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There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. Joseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Yeah. Well, Well, thank first of all, thanks for having me, Ryan. My name is Joseph Taharan. A little context, I actually started, my career in the nonprofit space, specifically in case management and program management. But nowadays, I in my day job, I'm a new product designer. And outside of that, I do a lot of freelance design in addition to, operating as the brigade co captain for COVID Chicago, which is, of course, Code for America Brigade based in Chicago. And that's actually how I met you, Ryan. That is true. Yeah. Joseph, you and I got to work quite closely at Code for Chicago, and folks listening probably don't know that this interview is, what, like, two years in the in in the making. So there's a lot of a lot of hype in my brain for this conversation we're about to have. Yeah. I remember Ryan mentioning when I first met him, those actually, I I've known you 2018, I think. 2018, 2019. And, like like, I remember Ryan mentioned a podcast in, and I was like, oh, when is he gonna have me on board? What am I gonna talk about? So now I have something to talk about. But, yeah, we've spent a lot of, like, late nights working together. And, Joseph, what would you say is your personal why, the thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do? Or in that prior example, stay up real late working on stuff. You know, Ryan, I've listened to your podcast, and you asked this question a lot. And I I kinda wanna ask myself that question sometimes too. What is my personal why? So to answer the question, I don't know, which is I don't know what responses people have given on your podcast. Because I find that, I I guess I could, like there are obviously altruistic reasons for what I do. I I wanna, like, you know, help the world in any small way that I can. But I'm also like and I don't mind admitting this. I'm, like, somewhat selfish. I'm very interested in solving really complex problems. And so when I see something that seems challenging or something that I feel like can be resolved within my means, like, I'm very motivated to to go do it. So that's kind of like a twofold answer to that. But I'm I'm I feel like the older I get, the less I know about myself, contrary to what I I feel like I should be doing. You you mentioned knowing about this podcast, the one the one you're on. But Yeah. Are there other videos, books, podcasts, or other media that you'd recommend to folks out there that are listening in right now? Yeah. I'm, shameless plug, but I also am a organizer for, like, a a a small book club over in Chicago, UX book club, go to meetup.com. And we read a good amount we read, like, good UX books every month. And the two that come to mind right now that I need to I've been thinking about going back into is, one book is called The Conscious Creative by Kelly Small. The book is about, like, how you can, like, try to contribute good good good work in this world, but also still, like, profit off of it and not be ashamed about making money doing good things. And another one by Sasha Cassandra Chuck, design justice. No. This has been, like, shared a lot in, like, design circles like mine. And it's something that I have to think I have to kinda go back and read again. And a lot of it deals with, like, community organizing in the design space and working with, you know, on the ground partners who are actually doing the work and making design making sure design is an equitable process for everybody involved. So as we talked about at the beginning, you've been at Code for Chicago for a minute, and you've been leading it for a while also. Why did you wanna get involved in and become a leader of an organization like that one? Oh, man, Ryan. I It's okay if it's just the pure force of my charisma. That's I know. It it really that's partially the answer. Ryan basically asked, like, are you interested? And I was like, I don't know. Get back to me in a month. Let me see how I feel. But, there has to be some reason, and I think that goes back into, like, my why. Like, I think what we do at Code for Chicago does two things for me. One, it knows I'm, like, contributing and doing some good work in the world. And the volunteer space provides a lot of autonomy. When you it turns out when you don't attach a monetary incentive to stuff, it it opens up a lot of avenues. Obviously, it has a lot of, challenges as well when you're not getting paid to do work, but it provides a lot of freedom, that isn't like, if you worked in the consultancy or the agency space, that that provides you sometimes. So I I do enjoy doing that and, like, seeing something built up, and building that thing. I think it's kind of an amazing idea. I don't know. I find that very interesting to me personally. So In the prep conversation we had as we were getting ready for this interview, we talked a bit about the concepts of sustainable organizations. What what does that mean to you? Yeah. I when I think about sustainable organizations, especially in the context in at Cofer Chicago where everyone's not paid to be there, sustainable to me means people don't burn out and the work doesn't get done. Right? So to me yeah. To be sustainable means people are able to contribute at a healthy and regular pace that makes sense for them in a volunteer role. As one seeks to do that, something that's probably difficult is trying to keep a handle on practice leadership or, like, the areas that folks are good at, whether we're talking about, like, developers, designers, folks that are doing, like, social science type stuff, among other potential disciplines. How do you all handle guiding and supporting volunteer leaders in these sorts of, areas of expertise? Yeah. That's a great question. First off, if anyone has any advice, I'm super open to it because this is this is hard. Because, like, in a in actual workspace, I feel like there's more of incentive and more you have more resources to create those mechanisms to provide that type of support I think people need. And the volunteer space is kind of like a tick which you can get sort of thing. And, admittedly, like, we could do a better job providing support to, like, practice leadership to getting them to the point, where they feel unable to do what they can do. So to answer your your question, like, I think our strategy has been, like, identifying people who are who have, like, some investment in what we do, and usually that's based on, like, contribution. And so when I noticed people, like, wanna contribute and are active contributors in in some sort of way, whatever that criteria is in my mind. I I try to seek those people out, because those people, like, are more likely to put in the time that required in order to be, like, a practice leader. And, like, basically, it's it's it comes up to a couple things, and there's no real science to it. It's like, one, giving them space and asking them, like, what is it that you need from us to make sure you do really well. And in some cases, like, I have, like, network outside of the brigade within my own professional network, connect them to, like, a mentor or someone else who could provide them that type of support. And so that's because a lot of the times, like, if it's a dev or project manager or whatever, like, I I I I that's not within my practice because I'm a designer, so usually seeking out those resources elsewhere. And if, like, if I can't find anyone, I just usually start asking around to find out what what is that we can do. So it's a very scrappy approach to it, and I don't know if that's always the best one the approach, this specific problem we're facing. Something that occurs to me there as I reflect while while while I'm listening to your answer there is, I imagine for a lot of folks, it's also this kinda, like, weird gateway into the idea of, like, being a leader in a practice. You and potentially, like, wanting to use the experience then get paid to do that same activity. I think that, honestly, I think that's how it operated for me. Like, I got to try out being, like, a developer leader before and figure out if I even liked it before I actually, like, did it in a place where they'd have, like, maybe higher barriers to entry. Is that do do you kinda, like, bump into folks where that's, like, a path they're trying to go on as you're doing this thing? I mainly I've been in the volunteer space because, like I mentioned, I'm in in nonprofit management in some capacity for quite a while. And, like, like it or like it or not, the in the volunteer space, it is, like, partially, like, professional development for a lot of people. So that's either, like, a pathway to gainful employment if they don't have it already, or it's, like, continuing, like, professional development in terms of building, like, those leadership skills. Like, you like, as you mentioned, you wouldn't get otherwise because the barrier entry to be a leader code for Chicago is very low because the only requirement that we ask of you is, like, can you contribute, and are you willing to contribute on a on a consistent basis? And, like, our barrier of entry is, like, what? It's a couple hours a week. And so, you know, a lot of problems we have at the brigade, is like senior leadership. And what is senior, I mean, like, people who've done their practice for, like, a bit like, a minute. A lot of times you get people that are newer. And so, like, for me, it's easier to provide support for people that are new. But it's hard to provide support for people who are already seasoned because it's like they're kind of, like, either my experience level or above. And so it is kind of, like, basically a scrappy experience where you kinda have to figure out as you go, or I have to kind of sort like, link you to other resources or people that can probably support you better. Something related to there with that experience is, you probably also have folks that are leaders on projects that you're then kinda, like, leading from that layer above that are they have different skills than you do. Maybe it's, you know, it's a developer while your expertise is more in design or it's someone whose product or, something like that. Is there any other unique challenges to try and to, like, help coach folks that are trying to lead projects in practices that are different from yours? Yeah. That that's a great question. And I'm I'm sure we have the same problem because I did have this problem also in the consult in the for profit consultancy space. It's like scope creep. That's the main issue we run into when we do these types of projects. So, like, for some extra context, like, at Call for Chicago, we do treat it like a nonprofit consultancy. And when we link up with partners, we do a fair amount of, like, discovery at the beginning to identify what's the technical scope of what we're trying to accomplish. And sometimes the problem is the leaders that I end up getting on the project don't start off on the onset. They come up maybe a little further on. I'm lucky if I do get people at the beginning. So, like, part of their onboarding, we I have to set up a lot of documentation ahead of time to kind of detail, like, this is the scope we're trying to accomplish here. And, you know, this is and so a a lot of their contribution has to be, hopefully, around the scope. There are times where I don't do a good job scoping as much as I can. There are things you miss, and, like, inevitably, you find out things throughout the development process, things that you have to resolve anyway. So there's, like, a fine balance between identifying, like, the problem to solve, making sure we're solving it, and then, like, creating, like, additional work as needed. But, like, that that's the biggest challenge really is, like, it's usually the like, I think people are very passionate individuals, and people wanna, like, provide like, contribute. I but I I think a lot of people don't realize how much work it means in the volunteer space. Your mention there about the kind of the idea that sometimes you're bringing in folks kinda midstream is a great segue to the kind of next follow-up question I had in mind, which is about succession. I imagine something that comes off up often in these kind of volunteer leadership roles. What have you learned as you've tried to navigate that challenge? Oh, man. That's so hard. I wish I had a better answer for this. Like because succession could be in, like, a couple of things. Right? On the project level, it could mean someone who is their project manager decides they have to leave for whatever reason, and then we have to identify someone else with a similar skill set to take over for them. And then there are, like, other succession on which, like, at at the leadership level when someone's doing, either things, at you know, like, for example, like, I we have someone who does events. If this person were to leave tomorrow, like, who who's who's in charge of doing events, or do is that something that we have to drop for now? Because it's, it's challenging. And I'm I'm not afraid to admit, like, for especially with the ones where, when it's at the pro project level, I oftentimes will find myself stepping in into that role, mostly because, like, either people on the project currently aren't willing to or don't want to or don't feel like they can. And, oftentimes, I'll try to ask and and see if people do want to do that. But, like, the fact of the matter is, like, project manager project management on a project is, like, integral to, like, a pro bono project because it keeps the ship afloat as much as possible. So, yeah, I don't I don't know if I have a good answer to that because it's it's sort of like we just have to, like, figure out where where the resources are available, who who's willing to, like, step up or change your role. But, again, it goes kinda goes back to that kind of scrappy attitude that we have to adopt, when it comes to approaching the volunteer work. Speaking of those folks that often need to step up into different roles and things, I imagine that the way a volunteer's time is used is, you wanna make sure that's done in a way that they'll feel is, like, valuable and, like, useful and having an impact. Right? And I imagine that an organization's ability to do that well correlates in some way to retention as far as folks wanting to stick around and be involved. What have you seen that has, like, worked or maybe not worked so well there? Yeah. Let's go queue. The things I practice at the brigade are kind of a version of kind of what I've done in the past in other volunteer programs, and I wonder if other people feel like this is to be true. But I I find this very effective. I one at at the at the first level, just making sure your project is somewhat structured and organized. And so those are, like, very basic things, like having a consistent meeting schedule, which does which sounds like very easy thing to do, but it's a very hard thing to practice, because there's because there's no, like, stakes in place. So you don't have to meet if you don't want to. But, like, having meeting a regular meeting cadence, having, like, having distributing work in a way that, people can feel like they can contribute. And so, like, for, like, very junior people, I find that they need to probably need a little bit more direction in terms of what a deliverable looks like. And, like, that just requires me to provide as much, like, documentation as much as possible or, like, having to sit on a call with them one on one to talk them through kind of what I need. But I find that the less abstract tickets, speak, and assign, the easier it could be for people to, like, digest and figure out what is it that they can do. Because really a lot of what a volunteer comes down to is not really, like, how, like, skilled you are while while that really helps. It really comes down to level of effort you're willing to contribute to a project. And that's easier to do, when you have good direction and you feel like shit's, like, shit's in place and organized. I I think something I'm hearing from you there is that there's, like, a challenge in kind of figuring out, like, what level of ambiguity is appropriate for, like, where this person's at in their journey and kinda trying to, like, calibrate that. Is that is that so? Yeah. And and, like, I don't also, like, ambiguity in general, I don't I just don't have control over a lot of things as well. And so I I oftentimes will have a lot of ambiguity that I'm, like, trying to work through too. So I I just depend on other people to collaborate with me to figure out what that how how how can we reduce that ambiguity as much as possible so we have an idea of what we're doing? As mentioned, I I think a couple of times in this conversation already, yeah, Go for Chicago tends to focus on partnering with nonprofits to empower the mission that they've got going on, which honestly, like, something that that sounds great since it I would imagine it raises the probability that the work you're doing will have some sort of actual impact since it's informed by, you know, folks with with experience in the space. On the other hand, though, there's probably some unique challenges, like working directly with an organization like a nonprofit. Can you talk