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Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. Thank you both for joining us here on civic tech chat. Could Could you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do? Hi. My name is Rohan Bobe. I'm the CEO and cofounder of Nava. I've been with the company since the very beginning, about eight years now, and, do all kinds of things. Happy to talk about them and be with you today. Yeah. Hey. This is Sha Huang. I'm the COO here at Nava and also one of the cofounders. Also, yeah, crossing that crossing that eight year line, and have worn a variety of hats through through the years. But, yeah, excited for this conversation today. For each of you, what would you say is your personal why? You know, that thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do. That's a great question. I for me, the the thing that I come back to, over the longer arc of Nava's work is I deeply believe, that our public institutions need to be built for the digital age. And, this is not only important, it is urgent. Technology is how policy value gets delivered to people, and our government needs to be capable of, shipping value, shipping results, and outcomes effectively, fairly, transparently, quickly. And this needs to be true in the digital age. Many of these institutions were stood up as the country was industrializing after World War two. We are now in a different, era, And I think this work, the the the consequences both for doing this well and the consequences for not getting it right, are my, are are the thing that motivates me. Because, if we can get this right, I think democratic institutions are gonna be, in a much better position through this century and are gonna be able to serve people, with the challenges that are coming, not the challenges we have today, the challenges that are also coming. And if we don't get it right, a lot of the issues we see where trust in public trust in public institutions is low will just continue to erode and be exacerbated, which is not a cost that we can pay as society. So, those, that that is the thing, that really drives me, in my work at Nava. Yeah. Plus one thing, everything Rohan said, that kind of centers the why for me personally around, you know, the kind of historic arc we're in about declining trust in public institutions and what, what the harms are or what the cost is of that, what that costs the public, what that costs underserved populations, what that costs us in terms of our ability to act on the coming challenges, that we're going to face, at a systemic at a systemic level. I think an additional lens, I think I think about their you know, that's been pretty centering through the years and as Nava has grown significantly as an organization is being able to do right by the team that we have brought into these problems, into these spaces. Being able to, you know, we talk a lot at Nava about leverage points, being able to be high leverage, against some of the systemic technical or structural or organizational or policy challenges that our institutions are facing, and being able to have a deme demonstrable progress, being able to make some of the outcomes, inarguable, or make some of the the kind of ways of working, in a more modern or more human centered or more resilient way, make those things, feel, feel, irresistible or inevitable, by, the kind of momentum we've built or the outcomes we've been able to demonstrate along the way. I think those are those are things that really center me these days. I think Rohan and I have joked before that if we weren't doing Nava, that we would be trying to work on these problems anyways, like, that the kind of challenges that our country is facing during this moment in history, that the skills that we have, or the experiences that we have, these are some of the highest leverage things that we could be doing with our time in this particular moment. Your mention of, wanting to work in problem spaces that face this country is perhaps a great segue to get us into some of our main topic conversation. As folks might be aware, you were both involved in the effort to respond to the rollout problems that happened with healthcare.gov. That was a fairly loud moment, for folks, especially those aware of the health care space. I'll throw a piece in the Atlantic in the episode description that is a good read if folks wanna get kinda greater context on some of the story, y'all were involved in. But why did each of you want to jump into that effort? For me, you know, I'll I'll say upfront that although today, we're we're kind of at a point where we can talk about, Nava's history and Nava's aspirations, none of that, at least for me, existed when we came to healthcare.gov to, sort of pitch in. The you know, it was a very simple, decision point for me, which is, you know, the president's signature legislative achievement had been passed in 2010, the ACA. They had spent three years implementing it, and it was failing. And, it was failing very publicly, and I had a set of skills that could contribute to it potentially not failing. And, you know, there was no, at that time, sense of nobody was thinking about starting a company. Nobody was thinking about, you know, the future, how this might be connected to larger structural problems, the patterns of of failures for this type of work. At least I was not thinking about that at all. It was simply, you know, the ask was, can you come help for two to three weeks? And the answer was yes because, this was important, and I thought I could help move it forward. And, you know, that was an interesting experience for me because it it introduced me to a sense of purpose that could be learned as opposed to just, you know, something you're born with or inherited from somewhere else. It's like we as we familiarized ourselves with the type of challenges and problems in the space, we developed that passion. We developed greater understanding of, you know, what is the root cause here, what is the why, and the sources of, some of the problems that lead to something like healthcare.gov. But in terms of original motivation, it was pretty practical. You know, we we saw a big problem. You know? The president and the country needed that help, so you you respond. Yeah. I think when I got the call, it was certainly not something planned or expected. And but it was, you know, a challenge that was very visible. You know, I think all of us who got involved had been seeing it in the news or hearing about it before getting the individual calls that brought us together. I remember at the time when I got my call, I was, I ended up texting with, one of my old bosses, Mike Magerski, who was at that time the CTO of Code for America. And, you know, I was, I think, you know, wondering out loud, you know, is this something is this, basically, like, is this a suicide mission? Is this actually going are we actually going to solve some problems? You know, or is it, you know, for show? Can I actually do this work? You know, what what's kind of needed for this task? And I think Mike I I my memory of this is, like, Mike just let me ramble on, around all the reasons or concerns, not to. And I think his only response was, you know, well, could you make it worse? And, I think that that was enough of a kernel of belief that, you know, that I personally could contribute something to this effort, that got me involved. And I think, like Rohan mentioned, I think, you know, it was not, you know, part of my personal career, you know, five year plan to be working with and for, government services or government programs. But after the experience of healthcare.gov, it was impossible to imagine otherwise. It was impossible to imagine, other work that could be somehow more clarifying or purposeful, or meaningful, to work on in the future. From that situation, you eventually found yourselves in one where you were initially like firefighters as you got into that moment, responding to a crisis. And, I believe this was a phrase y'all used when we were talking about the episode kinda in prep where you talked about going from that to becoming architects, you know, folks that are now building something that's meant to last beyond just a response. Can y'all talk a bit about the experience of going from that mindset over to the architect one? Yeah. That's a great question. I think some of the questions so Mikey Dickerson was one of the other, people involved in the in the tech search effort. One of was one of the first people called in. One of the questions as we were working as a team, you know, kind of fighting many of these fires and trying to make the changes that we were hoping would, be impactful. One of the questions he posed to us was, you know, what what do we need to build here for healthcare.gov so that the next year's open enrollment that, you know, a similar team wasn't just going to need to be called again, that, that the healthcare.gov open and yearly open enrollment periods would just roll from crisis to crisis to crisis to crisis and, you know, whatever we built was just kind of uptaping things, temporarily until, you know, the next surge in traffic or things like that. And that was a useful question for us that framed some of the more systemic things that we needed to do on healthcare.gov, like, building a replacement for healthcare.gov's identity management system, which was causing the majority of the outages rather than just, you know, patching something existing, but actually replacing something wholesale, and and thinking about the things that would get healthcare.gov as a as a whole to a more resilient place. But I think that line of thinking led us to, led us as well to think about what it what it would mean to, to stay, or things like that. And I think Rohan can speak to that more. Something you mentioned there that I'd like to follow-up on a little bit, if you don't mind, is, you mentioned the the the part of the story where you replaced the identity system as opposed to patching it. I think that's one of those situations where at the service level, it may look like it's, say, more risk to replace a component because, you know, more effort, therefore, more risk. But perhaps it's one of those unique situations where it's actually kinda counterintuitive, where there's actually, like, a greater amount of risk in attempting to patch the thing. Can you talk a bit about, you know, how, how did you communicate about that about that choice? And, because often it can be kinda tough to say, convince a stakeholder, go ahead and go with, like, the replacement strategy and and see that it is actually, like, the less riskier option. Yeah. The our our approach at that time was to let the results speak. Meaning, it was, there was a lot already a lot of attention and energy and time and money going into trying to understand where the problems were in the existing system, you know, dealing with them. So that that problem was already being worked, with a lot of attention and resources, etcetera. What we our approach was to say, we think there's a better way, and we're just gonna go ahead and and ship what we think is a better alternative, and let's let's put these things side by side. So over the course of, you know, about approximately six months, depends how you measure it, but about six months with about four to five people, we built a replacement system, that used the same APIs so that other systems that integrated with the the identity management system wouldn't really have to change. They just have to point at different endpoints. And, you know, we wanted to be able to put things side by side such as, load testing results. So if you load test the existing system, you load test a new system, what are the performance metrics? What's the error rate? You know? How does the the system scale to handle different load profiles and and volume of load? So, that that was our approach was to, you know, just be able to put things side by side and to allow decision makers to decide, you know, what was better. And we we had an opinion. We advocated for our opinion. But what was also the case was we weren't gonna advocate for our solution if it wasn't actually better. We were confident that our solution was better. It the results bore that out. But let's say there was a world in which, you know, we didn't develop something better. We wouldn't have tried to tried to push it. But given that we ended up being correct and the results bore that out, you know, we were able to take that to decision makers and say, look. Here's here's how we should do it. Here's the plan for actually, you know, cutting over what that would look like. Ultimately, they decided to go with the new system because we could prove using data and testing and demos that it was less risky than the existing system. And we were able to cut over in the in the course of a night, migrate all the production data without the loss of a single record, etcetera. So, that was that was our approach. Keeping in the theme of making choices, toward the the end of this process, I gather you've formed a company, one we've talked about, a few times here. I'd be curious to hear a bit about the why for that. You know, why take that step? Were there other options that y'all were considering at the time? Backing up to the context, at that time. So at the time when we as folks that started Nava, we were about eighteen months into our journey of shipping products on healthcare.gov, that made the experience better, that made the site more reliable. And at that time, you know, the community we were in was was pretty small, the digital services community. USCS maybe had about, I think, around five folks or so. Eighteen f had about 10 folks or so. We were around six folks. So it's pretty small, you know, set of people at that time. And what we saw was, we saw momentum within the government on their being, advocating for a better way to structure, manage, run technology projects. Folks like Mikey Dickerson, the founding team at USCS, the folks at eighteen f, they they got it, and they were kind of running with what needed to change on the government side. What we saw as a unique contribution that we could make is, first of all, we as a team have a track record. We have eighteen months of experience shipping high quality products in a government context, where we had to advocate you know, half of our work was advocating for our way of working, which is uncomfortable if you've never worked that way before. Right? Not being able to say, here's what we're gonna ship six months from now. So, what we sort of if we had conversations as a team to sit down and say, hey. What's the future here? We all clearly had a passion. We all sort of were bit by that purpose bug, and, became kind of hooked on, you know, the just the idea that our skills could be applied to work that was far more meaningful than building, you know, ad products in Silicon Valley, frankly. And the, the decision to start a company really was came from the idea that, if the government efforts that were ongoing at that time were successful, they would need to work with, vendors who could work with them in good faith, who had the skills and the quality, and who could be trusted not to, sort of just treat it like a stream of revenue, but to actually, you know, do what was right for users, do what was right for the work, steward the agency's responsibility. We saw that being a, a sort of critical function that had to exist, but that didn't exist. When we looked around, nobody else was playing that role. So we thought, you know, we are positioned we we have a track record of working together. We like working together. Let's fill that that void that is gonna be necessary, but is, you know, nobody's orienting to that today. And then we can pair with the people on the government side to, you know, ultimately drive the outcomes that that we cared about. The organization is also unique in that it's a public benefit corporation. Can you all talk a bit about what that is for folks that might not be as familiar and why you made the choice to use that structure? Yeah. That's a great question. We're yeah. So we're a public benefit corporation, and we made that choice as we were talking about founding Nava because, the public benefit corporation designation was relatively new at that time in 2014, 2015. What it meant was and, you know, the intention of the PBC designation was that you could have a corporation that had a social charter or a public benefit mission that was baked into, its governance structure, that was baked into, the kind of duties, of the shareholders. So instead of just, you know, a for profit corporation that has a fiduciary duty to kind of return value to shareholders, that incorporating as a public benefit corporation would mean that we also had this parallel responsibility, baked in at the deepest level of the organization to deliver on our mission, to help serve the government and and build these more resilient public institutions. It was a it it was a harder it was a, I I think, a strange decision for us to make at the time there. You know, our lawyers didn't know what a public benefit corporation was. It's still you know, there are not many PBCs. But we felt like it was, you know, the government providing a designation that aligned with our values. And if we were building an organization to work with government agencies and be active stewards of their, missions and their desired outcomes, it would feel somehow contradictory to then ignore this corporate designation that was created to to be in line with some of the same values that we shared. So we felt like that was a way to make, you know, our our mission or our values baked into something deeper than just, you know, a Google Doc, but actually bake that into the structure of the corporation. To follow-up on that last statement about having the values be more than just a Google Doc, I I think I recall from our kind of prep conversation that one of y'all meant used the phrase, like, we wanted our values to have teeth, which I think kinda uniquely applies to this sort of structure. How does a public benefit corporation, do that with with a set of values in an organization like yours? Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. We we did want our values to have teeth, and the public benefit corporation designation, I think, allowed us to do so. To the other point, I think Rohan mentioned around the kind of vendor ecosystem, we did see some of the dark incentives or negative incentives of the ecosystem pulling you towards, you know, prioritizing, maximizing revenue, or bidding on anything at all costs, under delivering for the government, or or kind of, not holding to some promises or commitments, or not aligning with the the vision or mission of the agencies you were serving. So we saw that as a real risk. And I think in terms of having teeth, what being a PBC means is that, you know, even if and I I use this as an example. You know, Nava has no outside investors. The only shareholders of Nava are current or former employees. So even if everyone at Nava were to resign today and a fully new set of new CEO, new executive team, new anything like that, if we as past sharehold as kind of existing shareholders, but not even current staff, saw Nava straying away from its stated public benefit mission or stated kind of social charter baked into, its incorporation, then we could, then we could litigate. We could kind of bring a suit to Nava about failing to deliver on its, on its mission in the same ways that, activist shareholders in public companies, you know, litigate corporations for failing to maximize, you know, revenue to to their shareholders. And we felt like that, you know, that allowed us to make, some of these commitments, not just in good faith, but with some with some backup, that even if, you know, if everything at Nava changed hands, there were still some mechanisms for accountability, for this organization long term. I'll add to that a little bit that, in addition to the accountability piece like Shah talked about, it's also the case that because these, you know, we have this dual commitment, at the deepest level to, to the mission and and to shareholders that, the executive team is protected and able to make decisions in the public benefit that harm shareholders. That cannot be done in, it it in a traditional company, you know, the the mandate is to maximize shareholder value, do not damage shareholder value, and shareholders can accuse, you know, the executive team, the board of, making decisions that have harmed their interest, and it is in their they're fiduciaries. They have to, you know, steward the shareholders' interest. We We have a dual man mandate, and, there are situations in which when there is a hard, you know, zero sum trade off between those two, we we are legally allowed to, pursue the mission at the expense of shareholder value. Now, obviously, it's like we're not seeking out those situations, but when push comes to shove, you know, there's some teeth there legally speaking. Listeners might recall that in June, we had the privilege of getting to chat with, someone named Mark Funkhouser to talk a bit about the impact, the pandemic has had on local government. And as it turned out, there's been a fair share of problems to solve and crises to respond to at those levels. I'll, toss an episode link in the description for folks that wanna dive into that context and come back. As an organization that's focused its energy on that space, how's the pandemic affected the work you've been doing with those government partners? I think part of our motivation to even operate, at at at this level and work across multiple levels of government. We got our start in federal. Most of the company is sort of in our peer space purely operate federally. One of the reasons why we made a conscious decision before the pandemic to support government at at different levels is, there are critical programs, mission critical programs that are run by state and local governments. You know, even if you're looking at US safety net programs, approximately half of programs that are sort of part of the, US safety net are administered by states. So it's a critical part of what affects people, which is what we sort of center around when we decide, you know, where where do we wanna work. Obviously, the the pandemic happened. There were, you know, I I think it is it's telling that at exactly the moment in 2020 when unemployment in the country was at its highest rate since, World War two, that you had the virtual, simultaneous failing of about 54 unemployment insurance systems. These systems have had billions of dollars and decades of investment to, to put them in they should have been in a position where, you know, they were ready to meet the moment. They were not. So I think the, that is if you just take a big step back, you know, part of our motivation for go where the impact is, it's natural for us to want to be involved here. In terms of patterns we're we're seeing, you know, some it it's been an interesting learning experience for us to sort of compare and contrast our work at the federal level and our work at the state level. Some things are, some things are shared. For example, you see common common challenges such as, you know, how do you organize a complex technology project that's not fundamentally different, between different levels of government. But then there are interesting, you know, differences that, you know, we've been kind of pleasantly surprised to learn about. You know? For example, with our work in Vermont, it's been interesting to see how much closer the civil servants feel to the communities they serve. You know, everybody that works for, say, government in Vermont is a Vermonter. It's a it's a relatively small state. When we're talking about things like user research and understanding, you know, the pain the pain points, mentally, it's, you know, there's a much closer feeling for for a Vermont civil servant, I think, to their user base than, for example, you run a a extremely large federal program that serves everybody. That's important too in a different way, of course. But, that's been, you know, an interesting sort of learning point for us as we think about our work at at multiple levels. Yeah. Shah, do you wanna chime in? I'll I'll think a little bit about some good examples there. Yeah. I think the a different thing to think about, and I think, Rohan, you touched on it as well with the unemployment surge is I think the the pandemic has disrupted the the entire country in so many different ways. But it's also just revealed so many cracks and seams in our safety net that were already there, that were there for decades, that I think anyone who's been on SNAP or Medicaid, or TANF or WIC could have told you about were were true of their experiences of the program, even prior to a pandemic. So I think what has been, I think, I think there's that, that saying, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste. I think there's a much broader and more visceral, sense of understanding of the cost of failure, the cost of not making some of these systemic changes, the cost of not thinking about business process and, you know, just focusing on technology, or the cost of, focusing on business process, without thinking about policy. I think those those things have been borne out in in pretty staggering ways. And I think that's been that point has been hammered home pretty well. I think also the point around resilience has become, closer to a lot of the agencies we speak to, as not a hypothetical resilience they need to build, but a real and pragmatic one, that they need to build to be able to respond to the the kind of current crises, and and the coming challenges that our public institutions are gonna face. Something that I I imagine both of you are well aware of working in this space is that at that point where you're delivering a service, particularly using technology as needed, that's very much a point where kinda like policy systems meet computer systems. And there's kind of problems that can be created by the implementation of both and also, like, the relationships they have with each other. How as you've been doing this work in in these in in these benefit systems, how have you seen your role as as a partner where those things meet? Yeah. That's a excellent question. You know, I think one of the ways in which we've grown is to understand, you know, I think anybody who has experience in this space comes to understand that, these are not technology problems. The technology itself is capable of meeting people's needs. You know, we're not inventing anything in in the course of our work. We do have to be creative and solve lots of problems, but they're not, you know, technology r and d problems. They are they are oftentimes complex issues at the intersection of multiple domains. And, to, I I think, to the to the question you asked, you know, a lot of times we find, for example, business process to be intimately wrapped up with the way a particular technology might enable, you know, a workflow, let's say. And or to take other examples, you mentioned policy, the intersection of technology and policy. Or to take another example, the intersection of technology and, talent or labor, meaning, you know, the supply of of people within the agency or outside the agency who can actually, you know, make a decision, or, you know, process a a particular, claim or or, sort of request that comes in. So, usually, you know, we I I think the the first thing we do, and that we're quite good at is that we we try to widen the aperture as much as possible. So not starting from a place of, like, you know, how do we, you know, get this type of technology, you know, injected here? We are pretty agnostic to technology and to techniques and tools. We start with the outcomes, and we typically work backwards to say, okay. Well, what's, you know, what's the ideal solution, not just from a technology perspective, but if we're setting this agency up for long term success to serve its users, how would we do that? What would the ideal look like? What's stopping us from making that happen? And then we go through a process, to try to, you know, block and tackle those issues, to create buy in, to to ask for feedback from the agency. There's oftentimes, subject many subject matter experts within the agency that know the intricacies of policy operations, the way that things actually work that has to be factored into our plan. So we're iterating that that plan sort of long before code is is getting shipped is the architecture of that approach has to be sound, and there has to be, you know, you can never impose a solution. You have to, you know, cocreate. You have to, I I think USDS has a value that's built with, not for. This is exactly the right way to not only build capacity, within the agency, but to also make it more likely that any solutions you develop can be operationalized well, and that can be maintained over the long term because it's the agency that holds that responsibility over the long term. So, that's that's typically how we approach these complex problems that can often live at the intersection of, yes, technology and policy, but also operations, you know, talent and labor, funding, regulations, all sorts of other, things that contribute to, the complexity of these environments. A a common thread in the conversation we've had so far is thought behind how one makes choices. So something I'd be curious to to hear from y'all is how have the collective experiences you've had so far, some of them we've talked about here in this conversation, fed into the way that y'all make decisions for and as an organization? Yeah. I think that, you know, it's on there there's two sides of that of how we make decisions. It's like how we make decisions in building the organization and how do we structure it and set us up for success to deliver on our mission, or make progress on it. And then on the other side, it's how do we continue to, be active stewards, and play the role that, we feel is necessary to exist on the vendor side to help government agencies, you know, continue to serve their, their publics. On the organization building side, I think, you know, one one choice that I think Rohan and I were reminded of recently was a choice to actually not build something, that we, decided to make at Nava several years ago. You know, that identity management system that Rohan mentioned earlier that we, built to replace the existing identity management system on healthcare.gov. At some point, you know, we also migrated medicare.gov, onto another instance of that same system so that, you know, that was serving, almost almost 70,000,000, user accounts across healthcare.gov and medicare.gov. At the time, you know, login.gov had just gotten started. It was a small small effort out of '18 f, and there weren't, weren't as many kind of off the shelf products or products serving that space. Id.me had just started. There was a conversation we had at the time of whether or not Nava should build a product for, you know, a SaaS product around identity management and resell it back to the government. And it was a it was a strange kind of decision to to sit with, and I think, you know, there were many potential financial upsides of a decision like that to Rohan's point earlier about, you know, fiduciary responsibilities. But I think when we played that decision out, we felt like this was, I think, around 2016 or 2017 probably. When we played that decision out, we felt like if we built a SaaS product around identity management or identity proofing, sold it to government, we might be able to, earn a ton earn a ton in terms of profit. We might be able to, solve a specific problem that the government was experiencing at the moment. But over the long term, I think Rohan, you know, said to said to us, you know, after thinking about it for a while, he said, you know, over the long term, our interests and the government's interests would diverge. Over the long term, at some point, you know, we would want to maximize lock in to our product for the agencies that we had as customers. We would want to monetize the user data that we were accumulating on behalf of the government and reselling back to the government. And over the long term, our interest in building a kind of SaaS product along those lines and and kind of privatizing this piece, of government data would would not align with the interests of the public. So we decided not to build that. We decided not to go down that direction. I think we could do that because we were a public benefit corporation. I think that made the answer easy, rather than, you know, a conflicted one. And it's been, I think, pretty sobering, actually, to see some of the recent conversation around ID. Me and and IRS announcing that they're moving away from it because, you know, in many ways, it's played out almost exactly like we were afraid it would have if we had gone down a similar path. So I think that's that's a kind of choice in the negative. It's not something we chose to build. It's not something we chose to do with the organization. It's something we made a decision not to do several years ago. But I think that's been telling over the last few months, watching some of the concern, and risks raised and conflicts of interest be raised, that I think have been that have helped us reflect on how we made that decision then and, you know, what factors we were taking in, and how that has kind of played out in ways that, that we were concerned might play out for Nava. That's on one side. I think in terms of, you know, choices we've made that have impacted, you know, our ability to make progress on the mission, something that has we have learned and I think have made a choice around is beginning to we started over the last couple years hiring people with some of the policy and program experience, or, you know, with more policy or program experience, on the actual programs that we're working with. And I think that doesn't you know, Nava is not, you know, a policy think tank. Nava is not, you know, trying to kind of direct that level of work or participate in that level of work. But recognizing that, you know, to Rohan's earlier point, like, so many of the, visible technology problems, what is underneath