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There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about Civic Tech. Mike, thank you thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Certainly. So I I am a, a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, being active in in open source for a long time. I am a, open standards and practices lead at Civic Actions, of being involved in accessibility and sustainability issues for a number of years, and I really work to, I believe that the government has a really important role to go off and to address the the serious challenges that we're facing as a as a, as a species and that we need to go off and and learn to to have government, be able to more effectively meet the needs of citizens. And what would you say is your personal why? The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do. I think it's just that the the opportunity seeing the potential to to make things better, to be able to to to have an impact on the world. And, I I mean, I certainly, when I was a business owner, it was really quite interesting to go off and to see that that, the opportunity to go off and have an impact, but but then I became a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, and it's it's fascinating influence a community that that just drives so much the web. It's it's, it's a really great opportunity to be able to, to explore and to, to really feel that you are able to make an impact that's bigger than the the day to day, grind that we all have to go through. And you mentioned that Drupal community there, which sounds like something in particular that's kind of drawn, you toward it in your personal why. What is it about that community that kinda makes you wanna be a part of it? Well, the the the phrase is is, you know, that there's often talked about in the Drupal community is is, come for the code, stay for the community. And it's a it's a it's a large, very, engaging community of people who who are are developing collectively a content management system. And, and it's it's really quite a powerful tool, and there's some really, amazing people that are part of it that I've learned so much from and, in in a way that I've been able to contribute to them. So, there's the the phrase in in in the open source community that that you're you're standing on the shoulders of giants. And, I just happen to know who some of those giants are and have been able to to learn from them and and benefit from from, being able to to to to work with them. The mention of, a key web technology is maybe a nice segue into our topic, which is web accessibility. When we use that phrase accessibility, you know, in regards to the web, what are we really talking about? Why is it important to think about that when we're building all these web services? So so it's really interesting when we're in this this modern digital age that we don't we don't really have a a real sense of of, who has disabilities and how how people are engaging and interacting with the world around us. For example, I can't tell you tell if you have any vision issues. It doesn't look like you're wearing glasses, but you might be wearing contacts. As far as I know, you may or may or may not be, be somebody who's in a wheelchair. Again, I see you in a chair, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean anything. I just, you know, but but but also from a digital perspective, so much of of how we work and engage with the world is now coming through these digital devices. And, and I think that that we're we're so often forgetting that that, that there's people who experience the world on different ways than we do. So if you only are writing for one one medium, you're excluding people, and you can be excluding, you know, if you look at permanent disabilities, different different agencies calculate it differently, but but it's often, calculated about a quarter of the population has a disability. Now that may not be, a physical ability that would restrict them from going up and downstairs and whatnot, but it may be something that, like dyscalculia or or dyslexia that makes it difficult for them to read. So it's it's it's, it's something that that's just a greater awareness about how about the human condition and and the importance of building for everyone because we all have a role. You know, you say 20 like, around twenty five percent of the population. I mean, if you're out there trying to build a web service to try to reach, you know, the the populace, you're probably holding yourself back if you're limiting limiting yourself from being able to reach such a large group. Absolutely. Especially if you're looking at things like, you know, seniors. Like, you know, as we grow older, we we develop more disabilities. Our eyesight starts going down after 40, sometimes earlier. You know, our ability to remember things, our our control our fine motor control, it's particularly important in in aging cultures where or aging societies where where you have a lot of people who who are are less able to go off and engage, and yet have gotten very comfortable and and dependent on the digital tools that they've they've learned to use. In the Web Almanac chapter, you mentioned something that's maybe, like, closely related to what we're talking about here about trying to reach communities. And that you mentioned that, accessibility is not just morally good, but ultimately something that's good for democracy. Can you add a bit more to that that, phrasing you you've kinda brought in here? Yeah. So so, just to just to back up on the web almanac. So so the the HTTP archive, is is a is an organization that's part of the Internet archive, and they have been writing an annual review of of the the web for for a number of years. They missed the, 2023 because of, personal issues, but it's a really interesting opportunity to sort of have a snapshot of what what has happened in the year, and what changes have happened, in in the web. And, they they scanned, over 17,000,000 webs web pages, for for all kinds of issues, on on, the code quality, CSS, security issues. They're really trying to go off and get a a a good snapshot of of where where the the, the where the web is for that year. And so I I wanted to get involved in the the accessibility, chapter and the sustainability chapter because these are both issues that I'm concerned about. I didn't expect to go off and to to end up authoring the chapter itself when I got involved, but I it it turned out that that I I needed to step up and and and to do that. But but in terms of your question about it being a, a morally good thing, like, we we really do need to be able to go off and and, to to to speak to citizens and and, to to engage with all citizens, not just the the citizens who are, who are able-bodied, or can use digital technology. We need to be able to bring people into to the to using this technology and and being able to interact with with government in order to get the services that they're frankly paying for, and should be able to access in in a way that is is beneficial to them. And and it's it's, it's no different if you you you we we're, you know, in 2025, we're not satisfied with the idea of excluding women from voting, you know, or or people who are not property owners, or denying people access to to the the the the ability to vote because based on the color of their skin. These are all things that we've all, decided are are are not useful for a modern democracy, And accessibility is is, is just another another one where where we need to have people, be able to engage with with their government in in a in a means that they they they're capable capable of based on their their abilities. I think I'm hearing a theme of participation in there and maybe from some different angles. So, obviously, if you're running a government service, well, you want everyone to be able to use it. But if you're not even at the state where you're governing it, say you're someone who's in the political campaigning portion of it, well, you won't be able to engage with your ideas. So you probably should be accessible there so people can actually know what you stand for. If you're a news organization, you know, you're in that kind of branch of things. Well, you want an informed public. So you probably wanna make it so people can actually get access to the things you're producing. If you're someone who kind of does more of the social media thing, you probably hope that network is accessible so that when you kind of try to have that conversation, people can actually get to it. Am I kinda, like, onto a theme that you're pointing to correctly there? Absolutely. Like, it it's it it is important on all of those layers, but also people within the government as well. Like, the the public sector employees that are engaging, with us, they also have disabilities. It's not simply the the public, it's it's, it's also, the staff of our our our agencies because, because accessibility disability is so prevalent in in in just just part of the human condition that we need to be able to anticipate that and and and prepare for it. As we talk about disability, something I noticed in your, writing, you referred to the Microsoft's inclusive design guidelines, which talk about disability as something that can have a temporal context, which I found, pretty interesting. You know, some situations are temporary, while others might be more permanent. What's your take on that kind of that approach to thinking about it? I I I do really like it, which is, which is why I keep keep promoting it and talking about this this approach. And it really, you know, there's a misconception that that accessibility is just, you know, about that, that one blind guy who who uses a screen reader and can't access those content. But it's really so much bigger than that, because, you know, our our ability to go off and to to to navigate through through the the, through the through