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Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. This time, we're gonna be talking about an organization called Code for America. It's a name you may have heard along the way if you've listened to episodes as there have been volunteers from that organization that have come on the program to talk a bit about initiatives they've had going on, including even their current CEO. But to catch folks up, why don't we talk a bit about what Code for America is? As I mentioned, it is a nonprofit, and one of the things they do is they partner with government at various levels to improve services delivery, often using techniques like human centered design. In a way, you could think of them a bit like a nonprofit consultancy as they attempt to create partnerships and promote good practices through their work. You might be familiar with some of the projects they've done, including the automatic records clearance work they've done in California, as well as the food benefits work they've done, the name of that being GetCalFresh, among others. A lot of their work is very focused on things that are involved in service delivery and things like the social safety net. But that's not the only portion of the organization that exists. There's also this thing called the network. But you might be wondering, well, what is the network, Ryan? It all comes back to this idea of there being these civic hacking groups that formed, and they've been around for quite a while. And the network kind of came along as a way to form social bonds between such groups, and these groups as these groups are spread across different cities all across the country. And really what they are are folks that have come together to attempt to volunteer their time, their skills, that sort of thing to help improve nonprofits, to help improve the way government service is delivered, etcetera. And the way that then involves Code for America is that folks from that nonprofit then engage with these groups of volunteers to help facilitate connections through things like communication tools that are provided as well as through events like Brigade Congress and Summit. What's interesting about this isn't so much that there's a grassroots organization out there of a bunch of kinda decentralized groups that are trying to improve their community, nor so much that there's a nonprofit that provides services and consulting to government. But the fact that there's kinda both of these things together under the same umbrella. And that kind of leads into the conversation we're gonna have today, which is about something called network revisioning. This is a project that was announced on a forum that Code for America uses on March 16, and it was described as an opportunity to revisit core questions about what the volunteer network is doing. Things like, why are we doing this? What is it we're trying to change? And what is our path forward? Initially, in that post, there was an outlying of some potential paths and the promise of a journey ahead toward a recommendation influenced heavily by the volunteers themselves. Over the past seven months, there has no doubt been a lot of learning that's happened and a lot of exploration. On this podcast for a long time, we've had this tradition of asking our guests, what is their personal why? The thing that drives them to get out of bed each morning and do what they do. In a way, what we're about to do today is ask that sort of question, but to an entire grassroots organization. To that end, we'll talk to folks that were a part of this process. We'll talk about why this is happening, how conversations happened, how data was analyzed, and a bit about the path to implementation. So let's start with why. To try to dig into that, I spoke to a group of folks that have been involved with this revisioning effort and with the volunteer network more generally for quite some time. So let's see what they had to say. Can each of you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? My name is Janet Michalis. I am co captain of Code for Dayton, and I've been for about seven years. And I'm also on the National Advisory Council for Code for America, the regional representative for the Central Area. And I'm in the second year of my second term, So I am in my last term limited time in this role. Hey. I'm Tim Leesman. I'm the co captain of code for Greensboro and was the cofacilitator of the data team during the the narrowing phase of revisioning, and I'm still working as a facilitator on a volunteer and partly paid position with Code for America right now. And I've been with Code for Greensboro for about three and a half years. My name is m Burnett. I use they, them pronouns. I'm the senior community manager at Code for America, and that's I work on the network team, a lot of, you know, managing how our community operates. And I am a longtime brigade member. I used to be on the National Advisory Council, so I've kind of been in the space for a while. And after taking a hiatus, writer, peer specialist, and game developer. I've popcorn around the network in a lot of different, cameo scenarios and, worked on last year's Brigade Congress content committee. I joined the network revisioning team as the recommendations, lead writer during the closing phase of the process, and I'm super glad to be here. As each of you are thinking about this network revisioning process, why do you think the volunteer network decided to go forward with it and pursue it? I would say it's it's overdue. And I think that the decision to move forward was based on years' worth of, kind of misalignment. And I also don't wanna give any misconceptions. Like, a lot of the process was kind of fought for and advocated for, from CFA staff and especially from Meredith, the senior director of the the network. And I think that that's important because, you know, we see and have seen for years that there's a misalignment or that we're not able to meet brigades needs and that the organization, isn't isn't focusing on brigades or supporting the program in the same way we'd like. And that was kind of the bubbling up, but the actual starting of the process and putting time, energy, resources behind it, was recognizing that those concerns were out there and devoting a ton of staff time towards it. So that's that's kind of some of the contexts. And I think that it's you know, overdue is the right word for it. It's it's something that even in our inception, brigades existed before Code for America did. There were groups of open source civic hacker coders that existed before the organization did. And I think when you have this, it's a really difficult situation where you have a traditional nonprofit and then nonhierarchical distributed network coming in, that's gonna have some friction. And this is kind of a clarity of relationship that is felt, I hope, on on multiple sides. But I've certainly heard from Code for America, from other staffers, staffers, from people in in leadership saying, wow. This is the clearest articulation of what the network needs that we've ever seen. And, yeah, the word overdue comes to mind, but I think there's there's more to it too. But, yeah, it's it's something that I think has been raised over and over and over again of what do we actually what kind of change are we actually making, and how do we relate to the organization? Ryan, as I said, I have been on the National Advisory Council for, three years. And in 2019 at a National Advisory Council meeting, we were talking about making future plans, and we were doing post it note activities, etcetera. And we figured out that we really couldn't plan what we wanted to do as a network until we had a better understanding of how we fit with Code for America. When Code for America started, there weren't any brigades. There were just, fellowships, and it was based on teach for America model. And as the organization evolved and they created the volunteer part of the organization, its relationship with the rest of Code for America had not been explicitly, examined. It really was just an evolution. And so out of that meeting came something that we were calling, theory of change. And we did some other exercises and discussions with, the executives at Code for America. And later, that process turned into, revisioning. I would add to that that from my perspective, when I stepped into brigade leadership in 2018. After getting an onboarding session with Code for America and starting to get into the brigade network at, Brigade Congress twenty eighteen in Charlotte, I noticed that, outside of our regional group of North Carolina and Southeast brigades, there didn't seem to be much outside of the Brigade Congress, intentional cross Brigade collaboration and events where we joined each other and talked about best practices. And one key part of that also was feeling like we, as brigade leaders, wanted to find ways to support ourselves as a network and have Code for America provide support for our work more intentionally. And so there was a call for that as well that I think was part of the revisioning process decision or the decision to go forward with the revisioning process. And at every point, people who got involved, you know, the saying, we decided to go forward with the revisioning process as a volunteer network. Work. Right? This was really, over time, people joining a conversation and saying, hey. This would be a good thing to reinvent our role in the way that we work together. And sometimes people would leave that conversation and come back into it over the years. But every time that someone joined, it's like, hey. Wait. This is this is like a needed conversation. Let's keep doing this. Right? So it wasn't just one time that we decided, you know, let's make a let's make a big change. Right? Over the course of time, the conversation kept building towards we need to make a change, and here's how we might do it in a way consistent with our value our values. So I I feel like my perspective code for America community, I spent some time on the sidelines watching watching the work come out, either from the organization or from the volunteer network. A a a division between them wasn't easy for me to perceive as such. To me, it was all just code for America work. So when I did enter into the, network community, the volunteer community more properly and, you know, began to understand some of the historical relationship between that volunteer side and the more formal organization side, some of that history there. I was surprised by the level of friction that could be sustained and people still show up to the work on both sides of that equation. And I was really intrigued by that, that this was a community, on both sides of a formal organized side and the more volunteer, maybe, rapid turnover, higher volume side. I was really intrigued by that relationship and felt that where where the revisioning process is at now is a natural a natural peak. It's a natural, end to the friction that came before volunteers are I'm sure. But yeah. What are each of you hoping that the volunteer network gets out of the process? It would be nice if the revisioning process becomes in something that's incorporated going forward into constantly reevaluating where we are and not that this gets set in stone for the next ten years, but that that feedback loop improves so that we can refine ourselves faster. My hope for the end of revisioning is that anyone who shows up to Code for America, and and it's easier to show up now because you can show up online, and says, I wanna be a part of this work, that they're not obligated to attach themselves to a geographically archimedes brigade or start one themselves, but there will be a way for them to find meaningful work that they can do within the network. When I when I first joined Code for Greensboro's leadership, the original people who had gotten together to form Code for Greensboro had formed a board and filed as a five zero one c three. And, like, their goal was to to quit day jobs and and work, full time doing this and and have a five zero one c three. And it turned the five zero one c three structure is very rigid and turned out not to be the right fit for a spontaneously driven and volunteer based model of working. So when I came on on board, if I I think that if a few of us hadn't raised our hands, just two of us, to keep the organization going and say we we would step into the co captain role, it might have gone dormant. And so another thing that has always been on my mind through this and leadership transition and, like, how to get new people into civic tech, How can we, reenvision the way that brigade leadership is handed off and sustain it when key people, you know, move on to other things in life. Something that I hope the volunteer network gets out of the process is that pathway to leadership that is organic and helps to to build grassroots support in each of the communities where we work. So it's not just like, start a brigade, work on a project with your government, maybe an election cycle goes by, and go away. Right? But actually build partnerships with other organizations working in the community, not just government so that the civic tech support in any given community where we work is is organic and is sustainable. And I think that's what I hope we get towards with what comes out of and the next steps in the revisioning work. Next, we'll talk a bit about the research phases to this process for network revisioning. One of those is referred to as peer to peer conversations. Effectively, what would happen is that folks that were volunteering with this effort would set up one on one and small group conversations, where they would try to work through a series of questions in order to figure out things like what values the individual has and how they relate to the network, their views on the way the network is now, and their hopes for how the network could be in the future, among other things. So let's go ahead and check out a conversation about this step along the way. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Hi, Ryan. Thank you for having me here. My name is Yancy Aberra. And so I joined the network revisioning space. I'm I'm also co organizer for for Coach for Atlanta. And to just explain to you a little bit, Ryan, how I got here is, you know, last year in 2020, because of COVID and the virtual status of things, I, volunteered to help out plan the Brigade Congress event. And so, I met some wonderful people there and primarily and and some of the folks actually were actually also helping out with technical visioning work Omit. And I felt like we've made great connections. That was actually my first window into Brigade of Congress because I hadn't attended before and realizing that there's a lot more outside of what I do with Coach for Atlanta by way of networking and building relationships. Fast forward 2021 and reaches out and asks, hey. Do you wanna help out with network revisioning, you know, based on our experience and all those things I've done. And I was super excited to do it. And I joined at the time, I think it was Tim from code for, Greensboro. And we were, you know, the first ones on the team, and we literally, like, had those works work going into the process by way of thinking and identifying key areas of, you know, themes in terms of values and directions. And so we when I joined, we were the initially the first working group with the revision process, and I was working on the peer to peer side of it. Why has the network embarked on the peer to peer conversation effort that you've been a part of? I think that there's a key understanding to check-in, engage where everyone is at in terms of, you know, why why we do the things we do, and what resonates or registers for, you know, our peers across the network. And so I think my understanding of it is in ensuing conversations, you know, starting, I think, with brigade congress even before that, I think this conversation probably has been prickly for many years, you know, seeking some kind of solution on how do how do we work, what's our goal, how are we unified in our effort, why do we do what we do, you know, what's our footprint or impact in this world. And so stemming from all of that, I think there was a need to reach out and really better understand wherever one was at. And so, you know, outreach to peers, it's touches our the peer to peer working team that we found that we're working on was one type of peer to peer that we were experiment. Meaning, in addition to surveys and focus groups and, you know, larger meetings, this was just a one to one interaction where we would have, you know, a person on the Zoom call virtually and have that conversation in a way that we didn't I think the network did not look before in such a structured and comprehensive matter, helped, like, get a real sense of, you know, what what the sentiments are, feedback, thoughts, anything that we would otherwise not be able to capture in other forms of peer to peer interaction. And so I think that it was part of the whole, effort to get to get get and pull in and engage peers, and also gauge where we are in terms of, like, defining what the proposed pathways should be and what what the revisioning recommendations we ultimately wanna reflect is everything that we've heard from everyone. Are there any insights that came out of these conversations that surprised you? I think what surprised me in a in a pleasant way and what what made which surprised I I think I was surprised on my own also in some ways reaction to it is this idea of bridging connections with, peers across the network and realizing, you know, as you're sharing, where they stand, mostly what they've done, where they're coming from, how incredible our network really is. And there are some incredible people doing amazing work. And each time I'm having a conversation, I'm wondering, like, I feel I find myself to be very lucky in that position because I'm wondering, like, how would someone else know what I'm actually experiencing and knowing in this moment? And the realization that not only is just is this an expressed desire from the perspective of peers to connect with other peers because there's so much to share. We have so much in common, and there's so much we're achieving. But this was my my thing this, which is which feels like this is an amazing thing to want to really for the network. And it will move us forward, I feel. And so I think while we're trying to find that structure on how we do it, we're trying to come together, you know, in a way that we will have to build it as we as we forward in a way that makes sense to to everyone. I think this idea of a peer to peer connection, I think it's a foundational aspect of our network. I do feel that just that it's a network working together. I think the desire for all of us, every pair that I have to I for majority, to connect and communicate with each other is very strongly there. And so it's just I I was surprised at how much people are willing to lean in with whatever they have to share. There's just a desire to wanna engage and communicate. And some folks said, we've never been asked these questions. We've never had this kind of conversation before. And I think that this is why I feel like the very important part, it could be a right part of what we do here at the time. As was mentioned there, along with those one on one conversations and the information that they yielded, there were also things involved like surveys, larger group engagements, all bringing data into the process that would be looked at in trying to figure out where folks in the network are at. So our next conversation is gonna dig into a bit of the experience in bringing structure to the analysis process as well as the challenges that they faced in trying to make sense of it all. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Hi. My name is Jennifer Miller, and I am a co organizer of the North Carolina Statewide Network Of Brigades. My background is in teaching and doing research in public policy. And right now, I'm focusing on projects that advance open knowledge, so in the areas of open data, open education, and open science. In our conversation before this interview, you mentioned that one of your primary roles has been to bring structure to the data analysis process. Can you talk to us a bit about that experience? Yes. I joined the data team for the revisioning process, and the team was clearly working very hard and doing a lot, but I think had gotten a little bit ahead of itself. I could see places where a little more structure underlying the team's work would really make a difference. One of the main areas where I added structure was to bring some of the Code for America perspective on usability to think about our volunteer taggers or coders, data coders as the end users. And here, I wrote up a, more detailed step by step process on data tagging and, rearrange the process so the taggers could do almost all of their work on one screen, you know, minimizing the extra work from a user perspective of having to move from screen to screen while also keeping some very fairly complex abstract ideas that they were identifying in the tagging process. So you you mentioned that that work in attempting to tag data as part of this process. What sort of data were you all working with as you're going through that? We were working with survey data. And so some of the data was from a survey about the the Code for America values where people had submitted qualitative responses, written responses about the extent to which they felt Code for America lived up to a series of values. For describing how brigades achieve, change, for describing how brigades achieve, change, their theory of change, and how brigades actually, you know, accomplish their impact in the world. And then there was some very loosely structured forum data that took the form of, speaker remarks, chat comments, and other texts that came as part of a series of online forums that were held that invited everyone, to comment on various aspects of the revisioning process. We we've talked about how folks are are using these these these tools to to the act of tagging. That's that's a term that's come up a couple of times. For folks that might not be familiar with what that means, could you talk a bit about what that act is? We loaded the survey data into Airtable, which is kind of an online form of a spreadsheet with some additional functionality. And, actually, tagging involved reading an excerpt of text and then thinking through a series of categories. The categories included pathway, strategy, relationships. And then for each category, the tagger was asked to think about a number of tags and whether or not they applied. So within the strategy category, people were asked to think about, does a tag for partnerships apply? For does a tag around efficiency apply? And they would Airtable has kind of a color coding, so you would select the the tag that matched to the concept. I imagine that working with this sort of data presents its own unique challenges. What were some of those that y'all had to work through going through this process? I'd like to talk about two challenges specifically. First was another example of bringing structure to the process. Something that we lacked in addition to a step by step process was we lacked a codebook. And a codebook explains exactly what we mean by each of those categories and each of those tags. It's easy to think that you all understand what is meant by strategy and partnerships until you start comparing the idea in your head with the idea in someone else's head. And then you realize that you're not actually using those terms in the same way. So creating the code book was a big step forward toward getting our volunteer taggers to use those tags and concepts consistently. Another challenge that we face with the data is that the vast majority of the data was not collected with the specific question of what should be the new vision for the brigades. The majority of the tag responses were around the question of various values. There were some surveys that asked specifically which of the three pathways that we were contemplating people should use, but those had fairly low response rates. And we also found that people interpreted the three pathways very differently, and, ultimately, we had to move away from pathways as a structure for articulating our results. And then the forums also were focused on specific aspects of revisioning, but none of the survey responses that we had were specifically people writing. I think the way to describe how brigades will create change is this. So we had to tease out the key themes from people's answers to different questions. Another interesting comment was made during this conversation about that balance between rigor and openness that took their academic background into account. Unfortunately, I didn't really have, like, a question to prompt beforehand, but I did wanna make sure y'all got that context. So before we move on to the next section, take a listen to this comment. So one thing coming from an academic background, one thing that for an academic study would have been very important is interrater reliability. That is looking very carefully at whether the taggers were applying those tags in the same way. In an academic study, it would be very important that if you and I read the same text, we chose the same tags for all of the categories. And your taggers need to be trained until they achieve those type of results, and then you can let them work a bit independently. We were really committed to having an open tagging process in which volunteers could drop in, get trained up quickly, participate, really an open form of engagement with the tagging. And this meant that we were not really able to strive for an inter rater reliability metric. So now that all this information is gathered, insights have been drawn from it ostensibly, there is then the question of, well, what do we do with all that we've learned here? Which leads us to our next conversation about something called the implementation phase. And to that end, we will be joined again by Em and Renee, who talked to us a bit during the why portion of our conversation at the beginning to talk a bit about what this phase is, as well as the impact they think it might have for folks volunteering in the network. Y'all have joined this conversation to talk a bit about the implementation portion of this process that this episode's been covering. Can you talk a bit about what that means in this context? Implementation is not not necessarily the most exciting word for it, but we're kind of talking about from an organizational perspective, what does it mean to take this long recommendation, programmatic changes, and put them into reality, from kind of the brigade level up. So, you know, this looks like from nuts and bolts, it's hiring new staff, but it's also creating new program areas. And then I think the harder part is culture change and trying to achieve what I think Renee put so well in the recommendation of parity and respect for the work that the volunteer network does, which is, of course, the hardest of all of those. It's it's easy to hire staff, but to kind of make up for ten years of a relationship that has been, at times, very ill defined, is a is a bit more challenging. As I understand, you know, the implementation process is a change management process with, like, a lot of moving pieces. And some of those pieces are easy to fix in place because they're rather obvious and easy to understand. But there are a lot of other pieces that are harder to sort out, and that's where it takes the collective action of everyone involved under the name of Code for America to get involved. But in order for that part of implementation to be successful, yeah, that that culture change for everyone, at least strengthening what we recognize about its value, about treating each other as peers, wherever we're at in life, and understanding what that really means on a deeper level when we're working together on things we're passionate about, things that really impact our lives directly. So that's what I am really interested in seeing through the implementation phase is how understanding each other better as peers gets us moving on making change happen. What will the implementation mean for folks that are out there right now just kinda doing that volunteer thing out in the network? I think that some of the biggest changes are I think Renee has worded this as pathways. So if you're kind of maybe in the network or interested in civic tech and you join our Slack right now, which is kind of the the community space, there's there's actually not that many clear ways for you to get plugged into a project and to kind of practice what you you think you're able to do by joining the community. You know, it's it feels very unfulfilling from the staff perspective to say, go find your local brigade and see if they have a project because we know that oftentimes there's there's not always a good match there, and it can be difficult to actually have someone find their place in the community. So with implementation and changing how our community operates and changing the programs, we're hoping to create, like, very clear pathways for someone to come into the community. So that might look like instead of just a kind of big wide net of a a Slack community, you also have, join a community of practice. You know, say you're a a beginning product manager and you want to kind of apply some of your learnings and learn from other peers in that space who are also product managers, you can join that community of practice. If you, you know, we kind of see a kind of the beginnings of of the national action team model with National Day of Civic Hacking, and that's something where we would have multiple ways for someone to multiple projects or initiatives that someone could join, whether that's the nine one one project or another one. And those are very clear pathways. And I think in addition, there's just more support in the ways that brigades express that they need support. So one of the options is stipends for project managers because that came up over and over and over again as something that brigades need help on. So that's I think there's just a more established pathway both for volunteers to get involved and for a brigade to get support. And I'll also just add, like, you know, that has to all be implemented still, and it's not we're not complete in that process. So some of that may come to fruition and some of that might look a little bit different. To further, illustrate the pathways concept and and where I came to it from, you know, I had to very much carve my own path through the network to find the kind of interests and skill sets that, I needed for the work I was doing on my own or that I could offer, maybe not directly to the brigade in my area, but, you know, on projects elsewhere or elsewise. And I felt very much that I was carving desire paths, which is like a civic engineering understanding of, like, you build a sidewalk, it cuts around a certain way, and then people will walk right across the grass and build their like, their own path will develop. So, you know, I I had tried all of those formal pathways that existed. None of them really suited the way in which I could, like, link up most effectively from where I sat with my life and my work. And as I began to look for ways to integrate myself into this community, I saw a lot of people doing the same thing. So a lot of what's described as hopeful for implementation is trying to put language to those realities as they exist in such a decentralized, you know, independently carved out way. So trying to bring some support to that, means creating language that kind of doesn't exist in the community. So, some of the implementation will involve just getting used to naming things instead of just them existing without a name. And that's where, you know, the volunteer network can really fill out a lot of the unknown by naming the ways in which they've carved their own path through this work. We we need those, you know, we need them to identify where the sidewalk ended for them, and they diverged and what worked for them and why. Let's imagine a world where the implementation phase has completed, and it was as successful as as you would have liked it to be. What are y'all hoping that the network will have gotten out of that process if that's happened? What I love most about the Code for America community is there are not prerequisites despite all evidence that only skilled work comes out of the cream of the crop or what have you. You know? There's there's no prerequisite to have some sort of certificate or degree or anything like that. You basically you just agree to abide by the code of conduct. And as long as you're ready to show up underneath that umbrella, you have a space to be heard. This is very necessary framework, from where I come from in advocacy with the disability community. In that community, those kinds of agreements are the only way we can create the inter interdependence that we need. And interdependence is a framework that I think works really great for the Code for America community. It's collective action with a lot of autonomy held within it. And so I'm hoping to see that this, peer specialist work that I can bring in to help give language to a community that struggles to understand itself along parity lines. I'm hoping that through implementation, through the culture change required, for some of those mechanisms to work, that we understand our collective action is interdependent rather than independent and that you can be decentralized and and still connected very closely to one another. That's that's really well said. And relatedly, I I hope that there's some some better or more significant impact that the network has. And I think part of that gets down to how we operate together, how we kind of make change. Those are big questions that we're asking through this process. And I think looking at our history, we have done a lot of projects that didn't really didn't really do that much, if we're being honest. And I think implementation focuses you know, a big focus is community partnership, and we heard that a ton in talking to brigades was, you know, actually, my local government doesn't wanna work with us, but community groups do. And I think that by taking a stand and saying, okay. We're we're really focusing on this being our main pathway for change by helping groups that are already doing the work. That feels really significant and, like, a bigger change from kind of the tech saviorism that was our kind of founding DNA. And my hope is that once revisioning is done and we are in a new phase of this work, the next decade sees a lot more impact and a lot more, kind of ways that we're helping people directly, and and fewer kind of I think we'd call them self actualization projects. Thank you for making it this far into the conversation. I think we've done well exploring how we hit these why questions, these core questions that the network has been exploring in through how research was done, how data from that research was handled, into then what it looks like to try to implement some of the things that were learned. One of the deliverers that did come from this process, and it's been mentioned, I think, a couple of times in these conversations, is this idea of there being a proposal. And at the taping of this, there is a proposal that has been released that's available out online for you to read. I will have that linked in the episode description, but I do wanna talk about it at least a little bit before we end the episode. The document has a ton of information in it. It talks a lot about purpose, values, governance participatory process, digs into some of the things we talked about in these conversations, like data methods, research methods, and findings. But the thing I do wanna focus on for the moment in voice are, some of the changes that come with this proposal compared to what's currently going on in the network. So there's a couple of key points as I have this in front of me and go over it with y'all. And one of those is that it seems there's a change away from leading with government partnership, instead of focusing on leading with community partnership and accountability. Those are the kind of the words that are used in the document. And what I take that to mean is that brigades are not gonna be assumed to be an organization that are focused on, hey. Like, let's get some sort of government partnership that will help provide some sort of service using volunteer labor. Instead, the folks would be on partnering with local community groups, maybe nonprofits, folks that are close to where life is being