those or the root causes of those are business process challenges, our lack of clarity and regulations, our contradicting regulations, or legislative or policy, challenges. I think having that experience on our side and partnering with the agencies that we're working for has helped us build a better translation layer so that we're able to meet with, you know, policy and operations folks on the government side, deeply, deeply understand their needs and not just bring a technology first mindset into those settings, and then figure out, you know, as Rohan has talked about, working backwards from the policy goals or the program goals. You know, is technology even the way we should solve this, or are there simple business process changes, that could make sense here? So I I think using using kind of technology, not as, as a hammer and thinking of everything as nails. I think that's been, I think, something on, making choices in how we've structured and what type of talent we've brought into the organization that I think has helped us better serve our our mission. A term that's been used, quite a few times in in our conversation is the term outcomes as, in particular, something that you wanna focus on. In my experience, it can be easy to, like, lose track of those or get lost in the noise of all the other stuff that's involved with whether we're talking about a project or the way our organization's running, and it can kinda get wedged into the decision making systems that are there. How have you all gone about maintaining focus on that outcome, in quotes that that we've been talking about in the face of all of that? Yeah. That's a that's a great question, and I I think that's true that the comp as you get as you grapple with the complexity of these environments and and of the execution of this work that you can sort of lose the forest for the trees if if you're not, intentional about maintaining a through line to why you're there. For us, I think it starts with how we define success. So as a public benefit corporation, we're, like any other company looking to run a healthy business. But in addition to that, we part of our definition of success, and this is something that I explained to all as we onboard new folks to the company, I explained to, to all our folks who join is that, part of our definition of success is advancing our opinion of structural change. And we have a systems based view into what structural change means. This is a this is a framework that we've developed based on our experience. It's pretty simple. It says that we we transform service experiences to be, fast, accessible, and simple. We transform program outcomes to be effective for their beneficiary population, and we transform agency technology and operational postures to be adaptable in a world that is only changing more and more rapidly. So all of our work contributes to at least one of these layers of structural change. So, when we when we look at how the company makes decisions, how we hire, what our culture is, what we, you know, when you look at all of the things that we call back to regularly as a company, as project teams. We we are sort of constantly maintaining that through line to the the outcomes that we are here to drive. And that has to exist at a corporate level in addition to, you know, at a team level because to your original point, teams can get so close to their problems that you start to operate locally. And, there's nothing, you know, that that that can be fine, but it can also be easy to sort of lose that through line to to what matters. But at the company level, across the projects we've done, that we have today, and that we, you know, will work on in the future, that theory of change, that idea, that opinion about what structural structural change looks like, what it means, how our work and business decisions ultimately ladder to advancing that theory of change, that keeps us centered on a framework that is above the level of any specific initiative that we might be driving. So you know? And and then, yes, our our mission is aligned to with that. Our values are aligned with that. Our culture is aligned with that. What we, you know, celebrate internally as a company, what we spotlight is is, ladders up to that. The way we hire ladders up to that. So, it's a framework that, keeps the important things, the outcomes front and center, and then, we work backwards from that. And we as a team try to be a learning organization and understand how do we get there. And that's, you know, the work that that we're all engaged in. I wanna thank you both for taking the time to come on Civic Tech Chat today. I have no doubt that folks listening are gonna find some nuggets to learn from this conversation. Again, thank you both for coming on. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. 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I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Either that, or maybe I'll rant about a topic for a while.\n\nBefore we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech.\n\nAnyway, let's go ahead and start the show. Thank you both for joining us here on civic tech chat. Could Could you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: Hi. My name is Rohan Bobe. I'm the CEO and cofounder of Nava. I've been with the company since the very beginning, about eight years now, and, do all kinds of things. Happy to talk about them and be with you today.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Hey. This is Sha Huang. I'm the COO here at Nava and also one of the cofounders. Also, yeah, crossing that crossing that eight year line, and have worn a variety of hats through through the years.\n\nBut, yeah, excited for this conversation today.\n\nSpeaker 0: For each of you, what would you say is your personal why? You know, that thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do.\n\nSpeaker 1: That's a great question. I for me, the the thing that I come back to, over the longer arc of Nava's work is I deeply believe, that our public institutions need to be built for the digital age. And, this is not only important, it is urgent. Technology is how policy value gets delivered to people, and our government needs to be capable of, shipping value, shipping results, and outcomes effectively, fairly, transparently, quickly. And this needs to be true in the digital age.\n\nMany of these institutions were stood up as the country was industrializing after World War two. We are now in a different, era, And I think this work, the the the consequences both for doing this well and the consequences for not getting it right, are my, are are the thing that motivates me. Because, if we can get this right, I think democratic institutions are gonna be, in a much better position through this century and are gonna be able to serve people, with the challenges that are coming, not the challenges we have today, the challenges that are also coming. And if we don't get it right, a lot of the issues we see where trust in public trust in public institutions is low will just continue to erode and be exacerbated, which is not a cost that we can pay as society. So, those, that that is the thing, that really drives me, in my work at Nava.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Plus one thing, everything Rohan said, that kind of centers the why for me personally around, you know, the kind of historic arc we're in about declining trust in public institutions and what, what the harms are or what the cost is of that, what that costs the public, what that costs underserved populations, what that costs us in terms of our ability to act on the coming challenges, that we're going to face, at a systemic at a systemic level. I think an additional lens, I think I think about their you know, that's been pretty centering through the years and as Nava has grown significantly as an organization is being able to do right by the team that we have brought into these problems, into these spaces. Being able to, you know, we talk a lot at Nava about leverage points, being able to be high leverage, against some of the systemic technical or structural or organizational or policy challenges that our institutions are facing, and being able to have a deme demonstrable progress, being able to make some of the outcomes, inarguable, or make some of the the kind of ways of working, in a more modern or more human centered or more resilient way, make those things, feel, feel, irresistible or inevitable, by, the kind of momentum we've built or the outcomes we've been able to demonstrate along the way.\n\nI think those are those are things that really center me these days. I think Rohan and I have joked before that if we weren't doing Nava, that we would be trying to work on these problems anyways, like, that the kind of challenges that our country is facing during this moment in history, that the skills that we have, or the experiences that we have, these are some of the highest leverage things that we could be doing with our time in this particular moment.\n\nSpeaker 0: Your mention of, wanting to work in problem spaces that face this country is perhaps a great segue to get us into some of our main topic conversation. As folks might be aware, you were both involved in the effort to respond to the rollout problems that happened with healthcare.gov. That was a fairly loud moment, for folks, especially those aware of the health care space. I'll throw a piece in the Atlantic in the episode description that is a good read if folks wanna get kinda greater context on some of the story, y'all were involved in. But why did each of you want to jump into that effort?\n\nFor\n\nSpeaker 1: me, you know, I'll I'll say upfront that although today, we're we're kind of at a point where we can talk about, Nava's history and Nava's aspirations, none of that, at least for me, existed when we came to healthcare.gov to, sort of pitch in. The you know, it was a very simple, decision point for me, which is, you know, the president's signature legislative achievement had been passed in 2010, the ACA. They had spent three years implementing it, and it was failing. And, it was failing very publicly, and I had a set of skills that could contribute to it potentially not failing. And, you know, there was no, at that time, sense of nobody was thinking about starting a company.\n\nNobody was thinking about, you know, the future, how this might be connected to larger structural problems, the patterns of of failures for this type of work. At least I was not thinking about that at all. It was simply, you know, the ask was, can you come help for two to three weeks? And the answer was yes because, this was important, and I thought I could help move it forward. And, you know, that was an interesting experience for me because it it introduced me to a sense of purpose that could be learned as opposed to just, you know, something you're born with or inherited from somewhere else.\n\nIt's like we as we familiarized ourselves with the type of challenges and problems in the space, we developed that passion. We developed greater understanding of, you know, what is the root cause here, what is the why, and the sources of, some of the problems that lead to something like healthcare.gov. But in terms of original motivation, it was pretty practical. You know, we we saw a big problem. You know?\n\nThe president and the country needed that help, so you you respond.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I think when I got the call, it was certainly not something planned or expected. And but it was, you know, a challenge that was very visible. You know, I think all of us who got involved had been seeing it in the news or hearing about it before getting the individual calls that brought us together. I remember at the time when I got my call, I was, I ended up texting with, one of my old bosses, Mike Magerski, who was at that time the CTO of Code for America.\n\nAnd, you know, I was, I think, you know, wondering out loud, you know, is this something is this, basically, like, is this a suicide mission? Is this actually going are we actually going to solve some problems? You know, or is it, you know, for show? Can I actually do this work? You know, what what's kind of needed for this task?\n\nAnd I think Mike I I my memory of this is, like, Mike just let me ramble on, around all the reasons or concerns, not to. And I think his only response was, you know, well, could you make it worse? And, I think that that was enough of a kernel of belief that, you know, that I personally could contribute something to this effort, that got me involved. And I think, like Rohan mentioned, I think, you know, it was not, you know, part of my personal career, you know, five year plan to be working with and for, government services or government programs. But after the experience of healthcare.gov, it was impossible to imagine otherwise.\n\nIt was impossible to imagine, other work that could be somehow more clarifying or purposeful, or meaningful, to work on in the future.\n\nSpeaker 0: From that situation, you eventually found yourselves in one where you were initially like firefighters as you got into that moment, responding to a crisis. And, I believe this was a phrase y'all used when we were talking about the episode kinda in prep where you talked about going from that to becoming architects, you know, folks that are now building something that's meant to last beyond just a response. Can y'all talk a bit about the experience of going from that mindset over to the architect one?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. That's a great question. I think some of the questions so Mikey Dickerson was one of the other, people involved in the in the tech search effort. One of was one of the first people called in. One of the questions as we were working as a team, you know, kind of fighting many of these fires and trying to make the changes that we were hoping would, be impactful.\n\nOne of the questions he posed to us was, you know, what what do we need to build here for healthcare.gov so that the next year's open enrollment that, you know, a similar team wasn't just going to need to be called again, that, that the healthcare.gov open and yearly open enrollment periods would just roll from crisis to crisis to crisis to crisis and, you know, whatever we built was just kind of uptaping things, temporarily until, you know, the next surge in traffic or things like that. And that was a useful question for us that framed some of the more systemic things that we needed to do on healthcare.gov, like, building a replacement for healthcare.gov's identity management system, which was causing the majority of the outages rather than just, you know, patching something existing, but actually replacing something wholesale, and and thinking about the things that would get healthcare.gov as a as a whole to a more resilient place. But I think that line of thinking led us to, led us as well to think about what it what it would mean to, to stay, or things like that. And I think Rohan can speak to that more.\n\nSpeaker 0: Something you mentioned there that I'd like to follow-up on a little bit, if you don't mind, is, you mentioned the the the part of the story where you replaced the identity system as opposed to patching it. I think that's one of those situations where at the service level, it may look like it's, say, more risk to replace a component because, you know, more effort, therefore, more risk. But perhaps it's one of those unique situations where it's actually kinda counterintuitive, where there's actually, like, a greater amount of risk in attempting to patch the thing. Can you talk a bit about, you know, how, how did you communicate about that about that choice? And, because often it can be kinda tough to say, convince a stakeholder, go ahead and go with, like, the replacement strategy and and see that it is actually, like, the less riskier option.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. The our our approach at that time was to let the results speak. Meaning, it was, there was a lot already a lot of attention and energy and time and money going into trying to understand where the problems were in the existing system, you know, dealing with them. So that that problem was already being worked, with a lot of attention and resources, etcetera. What we our approach was to say, we think there's a better way, and we're just gonna go ahead and and ship what we think is a better alternative, and let's let's put these things side by side.\n\nSo over the course of, you know, about approximately six months, depends how you measure it, but about six months with about four to five people, we built a replacement system, that used the same APIs so that other systems that integrated with the the identity management system wouldn't really have to change. They just have to point at different endpoints. And, you know, we wanted to be able to put things side by side such as, load testing results. So if you load test the existing system, you load test a new system, what are the performance metrics? What's the error rate?