support them and don't, you know, don't come in and just stake your flag and say, this is us now, that, you know, we're really here to be part of this community, to contribute to it both in terms of of service and and and maybe, you know, you know, a financial component as well.", "start": 1005.695, "end": 1026.98 }, { "text": "But, yeah, I think the biggest thing is bring people aboard.", "start": 1026.98, "end": 1029.94 }, { "text": "Let them know what's coming down the pipe, and, you'd be surprised how much that how far that goes into helping you get things done.", "start": 1029.94, "end": 1036.6549 } ], "start": 985.50995, "end": 1036.6549, "num_words": 180.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Taking a step back and and looking, at the program, maybe from the perspective of someone who's looking at this and kinda trying to to figure out what what it is and what it would mean for them if they were interested in it.", "start": 1037.115, "end": 1049.15 }, { "text": "Could we talk about the differentiation of a program like this versus something like a public administration program or a public policy program?", "start": 1049.53, "end": 1057.39 } ], "start": 1037.115, "end": 1057.39, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Traditionally, our programs had been our graduate programs had been anchored by the MPA.", "start": 1057.995, "end": 1063.375 }, { "text": "The MPA, the master of public administration, is a degree that is primarily seated in, for, you know, for people who want to to lead government you know, public organizations, be they government and nonprofits, you know, that they they're they're looking for managerial roles.", "start": 1063.995, "end": 1079.86 }, { "text": "They're looking for leadership roles.", "start": 1079.86, "end": 1081.48 }, { "text": "They're looking for, kind of positions that have them administering people.", "start": 1081.7, "end": 1087.3999 }, { "text": "The the type of coursework is things like financing, finance and budgeting, organizational culture and and management, ethics, strategic planning, program evaluation, these type of things that deal with, you know, that that laws and policies have to be implemented.", "start": 1088.875, "end": 1106.59 } ], "start": 1057.995, "end": 1106.59, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They have to be staffed.", "start": 1106.65, "end": 1107.87 }, { "text": "People have to get paid.", "start": 1108.01, "end": 1109.39 }, { "text": "There are, you know, procedures, labor relations, all that other stuff like that.", "start": 1109.77, "end": 1114.09 }, { "text": "So an MPA is very much anchored in that that idea of of running a public organization.", "start": 1114.09, "end": 1119.395 }, { "text": "The master public policy is a bit different.", "start": 1120.255, "end": 1122.3351 } ], "start": 1106.65, "end": 1122.3351, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's it's more in terms of crafting solutions to legislative intent.", "start": 1122.5751, "end": 1127.715 }, { "text": "It's there's it's a bit more quantitative.", "start": 1128.8151, "end": 1130.87 }, { "text": "Generally, it's it's anchored in, more advanced kind of statistical analysis, a greater emphasis on program evaluation, economics.", "start": 1131.3301, "end": 1142.0701 }, { "text": "You're much it's a much more technical kind of analyst style position that is is for people who really want to dig into the nuances of of of policy and and be able to turn those into, you know, into, programs and and rules and administrative kind of, things that are implemented by those in public administration.", "start": 1143.345, "end": 1164.18 }, { "text": "So that's kind of, like, you know, the big you know, the big picture of, you know, what the MPA and MPP are.", "start": 1164.2401, "end": 1171.4401 } ], "start": 1122.5751, "end": 1171.4401, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Now switch switching over to civic analytics is that, this is a much kind of different thing.", "start": 1171.4401, "end": 1177.835 }, { "text": "And, fundamentally, and it's different is that we we see a lot more of these people that, they're advanced analysts that the degree of statistical research method kind of training is is much more intense.", "start": 1177.835, "end": 1190.8401 }, { "text": "Knowledge of data science principles, be they sort of database, programming languages, web scraping, the infrastructure of data, privacy, ensuring security.", "start": 1191.78, "end": 1203.3151 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1204.415, "end": 1204.655 }, { "text": "There's there's a lot of principles that that deal with the things that are specific.", "start": 1204.655, "end": 1209.135 } ], "start": 1171.4401, "end": 1209.135, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think you would find there's quite a bit of overlap, say, with, in in some of the core principles of data science, data science field and data science programs that are field in specific.", "start": 1209.855, "end": 1221.5299 }, { "text": "But but particularly in terms of civic analytics is that it's one of the defining features I, you know, I feel in the defining features that differentiates this this degree from general principles of data