a bit about that experience you've had so far? Yeah. And I I I only can say this because I've also worked in the consultancy space. Some of the problems are very similar. Like, you have stakeholders whom you can't get too technical with, especially at the nonprofit level. If the if the if the organization doesn't have any, like, people that are in tech in any any capacity, and oftentimes, the partnerships that we, partner with, like, they have challenges, like, rerouting their hosting, like, in domain provider, for example. So you have to make sure you can communicate technical details both at not only the dev, but also at the design level in terms of why you're doing something and what you're doing. And then I think it's also, like, a big challenge that we have for nonprofits too because they're not paying for the service is keeping a good level set of expectations in terms of, like, what the output from volunteers could look like. Because, the con contribute the contribution con the the amount that you can give in a in your real job is so much more than you can give in a volunteer capacity. And so, like, progress team's extremely slow because we you can spend a whole year just redesigning a website whereas and for most people in a nine to five, that can for especially a static facing website that's for like, for marketing purposes, it could be done less than a month. Right? But, you know, you're dealing with a lot of volunteers coming in and out. And so, like, you have to, like, set the right expectations when you start a partnership and let them know, like, hey. This is what's probably gonna happen. There's gonna be an influx of volunteers coming in and out. You know, this project will be long. And so, like, that's always hard to let people know because you have to oftentimes, they'll have, like we've had one organization who had board members knocking on the door, like, wondering, like, what what the update with the project was. And I you know, this is was a learning experience for me. I had made a promise for a deliverable on a specific deadline, which is, like, a terrible idea because I don't I don't have control over volunteer's time, and I can never predict how quickly someone can work on something even though, like, in in a past job that I had worked with someone and done it relatively quickly. Just volunteer's time works in its own space time continuum, and you can't ever predict that shit. So you have to be, like, realistic with your expectations. That very much makes sense. I'm actually thinking to myself, you know, I I I work in consulting for for pay to keep the the lights on and this mic working here. And, it's even hard in that situation, to kinda manage expectations. So, like, you know, there's, like, a team of people around me that they're all getting paid forty hours a week to focus on this, and we still, can get guess can guess wrong on how long something is gonna take. So I imagine it's, like, an especially unique challenge when you have kind of folks that are, you know, it's, like, in their free time, and you're not really always sure exactly how much of the time you're gonna get. Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's a it's the clusterfuck sometimes because you're not sure sometimes some people's out sometimes we get that, like, triple a volunteer that that just, like, is hungry and just really wants to contribute and it nails down, and then we lose them. And then we're back to square one with the terms of app the type of app where we can contribute. So it's it's so much it's so hard to predict manage. And, I I gathered from from mister Jordan, you've had at least one experience there where, it ended up causing, like, potentially a little extra stress there. Have you Yeah. Have you kinda tuned how you talk about expectations with these organizations kinda more recently? Yeah. I don't and I don't know if I'm doing this right. I only know how I know how to do it, Ryan. And you know me. I just I just tell them straight up, like, this is what's gonna happen. I don't try to sugarcoat, like, the expectations because I'm just like, look. Like, this is volunteer's time. And I may not wear it exactly like this, but it's like the the tone or, like, the feeling we should get from is like, look. We can do what we do. We wanna contribute and help. And so if you would wanna take on this partnership and this is I'm sorry. This is something I I didn't mention earlier. Like, I also mentioned to them this is, like, a collaborative experience too. This is not just, like, you say this is what we need help with, go do it, and get back to us in, like, six months. This is, like, we have a regular cadence with partners as well, oftentimes twice a month. So, one, provide them updates, but, two, like, give them homework too or things to do. Like, I know for one partner, like, we didn't have anyone on the team that did, like, content design or write copy. So we'll depend on our partners to write that for us because they're they're the ones that know their their the thing the best. And all all I can do as, like, a project manager or design lead is help, curate that ex the the experience or collaborate them and let them know kind of what I feel like we need, and it's a back and forth in terms of figuring out what what that content ends up on the site. But, like, yeah, it's a very collaborative experience. Have you found that all that, so, you know, this is a a pro bon bono model, as I think we we might have mentioned to folks. Have you found that there's ever a struggle where, since they don't have, like, a line item saying, like, the budget where it's like we paid x amount of dollars to build this thing, but that has, like, an impact on engagement, assuming that they aren't, like, really tracking the time cost, which I think is something that's, like, very easy at organizations to overlook. Like, oh, this is a salary person or an hourly person, and they're spending their time on this. But then yeah. Like, do do you ever run into things where, like, maybe they don't see it as they're being a big risk, so there's it's, like, harder to engage with them consistently. Oh, yeah. Sorry. And I I meant to I wrote this I wrote that kind of in my jumble of thoughts before our call. But, yes, that one of the problems is also engagement as well because there isn't. And I don't know what it is. It could probably be potentially be like they don't see the value that they're getting out of because there's nothing really at stake for them. They can dip out anytime they want to. They're we have had issues with some partners. Going back to me mentioning earlier, I had to tell them this is a collaborative experience because sometimes there are partners that aren't as engaged and not it's not because they don't want to. Just oftentimes, the nonprofit space, you have a lot of dedicated and passionate people who just have a lot on their plate. And sometimes, managing, like, their their static facing website or or whatever whatever project that we're working on may not be the highest priority sometimes. Because if you have a fundraiser going on and you're the only person that has to do it, I I bet you that person's gonna contribute most of their time towards that, you know, fundraising drive or whatever event that helps, like, build equity for the for the organization. Something we've maybe mentioned a little bit in these conversations or alluded to is that concept of burnout, which I imagine is something that's on your mind as an organizer of a group like Code for Chicago. Are there things you've tried to do at that organizational level to kinda try to help manage the the impact of it? Man, Ryan, I know you asked a million dollar question. I I wish I wish I had the answers. That's what they pay me the $0 for. Yeah. The zero yeah. The zero pro bono for bono dollars. Yeah. Burnout is yeah. It's it's tricky. Right? The way I try to mitigate that as much as possible for incoming volunteers and what I tell myself at night before I go to sleep is that, like, the contribution that you can contribute should be whatever you can contribute. And that some people just need a number sometimes, and we tell them, like, one to four hours. Because the way we set up our tickets, our ticketing system is that the the amount of contribution you can provide can be done within an hour, on purpose because I don't want people to burn out because I know what that's like to take on and do a lot. And even to the extent of telling people when they wanna do, like, multiple projects upon joining, I I kind of set the right expectations. Like, hey. Let's start with one. And then if you feel like you can ramp up, you you're free to join another one. So, like, I hate to say it this way, but setting some sort of, like yeah. Setting that expectation ahead of time. And then, like, setting reasonable expectations to contribute like, contributing. Like, we we the approach to, like, I feel like works best in a volunteer space is, like, bat baton passing. And so, like, if someone is noodling on a ticket and for whatever reason, it's taking them longer than possible to do it, instead of having them hold on to that ticket for, like, months on end, especially if they know themselves that they have things going on, I always tell them, like, hey. Look. How you know, would it be possible for us to hand this ticket over to someone else? You take a step back or take us a ticket that's a little smaller or less complicated or whatever it is that the issue that they've been having. Or, like, can you see yourself, like, pairing up with another person? And, like so, like yeah. And then just providing, like, necessary guidance for volunteers to to to succeed, and just, like and that could be as simple as, like, telling them, like, hey. Look. If you can't contribute this ticket or if you can't come to Sam, that's totally fine. Like, but it's it's a balance. Right? Because you have to have, like, some type of consistency in the group. And I know there's a lot of people who work in the volunteer space who've dealt with volunteers, like, really disappearing. And so it's a balancing act because, like, on one hand, I have to tell volunteers or I need, like, I need to tell them for their own sake and for our sake too because I don't want them to burn out that, hey. You should really only contribute what you can. But on their hand, there has to be some sort of, like, level of accountability, which can is which is a hard line to tow, because if someone's, like, consistently telling me every meeting, like, hey. I'm working on this, and it's been, like, six months. Like like, those are the hard discussions that you have to have with them. Because you're like, hey. Look. You know, I I get that it's been hard, but, like, this is blocking other people from doing stuff. So, like, you know, as, like, a necessary measure, we might have to reassign it to someone else, or try to work with them in some capacity to get it done. But, yeah, it's it's a hard line to tow. I definitely hear you there. I, actually, I remember back when, we were kinda doing some reorganizing. You had kinda taken on wanting to redo the way we were, like, onboarding folks. In particular, there was kinda, like, the presentation we had that folks would go through. And I remember one of the things that I thought was, really well done that I was excited about seeing is you tried to set up, like, hey. This is probably what you're thinking. You can as as far as the amount of time that you can Yeah. You can put this. And you have these, like, blocks and a calendar as, like, work, and then everything outside of it was, like, code for Chicago time. But then but then you're like, hey. Like, look. Life's a thing, and this is probably what it really looks like. And you put, like, you know, you gotta eat dinner and but you gotta spend time with the family or you gotta, like, wash your clothes. I I always thought that, like, that having that in the presentation was, like, helpful to kinda help folks see, like, what the reality was gonna be like. Right. I've had people, like, give me that similar compliment before because I think, and I don't know if any other people feel this way, but I feel sometimes when we talk about, like, volunteerism, there's kind of like a pie in the sky mentality or like a I don't know. It it's it's there's a, like, an op there's unwarranted optimism sometimes, which I don't know that just cause I'm a pessimist. I I feel like a contrary feeling, but, like, I like to just be realistic kind of, like, what what how we spend our time and what how we can contribute to the world because, like, we've all felt like being 18 or 19 wanna save the world, but as soon as you get into the world, you hear how hard it gets. So I I I like to set that level, like, expectations upfront so people know what they're getting themselves into. Speaking of folks that are out there and maybe wondering about the things they've gotten themselves into, What advice would you give them if they're currently in this moment where maybe they're struggling with feeling a little burnt out, but they still want to have that, like, volunteer impact and they're kinda struggling with that line? Man, another hard question, Ryan. Quit? I don't know. I think and this is something I have to tell myself a lot. It's something I work through in therapy. It's, like, recognize, like, what's your priority in your life? What is it that you like what are the things that are important to you? And I I know that's, like, a hoity, hoity answer, but that's really what it comes down to. Like, how do you wanna spend your time? We all know we have to work in some capacity. Right? We have to make money to pay the bills to help us, like, you know, either support our families or ourselves. But what are the other things that are important to you? You know? And how can you still make those things happen with the time that we're allotted. Right? Because there's only fourteen hours in a day or, I don't know, let maybe less than that for some people when you're not sleeping in terms of how you can spend your time. So I I I tell people volunteers all the time. It's like, if if you feel overwhelmed, like and you feel like you it stop it's blocking you from contributing, like, it's totally okay to leave. Like, if, you know, call for Chicago, you know, knock on wood, it will always kind of be around in some capacity. But if not call for Chicago, another volunteer opportunity where you can do some good shit is out there in the world. And it was still like, people there will always be a sense of altruism and community out there, whether it's at Copeland Chicago or elsewhere. So, like, it's totally okay if you need a break and, like and, you know, as you know, for me, Ryan, like, I've done that a handful of times at Copeland Chicago before I became captain. I've I've I, you know, I've gone on, like, months, like, not contributing. Like, you know, hey. I'm gonna I'm gonna dip out for a little bit and come back. And, you know, and and I've I I've come back personally. I've seen other people do that, and some people don't come back ever. You know, but it really depends on kind of what where people are in their lives. And I I I always try to keep that door open for them if if they wanna come back. Continuing on this theme of getting advice from Joseph, what would you say to someone who is like, say they're just starting out. Right? And they're they're gonna be a leader in a volunteer organization, maybe you want a lot like a Code for America brigade. What advice would you give them as they're, you know, green behind the ears and they're kinda or I I just mixed up, like, two idioms in one thing there. But, anyways, as they're new to the process and they're trying to figure out what's what they're doing. Don't do it. If Ryan tells you a text is DMs you and swag and asking you, I outright say no. No. It might my advice would differ kind of depending on the person. I think, if you're going into a role where there's not an infrastructure like, there's a lot of opportunity to rebuild some infrastructure, if I were to, like, do it over again, I would actually try to especially if you're in the brigade system specifically, like, seek out, like, mentorship or support elsewhere. Like, COBRA Boston, like, for LA, like, you know, COBRA Philly. These are, like, brigades have been standing, been around for a while, and there's a lot to learn from these other organizations. And so I think of the I think if I could do things over again, I would have, like, sought out some solicit some feedback from them first and learn kind of from an operational level how they do. Because you'll find that in the way that the brigade network, manages itself, it's very like, I would it be accurate to say it's kind of federated and that, like, we get a lot of autonomy to do however we want? So you find that one brigade does things very different from another brigade. Like, I I've even disagreed with some things that other brigades do, but that's on them, and this works for us. So, yeah, I would try to, like, get a better understanding of how brigades operate at operate, from a logistical, level. And you'll find that when you do reach out to these brigade leaders, like, they're very open and very, like, passionate about the what they do just like you. And they're very open to, like, talking shop and helping you out, as much as they can. The other advice I would tell someone is, like, keep your output and your contribution manageable. If you decide to go especially in a leadership role, know that, if you are also going on projects is is it's also another thing. Like, managing a brigade and being on a project are oftentimes not intertwined because one part you have to do a lot of the, like, recruitment to, like, fun like, to, like, manage the projects, the orientation, the the sneaky things that come up, like, having to submit, like, like, quarterly reports to Code for America. Those things can come up. So recognize that that's a love different level of output from contribute to a project. And don't do what I do is, like, be on, like, several different projects at once because that's how you can easily burn out. Like, it's deceptive, especially when you're on a project and things are very slow that you can do multiple at the same time. But I I would keep you I would temper your expectations. It's just start small first and then gradually, like, increase your output as you have a better sense of how what what the lay of the land is. Joseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. I I have no doubt folks are gonna listen to, what you shared and have some interesting stuff to think about in in their day to reflect on. Yeah. I I hope listeners, you got something from this. Even through my I don't know's or I'm not sure, so I hope I hope this was helpful. This was fun, Ryan. Thank you for having me. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. 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I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.\n\nThere will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show.\n\nJoseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Well, Well, thank first of all, thanks for having me, Ryan. My name is Joseph Taharan. A little context, I actually started, my career in the nonprofit space, specifically in case management and program management. But nowadays, I in my day job, I'm a new product designer.\n\nAnd outside of that, I do a lot of freelance design in addition to, operating as the brigade co captain for COVID Chicago, which is, of course, Code for America Brigade based in Chicago. And that's actually how I met you, Ryan.\n\nSpeaker 0: That is true. Yeah. Joseph, you and I got to work quite closely at Code for Chicago, and folks listening probably don't know that this interview is, what, like, two years in the in in the making. So there's a lot of a lot of hype in my brain for this conversation we're about to have.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I remember Ryan mentioning when I first met him, those actually, I I've known you 2018, I think. 2018, 2019. And, like like, I remember Ryan mentioned a podcast in, and I was like, oh, when is he gonna have me on board? What am I gonna talk about?\n\nSo now I have something to talk about. But, yeah, we've spent a lot of, like, late nights working together.\n\nSpeaker 0: And, Joseph, what would you say is your personal why, the thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do? Or in that prior example, stay up real late working on stuff.\n\nSpeaker 1: You know, Ryan, I've listened to your podcast, and you asked this question a lot. And I I kinda wanna ask myself that question sometimes too. What is my personal why? So to answer the question, I don't know, which is I don't know what responses people have given on your podcast. Because I find that, I I guess I could, like there are obviously altruistic reasons for what I do.\n\nI I wanna, like, you know, help the world in any small way that I can. But I'm also like and I don't mind admitting this. I'm, like, somewhat selfish. I'm very interested in solving really complex problems. And so when I see something that seems challenging or something that I feel like can be resolved within my means, like, I'm very motivated to to go do it.\n\nSo that's kind of like a twofold answer to that. But I'm I'm I feel like the older I get, the less I know about myself, contrary to what I I feel like I should be doing.\n\nSpeaker 0: You you mentioned knowing about this podcast, the one the one you're on.\n\nSpeaker 1: But Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 0: Are there other videos, books, podcasts, or other media that you'd recommend to folks out there that are listening in right now?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I'm, shameless plug, but I also am a organizer for, like, a a a small book club over in Chicago, UX book club, go to meetup.com. And we read a good amount we read, like, good UX books every month. And the two that come to mind right now that I need to I've been thinking about going back into is, one book is called The Conscious Creative by Kelly Small. The book is about, like, how you can, like, try to contribute good good good work in this world, but also still, like, profit off of it and not be ashamed about making money doing good things.\n\nAnd another one by Sasha Cassandra Chuck, design justice. No. This has been, like, shared a lot in, like, design circles like mine. And it's something that I have to think I have to kinda go back and read again. And a lot of it deals with, like, community organizing in the design space and working with, you know, on the ground partners who are actually doing the work and making design making sure design is an equitable process for everybody involved.\n\nSpeaker 0: So as we talked about at the beginning, you've been at Code for Chicago for a minute, and you've been leading it for a while also. Why did you wanna get involved in and become a leader of an organization like that one?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, man, Ryan. I\n\nSpeaker 0: It's okay if it's just the pure force of my charisma. That's\n\nSpeaker 1: I know. It it really that's partially the answer. Ryan basically asked, like, are you interested? And I was like, I don't know. Get back to me in a month.\n\nLet me see how I feel. But, there has to be some reason, and I think that goes back into, like, my why. Like, I think what we do at Code for Chicago does two things for me. One, it knows I'm, like, contributing and doing some good work in the world. And the volunteer space provides a lot of autonomy.\n\nWhen you it turns out when you don't attach a monetary incentive to stuff, it it opens up a lot of avenues. Obviously, it has a lot of, challenges as well when you're not getting paid to do work, but it provides a lot of freedom, that isn't like, if you worked in the consultancy or the agency space, that that provides you sometimes. So I I do enjoy doing that and, like, seeing something built up, and building that thing. I think it's kind of an amazing idea. I don't know.\n\nI find that very interesting to me personally. So\n\nSpeaker 0: In the prep conversation we had as we were getting ready for this interview, we talked a bit about the concepts of sustainable organizations. What what does that mean to you?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I when I think about sustainable organizations, especially in the context in at Cofer Chicago where everyone's not paid to be there, sustainable to me means people don't burn out and the work doesn't get done. Right? So to me yeah. To be sustainable means people are able to contribute at a healthy and regular pace that makes sense for them in a volunteer role.\n\nSpeaker 0: As one seeks to do that, something that's probably difficult is trying to keep a handle on practice leadership or, like, the areas that folks are good at, whether we're talking about, like, developers, designers, folks that are doing, like, social science type stuff, among other potential disciplines.\n\nSpeaker 1: How\n\nSpeaker 0: do you all handle guiding and supporting volunteer leaders in these sorts of, areas of expertise?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. That's a great question. First off, if anyone has any advice, I'm super open to it because this is this is hard. Because, like, in a in actual workspace, I feel like there's more of incentive and more you have more resources to create those mechanisms to provide that type of support I think people need. And the volunteer space is kind of like a tick which you can get sort of thing.\n\nAnd, admittedly, like, we could do a better job providing support to, like, practice leadership to getting them to the point, where they feel unable to do what they can do. So to answer your your question, like, I think our strategy has been, like, identifying people who are who have, like, some investment in what we do, and usually that's based on, like, contribution. And so when I noticed people, like, wanna contribute and are active contributors in in some sort of way, whatever that criteria is in my mind. I I try to seek those people out, because those people, like, are more likely to put in the time that required in order to be, like, a practice leader. And, like, basically, it's it's it comes up to a couple things, and there's no real science to it.\n\nIt's like, one, giving them space and asking them, like, what is it that you need from us to make sure you do really well. And in some cases, like, I have, like, network outside of the brigade within my own professional network, connect them to, like, a mentor or someone else who could provide them that type of support. And so that's because a lot of the times, like, if it's a dev or project manager or whatever, like, I I I I that's not within my practice because I'm a designer, so usually seeking out those resources elsewhere. And if, like, if I can't find anyone, I just usually start asking around to find out what what is that we can do. So it's a very scrappy approach to it, and I don't know if that's always the best one the approach, this specific problem we're facing.\n\nSpeaker 0: Something that occurs to me there as I reflect while while while I'm listening to your answer there is, I imagine for a lot of folks, it's also this kinda, like, weird gateway into the idea of, like, being a leader in a practice. You and potentially, like, wanting to use the experience then get paid to do that same activity. I think that, honestly, I think that's how it operated for me. Like, I got to try out being, like, a developer leader before and figure out if I even liked it before I actually, like, did it in a place where they'd have, like, maybe higher barriers to entry. Is that do do you kinda, like, bump into folks where that's, like, a path they're trying to go on as you're doing this thing?\n\nSpeaker 1: I mainly I've been in the volunteer space because, like I mentioned, I'm in in nonprofit management in some capacity for quite a while. And, like, like it or like it or not, the in the volunteer space, it is, like, partially, like, professional development for a lot of people. So that's either, like, a pathway to gainful employment if they don't have it already, or it's, like, continuing, like, professional development in terms of building, like, those leadership skills. Like, you like, as you mentioned, you wouldn't get otherwise because the barrier entry to be a leader code for Chicago is very low because the only requirement that we ask of you is, like, can you contribute, and are you willing to contribute on a on a consistent basis? And, like, our barrier of entry is, like, what?\n\nIt's a couple hours a week. And so, you know, a lot of problems we have at the brigade, is like senior leadership. And what is senior, I mean, like, people who've done their practice for, like, a bit like, a minute. A lot of times you get people that are newer. And so, like, for me, it's easier to provide support for people that are new.\n\nBut it's hard to provide support for people who are already seasoned because it's like they're kind of, like, either my experience level or above. And so it is kind of, like, basically a scrappy experience where you kinda have to figure out as you go, or I have to kind of sort like, link you to other resources or people that can probably support you better.\n\nSpeaker 0: Something related to there with that experience is, you probably also have folks that are leaders on projects that you're then kinda, like, leading from that layer above that are they have different skills than you do. Maybe it's, you know, it's a developer while your expertise is more in design or it's someone whose product or, something like that. Is there any other unique challenges to try and to, like, help coach folks that are trying to lead projects in practices that are different from\n\nSpeaker 1: yours? Yeah. That that's a great question. And I'm I'm sure we have the same problem because I did have this problem also in the consult in the for profit consultancy space. It's like scope creep.\n\nThat's the main issue we run into when we do these types of projects. So, like, for some extra context, like, at Call for Chicago, we do treat it like a nonprofit consultancy. And when we link up with partners, we do a fair amount of, like, discovery at the beginning to identify what's the technical scope of what we're trying to accomplish. And sometimes the problem is the leaders that I end up getting on the project don't start off on the onset. They come up maybe a little further on.\n\nI'm lucky if I do get people at the beginning. So, like, part of their onboarding, we I have to set up a lot of documentation ahead of time to kind of detail, like, this is the scope we're trying to accomplish here. And, you know, this is and so a a lot of their contribution has to be, hopefully, around the scope. There are times where I don't do a good job scoping as much as I can. There are things you miss, and, like, inevitably, you find out things throughout the development process, things that you have to resolve anyway.\n\nSo there's, like, a fine balance between identifying, like, the problem to solve, making sure we're solving it, and then, like, creating, like, additional work as needed. But, like, that that's the biggest challenge really is, like, it's usually the like, I think people are very passionate individuals, and people wanna, like, provide like, contribute. I but I I think a lot of people don't realize how much work it means in the volunteer space.\n\nSpeaker 0: Your mention there about the kind of the idea that sometimes you're bringing in folks kinda midstream is a great segue to the kind of next follow-up question I had in mind, which is about succession. I imagine something that comes off up often in these kind of volunteer leadership roles. What have you learned as you've tried to navigate that challenge?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, man. That's so hard. I wish I had a better answer for this. Like because succession could be in, like, a couple of things. Right?\n\nOn the project level, it could mean someone who is their project manager decides they have to leave for whatever reason, and then we have to identify someone else with a similar skill set to take over for them. And then there are, like, other succession on which, like, at at the leadership level when someone's doing, either things, at you know, like, for example, like, I we have someone who does events. If this person were to leave tomorrow, like, who who's who's in charge of doing events, or do is that something that we have to drop for now? Because it's, it's challenging. And I'm I'm not afraid to admit, like, for especially with the ones where, when it's at the pro project level, I oftentimes will find myself stepping in into that role, mostly because, like, either people on the project currently aren't willing to or don't want to or don't feel like they can.\n\nAnd, oftentimes, I'll try to ask and and see if people do want to do that. But, like, the fact of the matter is, like, project manager project management on a project is, like, integral to, like, a pro bono project because it keeps the ship afloat as much as possible. So, yeah, I don't I don't know if I have a good answer to that because it's it's sort of like we just have to, like, figure out where where the resources are available, who who's willing to, like, step up or change your role. But, again, it goes kinda goes back to that kind of scrappy attitude that we have to adopt, when it comes to approaching the volunteer work.\n\nSpeaker 0: Speaking of those folks that often need to step up into different roles and things, I imagine that the way a volunteer's time is used is, you wanna make sure that's done in a way that they'll feel is, like, valuable and, like, useful and having an impact. Right? And I imagine that an organization's ability to do that well correlates in some way to retention as far as folks wanting to stick around and be involved. What have you seen that has, like, worked or maybe not worked so well there?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Let's go queue. The things I practice at the brigade are kind of a version of kind of what I've done in the past in other volunteer programs, and I wonder if other people feel like this is to be true. But I I find this very effective. I one at at the at the first level, just making sure your project is somewhat structured and organized.