\n\nYou know? How does the the system scale to handle different load profiles and and volume of load? So, that that was our approach was to, you know, just be able to put things side by side and to allow decision makers to decide, you know, what was better. And we we had an opinion. We advocated for our opinion.\n\nBut what was also the case was we weren't gonna advocate for our solution if it wasn't actually better. We were confident that our solution was better. It the results bore that out. But let's say there was a world in which, you know, we didn't develop something better. We wouldn't have tried to tried to push it.\n\nBut given that we ended up being correct and the results bore that out, you know, we were able to take that to decision makers and say, look. Here's here's how we should do it. Here's the plan for actually, you know, cutting over what that would look like. Ultimately, they decided to go with the new system because we could prove using data and testing and demos that it was less risky than the existing system. And we were able to cut over in the in the course of a night, migrate all the production data without the loss of a single record, etcetera.\n\nSo, that was that was our approach.\n\nSpeaker 0: Keeping in the theme of making choices, toward the the end of this process, I gather you've formed a company, one we've talked about, a few times here. I'd be curious to hear a bit about the why for that. You know, why take that step? Were there other options that y'all were considering at the time?\n\nSpeaker 1: Backing up to the context, at that time. So at the time when we as folks that started Nava, we were about eighteen months into our journey of shipping products on healthcare.gov, that made the experience better, that made the site more reliable. And at that time, you know, the community we were in was was pretty small, the digital services community. USCS maybe had about, I think, around five folks or so. Eighteen f had about 10 folks or so.\n\nWe were around six folks. So it's pretty small, you know, set of people at that time. And what we saw was, we saw momentum within the government on their being, advocating for a better way to structure, manage, run technology projects. Folks like Mikey Dickerson, the founding team at USCS, the folks at eighteen f, they they got it, and they were kind of running with what needed to change on the government side. What we saw as a unique contribution that we could make is, first of all, we as a team have a track record.\n\nWe have eighteen months of experience shipping high quality products in a government context, where we had to advocate you know, half of our work was advocating for our way of working, which is uncomfortable if you've never worked that way before. Right? Not being able to say, here's what we're gonna ship six months from now. So, what we sort of if we had conversations as a team to sit down and say, hey. What's the future here?\n\nWe all clearly had a passion. We all sort of were bit by that purpose bug, and, became kind of hooked on, you know, the just the idea that our skills could be applied to work that was far more meaningful than building, you know, ad products in Silicon Valley, frankly. And the, the decision to start a company really was came from the idea that, if the government efforts that were ongoing at that time were successful, they would need to work with, vendors who could work with them in good faith, who had the skills and the quality, and who could be trusted not to, sort of just treat it like a stream of revenue, but to actually, you know, do what was right for users, do what was right for the work, steward the agency's responsibility. We saw that being a, a sort of critical function that had to exist, but that didn't exist. When we looked around, nobody else was playing that role.\n\nSo we thought, you know, we are positioned we we have a track record of working together. We like working together. Let's fill that that void that is gonna be necessary, but is, you know, nobody's orienting to that today. And then we can pair with the people on the government side to, you know, ultimately drive the outcomes that that we cared about.\n\nSpeaker 0: The organization is also unique in that it's a public benefit corporation. Can you all talk a bit about what that is for folks that might not be as familiar and why you made the choice to use that structure?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. That's a great question. We're yeah. So we're a public benefit corporation, and we made that choice as we were talking about founding Nava because, the public benefit corporation designation was relatively new at that time in 2014, 2015. What it meant was and, you know, the intention of the PBC designation was that you could have a corporation that had a social charter or a public benefit mission that was baked into, its governance structure, that was baked into, the kind of duties, of the shareholders.\n\nSo instead of just, you know, a for profit corporation that has a fiduciary duty to kind of return value to shareholders, that incorporating as a public benefit corporation would mean that we also had this parallel responsibility, baked in at the deepest level of the organization to deliver on our mission, to help serve the government and and build these more resilient public institutions. It was a it it was a harder it was a, I I think, a strange decision for us to make at the time there. You know, our lawyers didn't know what a public benefit corporation was. It's still you know, there are not many PBCs. But we felt like it was, you know, the government providing a designation that aligned with our values.\n\nAnd if we were building an organization to work with government agencies and be active stewards of their, missions and their desired outcomes, it would feel somehow contradictory to then ignore this corporate designation that was created to to be in line with some of the same values that we shared. So we felt like that was a way to make, you know, our our mission or our values baked into something deeper than just, you know, a Google Doc, but actually bake that into the structure of the corporation.\n\nSpeaker 0: To follow-up on that last statement about having the values be more than just a Google Doc, I I think I recall from our kind of prep conversation that one of y'all meant used the phrase, like, we wanted our values to have teeth, which I think kinda uniquely applies to this sort of structure. How does a public benefit corporation, do that with with a set of values in an organization like yours?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. We we did want our values to have teeth, and the public benefit corporation designation, I think, allowed us to do so. To the other point, I think Rohan mentioned around the kind of vendor ecosystem, we did see some of the dark incentives or negative incentives of the ecosystem pulling you towards, you know, prioritizing, maximizing revenue, or bidding on anything at all costs, under delivering for the government, or or kind of, not holding to some promises or commitments, or not aligning with the the vision or mission of the agencies you were serving.\n\nSo we saw that as a real risk. And I think in terms of having teeth, what being a PBC means is that, you know, even if and I I use this as an example. You know, Nava has no outside investors. The only shareholders of Nava are current or former employees. So even if everyone at Nava were to resign today and a fully new set of new CEO, new executive team, new anything like that, if we as past sharehold as kind of existing shareholders, but not even current staff, saw Nava straying away from its stated public benefit mission or stated kind of social charter baked into, its incorporation, then we could, then we could litigate.\n\nWe could kind of bring a suit to Nava about failing to deliver on its, on its mission in the same ways that, activist shareholders in public companies, you know, litigate corporations for failing to maximize, you know, revenue to to their shareholders. And we felt like that, you know, that allowed us to make, some of these commitments, not just in good faith, but with some with some backup, that even if, you know, if everything at Nava changed hands, there were still some mechanisms for accountability, for this organization long term.\n\nSpeaker 1: I'll add to that a little bit that, in addition to the accountability piece like Shah talked about, it's also the case that because these, you know, we have this dual commitment, at the deepest level to, to the mission and and to shareholders that, the executive team is protected and able to make decisions in the public benefit that harm shareholders. That cannot be done in, it it in a traditional company, you know, the the mandate is to maximize shareholder value, do not damage shareholder value, and shareholders can accuse, you know, the executive team, the board of, making decisions that have harmed their interest, and it is in their they're fiduciaries. They have to, you know, steward the shareholders' interest. We We have a dual man mandate, and, there are situations in which when there is a hard, you know, zero sum trade off between those two, we we are legally allowed to, pursue the mission at the expense of shareholder value. Now, obviously, it's like we're not seeking out those situations, but when push comes to shove, you know, there's some teeth there legally speaking.\n\nSpeaker 0: Listeners might recall that in June, we had the privilege of getting to chat with, someone named Mark Funkhouser to talk a bit about the impact, the pandemic has had on local government. And as it turned out, there's been a fair share of problems to solve and crises to respond to at those levels. I'll, toss an episode link in the description for folks that wanna dive into that context and come back. As an organization that's focused its energy on that space, how's the pandemic affected the work you've been doing with those government partners?\n\nSpeaker 1: I think part of our motivation to even operate, at at at this level and work across multiple levels of government. We got our start in federal. Most of the company is sort of in our peer space purely operate federally. One of the reasons why we made a conscious decision before the pandemic to support government at at different levels is, there are critical programs, mission critical programs that are run by state and local governments. You know, even if you're looking at US safety net programs, approximately half of programs that are sort of part of the, US safety net are administered by states.\n\nSo it's a critical part of what affects people, which is what we sort of center around when we decide, you know, where where do we wanna work. Obviously, the the pandemic happened. There were, you know, I I think it is it's telling that at exactly the moment in 2020 when unemployment in the country was at its highest rate since, World War two, that you had the virtual, simultaneous failing of about 54 unemployment insurance systems. These systems have had billions of dollars and decades of investment to, to put them in they should have been in a position where, you know, they were ready to meet the moment. They were not.\n\nSo I think the, that is if you just take a big step back, you know, part of our motivation for go where the impact is, it's natural for us to want to be involved here. In terms of patterns we're we're seeing, you know, some it it's been an interesting learning experience for us to sort of compare and contrast our work at the federal level and our work at the state level. Some things are, some things are shared. For example, you see common common challenges such as, you know, how do you organize a complex technology project that's not fundamentally different, between different levels of government. But then there are interesting, you know, differences that, you know, we've been kind of pleasantly surprised to learn about.\n\nYou know? For example, with our work in Vermont, it's been interesting to see how much closer the civil servants feel to the communities they serve. You know, everybody that works for, say, government in Vermont is a Vermonter. It's a it's a relatively small state. When we're talking about things like user research and understanding, you know, the pain the pain points, mentally, it's, you know, there's a much closer feeling for for a Vermont civil servant, I think, to their user base than, for example, you run a a extremely large federal program that serves everybody.\n\nThat's important too in a different way, of course. But, that's been, you know, an interesting sort of learning point for us as we think about our work at at multiple levels. Yeah. Shah, do you wanna chime in? I'll I'll think a little bit about some good examples there.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I think the a different thing to think about, and I think, Rohan, you touched on it as well with the unemployment surge is I think the the pandemic has disrupted the the entire country in so many different ways. But it's also just revealed so many cracks and seams in our safety net that were already there, that were there for decades, that I think anyone who's been on SNAP or Medicaid, or TANF or WIC could have told you about were were true of their experiences of the program, even prior to a pandemic. So I think what has been, I think, I think there's that, that saying, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste. I think there's a much broader and more visceral, sense of understanding of the cost of failure, the cost of not making some of these systemic changes, the cost of not thinking about business process and, you know, just focusing on technology, or the cost of, focusing on business process, without thinking about policy.\n\nI think those those things have been borne out in in pretty staggering ways. And I think that's been that point has been hammered home pretty well. I think also the point around resilience has become, closer to a lot of the agencies we speak to, as not a hypothetical resilience they need to build, but a real and pragmatic one, that they need to build to be able to respond to the the kind of current crises, and and the coming challenges that our public institutions are gonna face.\n\nSpeaker 0: Something that I I imagine both of you are well aware of working in this space is that at that point where you're delivering a service, particularly using technology as needed, that's very much a point where kinda like policy systems meet computer systems. And there's kind of problems that can be created by the implementation of both and also, like, the relationships they have with each other. How as you've been doing this work in in these in in these benefit systems, how have you seen your role as as a partner where those things meet?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. That's a excellent question. You know, I think one of the ways in which we've grown is to understand, you know, I think anybody who has experience in this space comes to understand that, these are not technology problems. The technology itself is capable of meeting people's needs. You know, we're not inventing anything in in the course of our work.\n\nWe do have to be creative and solve lots of problems, but they're not, you know, technology r and d problems. They are they are oftentimes complex issues at the intersection of multiple domains. And, to, I I think, to the to the question you asked, you know, a lot of times we find, for example, business process to be intimately wrapped up with the way a particular technology might enable, you know, a workflow, let's say. And or to take other examples, you mentioned policy, the intersection of technology and policy. Or to take another example, the intersection of technology and, talent or labor, meaning, you know, the supply of of people within the agency or outside the agency who can actually, you know, make a decision, or, you know, process a a particular, claim or or, sort of request that comes in.\n\nSo, usually, you know, we I I think the the first thing we do, and that we're quite good at is that we we try to widen the aperture as much as possible. So not starting from a place of, like, you know, how do we, you know, get this type of technology, you know, injected here? We are pretty agnostic to technology and to techniques and tools. We start with the outcomes, and we typically work backwards to say, okay. Well, what's, you know, what's the ideal solution, not just from a technology perspective, but if we're setting this agency up for long term success to serve its users, how would we do that?\n\nWhat would the ideal look like? What's stopping us from making that happen? And then we go through a process, to try to, you know, block and tackle those issues, to create buy in, to to ask for feedback from the agency. There's oftentimes, subject many subject matter experts within the agency that know the intricacies of policy operations, the way that things actually work that has to be factored into our plan. So we're iterating that that plan sort of long before code is is getting shipped is the architecture of that approach has to be sound, and there has to be, you know, you can never impose a solution.