science just as the MPA is fundamentally different from the MBA or the master of business administration is that, you know, our the the mission of public agencies are so is so much different.", "start": 1222.39, "end": 1247.6699 }, { "text": "You know, it's to to ensure, you know, the the public interest, to to protect the environment, to, ensure social equity, provide, you know, equitable transport transportation to ensure democracy, to protect citizen privacy and stuff like that.", "start": 1247.73, "end": 1264.365 }, { "text": "So in sort of the the big scheme of things is that the the commitment to the public interest and the public mission is the thing that really defines, even civic analytics from other data science programs.", "start": 1264.365, "end": 1275.5 }, { "text": "And I think that's one of the things that we really want to impart upon, you know, you know, people who are listening to this at home is that you're going to get the data science fundamentals.", "start": 1275.64, "end": 1284.5349 } ], "start": 1209.855, "end": 1284.5349, "num_words": 216.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You're going to get those understandings of those those principles that you get, but it's like that you're also going to get a lot of that information.", "start": 1284.595, "end": 1292.375 }, { "text": "You know, you're gonna get a lot of training in government institutions, the nonprofit sector, its culture, civic accountability, just a lot of these different elements of the public sector that are that that fundamentally change the nature of the discussions and coursework and and the methodologies that you're going to use to solve these problems.", "start": 1292.755, "end": 1312.935 } ], "start": 1284.595, "end": 1312.935, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Looking at the sort of skills that you've you've talked about there that that come out of that civic civic analytics program, what sort of career endeavors do you think are are best served by by those gains through the program?", "start": 1313.3151, "end": 1324.855 } ], "start": 1313.3151, "end": 1324.855, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, yeah.", "start": 1325.61, "end": 1326.01 }, { "text": "So, yeah, it's quite a bit, that we we foresee that, you know, the type of people with these skills are gonna be desirable, you know, and all sorts of types of government, you know, local, state, federal, large nonprofit, you know, even medium sized nonprofits, government consultancies and, services, units, and things like that.", "start": 1326.41, "end": 1349.875 }, { "text": "People are going to have titles like analysts, information officers.", "start": 1351.08, "end": 1354.7 }, { "text": "You know, senior ones are gonna be chief information officers or chief data officers, data specialists, spatial analysts.", "start": 1355.24, "end": 1361.74 }, { "text": "We see kind of a rise of data informed journalism.", "start": 1363.0, "end": 1366.22 } ], "start": 1325.61, "end": 1366.22, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think, ProPublica Illinois has really shown kind of the potential here in kind of the Chicago area that, you know, here's here's, you know, types of journalism that are informed directly by relying on open data and FOIA and other things like that.", "start": 1366.915, "end": 1382.99 }, { "text": "And and, you know, rather than just kind of looking for government documents, but but being able to use government government open data as a way to do investigative journalism is is something that's of real interest.", "start": 1382.99, "end": 1395.555 }, { "text": "Nonprofit groups, nonprofit advocacy, organizations, federal government.", "start": 1396.255, "end": 1404.915 }, { "text": "You have people who are, you know, working diplomacy.", "start": 1405.615, "end": 1407.875 }, { "text": "Some, you know, perhaps in the national security community and stuff like that.", "start": 1408.0951, "end": 1411.83 } ], "start": 1366.915, "end": 1411.83, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, yeah, we see you know, anywhere there's data in places where where, data can be optimized, it can be improved, that it can be integrated across siloed kind of, you know, information silos and units and stuff like that.", "start": 1411.83, "end": 1426.6649 }, { "text": "We we think that there's going to be a need for these, for people in these these kind of positions, and we, you know, think that looking at some of the estimates that, various various units have, put out there that, you know, there's already a shortage in some of these, in these areas, and there's definitely a need for for people who can specialize on, you know, the the type of methodological rigor that's needed to really make, derive use, useful information from the data that government collects.", "start": 1427.2849, "end": 1457.695 } ], "start": 1411.83, "end": 1457.695, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As I was looking around, through the the the material about this program, one thing that stuck out to me is that y'all include a course, about data science ethics, along with the the others.", "start": 1458.155, "end": 1470.9501 }, { "text": "Could you tell us a little bit about, the aims of that sort of