\n\nAnd so those are, like, very basic things, like having a consistent meeting schedule, which does which sounds like very easy thing to do, but it's a very hard thing to practice, because there's because there's no, like, stakes in place. So you don't have to meet if you don't want to. But, like, having meeting a regular meeting cadence, having, like, having distributing work in a way that, people can feel like they can contribute. And so, like, for, like, very junior people, I find that they need to probably need a little bit more direction in terms of what a deliverable looks like. And, like, that just requires me to provide as much, like, documentation as much as possible or, like, having to sit on a call with them one on one to talk them through kind of what I need.\n\nBut I find that the less abstract tickets, speak, and assign, the easier it could be for people to, like, digest and figure out what is it that they can do. Because really a lot of what a volunteer comes down to is not really, like, how, like, skilled you are while while that really helps. It really comes down to level of effort you're willing to contribute to a project. And that's easier to do, when you have good direction and you feel like shit's, like, shit's in place and organized.\n\nSpeaker 0: I I think something I'm hearing from you there is that there's, like, a challenge in kind of figuring out, like, what level of ambiguity is appropriate for, like, where this person's at in their journey and kinda trying to, like, calibrate that. Is that is that so?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And and, like, I don't also, like, ambiguity in general, I don't I just don't have control over a lot of things as well. And so I I oftentimes will have a lot of ambiguity that I'm, like, trying to work through too. So I I just depend on other people to collaborate with me to figure out what that how how how can we reduce that ambiguity as much as possible so we have an idea of what we're doing?\n\nSpeaker 0: As mentioned, I I think a couple of times in this conversation already, yeah, Go for Chicago tends to focus on partnering with nonprofits to empower the mission that they've got going on, which honestly, like, something that that sounds great since it I would imagine it raises the probability that the work you're doing will have some sort of actual impact since it's informed by, you know, folks with with experience in the space. On the other hand, though, there's probably some unique challenges, like working directly with an organization like a nonprofit. Can you talk a bit about that experience you've had so far?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And I I I only can say this because I've also worked in the consultancy space. Some of the problems are very similar. Like, you have stakeholders whom you can't get too technical with, especially at the nonprofit level. If the if the if the organization doesn't have any, like, people that are in tech in any any capacity, and oftentimes, the partnerships that we, partner with, like, they have challenges, like, rerouting their hosting, like, in domain provider, for example.\n\nSo you have to make sure you can communicate technical details both at not only the dev, but also at the design level in terms of why you're doing something and what you're doing. And then I think it's also, like, a big challenge that we have for nonprofits too because they're not paying for the service is keeping a good level set of expectations in terms of, like, what the output from volunteers could look like. Because, the con contribute the contribution con the the amount that you can give in a in your real job is so much more than you can give in a volunteer capacity. And so, like, progress team's extremely slow because we you can spend a whole year just redesigning a website whereas and for most people in a nine to five, that can for especially a static facing website that's for like, for marketing purposes, it could be done less than a month. Right?\n\nBut, you know, you're dealing with a lot of volunteers coming in and out. And so, like, you have to, like, set the right expectations when you start a partnership and let them know, like, hey. This is what's probably gonna happen. There's gonna be an influx of volunteers coming in and out. You know, this project will be long.\n\nAnd so, like, that's always hard to let people know because you have to oftentimes, they'll have, like we've had one organization who had board members knocking on the door, like, wondering, like, what what the update with the project was. And I you know, this is was a learning experience for me. I had made a promise for a deliverable on a specific deadline, which is, like, a terrible idea because I don't I don't have control over volunteer's time, and I can never predict how quickly someone can work on something even though, like, in in a past job that I had worked with someone and done it relatively quickly. Just volunteer's time works in its own space time continuum, and you can't ever predict that shit. So you have to be, like, realistic with your expectations.\n\nSpeaker 0: That very much makes sense. I'm actually thinking to myself, you know, I I I work in consulting for for pay to keep the the lights on and this mic working here. And, it's even hard in that situation, to kinda manage expectations. So, like, you know, there's, like, a team of people around me that they're all getting paid forty hours a week to focus on this, and we still, can get guess can guess wrong on how long something is gonna take. So I imagine it's, like, an especially unique challenge when you have kind of folks that are, you know, it's, like, in their free time, and you're not really always sure exactly how much of the time you're gonna get.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's a it's the clusterfuck sometimes because you're not sure sometimes some people's out sometimes we get that, like, triple a volunteer that that just, like, is hungry and just really wants to contribute and it nails down, and then we lose them. And then we're back to square one with the terms of app the type of app where we can contribute. So it's it's so much it's so hard to predict manage.\n\nSpeaker 0: And, I I gathered from from mister Jordan, you've had at least one experience there where, it ended up causing, like, potentially a little extra stress there. Have you Yeah. Have you kinda tuned how you talk about expectations with these organizations kinda more recently?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I don't and I don't know if I'm doing this right. I only know how I know how to do it, Ryan. And you know me. I just I just tell them straight up, like, this is what's gonna happen.\n\nI don't try to sugarcoat, like, the expectations because I'm just like, look. Like, this is volunteer's time. And I may not wear it exactly like this, but it's like the the tone or, like, the feeling we should get from is like, look. We can do what we do. We wanna contribute and help.\n\nAnd so if you would wanna take on this partnership and this is I'm sorry. This is something I I didn't mention earlier. Like, I also mentioned to them this is, like, a collaborative experience too. This is not just, like, you say this is what we need help with, go do it, and get back to us in, like, six months. This is, like, we have a regular cadence with partners as well, oftentimes twice a month.\n\nSo, one, provide them updates, but, two, like, give them homework too or things to do. Like, I know for one partner, like, we didn't have anyone on the team that did, like, content design or write copy. So we'll depend on our partners to write that for us because they're they're the ones that know their their the thing the best. And all all I can do as, like, a project manager or design lead is help, curate that ex the the experience or collaborate them and let them know kind of what I feel like we need, and it's a back and forth in terms of figuring out what what that content ends up on the site. But, like, yeah, it's a very collaborative experience.\n\nSpeaker 0: Have you found that all that, so, you know, this is a a pro bon bono model, as I think we we might have mentioned to folks. Have you found that there's ever a struggle where, since they don't have, like, a line item saying, like, the budget where it's like we paid x amount of dollars to build this thing, but that has, like, an impact on engagement, assuming that they aren't, like, really tracking the time cost, which I think is something that's, like, very easy at organizations to overlook. Like, oh, this is a salary person or an hourly person, and they're spending their time on this. But then yeah. Like, do do you ever run into things where, like, maybe they don't see it as they're being a big risk, so there's it's, like, harder to engage with them consistently.\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, yeah. Sorry. And I I meant to I wrote this I wrote that kind of in my jumble of thoughts before our call. But, yes, that one of the problems is also engagement as well because there isn't. And I don't know what it is.\n\nIt could probably be potentially be like they don't see the value that they're getting out of because there's nothing really at stake for them. They can dip out anytime they want to. They're we have had issues with some partners. Going back to me mentioning earlier, I had to tell them this is a collaborative experience because sometimes there are partners that aren't as engaged and not it's not because they don't want to. Just oftentimes, the nonprofit space, you have a lot of dedicated and passionate people who just have a lot on their plate.\n\nAnd sometimes, managing, like, their their static facing website or or whatever whatever project that we're working on may not be the highest priority sometimes. Because if you have a fundraiser going on and you're the only person that has to do it, I I bet you that person's gonna contribute most of their time towards that, you know, fundraising drive or whatever event that helps, like, build equity for the for the organization.\n\nSpeaker 0: Something we've maybe mentioned a little bit in these conversations or alluded to is that concept of burnout, which I imagine is something that's on your mind as an organizer of a group like Code for Chicago. Are there things you've tried to do at that organizational level to kinda try to help manage the the impact of it?\n\nSpeaker 1: Man, Ryan, I know you asked a million dollar question. I I wish I wish I had the answers.\n\nSpeaker 0: That's what they pay me the $0 for.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. The zero yeah. The zero pro bono for bono dollars. Yeah. Burnout is yeah.\n\nIt's it's tricky. Right? The way I try to mitigate that as much as possible for incoming volunteers and what I tell myself at night before I go to sleep is that, like, the contribution that you can contribute should be whatever you can contribute. And that some people just need a number sometimes, and we tell them, like, one to four hours. Because the way we set up our tickets, our ticketing system is that the the amount of contribution you can provide can be done within an hour, on purpose because I don't want people to burn out because I know what that's like to take on and do a lot.\n\nAnd even to the extent of telling people when they wanna do, like, multiple projects upon joining, I I kind of set the right expectations. Like, hey. Let's start with one. And then if you feel like you can ramp up, you you're free to join another one. So, like, I hate to say it this way, but setting some sort of, like yeah.\n\nSetting that expectation ahead of time. And then, like, setting reasonable expectations to contribute like, contributing. Like, we we the approach to, like, I feel like works best in a volunteer space is, like, bat baton passing. And so, like, if someone is noodling on a ticket and for whatever reason, it's taking them longer than possible to do it, instead of having them hold on to that ticket for, like, months on end, especially if they know themselves that they have things going on, I always tell them, like, hey. Look.\n\nHow you know, would it be possible for us to hand this ticket over to someone else? You take a step back or take us a ticket that's a little smaller or less complicated or whatever it is that the issue that they've been having. Or, like, can you see yourself, like, pairing up with another person? And, like so, like yeah. And then just providing, like, necessary guidance for volunteers to to to succeed, and just, like and that could be as simple as, like, telling them, like, hey.\n\nLook. If you can't contribute this ticket or if you can't come to Sam, that's totally fine. Like, but it's it's a balance. Right? Because you have to have, like, some type of consistency in the group.\n\nAnd I know there's a lot of people who work in the volunteer space who've dealt with volunteers, like, really disappearing. And so it's a balancing act because, like, on one hand, I have to tell volunteers or I need, like, I need to tell them for their own sake and for our sake too because I don't want them to burn out that, hey. You should really only contribute what you can. But on their hand, there has to be some sort of, like, level of accountability, which can is which is a hard line to tow, because if someone's, like, consistently telling me every meeting, like, hey. I'm working on this, and it's been, like, six months.\n\nLike like, those are the hard discussions that you have to have with them. Because you're like, hey. Look. You know, I I get that it's been hard, but, like, this is blocking other people from doing stuff. So, like, you know, as, like, a necessary measure, we might have to reassign it to someone else, or try to work with them in some capacity to get it done.\n\nBut, yeah, it's it's a hard line to tow.\n\nSpeaker 0: I definitely hear you there. I, actually, I remember back when, we were kinda doing some reorganizing. You had kinda taken on wanting to redo the way we were, like, onboarding folks. In particular, there was kinda, like, the presentation we had that folks would go through. And I remember one of the things that I thought was, really well done that I was excited about seeing is you tried to set up, like, hey.\n\nThis is probably what you're thinking. You can as as far as the amount of time that you can Yeah. You can put this. And you have these, like, blocks and a calendar as, like, work, and then everything outside of it was, like, code for Chicago time. But then but then you're like, hey.\n\nLike, look. Life's a thing, and this is probably what it really looks like. And you put, like, you know, you gotta eat dinner and but you gotta spend time with the family or you gotta, like, wash your clothes. I I always thought that, like, that having that in the presentation was, like, helpful to kinda help folks see, like, what the reality was gonna be like.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. I've had people, like, give me that similar compliment before because I think, and I don't know if any other people feel this way, but I feel sometimes when we talk about, like, volunteerism, there's kind of like a pie in the sky mentality or like a I don't know. It it's it's there's a, like, an op there's unwarranted optimism sometimes, which I don't know that just cause I'm a pessimist. I I feel like a contrary feeling, but, like, I like to just be realistic kind of, like, what what how we spend our time and what how we can contribute to the world because, like, we've all felt like being 18 or 19 wanna save the world, but as soon as you get into the world, you hear how hard it gets. So I I I like to set that level, like, expectations upfront so people know what they're getting themselves into.\n\nSpeaker 0: Speaking of folks that are out there and maybe wondering about the things they've gotten themselves into, What advice would you give them if they're currently in this moment where maybe they're struggling with feeling a little burnt out, but they still want to have that, like, volunteer impact and they're kinda struggling with that line?\n\nSpeaker 1: Man, another hard question, Ryan. Quit? I don't know. I think and this is something I have to tell myself a lot. It's something I work through in therapy.\n\nIt's, like, recognize, like, what's your priority in your life? What is it that you like what are the things that are important to you? And I I know that's, like, a hoity, hoity answer, but that's really what it comes down to. Like, how do you wanna spend your time? We all know we have to work in some capacity.\n\nRight? We have to make money to pay the bills to help us, like, you know, either support our families or ourselves. But what are the other things that are important to you? You know? And how can you still make those things happen with the time that we're allotted.\n\nRight? Because there's only fourteen hours in a day or, I don't know, let maybe less than that for some people when you're not sleeping in terms of how you can spend your time. So I I I tell people volunteers all the time. It's like, if if you feel overwhelmed, like and you feel like you it stop it's blocking you from contributing, like, it's totally okay to leave. Like, if, you know, call for Chicago, you know, knock on wood, it will always kind of be around in some capacity.