\n\nYou have to, you know, cocreate. You have to, I I think USDS has a value that's built with, not for. This is exactly the right way to not only build capacity, within the agency, but to also make it more likely that any solutions you develop can be operationalized well, and that can be maintained over the long term because it's the agency that holds that responsibility over the long term. So, that's that's typically how we approach these complex problems that can often live at the intersection of, yes, technology and policy, but also operations, you know, talent and labor, funding, regulations, all sorts of other, things that contribute to, the complexity of these environments.\n\nSpeaker 0: A a common thread in the conversation we've had so far is thought behind how one makes choices. So something I'd be curious to to hear from y'all is how have the collective experiences you've had so far, some of them we've talked about here in this conversation, fed into the way that y'all make decisions for and as an organization?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I think that, you know, it's on there there's two sides of that of how we make decisions. It's like how we make decisions in building the organization and how do we structure it and set us up for success to deliver on our mission, or make progress on it. And then on the other side, it's how do we continue to, be active stewards, and play the role that, we feel is necessary to exist on the vendor side to help government agencies, you know, continue to serve their, their publics. On the organization building side, I think, you know, one one choice that I think Rohan and I were reminded of recently was a choice to actually not build something, that we, decided to make at Nava several years ago.\n\nYou know, that identity management system that Rohan mentioned earlier that we, built to replace the existing identity management system on healthcare.gov. At some point, you know, we also migrated medicare.gov, onto another instance of that same system so that, you know, that was serving, almost almost 70,000,000, user accounts across healthcare.gov and medicare.gov. At the time, you know, login.gov had just gotten started. It was a small small effort out of '18 f, and there weren't, weren't as many kind of off the shelf products or products serving that space. Id.me had just started.\n\nThere was a conversation we had at the time of whether or not Nava should build a product for, you know, a SaaS product around identity management and resell it back to the government. And it was a it was a strange kind of decision to to sit with, and I think, you know, there were many potential financial upsides of a decision like that to Rohan's point earlier about, you know, fiduciary responsibilities. But I think when we played that decision out, we felt like this was, I think, around 2016 or 2017 probably. When we played that decision out, we felt like if we built a SaaS product around identity management or identity proofing, sold it to government, we might be able to, earn a ton earn a ton in terms of profit. We might be able to, solve a specific problem that the government was experiencing at the moment.\n\nBut over the long term, I think Rohan, you know, said to said to us, you know, after thinking about it for a while, he said, you know, over the long term, our interests and the government's interests would diverge. Over the long term, at some point, you know, we would want to maximize lock in to our product for the agencies that we had as customers. We would want to monetize the user data that we were accumulating on behalf of the government and reselling back to the government. And over the long term, our interest in building a kind of SaaS product along those lines and and kind of privatizing this piece, of government data would would not align with the interests of the public. So we decided not to build that.\n\nWe decided not to go down that direction. I think we could do that because we were a public benefit corporation. I think that made the answer easy, rather than, you know, a conflicted one. And it's been, I think, pretty sobering, actually, to see some of the recent conversation around ID. Me and and IRS announcing that they're moving away from it because, you know, in many ways, it's played out almost exactly like we were afraid it would have if we had gone down a similar path.\n\nSo I think that's that's a kind of choice in the negative. It's not something we chose to build. It's not something we chose to do with the organization. It's something we made a decision not to do several years ago. But I think that's been telling over the last few months, watching some of the concern, and risks raised and conflicts of interest be raised, that I think have been that have helped us reflect on how we made that decision then and, you know, what factors we were taking in, and how that has kind of played out in ways that, that we were concerned might play out for Nava.\n\nThat's on one side. I think in terms of, you know, choices we've made that have impacted, you know, our ability to make progress on the mission, something that has we have learned and I think have made a choice around is beginning to we started over the last couple years hiring people with some of the policy and program experience, or, you know, with more policy or program experience, on the actual programs that we're working with. And I think that doesn't you know, Nava is not, you know, a policy think tank. Nava is not, you know, trying to kind of direct that level of work or participate in that level of work. But recognizing that, you know, to Rohan's earlier point, like, so many of the, visible technology problems, what is underneath those or the root causes of those are business process challenges, our lack of clarity and regulations, our contradicting regulations, or legislative or policy, challenges.\n\nI think having that experience on our side and partnering with the agencies that we're working for has helped us build a better translation layer so that we're able to meet with, you know, policy and operations folks on the government side, deeply, deeply understand their needs and not just bring a technology first mindset into those settings, and then figure out, you know, as Rohan has talked about, working backwards from the policy goals or the program goals. You know, is technology even the way we should solve this, or are there simple business process changes, that could make sense here? So I I think using using kind of technology, not as, as a hammer and thinking of everything as nails. I think that's been, I think, something on, making choices in how we've structured and what type of talent we've brought into the organization that I think has helped us better serve our our mission.\n\nSpeaker 0: A term that's been used, quite a few times in in our conversation is the term outcomes as, in particular, something that you wanna focus on. In my experience, it can be easy to, like, lose track of those or get lost in the noise of all the other stuff that's involved with whether we're talking about a project or the way our organization's running, and it can kinda get wedged into the decision making systems that are there. How have you all gone about maintaining focus on that outcome, in quotes that that we've been talking about in the face of all of that?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. That's a that's a great question, and I I think that's true that the comp as you get as you grapple with the complexity of these environments and and of the execution of this work that you can sort of lose the forest for the trees if if you're not, intentional about maintaining a through line to why you're there. For us, I think it starts with how we define success. So as a public benefit corporation, we're, like any other company looking to run a healthy business. But in addition to that, we part of our definition of success, and this is something that I explained to all as we onboard new folks to the company, I explained to, to all our folks who join is that, part of our definition of success is advancing our opinion of structural change.\n\nAnd we have a systems based view into what structural change means. This is a this is a framework that we've developed based on our experience. It's pretty simple. It says that we we transform service experiences to be, fast, accessible, and simple. We transform program outcomes to be effective for their beneficiary population, and we transform agency technology and operational postures to be adaptable in a world that is only changing more and more rapidly.\n\nSo all of our work contributes to at least one of these layers of structural change. So, when we when we look at how the company makes decisions, how we hire, what our culture is, what we, you know, when you look at all of the things that we call back to regularly as a company, as project teams. We we are sort of constantly maintaining that through line to the the outcomes that we are here to drive. And that has to exist at a corporate level in addition to, you know, at a team level because to your original point, teams can get so close to their problems that you start to operate locally. And, there's nothing, you know, that that that can be fine, but it can also be easy to sort of lose that through line to to what matters.\n\nBut at the company level, across the projects we've done, that we have today, and that we, you know, will work on in the future, that theory of change, that idea, that opinion about what structural structural change looks like, what it means, how our work and business decisions ultimately ladder to advancing that theory of change, that keeps us centered on a framework that is above the level of any specific initiative that we might be driving. So you know? And and then, yes, our our mission is aligned to with that. Our values are aligned with that. Our culture is aligned with that.\n\nWhat we, you know, celebrate internally as a company, what we spotlight is is, ladders up to that. The way we hire ladders up to that. So, it's a framework that, keeps the important things, the outcomes front and center, and then, we work backwards from that. And we as a team try to be a learning organization and understand how do we get there. And that's, you know, the work that that we're all engaged in.\n\nSpeaker 0: I wanna thank you both for taking the time to come on Civic Tech Chat today. I have no doubt that folks listening are gonna find some nuggets to learn from this conversation. Again, thank you both for coming on.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thanks for having us.\n\nSpeaker 2: Thank you so much for having us.\n\nSpeaker 0: You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.24, "end": 0.74 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us.", "start": 0.88, "end": 9.62 }, { "text": "The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society.", "start": 9.84, "end": 16.605 }, { "text": "We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more.", "start": 17.305, "end": 21.244999 }, { "text": "Either that, or maybe I'll rant about a topic for a while.", "start": 21.785, "end": 24.925 } ], "start": 0.24, "end": 24.925, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.", "start": 25.224998, "end": 30.57 }, { "text": "There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description.", "start": 31.029999, "end": 34.57 }, { "text": "Do feel free to go check that out.", "start": 34.949997, "end": 36.79 }, { "text": "It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it.", "start": 36.79, "end": 39.35 }, { "text": "It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech.", "start": 39.35, "end": 46.925 } ], "start": 25.224998, "end": 46.925, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show.", "start": 47.065, "end": 49.725 }, { "text": "Thank you both for joining us here on civic tech chat.", "start": 50.425, "end": 53.704998 }, { "text": "Could Could you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do?", "start": 53.704998, "end": 56.97 } ], "start": 47.065, "end": 56.97, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi.", "start": 57.989998, "end": 58.23 }, { "text": "My name is Rohan Bobe.", "start": 58.23, "end": 59.67 }, { "text": "I'm the CEO and cofounder of Nava.", "start": 59.67, "end": 61.77 }, { "text": "I've been with the company since the very beginning, about eight years now, and, do all kinds of things.", "start": 62.309998, "end": 69.145004 }, { "text": "Happy to talk about them and be with you today.", "start": 69.145004, "end": 71.725 } ], "start": 57.989998, "end": 71.725, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 73.065, "end": 73.385 }, { "text": "Hey.", "start": 73.385, "end": 73.785 }, { "text": "This is Sha Huang.", "start": 74.025, "end": 75.325 }, { "text": "I'm the COO here at Nava and also one of the cofounders.", "start": 76.105, "end": 79.725 }, { "text": "Also, yeah, crossing that crossing that eight year line, and have worn a variety of hats through through the years.", "start": 81.299995, "end": 88.18 } ], "start": 73.065, "end": 88.18, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, yeah, excited for this conversation today.", "start": 88.18, "end": 90.44 } ], "start": 88.18, "end": 90.44, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For each of you, what would you say is your personal why?", "start": 91.14, "end": 94.04 }, { "text": "You know, that thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do.", "start": 94.355, "end": 98.775 } ], "start": 91.14, "end": 98.775, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's a great question.", "start": 99.795, "end": 100.935 }, { "text": "I for me, the the thing that I come back to, over the longer arc of Nava's work is I deeply believe, that our public institutions need to be built for the digital age.", "start": 101.155, "end": 123.845 }, { "text": "And, this is not only important, it is urgent.", "start": 125.185005, "end": 129.205 }, { "text": "Technology is how policy value gets delivered to people, and our government needs to be capable of, shipping value, shipping results, and outcomes effectively, fairly, transparently, quickly.", "start": 130.30501, "end": 146.88 }, { "text": "And this needs to be true in the digital age.", "start": 148.145, "end": 150.40501 } ], "start": 99.795, "end": 150.40501, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Many of these institutions were stood up as the country was industrializing after World War two.", "start": 151.425, "end": 156.565 }, { "text": "We are now in a different, era, And I think this work, the the the consequences both for doing this well and the consequences for not getting it right, are my, are are the thing that motivates me.", "start": 157.265, "end": 179.045 }, { "text": "Because, if we can get this right, I think democratic institutions are gonna be, in a much better position through this century and are gonna be able to serve people, with the challenges that are coming, not the challenges we have today, the challenges that are also coming.", "start": 179.045, "end": 197.52 }, { "text": "And if we don't get it right, a lot of the issues we see where trust in public trust in public institutions is low will just continue to erode and be exacerbated, which is not a cost that we can pay as society.", "start": 198.62, "end": 212.325 }, { "text": "So, those, that that is the thing, that really drives me, in my work at Nava.", "start": 212.465, "end": 220.72499 } ], "start": 151.425, "end": 220.72499, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 221.5, "end": 221.82 }, { "text": "Plus one thing, everything Rohan said, that kind of centers the why for me personally around, you know, the kind of historic arc we're in about declining trust in public institutions and what, what the harms are or what the cost is of that, what that costs the public, what that costs underserved populations, what that costs us in terms of our ability to act on the coming challenges, that we're going to face, at a systemic at a systemic level.", "start": 221.82, "end": 258.76 }, { "text": "I think an additional lens, I think I think about their you know, that's been pretty centering through the years and as Nava has grown significantly as an organization is being able to do right by the team that we have brought into these problems, into these spaces.", "start": 259.62, "end": 277.235 }, { "text": "Being able to, you know, we talk a lot at Nava about leverage points, being able to be high leverage, against some of the systemic technical or structural or organizational or policy challenges that our institutions are facing, and being able to have a deme demonstrable progress, being able to make some of the outcomes, inarguable, or make some of the the kind of ways of working, in a more modern or more human centered or more resilient way, make those things, feel, feel, irresistible or inevitable, by, the kind of momentum we've built or the outcomes we've been able to demonstrate along the way.", "start": 278.38998, "end": 327.91498 } ], "start": 221.5, "end": 327.91498, "num_words": 235.