course and the intention behind its placement?", "start": 1471.17, "end": 1476.4701 } ], "start": 1458.155, "end": 1476.4701, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1477.505, "end": 1477.665 }, { "text": "So the idea of of data science ethics is that, you know, there's all sorts of you know, if if you study kind of theory about the use of data that, you know, data doesn't always work the way it's intended.", "start": 1477.665, "end": 1489.925 }, { "text": "It can be misused.", "start": 1490.0651, "end": 1491.125 }, { "text": "It can be misapplied.", "start": 1491.265, "end": 1492.165 }, { "text": "It can be selectively disclosed.", "start": 1492.385, "end": 1494.7001 } ], "start": 1477.505, "end": 1494.7001, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It can be leaked.", "start": 1495.3201, "end": 1496.38 }, { "text": "You know, databases can be breached, because of inadequate security and other things like that.", "start": 1497.24, "end": 1504.36 }, { "text": "And I think that, you know, that you know, if you're like me, from time to time, you probably get an email from, you know, a different either credit monitoring agency or or some sort of service that says that, you know, your your information might have possibly been, you know, disclosed in a breach.", "start": 1504.36, "end": 1521.35 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 1521.35, "end": 1521.6699 }, { "text": "It doesn't matter if it's, you know, if if your Facebook account or a dating website or something like that.", "start": 1521.6699, "end": 1527.0299 } ], "start": 1495.3201, "end": 1527.0299, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, as much as that as bad as that is, a lot of the times, you know, the remedy is just to, you know, to ensure that, you know, change your password word and and all that other stuff like that.", "start": 1527.0299, "end": 1536.535 }, { "text": "But in the public sector, you know, data, you know, we have a lot of data that has, you know, substantial role in in in our identities as people be it, you know, Social Security numbers, health data, military service records.", "start": 1536.535, "end": 1549.45 }, { "text": "You know, all these type of things lead to, you know, being enrolled or, qualification for, you know, the the the key to who we are and they're key to our you know, being able to navigate kind of the reality that we live in and stuff like that.", "start": 1550.47, "end": 1564.305 }, { "text": "So, so having, you know, security and and and and thinking, you know, those sort of aspects is is important.", "start": 1564.305, "end": 1572.865 }, { "text": "But, you know, the ethics of of how data is used, there's there's kind of this line in in research that has to deal with instrumental rationality and this idea of quantification bias that, that when you create tools that if you digitize everything and you reduce the complexity of the individual down to just, another number or another line in the spreadsheet or other things like that, that it tends it tends to become easier for you to make difficult decisions or when you automate decision making or, you know, you're you're kind of reducing the dimensionality of people from, you know, from from human beings into just a, you know, a one or a zero on a spreadsheet.", "start": 1572.865, "end": 1614.61 } ], "start": 1527.0299, "end": 1614.61, "num_words": 273.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And particularly when you're dealing with, you know, democracy and democratic institutions and public accountability, and, and and real lives and stuff like that is that we can't fall into that trap, that cognitive trap of just just being well.", "start": 1615.0701, "end": 1631.9099 }, { "text": "This is what the algorithm proposed, you know, that you can you can create or widen social or economic inequality.", "start": 1631.9099, "end": 1639.69 }, { "text": "You can completely miss entire communities because of surveyed nonresponse and and missing data.", "start": 1639.99, "end": 1646.265 }, { "text": "So our, you know, our our partners and myself, when creating this degree said that we we absolutely have to anchor this degree in the idea of ethical public service, of understanding the the the possibilities and and and the the challenges of of using some of these tools.", "start": 1646.485, "end": 1666.67 }, { "text": "And we want to, from the outset, get it in the people's minds that, you know, that this isn't all just you know, this isn't we're not trying to get, you know you know, we're not selling advertising.", "start": 1666.67, "end": 1677.035 } ], "start": 1615.0701, "end": 1677.035, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We're not, trying to optimize sales records or other things like that.", "start": 1677.255, "end": 1681.735 }, { "text": "You know, we're dealing with people's lives here, and we need to to have a bit more understanding of the ethical dilemmas that posit themselves when you're using this type of data, you know, in ways that you wouldn't find in the private sector.", "start": 1681.735, "end": 1692.24 } ], "start": 1677.255, "end": 1692.24, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It sounds like it very much feeds back into some of those, skills we were