the our technologies does change over time. And we all will occasionally have limitations to how we, engage with with digital services. So for example, if you've, if you're if you're getting an eye exam, you may put get eye drops in your in your eyes that go off, make your vision blurry for a few hours afterwards. Or if you've got allergies, that's another great opportune another time where where people's vision may not be as good as as, as it is at other times. Even if you've you've got a, a, like, you know we had a a call scheduled earlier where I had a cough, and there's no easy way at this point to be able to go and have a, to use assistive technology to to to completely replicate my voice in a way that would be useful for a podcast. But we postponed that meeting because I had because I was under the weather. I was I was fine to go off and to to do a lot of work, but but if I was gonna be talking for a prolonged period of time, like in a podcast, I wouldn't be able to, to to to do that. So so try to go from there and think about the the the all of those those those issues. Also just in terms of the situation where you happen to be in, if it's a a sunny day and you're outside with your phone and you're trying to go up and find the address where you're meeting somebody, and you've got a a light gray text on a light gray background, like, that doesn't work for for most people. Or if you're on a noisy bar and you're trying to go off and engage with Siri, likewise. It's not something that is going to work particularly well if you're in in an area that is is is noisy, which is not dissimilar from from from ways that, that people with permanent disabilities are trying to engage with technology. So it's it's just trying to go up and make it easier for people to to understand how this is just helping everyone, use technology that the way they want to in however they however and wherever that they happen to be. As we think about this topic, what role, if any, do you envision governments playing in the the goal to improve web accessibility? They have a huge role, both in terms of of their their legislation, which has really been, fundamental to going and improving accessibility around the world. The US really played a enormous role in in taking the, with Section five zero eight, in the late 90s, and the Americans with Disability Act, and and countries around the world have, have really only began to make a, a jump when when it's being clear that there's a a stick associated with, not thinking about, about accessibility. It absolutely should be something that everyone does consider. Certainly for businesses, there's a, there's a huge incentive to, to having, having to thinking about accessibility issues and and serving people with disabilities, whether you're a small restaurant or whether you're you're a a big web company, there there are advantages simply in terms of being able to access more, more people. The the, The UK, has an interesting report where they have, have looked at this and described it as the purple pound, is the the amount of of money that that the the disability community spends. And often, it's not just the disability community, but it's but it's also, everyone else that is is, yeah. It's it's it's it's it's it's people who come with them, the family, the friends, who are also spending money with that person because they want to go off and and and to to support, support them, or enjoy a dinner with them. Like, that that all is part of of this, this survey that The UK has has implemented. But but before governments actually started to go and and take it seriously and put legislation in in place, a lot of times, most organizations around the world have have have seen it as a as a nice optional thing to have, but not something you've actually invested money in. The other thing that's that's worthwhile is that, governments are are by far the the largest procure of goods and services in the world. So if governments were able to get together and to look at how they spend money and say we need you, we need our the people who supply us goods and services to build them so that they're available for everyone and can work no matter what disabilities they may have, then that would be would be a huge thing to try and advance, the the market for everyone. In The US, this is part of section five zero eight, and in Europe, it's part of the the, the Europeans for Accessibility Act, which is coming into effect, this this July, I believe. But, but, but, yeah, procurement is is a huge part of this, trying to build those incentives so that, just like security isn't an option for digital products, we should not see accessibility as an option for for digital products either. That we want to make sure that all of our products can be used, by people regardless of their their abilities. Also with that last bit, it sounds a bit like the the government has a role in in modeling proper behavior. So by creating those requirements on in order to serve the government and help the government serve others, it models what the government wishes to see others do with their communities that they serve. Am I kinda hearing that correctly? It's it's modeling, but it's more than that. I mean, it's it's it's, you know, if if all the governments around the world got together and and told Microsoft, we need to go off and have these accessibility tools built in, to all of your products before we're able to buy them, Microsoft would take it more seriously than they do now. And, I mean, Microsoft has has made real inroads, recently in accessibility, but there's definitely a lot of stuff that they they miss in a lot of regressions that happen for for users with disabilities who have to struggle to go out and and have a consistent level of service with, with products even from from Apple or Microsoft. It's still, something that that needs more attention. But but if the governments were able to put this into the contract and put real teeth into this, then then these the large companies and the small companies would would learn how to go and and to to actually build products where accessibility is not an afterthought, where there is integrated testimonies that serves everyone and and not just government. When you mentioned bring kind of countries coming together for it, it sounds a bit like you might be pro some sort of, like, international concord between nations that are that are, like, trying to maybe have, like, some somewhat similar frameworks, for what to require of companies. Am I hearing that correctly or or not so much? It would be I think there's our advantages to that. And, but but even within, so many, projects and governments are are are so siloed that that there there isn't really much of an opportunity to get cooperation or collaboration even within a given agency or department to to work on a project and collaborate and use their collective force, even within that agency. The US could do so much even on its own trying to, to engage with with the, with the people that they buy technology from. And certainly, if there's collaboration on the state and local level to try and and build towards accessible open standards that are are geared towards interoperability. I think we have, well documented, you know, secured, like, if if governments are able to go and and to to think beyond the project and and cooperate with each other in order to say we need to raise the bar so that everyone gets better services from government the technology that government buys, then I think we go further. But but everything's so specific to the project and and so, and there's so little sharing between government agencies about best practices and what they've learned. So, yeah, I think that an international, approach could be fine, but it's not necessary, especially with the government as large as as the American government. We mentioned, five zero eight, for example, as as maybe one, like, particular standard. What if any others are there out there that you think folks should be striving to work towards as they're, like, thinking about their own services, or is that kind of the the place to be? Five zero eight is is good, especially since the refresh that that took place, in, you know, within the Obama administration. The last but one of the last things that they they did was to to update this the section five zero eight guidelines to to, to align with the international standard, which at the time was w k two point o, double a. Since that time, the w k standards have moved on. And, although the the states presently are are responsible, state legislation or state governments and municipal governments now need to go off and need to be WCAG 2.1, compliant. So there there there's been an upgrade for the states, but not for the the federal government. I think that that in terms of other standards, the big one that the the The US needs to to look at and learn from is is is Europe and and their EN three zero one five four nine. And in in this case, Europe has a a separate standards body that has has created a, a set of guidelines that that is very similar to section five zero eight, has a lot to to learn from it, but but it's also, it's being updated on a regular time period. So, you know that there's going to be a standards body that's going to review the w k guidelines and bring this into a European standard that can be, be make sure that that that it is is is being that is relevant and and, still useful for for for the the citizens of Europe to be able to have a modern digital experience and and and equitable modern digital experience. Right now, if you're looking at if you're looking at at section five zero eight for the the in the context of the federal government, the guidelines that they they're required to stick towards are, w k two point o, double a, as as I said. That was released the year after the iPhone, the first iPhone was released. So if you think about, like, how old that is, like, that's December 2008. How much has the web changed since December 2008? And if we're looking at accessibility guidelines, we shouldn't be looking at guidelines that are are that old as what we're we're defining our, you know, our our accessibility guidance on. Like, the the the web has changed enormously since 2008, and and the standards that we're using for our government should reflect that. And I think you mentioned something more up to date would be WCAG at 2.1. Did did I hear that correctly? 