lived and where there are things that need addressed in the community, and then trying to take an empathetic approach as one tries to partner with them and work with them on whatever problem they might want to solve, which then leads to some language that's used a little bit later in the proposal around trying to, like, find those partnerships first before just building technology. I think that's a response to in fact, some conversations we've had here on the podcast occasionally where there's this idea that sometimes things get built without really the audience involved, without that human centered element, and then it ends up being kinda tossing a piece of tech over a fence where there isn't anyone to use it. So it looks like that's in part meant to address that. There is work in here, as I mentioned, to kinda put effort into addressing, governance with the organization. I don't gather here exactly what that's gonna look like. I think that's a conversation that's still ongoing, so you wanna continue to pay attention to that if you're interested in figuring out how decisions are gonna be made in the future. The proposal also starts to talk a bit about resourcing for that kind of those kind of big aims that we're just talking about for that aim to make it a better experience for brigades to kinda have that foundation of those partnerships. And it looks like some of that involves, some full time positions with, Code for America, some stipend positions that are kinda for folks out in the network, as well as some additional kinda fundraising and staffing support that again, I I would urge you to kinda go into the documents, get more of the the specifics. But what I get from this is that there is thinking and strategy among, like, what what people resources do brigades need in order to be well supported as they go forward with this new vision of of things to come? And with that, then this document also mentions, goals. And what's interesting about these goals is that there's kind of different segments. There are some that are around that kinda community volunteer organizing bit, around goals like increasing the number of active volunteers that are involved, increasing the number of healthy brigades. I think some numbers that are mentioned here are, like, trying to go from 10,000 active volunteers to 20,000 and trying to get up to 70 healthy brigades that have a core leadership team and, internal governance structure of their own with at least one partnership. And my understanding now is that the contents of the proposal has been presented to leadership folks at the Coach for America nonprofit, and that now there's kinda some next steps that will come, At least, again, I'm speaking at kind of the the time of recording this, and that there's still a need to take all of this and develop a a budget, a plan for how to implement the things that were proposed here as well as to figure out then how to communicate about all of this to a very large number of people that are spread over a very large geographic area. So I think this is a topic, especially for to keep an eye on, especially if you're someone who's interested in this sort of volunteering. I think it's really interesting to see a kinda grassroots group really try to sit down and wrangle with these core questions of, why are we doing this? What change are we trying to make? And I'll be curious to see where this proposal ends up and how folks will end up reacting to it. Before we draw this episode to a close, I do have a quick meta note. We're going to be taking part in Code for America's Brigade Congress on Saturday with a live show, where we'll have a panel coming together, talk a bit about why folks volunteer, the realities of working on volunteer projects, and other things in between those topics. So if you're interested in checking that out, it will be virtual, and it will be at 12:30PM on Saturday. I will put links in the episode description giving you information on how to register for the conference as well as the schedule that lets you know when our session is. So hopefully I will see you all for the show and, perhaps bump into you on that Gather Town application they're using for the virtual conference as we all bumble around and talk a bit about Civic Tech. 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I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Either that, or maybe I'll rant about a topic for a while.\n\nBefore we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech.\n\nAnyway, let's go ahead and start the show. This time, we're gonna be talking about an organization called Code for America. It's a name you may have heard along the way if you've listened to episodes as there have been volunteers from that organization that have come on the program to talk a bit about initiatives they've had going on, including even their current CEO. But to catch folks up, why don't we talk a bit about what Code for America is? As I mentioned, it is a nonprofit, and one of the things they do is they partner with government at various levels to improve services delivery, often using techniques like human centered design.\n\nIn a way, you could think of them a bit like a nonprofit consultancy as they attempt to create partnerships and promote good practices through their work. You might be familiar with some of the projects they've done, including the automatic records clearance work they've done in California, as well as the food benefits work they've done, the name of that being GetCalFresh, among others. A lot of their work is very focused on things that are involved in service delivery and things like the social safety net. But that's not the only portion of the organization that exists. There's also this thing called the network.\n\nBut you might be wondering, well, what is the network, Ryan? It all comes back to this idea of there being these civic hacking groups that formed, and they've been around for quite a while. And the network kind of came along as a way to form social bonds between such groups, and these groups as these groups are spread across different cities all across the country. And really what they are are folks that have come together to attempt to volunteer their time, their skills, that sort of thing to help improve nonprofits, to help improve the way government service is delivered, etcetera. And the way that then involves Code for America is that folks from that nonprofit then engage with these groups of volunteers to help facilitate connections through things like communication tools that are provided as well as through events like Brigade Congress and Summit.\n\nWhat's interesting about this isn't so much that there's a grassroots organization out there of a bunch of kinda decentralized groups that are trying to improve their community, nor so much that there's a nonprofit that provides services and consulting to government. But the fact that there's kinda both of these things together under the same umbrella. And that kind of leads into the conversation we're gonna have today, which is about something called network revisioning. This is a project that was announced on a forum that Code for America uses on March 16, and it was described as an opportunity to revisit core questions about what the volunteer network is doing. Things like, why are we doing this?\n\nWhat is it we're trying to change? And what is our path forward? Initially, in that post, there was an outlying of some potential paths and the promise of a journey ahead toward a recommendation influenced heavily by the volunteers themselves. Over the past seven months, there has no doubt been a lot of learning that's happened and a lot of exploration. On this podcast for a long time, we've had this tradition of asking our guests, what is their personal why?\n\nThe thing that drives them to get out of bed each morning and do what they do. In a way, what we're about to do today is ask that sort of question, but to an entire grassroots organization. To that end, we'll talk to folks that were a part of this process. We'll talk about why this is happening, how conversations happened, how data was analyzed, and a bit about the path to implementation. So let's start with why.\n\nTo try to dig into that, I spoke to a group of folks that have been involved with this revisioning effort and with the volunteer network more generally for quite some time. So let's see what they had to say. Can each of you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: My name is Janet Michalis. I am co captain of Code for Dayton, and I've been for about seven years. And I'm also on the National Advisory Council for Code for America, the regional representative for the Central Area. And I'm in the second year of my second term, So I am in my last term limited time in this role.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hey. I'm Tim Leesman. I'm the co captain of code for Greensboro and was the cofacilitator of the data team during the the narrowing phase of revisioning, and I'm still working as a facilitator on a volunteer and partly paid position with Code for America right now. And I've been with Code for Greensboro for about three and a half years.\n\nSpeaker 3: My\n\nSpeaker 4: name is m Burnett. I use they, them pronouns. I'm the senior community manager at Code for America, and that's I work on the network team, a lot of, you know, managing how our community operates. And I am a longtime brigade member. I used to be on the National Advisory Council, so I've kind of been in the space for a while.\n\nAnd after taking a hiatus,\n\nSpeaker 5: writer, peer specialist, and game developer. I've popcorn around the network in a lot of different, cameo scenarios and, worked on last year's Brigade Congress content committee. I joined the network revisioning team as the recommendations, lead writer during the closing phase of the process, and I'm super glad to be here.\n\nSpeaker 0: As each of you are thinking about this network revisioning process, why do you think the volunteer network decided to go forward with it and pursue it?\n\nSpeaker 4: I would say it's it's overdue. And I think that the decision to move forward was based on years' worth of, kind of misalignment. And I also don't wanna give any misconceptions. Like, a lot of the process was kind of fought for and advocated for, from CFA staff and especially from Meredith, the senior director of the the network. And I think that that's important because, you know, we see and have seen for years that there's a misalignment or that we're not able to meet brigades needs and that the organization, isn't isn't focusing on brigades or supporting the program in the same way we'd like.\n\nAnd that was kind of the bubbling up, but the actual starting of the process and putting time, energy, resources behind it, was recognizing that those concerns were out there and devoting a ton of staff time towards it. So that's that's kind of some of the contexts. And I think that it's you know, overdue is the right word for it. It's it's something that even in our inception, brigades existed before Code for America did. There were groups of open source civic hacker coders that existed before the organization did.\n\nAnd I think when you have this, it's a really difficult situation where you have a traditional nonprofit and then nonhierarchical distributed network coming in, that's gonna have some friction. And this is kind of a clarity of relationship that is felt, I hope, on on multiple sides. But I've certainly heard from Code for America, from other staffers, staffers, from people in in leadership saying, wow. This is the clearest articulation of what the network needs that we've ever seen. And, yeah, the word overdue comes to mind, but I think there's there's more to it too.\n\nBut, yeah, it's it's something that I think has been raised over and over and over again of what do we actually what kind of change are we actually making, and how do we relate to the organization?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ryan, as I said, I have been on the National Advisory Council for, three years. And in 2019 at a National Advisory Council meeting, we were talking about making future plans, and we were doing post it note activities, etcetera. And we figured out that we really couldn't plan what we wanted to do as a network until we had a better understanding of how we fit with Code for America. When Code for America started, there weren't any brigades. There were just, fellowships, and it was based on teach for America model.\n\nAnd as the organization evolved and they created the volunteer part of the organization, its relationship with the rest of Code for America had not been explicitly, examined. It really was just an evolution. And so out of that meeting came something that we were calling, theory of change. And we did some other exercises and discussions with, the executives at Code for America. And later, that process turned into, revisioning.\n\nSpeaker 2: I would add to that that from my perspective, when I stepped into brigade leadership in 2018. After getting an onboarding session with Code for America and starting to get into the brigade network at, Brigade Congress twenty eighteen in Charlotte, I noticed that, outside of our regional group of North Carolina and Southeast brigades, there didn't seem to be much outside of the Brigade Congress, intentional cross Brigade collaboration and events where we joined each other and talked about best practices. And one key part of that also was feeling like we, as brigade leaders, wanted to find ways to support ourselves as a network and have Code for America provide support for our work more intentionally. And so there was a call for that as well that I think was part of the revisioning process decision or the decision to go forward with the revisioning process. And at every point, people who got involved, you know, the saying, we decided to go forward with the revisioning process as a volunteer network.\n\nWork. Right? This was really, over time, people joining a conversation and saying, hey. This would be a good thing to reinvent our role in the way that we work together. And sometimes people would leave that conversation and come back into it over the years.\n\nBut every time that someone joined, it's like, hey. Wait. This is this is like a needed conversation. Let's keep doing this. Right?\n\nSo it wasn't just one time that we decided, you know, let's make a let's make a big change. Right? Over the course of time, the conversation kept building towards we need to make a change, and here's how we might do it in a way consistent with our value our values.\n\nSpeaker 5: So I I feel like my perspective code for America community, I spent some time on the sidelines watching watching the work come out, either from the organization or from the volunteer network. A a a division between them wasn't easy for me to perceive as such. To me, it was all just code for America work. So when I did enter into the, network community, the volunteer community more properly and, you know, began to understand some of the historical relationship between that volunteer side and the more formal organization side, some of that history there. I was surprised by the level of friction that could be sustained and people still show up to the work on both sides of that equation.\n\nAnd I was really intrigued by that, that this was a community, on both sides of a formal organized side and the more volunteer, maybe, rapid turnover, higher volume side. I was really intrigued by that relationship and felt that where where the revisioning process is at now is a natural a natural peak. It's a natural, end to the friction that came before volunteers are I'm sure. But yeah.\n\nSpeaker 0: What are each of you hoping that the volunteer network gets out of the process?\n\nSpeaker 1: It would be nice if the revisioning process becomes in something that's incorporated going forward into constantly reevaluating where we are and not that this gets set in stone for the next ten years, but that that feedback loop improves so that we can refine ourselves faster. My hope for the end of revisioning is that anyone who shows up to Code for America, and and it's easier to show up now because you can show up online, and says, I wanna be a part of this work, that they're not obligated to attach themselves to a geographically archimedes brigade or start one themselves, but there will be a way for them to find meaningful work\n\nSpeaker 3: that\n\nSpeaker 1: they can do within the network.\n\nSpeaker 2: When I when I first joined Code for Greensboro's leadership, the original people who had gotten together to form Code for Greensboro had formed a board and filed as a five zero one c three. And, like, their goal was to to quit day jobs and and work, full time doing this and and have a five zero one c three. And it turned the five zero one c three structure is very rigid and turned out not to be the right fit for a spontaneously driven and volunteer based model of working. So when I came on on board, if I I think that if a few of us hadn't raised our hands, just two of us, to keep the organization going and say we we would step into the co captain role, it might have gone dormant. And so another thing that has always been on my mind through this and leadership transition and, like, how to get new people into civic tech, How can we, reenvision the way that brigade leadership is handed off and sustain it when key people, you know, move on to other things in life.\n\nSomething that I hope the volunteer network gets out of the process is that pathway to leadership that is organic and helps to to build grassroots support in each of the communities where we work. So it's not just like, start a brigade, work on a project with your government, maybe an election cycle goes by, and go away. Right? But actually build partnerships with other organizations working in the community, not just government so that the civic tech support in any given community where we work is is organic and is sustainable. And I think that's what I hope we get towards with what comes out of and the next steps in the revisioning work.