talking about that were, like, really focused on, I guess, like, the public interest part of a program like this.", "start": 1692.62, "end": 1701.945 }, { "text": "Am I hearing that that correctly?", "start": 1701.945, "end": 1703.405 } ], "start": 1692.62, "end": 1703.405, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, yeah.", "start": 1704.025, "end": 1704.505 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1704.505, "end": 1704.745 }, { "text": "Certainly.", "start": 1704.745, "end": 1705.245 }, { "text": "You know, a lot of the early entrance in this this space of data science, you know, might have came from computer science programs or come from, you know, data or information sciences and never really got the chance to contemplate the the sort of complexities of the phenomenon that that they're working at.", "start": 1705.305, "end": 1722.2999 }, { "text": "So I think in some part, that that's one of our intentionality is that, you know, that we can't just focus on the tools themselves.", "start": 1722.2999, "end": 1729.52 } ], "start": 1704.025, "end": 1729.52, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We can't just focus on the methods, and and just making the most wham bam best visualizations and the prettiest maps and all that other stuff like that is that we really have to understand the depth to which, civic technology and and the depth to which these, these technologies drive decision making and and and influence people's lives.", "start": 1729.66, "end": 1752.88 }, { "text": "And, yeah, that that commitment to the public interest, you know, is the core, you know, the you know, it's the civic of the analytic you know, civic analytics component.", "start": 1752.88, "end": 1762.875 }, { "text": "So we're really looking at what is the nature of civil society and civic technology and and how do we promote the public interest through its use.", "start": 1763.255, "end": 1773.355 } ], "start": 1729.66, "end": 1773.355, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Speaking of folks that might be looking to enter a program like this, from, I would imagine, a varying degree of different backgrounds, what sort of qualities, do you all typically look for in a prospective candidate for this program?", "start": 1774.39, "end": 1786.97 } ], "start": 1774.39, "end": 1786.97, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I guess one of the things about, the field of public affairs is that we're not, you know, that in a lot of fields and disciplines, if you say if you wanted to get a master's of chemistry, you'd probably you'd have a bachelor's of chemistry.", "start": 1787.195, "end": 1800.875 }, { "text": "It would be like the, you know, just the at a base level is that that, you know, that that sort of prerequisite.", "start": 1800.875, "end": 1807.2 }, { "text": "The great thing about public affairs programs for the most part is that, you know, there's such a diverse manifestation of public service that there really isn't perfect majors.", "start": 1807.82, "end": 1817.845 }, { "text": "You know, there are some traditional feeders like political science, undergrad public policy, economics, sociology, and stuff like that.", "start": 1817.845, "end": 1824.485 }, { "text": "But, you know, I've taught students who've had degrees in divinity and and, you know, French literature and other stuff like that, particularly in our MPA program because, you know, if if you did get a degree in art performance, the best way to kinda make a career of out of art performance after you, you know, perhaps, stop performing is that you might run a nonprofit or a theater or, some sort of organization.", "start": 1824.485, "end": 1848.035 } ], "start": 1787.195, "end": 1848.035, "num_words": 192.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, you know, teach people to run those things.", "start": 1848.035, "end": 1849.635 }, { "text": "So so yeah.", "start": 1849.635, "end": 1850.675 }, { "text": "So I you know, not not rambling on too much, but, but we don't have a at at the outset, a set type.", "start": 1850.675, "end": 1857.395 }, { "text": "But that being said, the people who I've been interacting with so far since we've announced the program is that we tend to you know, we find people who, in public health, political science, economics, computer science, public policy, bunch of people who've kind of been in this public realm a little bit or or in the technical realm and that are either looking to understand the appreciation, you know, their computer science or information sciences, people who want to get that, you know, have have great preparation in coding and statistics and all that stuff and and really want to to do the the public affairs side, or you have public affairs people who want to really nerd out on their kinda technical side.", "start": 1857.395, "end": 1899.27 }, { "text": "But, yeah, I mean, we have, you know, you know, GPA requirements and, and stuff like that.", "start": 1899.57, "end": 1907.255 } ], "start": 1848.035, "end": 1907.255, "num_words": 177.