2.1. Actually, the latest recommended release, from the from the Web Accessibility Initiative is WCAG 2.2, And that's something that that, Ian three zero one five four nine is is considering for the next release, and it has a lot of additional features in it that are that just that that address things that were were missed in, in the previous, versions of WCAG. So then, it sounds like then if someone has the wherewithal and, like, the the autonomy to be able to do so, going for compliance with, like, the the standard set at the 2.2 version is probably the the best move if you have to pick. Is that correct? Abs absolutely. But but, also, if you you're thinking about how software is being built and how software projects the life cycle of a of a software project, it is always more expensive to retrofit a software project. If you're going to, try and and like, you shouldn't be building for the standards that your your project is is, is required to legally when you're you're, when you're first developing RFP for for a piece of for a digital tool. You should be looking at what the standards are likely to be when throughout the lifespan of your digital product. And if it's gonna take a year or two for the the project to be built and you're hoping it will have a lifespan of five years, well, you know, why would you do anything else other than trying to build towards w k 2.2? I mean, you could hope that maybe there'll be some grandfather clause that would allow you to go off into, delay upgrading your code to w k 2.2. But but forward thinking organizations should be thinking about how do we build that best user experience. And and already, the best user experience is is has been defined as being WCAG 2.2. So why would you not try and aim for that? I think your answer is a a great segue to the the next question I had jotted down here, which was talking about, you know, how how do you recommend teams ensure that that accessibility work is properly prioritized as prioritized as they go through design and build steps? Like, how do you make sure it's not a thing that's, like, left to the end? Like, as we talk about like, let's do two dot two, for example. Like, how do you make that part of the the process at the start? So so I think that that it's it's important to take a role based approach that that any digital product right now involves designers, content people, front end people, back end people. Like, there's a there's a range of of of skills that are needed to to build a, a modern digital website. And every role has a, has a has a connection to to to accessibility in one way or the other. So a usability per person, there's a number of success criteria that relate relate specifically to usability. There's others related to the visual design, like color contrast, for example, is a great one that that is, you know, a a bigger issue for for, for for visual designers than it is for others. There's different steps that are required for those. So so I'm part of a, a w c three, community group called the, called ARMS, the accessible roles and responsibilities mapping, where we're trying to take all of these success criteria and map them against the the standard roles that are are used in our industry. So that's part of it, just trying to diversify the the the the responsibility so it's not all sitting on the shoulders of of one person. Another thing is to bring in your project management focus and making sure that how is accessibility dealt with in in your your project sprints. Are you looking to to see that that, the that when you're you're you're building in a CICD pipeline, that that your your list of URLs that you're you're building are are going to be, including things like like, you know, yeah, a lot of times the CICD pipe pipelines, address URLs that are are were relevant of, you know, a few months or even a few years ago, but you really wanna make sure that that that is actually looking at the the issues that your team is presently building on that would be affected. So if there's any changes that are happening, in that, in that code base that they're going to be caught by the CICD pipeline. So in terms of looking at at at project management, and and organizing for, for a successful, accessibility completion. It's also East Web App Champions, somebody who's who's on the team, who's, not necessarily an accessibility expert who's but who's willing to go off and and learn about accessibility, to talk with others, to be able to to to reach out to say, how do we how do we take the best practices that are, that are being used elsewhere and and bring it into to our community? There are frankly so many resources out there on web accessibility, and there's so much to learn about how people interact with technology that that, that currently is just trying to to be aware of what's happening outside your project and finding ways to bring that in so that you can help educate and and make others more, aware about how they can they can produce more inclusive content. And and it's it's it's also probably just changing changing your definition of quality so that quality is you're not producing quality work if your work isn't accessible. Would your approach change at all if you're thinking about it from the perspective of someone who has to kind of influence from the outside? Like, that classic kind of consultant kind of dilemma. Maybe you're partnering with the government agency or even, like, a private organization. You're trying to convince them that, hey. Like, we really need to have accessibility front of mind, as we're putting things together. How would you suggest folks kind of approach trying to advocate for that? I think, Carly, it's it's reminding people about how how this is something that isn't isn't a fringe issue. This is something that benefits everyone. Again, if it's if it's if it's, you you know, a quarter of the population has a disability, it you'd have to be a pretty insular person not to to know somebody who has trouble reading or has difficulty accessing the web. Maybe it's it's your your your parents, maybe it's it's, you know, a friend of a friend, maybe it's your colleague, but but there are are going to be be, just just reminding them about about the people in their lives that are are are are having difficulty. And standards like WCAG do not inspire people. It does not motivate people to act. But but realizing that this is really about humanity and and, and making sure that that you can communicate your ideas and that they are, that you're you're you're able to go off and have as much future compatibility as possible, whether that's to yourself because, you know, any of us can have a have a disability from from one day to the next. You know, there's my vision last year was was better than it is today. I'm having to go off and start wearing glasses, for for reading now because I, because my eyesight is is deteriorating. That wasn't the case, you know, even a year ago. So trying to to keep that in mind that that, but but also in terms of future technologies, like, we, we know that artificial intelligence is becoming more important in our lives, and, and if we can build semantic structures to make sure there's no confusion for humans or for bots, I think that that we're going to be able to make sure that there's there's that that authors are are able to go off and more clearly, communicate their intent to readers and have a more effective communication between people. And even if that involves bots, it's it's it's really, about being able to to to have that clearer communication of of intent, between people. As folks maybe get past that prioritization stuff and get into the work with it, in your experience, what are some of the biggest challenges that teams face when it comes to trying to make their services accessible? In so much of the time, it's it's, it's it's a it's about just a lack of awareness and a lack of knowledge of what what is out there and what is is fairly easy for people to, to implement. So there's a lot of automated tools out there that, that people can use that that, can make accessibility much easier. But then once they learn that, they they they sort of, you know, tend to people tend to lean on those tools and just sort of assume that if you if you get a 100 in Google Lighthouse on accessibility, you're good. But but that's unfortunately not the case. You know, all of these automated tools, they all they can do is is test certain elements of WCAG and determine whether or not there's a failure of that test. So all you know from from an automated accessibility scan is that a certain number of the tests passed or failed, but that doesn't tell you if you're you're meeting WCAG because WCAG is much more complicated and nuanced than that. And ultimately, it's it's, you know, helping helping people understand that that you're not building for standards. You're not you're not trying to build for for, for these automated tools. You're trying to build for people. So how do we try and and support those people to see that that, that people with lived experience with disability are really appreciated and for their their expertise, in in how they navigate and work with digital systems. And how do we try and make sure that that the tools and the the user experience, whether it's an oral experience with, with somebody that uses, a screen reader or perhaps it's it's, somebody who navigates with with a keyboard and not not a mouse. You