\n\nSpeaker 0: Next, we'll talk a bit about the research phases to this process for network revisioning. One of those is referred to as peer to peer conversations. Effectively, what would happen is that folks that were volunteering with this effort would set up one on one and small group conversations, where they would try to work through a series of questions in order to figure out things like what values the individual has and how they relate to the network, their views on the way the network is now, and their hopes for how the network could be in the future, among other things. So let's go ahead and check out a conversation about this step along the way. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 3: Hi, Ryan. Thank you for having me here. My name is Yancy Aberra. And so I joined the network revisioning space. I'm I'm also co organizer for for Coach for Atlanta.\n\nAnd to just explain to you a little bit, Ryan, how I got here is, you know, last year in 2020, because of COVID and the virtual status of things, I, volunteered to help out plan the Brigade Congress event. And so, I met some wonderful people there and primarily and and some of the folks actually were actually also helping out with technical visioning work Omit. And I felt like we've made great connections. That was actually my first window into Brigade of Congress because I hadn't attended before and realizing that there's a lot more outside of what I do with Coach for Atlanta by way of networking and building relationships. Fast forward 2021 and reaches out and asks, hey.\n\nDo you wanna help out with network revisioning, you know, based on our experience and all those things I've done. And I was super excited to do it. And I joined at the time, I think it was Tim from code for, Greensboro. And we were, you know, the first ones on the team, and we literally, like, had those works work going into the process by way of thinking and identifying key areas of, you know, themes in terms of values and directions. And so we when I joined, we were the initially the first working group with the revision process, and I was working on the peer to peer side of it.\n\nSpeaker 0: Why has the network embarked on the peer to peer conversation effort that you've been a part of?\n\nSpeaker 3: I think that there's a key understanding to check-in, engage where everyone is at in terms of, you know, why why we do the things we do, and what resonates or registers for, you know, our peers across the network. And so I think my understanding of it is in ensuing conversations, you know, starting, I think, with brigade congress even before that, I think this conversation probably has been prickly for many years, you know, seeking some kind of solution on how do how do we work, what's our goal, how are we unified in our effort, why do we do what we do, you know, what's our footprint or impact in this world. And so stemming from all of that, I think there was a need to reach out and really better understand wherever one was at. And so, you know, outreach to peers, it's touches our the peer to peer working team that we found that we're working on was one type of peer to peer that we were experiment. Meaning, in addition to surveys and focus groups and, you know, larger meetings, this was just a one to one interaction where we would have, you know, a person on the Zoom call virtually and have that conversation in a way that we didn't I think the network did not look before in such a structured and comprehensive matter, helped, like, get a real sense of, you know, what what the sentiments are, feedback, thoughts, anything that we would otherwise not be able to capture in other forms of peer to peer interaction.\n\nAnd so I think that it was part of the whole, effort to get to get get and pull in and engage peers, and also gauge where we are in terms of, like, defining what the proposed pathways should be and what what the revisioning recommendations we ultimately wanna reflect is everything that we've heard from everyone.\n\nSpeaker 0: Are there any insights that came out of these conversations that surprised you?\n\nSpeaker 3: I think what surprised me in a in a pleasant way and what what made which surprised I I think I was surprised on my own also in some ways reaction to it is this idea of bridging connections with, peers across the network and realizing, you know, as you're sharing, where they stand, mostly what they've done, where they're coming from, how incredible our network really is. And there are some incredible people doing amazing work. And each time I'm having a conversation, I'm wondering, like, I feel I find myself to be very lucky in that position because I'm wondering, like, how would someone else know what I'm actually experiencing and knowing in this moment? And the realization that not only is just is this an expressed desire from the perspective of peers to connect with other peers because there's so much to share. We have so much in common, and there's so much we're achieving.\n\nBut this was my my thing this, which is which feels like this is an amazing thing to want to really for the network. And it will move us forward, I feel. And so I think while we're trying to find that structure on how we do it, we're trying to come together, you know, in a way that we will have to build it as we as we forward in a way that makes sense to to everyone. I think this idea of a peer to peer connection, I think it's a foundational aspect of our network. I do feel that just that it's a network working together.\n\nI think the desire for all of us, every pair that I have to I for majority, to connect and communicate with each other is very strongly there. And so it's just I I was surprised at how much people are willing to lean in with whatever they have to share. There's just a desire to wanna engage and communicate. And some folks said, we've never been asked these questions. We've never had this kind of conversation before.\n\nAnd I think that this is why I feel like the very important part, it could be a right part of what we do here at the time.\n\nSpeaker 0: As was mentioned there, along with those one on one conversations and the information that they yielded, there were also things involved like surveys, larger group engagements, all bringing data into the process that would be looked at in trying to figure out where folks in the network are at. So our next conversation is gonna dig into a bit of the experience in bringing structure to the analysis process as well as the challenges that they faced in trying to make sense of it all. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 6: Hi. My name is Jennifer Miller, and I am a co organizer of the North Carolina Statewide Network Of Brigades. My background is in teaching and doing research in public policy. And right now, I'm focusing on projects that advance open knowledge, so in the areas of open data, open education, and open science.\n\nSpeaker 0: In our conversation before this interview, you mentioned that one of your primary roles has been to bring structure to the data analysis process. Can you talk to us a bit about that experience?\n\nSpeaker 6: Yes. I joined the data team for the revisioning process, and the team was clearly working very hard and doing a lot, but I think had gotten a little bit ahead of itself. I could see places where a little more structure underlying the team's work would really make a difference. One of the main areas where I added structure was to bring some of the Code for America perspective on usability to think about our volunteer taggers or coders, data coders as the end users. And here, I wrote up a, more detailed step by step process on data tagging and, rearrange the process so the taggers could do almost all of their work on one screen, you know, minimizing the extra work from a user perspective of having to move from screen to screen while also keeping some very fairly complex abstract ideas that they were identifying in the tagging process.\n\nSpeaker 0: So you you mentioned that that work in attempting to tag data as part of this process. What sort of data were you all working with as you're going through that?\n\nSpeaker 6: We were working with survey data. And so some of the data was from a survey about the the Code for America values where people had submitted qualitative responses, written responses about the extent to which they felt Code for America lived up to a series of values. For describing how brigades achieve, change, for describing how brigades achieve, change, their theory of change, and how brigades actually, you know, accomplish their impact in the world. And then there was some very loosely structured forum data that took the form of, speaker remarks, chat comments, and other texts that came as part of a series of online forums that were held that invited everyone, to comment on various aspects of the revisioning process.\n\nSpeaker 0: We we've talked about how folks are are using these these these tools to to the act of tagging. That's that's a term that's come up a couple of times. For folks that might not be familiar with what that means, could you talk a bit about what that act is?\n\nSpeaker 6: We loaded the survey data into Airtable, which is kind of an online form of a spreadsheet with some additional functionality. And, actually, tagging involved reading an excerpt of text and then thinking through a series of categories. The categories included pathway, strategy, relationships. And then for each category, the tagger was asked to think about a number of tags and whether or not they applied. So within the strategy category, people were asked to think about, does a tag for partnerships apply?\n\nFor does a tag around efficiency apply? And they would Airtable has kind of a color coding, so you would select the the tag that matched to the concept.\n\nSpeaker 0: I imagine that working with this sort of data presents its own unique challenges. What were some of those that y'all had to work through going through this process?\n\nSpeaker 6: I'd like to talk about two challenges specifically. First was another example of bringing structure to the process. Something that we lacked in addition to a step by step process was we lacked a codebook. And a codebook explains exactly what we mean by each of those categories and each of those tags. It's easy to think that you all understand what is meant by strategy and partnerships until you start comparing the idea in your head with the idea in someone else's head.\n\nAnd then you realize that you're not actually using those terms in the same way. So creating the code book was a big step forward toward getting our volunteer taggers to use those tags and concepts consistently. Another challenge that we face with the data is that the vast majority of the data was not collected with the specific question of what should be the new vision for the brigades. The majority of the tag responses were around the question of various values. There were some surveys that asked specifically which of the three pathways that we were contemplating people should use, but those had fairly low response rates.\n\nAnd we also found that people interpreted the three pathways very differently, and, ultimately, we had to move away from pathways as a structure for articulating our results. And then the forums also were focused on specific aspects of revisioning, but none of the survey responses that we had were specifically people writing. I think the way to describe how brigades will create change is this. So we had to tease out the key themes from people's answers to different questions.\n\nSpeaker 0: Another interesting comment was made during this conversation about that balance between rigor and openness that took their academic background into account. Unfortunately, I didn't really have, like, a question to prompt beforehand, but I did wanna make sure y'all got that context. So before we move on to the next section, take a listen to this comment.\n\nSpeaker 6: So one thing coming from an academic background, one thing that for an academic study would have been very important is interrater reliability. That is looking very carefully at whether the taggers were applying those tags in the same way. In an academic study, it would be very important that if you and I read the same text, we chose the same tags for all of the categories. And your taggers need to be trained until they achieve those type of results, and then you can let them work a bit independently. We were really committed to having an open tagging process in which volunteers could drop in, get trained up quickly, participate, really an open form of engagement with the tagging.\n\nAnd this meant that we were not really able to strive for an inter rater reliability metric.\n\nSpeaker 0: So now that all this information is gathered, insights have been drawn from it ostensibly, there is then the question of, well, what do we do with all that we've learned here? Which leads us to our next conversation about something called the implementation phase. And to that end, we will be joined again by Em and Renee, who talked to us a bit during the why portion of our conversation at the beginning to talk a bit about what this phase is, as well as the impact they think it might have for folks volunteering in the network. Y'all have joined this conversation to talk a bit about the implementation portion of this process that this episode's been covering. Can you talk a bit about what that means in this context?\n\nSpeaker 4: Implementation is not not necessarily the most exciting word for it, but we're kind of talking about from an organizational perspective, what does it mean to take this long recommendation, programmatic changes, and put them into reality, from kind of the brigade level up. So, you know, this looks like from nuts and bolts, it's hiring new staff, but it's also creating new program areas. And then I think the harder part is culture change and trying to achieve what I think Renee put so well in the recommendation of parity and respect for the work that the volunteer network does, which is, of course, the hardest of all of those. It's it's easy to hire staff, but to kind of make up for ten years of a relationship that has been, at times, very ill defined, is a is a bit more challenging.\n\nSpeaker 5: As I understand, you know, the implementation process is a change management process with, like, a lot of moving pieces. And some of those pieces are easy to fix in place because they're rather obvious and easy to understand. But there are a lot of other pieces that are harder to sort out, and that's where it takes the collective action of everyone involved under the name of Code for America to get involved. But in order for that part of implementation to be successful, yeah, that that culture change for everyone, at least strengthening what we recognize about its value, about treating each other as peers, wherever we're at in life, and understanding what that really means on a deeper level when we're working together on things we're passionate about, things that really impact our lives directly. So that's what I am really interested in seeing through the implementation phase is how understanding each other better as peers gets us moving on making change happen.\n\nSpeaker 0: What will the implementation mean for folks that are out there right now just kinda doing that volunteer thing out in the network?\n\nSpeaker 4: I think that some of the biggest changes are I think Renee has worded this as pathways. So if you're kind of maybe in the network or interested in civic tech and you join our Slack right now, which is kind of the the community space, there's there's actually not that many clear ways for you to get plugged into a project and to kind of practice what you you think you're able to do by joining the community. You know, it's it feels very unfulfilling from the staff perspective to say, go find your local brigade and see if they have a project because we know that oftentimes there's there's not always a good match there, and it can be difficult to actually have someone find their place in the community. So with implementation and changing how our community operates and changing the programs, we're hoping to create, like, very clear pathways for someone to come into the community. So that might look like instead of just a kind of big wide net of a a Slack community, you also have, join a community of practice.\n\nYou know, say you're a a beginning product manager and you want to kind of apply some of your learnings and learn from other peers in that space who are also product managers, you can join that community of practice. If you, you know, we kind of see a kind of the beginnings of of the national action team model with National Day of Civic Hacking, and that's something where we would have multiple ways for someone to multiple projects or initiatives that someone could join, whether that's the nine one one project or another one. And those are very clear pathways. And I think in addition, there's just more support in the ways that brigades express that they need support. So one of the options is stipends for project managers because that came up over and over and over again as something that brigades need help on.\n\nSo that's I think there's just a more established pathway both for volunteers to get involved and for a brigade to get support. And I'll also just add, like, you know, that has to all be implemented still, and it's not we're not complete in that process. So some of that may come to fruition and some of that might look a little bit different.\n\nSpeaker 5: To further, illustrate the pathways concept and and where I came to it from, you know, I had to very much carve my own path through the network to find the kind of interests and skill sets that, I needed for the work I was doing on my own or that I could offer, maybe not directly to the brigade in my area, but, you know, on projects elsewhere or elsewise. And I felt very much that I was carving desire paths, which is like a civic engineering understanding of, like, you build a sidewalk, it cuts around a certain way, and then people will walk right across the grass and build their like, their own path will develop. So, you know, I I had tried all of those formal pathways that existed. None of them really suited the way in which I could, like, link up most effectively from where I sat with my life and my work. And as I began to look for ways to integrate myself into this community, I saw a lot of people doing the same thing.