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think those are those are things that really center me these days.", "start": 327.91498, "end": 332.53 }, { "text": "I think Rohan and I have joked before that if we weren't doing Nava, that we would be trying to work on these problems anyways, like, that the kind of challenges that our country is facing during this moment in history, that the skills that we have, or the experiences that we have, these are some of the highest leverage things that we could be doing with our time in this particular moment.", "start": 332.53, "end": 358.305 } ], "start": 327.91498, "end": 358.305, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Your mention of, wanting to work in problem spaces that face this country is perhaps a great segue to get us into some of our main topic conversation.", "start": 359.2, "end": 367.46 }, { "text": "As folks might be aware, you were both involved in the effort to respond to the rollout problems that happened with healthcare.gov.", "start": 368.63998, "end": 376.855 }, { "text": "That was a fairly loud moment, for folks, especially those aware of the health care space.", "start": 376.995, "end": 382.535 }, { "text": "I'll throw a piece in the Atlantic in the episode description that is a good read if folks wanna get kinda greater context on some of the story, y'all were involved in.", "start": 383.315, "end": 391.58002 }, { "text": "But why did each of you want to jump into that effort?", "start": 392.04, "end": 395.66 } ], "start": 359.2, "end": 395.66, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For", "start": 396.84, "end": 397.08002 } ], "start": 396.84, "end": 397.08002, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "me, you know, I'll I'll say upfront that although today, we're we're kind of at a point where we can talk about, Nava's history and Nava's aspirations, none of that, at least for me, existed when we came to healthcare.gov to, sort of pitch in.", "start": 397.08002, "end": 419.81003 }, { "text": "The you know, it was a very simple, decision point for me, which is, you know, the president's signature legislative achievement had been passed in 2010, the ACA.", "start": 420.75, "end": 436.025 }, { "text": "They had spent three years implementing it, and it was failing.", "start": 436.64502, "end": 440.185 }, { "text": "And, it was failing very publicly, and I had a set of skills that could contribute to it potentially not failing.", "start": 441.045, "end": 451.07 }, { "text": "And, you know, there was no, at that time, sense of nobody was thinking about starting a company.", "start": 452.01, "end": 458.17 } ], "start": 397.08002, "end": 458.17, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nobody was thinking about, you know, the future, how this might be connected to larger structural problems, the patterns of of failures for this type of work.", "start": 458.17, "end": 467.76498 }, { "text": "At least I was not thinking about that at all.", "start": 468.22498, "end": 470.305 }, { "text": "It was simply, you know, the ask was, can you come help for two to three weeks?", "start": 470.305, "end": 476.32498 }, { "text": "And the answer was yes because, this was important, and I thought I could help move it forward.", "start": 476.38498, "end": 483.09 }, { "text": "And, you know, that was an interesting experience for me because it it introduced me to a sense of purpose that could be learned as opposed to just, you know, something you're born with or inherited from somewhere else.", "start": 485.15, "end": 505.90002 } ], "start": 458.17, "end": 505.90002, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's like we as we familiarized ourselves with the type of challenges and problems in the space, we developed that passion.", "start": 505.90002, "end": 513.9 }, { "text": "We developed greater understanding of, you know, what is the root cause here, what is the why, and the sources of, some of the problems that lead to something like healthcare.gov.", "start": 513.9, "end": 524.345 }, { "text": "But in terms of original motivation, it was pretty practical.", "start": 524.345, "end": 528.285 }, { "text": "You know, we we saw a big problem.", "start": 528.505, "end": 531.08496 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 531.27, "end": 531.51 } ], "start": 505.90002, "end": 531.51, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The president and the country needed that help, so you you respond.", "start": 531.51, "end": 535.37 } ], "start": 531.51, "end": 535.37, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 536.55005, "end": 536.79004 }, { "text": "I think when I got the call, it was certainly not something planned or expected.", "start": 536.79004, "end": 544.57 }, { "text": "And but it was, you know, a challenge that was very visible.", "start": 546.46497, "end": 550.485 }, { "text": "You know, I think all of us who got involved had been seeing it in the news or hearing about it before getting the individual calls that brought us together.", "start": 550.94495, "end": 560.88495 }, { "text": "I remember at the time when I got my call, I was, I ended up texting with, one of my old bosses, Mike Magerski, who was at that time the CTO of Code for America.", "start": 561.65, "end": 573.43005 } ], "start": 536.55005, "end": 573.43005, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, I was, I think, you know, wondering out loud, you know, is this something is this, basically, like, is this a suicide mission?", "start": 573.49005, "end": 583.175 }, { "text": "Is this actually going are we actually going to solve some problems?", "start": 583.475, "end": 588.375 }, { "text": "You know, or is it, you know, for show?", "start": 589.65, "end": 592.63 }, { "text": "Can I actually do this work?", "start": 594.05, "end": 595.83 }, { "text": "You know, what what's kind of needed for this task?", "start": 596.05, "end": 599.75 } ], "start": 573.49005, "end": 599.75, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think Mike I I my memory of this is, like, Mike just let me ramble on, around all the reasons or concerns, not to.", "start": 600.13, "end": 609.865 }, { "text": "And I think his only response was, you know, well, could you make it worse?", "start": 609.865, "end": 613.565 }, { "text": "And, I think that that was enough of a kernel of belief that, you know, that I personally could contribute something to this effort, that got me involved.", "start": 615.865, "end": 626.98 }, { "text": "And I think, like Rohan mentioned, I think, you know, it was not, you know, part of my personal career, you know, five year plan to be working with and for, government services or government programs.", "start": 627.2, "end": 643.125 }, { "text": "But after the experience of healthcare.gov, it was impossible to imagine otherwise.", "start": 643.185, "end": 651.39996 } ], "start": 600.13, "end": 651.39996, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It was impossible to imagine, other work that could be somehow more clarifying or purposeful, or meaningful, to work on in the future.", "start": 652.57996, "end": 663.16 } ], "start": 652.57996, "end": 663.16, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "From that situation, you eventually found yourselves in one where you were initially like firefighters as you got into that moment, responding to a crisis.", "start": 664.545, "end": 672.805 }, { "text": "And, I believe this was a phrase y'all used when we were talking about the episode kinda in prep where you talked about going from that to becoming architects, you know, folks that are now building something that's meant to last beyond just a response.", "start": 673.105, "end": 685.55005 }, { "text": "Can y'all talk a bit about the experience of going from that mindset over to the architect one?", "start": 686.25, "end": 691.95 } ], "start": 664.545, "end": 691.95, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 692.725, "end": 692.965 }, { "text": "That's a great question.", "start": 692.965, "end": 694.025 }, { "text": "I think some of the questions so Mikey Dickerson was one of the other, people involved in the in the tech search effort.", "start": 694.085, "end": 702.165 }, { "text": "One of was one of the first people called in.", "start": 702.165, "end": 704.585 }, { "text": "One of the questions as we were working as a team, you know, kind of fighting many of these fires and trying to make the changes that we were hoping would, be impactful.", "start": 706.14, "end": 715.2 } ], "start": 692.725, "end": 715.2, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One of the questions he posed to us was, you know, what what do we need to build here for healthcare.gov so that the next year's open enrollment that, you know, a similar team wasn't just going to need to be called again, that, that the healthcare.gov open and yearly open enrollment periods would just roll from crisis to crisis to crisis to crisis and, you know, whatever we built was just kind of uptaping things, temporarily until, you know, the next surge in traffic or things like that.", "start": 716.22003, "end": 756.865 }, { "text": "And that was a useful question for us that framed some of the more systemic things that we needed to do on healthcare.gov, like, building a replacement for healthcare.gov's identity management system, which was causing the majority of the outages rather than just, you know, patching something existing, but actually replacing something wholesale, and and thinking about the things that would get healthcare.gov as a as a whole to a more resilient place.", "start": 756.865, "end": 784.585 }, { "text": "But I think that line of thinking led us to, led us as well to think about what it what it would mean to, to stay, or things like that.", "start": 785.525, "end": 796.17004 }, { "text": "And I think Rohan can speak to that more.", "start": 796.17004, "end": 798.19 } ], "start": 716.22003, "end": 798.19, "num_words": 201.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something you mentioned there that I'd like to follow-up on a little bit, if you don't mind, is, you mentioned the the the part of the story where you replaced the identity system as opposed to patching it.", "start": 798.57, "end": 808.905 }, { "text": "I think that's one of those situations where at the service level, it may look like it's, say, more risk to replace a component because, you know, more effort, therefore, more risk.", "start": 808.905, "end": 818.73 }, { "text": "But perhaps it's one of those unique situations where it's actually kinda counterintuitive, where there's actually, like, a greater amount of risk in attempting to patch the thing.", "start": 819.05, "end": 826.99 }, { "text": "Can you talk a bit about, you know, how, how did you communicate about that about that choice?", "start": 827.13, "end": 832.395 }, { "text": "And, because often it can be kinda tough to say, convince a stakeholder, go ahead and go with, like, the replacement strategy and and see that it is actually, like, the less riskier option.", "start": 832.955, "end": 842.575 } ], "start": 798.57, "end": 842.575, "num_words": 150.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 843.67505, "end": 844.17505 }, { "text": "The our our approach at that time was to let the results speak.", "start": 844.635, "end": 851.11 }, { "text": "Meaning, it was, there was a lot already a lot of attention and energy and time and money going into trying to understand where the problems were in the existing system, you know, dealing with them.", "start": 852.20996, "end": 868.255 }, { "text": "So that that problem was already being worked, with a lot of attention and resources, etcetera.", "start": 868.255, "end": 874.995 }, { "text": "What we our approach was to say, we think there's a better way, and we're just gonna go ahead and and ship what we think is a better alternative, and let's let's put these things side by side.", "start": 876.75, "end": 892.305 } ], "start": 843.67505, "end": 892.305, "num_words": 104.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So over the course of, you know, about approximately six months, depends how you measure it, but about six months with about four to five people, we built a replacement system, that used the same APIs so that other systems that integrated with the the identity management system wouldn't really have to change.", "start": 893.725, "end": 916.955 }, { "text": "They just have to point at different endpoints.", "start": 916.955, "end": 918.975 }, { "text": "And, you know, we wanted to be able to put things side by side such as, load testing results.", "start": 920.555, "end": 927.3 }, { "text": "So if you load test the existing system, you load test a new system, what are the performance metrics?", "start": 927.38, "end": 934.27997 }, { "text": "What's the error rate?", "start": 934.33997, "end": 935.54 } ], "start": 893.725, "end": 935.54, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 935.54, "end": 936.2 }, { "text": "How does the the system scale to handle different load profiles and and volume of load?", "start": 938.58, "end": 946.265 }, { "text": "So, that that was our approach was to, you know, just be able to put things side by side and to allow decision makers to decide, you know, what was better.", "start": 947.68506, "end": 958.0 }, { "text": "And we we had an opinion.", "start": 958.0, "end": 959.6 }, { "text": "We advocated for our opinion.", "start": 959.6, "end": 961.3 } ], "start": 935.54, "end": 961.3, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But what was also the case was we weren't gonna advocate for our solution if it wasn't actually better.", "start": 961.4, "end": 967.13995 }, { "text": "We were confident that our solution was better.", "start": 967.27997, "end": 969.86 }, { "text": "It the results bore that out.", "start": 970.0, "end": 972.18 }, { "text": "But let's say there was a world in which, you know, we didn't develop something better.", "start": 972.58496, "end": 976.26495 }, { "text": "We wouldn't have tried to tried to push it.", "start": 976.26495, "end": 979.40497 } ], "start": 961.4, "end": 979.40497, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But given that we ended up being correct and the results bore that out, you know, we were able to take that to decision makers and say, look.", "start": 980.58496, "end": 988.23 }, { "text": "Here's here's how we should do it.", "start": 988.23, "end": 991.43 }, { "text": "Here's the plan for actually, you know, cutting over what that would look like.", "start": 991.67, "end": 995.37 }, { "text": "Ultimately, they decided to go with the new system because we could prove using data and testing and demos that it was less risky than the existing system.", "start": 996.23, "end": 1005.455 }, { "text": "And we were able to cut over in the in the course of a night, migrate all the production data without the loss of a single record, etcetera.", "start": 1006.235, "end": 1013.135 } ], "start": 980.58496, "end": 1013.135, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, that was that was our approach.", "start": 1013.275, "end": 1015.94 } ], "start": 1013.275, "end": 1015.94, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Keeping in the theme of making choices, toward the the end of this process, I gather you've formed a company, one we've talked about, a few times here.", "start": 1016.8, "end": 1026.64 }, { "text": "I'd be curious to hear a bit about the why for that.", "start": 1026.64, "end": 1029.075 }, { "text": "You know, why take that step?", "start": 1029.075, "end": 1030.455 }, { "text": "Were there other options that y'all were considering at the time?", "start": 1030.755, "end": 1033.735 } ], "start": 1016.8, "end": 1033.735, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Backing up to the context, at that time.", "start": 1034.755, "end": 1038.355 }, { "text": "So at the time when we as folks that started Nava, we were about eighteen months into our journey of shipping products on healthcare.gov, that made the experience better, that made the site more reliable.", "start": 1038.355, "end": 1055.6799 }, { "text": "And at that time, you know, the community we were in was was pretty small, the digital services community.", "start": 1056.94, "end": 1063.575 }, { "text": "USCS maybe had about, I think, around five folks or so.", "start": 1063.715, "end": 1068.455 }, { "text": "Eighteen f had about 10 folks or so.", "start": 1068.995, "end": 1071.655 } ], "start": 1034.755, "end": 1071.655, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We were around six folks.", "start": 1072.44, "end": 1075.1799 }, { "text": "So it's pretty small, you know, set of people at that time.", "start": 1076.28, "end": 1080.2 }, { "text": "And what we saw was, we saw momentum within the government on their being, advocating for a better way to structure, manage, run technology projects.", "start": 1080.2, "end": 1095.645 }, { "text": "Folks like Mikey Dickerson, the founding team at USCS, the folks at eighteen f, they they got it, and they were kind of running with what needed to change on the government side.", "start": 1096.425, "end": 1108.0701 }, { "text": "What we saw as a unique contribution that we could make is, first of all, we as a team have a track record.", "start": 1108.53, "end": 1115.805 } ], "start": 1072.44, "end": 1115.805, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We have eighteen months of experience shipping high quality products in a government context, where we had to advocate you know, half of our work was advocating for our way of working, which is uncomfortable if you've never worked that way before.", "start": 1116.045, "end": 1131.48 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1131.48, "end": 1131.72 }, { "text": "Not being able to say, here's what we're gonna ship six months from now.", "start": 1131.72, "end": 1136.14 }, { "text": "So, what we sort of if we had conversations as a team to sit down and say, hey.", "start": 1137.24, "end": 1143.715 }, { "text": "What's the future here?", "start": 1143.715, "end": 1144.995 } ], "start": 1116.045, "end": 1144.995, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We all clearly had a passion.", "start": 1144.995, "end": 1147.255 }, { "text": "We all sort of were bit by that purpose bug, and, became kind of hooked on, you know, the just the idea that our skills could be applied to work that was far more meaningful than building, you know, ad products in Silicon Valley, frankly.", "start": 1147.5549, "end": 1169.14 }, { "text": "And the, the decision to start a company really was came from the idea that, if the government efforts that were ongoing at that time were successful, they would need to work with, vendors who could work with them in good faith, who had the skills and the quality, and who could be trusted not to, sort of just treat it like a stream of revenue, but to actually, you know, do what was right for users, do what was right for the work, steward the agency's responsibility.", "start": 1170.3251, "end": 1207.4651 }, { "text": "We saw that being a, a sort of critical function that had to exist, but that didn't exist.", "start": 1209.125, "end": 1216.7999 }, { "text": "When we looked around, nobody else was playing that role.", "start": 1216.7999, "end": 1219.46 } ], "start": 1144.995, "end": 1219.46, "num_words": 167.