know, how how do we make sure that they they're able to go off and to bring their expertise into this so that that we're able to actually ensure that our our work is is helping real people with disabilities. With how you describe that towards the end, it sounds a bit like it's that classic thing where you can't rely wholly on a quantitative approach or a qualitative approach. You have to kinda take in both and see qualitative approach. You have to kinda take in both and see, like, maybe the testing is your quantitative thing. Like, oh, it gives you some Right. Some signal. But then it's not gonna tell you the whole story. So you go out and you try to get personal stories or stories of folks that are, like, engaging with your tool using some of the things you're hoping folks are able to use. Am I kinda like getting that thread correctly where where you're where you're pointing? Yeah. Absolutely. And and there's things that, like, automated tools can be used for for so much. I mean, we were we were able to, using Google Lighthouse and and the the web accessibility, sorry, the the web almanac and the accessibility chapter of that, scanned 17,000,000 web sorry, 17,000,000 domains, and I think twice as many, pages because there was the primary page and secondary page that were scanned as part of that. Like, the amount of knowledge that we have, that that we could could gather through automated testing is just in in in for that qualitative sorry. The quantitative information is just so much it's it's so impressive and so valuable to get a sense of how how far is the benchmark moving, how how accessible are we, as as a society, or or how how accessible is the web? You can't do that with manual processes. You just you can't gather and organize enough people to be able to assess 17,000,000 web pages on a monthly basis. Like, that's that's, that's just well beyond what what is capable, of of any any society to try and and do. But automated testing is quite easy to do that. So how do we try and and pair that? The automated test that can do so much so quickly with the, the human test that actually determine, you know, does it does the rubber how does the rubber actually hit the road? How do what is the actual experience for a user? And and just like other user research or user testing that is done, in the design world, really, that's that's where we need to to to have have more energy, more, more experience for for developers is to sort of get a sense of, like, how how does this actually work with real people, and and how does this actually work with real people with disabilities? And I think it sounds like something folks maybe should pick up on there is maybe there's a a thing where as you're doing your user research, you know, you're testing with individuals. Right? There's probably something about, like, thinking about mindfully how you're representing folks at different ability levels, whether the temporal or or permanent in your testing. Right? So make sure you actually have you're getting the knowledge of what it's like. Am I kinda hearing that correctly there too? Yeah. Absolutely. And and and there are, certainly are are organizations that that are are setting aside a portion of their their user research budget to include people with disabilities. So, you know, if you you would think that if a quarter of the population had a disability, you would you would, use a, you know, that number as a as a the twenty five percent as a reference to say, well, how much of our time and energy are we going to spend, looking at people who who are who have English as a second language or who are, are are are engaging with but but have, a low literacy rate or people who are, who are blind, people like, there's there's a lot of of different kinds of disabilities out there that we could be be doing more research and gathering more information on in order to make sure that we're we're not missing something obvious when it comes to communicating, particularly from governments. And on the topic of the the automated tools they were talking about before, are there any that you would suggest folks look into in particular that they're kind of, like, maybe a a standard deviation above the others in your experience? I do really like, accessibility insights as a tool. This is this is a, an open source tool that that, that Microsoft has put together that really, highlights some of the the best practices of open source because they, they actually use, another open source tool, called, Axe or DQ's Axe, which is a a wonderful accessibility scanning tool that that is used by by Google Lighthouse and and and others. But but they they contribute they contribute back to it. So Microsoft is not only a user of open source, but they're contributing back upstream to those those projects. They're also extending it, trying to make it more useful for for people to to quickly provide a, a snapshot of where, where the problems are and and how to to address them. A huge challenge with with any technology is or reporting any bug is how do you make it reproducible. And I don't know any other tool that that, does as much to make these accessibility errors reproducible, and provide a simple way to cap to snapshot the URL, the, what else do they capture? The the, the XPath information to be able to access that. The the, the error that's associated with the the page and and and they've just sort of built it together quite nicely for for people to just drop into your Jira tickets and and, make it clear for anyone to be able to say, okay. This is a problem. This is how you can replicate it, and here's some ideas about how to fix that problem. Continuing think about the threat of of some of these, like, technical tools that folks work with. At the start of our conversation today, we, you know, we were already getting into content management systems. Kinda talk about Drupal a bit. But in reality, a lot of folks work with some content management system or another, for different web services. Mhmm. Are there any patterns or things of that nature folks should be looking out for if their primary thing is, like, maintaining or building on top of one of those? Yeah. The the, it it's really useful to to to for any any piece of software that you're using to, do some investigation on the accessibility. Do they have an accessibility statement? Do they have an accessibility team? If they if it's an open source project with a, with an open source issue queue, you can say, you know, what are the accessibility issues that are are being, being talked about, or are are they being addressed? If you're, you know, some products will have a, an accessibility conformance report that's public. So that's useful as well to go and say, what are they what is the vendor claiming to be be the accessibility problems that they know about, and how can they be, and how are they addressing them? Those have unfortunately largely become sales documents, with the the VPAT, the Voluntary Product Accessibility Template. We're trying to change that and have worked with GSA to, to build a, a tool called OpenACR. So, the team at Civic Actions went and and built this, both a an open standard, as well as a website editor that allows you to take information and and and and provide it in a machine readable format and also in a nice readable HTML format, and and use an editor that that allows you to to ensure that the content is being produced in a standardized way. And, so so there's you know, we're working to try and and and change how how that is being being managed, but, but these are things that you can look for. So, like, how how in how are they they talking about accessibility? And you don't wanna find it's not that you don't wanna find something that has no accessibility errors because that probably just means that nobody that the project hasn't looked about accessibility or they're covering up the information. You wanted to look at, how are they they dealing with these issues and how are they they, fixing them, and And and are they doing that in a timely manner to make sure that that as issues come up, they are addressed and and and responded to in a in a in a in an efficient manner. If there's folks out there that are listening to us talk about all of this and they're getting really excited, like, man, I I wanna I wanna get in and start doing this work. What are what's some advice that you would give those folks as they're, you know, just trying to get started, maybe taking those first steps? Firstly, there's there's so much to learn here. So there's some great newsletters out there. The Ally Weekly newsletter is is, probably the easiest starting point for people to to understand, accessibility. It has if you sign up for it, there's a, a weekly sort of summary of of issues and and topics that come up that you can learn from. David Kennedy's been producing that for a number of years and it's it's, really, really wonderful how he's he's summarized and organized information. There's certainly other good newsletters as well, but but making sure you've got something in your inbox to to, to keep keep that in mind. Also, we're all using open source projects in one way or the other. Finding some way to contribute back to those, looking for accessibility issues and, whether that's contributing to bug or asking a question or creating a pull request, all those things are useful to make sure that that the the projects you're using are, are are more aware of the interest in addressing accessibility as as as part of their their regular build and release process. So if you're if you're part of that and engaging with those open source communities, it can help a lot. The the other thing is just just to, to to learn. There's events too that that, there's a free conference that, that that that DQ organizes called Axcon, and it's two days of free content. You just need to sign up, and you can watch these amazing videos from from leaders around