\n\nSo a lot of what's described as hopeful for implementation is trying to put language to those realities as they exist in such a decentralized, you know, independently carved out way. So trying to bring some support to that, means creating language that kind of doesn't exist in the community. So, some of the implementation will involve just getting used to naming things instead of just them existing without a name. And that's where, you know, the volunteer network can really fill out a lot of the unknown by naming the ways in which they've carved their own path through this work. We we need those, you know, we need them to identify where the sidewalk ended for them, and they diverged and what worked for them and why.\n\nSpeaker 0: Let's imagine a world where the implementation phase has completed, and it was as successful as as you would have liked it to be. What are y'all hoping that the network will have gotten out of that process if that's happened?\n\nSpeaker 5: What I love most about the Code for America community is there are not prerequisites despite all evidence that only skilled work comes out of the cream of the crop or what have you. You know? There's there's no prerequisite to have some sort of certificate or degree or anything like that. You basically you just agree to abide by the code of conduct. And as long as you're ready to show up underneath that umbrella, you have a space to be heard.\n\nThis is very necessary framework, from where I come from in advocacy with the disability community. In that community, those kinds of agreements are the only way we can create the inter interdependence that we need. And interdependence is a framework that I think works really great for the Code for America community. It's collective action with a lot of autonomy held within it. And so I'm hoping to see that this, peer specialist work that I can bring in to help give language to a community that struggles to understand itself along parity lines.\n\nI'm hoping that through implementation, through the culture change required, for some of those mechanisms to work, that we understand our collective action is interdependent rather than independent and that you can be decentralized and and still connected very closely to one another.\n\nSpeaker 4: That's that's really well said. And relatedly, I I hope that there's some some better or more significant impact that the network has. And I think part of that gets down to how we operate together, how we kind of make change. Those are big questions that we're asking through this process. And I think looking at our history, we have done a lot of projects that didn't really didn't really do that much, if we're being honest.\n\nAnd I think implementation focuses you know, a big focus is community partnership, and we heard that a ton in talking to brigades was, you know, actually, my local government doesn't wanna work with us, but community groups do. And I think that by taking a stand and saying, okay. We're we're really focusing on this being our main pathway for change by helping groups that are already doing the work. That feels really significant and, like, a bigger change from kind of the tech saviorism that was our kind of founding DNA. And my hope is that once revisioning is done and we are in a new phase of this work, the next decade sees a lot more impact and a lot more, kind of ways that we're helping people directly, and and fewer kind of I think we'd call them self actualization projects.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank you for making it this far into the conversation. I think we've done well exploring how we hit these why questions, these core questions that the network has been exploring in through how research was done, how data from that research was handled, into then what it looks like to try to implement some of the things that were learned. One of the deliverers that did come from this process, and it's been mentioned, I think, a couple of times in these conversations, is this idea of there being a proposal. And at the taping of this, there is a proposal that has been released that's available out online for you to read. I will have that linked in the episode description, but I do wanna talk about it at least a little bit before we end the episode.\n\nThe document has a ton of information in it. It talks a lot about purpose, values, governance participatory process, digs into some of the things we talked about in these conversations, like data methods, research methods, and findings. But the thing I do wanna focus on for the moment in voice are, some of the changes that come with this proposal compared to what's currently going on in the network. So there's a couple of key points as I have this in front of me and go over it with y'all. And one of those is that it seems there's a change away from leading with government partnership, instead of focusing on leading with community partnership and accountability.\n\nThose are the kind of the words that are used in the document. And what I take that to mean is that brigades are not gonna be assumed to be an organization that are focused on, hey. Like, let's get some sort of government partnership that will help provide some sort of service using volunteer labor. Instead, the folks would be on partnering with local community groups, maybe nonprofits, folks that are close to where life is being lived and where there are things that need addressed in the community, and then trying to take an empathetic approach as one tries to partner with them and work with them on whatever problem they might want to solve, which then leads to some language that's used a little bit later in the proposal around trying to, like, find those partnerships first before just building technology. I think that's a response to in fact, some conversations we've had here on the podcast occasionally where there's this idea that sometimes things get built without really the audience involved, without that human centered element, and then it ends up being kinda tossing a piece of tech over a fence where there isn't anyone to use it.\n\nSo it looks like that's in part meant to address that. There is work in here, as I mentioned, to kinda put effort into addressing, governance with the organization. I don't gather here exactly what that's gonna look like. I think that's a conversation that's still ongoing, so you wanna continue to pay attention to that if you're interested in figuring out how decisions are gonna be made in the future. The proposal also starts to talk a bit about resourcing for that kind of those kind of big aims that we're just talking about for that aim to make it a better experience for brigades to kinda have that foundation of those partnerships.\n\nAnd it looks like some of that involves, some full time positions with, Code for America, some stipend positions that are kinda for folks out in the network, as well as some additional kinda fundraising and staffing support that again, I I would urge you to kinda go into the documents, get more of the the specifics. But what I get from this is that there is thinking and strategy among, like, what what people resources do brigades need in order to be well supported as they go forward with this new vision of of things to come? And with that, then this document also mentions, goals. And what's interesting about these goals is that there's kind of different segments. There are some that are around that kinda community volunteer organizing bit, around goals like increasing the number of active volunteers that are involved, increasing the number of healthy brigades.\n\nI think some numbers that are mentioned here are, like, trying to go from 10,000 active volunteers to 20,000 and trying to get up to 70 healthy brigades that have a core leadership team and, internal governance structure of their own with at least one partnership. And my understanding now is that the contents of the proposal has been presented to leadership folks at the Coach for America nonprofit, and that now there's kinda some next steps that will come, At least, again, I'm speaking at kind of the the time of recording this, and that there's still a need to take all of this and develop a a budget, a plan for how to implement the things that were proposed here as well as to figure out then how to communicate about all of this to a very large number of people that are spread over a very large geographic area. So I think this is a topic, especially for to keep an eye on, especially if you're someone who's interested in this sort of volunteering. I think it's really interesting to see a kinda grassroots group really try to sit down and wrangle with these core questions of, why are we doing this?\n\nWhat change are we trying to make? And I'll be curious to see where this proposal ends up and how folks will end up reacting to it. Before we draw this episode to a close, I do have a quick meta note. We're going to be taking part in Code for America's Brigade Congress on Saturday with a live show, where we'll have a panel coming together, talk a bit about why folks volunteer, the realities of working on volunteer projects, and other things in between those topics. So if you're interested in checking that out, it will be virtual, and it will be at 12:30PM on Saturday.\n\nI will put links in the episode description giving you information on how to register for the conference as well as the schedule that lets you know when our session is. So hopefully I will see you all for the show and, perhaps bump into you on that Gather Town application they're using for the virtual conference as we all bumble around and talk a bit about Civic Tech. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civictechchat, visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.16, "end": 0.65999997 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us.", "start": 0.88, "end": 9.62 }, { "text": "The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society.", "start": 9.84, "end": 16.605 }, { "text": "We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more.", "start": 17.305, "end": 21.244999 }, { "text": "Either that, or maybe I'll rant about a topic for a while.", "start": 21.785, "end": 24.925 } ], "start": 0.16, "end": 24.925, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.", "start": 25.224998, "end": 30.6 }, { "text": "There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description.", "start": 31.06, "end": 34.6 }, { "text": "Do feel free to go check that out.", "start": 34.98, "end": 36.82 }, { "text": "It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it.", "start": 36.82, "end": 39.345 }, { "text": "It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech.", "start": 39.345, "end": 46.885002 } ], "start": 25.224998, "end": 46.885002, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show.", "start": 46.945, "end": 49.685 }, { "text": "This time, we're gonna be talking about an organization called Code for America.", "start": 50.145, "end": 53.925003 }, { "text": "It's a name you may have heard along the way if you've listened to episodes as there have been volunteers from that organization that have come on the program to talk a bit about initiatives they've had going on, including even their current CEO.", "start": 54.61, "end": 68.55 }, { "text": "But to catch folks up, why don't we talk a bit about what Code for America is?", "start": 69.675, "end": 73.375 }, { "text": "As I mentioned, it is a nonprofit, and one of the things they do is they partner with government at various levels to improve services delivery, often using techniques like human centered design.", "start": 73.835, "end": 85.17 } ], "start": 46.945, "end": 85.17, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In a way, you could think of them a bit like a nonprofit consultancy as they attempt to create partnerships and promote good practices through their work.", "start": 86.13, "end": 94.549995 }, { "text": "You might be familiar with some of the projects they've done, including the automatic records clearance work they've done in California, as well as the food benefits work they've done, the name of that being GetCalFresh, among others.", "start": 94.77, "end": 108.604996 }, { "text": "A lot of their work is very focused on things that are involved in service delivery and things like the social safety net.", "start": 108.744995, "end": 115.07 }, { "text": "But that's not the only portion of the organization that exists.", "start": 115.85, "end": 119.630005 }, { "text": "There's also this thing called the network.", "start": 119.93, "end": 122.270004 } ], "start": 86.13, "end": 122.270004, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But you might be wondering, well, what is the network, Ryan?", "start": 122.81, "end": 126.11 }, { "text": "It all comes back to this idea of there being these civic hacking groups that formed, and they've been around for quite a while.", "start": 126.814995, "end": 133.555 }, { "text": "And the network kind of came along as a way to form social bonds between such groups, and these groups as these groups are spread across different cities all across the country.", "start": 134.255, "end": 143.71 }, { "text": "And really what they are are folks that have come together to attempt to volunteer their time, their skills, that sort of thing to help improve nonprofits, to help improve the way government service is delivered, etcetera.", "start": 143.85, "end": 157.795 }, { "text": "And the way that then involves Code for America is that folks from that nonprofit then engage with these groups of volunteers to help facilitate connections through things like communication tools that are provided as well as through events like Brigade Congress and Summit.", "start": 158.495, "end": 173.81999 } ], "start": 122.81, "end": 173.81999, "num_words": 148.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What's interesting about this isn't so much that there's a grassroots organization out there of a bunch of kinda decentralized groups that are trying to improve their community, nor so much that there's a nonprofit that provides services and consulting to government.", "start": 174.43999, "end": 188.195 }, { "text": "But the fact that there's kinda both of these things together under the same umbrella.", "start": 188.895, "end": 192.995 }, { "text": "And that kind of leads into the conversation we're gonna have today, which is about something called network revisioning.", "start": 194.015, "end": 201.09001 }, { "text": "This is a project that was announced on a forum that Code for America uses on March 16, and it was described as an opportunity to revisit core questions about what the volunteer network is doing.", "start": 202.19, "end": 215.155 }, { "text": "Things like, why are we doing this?", "start": 215.855, "end": 218.515 } ], "start": 174.43999, "end": 218.515, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What is it we're trying to change?", "start": 219.215, "end": 220.995 }, { "text": "And what is our path forward?", "start": 221.69499, "end": 223.235 }, { "text": "Initially, in that post, there was an outlying of some potential paths and the promise of a journey ahead toward a recommendation influenced heavily by the volunteers themselves.", "start": 223.88, "end": 233.5 }, { "text": "Over the past seven months, there has no doubt been a lot of learning that's happened and a lot of exploration.", "start": 235.0, "end": 240.20499 }, { "text": "On this podcast for a long time, we've had this tradition of asking our guests, what is their personal why?", "start": 241.545, "end": 248.045 } ], "start": 219.215, "end": 248.045, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The thing that drives them to get out of bed each morning and do what they do.", "start": 248.34499, "end": 252.54999 }, { "text": "In a way, what we're about to do today is ask that sort of question, but to an entire grassroots organization.", "start": 253.17, "end": 260.79 }, { "text": "To that end, we'll talk to folks that were a part of this process.", "start": 262.69, "end": 265.75 }, { "text": "We'll talk about why this is happening, how conversations happened, how data was analyzed, and a bit about the path to implementation.", "start": 265.97, "end": 273.485 }, { "text": "So let's start with why.", "start": 274.26498, "end": 275.805 } ], "start": 248.34499, "end": 275.805, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To try to dig into that, I spoke to a group of folks that have been involved with this revisioning effort and with the volunteer network more generally for quite some time.", "start": 276.26498, "end": 284.86002 }, { "text": "So let's see what they had to say.", "start": 285.4, "end": 287.42 }, { "text": "Can each of you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?", "start": 287.72, "end": 291.42 } ], "start": 276.26498, "end": 291.42, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "My name is Janet Michalis.", "start": 291.64, "end": 293.02 }, { "text": "I am co captain of Code for Dayton, and I've been for about seven years.", "start": 293.24, "end": 298.275 }, { "text": "And I'm also on the National Advisory Council for Code for America, the regional representative for the Central Area.", "start": 298.275, "end": 305.57498 }, { "text": "And I'm in the second year of my second term, So I am in my last term limited time in this role.", "start": 306.115, "end": 315.12 } ], "start": 291.64, "end": 315.12, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hey.", "start": 315.66, "end": 315.9 }, { "text": "I'm Tim Leesman.", "start": 315.9, "end": 316.88 }, { "text": "I'm the co captain of code for Greensboro and was the cofacilitator of the data team during the the narrowing phase of revisioning, and I'm still working as a facilitator on a volunteer and partly paid position with Code for America right now.", "start": 317.5, "end": 334.025 }, { "text": "And I've been with Code for Greensboro for about three and a half years.", "start": 334.085, "end": 339.305 } ], "start": 315.66, "end": 339.305, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "My", "start": 340.78, "end": 340.86 } ], "start": 340.78, "end": 340.86, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "name is m Burnett.", "start": 340.86, "end": 342.08 }, { "text": "I use they, them pronouns.", "start": 342.38, "end": 343.91998 }, { "text": "I'm the senior community manager at Code for America, and that's I work on the network team, a lot of, you know, managing how our community operates.", "start": 344.38, "end": 355.25497 }, { "text": "And I am a longtime brigade member.", "start": 