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we thought, you know, we are positioned we we have a track record of working together.", "start": 1220.32, "end": 1224.4 }, { "text": "We like working together.", "start": 1224.4, "end": 1225.62 }, { "text": "Let's fill that that void that is gonna be necessary, but is, you know, nobody's orienting to that today.", "start": 1225.985, "end": 1233.985 }, { "text": "And then we can pair with the people on the government side to, you know, ultimately drive the outcomes that that we cared about.", "start": 1233.985, "end": 1241.71 } ], "start": 1220.32, "end": 1241.71, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The organization is also unique in that it's a public benefit corporation.", "start": 1242.57, "end": 1247.23 }, { "text": "Can you all talk a bit about what that is for folks that might not be as familiar and why you made the choice to use that structure?", "start": 1247.85, "end": 1255.8351 } ], "start": 1242.57, "end": 1255.8351, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1256.6151, "end": 1256.935 }, { "text": "That's a great question.", "start": 1256.935, "end": 1257.915 }, { "text": "We're yeah.", "start": 1258.295, "end": 1259.415 }, { "text": "So we're a public benefit corporation, and we made that choice as we were talking about founding Nava because, the public benefit corporation designation was relatively new at that time in 2014, 2015.", "start": 1259.415, "end": 1273.64 }, { "text": "What it meant was and, you know, the intention of the PBC designation was that you could have a corporation that had a social charter or a public benefit mission that was baked into, its governance structure, that was baked into, the kind of duties, of the shareholders.", "start": 1274.42, "end": 1295.66 } ], "start": 1256.6151, "end": 1295.66, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So instead of just, you know, a for profit corporation that has a fiduciary duty to kind of return value to shareholders, that incorporating as a public benefit corporation would mean that we also had this parallel responsibility, baked in at the deepest level of the organization to deliver on our mission, to help serve the government and and build these more resilient public institutions.", "start": 1295.88, "end": 1323.545 }, { "text": "It was a it it was a harder it was a, I I think, a strange decision for us to make at the time there.", "start": 1325.64, "end": 1333.66 }, { "text": "You know, our lawyers didn't know what a public benefit corporation was.", "start": 1334.04, "end": 1338.12 }, { "text": "It's still you know, there are not many PBCs.", "start": 1338.12, "end": 1341.055 }, { "text": "But we felt like it was, you know, the government providing a designation that aligned with our values.", "start": 1341.915, "end": 1350.895 } ], "start": 1295.88, "end": 1350.895, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And if we were building an organization to work with government agencies and be active stewards of their, missions and their desired outcomes, it would feel somehow contradictory to then ignore this corporate designation that was created to to be in line with some of the same values that we shared.", "start": 1351.435, "end": 1373.605 }, { "text": "So we felt like that was a way to make, you know, our our mission or our values baked into something deeper than just, you know, a Google Doc, but actually bake that into the structure of the corporation.", "start": 1374.785, "end": 1385.77 } ], "start": 1351.435, "end": 1385.77, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To follow-up on that last statement about having the values be more than just a Google Doc, I I think I recall from our kind of prep conversation that one of y'all meant used the phrase, like, we wanted our values to have teeth, which I think kinda uniquely applies to this sort of structure.", "start": 1386.87, "end": 1403.7351 }, { "text": "How does a public benefit corporation, do that with with a set of values in an organization like yours?", "start": 1404.1951, "end": 1409.9751 } ], "start": 1386.87, "end": 1409.9751, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1410.69, "end": 1410.9299 }, { "text": "That's a great question.", "start": 1410.9299, "end": 1411.97 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1411.97, "end": 1412.13 }, { "text": "We we did want our values to have teeth, and the public benefit corporation designation, I think, allowed us to do so.", "start": 1412.13, "end": 1418.87 }, { "text": "To the other point, I think Rohan mentioned around the kind of vendor ecosystem, we did see some of the dark incentives or negative incentives of the ecosystem pulling you towards, you know, prioritizing, maximizing revenue, or bidding on anything at all costs, under delivering for the government, or or kind of, not holding to some promises or commitments, or not aligning with the the vision or mission of the agencies you were serving.", "start": 1419.6499, "end": 1451.11 } ], "start": 1410.69, "end": 1451.11, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we saw that as a real risk.", "start": 1452.21, "end": 1453.9551 }, { "text": "And I think in terms of having teeth, what being a PBC means is that, you know, even if and I I use this as an example.", "start": 1453.9551, "end": 1462.515 }, { "text": "You know, Nava has no outside investors.", "start": 1462.515, "end": 1464.4551 }, { "text": "The only shareholders of Nava are current or former employees.", "start": 1464.515, "end": 1468.2151 }, { "text": "So even if everyone at Nava were to resign today and a fully new set of new CEO, new executive team, new anything like that, if we as past sharehold as kind of existing shareholders, but not even current staff, saw Nava straying away from its stated public benefit mission or stated kind of social charter baked into, its incorporation, then we could, then we could litigate.", "start": 1468.9701, "end": 1504.49 } ], "start": 1452.21, "end": 1504.49, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We could kind of bring a suit to Nava about failing to deliver on its, on its mission in the same ways that, activist shareholders in public companies, you know, litigate corporations for failing to maximize, you know, revenue to to their shareholders.", "start": 1504.5499, "end": 1522.915 }, { "text": "And we felt like that, you know, that allowed us to make, some of these commitments, not just in good faith, but with some with some backup, that even if, you know, if everything at Nava changed hands, there were still some mechanisms for accountability, for this organization long term.", "start": 1523.68, "end": 1544.485 } ], "start": 1504.5499, "end": 1544.485, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'll add to that a little bit that, in addition to the accountability piece like Shah talked about, it's also the case that because these, you know, we have this dual commitment, at the deepest level to, to the mission and and to shareholders that, the executive team is protected and able to make decisions in the public benefit that harm shareholders.", "start": 1546.065, "end": 1578.175 }, { "text": "That cannot be done in, it it in a traditional company, you know, the the mandate is to maximize shareholder value, do not damage shareholder value, and shareholders can accuse, you know, the executive team, the board of, making decisions that have harmed their interest, and it is in their they're fiduciaries.", "start": 1578.8899, "end": 1604.375 }, { "text": "They have to, you know, steward the shareholders' interest.", "start": 1604.5951, "end": 1608.375 }, { "text": "We We have a dual man mandate, and, there are situations in which when there is a hard, you know, zero sum trade off between those two, we we are legally allowed to, pursue the mission at the expense of shareholder value.", "start": 1608.755, "end": 1631.4451 }, { "text": "Now, obviously, it's like we're not seeking out those situations, but when push comes to shove, you know, there's some teeth there legally speaking.", "start": 1631.4451, "end": 1641.53 } ], "start": 1546.065, "end": 1641.53, "num_words": 189.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Listeners might recall that in June, we had the privilege of getting to chat with, someone named Mark Funkhouser to talk a bit about the impact, the pandemic has had on local government.", "start": 1642.63, "end": 1653.77 }, { "text": "And as it turned out, there's been a fair share of problems to solve and crises to respond to at those levels.", "start": 1654.285, "end": 1660.385 }, { "text": "I'll, toss an episode link in the description for folks that wanna dive into that context and come back.", "start": 1660.685, "end": 1666.56 }, { "text": "As an organization that's focused its energy on that space, how's the pandemic affected the work you've been doing with those government partners?", "start": 1667.3601, "end": 1675.8601 } ], "start": 1642.63, "end": 1675.8601, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think part of our motivation to even operate, at at at this level and work across multiple levels of government.", "start": 1677.28, "end": 1687.455 }, { "text": "We got our start in federal.", "start": 1687.995, "end": 1689.455 }, { "text": "Most of the company is sort of in our peer space purely operate federally.", "start": 1689.595, "end": 1694.74 }, { "text": "One of the reasons why we made a conscious decision before the pandemic to support government at at different levels is, there are critical programs, mission critical programs that are run by state and local governments.", "start": 1695.52, "end": 1711.275 }, { "text": "You know, even if you're looking at US safety net programs, approximately half of programs that are sort of part of the, US safety net are administered by states.", "start": 1713.335, "end": 1728.92 } ], "start": 1677.28, "end": 1728.92, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's a critical part of what affects people, which is what we sort of center around when we decide, you know, where where do we wanna work.", "start": 1728.92, "end": 1737.1799 }, { "text": "Obviously, the the pandemic happened.", "start": 1738.4349, "end": 1740.375 }, { "text": "There were, you know, I I think it is it's telling that at exactly the moment in 2020 when unemployment in the country was at its highest rate since, World War two, that you had the virtual, simultaneous failing of about 54 unemployment insurance systems.", "start": 1741.875, "end": 1768.755 }, { "text": "These systems have had billions of dollars and decades of investment to, to put them in they should have been in a position where, you know, they were ready to meet the moment.", "start": 1769.0549, "end": 1780.355 }, { "text": "They were not.", "start": 1781.0, "end": 1781.7999 } ], "start": 1728.92, "end": 1781.7999, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think the, that is if you just take a big step back, you know, part of our motivation for go where the impact is, it's natural for us to want to be involved here.", "start": 1781.7999, "end": 1799.255 }, { "text": "In terms of patterns we're we're seeing, you know, some it it's been an interesting learning experience for us to sort of compare and contrast our work at the federal level and our work at the state level.", "start": 1800.675, "end": 1814.16 }, { "text": "Some things are, some things are shared.", "start": 1814.38, "end": 1818.54 }, { "text": "For example, you see common common challenges such as, you know, how do you organize a complex technology project that's not fundamentally different, between different levels of government.", "start": 1818.54, "end": 1832.935 }, { "text": "But then there are interesting, you know, differences that, you know, we've been kind of pleasantly surprised to learn about.", "start": 1833.795, "end": 1841.5 } ], "start": 1781.7999, "end": 1841.5, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 1841.5, "end": 1841.74 }, { "text": "For example, with our work in Vermont, it's been interesting to see how much closer the civil servants feel to the communities they serve.", "start": 1841.74, "end": 1855.405 }, { "text": "You know, everybody that works for, say, government in Vermont is a Vermonter.", "start": 1856.105, "end": 1860.045 }, { "text": "It's a it's a relatively small state.", "start": 1860.905, "end": 1863.245 }, { "text": "When we're talking about things like user research and understanding, you know, the pain the pain points, mentally, it's, you know, there's a much closer feeling for for a Vermont civil servant, I think, to their user base than, for example, you run a a extremely large federal program that serves everybody.", "start": 1863.78, "end": 1886.305 } ], "start": 1841.5, "end": 1886.305, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's important too in a different way, of course.", "start": 1886.365, "end": 1888.605 }, { "text": "But, that's been, you know, an interesting sort of learning point for us as we think about our work at at multiple levels.", "start": 1888.605, "end": 1897.44 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1898.78, "end": 1899.28 }, { "text": "Shah, do you wanna chime in?", "start": 1899.5, "end": 1900.78 }, { "text": "I'll I'll think a little bit about some good examples there.", "start": 1900.78, "end": 1903.84 } ], "start": 1886.365, "end": 1903.84, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1904.495, "end": 1904.655 }, { "text": "I think the a different thing to think about, and I think, Rohan, you touched on it as well with the unemployment surge is I think the the pandemic has disrupted the the entire country in so many different ways.", "start": 1904.655, "end": 1921.2799 }, { "text": "But it's also just revealed so many cracks and seams in our safety net that were already there, that were there for decades, that I think anyone who's been on SNAP or Medicaid, or TANF or WIC could have told you about were were true of their experiences of the program, even prior to a pandemic.", "start": 1921.8999, "end": 1943.95 }, { "text": "So I think what has been, I think, I think there's that, that saying, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste.", "start": 1944.25, "end": 1954.73 }, { "text": "I think there's a much broader and more visceral, sense of understanding of the cost of failure, the cost of not making some of these systemic changes, the cost of not thinking about business process and, you know, just focusing on technology, or the cost of, focusing on business process, without thinking about policy.", "start": 1954.73, "end": 1980.86 } ], "start": 1904.495, "end": 1980.86, "num_words": 175.