the world. There's, there's a session called Inclusive Design twenty four where they, and they have speakers around the world who do, twenty four hours of programming on accessibility. There's events like GAD, the Global Accessibility Awareness Day, where where there's so much interesting information that is pulled together and shared with the world. So, you know, being part of that, engaging online or, finding ways to to, perhaps, you know, pitch a talk of your own. And those are also useful ways to to get involved and to and to learn. As we get close to our close of the conversation, we've had a a fairly wide ranging discussion, I think, on accessibility, accessibility, as folks are kind of, you know, letting it mold in their brains, like, kinda letting it flip thoughts form. What are some kind of couple of things that you'd really like them to take away and kinda bring into their day as they get to the end of the podcast? I I think that that by by picking up something like accessibility or or for that matter sustainability, you take some additional lens to look at the work that you do in whatever your role is and and start to to investigate and learn about how how accessibility and the WCAG standards, will apply to your the definition of of your your work. I think it's it's it's something that that will help individuals become better at their craft, if they they take the time to sort of see how this this, lens to to thinking about technology, can can, can help them, make sure that they are a a better developer or or content creator or designer. These are all things that, yes, it's a nice thing to be able to to do to say that you're contributing back on on something as as important as accessibility, but it's also clear that by by taking the time to invest in this to learn in this area, you're going to get additional skills and become increasingly valuable for whatever role you take on next. So definitely see this as as being, a really important piece of a of a learning journey to make sure that that we're all able to be better at the work that we do. Mike, thank you so much for joining us on Civic Tech Chat. I I have no doubt folks have, some valuable nuggets to take into their work and the way they go about building web services. Thank you so much, Ryan. This is a fun conversation. Thanks for listening to the show. You can check us out on the web at civictech.chat. There you'll find links to our discord and other social media accounts. To keep up to date as episodes come out, subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice. 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I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.\n\nThere will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about Civic Tech. Mike, thank you thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat.\n\nCould you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you\n\nSpeaker 1: do? Certainly. So I I am a, a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, being active in in open source for a long time. I am a, open standards and practices lead at Civic Actions, of being involved in accessibility and sustainability issues for a number of years, and I really work to, I believe that the government has a really important role to go off and to address the the serious challenges that we're facing as a as a, as a species and that we need to go off and and learn to to have government, be able to more effectively meet the needs of citizens.\n\nSpeaker 0: And what would you say is your personal why? The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do.\n\nSpeaker 1: I think it's just that the the opportunity seeing the potential to to make things better, to be able to to to have an impact on the world. And, I I mean, I certainly, when I was a business owner, it was really quite interesting to go off and to see that that, the opportunity to go off and have an impact, but but then I became a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, and it's it's fascinating influence a community that that just drives so much the web. It's it's, it's a really great opportunity to be able to, to explore and to, to really feel that you are able to make an impact that's bigger than the the day to day, grind that we all have to go through.\n\nSpeaker 0: And you mentioned that Drupal community there, which sounds like something in particular that's kind of drawn, you toward it in your personal why. What is it about that community that kinda makes you wanna be a part of it?\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, the the the phrase is is, you know, that there's often talked about in the Drupal community is is, come for the code, stay for the community. And it's a it's a it's a large, very, engaging community of people who who are are developing collectively a content management system. And, and it's it's really quite a powerful tool, and there's some really, amazing people that are part of it that I've learned so much from and, in in a way that I've been able to contribute to them. So, there's the the phrase in in in the open source community that that you're you're standing on the shoulders of giants. And, I just happen to know who some of those giants are and have been able to to learn from them and and benefit from from, being able to to to to work with them.\n\nSpeaker 0: The mention of, a key web technology is maybe a nice segue into our topic, which is web accessibility. When we use that phrase accessibility, you know, in regards to the web, what are we really talking about? Why is it important to think about that when we're building all these web services?\n\nSpeaker 1: So so it's really interesting when we're in this this modern digital age that we don't we don't really have a a real sense of of, who has disabilities and how how people are engaging and interacting with the world around us. For example, I can't tell you tell if you have any vision issues. It doesn't look like you're wearing glasses, but you might be wearing contacts. As far as I know, you may or may or may not be, be somebody who's in a wheelchair. Again, I see you in a chair, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean anything.\n\nI just, you know, but but but also from a digital perspective, so much of of how we work and engage with the world is now coming through these digital devices. And, and I think that that we're we're so often forgetting that that, that there's people who experience the world on different ways than we do. So if you only are writing for one one medium, you're excluding people, and you can be excluding, you know, if you look at permanent disabilities, different different agencies calculate it differently, but but it's often, calculated about a quarter of the population has a disability. Now that may not be, a physical ability that would restrict them from going up and downstairs and whatnot, but it may be something that, like dyscalculia or or dyslexia that makes it difficult for them to read. So it's it's it's, it's something that that's just a greater awareness about how about the human condition and and the importance of building for everyone because we all have a role.\n\nSpeaker 0: You know, you say 20 like, around twenty five percent of the population. I mean, if you're out there trying to build a web service to try to reach, you know, the the populace, you're probably holding yourself back if you're limiting limiting yourself from being able to reach such a large group.\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolutely. Especially if you're looking at things like, you know, seniors. Like, you know, as we grow older, we we develop more disabilities. Our eyesight starts going down after 40, sometimes earlier. You know, our ability to remember things, our our control our fine motor control, it's particularly important in in aging cultures where or aging societies where where you have a lot of people who who are are less able to go off and engage, and yet have gotten very comfortable and and dependent on the digital tools that they've they've learned to use.\n\nSpeaker 0: In the Web Almanac chapter, you mentioned something that's maybe, like, closely related to what we're talking about here about trying to reach communities. And that you mentioned that, accessibility is not just morally good, but ultimately something that's good for democracy. Can you add a bit more to that that, phrasing you you've kinda brought in here?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So so, just to just to back up on the web almanac. So so the the HTTP archive, is is a is an organization that's part of the Internet archive, and they have been writing an annual review of of the the web for for a number of years. They missed the, 2023 because of, personal issues, but it's a really interesting opportunity to sort of have a snapshot of what what has happened in the year, and what changes have happened, in in the web. And, they they scanned, over 17,000,000 webs web pages, for for all kinds of issues, on on, the code quality, CSS, security issues.\n\nThey're really trying to go off and get a a a good snapshot of of where where the the, the where the web is for that year. And so I I wanted to get involved in the the accessibility, chapter and the sustainability chapter because these are both issues that I'm concerned about. I didn't expect to go off and to to end up authoring the chapter itself when I got involved, but I it it turned out that that I I needed to step up and and and to do that. But but in terms of your question about it being a, a morally good thing, like, we we really do need to be able to go off and and, to to to speak to citizens and and, to to engage with all citizens, not just the the citizens who are, who are able-bodied, or can use digital technology. We need to be able to bring people into to the to using this technology and and being able to interact with with government in order to get the services that they're frankly paying for, and should be able to access in in a way that is is beneficial to them.