355.79498, "end": 358.055 }, { "text": "I used to be on the National Advisory Council, so I've kind of been in the space for a while.", "start": 358.595, "end": 364.35498 } ], "start": 340.86, "end": 364.35498, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And after taking a hiatus,", "start": 364.35498, "end": 366.24 } ], "start": 364.35498, "end": 366.24, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "writer, peer specialist, and game developer.", "start": 378.31998, "end": 380.875 }, { "text": "I've popcorn around the network in a lot of different, cameo scenarios and, worked on last year's Brigade Congress content committee.", "start": 381.735, "end": 392.76 }, { "text": "I joined the network revisioning team as the recommendations, lead writer during the closing phase of the process, and I'm super glad to be here.", "start": 393.22, "end": 403.48 } ], "start": 378.31998, "end": 403.48, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As each of you are thinking about this network revisioning process, why do you think the volunteer network decided to go forward with it and pursue it?", "start": 403.78, "end": 412.185 } ], "start": 403.78, "end": 412.185, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I would say it's it's overdue.", "start": 412.725, "end": 414.425 }, { "text": "And I think that the decision to move forward was based on years' worth of, kind of misalignment.", "start": 414.965, "end": 424.69 }, { "text": "And I also don't wanna give any misconceptions.", "start": 426.11002, "end": 429.97 }, { "text": "Like, a lot of the process was kind of fought for and advocated for, from CFA staff and especially from Meredith, the senior director of the the network.", "start": 430.27002, "end": 443.035 }, { "text": "And I think that that's important because, you know, we see and have seen for years that there's a misalignment or that we're not able to meet brigades needs and that the organization, isn't isn't focusing on brigades or supporting the program in the same way we'd like.", "start": 443.575, "end": 463.72 } ], "start": 412.725, "end": 463.72, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that was kind of the bubbling up, but the actual starting of the process and putting time, energy, resources behind it, was recognizing that those concerns were out there and devoting a ton of staff time towards it.", "start": 464.135, "end": 478.395 }, { "text": "So that's that's kind of some of the contexts.", "start": 479.175, "end": 481.73 }, { "text": "And I think that it's you know, overdue is the right word for it.", "start": 482.67, "end": 487.71002 }, { "text": "It's it's something that even in our inception, brigades existed before Code for America did.", "start": 487.71002, "end": 495.63498 }, { "text": "There were groups of open source civic hacker coders that existed before the organization did.", "start": 495.63498, "end": 501.41498 } ], "start": 464.135, "end": 501.41498, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think when you have this, it's a really difficult situation where you have a traditional nonprofit and then nonhierarchical distributed network coming in, that's gonna have some friction.", "start": 501.715, "end": 514.08 }, { "text": "And this is kind of a clarity of relationship that is felt, I hope, on on multiple sides.", "start": 514.14, "end": 520.54 }, { "text": "But I've certainly heard from Code for America, from other staffers, staffers, from people in in leadership saying, wow.", "start": 520.54, "end": 528.915 }, { "text": "This is the clearest articulation of what the network needs that we've ever seen.", "start": 528.915, "end": 533.575 }, { "text": "And, yeah, the word overdue comes to mind, but I think there's there's more to it too.", "start": 534.195, "end": 539.43 } ], "start": 501.715, "end": 539.43, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, yeah, it's it's something that I think has been raised over and over and over again of what do we actually what kind of change are we actually making, and how do we relate to the organization?", "start": 539.81, "end": 551.02997 } ], "start": 539.81, "end": 551.02997, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ryan, as I said, I have been on the National Advisory Council for, three years.", "start": 552.05, "end": 557.96497 }, { "text": "And in 2019 at a National Advisory Council meeting, we were talking about making future plans, and we were doing post it note activities, etcetera.", "start": 558.50494, "end": 571.87 }, { "text": "And we figured out that we really couldn't plan what we wanted to do as a network until we had a better understanding of how we fit with Code for America.", "start": 572.01, "end": 583.47 }, { "text": "When Code for America started, there weren't any brigades.", "start": 584.845, "end": 588.465 }, { "text": "There were just, fellowships, and it was based on teach for America model.", "start": 588.685, "end": 593.825 } ], "start": 552.05, "end": 593.825, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And as the organization evolved and they created the volunteer part of the organization, its relationship with the rest of Code for America had not been explicitly, examined.", "start": 594.525, "end": 607.96 }, { "text": "It really was just an evolution.", "start": 608.02, "end": 609.495 }, { "text": "And so out of that meeting came something that we were calling, theory of change.", "start": 610.515, "end": 618.055 }, { "text": "And we did some other exercises and discussions with, the executives at Code for America.", "start": 618.995, "end": 624.81 }, { "text": "And later, that process turned into, revisioning.", "start": 625.05, "end": 629.23 } ], "start": 594.525, "end": 629.23, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I would add to that that from my perspective, when I stepped into brigade leadership in 2018.", "start": 630.17, "end": 640.135 }, { "text": "After getting an onboarding session with Code for America and starting to get into the brigade network at, Brigade Congress twenty eighteen in Charlotte, I noticed that, outside of our regional group of North Carolina and Southeast brigades, there didn't seem to be much outside of the Brigade Congress, intentional cross Brigade collaboration and events where we joined each other and talked about best practices.", "start": 641.315, "end": 680.99 }, { "text": "And one key part of that also was feeling like we, as brigade leaders, wanted to find ways to support ourselves as a network and have Code for America provide support for our work more intentionally.", "start": 681.77, "end": 700.445 }, { "text": "And so there was a call for that as well that I think was part of the revisioning process decision or the decision to go forward with the revisioning process.", "start": 700.505, "end": 712.71 }, { "text": "And at every point, people who got involved, you know, the saying, we decided to go forward with the revisioning process as a volunteer network.", "start": 713.49, "end": 725.235 } ], "start": 630.17, "end": 725.235, "num_words": 173.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Work.", "start": 725.795, "end": 726.295 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 727.15497, "end": 727.235 }, { "text": "This was really, over time, people joining a conversation and saying, hey.", "start": 727.235, "end": 734.915 }, { "text": "This would be a good thing to reinvent our role in the way that we work together.", "start": 734.915, "end": 739.89 }, { "text": "And sometimes people would leave that conversation and come back into it over the years.", "start": 740.19, "end": 746.61 } ], "start": 725.795, "end": 746.61, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But every time that someone joined, it's like, hey.", "start": 746.99, "end": 749.07 }, { "text": "Wait.", "start": 749.07, "end": 749.31 }, { "text": "This is this is like a needed conversation.", "start": 749.31, "end": 751.35504 }, { "text": "Let's keep doing this.", "start": 751.895, "end": 753.11505 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 753.255, "end": 753.575 } ], "start": 746.99, "end": 753.575, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it wasn't just one time that we decided, you know, let's make a let's make a big change.", "start": 753.575, "end": 760.47504 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 760.61505, "end": 761.11505 }, { "text": "Over the course of time, the conversation kept building towards we need to make a change, and here's how we might do it in a way consistent with our value our values.", "start": 761.17505, "end": 773.64 } ], "start": 753.575, "end": 773.64, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I I feel like my perspective code for America community, I spent some time on the sidelines watching watching the work come out, either from the organization or from the volunteer network.", "start": 775.7, "end": 798.31 }, { "text": "A a a division between them wasn't easy for me to perceive as such.", "start": 799.08997, "end": 802.69 }, { "text": "To me, it was all just code for America work.", "start": 802.69, "end": 805.385 }, { "text": "So when I did enter into the, network community, the volunteer community more properly and, you know, began to understand some of the historical relationship between that volunteer side and the more formal organization side, some of that history there.", "start": 806.325, "end": 824.01 }, { "text": "I was surprised by the level of friction that could be sustained and people still show up to the work on both sides of that equation.", "start": 825.19, "end": 837.235 } ], "start": 775.7, "end": 837.235, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I was really intrigued by that, that this was a community, on both sides of a formal organized side and the more volunteer, maybe, rapid turnover, higher volume side.", "start": 837.615, "end": 852.4 }, { "text": "I was really intrigued by that relationship and felt that where where the revisioning process is at now is a natural a natural peak.", "start": 852.94, "end": 866.685 }, { "text": "It's a natural, end to the friction that came before volunteers are I'm sure.", "start": 866.685, "end": 886.67505 }, { "text": "But yeah.", "start": 887.79504, "end": 888.435 } ], "start": 837.615, "end": 888.435, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What are each of you hoping that the volunteer network gets out of the process?", "start": 888.435, "end": 891.895 } ], "start": 888.435, "end": 891.895, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It would be nice if the revisioning process becomes in something that's incorporated going forward into constantly reevaluating where we are and not that this gets set in stone for the next ten years, but that that feedback loop improves so that we can refine ourselves faster.", "start": 892.35504, "end": 913.99 }, { "text": "My hope for the end of revisioning is that anyone who shows up to Code for America, and and it's easier to show up now because you can show up online, and says, I wanna be a part of this work, that they're not obligated to attach themselves to a geographically archimedes brigade or start one themselves, but there will be a way for them to find meaningful work", "start": 914.645, "end": 941.355 } ], "start": 892.35504, "end": 941.355, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "that", "start": 941.355, "end": 941.595 } ], "start": 941.355, "end": 941.595, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "they can do within the network.", "start": 941.595, "end": 943.135 } ], "start": 941.595, "end": 943.135, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "When I when I first joined Code for Greensboro's leadership, the original people who had gotten together to form Code for Greensboro had formed a board and filed as a five zero one c three.", "start": 943.355, "end": 955.035 }, { "text": "And, like, their goal was to to quit day jobs and and work, full time doing this and and have a five zero one c three.", "start": 955.035, "end": 963.89996 }, { "text": "And it turned the five zero one c three structure is very rigid and turned out not to be the right fit for a spontaneously driven and volunteer based model of working.", "start": 964.04, "end": 979.39496 }, { "text": "So when I came on on board, if I I think that if a few of us hadn't raised our hands, just two of us, to keep the organization going and say we we would step into the co captain role, it might have gone dormant.", "start": 979.695, "end": 995.52997 }, { "text": "And so another thing that has always been on my mind through this and leadership transition and, like, how to get new people into civic tech, How can we, reenvision the way that brigade leadership is handed off and sustain it when key people, you know, move on to other things in life.", "start": 995.965, "end": 1024.855 } ], "start": 943.355, "end": 1024.855, "num_words": 192.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something that I hope the volunteer network gets out of the process is that pathway to leadership that is organic and helps to to build grassroots support in each of the communities where we work.", "start": 1024.855, "end": 1041.0 }, { "text": "So it's not just like, start a brigade, work on a project with your government, maybe an election cycle goes by, and go away.", "start": 1041.14, "end": 1049.38 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1049.38, "end": 1049.715 }, { "text": "But actually build partnerships with other organizations working in the community, not just government so that the civic tech support in any given community where we work is is organic and is sustainable.", "start": 1050.195, "end": 1067.7 }, { "text": "And I think that's what I hope we get towards with what comes out of and the next steps in the revisioning work.", "start": 1068.16, "end": 1076.205 } ], "start": 1024.855, "end": 1076.205, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Next, we'll talk a bit about the research phases to this process for network revisioning.", "start": 1076.365, "end": 1081.585 }, { "text": "One of those is referred to as peer to peer conversations.", "start": 1082.365, "end": 1086.065 }, { "text": "Effectively, what would happen is that folks that were volunteering with this effort would set up one on one and small group conversations, where they would try to work through a series of questions in order to figure out things like what values the individual has and how they relate to the network, their views on the way the network is now, and their hopes for how the network could be in the future, among other things.", "start": 1087.005, "end": 1111.535 }, { "text": "So let's go ahead and check out a conversation about this step along the way.", "start": 1111.915, "end": 1116.415 }, { "text": "Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?", "start": 1116.9551, "end": 1119.96 } ], "start": 1076.365, "end": 1119.96, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi, Ryan.", "start": 1120.9199, "end": 1121.5599 }, { "text": "Thank you for having me here.", "start": 1121.5599, "end": 1123.26 }, { "text": "My name is Yancy Aberra.", "start": 1123.96, "end": 1125.98 }, { "text": "And so I joined the network revisioning space.", "start": 1126.44, "end": 1130.0599 }, { "text": "I'm I'm also co organizer for for Coach for Atlanta.", "start": 1130.9199, "end": 1133.735 } ], "start": 1120.9199, "end": 1133.735, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And to just explain to you a little bit, Ryan, how I got here is, you know, last year in 2020, because of COVID and the virtual status of things, I, volunteered to help out plan the Brigade Congress event.", "start": 1134.435, "end": 1148.78 }, { "text": "And so, I met some wonderful people there and primarily and and some of the folks actually were actually also helping out with technical visioning work Omit.", "start": 1149.64, "end": 1159.9149 }, { "text": "And I felt like we've made great connections.", "start": 1160.0549, "end": 1162.215 }, { "text": "That was actually my first window into Brigade of Congress because I hadn't attended before and realizing that there's a lot more outside of what I do with Coach for Atlanta by way of networking and building relationships.", "start": 1162.215, "end": 1177.4801 }, { "text": "Fast forward 2021 and reaches out and asks, hey.", "start": 1177.78, "end": 1182.8201 } ], "start": 1134.435, "end": 1182.8201, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Do you wanna help out with network revisioning, you know, based on our experience and all those things I've done.", "start": 1182.8201, "end": 1189.615 }, { "text": "And I was super excited to do it.", "start": 1189.755, "end": 1191.4349 }, { "text": "And I joined at the time, I think it was Tim from code for, Greensboro.", "start": 1191.4349, "end": 1197.455 }, { "text": "And we were, you know, the first ones on the team, and we literally, like, had those works work going into the process by way of thinking and identifying key areas of, you know, themes in terms of values and directions.", "start": 1198.075, "end": 1211.9601 }, { "text": "And so we when I joined, we were the initially the first working group with the revision process, and I was working on the peer to peer side of it.", "start": 1212.1001, "end": 1223.4551 } ], "start": 1182.8201, "end": 1223.4551, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Why has the network embarked on the peer to peer conversation effort that you've been a part of?", "start": 1223.915, "end": 1229.135 } ], "start": 1223.915, "end": 1229.135, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that there's a key understanding to check-in, engage where everyone is at in terms of, you know, why why we do the things we do, and what resonates or registers for, you know, our peers across the network.", "start": 1229.355, "end": 1250.04 }, { "text": "And so I think my understanding of it is in ensuing conversations, you know, starting, I think, with brigade congress even before that, I think this conversation probably has been prickly for many years, you know, seeking some kind of solution on how do how do we work, what's our goal, how are we unified in our effort, why do we do what we do, you know, what's our footprint or impact in this world.", "start": 1250.655, "end": 1275.105 }, { "text": "And so stemming from all of that, I think there was a need to reach out and really better understand wherever one was at.", "start": 1275.4049, "end": 1283.585 }, { "text": "And so, you know, outreach to peers, it's touches our the peer to peer working team that we found that we're working on was one type of peer to peer that we were experiment.", "start": 1283.885, "end": 1295.0801 }, { "text": "Meaning, in addition to surveys and focus groups and, you know, larger meetings, this was just a one to one interaction where we would have, you know, a person on the Zoom call virtually and have that conversation in a way that we didn't I think the network did not look before in such a structured and comprehensive matter, helped, like, get a real sense of, you know, what what the sentiments are, feedback, thoughts, anything that we would otherwise not be able to capture in other forms of peer to peer interaction.", "start": 1295.3, "end": 1328.69 } ], "start": 1229.355, "end": 1328.69, "num_words": 266.