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I think, you know, at a at a minimum, the type of things you know, qualities, we're looking for people who are inquisitive.", "start": 1907.255, "end": 1912.875 }, { "text": "We're looking for people who have a strong commitment to to the public sector.", "start": 1913.415, "end": 1916.955 }, { "text": "We like people who are innovative, who are constantly looking for, you know, just put their neck out a little bit sometimes to to create an you know, it's like, you know, I wanna create something new.", "start": 1917.4099, "end": 1928.2899 }, { "text": "I wanna, I see a way to to to solve a problem that hasn't been done before.", "start": 1928.2899, "end": 1932.69 }, { "text": "So I wouldn't say I'd say they're less traditional than, you know, we you you might find in other kind of public affairs disciplines.", "start": 1932.69, "end": 1938.745 } ], "start": 1907.255, "end": 1938.745, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, yeah, I also say part of the degree requirement is that you have, taken at least you know, taken a class in statistics, that covers inferential, research methods, you know, regression and maybe logistic regression.", "start": 1938.805, "end": 1954.23 }, { "text": "Because if you're gonna get a degree in applied statistics and data science, you should have, you know, at least some experience having taken a course to know that if that that's something for you.", "start": 1954.77, "end": 1965.6469 }, { "text": "We can train you, on a lot of the elements that you know, a lot of the the elements of of public sector data science, but, we also find, you know, some people, if it's evidenced at all throughout the civic technology community, there's a there's a tremendous amount of people who self teach themselves particular technical skills or, supplemental skills, you know, whether it's taking, you know, like, they know r and they wanna learn Python, or they know Python, they wanna learn r, or they wanna learn a particular coding language or something like that.", "start": 1965.9545, "end": 1998.425 }, { "text": "So the type of people who, you know, we can we can teach you a lot of stuff, but the the the network of programs and development environments and visualization tools and stuff like that is constantly evolving.", "start": 1998.425, "end": 2010.95 } ], "start": 1938.805, "end": 2010.95, "num_words": 206.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think people who are innovators but who love to learn and and and are are self motivated are really the type of people that we're looking for.", "start": 2010.95, "end": 2020.65 } ], "start": 2010.95, "end": 2020.65, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For a listener out there that's keen on what they've heard so far and they're they're thinking about this, like, you know, I I think I might be interested in a program like this.", "start": 2021.005, "end": 2029.4249 }, { "text": "What would be the best way for them to voice that interest into to engage with y'all?", "start": 2029.725, "end": 2033.825 } ], "start": 2021.005, "end": 2033.825, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, I'm I'm willing to schedule a call or or Skype or, you know, respond to questions over emails and stuff like that because I know, you know, this is kind of a different animal than things that have been proposed, before.", "start": 2034.4401, "end": 2046.04 }, { "text": "And and, you know, there's not very many public sector data science programs, so there's gonna be a lot of questions just by the the nature of occupying this space.", "start": 2046.04, "end": 2055.4648 }, { "text": "So I'd say, you know, reach out to me.", "start": 2055.4648, "end": 2057.625 }, { "text": "The you know, my email address, s w k l e I n or swklein@uic.edu.", "start": 2057.625, "end": 2065.43 }, { "text": "That's one great that's one great way of of getting in touch with me.", "start": 2065.89, "end": 2069.41 } ], "start": 2034.4401, "end": 2069.41, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm, you know, I'm always happy to answer questions.", "start": 2069.41, "end": 2071.43 }, { "text": "You know, our our website has details about the degree requirements, the curriculum, the, admissions procedure, deadlines, and whatnot.", "start": 2072.3699, "end": 2082.845 }, { "text": "And I can also direct you to some of our administrative staff who can tell you about, you know, opportunities for funding, graduate, research and teaching assistantships.", "start": 2082.845, "end": 2091.03 }, { "text": "But, also, I'd say one thing.", "start": 2092.29, "end": 2093.83 }, { "text": "I manage our department's, Twitter account, and I think one thing that that a lot of programs don't always, you know, that do well at exposing is, like, what is the intellectual life at a university or a particular department like?", "start": 2094.29, "end": 2109.435 } ], "start": 2069.41, "end": 2109.435, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I've tried to do my best to to show, you know, who our faculty are, who our students are, the type of events that we we we hold and host.", "start": 2109.435, "end": 2119.27 }, { "text": "You know, we've got our UIC urban forum that's, coming up next Thursday, that that is focusing on the rise of autonomous vehicles, how to regulate them, what sort of policy is needed.", "start": 2119.57, "end": 2132.1848 }, { "text": "So, you know, just we have events.", "start": 