\n\nAnd and it's it's, it's no different if you you you we we're, you know, in 2025, we're not satisfied with the idea of excluding women from voting, you know, or or people who are not property owners, or denying people access to to the the the the ability to vote because based on the color of their skin. These are all things that we've all, decided are are are not useful for a modern democracy, And accessibility is is, is just another another one where where we need to have people, be able to engage with with their government in in a in a means that they they they're capable capable of based on their their abilities.\n\nSpeaker 0: I think I'm hearing a theme of participation in there and maybe from some different angles. So, obviously, if you're running a government service, well, you want everyone to be able to use it. But if you're not even at the state where you're governing it, say you're someone who's in the political campaigning portion of it, well, you won't be able to engage with your ideas. So you probably should be accessible there so people can actually know what you stand for. If you're a news organization, you know, you're in that kind of branch of things.\n\nWell, you want an informed public. So you probably wanna make it so people can actually get access to the things you're producing. If you're someone who kind of does more of the social media thing, you probably hope that network is accessible so that when you kind of try to have that conversation, people can actually get to it. Am I kinda, like, onto a theme that you're pointing to correctly there?\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolutely. Like, it it's it it is important on all of those layers, but also people within the government as well. Like, the the public sector employees that are engaging, with us, they also have disabilities. It's not simply the the public, it's it's, it's also, the staff of our our our agencies because, because accessibility disability is so prevalent in in in just just part of the human condition that we need to be able to anticipate that and and and prepare for it.\n\nSpeaker 0: As we talk about disability, something I noticed in your, writing, you referred to the Microsoft's inclusive design guidelines, which talk about disability as something that can have a temporal context, which I found, pretty interesting. You know, some situations are temporary, while others might be more permanent. What's your take on that kind of that approach to thinking about it?\n\nSpeaker 1: I I I do really like it, which is, which is why I keep keep promoting it and talking about this this approach. And it really, you know, there's a misconception that that accessibility is just, you know, about that, that one blind guy who who uses a screen reader and can't access those content. But it's really so much bigger than that, because, you know, our our ability to go off and to to to navigate through through the the, through the through the our technologies does change over time. And we all will occasionally have limitations to how we, engage with with digital services. So for example, if you've, if you're if you're getting an eye exam, you may put get eye drops in your in your eyes that go off, make your vision blurry for a few hours afterwards.\n\nOr if you've got allergies, that's another great opportune another time where where people's vision may not be as good as as, as it is at other times. Even if you've you've got a, a, like, you know we had a a call scheduled earlier where I had a cough, and there's no easy way at this point to be able to go and have a, to use assistive technology to to to completely replicate my voice in a way that would be useful for a podcast. But we postponed that meeting because I had because I was under the weather. I was I was fine to go off and to to do a lot of work, but but if I was gonna be talking for a prolonged period of time, like in a podcast, I wouldn't be able to, to to to do that. So so try to go from there and think about the the the all of those those those issues.\n\nAlso just in terms of the situation where you happen to be in, if it's a a sunny day and you're outside with your phone and you're trying to go up and find the address where you're meeting somebody, and you've got a a light gray text on a light gray background, like, that doesn't work for for most people. Or if you're on a noisy bar and you're trying to go off and engage with Siri, likewise. It's not something that is going to work particularly well if you're in in an area that is is is noisy, which is not dissimilar from from from ways that, that people with permanent disabilities are trying to engage with technology. So it's it's just trying to go up and make it easier for people to to understand how this is just helping everyone, use technology that the way they want to in however they however and wherever that they happen to be.\n\nSpeaker 0: As we think about this topic, what role, if any, do you envision governments playing in the the goal to improve web accessibility?\n\nSpeaker 1: They have a huge role, both in terms of of their their legislation, which has really been, fundamental to going and improving accessibility around the world. The US really played a enormous role in in taking the, with Section five zero eight, in the late 90s, and the Americans with Disability Act, and and countries around the world have, have really only began to make a, a jump when when it's being clear that there's a a stick associated with, not thinking about, about accessibility. It absolutely should be something that everyone does consider. Certainly for businesses, there's a, there's a huge incentive to, to having, having to thinking about accessibility issues and and serving people with disabilities, whether you're a small restaurant or whether you're you're a a big web company, there there are advantages simply in terms of being able to access more, more people. The the, The UK, has an interesting report where they have, have looked at this and described it as the purple pound, is the the amount of of money that that the the disability community spends.\n\nAnd often, it's not just the disability community, but it's but it's also, everyone else that is is, yeah. It's it's it's it's it's it's people who come with them, the family, the friends, who are also spending money with that person because they want to go off and and and to to support, support them, or enjoy a dinner with them. Like, that that all is part of of this, this survey that The UK has has implemented. But but before governments actually started to go and and take it seriously and put legislation in in place, a lot of times, most organizations around the world have have have seen it as a as a nice optional thing to have, but not something you've actually invested money in. The other thing that's that's worthwhile is that, governments are are by far the the largest procure of goods and services in the world.\n\nSo if governments were able to get together and to look at how they spend money and say we need you, we need our the people who supply us goods and services to build them so that they're available for everyone and can work no matter what disabilities they may have, then that would be would be a huge thing to try and advance, the the market for everyone. In The US, this is part of section five zero eight, and in Europe, it's part of the the, the Europeans for Accessibility Act, which is coming into effect, this this July, I believe. But, but, but, yeah, procurement is is a huge part of this, trying to build those incentives so that, just like security isn't an option for digital products, we should not see accessibility as an option for for digital products either. That we want to make sure that all of our products can be used, by people regardless of their their abilities.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also with that last bit, it sounds a bit like the the government has a role in in modeling proper behavior. So by creating those requirements on in order to serve the government and help the government serve others, it models what the government wishes to see others do with their communities that they serve. Am I kinda hearing that correctly?\n\nSpeaker 1: It's it's modeling, but it's more than that. I mean, it's it's it's, you know, if if all the governments around the world got together and and told Microsoft, we need to go off and have these accessibility tools built in, to all of your products before we're able to buy them, Microsoft would take it more seriously than they do now. And, I mean, Microsoft has has made real inroads, recently in accessibility, but there's definitely a lot of stuff that they they miss in a lot of regressions that happen for for users with disabilities who have to struggle to go out and and have a consistent level of service with, with products even from from Apple or Microsoft. It's still, something that that needs more attention. But but if the governments were able to put this into the contract and put real teeth into this, then then these the large companies and the small companies would would learn how to go and and to to actually build products where accessibility is not an afterthought, where there is integrated testimonies that serves everyone and and not just government.\n\nSpeaker 0: When you mentioned bring kind of countries coming together for it, it sounds a bit like you might be pro some sort of, like, international concord between nations that are that are, like, trying to maybe have, like, some somewhat similar frameworks, for what to require of companies. Am I hearing that correctly or or not so much?