\n\nBut if not call for Chicago, another volunteer opportunity where you can do some good shit is out there in the world. And it was still like, people there will always be a sense of altruism and community out there, whether it's at Copeland Chicago or elsewhere. So, like, it's totally okay if you need a break and, like and, you know, as you know, for me, Ryan, like, I've done that a handful of times at Copeland Chicago before I became captain. I've I've I, you know, I've gone on, like, months, like, not contributing. Like, you know, hey.\n\nI'm gonna I'm gonna dip out for a little bit and come back. And, you know, and and I've I I've come back personally. I've seen other people do that, and some people don't come back ever. You know, but it really depends on kind of what where people are in their lives. And I I I always try to keep that door open for them if if they wanna come back.\n\nSpeaker 0: Continuing on this theme of getting advice from Joseph, what would you say to someone who is like, say they're just starting out. Right? And they're they're gonna be a leader in a volunteer organization, maybe you want a lot like a Code for America brigade. What advice would you give them as they're, you know, green behind the ears and they're kinda or I I just mixed up, like, two idioms in one thing there. But, anyways, as they're new to the process and they're trying to figure out what's what they're doing.\n\nSpeaker 1: Don't do it. If Ryan tells you a text is DMs you and swag and asking you, I outright say no. No. It might my advice would differ kind of depending on the person. I think, if you're going into a role where there's not an infrastructure like, there's a lot of opportunity to rebuild some infrastructure, if I were to, like, do it over again, I would actually try to especially if you're in the brigade system specifically, like, seek out, like, mentorship or support elsewhere.\n\nLike, COBRA Boston, like, for LA, like, you know, COBRA Philly. These are, like, brigades have been standing, been around for a while, and there's a lot to learn from these other organizations. And so I think of the I think if I could do things over again, I would have, like, sought out some solicit some feedback from them first and learn kind of from an operational level how they do. Because you'll find that in the way that the brigade network, manages itself, it's very like, I would it be accurate to say it's kind of federated and that, like, we get a lot of autonomy to do however we want? So you find that one brigade does things very different from another brigade.\n\nLike, I I've even disagreed with some things that other brigades do, but that's on them, and this works for us. So, yeah, I would try to, like, get a better understanding of how brigades operate at operate, from a logistical, level. And you'll find that when you do reach out to these brigade leaders, like, they're very open and very, like, passionate about the what they do just like you. And they're very open to, like, talking shop and helping you out, as much as they can. The other advice I would tell someone is, like, keep your output and your contribution manageable.\n\nIf you decide to go especially in a leadership role, know that, if you are also going on projects is is it's also another thing. Like, managing a brigade and being on a project are oftentimes not intertwined because one part you have to do a lot of the, like, recruitment to, like, fun like, to, like, manage the projects, the orientation, the the sneaky things that come up, like, having to submit, like, like, quarterly reports to Code for America. Those things can come up. So recognize that that's a love different level of output from contribute to a project. And don't do what I do is, like, be on, like, several different projects at once because that's how you can easily burn out.\n\nLike, it's deceptive, especially when you're on a project and things are very slow that you can do multiple at the same time. But I I would keep you I would temper your expectations. It's just start small first and then gradually, like, increase your output as you have a better sense of how what what the lay of the land is.\n\nSpeaker 0: Joseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. I I have no doubt folks are gonna listen to, what you shared and have some interesting stuff to think about in in their day to reflect on.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I I hope listeners, you got something from this. Even through my I don't know's or I'm not sure, so I hope I hope this was helpful. This was fun, Ryan. Thank you for having me.\n\nSpeaker 0: You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.24, "end": 0.74 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us.", "start": 0.88, "end": 9.62 }, { "text": "The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society.", "start": 9.84, "end": 16.605 }, { "text": "We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more.", "start": 17.305, "end": 21.244999 }, { "text": "Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.", "start": 21.545, "end": 26.925 } ], "start": 0.24, "end": 26.925, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description.", "start": 27.39, "end": 30.93 }, { "text": "Do feel free to go check that out.", "start": 31.31, "end": 33.17 }, { "text": "It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it.", "start": 33.23, "end": 35.629997 }, { "text": "It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech.", "start": 35.629997, "end": 43.135002 }, { "text": "Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show.", "start": 43.135002, "end": 45.875 } ], "start": 27.39, "end": 45.875, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Joseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 47.935, "end": 51.715 }, { "text": "Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?", "start": 51.855003, "end": 55.235 } ], "start": 47.935, "end": 55.235, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 55.535, "end": 56.015 }, { "text": "Well, Well, thank first of all, thanks for having me, Ryan.", "start": 56.015, "end": 58.300003 }, { "text": "My name is Joseph Taharan.", "start": 58.54, "end": 59.920002 }, { "text": "A little context, I actually started, my career in the nonprofit space, specifically in case management and program management.", "start": 60.780003, "end": 67.68 }, { "text": "But nowadays, I in my day job, I'm a new product designer.", "start": 68.675, "end": 72.215004 } ], "start": 55.535, "end": 72.215004, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And outside of that, I do a lot of freelance design in addition to, operating as the brigade co captain for COVID Chicago, which is, of course, Code for America Brigade based in Chicago.", "start": 72.595, "end": 83.12 }, { "text": "And that's actually how I met you, Ryan.", "start": 83.340004, "end": 85.28 } ], "start": 72.595, "end": 85.28, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That is true.", "start": 85.82, "end": 86.54 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 86.54, "end": 86.78 }, { "text": "Joseph, you and I got to work quite closely at Code for Chicago, and folks listening probably don't know that this interview is, what, like, two years in the in in the making.", "start": 86.78, "end": 95.715004 }, { "text": "So there's a lot of a lot of hype in my brain for this conversation we're about to have.", "start": 95.715004, "end": 100.135 } ], "start": 85.82, "end": 100.135, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 100.275, "end": 100.595 }, { "text": "I remember Ryan mentioning when I first met him, those actually, I I've known you 2018, I think.", "start": 100.595, "end": 107.65 }, { "text": "2018, 2019.", "start": 107.65, "end": 108.93 }, { "text": "And, like like, I remember Ryan mentioned a podcast in, and I was like, oh, when is he gonna have me on board?", "start": 108.93, "end": 114.29 }, { "text": "What am I gonna talk about?", "start": 114.29, "end": 115.41 } ], "start": 100.275, "end": 115.41, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So now I have something to talk about.", "start": 115.41, "end": 117.35 }, { "text": "But, yeah, we've spent a lot of, like, late nights working together.", "start": 117.41, "end": 120.07 } ], "start": 115.41, "end": 120.07, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, Joseph, what would you say is your personal why, the thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do?", "start": 121.185, "end": 127.98499 }, { "text": "Or in that prior example, stay up real late working on stuff.", "start": 127.98499, "end": 131.605 } ], "start": 121.185, "end": 131.605, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, Ryan, I've listened to your podcast, and you asked this question a lot.", "start": 132.14499, "end": 136.23 }, { "text": "And I I kinda wanna ask myself that question sometimes too.", "start": 136.61, "end": 139.73 }, { "text": "What is my personal why?", "start": 139.73, "end": 141.27 }, { "text": "So to answer the question, I don't know, which is I don't know what responses people have given on your podcast.", "start": 141.41, "end": 148.39 }, { "text": "Because I find that, I I guess I could, like there are obviously altruistic reasons for what I do.", "start": 149.575, "end": 155.095 } ], "start": 132.14499, "end": 155.095, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I wanna, like, you know, help the world in any small way that I can.", "start": 155.095, "end": 160.235 }, { "text": "But I'm also like and I don't mind admitting this.", "start": 160.69499, "end": 162.775 }, { "text": "I'm, like, somewhat selfish.", "start": 162.775, "end": 163.895 }, { "text": "I'm very interested in solving really complex problems.", "start": 163.895, "end": 166.73 }, { "text": "And so when I see something that seems challenging or something that I feel like can be resolved within my means, like, I'm very motivated to to go do it.", "start": 166.79, "end": 176.01 } ], "start": 155.095, "end": 176.01, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's kind of like a twofold answer to that.", "start": 176.95, "end": 180.41501 }, { "text": "But I'm I'm I feel like the older I get, the less I know about myself, contrary to what I I feel like I should be doing.", "start": 180.41501, "end": 186.675 } ], "start": 176.95, "end": 186.675, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You you mentioned knowing about this podcast, the one the one you're on.", "start": 187.615, "end": 190.255 } ], "start": 187.615, "end": 190.255, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But Yeah.", "start": 190.255, "end": 190.85501 } ], "start": 190.255, "end": 190.85501, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Are there other videos, books, podcasts, or other media that you'd recommend to folks out there that are listening in right now?", "start": 191.05501, "end": 199.29001 } ], "start": 191.05501, "end": 199.29001, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 199.99, "end": 200.47 }, { "text": "I'm, shameless plug, but I also am a organizer for, like, a a a small book club over in Chicago, UX book club, go to meetup.com.", "start": 200.71, "end": 209.535 }, { "text": "And we read a good amount we read, like, good UX books every month.", "start": 209.695, "end": 212.815 }, { "text": "And the two that come to mind right now that I need to I've been thinking about going back into is, one book is called The Conscious Creative by Kelly Small.", "start": 212.815, "end": 221.075 }, { "text": "The book is about, like, how you can, like, try to contribute good good good work in this world, but also still, like, profit off of it and not be ashamed about making money doing good things.", "start": 221.295, "end": 230.96 } ], "start": 199.99, "end": 230.96, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And another one by Sasha Cassandra Chuck, design justice.", "start": 231.66, "end": 234.96 }, { "text": "No.", "start": 235.18001, "end": 235.42 }, { "text": "This has been, like, shared a lot in, like, design circles like mine.", "start": 235.42, "end": 238.955 }, { "text": "And it's something that I have to think I have to kinda go back and read again.", "start": 239.33499, "end": 242.875 }, { "text": "And a lot of it deals with, like, community organizing in the design space and working with, you know, on the ground partners who are actually doing the work and making design making sure design is an equitable process for everybody involved.", "start": 243.655, "end": 257.08 } ], "start": 231.66, "end": 257.08, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So as we talked about at the beginning, you've been at Code for Chicago for a minute, and you've been leading it for a while also.", "start": 258.02, "end": 264.915 }, { "text": "Why did you wanna get involved in and become a leader of an organization like that one?", "start": 265.39502, "end": 270.695 } ], "start": 258.02, "end": 270.695, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, man, Ryan.", "start": 271.075, "end": 271.95502 }, { "text": "I", "start": 271.95502, "end": 272.11502 } ], "start": 271.075, "end": 272.11502, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's okay if it's just the pure force of my charisma.", "start": 273.155, "end": 275.555 }, { "text": "That's", "start": 275.555, "end": 275.715 } ], "start": 273.155, "end": 275.715, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I know.", "start": 275.795, "end": 276.195 }, { "text": "It it really that's partially the answer.", "start": 276.195, "end": 278.995 }, { "text": "Ryan basically asked, like, are you interested?", "start": 278.995, "end": 281.19 }, { "text": "And I was like, I don't know.", "start": 282.13, "end": 283.33002 }, { "text": "Get back to me in a month.", "start": 283.33002, "end": 284.85 } ], "start": 275.795, "end": 284.85, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Let me see how I feel.", "start": 284.85, "end": 286.47 }, { "text": "But, there has to be some reason, and I think that goes back into, like, my why.", "start": 289.25, "end": 294.47 }, { "text": "Like, I think what we do at Code for Chicago does two things for me.", "start": 295.155, "end": 298.675 }, { "text": "One, it knows I'm, like, contributing and doing some good work in the world.", "start": 298.675, "end": 303.335 }, { "text": "And the volunteer space provides a lot of autonomy.", "start": 303.875, "end": 306.455 } ], "start": 284.85, "end": 306.455, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "When you it turns out when you don't attach a monetary incentive to stuff, it it opens up a lot of avenues.", "start": 306.91498, "end": 312.91 }, { "text": "Obviously, it has a lot of, challenges as well when you're not getting paid to do work, but it provides a lot of freedom, that isn't like, if you worked in the consultancy or the agency space, that that provides you sometimes.", "start": 312.97, "end": 324.89 }, { "text": "So I I do enjoy doing that and, like, seeing something built up, and building that thing.", "start": 324.89, "end": 330.555 }, { "text": "I think it's kind of an amazing idea.", "start": 331.575, "end": 333.335 }, { "text": "I don't know.", "start": 333.335, "end": 333.895 } ], "start": 306.91498, "end": 333.895, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I find that very interesting to me personally.", "start": 333.895, "end": 335.835 }, { "text": "So", "start": 335.975, "end": 336.135 } ], "start": 333.895, "end": 336.135, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In the prep conversation we had as we were getting ready for this interview, we talked a bit about the concepts of sustainable organizations.", "start": 337.50998, "end": 344.40997 }, { "text": "What what does that mean to you?", "start": 345.27, "end": 346.88998 } ], "start": 337.50998, "end": 346.88998, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 347.34998, "end": 347.66998 }, { "text": "I when I think about sustainable organizations, especially in the context in at Cofer Chicago where everyone's not paid to be there, sustainable to me means people don't burn out and the work doesn't get done.", "start": 347.66998, "end": 360.595 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 360.595, "end": 361.095 }, { "text": "So to me yeah.", "start": 361.875, "end": 363.41498 }, { "text": "To be sustainable means people are able to contribute at a healthy and regular pace that makes sense for them in a volunteer role.", "start": 363.57, "end": 369.99002 } ], "start": 347.34998, "end": 369.99002, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As one seeks to do that, something that's probably difficult is trying to keep a handle on practice leadership or, like, the areas that folks are good at, whether we're talking about, like, developers, designers, folks that are doing, like, social science type stuff, among other potential disciplines.", "start": 371.57, "end": 388.405 } ], "start": 371.57, "end": 388.405, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "How", "start": 389.585, "end": 389.665 } ], "start": 389.585, "end": 389.665, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "do you all handle guiding and supporting volunteer leaders in these sorts of, areas of expertise?", "start": 389.665, "end": 395.42 } ], "start": 389.665, "end": 395.42, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 396.76, "end": 397.24002 }, { "text": "That's a great question.", "start": 397.64, "end": 398.78 }, { "text": "First off, if anyone has any advice, I'm super open to it because this is