2133.4448, "end": 2135.7048 }, { "text": "We have faculty research.", "start": 2135.765, "end": 2137.2048 }, { "text": "We've got people traveling overseas at the moment and and and all the time, you know, presenting at conferences and stuff like that.", "start": 2137.2048, "end": 2144.74 } ], "start": 2109.435, "end": 2144.74, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I'd say, you know, to to look at us not only as a, you know, this, you know, this degree granting program, but but look at the the intellectual life of of the department and and look at kind of what we offer in terms of the whole experience, and the opportunities that we can provide you to to, you know, to study, but also to, you know, to become part of this kind of wider public affairs community.", "start": 2144.74, "end": 2167.535 } ], "start": 2144.74, "end": 2167.535, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Steven, again, I wanna thank you so much for, coming on to Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 2168.73, "end": 2172.83 }, { "text": "As is tradition with this program, we leave a space at the end of the episode for the guests to tell us, like, what sort of things we should be thinking about as we depart this episode.", "start": 2173.29, "end": 2183.63 }, { "text": "So for you and for this episode, what would that be?", "start": 2184.465, "end": 2187.125 } ], "start": 2168.73, "end": 2187.125, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, I appreciate the opportunity to to talk about this sort of program.", "start": 2187.665, "end": 2190.965 }, { "text": "You know, I I feel very, you know, I'm very pleased to be kind of in this space and that that, you know, a program like this exists.", "start": 2191.0251, "end": 2200.6 }, { "text": "For for those of you out there who who are looking for you're looking for something that is different.", "start": 2201.3, "end": 2206.58 }, { "text": "You're looking for something that, combines a lot of divergent kind of loves, you know, be technology, public interest, social good, and, you know, the the kind of, old adage about being the change you wanna see in the world.", "start": 2206.58, "end": 2220.155 }, { "text": "Let's say, you know, I'd ask you to check us out.", "start": 2220.155, "end": 2223.115 } ], "start": 2187.665, "end": 2223.115, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We we we wanna be on this edge of innovation.", "start": 2223.5151, "end": 2226.0151 }, { "text": "We want to be part of the civic technology, you know, the broader civic technology community.", "start": 2226.155, "end": 2231.01 }, { "text": "And and, we're even kind of working with with our you know, within the field to help establish, you know, this this idea of public sector data science is something that, a greater emphasis, in our field and and and throughout society.", "start": 2231.01, "end": 2246.635 }, { "text": "So, if you're interested in these programs, if you're interested in, the type of advocacy and and career paths, we really feel, you know, from our research that this is going to be a data literacy, data competency.", "start": 2246.635, "end": 2261.2102 }, { "text": "The ubiquity of data technologies and information sciences is something that, you know, change has been coming.", "start": 2262.1501, "end": 2268.47 } ], "start": 2223.5151, "end": 2268.47, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's accelerating.", "start": 2268.47, "end": 2269.29 }, { "text": "It's it's gonna be a useful skill that is going to serve you well.", "start": 2269.875, "end": 2274.355 }, { "text": "And and, and if you're really looking to be on the edge, you know, the tip of the spear when it comes to public service and towards improving society, we think this is going to be, you know, one of the most direct paths to to being, you know, in that kind of new reality.", "start": 2274.355, "end": 2290.11 }, { "text": "So please don't hesitate to reach out.", "start": 2290.11, "end": 2291.95 }, { "text": "We're really happy to answer your questions, and, I'm really happy to to talk with you.", "start": 2291.95, "end": 2296.43 } ], "start": 2268.47, "end": 2296.43, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, and I appreciate the opportunity to being able to to talk with you and and have your ear here today.", "start": 2296.43, "end": 2302.365 } ], "start": 2296.43, "end": 2302.365, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat.", "start": 2303.4648, "end": 2307.9648 }, { "text": "Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "start": 2308.265, "end": 2315.405 } ], "start": 2303.4648, "end": 2315.405, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 0.71999997, "end": 1.22, "confidence": 0.9252163, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Hello.", "words": [ { "word": "hello", "start": 0.71999997, "end": 1.22, "confidence": 0.9252163, "punctuated_word": "Hello.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.25201565 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "917da514-d0ae-4da2-a95f-c8dfc09267b5" }, { "start": 1.5999999, "end": 15.86, "confidence": 0.9702274, "channel": 0, "transcript": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. 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