\n\nSpeaker 1: It would be I think there's our advantages to that. And, but but even within, so many, projects and governments are are are so siloed that that there there isn't really much of an opportunity to get cooperation or collaboration even within a given agency or department to to work on a project and collaborate and use their collective force, even within that agency. The US could do so much even on its own trying to, to engage with with the, with the people that they buy technology from. And certainly, if there's collaboration on the state and local level to try and and build towards accessible open standards that are are geared towards interoperability. I think we have, well documented, you know, secured, like, if if governments are able to go and and to to think beyond the project and and cooperate with each other in order to say we need to raise the bar so that everyone gets better services from government the technology that government buys, then I think we go further.\n\nBut but everything's so specific to the project and and so, and there's so little sharing between government agencies about best practices and what they've learned. So, yeah, I think that an international, approach could be fine, but it's not necessary, especially with the government as large as as the American government.\n\nSpeaker 0: We mentioned, five zero eight, for example, as as maybe one, like, particular standard. What if any others are there out there that you think folks should be striving to work towards as they're, like, thinking about their own services, or is that kind of the the place to be?\n\nSpeaker 1: Five zero eight is is good, especially since the refresh that that took place, in, you know, within the Obama administration. The last but one of the last things that they they did was to to update this the section five zero eight guidelines to to, to align with the international standard, which at the time was w k two point o, double a. Since that time, the w k standards have moved on. And, although the the states presently are are responsible, state legislation or state governments and municipal governments now need to go off and need to be WCAG 2.1, compliant. So there there there's been an upgrade for the states, but not for the the federal government.\n\nI think that that in terms of other standards, the big one that the the The US needs to to look at and learn from is is is Europe and and their EN three zero one five four nine. And in in this case, Europe has a a separate standards body that has has created a, a set of guidelines that that is very similar to section five zero eight, has a lot to to learn from it, but but it's also, it's being updated on a regular time period. So, you know that there's going to be a standards body that's going to review the w k guidelines and bring this into a European standard that can be, be make sure that that that it is is is being that is relevant and and, still useful for for for the the citizens of Europe to be able to have a modern digital experience and and and equitable modern digital experience. Right now, if you're looking at if you're looking at at section five zero eight for the the in the context of the federal government, the guidelines that they they're required to stick towards are, w k two point o, double a, as as I said.\n\nThat was released the year after the iPhone, the first iPhone was released. So if you think about, like, how old that is, like, that's December 2008. How much has the web changed since December 2008? And if we're looking at accessibility guidelines, we shouldn't be looking at guidelines that are are that old as what we're we're defining our, you know, our our accessibility guidance on. Like, the the the web has changed enormously since 2008, and and the standards that we're using for our government should reflect that.\n\nSpeaker 0: And I think you mentioned something more up to date would be WCAG at 2.1. Did did I hear that correctly?\n\nSpeaker 1: 2.1. Actually, the latest recommended release, from the from the Web Accessibility Initiative is WCAG 2.2, And that's something that that, Ian three zero one five four nine is is considering for the next release, and it has a lot of additional features in it that are that just that that address things that were were missed in, in the previous, versions of WCAG.\n\nSpeaker 0: So then, it sounds like then if someone has the wherewithal and, like, the the autonomy to be able to do so, going for compliance with, like, the the standard set at the 2.2 version is probably the the best move if you have to pick. Is that correct?\n\nSpeaker 1: Abs absolutely. But but, also, if you you're thinking about how software is being built and how software projects the life cycle of a of a software project, it is always more expensive to retrofit a software project. If you're going to, try and and like, you shouldn't be building for the standards that your your project is is, is required to legally when you're you're, when you're first developing RFP for for a piece of for a digital tool. You should be looking at what the standards are likely to be when throughout the lifespan of your digital product. And if it's gonna take a year or two for the the project to be built and you're hoping it will have a lifespan of five years, well, you know, why would you do anything else other than trying to build towards w k 2.2?\n\nI mean, you could hope that maybe there'll be some grandfather clause that would allow you to go off into, delay upgrading your code to w k 2.2. But but forward thinking organizations should be thinking about how do we build that best user experience. And and already, the best user experience is is has been defined as being WCAG 2.2. So why would you not try and aim for that?\n\nSpeaker 0: I think your answer is a a great segue to the the next question I had jotted down here, which was talking about, you know, how how do you recommend teams ensure that that accessibility work is properly prioritized as prioritized as they go through design and build steps? Like, how do you make sure it's not a thing that's, like, left to the end? Like, as we talk about like, let's do two dot two, for example. Like, how do you make that part of the the process at the start?\n\nSpeaker 1: So so I think that that it's it's important to take a role based approach that that any digital product right now involves designers, content people, front end people, back end people. Like, there's a there's a range of of of skills that are needed to to build a, a modern digital website. And every role has a, has a has a connection to to to accessibility in one way or the other. So a usability per person, there's a number of success criteria that relate relate specifically to usability. There's others related to the visual design, like color contrast, for example, is a great one that that is, you know, a a bigger issue for for, for for visual designers than it is for others.\n\nThere's different steps that are required for those. So so I'm part of a, a w c three, community group called the, called ARMS, the accessible roles and responsibilities mapping, where we're trying to take all of these success criteria and map them against the the standard roles that are are used in our industry. So that's part of it, just trying to diversify the the the the responsibility so it's not all sitting on the shoulders of of one person. Another thing is to bring in your project management focus and making sure that how is accessibility dealt with in in your your project sprints. Are you looking to to see that that, the that when you're you're you're building in a CICD pipeline, that that your your list of URLs that you're you're building are are going to be, including things like like, you know, yeah, a lot of times the CICD pipe pipelines, address URLs that are are were relevant of, you know, a few months or even a few years ago, but you really wanna make sure that that that is actually looking at the the issues that your team is presently building on that would be affected.\n\nSo if there's any changes that are happening, in that, in that code base that they're going to be caught by the CICD pipeline. So in terms of looking at at at project management, and and organizing for, for a successful, accessibility completion. It's also East Web App Champions, somebody who's who's on the team, who's, not necessarily an accessibility expert who's but who's willing to go off and and learn about accessibility, to talk with others, to be able to to to reach out to say, how do we how do we take the best practices that are, that are being used elsewhere and and bring it into to our community? There are frankly so many resources out there on web accessibility, and there's so much to learn about how people interact with technology that that, that currently is just trying to to be aware of what's happening outside your project and finding ways to bring that in so that you can help educate and and make others more, aware about how they can they can produce more inclusive content. And and it's it's it's also probably just changing changing your definition of quality so that quality is you're not producing quality work if your work isn't accessible.\n\nSpeaker 0: Would your approach change at all if you're thinking about it from the perspective of someone who has to kind of influence from the outside? Like, that classic kind of consultant kind of dilemma. Maybe you're partnering with the government agency or even, like, a private organization. You're trying to convince them that, hey. Like, we really need to have accessibility front of mind, as we're putting things together.\n\nHow would you suggest folks kind of approach trying to advocate for that?\n\nSpeaker 1: I think, Carly, it's it's reminding people about how how this is something that isn't isn't a fringe issue. This is something that benefits everyone. Again, if it's if it's if it's, you you know, a quarter of the population has a disability, it you'd have to be a pretty insular person not to to know somebody who has trouble reading or has difficulty accessing the web. Maybe it's it's your your your parents, maybe it's it's, you know, a friend of a friend, maybe it's your colleague, but but there are are going to be be, just just reminding them about about the people in their lives that are are are are having difficulty. And standards like WCAG do not inspire people.