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so I think that it was part of the whole, effort to get to get get and pull in and engage peers, and also gauge where we are in terms of, like, defining what the proposed pathways should be and what what the revisioning recommendations we ultimately wanna reflect is everything that we've heard from everyone.", "start": 1328.83, "end": 1350.51 } ], "start": 1328.83, "end": 1350.51, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Are there any insights that came out of these conversations that surprised you?", "start": 1351.05, "end": 1355.31 } ], "start": 1351.05, "end": 1355.31, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think what surprised me in a in a pleasant way and what what made which surprised I I think I was surprised on my own also in some ways reaction to it is this idea of bridging connections with, peers across the network and realizing, you know, as you're sharing, where they stand, mostly what they've done, where they're coming from, how incredible our network really is.", "start": 1355.725, "end": 1385.235 }, { "text": "And there are some incredible people doing amazing work.", "start": 1385.235, "end": 1388.435 }, { "text": "And each time I'm having a conversation, I'm wondering, like, I feel I find myself to be very lucky in that position because I'm wondering, like, how would someone else know what I'm actually experiencing and knowing in this moment?", "start": 1388.435, "end": 1400.43 }, { "text": "And the realization that not only is just is this an expressed desire from the perspective of peers to connect with other peers because there's so much to share.", "start": 1401.05, "end": 1409.79 }, { "text": "We have so much in common, and there's so much we're achieving.", "start": 1410.41, "end": 1414.1849 } ], "start": 1355.725, "end": 1414.1849, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But this was my my thing this, which is which feels like this is an amazing thing to want to really for the network.", "start": 1414.4049, "end": 1423.5449 }, { "text": "And it will move us forward, I feel.", "start": 1424.565, "end": 1426.565 }, { "text": "And so I think while we're trying to find that structure on how we do it, we're trying to come together, you know, in a way that we will have to build it as we as we forward in a way that makes sense to to everyone.", "start": 1426.565, "end": 1439.57 }, { "text": "I think this idea of a peer to peer connection, I think it's a foundational aspect of our network.", "start": 1439.57, "end": 1444.615 }, { "text": "I do feel that just that it's a network working together.", "start": 1444.9349, "end": 1448.215 } ], "start": 1414.4049, "end": 1448.215, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think the desire for all of us, every pair that I have to I for majority, to connect and communicate with each other is very strongly there.", "start": 1448.215, "end": 1455.835 }, { "text": "And so it's just I I was surprised at how much people are willing to lean in with whatever they have to share.", "start": 1456.07, "end": 1462.41 }, { "text": "There's just a desire to wanna engage and communicate.", "start": 1462.63, "end": 1466.65 }, { "text": "And some folks said, we've never been asked these questions.", "start": 1466.79, "end": 1469.69 }, { "text": "We've never had this kind of conversation before.", "start": 1469.75, "end": 1472.275 } ], "start": 1448.215, "end": 1472.275, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think that this is why I feel like the very important part, it could be a right part of what we do here at the time.", "start": 1472.275, "end": 1479.5751 } ], "start": 1472.275, "end": 1479.5751, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As was mentioned there, along with those one on one conversations and the information that they yielded, there were also things involved like surveys, larger group engagements, all bringing data into the process that would be looked at in trying to figure out where folks in the network are at.", "start": 1480.515, "end": 1498.635 }, { "text": "So our next conversation is gonna dig into a bit of the experience in bringing structure to the analysis process as well as the challenges that they faced in trying to make sense of it all.", "start": 1498.775, "end": 1510.11 }, { "text": "Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?", "start": 1511.47, "end": 1515.09 } ], "start": 1480.515, "end": 1515.09, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi.", "start": 1516.11, "end": 1516.51 }, { "text": "My name is Jennifer Miller, and I am a co organizer of the North Carolina Statewide Network Of Brigades.", "start": 1516.51, "end": 1524.61 }, { "text": "My background is in teaching and doing research in public policy.", "start": 1525.5449, "end": 1529.1649 }, { "text": "And right now, I'm focusing on projects that advance open knowledge, so in the areas of open data, open education, and open science.", "start": 1529.865, "end": 1539.565 } ], "start": 1516.11, "end": 1539.565, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In our conversation before this interview, you mentioned that one of your primary roles has been to bring structure to the data analysis process.", "start": 1540.46, "end": 1548.8 }, { "text": "Can you talk to us a bit about that experience?", "start": 1549.18, "end": 1551.2 } ], "start": 1540.46, "end": 1551.2, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yes.", "start": 1552.14, "end": 1552.64 }, { "text": "I joined the data team for the revisioning process, and the team was clearly working very hard and doing a lot, but I think had gotten a little bit ahead of itself.", "start": 1553.02, "end": 1567.555 }, { "text": "I could see places where a little more structure underlying the team's work would really make a difference.", "start": 1567.615, "end": 1574.1799 }, { "text": "One of the main areas where I added structure was to bring some of the Code for America perspective on usability to think about our volunteer taggers or coders, data coders as the end users.", "start": 1575.36, "end": 1591.005 }, { "text": "And here, I wrote up a, more detailed step by step process on data tagging and, rearrange the process so the taggers could do almost all of their work on one screen, you know, minimizing the extra work from a user perspective of having to move from screen to screen while also keeping some very fairly complex abstract ideas that they were identifying in the tagging process.", "start": 1591.9451, "end": 1621.5951 } ], "start": 1552.14, "end": 1621.5951, "num_words": 153.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So you you mentioned that that work in attempting to tag data as part of this process.", "start": 1624.295, "end": 1629.26 }, { "text": "What sort of data were you all working with as you're going through that?", "start": 1629.72, "end": 1632.9401 } ], "start": 1624.295, "end": 1632.9401, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We were working with survey data.", "start": 1634.36, "end": 1636.54 }, { "text": "And so some of the data was from a survey about the the Code for America values where people had submitted qualitative responses, written responses about the extent to which they felt Code for America lived up to a series of values.", "start": 1637.0801, "end": 1656.63 }, { "text": "For describing how brigades achieve, change, for describing how brigades achieve, change, their theory of change, and how brigades actually, you know, accomplish their impact in the world.", "start": 1656.63, "end": 1678.9551 }, { "text": "And then there was some very loosely structured forum data that took the form of, speaker remarks, chat comments, and other texts that came as part of a series of online forums that were held that invited everyone, to comment on various aspects of the revisioning process.", "start": 1679.7351, "end": 1703.645 } ], "start": 1634.36, "end": 1703.645, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We we've talked about how folks are are using these these these tools to to the act of tagging.", "start": 1705.0651, "end": 1709.785 }, { "text": "That's that's a term that's come up a couple of times.", "start": 1709.785, "end": 1711.98 }, { "text": "For folks that might not be familiar with what that means, could you talk a bit about what that act is?", "start": 1712.14, "end": 1717.44 } ], "start": 1705.0651, "end": 1717.44, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We loaded the survey data into Airtable, which is kind of an online form of a spreadsheet with some additional functionality.", "start": 1718.14, "end": 1728.405 }, { "text": "And, actually, tagging involved reading an excerpt of text and then thinking through a series of categories.", "start": 1729.505, "end": 1740.23 }, { "text": "The categories included pathway, strategy, relationships.", "start": 1741.0099, "end": 1746.1499 }, { "text": "And then for each category, the tagger was asked to think about a number of tags and whether or not they applied.", "start": 1747.4099, "end": 1755.445 }, { "text": "So within the strategy category, people were asked to think about, does a tag for partnerships apply?", "start": 1756.5449, "end": 1768.1201 } ], "start": 1718.14, "end": 1768.1201, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For does a tag around efficiency apply?", "start": 1768.1201, "end": 1772.7001 }, { "text": "And they would Airtable has kind of a color coding, so you would select the the tag that matched to the concept.", "start": 1773.4, "end": 1781.2251 } ], "start": 1768.1201, "end": 1781.2251, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I imagine that working with this sort of data presents its own unique challenges.", "start": 1782.5651, "end": 1787.305 }, { "text": "What were some of those that y'all had to work through going through this process?", "start": 1787.765, "end": 1791.305 } ], "start": 1782.5651, "end": 1791.305, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'd like to talk about two challenges specifically.", "start": 1792.64, "end": 1796.26 }, { "text": "First was another example of bringing structure to the process.", "start": 1796.88, "end": 1800.4199 }, { "text": "Something that we lacked in addition to a step by step process was we lacked a codebook.", "start": 1801.2799, "end": 1806.995 }, { "text": "And a codebook explains exactly what we mean by each of those categories and each of those tags.", "start": 1808.175, "end": 1815.795 }, { "text": "It's easy to think that you all understand what is meant by strategy and partnerships until you start comparing the idea in your head with the idea in someone else's head.", "start": 1816.655, "end": 1827.65 } ], "start": 1792.64, "end": 1827.65, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then you realize that you're not actually using those terms in the same way.", "start": 1828.11, "end": 1832.085 }, { "text": "So creating the code book was a big step forward toward getting our volunteer taggers to use those tags and concepts consistently.", "start": 1832.565, "end": 1841.865 }, { "text": "Another challenge that we face with the data is that the vast majority of the data was not collected with the specific question of what should be the new vision for the brigades.", "start": 1844.4049, "end": 1856.7899 }, { "text": "The majority of the tag responses were around the question of various values.", "start": 1858.45, "end": 1864.205 }, { "text": "There were some surveys that asked specifically which of the three pathways that we were contemplating people should use, but those had fairly low response rates.", "start": 1865.385, "end": 1877.61 } ], "start": 1828.11, "end": 1877.61, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And we also found that people interpreted the three pathways very differently, and, ultimately, we had to move away from pathways as a structure for articulating our results.", "start": 1878.33, "end": 1891.39 }, { "text": "And then the forums also were focused on specific aspects of revisioning, but none of the survey responses that we had were specifically people writing.", "start": 1892.5249, "end": 1905.1849 }, { "text": "I think the way to describe how brigades will create change is this.", "start": 1905.965, "end": 1911.8099 }, { "text": "So we had to tease out the key themes from people's answers to different questions.", "start": 1912.4299, "end": 1918.45 } ], "start": 1878.33, "end": 1918.45, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Another interesting comment was made during this conversation about that balance between rigor and openness that took their academic background into account.", "start": 1920.075, "end": 1930.735 }, { "text": "Unfortunately, I didn't really have, like, a question to prompt beforehand, but I did wanna make sure y'all got that context.", "start": 1931.14, "end": 1937.38 }, { "text": "So before we move on to the next section, take a listen to this comment.", "start": 1937.38, "end": 1941.64 } ], "start": 1920.075, "end": 1941.64, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So one thing coming from an academic background, one thing that for an academic study would have been very important is interrater reliability.", "start": 1943.22, "end": 1952.1951 }, { "text": "That is looking very carefully at whether the taggers were applying those tags in the same way.", "start": 1953.375, "end": 1961.33 }, { "text": "In an academic study, it would be very important that if you and I read the same text, we chose the same tags for all of the categories.", "start": 1962.11, "end": 1971.49 }, { "text": "And your taggers need to be trained until they achieve those type of results, and then you can let them work a bit independently.", "start": 1973.15, "end": 1981.855 }, { "text": "We were really committed to having an open tagging process in which volunteers could drop in, get trained up quickly, participate, really an open form of engagement with the tagging.", "start": 1983.675, "end": 1996.2 } ], "start": 1943.22, "end": 1996.2, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And this meant that we were not really able to strive for an inter rater reliability metric.", "start": 1996.58, "end": 2003.08 } ], "start": 1996.58, "end": 2003.08, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 6 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So now that all this information is gathered, insights have been drawn from it ostensibly, there is then the question of, well, what do we do with all that we've learned here?", "start": 2004.535, "end": 2013.515 }, { "text": "Which leads us to our next conversation about something called the implementation phase.", "start": 2013.655, "end": 2018.0751 }, { "text": "And to that end, we will be joined again by Em and Renee, who talked to us a bit during the why portion of our conversation at the beginning to talk a bit about what this phase is, as well as the impact they think it might have for folks volunteering in the network.", "start": 2018.65, "end": 2033.15 }, { "text": "Y'all have joined this conversation to talk a bit about the implementation portion of this process that this episode's been covering.", "start": 2034.4049, "end": 2042.265 }, { "text": "Can you talk a bit about what that means in this context?", "start": 2042.6449, "end": 2045.865 } ], "start": 2004.535, "end": 2045.865, "num_words": 132.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Implementation is not not necessarily the most exciting word for it, but we're kind of talking about from an organizational perspective, what does it mean to take this long recommendation, programmatic changes, and put them into reality, from kind of the brigade level up.", "start": 2046.725, "end": 2067.465 }, { "text": "So, you know, this looks like from nuts and bolts, it's hiring new staff, but it's also creating new program areas.", "start": 2067.465, "end": 2075.725 }, { "text": "And then I think the harder part is culture change and trying to achieve what I think Renee put so well in the recommendation of parity and respect for the work that the volunteer network does, which is, of course, the hardest of all of those.", "start": 2075.865, "end": 2094.785 }, { "text": "It's it's easy to hire staff, but to kind of make up for ten years of a relationship that has been, at times, very ill defined, is a is a bit more challenging.", "start": 2094.785, "end": 2106.6448 } ], "start": 2046.725, "end": 2106.6448, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As I understand, you know, the implementation process is a change management process with, like, a lot of moving pieces.", "start": 2107.52, "end": 2114.74 }, { "text": "And some of those pieces are easy to fix in place because they're rather obvious and easy to understand.", "start": 2115.8398, "end": 2122.615 }, { "text": "But there are a lot of other pieces that are harder to sort out, and that's where it takes the collective action of everyone involved under the name of Code for America to get involved.", "start": 2123.795, "end": 2134.71 }, { "text": "But in order for that part of implementation to be successful, yeah, that that culture change for everyone, at least strengthening what we recognize about its value, about treating each other as peers, wherever we're at in life, and understanding what that really means on a deeper level when we're working together on things we're passionate about, things that really impact our lives directly.", "start": 2134.71, "end": 2162.25 }, { "text": "So that's what I am really interested in seeing through the implementation phase is how understanding each other better as peers gets us moving on making change happen.", "start": 2164.1501, "end": 2176.1702 } ], "start": 2107.52, "end": 2176.1702, "num_words": 166.