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think those those things have been borne out in in pretty staggering ways.", "start": 1982.12, "end": 1987.1151 }, { "text": "And I think that's been that point has been hammered home pretty well.", "start": 1987.5951, "end": 1991.6951 }, { "text": "I think also the point around resilience has become, closer to a lot of the agencies we speak to, as not a hypothetical resilience they need to build, but a real and pragmatic one, that they need to build to be able to respond to the the kind of current crises, and and the coming challenges that our public institutions are gonna face.", "start": 1992.3151, "end": 2017.015 } ], "start": 1982.12, "end": 2017.015, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something that I I imagine both of you are well aware of working in this space is that at that point where you're delivering a service, particularly using technology as needed, that's very much a point where kinda like policy systems meet computer systems.", "start": 2018.035, "end": 2032.9601 }, { "text": "And there's kind of problems that can be created by the implementation of both and also, like, the relationships they have with each other.", "start": 2033.42, "end": 2040.885 }, { "text": "How as you've been doing this work in in these in in these benefit systems, how have you seen your role as as a partner where those things meet?", "start": 2041.745, "end": 2051.5999 } ], "start": 2018.035, "end": 2051.5999, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2052.22, "end": 2052.46 }, { "text": "That's a excellent question.", "start": 2052.46, "end": 2054.72 }, { "text": "You know, I think one of the ways in which we've grown is to understand, you know, I think anybody who has experience in this space comes to understand that, these are not technology problems.", "start": 2056.22, "end": 2069.7249 }, { "text": "The technology itself is capable of meeting people's needs.", "start": 2070.025, "end": 2075.085 }, { "text": "You know, we're not inventing anything in in the course of our work.", "start": 2075.545, "end": 2081.2202 } ], "start": 2052.22, "end": 2081.2202, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We do have to be creative and solve lots of problems, but they're not, you know, technology r and d problems.", "start": 2081.2202, "end": 2087.56 }, { "text": "They are they are oftentimes complex issues at the intersection of multiple domains.", "start": 2089.06, "end": 2095.845 }, { "text": "And, to, I I think, to the to the question you asked, you know, a lot of times we find, for example, business process to be intimately wrapped up with the way a particular technology might enable, you know, a workflow, let's say.", "start": 2095.845, "end": 2115.76 }, { "text": "And or to take other examples, you mentioned policy, the intersection of technology and policy.", "start": 2116.86, "end": 2124.6948 }, { "text": "Or to take another example, the intersection of technology and, talent or labor, meaning, you know, the supply of of people within the agency or outside the agency who can actually, you know, make a decision, or, you know, process a a particular, claim or or, sort of request that comes in.", "start": 2125.075, "end": 2151.02 } ], "start": 2081.2202, "end": 2151.02, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, usually, you know, we I I think the the first thing we do, and that we're quite good at is that we we try to widen the aperture as much as possible.", "start": 2151.4001, "end": 2163.585 }, { "text": "So not starting from a place of, like, you know, how do we, you know, get this type of technology, you know, injected here?", "start": 2164.285, "end": 2173.05 }, { "text": "We are pretty agnostic to technology and to techniques and tools.", "start": 2173.27, "end": 2178.1702 }, { "text": "We start with the outcomes, and we typically work backwards to say, okay.", "start": 2179.03, "end": 2182.31 }, { "text": "Well, what's, you know, what's the ideal solution, not just from a technology perspective, but if we're setting this agency up for long term success to serve its users, how would we do that?", "start": 2182.31, "end": 2193.935 } ], "start": 2151.4001, "end": 2193.935, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What would the ideal look like?", "start": 2194.075, "end": 2195.775 }, { "text": "What's stopping us from making that happen?", "start": 2196.2349, "end": 2198.85 }, { "text": "And then we go through a process, to try to, you know, block and tackle those issues, to create buy in, to to ask for feedback from the agency.", "start": 2200.05, "end": 2211.33 }, { "text": "There's oftentimes, subject many subject matter experts within the agency that know the intricacies of policy operations, the way that things actually work that has to be factored into our plan.", "start": 2211.33, "end": 2224.4949 }, { "text": "So we're iterating that that plan sort of long before code is is getting shipped is the architecture of that approach has to be sound, and there has to be, you know, you can never impose a solution.", "start": 2224.4949, "end": 2240.8901 } ], "start": 2194.075, "end": 2240.8901, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You have to, you know, cocreate.", "start": 2241.11, "end": 2243.825 }, { "text": "You have to, I I think USDS has a value that's built with, not for.", "start": 2244.045, "end": 2250.465 }, { "text": "This is exactly the right way to not only build capacity, within the agency, but to also make it more likely that any solutions you develop can be operationalized well, and that can be maintained over the long term because it's the agency that holds that responsibility over the long term.", "start": 2251.405, "end": 2270.28 }, { "text": "So, that's that's typically how we approach these complex problems that can often live at the 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decisions.", "start": 2318.45, "end": 2323.8901 }, { "text": "It's like how we make decisions in building the organization and how do we structure it and set us up for success to deliver on our mission, or make progress on it.", "start": 2323.8901, "end": 2334.2349 }, { "text": "And then on the other side, it's how do we continue to, be active stewards, and play the role that, we feel is necessary to exist on the vendor side to help government agencies, you know, continue to serve their, their publics.", "start": 2334.535, "end": 2352.1099 }, { "text": "On the organization building side, I think, you know, one one choice that I think Rohan and I were reminded of recently was a choice to actually not build something, that we, decided to make at Nava several years ago.", "start": 2352.89, "end": 2369.7449 } ], "start": 2318.21, "end": 2369.7449, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, that identity management system that Rohan mentioned earlier that we, 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}, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But over the long term, I think Rohan, you know, said to said to us, you know, after thinking about it for a while, he said, you know, over the long term, our interests and the government's interests would diverge.", "start": 2482.8599, "end": 2493.8398 }, { "text": "Over the long term, at some point, you know, we would want to maximize lock in to our product for the agencies that we had as customers.", "start": 2495.365, "end": 2506.0251 }, { "text": "We would want to monetize the user data that we were accumulating on behalf of the government and reselling back to the government.", "start": 2506.82, "end": 2515.64 }, { "text": "And over the long term, our interest in building a kind of SaaS product along those lines and and kind of privatizing this piece, of government data would would not align with the interests of the public.", "start": 2517.3, "end": 2529.3948 }, { "text": "So we decided not to build that.", "start": 2530.7349, "end": 2532.75 } ], "start": 2482.8599, "end": 2532.75, "num_words": 134.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We decided not to go down that direction.", "start": 2533.23, "end": 2535.15 }, { "text": "I think we could do that because we were a public benefit corporation.", "start": 2535.15, "end": 2538.45 }, { "text": "I think that made the answer easy, rather than, you know, a conflicted one.", "start": 2539.31, "end": 2545.33 }, { "text": "And it's been, I think, pretty sobering, actually, to see some of the recent conversation around ID.", "start": 2546.27, "end": 2552.4648 }, { "text": "Me and and IRS announcing that they're moving away from it because, you know, in many ways, it's played out almost exactly like we were afraid it would have if we had gone down a similar path.", "start": 2552.4648, "end": 2564.7202 } ], "start": 2533.23, "end": 2564.7202, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think that's that's a kind of choice in the negative.", "start": 2565.82, "end": 2568.9402 }, { "text": "It's not something we chose to build.", "start": 2568.9402, "end": 2570.4602 }, { "text": "It's not something we chose to do with the organization.", "start": 2570.4602, "end": 2572.7202 }, { "text": "It's something we made a decision not to do several years ago.", "start": 2572.78, "end": 2576.565 }, { "text": "But I think that's been telling over the last few months, watching some of the concern, and risks raised and conflicts of interest be raised, that I think have been that have helped us reflect on how we made that decision then and, you know, what factors we were taking in, and how that has kind of played out in ways that, that we were concerned might play out for Nava.", "start": 2577.125, "end": 2601.1401 } ], "start": 2565.82, "end": 2601.1401, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's on one side.", "start": 2602.24, "end": 2603.3 }, { "text": "I think in terms of, you know, choices we've made that have 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"start": 2646.35, "end": 2666.3252 } ], "start": 2602.24, "end": 2666.3252, "num_words": 160.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think having that experience on our side and partnering with the agencies that we're working for has helped us build a better translation layer so that we're able to meet with, you know, policy and operations folks on the government side, deeply, deeply understand their needs and not just bring a technology first mindset into those settings, and then figure out, you know, as Rohan has talked about, working backwards from the policy goals or the program goals.", "start": 2666.385, "end": 2695.5452 }, { "text": "You know, is technology even the way we should solve this, or are there simple business process changes, that could make sense here?", "start": 2695.605, "end": 2704.27 }, { "text": "So I I think using using kind of technology, not as, as a hammer and thinking of everything as nails.", "start": 2704.65, "end": 2710.33 }, { "text": "I think that's been, I think, something on, making choices in how we've structured and what type of talent we've brought into the organization that I think has helped us better serve our our mission.", "start": 2710.33, "end": 2720.235 } ], "start": 2666.385, "end": 2720.235, "num_words": 157.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A term that's been used, quite a few times in in our conversation is the term outcomes as, in particular, something that you wanna focus on.", "start": 2721.335, "end": 2729.675 }, { "text": "In my experience, it can be easy to, like, lose track of those or get lost in the noise of all the other stuff that's involved with whether we're talking about a project or the way our organization's running, and it can kinda get wedged into the decision making systems that are there.", "start": 2729.815, "end": 2744.84 }, { "text": "How have you all gone about maintaining focus on that outcome, in quotes that that we've been talking about in the face of all of that?", "start": 2745.3, "end": 2752.135 } ], "start": 2721.335, "end": 2752.135, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2753.555, "end": 2753.795 }, { "text": "That's a that's a great question, and I I think that's true that the comp as you get as you grapple with the complexity of these environments and and of the execution of this work that you can sort of lose the forest for the trees if if you're not, intentional about maintaining a through line to why you're there.", "start": 2753.795, "end": 2776.535 }, { "text": "For us, I think it starts with how we define success.", "start": 2777.155, "end": 2782.035 }, { "text": "So as a public benefit corporation, we're, like any other company looking to run a healthy business.", "start": 2782.035, "end": 2791.5 }, { "text": "But in addition to that, we part of our definition of success, and this is something that I explained to all as we onboard new folks to the company, I explained to, to all our folks who join is that, part of our definition of success is advancing our opinion of structural change.", "start": 2791.5, "end": 2814.935 } ], "start": 2753.555, "end": 2814.935, "num_words": 142.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And we have a systems based view into what structural change means.", "start": 2815.075, "end": 2822.22 }, { "text": "This is a this is a framework that we've developed based on our experience.", "start": 2823.32, "end": 2828.54 }, { "text": "It's pretty simple.", "start": 2828.5999, "end": 2829.58 }, { "text": "It says that we we transform service experiences to be, fast, accessible, and simple.", "start": 2829.8, "end": 2837.275 }, { "text": "We transform program outcomes to be effective for their beneficiary population, and we transform agency technology and operational postures to be adaptable in a world that is only changing more and more rapidly.", "start": 2837.815, "end": 2851.53 } ], "start": 2815.075, "end": 2851.53, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So all of our work contributes to at least one of these layers of structural change.", "start": 2851.91, "end": 2858.17 }, { "text": "So, when we when we look at how the company makes decisions, how we hire, what our culture is, what we, you know, when you look at all of the things that we call back to regularly as a company, as project teams.", "start": 2858.47, "end": 2876.3699 }, { "text": "We we are sort of constantly maintaining that through line to the the outcomes that we are here to drive.", "start": 2877.79, "end": 2887.33 }, { "text": "And that has to exist at a corporate level in addition to, you know, at a team level because to your original point, teams can get so close to their problems that you start to operate locally.", "start": 2888.19, "end": 2905.8198 }, { "text": "And, there's nothing, you know, that that that can be fine, but it can also be easy to sort of lose that through line to to what matters.", "start": 2906.2798, "end": 2916.195 } ], "start": 2851.91, "end": 2916.195, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But at the company level, across the projects we've done, that we have today, and that we, you know, will work on in the future, that theory of change, that idea, that opinion about what structural structural change looks like, what it means, how our work and business decisions ultimately ladder to advancing that theory of change, that keeps us centered on a framework that is above the level of any specific initiative that we might be driving.", "start": 2916.675, "end": 2953.295 }, { "text": "So you know?", "start": 2953.595, "end": 2955.035 }, { "text": "And and then, yes, our our mission is aligned to with that.", "start": 2955.035, "end": 2958.7148 }, { "text": "Our values are aligned with that.", "start": 2958.7148, "end": 2959.9949 }, { "text": "Our culture is aligned with that.", "start": 2959.9949, "end": 2961.45 } ], "start": 2916.675, "end": 2961.45, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What we, you know, celebrate internally as a company, what we spotlight is is, ladders up to that.", "start": 2961.53, "end": 2968.01 }, { "text": "The way we hire ladders up to that.", "start": 2968.01, "end": 2969.69 }, { "text": "So, it's a framework that, keeps the important things, the outcomes front and center, and then, we work backwards from that.", "start": 2969.69, "end": 2980.4949 }, { "text": "And we as a team try to be a learning organization and understand how do we get there.", "start": 2980.4949, "end": 2985.635 }, { "text": "And that's, you know, the work that that we're all engaged in.", "start": 2986.255, "end": 2989.14 } ], "start": 2961.53, "end": 2989.14, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I wanna thank you both for taking the time to come on Civic Tech Chat today.", "start": 2989.94, "end": 2994.44 }, { "text": "I have no doubt that folks listening are gonna find some nuggets to learn from this conversation.", "start": 2994.5, "end": 2999.5598 }, { "text": "Again, thank you both for coming on.", "start": 2999.7798, "end": 3001.64 } ], "start": 2989.94, "end": 3001.64, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks for having us.", "start": 3001.7798, "end": 3003.0798 } ], "start": 3001.7798, "end": 3003.0798, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you so much for having us.", "start": 3003.22, "end": 3004.8398 } ], "start": 3003.22, "end": 3004.8398, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat.", "start": 3005.595, "end": 3010.095 }, { "text": "Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "start": 3010.395, "end": 3017.535 } ], "start": 3005.595, "end": 3017.535, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, 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