this is hard.", "start": 399.16, "end": 404.04 }, { "text": "Because, like, in a in actual workspace, I feel like there's more of incentive and more you have more resources to create those mechanisms to provide that type of support I think people need.", "start": 404.04, "end": 414.16498 }, { "text": "And the volunteer space is kind of like a tick which you can get sort of thing.", "start": 414.465, "end": 418.145 } ], "start": 396.76, "end": 418.145, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, admittedly, like, we could do a better job providing support to, like, practice leadership to getting them to the point, where they feel unable to do what they can do.", "start": 418.145, "end": 428.8 }, { "text": "So to answer your your question, like, I think our strategy has been, like, identifying people who are who have, like, some investment in what we do, and usually that's based on, like, contribution.", "start": 430.3, "end": 441.45502 }, { "text": "And so when I noticed people, like, wanna contribute and are active contributors in in some sort of way, whatever that criteria is in my mind.", "start": 441.835, "end": 449.56 }, { "text": "I I try to seek those people out, because those people, like, are more likely to put in the time that required in order to be, like, a practice leader.", "start": 449.93997, "end": 458.84 }, { "text": "And, like, basically, it's it's it comes up to a couple things, and there's no real science to it.", "start": 459.69998, "end": 464.595 } ], "start": 418.145, "end": 464.595, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's like, one, giving them space and asking them, like, what is it that you need from us to make sure you do really well.", "start": 464.595, "end": 470.935 }, { "text": "And in some cases, like, I have, like, network outside of the brigade within my own professional network, connect them to, like, a mentor or someone else who could provide them that type of support.", "start": 471.155, "end": 480.62 }, { "text": "And so that's because a lot of the times, like, if it's a dev or project manager or whatever, like, I I I I that's not within my practice because I'm a designer, so usually seeking out those resources elsewhere.", "start": 481.72, "end": 491.34 }, { "text": "And if, like, if I can't find anyone, I just usually start asking around to find out what what is that we can do.", "start": 492.345, "end": 497.625 }, { "text": "So it's a very scrappy approach to it, and I don't know if that's always the best one the approach, this specific problem we're facing.", "start": 497.625, "end": 503.725 } ], "start": 464.595, "end": 503.725, "num_words": 149.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something that occurs to me there as I reflect while while while I'm listening to your answer there is, I imagine for a lot of folks, it's also this kinda, like, weird gateway into the idea of, like, being a leader in a practice.", "start": 505.49, "end": 516.29 }, { "text": "You and potentially, like, wanting to use the experience then get paid to do that same activity.", "start": 516.29, "end": 521.505 }, { "text": "I think that, honestly, I think that's how it operated for me.", "start": 521.80505, "end": 524.28503 }, { "text": "Like, I got to try out being, like, a developer leader before and figure out if I even liked it before I actually, like, did it in a place where they'd have, like, maybe higher barriers to entry.", "start": 524.28503, "end": 534.22504 }, { "text": "Is that do do you kinda, like, bump into folks where that's, like, a path they're trying to go on as you're doing this thing?", "start": 534.47003, "end": 540.09 } ], "start": 505.49, "end": 540.09, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mainly I've been in the volunteer space because, like I mentioned, I'm in in nonprofit management in some capacity for quite a while.", "start": 540.47003, "end": 547.035 }, { "text": "And, like, like it or like it or not, the in the volunteer space, it is, like, partially, like, professional development for a lot of people.", "start": 547.27496, "end": 552.71497 }, { "text": "So that's either, like, a pathway to gainful employment if they don't have it already, or it's, like, continuing, like, professional development in terms of building, like, those leadership skills.", "start": 552.71497, "end": 564.89 }, { "text": "Like, you like, as you mentioned, you wouldn't get otherwise because the barrier entry to be a leader code for Chicago is very low because the only requirement that we ask of you is, like, can you contribute, and are you willing to contribute on a on a consistent basis?", "start": 564.89, "end": 577.21 }, { "text": "And, like, our barrier of entry is, like, what?", "start": 577.21, "end": 579.42505 } ], "start": 540.47003, "end": 579.42505, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's a couple hours a week.", "start": 579.42505, "end": 580.80505 }, { "text": "And so, you know, a lot of problems we have at the brigade, is like senior leadership.", "start": 581.34503, "end": 587.74506 }, { "text": "And what is senior, I mean, like, people who've done their practice for, like, a bit like, a minute.", "start": 587.74506, "end": 591.33997 }, { "text": "A lot of times you get people that are newer.", "start": 591.33997, "end": 593.42 }, { "text": "And so, like, for me, it's easier to provide support for people that are new.", "start": 593.42, "end": 597.51996 } ], "start": 579.42505, "end": 597.51996, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But it's hard to provide support for people who are already seasoned because it's like they're kind of, like, either my experience level or above.", "start": 598.06, "end": 605.685 }, { "text": "And so it is kind of, like, basically a scrappy experience where you kinda have to figure out as you go, or I have to kind of sort like, link you to other resources or people that can probably support you better.", "start": 605.985, "end": 616.325 } ], "start": 598.06, "end": 616.325, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something related to there with that experience is, you probably also have folks that are leaders on projects that you're then kinda, like, leading from that layer above that are they have different skills than you do.", "start": 617.45996, "end": 629.775 }, { "text": "Maybe it's, you know, it's a developer while your expertise is more in design or it's someone whose product or, something like that.", "start": 630.09503, "end": 637.315 }, { "text": "Is there any other unique challenges to try and to, like, help coach folks that are trying to lead projects in practices that are different from", "start": 637.935, "end": 645.21 } ], "start": 617.45996, "end": 645.21, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "yours?", "start": 646.01, "end": 646.41003 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 646.41003, "end": 646.73004 }, { "text": "That that's a great question.", "start": 646.73004, "end": 648.19 }, { "text": "And I'm I'm sure we have the same problem because I did have this problem also in the consult in the for profit consultancy space.", "start": 649.05005, "end": 655.85004 }, { "text": "It's like scope creep.", "start": 655.85004, "end": 657.15 } ], "start": 646.01, "end": 657.15, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's the main issue we run into when we do these types of projects.", "start": 657.21, "end": 659.72504 }, { "text": "So, like, for some extra context, like, at Call for Chicago, we do treat it like a nonprofit consultancy.", "start": 659.72504, "end": 665.265 }, { "text": "And when we link up with partners, we do a fair amount of, like, discovery at the beginning to identify what's the technical scope of what we're trying to accomplish.", "start": 665.885, "end": 673.02 }, { "text": "And sometimes the problem is the leaders that I end up getting on the project don't start off on the onset.", "start": 673.42004, "end": 677.98004 }, { "text": "They come up maybe a little further on.", "start": 677.98004, "end": 680.4 } ], "start": 657.21, "end": 680.4, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm lucky if I do get people at the beginning.", "start": 680.78, "end": 682.80005 }, { "text": "So, like, part of their onboarding, we I have to set up a lot of documentation ahead of time to kind of detail, like, this is the scope we're trying to accomplish here.", "start": 683.18, "end": 693.485 }, { "text": "And, you know, this is and so a a lot of their contribution has to be, hopefully, around the scope.", "start": 694.26495, "end": 698.46 }, { "text": "There are times where I don't do a good job scoping as much as I can.", "start": 698.7, "end": 701.42004 }, { "text": "There are things you miss, and, like, inevitably, you find out things throughout the development process, things that you have to resolve anyway.", "start": 701.42004, "end": 708.32 } ], "start": 680.78, "end": 708.32, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there's, like, a fine balance between identifying, like, the problem to solve, making sure we're solving it, and then, like, creating, like, additional work as needed.", "start": 708.7, "end": 718.265 }, { "text": "But, like, that that's the biggest challenge really is, like, it's usually the like, I think people are very passionate individuals, and people wanna, like, provide like, contribute.", "start": 718.265, "end": 727.70996 }, { "text": "I but I I think a lot of people don't realize how much work it means in the volunteer space.", "start": 727.70996, "end": 732.20996 } ], "start": 708.7, "end": 732.20996, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Your mention there about the kind of the idea that sometimes you're bringing in folks kinda midstream is a great segue to the kind of next follow-up question I had in mind, which is about succession.", "start": 733.31, "end": 743.845 }, { "text": "I imagine something that comes off up often in these kind of volunteer leadership roles.", "start": 744.065, "end": 749.285 }, { "text": "What have you learned as you've tried to navigate that challenge?", "start": 749.745, "end": 752.645 } ], "start": 733.31, "end": 752.645, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, man.", "start": 754.18, "end": 754.5 }, { "text": "That's so hard.", "start": 754.5, "end": 755.30005 }, { "text": "I wish I had a better answer for this.", "start": 755.30005, "end": 758.02 }, { "text": "Like because succession could be in, like, a couple of things.", "start": 758.02, "end": 760.42004 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 760.42004, "end": 760.92004 } ], "start": 754.18, "end": 760.92004, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "On the project level, it could mean someone who is their project manager decides they have to leave for whatever reason, and then we have to identify someone else with a similar skill set to take over for them.", "start": 761.46, "end": 771.825 }, { "text": "And then there are, like, other succession on which, like, at at the leadership level when someone's doing, either things, at you know, like, for example, like, I we have someone who does events.", "start": 773.005, "end": 784.17 }, { "text": "If this person were to leave tomorrow, like, who who's who's in charge of doing events, or do is that something that we have to drop for now?", "start": 784.17, "end": 789.71 }, { "text": "Because it's, it's challenging.", "start": 790.01, "end": 792.51 }, { "text": "And I'm I'm not afraid to admit, like, for especially with the ones where, when it's at the pro project level, I oftentimes will find myself stepping in into that role, mostly because, like, either people on the project currently aren't willing to or don't want to or don't feel like they can.", "start": 793.065, "end": 809.17004 } ], "start": 761.46, "end": 809.17004, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, oftentimes, I'll try to ask and and see if people do want to do that.", "start": 809.47003, "end": 814.69 }, { "text": "But, like, the fact of the matter is, like, project manager project management on a project is, like, integral to, like, a pro bono project because it keeps the ship afloat as much as possible.", "start": 815.23004, "end": 824.17505 }, { "text": "So, yeah, I don't I don't know if I have a good answer to that because it's it's sort of like we just have to, like, figure out where where the resources are available, who who's willing to, like, step up or change your role.", "start": 824.17505, "end": 834.09 }, { "text": "But, again, it goes kinda goes back to that kind of scrappy attitude that we have to adopt, when it comes to approaching the volunteer work.", "start": 834.73004, "end": 840.83 } ], "start": 809.47003, "end": 840.83, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Speaking of those folks that often need to step up into different roles and things, I imagine that the way a volunteer's time is used is, you wanna make sure that's done in a way that they'll feel is, like, valuable and, like, useful and having an impact.", "start": 842.33, "end": 856.155 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 856.775, "end": 857.09503 }, { "text": "And I imagine that an organization's ability to do that well correlates in some way to retention as far as folks wanting to stick around and be involved.", "start": 857.09503, "end": 865.04 }, { "text": "What have you seen that has, like, worked or maybe not worked so well there?", "start": 865.81995, "end": 870.63995 } ], "start": 842.33, "end": 870.63995, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 871.89996, "end": 872.39996 }, { "text": "Let's go queue.", "start": 872.77997, "end": 873.75995 }, { "text": "The things I practice at the brigade are kind of a version of kind of what I've done in the past in other volunteer programs, and I wonder if other people feel like this is to be true.", "start": 874.86, "end": 884.475 }, { "text": "But I I find this very effective.", "start": 884.935, "end": 886.695 }, { "text": "I one at at the at the first level, just making sure your project is somewhat structured and organized.", "start": 886.695, "end": 891.915 } ], "start": 871.89996, "end": 891.915, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so those are, like, very basic things, like having a consistent meeting schedule, which does which sounds like very easy thing to do, but it's a very hard thing to practice, because there's because there's no, like, stakes in place.", "start": 892.68, "end": 905.96 }, { "text": "So you don't have to meet if you don't want to.", "start": 905.96, "end": 907.875 }, { "text": "But, like, having meeting a regular meeting cadence, having, like, having distributing work in a way that, people can feel like they can contribute.", "start": 908.275, "end": 917.335 }, { "text": "And so, like, for, like, very junior people, I find that they need to probably need a little bit more direction in terms of what a deliverable looks like.", "start": 917.795, "end": 925.71 }, { "text": "And, like, that just requires me to provide as much, like, documentation as much as possible or, like, having to sit on a call with them one on one to talk them through kind of what I need.", "start": 925.85, "end": 933.07 } ], "start": 892.68, "end": 933.07, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I find that the less abstract tickets, speak, and assign, the easier it could be for people to, like, digest and figure out what is it that they can do.", "start": 935.2025, "end": 943.77496 }, { "text": "Because really a lot of what a volunteer comes down to is not really, like, how, like, skilled you are while while that really helps.", "start": 944.635, "end": 951.8 }, { "text": "It really comes down to level of effort you're willing to contribute to a project.", "start": 951.8, "end": 955.1 }, { "text": "And that's easier to do, when you have good direction and you feel like shit's, like, shit's in place and organized.", "start": 955.32, "end": 960.86 } ], "start": 935.2025, "end": 960.86, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I think something I'm hearing from you there is that there's, like, a challenge in kind of figuring out, like, what level of ambiguity is appropriate for, like, where this person's at in their journey and kinda trying to, like, calibrate that.", "start": 962.47504, "end": 973.835 }, { "text": "Is that is that so?", "start": 973.835, "end": 975.215 } ], "start": 962.47504, "end": 975.215, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 975.51996, "end": 975.76 }, { "text": "And and, like, I don't also, like, ambiguity in general, I don't I just don't have control over a lot of things as well.", "start": 975.76, "end": 980.66 }, { "text": "And so I I oftentimes will have a lot of ambiguity that I'm, like, trying to work through too.", "start": 980.72, "end": 985.44 }, { "text": "So I I just depend on other people to collaborate with me to figure out what that how how how can we reduce that ambiguity as much as possible so we have an idea of what we're doing?", "start": 985.44, "end": 993.09503 } ], "start": 975.51996, "end": 993.09503, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As mentioned, I I think a couple of times in this conversation already, yeah, Go for Chicago tends to focus on partnering with nonprofits to empower the mission that they've got going on, which honestly, like, something that that sounds great since it I would