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What will the implementation mean for folks that are out there right now just kinda doing that volunteer thing out in the network?", "start": 2176.695, "end": 2182.875 } ], "start": 2176.695, "end": 2182.875, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that some of the biggest changes are I think Renee has worded this as pathways.", "start": 2183.655, "end": 2190.5552 }, { "text": "So if you're kind of maybe in the network or interested in civic tech and you join our Slack right now, which is kind of the the community space, there's there's actually not that many clear ways for you to get plugged into a project and to kind of practice what you you think you're able to do by joining the community.", "start": 2191.77, "end": 2212.265 }, { "text": "You know, it's it feels very unfulfilling from the staff perspective to say, go find your local brigade and see if they have a project because we know that oftentimes there's there's not always a good match there, and it can be difficult to actually have someone find their place in the community.", "start": 2212.4849, "end": 2230.46 }, { "text": "So with implementation and changing how our community operates and changing the programs, we're hoping to create, like, very clear pathways for someone to come into the community.", "start": 2230.52, "end": 2242.355 }, { "text": "So that might look like instead of just a kind of big wide net of a a Slack community, you also have, join a community of practice.", "start": 2242.895, "end": 2252.51 } ], "start": 2183.655, "end": 2252.51, "num_words": 187.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, say you're a a beginning product manager and you want to kind of apply some of your learnings and learn from other peers in that space who are also product managers, you can join that community of practice.", "start": 2252.73, "end": 2265.225 }, { "text": "If you, you know, we kind of see a kind of the beginnings of of the national action team model with National Day of Civic Hacking, and that's something where we would have multiple ways for someone to multiple projects or initiatives that someone could join, whether that's the nine one one project or another one.", "start": 2265.8452, "end": 2284.54 }, { "text": "And those are very clear pathways.", "start": 2284.76, "end": 2286.3801 }, { "text": "And I think in addition, there's just more support in the ways that brigades express that they need support.", "start": 2287.56, "end": 2294.5352 }, { "text": "So one of the options is stipends for project managers because that came up over and over and over again as something that brigades need help on.", "start": 2295.0752, "end": 2304.675 } ], "start": 2252.73, "end": 2304.675, "num_words": 148.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's I think there's just a more established pathway both for volunteers to get involved and for a brigade to get support.", "start": 2304.675, "end": 2313.4001 }, { "text": "And I'll also just add, like, you know, that has to all be implemented still, and it's not we're not complete in that process.", "start": 2313.4001, "end": 2319.825 }, { "text": "So some of that may come to fruition and some of that might look a little bit different.", "start": 2320.205, "end": 2323.905 } ], "start": 2304.675, "end": 2323.905, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To further, illustrate the pathways concept and and where I came to it from, you know, I had to very much carve my own path through the network to find the kind of interests and skill sets that, I needed for the work I was doing on my own or that I could offer, maybe not directly to the brigade in my area, but, you know, on projects elsewhere or elsewise.", "start": 2324.205, "end": 2349.525 }, { "text": "And I felt very much that I was carving desire paths, which is like a civic engineering understanding of, like, you build a sidewalk, it cuts around a certain way, and then people will walk right across the grass and build their like, their own path will develop.", "start": 2350.305, "end": 2365.31 }, { "text": "So, you know, I I had tried all of those formal pathways that existed.", "start": 2365.85, "end": 2371.1501 }, { "text": "None of them really suited the way in which I could, like, link up most effectively from where I sat with my life and my work.", "start": 2371.37, "end": 2378.505 }, { "text": "And as I began to look for ways to integrate myself into this community, I saw a lot of people doing the same thing.", "start": 2378.585, "end": 2384.6848 } ], "start": 2324.205, "end": 2384.6848, "num_words": 183.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So a lot of what's described as hopeful for implementation is trying to put language to those realities as they exist in such a decentralized, you know, independently carved out way.", "start": 2384.9849, "end": 2399.69 }, { "text": "So trying to bring some support to that, means creating language that kind of doesn't exist in the community.", "start": 2400.07, "end": 2408.105 }, { "text": "So, some of the implementation will involve just getting used to naming things instead of just them existing without a name.", "start": 2408.325, "end": 2417.625 }, { "text": "And that's where, you know, the volunteer network can really fill out a lot of the unknown by naming the ways in which they've carved their own path through this work.", "start": 2418.66, "end": 2427.96 }, { "text": "We we need those, you know, we need them to identify where the sidewalk ended for them, and they diverged and what worked for them and why.", "start": 2428.66, "end": 2438.495 } ], "start": 2384.9849, "end": 2438.495, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Let's imagine a world where the implementation phase has completed, and it was as successful as as you would have liked it to be.", "start": 2438.955, "end": 2447.055 }, { "text": "What are y'all hoping that the network will have gotten out of that process if that's happened?", "start": 2447.435, "end": 2451.84 } ], "start": 2438.955, "end": 2451.84, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What I love most about the Code for America community is there are not prerequisites despite all evidence that only skilled work comes out of the cream of the crop or what have you.", "start": 2452.38, "end": 2468.325 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 2468.325, "end": 2468.805 }, { "text": "There's there's no prerequisite to have some sort of certificate or degree or anything like that.", "start": 2468.805, "end": 2474.805 }, { "text": "You basically you just agree to abide by the code of conduct.", "start": 2474.805, "end": 2477.8901 }, { "text": "And as long as you're ready to show up underneath that umbrella, you have a space to be heard.", "start": 2478.1902, "end": 2482.85 } ], "start": 2452.38, "end": 2482.85, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is very necessary framework, from where I come from in advocacy with the disability community.", "start": 2483.87, "end": 2490.29 }, { "text": "In that community, those kinds of agreements are the only way we can create the inter interdependence that we need.", "start": 2490.75, "end": 2499.705 }, { "text": "And interdependence is a framework that I think works really great for the Code for America community.", "start": 2500.085, "end": 2505.81 }, { "text": "It's collective action with a lot of autonomy held within it.", "start": 2505.8699, "end": 2511.01 }, { "text": "And so I'm hoping to see that this, peer specialist work that I can bring in to help give language to a community that struggles to understand itself along parity lines.", "start": 2511.47, "end": 2524.545 } ], "start": 2483.87, "end": 2524.545, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm hoping that through implementation, through the culture change required, for some of those mechanisms to work, that we understand our collective action is interdependent rather than independent and that you can be decentralized and and still connected very closely to one another.", "start": 2525.325, "end": 2546.2798 } ], "start": 2525.325, "end": 2546.2798, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 5 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's that's really well said.", "start": 2546.895, "end": 2548.7551 }, { "text": "And relatedly, I I hope that there's some some better or more significant impact that the network has.", "start": 2549.455, "end": 2557.715 }, { "text": "And I think part of that gets down to how we operate together, how we kind of make change.", "start": 2557.935, "end": 2564.3 }, { "text": "Those are big questions that we're asking through this process.", "start": 2564.84, "end": 2567.66 }, { "text": "And I think looking at our history, we have done a lot of projects that didn't really didn't really do that much, if we're being honest.", "start": 2568.28, "end": 2577.855 } ], "start": 2546.895, "end": 2577.855, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think implementation focuses you know, a big focus is community partnership, and we heard that a ton in talking to brigades was, you know, actually, my local government doesn't wanna work with us, but community groups do.", "start": 2577.855, "end": 2593.76 }, { "text": "And I think that by taking a stand and saying, okay.", "start": 2594.3, "end": 2597.935 }, { "text": "We're we're really focusing on this being our main pathway for change by helping groups that are already doing the work.", "start": 2598.115, "end": 2606.095 }, { "text": "That feels really significant and, like, a bigger change from kind of the tech saviorism that was our kind of founding DNA.", "start": 2606.955, "end": 2615.31 }, { "text": "And my hope is that once revisioning is done and we are in a new phase of this work, the next decade sees a lot more impact and a lot more, kind of ways that we're helping people directly, and and fewer kind of I think we'd call them self actualization projects.", "start": 2616.49, "end": 2635.715 } ], "start": 2577.855, "end": 2635.715, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you for making it this far into the conversation.", "start": 2637.72, "end": 2640.22 }, { "text": "I think we've done well exploring how we hit these why questions, these core questions that the network has been exploring in through how research was done, how data from that research was handled, into then what it looks like to try to implement some of the things that were learned.", "start": 2640.6, "end": 2657.705 }, { "text": "One of the deliverers that did come from this process, and it's been mentioned, I think, a couple of times in these conversations, is this idea of there being a proposal.", "start": 2658.645, "end": 2666.665 }, { "text": "And at the taping of this, there is a proposal that has been released that's available out online for you to read.", "start": 2667.7, "end": 2675.32 }, { "text": "I will have that linked in the episode description, but I do wanna talk about it at least a little bit before we end the episode.", "start": 2675.46, "end": 2682.805 } ], "start": 2637.72, "end": 2682.805, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The document has a ton of information in it.", "start": 2683.6648, "end": 2686.385 }, { "text": "It talks a lot about purpose, values, governance participatory process, digs into some of the things we talked about in these conversations, like data methods, research methods, and findings.", "start": 2686.385, "end": 2698.02 }, { "text": "But the thing I do wanna focus on for the moment in voice are, some of the changes that come with this proposal compared to what's currently going on in the network.", "start": 2698.32, "end": 2711.075 }, { "text": "So there's a couple of key points as I have this in front of me and go over it with y'all.", "start": 2711.455, "end": 2715.955 }, { "text": "And one of those is that it seems there's a change away from leading with government partnership, instead of focusing on leading with community partnership and accountability.", "start": 2716.015, "end": 2726.94 } ], "start": 2683.6648, "end": 2726.94, "num_words": 118.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Those are the kind of the words that are used in the document.", "start": 2727.4, "end": 2729.5 }, { "text": "And what I take that to mean is that brigades are not gonna be assumed to be an organization that are focused on, hey.", "start": 2729.7998, "end": 2737.815 }, { "text": "Like, let's get some sort of government partnership that will help provide some sort of service using volunteer labor.", "start": 2737.815, "end": 2745.515 }, { "text": "Instead, the folks would be on partnering with local community groups, maybe nonprofits, folks that are close to where life is being lived and where there are things that need addressed in the community, and then trying to take an empathetic approach as one tries to partner with them and work with them on whatever problem they might want to solve, which then leads to some language that's used a little bit later in the proposal around trying to, like, find those partnerships first before just building technology.", "start": 2745.975, "end": 2775.645 }, { "text": "I think that's a response to in fact, some conversations we've had here on the podcast occasionally where there's this idea that sometimes things get built without really the audience involved, without that human centered element, and then it ends up being kinda tossing a piece of tech over a fence where there isn't anyone to use it.", "start": 2776.1301, "end": 2795.635 } ], "start": 2727.4, "end": 2795.635, "num_words": 202.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it looks like that's in part meant to address that.", "start": 2795.635, "end": 2798.055 }, { "text": "There is work in here, as I mentioned, to kinda put effort into addressing, governance with the organization.", "start": 2798.915, "end": 2805.575 }, { "text": "I don't gather here exactly what that's gonna look like.", "start": 2806.68, "end": 2808.8398 }, { "text": "I think that's a conversation that's still ongoing, so you wanna continue to pay attention to that if you're interested in figuring out how decisions are gonna be made in the future.", "start": 2808.8398, "end": 2818.06 }, { "text": "The proposal also starts to talk a bit about resourcing for that kind of those kind of big aims that we're just talking about for that aim to make it a better experience for brigades to kinda have that foundation of those partnerships.", "start": 2818.8052, "end": 2831.145 } ], "start": 2795.635, "end": 2831.145, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it looks like some of that involves, some full time positions with, Code for America, some stipend positions that are kinda for folks out in the network, as well as some additional kinda fundraising and staffing support that again, I I would urge you to kinda go into the documents, get more of the the specifics.", "start": 2831.81, "end": 2850.905 }, { "text": "But what I get from this is that there is thinking and strategy among, like, what what people resources do brigades need in order to be well supported as they go forward with this new vision of of things to come?", "start": 2851.605, "end": 2866.76 }, { "text": "And with that, then this document also mentions, goals.", "start": 2867.1401, "end": 2870.12 }, { "text": "And what's interesting about these goals is that there's kind of different segments.", "start": 2870.5, "end": 2873.96 }, { "text": "There are some that are around that kinda community volunteer organizing bit, around goals like increasing the number of active volunteers that are involved, increasing the number of healthy brigades.", "start": 2874.365, "end": 2886.4648 } ], "start": 2831.81, "end": 2886.4648, "num_words": 150.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think some numbers that are mentioned here are, like, trying to go from 10,000 active volunteers to 20,000 and trying to get up to 70 healthy brigades that have a core leadership team and, internal governance structure of their own with at least one partnership.", "start": 2886.765, "end": 2902.81 }, { "text": "And my understanding now is that the contents of the proposal has been presented to leadership folks at the Coach for America nonprofit, and that now there's kinda some next steps that will come, At least, again, I'm speaking at kind of the the time of recording this, and that there's still a need to take all of this and develop a a budget, a plan for how to implement the things that were proposed here as well as to figure out then how to communicate about all of this to a very large number of people that are spread over a very large geographic area.", "start": 2903.915, "end": 2939.615 }, { "text": "So I think this is a topic, especially for to keep an eye on, especially if you're someone who's interested in this sort of volunteering.", "start": 2940.3948, "end": 2947.27 }, { "text": "I think it's really interesting to see a kinda grassroots group really try to sit down and wrangle with these core questions of, why are we doing this?", "start": 2948.53, "end": 2959.005 } ], "start": 2886.765, "end": 2959.005, "num_words": 205.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What change are we trying to make?", "start": 2959.545, "end": 2961.645 }, { "text": "And I'll be curious to see where this proposal ends up and how folks will end up reacting to it.", "start": 2962.745, "end": 2969.245 }, { "text": "Before we draw this episode to a close, I do have a quick meta note.", "start": 2969.625, "end": 2973.12 }, { "text": "We're going to be taking part in Code for America's Brigade Congress on Saturday with a live show, where we'll have a panel coming together, talk a bit about why folks volunteer, the realities of working on volunteer projects, and other things in between those topics.", "start": 2973.76, "end": 2990.505 }, { "text": "So if you're interested in checking that out, it will be virtual, and it will be at 12:30PM on Saturday.", "start": 2990.7249, "end": 2997.385 } ], "start": 2959.545, "end": 2997.385, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I will put links in the episode description giving you information on how to register for the 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