imagine it raises the probability that the work you're doing will have some sort of actual impact since it's informed by, you know, folks with with experience in the space.", "start": 994.195, "end": 1016.42 }, { "text": "On the other hand, though, there's probably some unique challenges, like working directly with an organization like a nonprofit.", "start": 1016.96, "end": 1022.755 }, { "text": "Can you talk a bit about that experience you've had so far?", "start": 1023.695, "end": 1026.355 } ], "start": 994.195, "end": 1026.355, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1027.215, "end": 1027.615 }, { "text": "And I I I only can say this because I've also worked in the consultancy space.", "start": 1027.615, "end": 1031.935 }, { "text": "Some of the problems are very similar.", "start": 1031.935, "end": 1033.455 }, { "text": "Like, you have stakeholders whom you can't get too technical with, especially at the nonprofit level.", "start": 1033.455, "end": 1039.22 }, { "text": "If the if the if the organization doesn't have any, like, people that are in tech in any any capacity, and oftentimes, the partnerships that we, partner with, like, they have challenges, like, rerouting their hosting, like, in domain provider, for example.", "start": 1039.22, "end": 1052.355 } ], "start": 1027.215, "end": 1052.355, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So you have to make sure you can communicate technical details both at not only the dev, but also at the design level in terms of why you're doing something and what you're doing.", "start": 1054.575, "end": 1061.875 }, { "text": "And then I think it's also, like, a big challenge that we have for nonprofits too because they're not paying for the service is keeping a good level set of expectations in terms of, like, what the output from volunteers could look like.", "start": 1063.9199, "end": 1076.495 }, { "text": "Because, the con contribute the contribution con the the amount that you can give in a in your real job is so much more than you can give in a volunteer capacity.", "start": 1076.495, "end": 1086.755 }, { "text": "And so, like, progress team's extremely slow because we you can spend a whole year just redesigning a website whereas and for most people in a nine to five, that can for especially a static facing website that's for like, for marketing purposes, it could be done less than a month.", "start": 1087.26, "end": 1101.9 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1101.9, "end": 1102.245 } ], "start": 1054.575, "end": 1102.245, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, you're dealing with a lot of volunteers coming in and out.", "start": 1103.285, "end": 1107.145 }, { "text": "And so, like, you have to, like, set the right expectations when you start a partnership and let them know, like, hey.", "start": 1107.605, "end": 1112.885 }, { "text": "This is what's probably gonna happen.", "start": 1112.885, "end": 1114.505 }, { "text": "There's gonna be an influx of volunteers coming in and out.", "start": 1114.805, "end": 1117.38 }, { "text": "You know, this project will be long.", "start": 1118.02, "end": 1119.88 } ], "start": 1103.285, "end": 1119.88, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so, like, that's always hard to let people know because you have to oftentimes, they'll have, like we've had one organization who had board members knocking on the door, like, wondering, like, what what the update with the project was.", "start": 1121.54, "end": 1134.015 }, { "text": "And I you know, this is was a learning experience for me.", "start": 1134.015, "end": 1136.255 }, { "text": "I had made a promise for a deliverable on a specific deadline, which is, like, a terrible idea because I don't I don't have control over volunteer's time, and I can never predict how quickly someone can work on something even though, like, in in a past job that I had worked with someone and done it relatively quickly.", "start": 1136.255, "end": 1154.31 }, { "text": "Just volunteer's time works in its own space time continuum, and you can't ever predict that shit.", "start": 1154.31, "end": 1159.1101 }, { "text": "So you have to be, like, realistic with your expectations.", "start": 1159.1101, "end": 1161.3701 } ], "start": 1121.54, "end": 1161.3701, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That very much makes sense.", "start": 1163.4149, "end": 1165.095 }, { "text": "I'm actually thinking to myself, you know, I I I work in consulting for for pay to keep the the lights on and this mic working here.", "start": 1165.335, "end": 1172.5549 }, { "text": "And, it's even hard in that situation, to kinda manage expectations.", "start": 1172.9349, "end": 1176.94 }, { "text": "So, like, you know, there's, like, a team of people around me that they're all getting paid forty hours a week to focus on this, and we still, can get guess can guess wrong on how long something is gonna take.", "start": 1176.94, "end": 1186.22 }, { "text": "So I imagine it's, like, an especially unique challenge when you have kind of folks that are, you know, it's, like, in their free time, and you're not really always sure exactly how much of the time you're gonna get.", "start": 1186.22, "end": 1195.245 } ], "start": 1163.4149, "end": 1195.245, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1196.425, "end": 1196.925 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1197.865, "end": 1198.185 }, { "text": "It it's it's a it's the clusterfuck sometimes because you're not sure sometimes some people's out sometimes we get that, like, triple a volunteer that that just, like, is hungry and just really wants to contribute and it nails down, and then we lose them.", "start": 1198.185, "end": 1210.03 }, { "text": "And then we're back to square one with the terms of app the type of app where we can contribute.", "start": 1210.03, "end": 1214.43 }, { "text": "So it's it's so much it's so hard to predict manage.", "start": 1214.43, "end": 1217.4901 } ], "start": 1196.425, "end": 1217.4901, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, I I gathered from from mister Jordan, you've had at least one experience there where, it ended up causing, like, potentially a little extra stress there.", "start": 1219.2949, "end": 1227.635 }, { "text": "Have you Yeah.", "start": 1227.775, "end": 1228.415 }, { "text": "Have you kinda tuned how you talk about expectations with these organizations kinda more recently?", "start": 1228.495, "end": 1234.4349 } ], "start": 1219.2949, "end": 1234.4349, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1234.88, "end": 1235.04 }, { "text": "I don't and I don't know if I'm doing this right.", "start": 1235.04, "end": 1236.8 }, { "text": "I only know how I know how to do it, Ryan.", "start": 1236.9601, "end": 1238.7201 }, { "text": "And you know me.", "start": 1238.7201, "end": 1239.3601 }, { "text": "I just I just tell them straight up, like, this is what's gonna happen.", "start": 1239.3601, "end": 1242.74 } ], "start": 1234.88, "end": 1242.74, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I don't try to sugarcoat, like, the expectations because I'm just like, look.", "start": 1243.2001, "end": 1247.325 }, { "text": "Like, this is volunteer's time.", "start": 1247.4049, "end": 1249.1649 }, { "text": "And I may not wear it exactly like this, but it's like the the tone or, like, the feeling we should get from is like, look.", "start": 1249.1649, "end": 1254.5449 }, { "text": "We can do what we do.", "start": 1254.605, "end": 1255.6449 }, { "text": "We wanna contribute and help.", "start": 1255.6449, "end": 1257.2649 } ], "start": 1243.2001, "end": 1257.2649, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so if you would wanna take on this partnership and this is I'm sorry.", "start": 1258.0449, "end": 1261.15 }, { "text": "This is something I I didn't mention earlier.", "start": 1261.15, "end": 1262.83 }, { "text": "Like, I also mentioned to them this is, like, a collaborative experience too.", "start": 1262.83, "end": 1265.97 }, { "text": "This is not just, like, you say this is what we need help with, go do it, and get back to us in, like, six months.", "start": 1266.1901, "end": 1271.41 }, { "text": "This is, like, we have a regular cadence with partners as well, oftentimes twice a month.", "start": 1271.63, "end": 1276.105 } ], "start": 1258.0449, "end": 1276.105, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, one, provide them updates, but, two, like, give them homework too or things to do.", "start": 1276.1649, "end": 1279.605 }, { "text": "Like, I know for one partner, like, we didn't have anyone on the team that did, like, content design or write copy.", "start": 1279.605, "end": 1285.7849 }, { "text": "So we'll depend on our partners to write that for us because they're they're the ones that know their their the thing the best.", "start": 1286.245, "end": 1291.81 }, { "text": "And all all I can do as, like, a project manager or design lead is help, curate that ex the the experience or collaborate them and let them know kind of what I feel like we need, and it's a back and forth in terms of figuring out what what that content ends up on the site.", "start": 1291.81, "end": 1305.305 }, { "text": "But, like, yeah, it's a very collaborative experience.", "start": 1305.305, "end": 1307.5651 } ], "start": 1276.1649, "end": 1307.5651, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Have you found that all that, so, you know, this is a a pro bon bono model, as I think we we might have mentioned to folks.", "start": 1309.305, "end": 1316.025 }, { "text": "Have you found that there's ever a struggle where, since they don't have, like, a line item saying, like, the budget where it's like we paid x amount of dollars to build this thing, but that has, like, an impact on engagement, assuming that they aren't, like, really tracking the time cost, which I think is something that's, like, very easy at organizations to overlook.", "start": 1316.025, "end": 1334.9349 }, { "text": "Like, oh, this is a salary person or an hourly person, and they're spending their time on this.", "start": 1334.9349, "end": 1339.595 }, { "text": "But then yeah.", "start": 1340.215, "end": 1341.575 }, { "text": "Like, do do you ever run into things where, like, maybe they don't see it as they're being a big risk, so there's it's, like, harder to engage with them consistently.", "start": 1341.575, "end": 1349.26 } ], "start": 1309.305, "end": 1349.26, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, yeah.", "start": 1349.72, "end": 1350.2 }, { "text": "Sorry.", "start": 1350.2, "end": 1350.52 }, { "text": "And I I meant to I wrote this I wrote that kind of in my jumble of thoughts before our call.", "start": 1350.52, "end": 1355.0 }, { "text": "But, yes, that one of the problems is also engagement as well because there isn't.", "start": 1355.0, "end": 1359.1 }, { "text": "And I don't know what it is.", "start": 1359.265, "end": 1360.5449 } ], "start": 1349.72, "end": 1360.5449, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It could probably be potentially be like they don't see the value that they're getting out of because there's nothing really at stake for them.", "start": 1360.785, "end": 1366.3049 }, { "text": "They can dip out anytime they want to.", "start": 1366.3049, "end": 1367.905 }, { "text": "They're we have had issues with some partners.", "start": 1367.905, "end": 1370.645 }, { "text": "Going back to me mentioning earlier, I had to tell them this is a collaborative experience because sometimes there are partners that aren't as engaged and not it's not because they don't want to.", "start": 1370.785, "end": 1378.85 }, { "text": "Just oftentimes, the nonprofit space, you have a lot of dedicated and passionate people who just have a lot on their plate.", "start": 1378.91, "end": 1384.77 } ], "start": 1360.785, "end": 1384.77, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And sometimes, managing, like, their their static facing website or or whatever whatever project that we're working on may not be the highest priority sometimes.", "start": 1384.91, "end": 1393.735 }, { "text": "Because if you have a fundraiser going on and you're the only person that has to do it, I I bet you that person's gonna contribute most of their time towards that, you know, fundraising drive or whatever event that helps, like, build equity for the for the organization.", "start": 1394.275, "end": 1407.19 } ], "start": 1384.91, "end": 1407.19, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Something we've maybe mentioned a little bit in these conversations or alluded to is that concept of burnout, which I imagine is something that's on your mind as an organizer of a group like Code for Chicago.", "start": 1408.85, "end": 1419.995 }, { "text": "Are there things you've tried to do at that organizational level to kinda try to help manage the the impact of it?", "start": 1420.455, "end": 1427.115 } ], "start": 1408.85, "end": 1427.115, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Man, Ryan, I know you asked a million dollar question.", "start": 1428.375, "end": 1430.875 }, { "text": "I I wish I wish I had the answers.", "start": 1431.015, "end": 1433.71 } ], "start": 1428.375, "end": 1433.71, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's what they pay me the $0 for.", "start": 1435.2899, "end": 1437.7899 } ], "start": 1435.2899, "end": 1437.7899, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1437.9299, "end": 1438.33 }, { "text": "The zero yeah.", "start": 1438.33, "end": 1439.21 }, { "text": "The zero pro bono for bono dollars.", "start": 1439.21, "end": 1441.3899 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1442.8899, "end": 1443.3899 }, { "text": "Burnout is yeah.", "start": 1443.45, "end": 1444.6499 } ], "start": 1437.9299, "end": 1444.6499, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's it's tricky.", "start": 1444.6499, "end": 1445.5299 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1445.5299, "end": 1446.0299 }, { "text": "The way I try to mitigate that as much as possible for incoming volunteers and what I tell myself at night before I go to sleep is that, like, the contribution that you can contribute should be whatever you can contribute.", "start": 1447.895, "end": 1460.315 }, { "text": "And that some people just need a number sometimes, and we tell them, like, one to four hours.", "start": 1460.45, "end": 1464.07 }, { "text": "Because the way we set up our tickets, our ticketing system is that the the amount of contribution you can provide can be done within an hour, on purpose because I don't want people to burn out because I know what that's like to take on and do a lot.", "start": 1464.85, "end": 1478.625 } ], "start": 1444.6499, "end": 1478.625, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And even to the extent of telling people when they wanna do, like, multiple projects upon joining, I I kind of set the right expectations.", "start": 1479.405, "end": 1486.0449 }, { "text": "Like, hey.", "start": 1486.0449, "end": 1486.445 }, { "text": "Let's start with one.", "start": 1486.445, "end": 1487.49 }, { "text": "And then if you feel like you can ramp up, you you're free to join another one.", "start": 1487.73, "end": 1491.75 }, { "text": "So, like, I hate to say it this way, but setting some sort of, like yeah.", "start": 1491.89, "end": 1495.49 } ], "start": 1479.405, "end": 1495.49, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Setting that expectation ahead of time.", "start": 1495.49, "end": 1497.27 }, { "text": "And then, like, setting reasonable expectations to contribute like, contributing.", "start": 1497.97, "end": 1501.51 }, { "text": "Like, we we the approach to, like, I feel like works best in a volunteer space is, like, bat baton passing.", "start": 1501.955, "end": 1507.575 }, { "text": "And so, like, if someone is noodling on a ticket and for whatever reason, it's taking them longer than possible to do it, instead of having them hold on to that ticket for, like, months on end, especially if they know themselves that they have things going on, I always tell them, like, hey.", "start": 1507.955, "end": 1522.7799 }, { "text": "Look.", "start": 1522.7799, "end": 1523.02 } ], "start": 1495.49, "end": 1523.02, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "How you know, would it be possible for us to hand this ticket over to someone else?", "start": 1523.02, "end": 1526.64 }, { "text": "You take a step back or take us a ticket that's a little smaller or less complicated or whatever it is that the issue that they've been having.", "start": 1526.895, "end": 1531.855 }, { "text": "Or, like, can you see yourself, like, pairing up with another person?", "start": 1531.855, "end": 1535.0751 }, { "text": "And, like so, like yeah.", "start": 1535.375, "end": 1537.7151 }, { "text": "And then just providing, like, necessary guidance for volunteers to to to succeed, and just, like and that could be as simple as, like, telling them, like, hey.", "start": 1537.775, "end": 1547.65 } ], "start": 1523.02, "end": 1547.65, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Look.", "start": 1547.65, "end": 1547.89 }, { "text": "If you can't contribute this ticket or if you can't come to Sam, that's totally fine.", "start": 1547.89, "end": 1551.51 }, { "text": "Like, but it's it's a balance.", "start": 1551.8099, "end": 1553.4149 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1553.4149, "end": 1553.6549 }, { "text": "Because you have to have, like, some type of consistency in the group.", "start": 1553.6549, "end": 1556.5349 } ], "start": 1547.65, "end": 1556.5349, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I know there's a lot of people who work in the volunteer space who've dealt with volunteers, like, really disappearing.", "start": 1556.5349, "end": 1561.515 }, { "text": "And so it's a balancing act because, like, on one hand, I have to tell volunteers or I need, like, I need to tell them for their own sake and for our sake too because I don't want them to burn out that, hey.", "start": 1563.255, "end": 1573.12 }, { "text": "You should really only contribute what you can.", "start": 1573.12, "end": 1575.38 }, { "text": "But on their hand, there has to be some sort of, like, level of accountability, which can is which is a hard line to tow, because if someone's, like, consistently telling me every meeting, like, hey.", "start": 1576.48, "end": 1587.265 }, { "text": "I'm working on this, and it's been, like, six months.", "start": 1587.265, "end": 1588.865 } ], "start": 1556.5349, "end": 1588.865, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like like, those are the hard discussions that you have to have with them.", "start": 1588.865, "end": 1593.905 }, { "text": "Because you're like, hey.", "start": 1593.905, "end": 1594.625 }, { "text": "Look.", "start": 1594.625, "end": 1595.125 }, { "text": "You know, I I get that it's been hard, but, like, this is blocking other people from doing stuff.", "start": 1595.905, "end": 1600.7999 }, { "text": "So, like, you know, as, like, a necessary measure, we might have to reassign it to someone else, or try to work with them in some capacity to get it done.", "start": 1600.7999, "end": 1607.52 } ], "start": 1588.865, "end": 1607.52, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, yeah, it's it's a hard line to tow.", "start": 1607.52, "end": 1609.62 } ], "start": 1607.52, "end": 1609.62, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I definitely hear you there.", "start": 1611.1649, "end": 1612.445 }, { "text": "I, actually, I remember back when, we were kinda doing some reorganizing.", "start": 1612.445, "end": 1617.345 }, { "text": "You had kinda taken on wanting to redo the way we were, like, onboarding folks.", "start": 1617.6449, "end": 1621.965 }, { "text": "In particular, there was kinda, like, the presentation we had that folks would go through.", "start": 1621.965, "end": 1625.6649 }, { "text": "And I remember one of the things that I thought was, really well done that I was excited about seeing is you tried to set up, like, hey.", "start": 1625.75, "end": 1634.9501 } ], "start": 1611.1649, "end": 1634.9501, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is probably what you're thinking.", "start": 1634.9501, "end": 1636.49 }, { "text": "You can as as far as the amount of time that you can Yeah.", "start": 1636.9501, "end": 1639.785 }, { "text": "You can put this.", "start": 1639.865, "end": 1640.5851 }, { "text": "And you have these, like, blocks and a calendar as, like, work, and then everything outside of it was, like, code for Chicago time.", "start": 1640.5851, "end": 1645.305 }, { "text": "But then but then you're like, hey.", "start": 1645.305, "end": 1646.665 } ], "start": 1634.9501, "end": 1646.665, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, look.", "start": 1646.665, "end": 1647.0651 }, { "text": "Life's a thing, and this is probably what it really looks like.", "start": 1647.0651, "end": 1649.545 }, { "text": "And you put, like, you know, you gotta eat dinner and but you gotta spend time with the family or you gotta, like, wash your clothes.", "start": 1649.545, "end": 1655.79 }, { "text": "I I always thought that, like, that having that in the presentation was, like, helpful to kinda help folks see, like, what the reality was gonna be like.", "start": 1656.65, "end": 1663.4701 } ], "start": 1646.665, "end": 1663.4701, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1663.93, "end": 1664.43 }, { "text": "I've had people, like, give me that similar compliment before because I think, and I don't know if any other people feel this way, but I feel sometimes when we talk about, like, volunteerism, there's kind of like a pie in the sky mentality or like a I don't know.", "start": 1664.65, "end": 1678.175 }, { "text": "It it's it's there's a, like, an op there's unwarranted optimism sometimes, which I don't know that just cause I'm a pessimist.", "start": 1678.175, "end": 1684.27 }, { "text": "I I feel like a contrary feeling, but, like, I like to just be realistic kind of, like, what what how we spend our time and what how we can contribute to the world because, like, we've all felt like being 18 or 19 wanna save the world, but as soon as you get into the world, you hear how hard it gets.", "start": 1684.27, "end": 1700.595 }, { "text": "So I I I like to set that level, like, expectations upfront so people know what they're getting themselves into.", "start": 1700.6549, "end": 1705.315 } ], "start": 1663.93, "end": 1705.315, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Speaking of folks that are out there and maybe wondering about the things they've gotten themselves into, What advice would you give them if they're currently in this moment where maybe they're struggling with feeling a little burnt out, but they still want to have that, like, volunteer impact and they're kinda struggling with that line?", "start": 1706.495, "end": 1723.22 } ], "start": 1706.495, "end": 1723.22, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Man, another hard question, Ryan.", "start": 1724.595, "end": 1726.375 }, { "text": "Quit?", "start": 1727.075, "end": 1727.475 }, { "text": "I don't know.", "start": 1727.475, "end": 1728.215 }, { "text": "I think and this is something I have to tell myself a lot.", "start": 1730.835, "end": 1734.435 }, { "text": "It's something I work through in therapy.", "start": 1734.435, "end": 1736.275 } ], "start": 1724.595, "end": 1736.275, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's, like, recognize, like, what's your priority in your life?", "start": 1736.275, "end": 1738.675 }, { "text": "What is it that you like what are the things that are important to you?", "start": 1738.675, "end": 1741.4401 }, { "text": "And I I know that's, like, a hoity, hoity answer, but that's really what it comes down to.", "start": 1741.4401, "end": 1744.48 }, { "text": "Like, how do you wanna spend your time?", "start": 1744.48, "end": 1746.0 }, { "text": "We all know we have to work in some capacity.", "start": 1746.0, "end": 1747.84 } ], "start": 1736.275, "end": 1747.84, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 1747.84, "end": 1748.0801 }, { "text": "We have to make money to pay the bills to help us, like, you know, either support our families or ourselves.", "start": 1748.0801, "end": 1753.46 }, { "text": "But what are the other things that are important to you?", "start": 1754.325, "end": 1756.1649 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 1756.1649, "end": 1756.825 }, { "text": "And how can you still make those things happen with the time that we're allotted.", "start": 1757.445, "end": 1760.485 } ], "start": 1747.84, "end": 1760.485, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 1760.485, "end": 1760.645 }, { "text": "Because there's only fourteen hours in a day or, I don't know, let maybe less than that for some people when you're not sleeping in terms of how you can spend your time.", "start": 1760.645, "end": 1768.505 }, { "text": "So I I I tell people volunteers all the time.", "start": 1768.8401, "end": 1772.52 }, { "text": "It's like, if if you feel overwhelmed, like and you feel like you it stop it's blocking you from contributing, like, it's totally okay to leave.", "start": 1772.52, "end": 1781.56 }, { "text": "Like, if, you know, call for Chicago, you know, knock on wood, it will always kind of be around in some capacity.", "start": 1781.56, "end": 1788.715 } ], "start": 1760.485, "end": 1788.715, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But if not call for Chicago, another volunteer opportunity where you can do some good shit is out there in the world.", "start": 1788.935, "end": 1794.775 }, { "text": "And it was still like, people there will always be a sense of altruism and community out there, whether it's at Copeland Chicago or elsewhere.", "start": 1795.015, "end": 1802.5499 }, { "text": "So, like, it's totally okay if you need a break and, like and, you know, as you know, for me, Ryan, like, I've done that a handful of times at Copeland Chicago before I became captain.", "start": 1802.5499, "end": 1810.3899 }, { "text": "I've I've I, you know, I've gone on, like, months, like, not contributing.", "start": 1810.3899, "end": 1813.675 }, { "text": "Like, you know, hey.", "start": 1813.675, "end": 1814.155 } ], "start": 1788.935, "end": 1814.155, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm gonna I'm gonna dip out for a little bit and come back.", "start": 1814.155, "end": 1816.495 }, { "text": "And, you know, and and I've I I've come back personally.", "start": 1816.715, "end": 1819.1951 }, { "text": "I've seen other people do that, and some people don't come back ever.", "start": 1819.1951, "end": 1821.835 }, { "text": "You know, but it really depends on kind of what where people are in their lives.", "start": 1822.075, "end": 1825.63 }, { "text": "And I I I always try to keep that door open for them if if they wanna come back.", "start": 1825.63, "end": 1829.73 } ], "start": 1814.155, "end": 1829.73, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Continuing on this theme of getting advice from Joseph, what would you say to someone who is like, say they're just starting out.", "start": 1830.8301, "end": 1838.1901 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1838.1901, "end": 1838.43 }, { "text": "And they're they're gonna be a leader in a volunteer organization, maybe you want a lot like a Code for America brigade.", "start": 1838.43, "end": 1843.705 }, { "text": "What advice would you give them as they're, you know, green behind the ears and they're kinda or I I just mixed up, like, two idioms in one thing there.", "start": 1844.485, "end": 1851.685 }, { "text": "But, anyways, as they're new to the process and they're trying to figure out what's what they're doing.", "start": 1851.685, "end": 1855.705 } ], "start": 1830.8301, "end": 1855.705, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Don't do it.", "start": 1857.1, "end": 1857.74 }, { "text": "If Ryan tells you a text is DMs you and swag and asking you, I outright say no.", "start": 1857.74, "end": 1863.34 }, { "text": "No.", "start": 1863.34, "end": 1863.84 }, { "text": "It might my advice would differ kind of depending on the person.", "start": 1865.58, "end": 1868.86 }, { "text": "I think, if you're going into a role where there's not an infrastructure like, there's a lot of opportunity to rebuild some infrastructure, if I were to, like, do it over again, I would actually try to especially if you're in the brigade system specifically, like, seek out, like, mentorship or support elsewhere.", "start": 1868.86, "end": 1884.375 } ], "start": 1857.1, "end": 1884.375, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, COBRA Boston, like, for LA, like, you know, COBRA Philly.", "start": 1885.61, "end": 1890.1699 }, { "text": "These are, like, brigades have been standing, been around for a while, and there's a lot to learn from these other organizations.", "start": 1890.1699, "end": 1895.47 }, { "text": "And so I think of the I think if I could do things over again, I would have, like, sought out some solicit some feedback from them first and learn kind of from an operational level how they do.", "start": 1897.1449, "end": 1905.865 }, { "text": "Because you'll find that in the way that the brigade network, manages itself, it's very like, I would it be accurate to say it's kind of federated and that, like, we get a lot of autonomy to do however we want?", "start": 1905.865, "end": 1915.27 }, { "text": "So you find that one brigade does things very different from another brigade.", "start": 1915.27, "end": 1918.5701 } ], "start": 1885.61, "end": 1918.5701, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, I I've even disagreed with some things that other brigades do, but that's on them, and this works for us.", "start": 1919.03, "end": 1924.17 }, { "text": "So, yeah, I would try to, like, get a better understanding of how brigades operate at operate, from a logistical, level.", "start": 1924.31, "end": 1933.685 }, { "text": "And you'll find that when you do reach out to these brigade leaders, like, they're very open and very, like, passionate about the what they do just like you.", "start": 1935.185, "end": 1942.36 }, { "text": "And they're very open to, like, talking shop and helping you out, as much as they can.", "start": 1942.5, "end": 1946.92 }, { "text": "The other advice I would tell someone is, like, keep your output and your contribution manageable.", "start": 1948.8201, "end": 1954.775 } ], "start": 1919.03, "end": 1954.775, "num_words": 104.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If you decide to go especially in a leadership role, know that, if you are also going on projects is is it's also another thing.", "start": 1955.715, "end": 1965.635 }, { "text": "Like, managing a brigade and being on a project are oftentimes not intertwined because one part you have to do a lot of the, like, recruitment to, like, fun like, to, like, manage the projects, the orientation, the the sneaky things that come up, like, having to submit, like, like, quarterly reports to Code for America.", "start": 1965.635, "end": 1986.4551 }, { "text": "Those things can come up.", "start": 1986.8351, "end": 1987.795 }, { "text": "So recognize that that's a love different level of output from contribute to a project.", "start": 1987.795, "end": 1992.295 }, { "text": "And don't do what I do is, like, be on, like, several different projects at once because that's how you can easily burn out.", "start": 1992.435, "end": 1999.85 } ], "start": 1955.715, "end": 1999.85, "num_words": 125.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, it's deceptive, especially when you're on a project and things are very slow that you can do multiple at the same time.", "start": 2000.17, "end": 2006.81 }, { "text": "But I I would keep you I would temper your expectations.", "start": 2006.81, "end": 2009.0701 }, { "text": "It's just start small first and then gradually, like, increase your output as you have a better sense of how what what the lay of the land is.", "start": 2009.13, "end": 2016.585 } ], "start": 2000.17, "end": 2016.585, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Joseph, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 2017.525, "end": 2021.605 }, { "text": "I I have no doubt folks are gonna listen to, what you shared and have some interesting stuff to think about in in their day to reflect on.", "start": 2021.605, "end": 2029.27 } ], "start": 2017.525, "end": 2029.27, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2029.4099, "end": 2029.57 }, { "text": "I I hope listeners, you got something from this.", "start": 2029.57, "end": 2032.15 }, { "text": "Even through my I don't know's or I'm not sure, so I hope I hope this was helpful.", "start": 2032.2899, "end": 2035.8099 }, { "text": "This was fun, Ryan.", "start": 2035.8099, "end": 2036.61 }, { "text": "Thank you for having me.", "start": 2036.61, "end": 2037.83 } ], "start": 2029.4099, "end": 2037.83, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat.", "start": 2038.635, "end": 2043.135 }, { "text": "Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.", "start": 2043.435, "end": 2050.575 } ], 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Is that is that so?", "words": [ { "word": "i", "start": 962.47504, "end": 962.715, "confidence": 0.9988232, "punctuated_word": "I", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "i", "start": 962.715, "end": 962.875, "confidence": 0.8902472, "punctuated_word": "I", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "think", "start": 962.875, "end": 963.03503, "confidence": 0.99987733, "punctuated_word": "think", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "something", "start": 963.03503, "end": 963.275, "confidence": 0.9976907, "punctuated_word": "something", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "i'm", "start": 963.275, "end": 963.515, "confidence": 0.9996524, "punctuated_word": "I'm", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "hearing", "start": 963.515, "end": 963.835, "confidence": 0.999961, "punctuated_word": "hearing", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.28821385 }, { "word": "from", "start": 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This is something I I didn't mention earlier. Like, I also mentioned to them this is, like, a collaborative experience too. This is not just, like, you say this is what we need help with, go do it, and get back to us in, like, six months. This is, like, we have a regular cadence with partners as well, oftentimes twice a month. So, one, provide them updates, but, two, like, give them homework too or things to do. 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