\n\nIt does not motivate people to act. But but realizing that this is really about humanity and and, and making sure that that you can communicate your ideas and that they are, that you're you're you're able to go off and have as much future compatibility as possible, whether that's to yourself because, you know, any of us can have a have a disability from from one day to the next. You know, there's my vision last year was was better than it is today. I'm having to go off and start wearing glasses, for for reading now because I, because my eyesight is is deteriorating. That wasn't the case, you know, even a year ago.\n\nSo trying to to keep that in mind that that, but but also in terms of future technologies, like, we, we know that artificial intelligence is becoming more important in our lives, and, and if we can build semantic structures to make sure there's no confusion for humans or for bots, I think that that we're going to be able to make sure that there's there's that that authors are are able to go off and more clearly, communicate their intent to readers and have a more effective communication between people. And even if that involves bots, it's it's it's really, about being able to to to have that clearer communication of of intent, between people.\n\nSpeaker 0: As folks maybe get past that prioritization stuff and get into the work with it, in your experience, what are some of the biggest challenges that teams face when it comes to trying to make their services accessible?\n\nSpeaker 1: In so much of the time, it's it's, it's it's a it's about just a lack of awareness and a lack of knowledge of what what is out there and what is is fairly easy for people to, to implement. So there's a lot of automated tools out there that, that people can use that that, can make accessibility much easier. But then once they learn that, they they they sort of, you know, tend to people tend to lean on those tools and just sort of assume that if you if you get a 100 in Google Lighthouse on accessibility, you're good. But but that's unfortunately not the case. You know, all of these automated tools, they all they can do is is test certain elements of WCAG and determine whether or not there's a failure of that test.\n\nSo all you know from from an automated accessibility scan is that a certain number of the tests passed or failed, but that doesn't tell you if you're you're meeting WCAG because WCAG is much more complicated and nuanced than that. And ultimately, it's it's, you know, helping helping people understand that that you're not building for standards. You're not you're not trying to build for for, for these automated tools. You're trying to build for people. So how do we try and and support those people to see that that, that people with lived experience with disability are really appreciated and for their their expertise, in in how they navigate and work with digital systems.\n\nAnd how do we try and make sure that that the tools and the the user experience, whether it's an oral experience with, with somebody that uses, a screen reader or perhaps it's it's, somebody who navigates with with a keyboard and not not a mouse. You know, how how do we make sure that they they're able to go off and to bring their expertise into this so that that we're able to actually ensure that our our work is is helping real people with disabilities.\n\nSpeaker 0: With how you describe that towards the end, it sounds a bit like it's that classic thing where you can't rely wholly on\n\nSpeaker 1: a quantitative approach or a qualitative approach. You have to kinda take\n\nSpeaker 0: in both and see qualitative approach. You have to kinda take in both and see, like, maybe the testing is your quantitative thing. Like, oh, it gives you some Right. Some signal. But then it's not gonna tell you the whole story.\n\nSo you go out and you try to get personal stories or stories of folks that are, like, engaging with your tool using some of the things you're hoping folks are able to use. Am I kinda like getting that thread correctly where where you're where you're pointing?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And and there's things that, like, automated tools can be used for for so much. I mean, we were we were able to, using Google Lighthouse and and the the web accessibility, sorry, the the web almanac and the accessibility chapter of that, scanned 17,000,000 web sorry, 17,000,000 domains, and I think twice as many, pages because there was the primary page and secondary page that were scanned as part of that. Like, the amount of knowledge that we have, that that we could could gather through automated testing is just in in in for that qualitative sorry.\n\nThe quantitative information is just so much it's it's so impressive and so valuable to get a sense of how how far is the benchmark moving, how how accessible are we, as as a society, or or how how accessible is the web? You can't do that with manual processes. You just you can't gather and organize enough people to be able to assess 17,000,000 web pages on a monthly basis. Like, that's that's, that's just well beyond what what is capable, of of any any society to try and and do. But automated testing is quite easy to do that.\n\nSo how do we try and and pair that? The automated test that can do so much so quickly with the, the human test that actually determine, you know, does it does the rubber how does the rubber actually hit the road? How do what is the actual experience for a user? And and just like other user research or user testing that is done, in the design world, really, that's that's where we need to to to have have more energy, more, more experience for for developers is to sort of get a sense of, like, how how does this actually work with real people, and and how does this actually work with real people with disabilities?\n\nSpeaker 0: And I think it sounds like something folks maybe should pick up on there is maybe there's a a thing where as you're doing your user research, you know, you're testing with individuals. Right? There's probably something about, like, thinking about mindfully how you're representing folks at different ability levels, whether the temporal or or permanent in your testing. Right? So make sure you actually have you're getting the knowledge of what it's like.\n\nAm I kinda hearing that correctly there too?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And and and there are, certainly are are organizations that that are are setting aside a portion of their their user research budget to include people with disabilities. So, you know, if you you would think that if a quarter of the population had a disability, you would you would, use a, you know, that number as a as a the twenty five percent as a reference to say, well, how much of our time and energy are we going to spend, looking at people who who are who have English as a second language or who are, are are are engaging with but but have, a low literacy rate or people who are, who are blind, people like, there's there's a lot of of different kinds of disabilities out there that we could be be doing more research and gathering more information on in order to make sure that we're we're not missing something obvious when it comes to communicating, particularly from governments.\n\nSpeaker 0: And on the topic of the the automated tools they were talking about before, are there any that you would suggest folks look into in particular that they're kind of, like, maybe a a standard deviation above the others in your experience?\n\nSpeaker 1: I do really like, accessibility insights as a tool. This is this is a, an open source tool that that, that Microsoft has put together that really, highlights some of the the best practices of open source because they, they actually use, another open source tool, called, Axe or DQ's Axe, which is a a wonderful accessibility scanning tool that that is used by by Google Lighthouse and and and others. But but they they contribute they contribute back to it. So Microsoft is not only a user of open source, but they're contributing back upstream to those those projects. They're also extending it, trying to make it more useful for for people to to quickly provide a, a snapshot of where, where the problems are and and how to to address them.\n\nA huge challenge with with any technology is or reporting any bug is how do you make it reproducible. And I don't know any other tool that that, does as much to make these accessibility errors reproducible, and provide a simple way to cap to snapshot the URL, the, what else do they capture? The the, the XPath information to be able to access that. The the, the error that's associated with the the page and and and they've just sort of built it together quite nicely for for people to just drop into your Jira tickets and and, make it clear for anyone to be able to say, okay. This is a problem.\n\nThis is how you can replicate it, and here's some ideas about how to fix that problem.\n\nSpeaker 0: Continuing think about the threat of of some of these, like, technical tools that folks work with. At the start of our conversation today, we, you know, we were already getting into content management systems. Kinda talk about Drupal a bit. But in reality, a lot of folks work with some content management system or another, for different web services. Mhmm.\n\nAre there any patterns or things of that nature folks should be looking out for if their primary thing is, like, maintaining or building on top of one of those?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. The the, it it's really useful to to to for any any piece of software that you're using to, do some investigation on the accessibility. Do they have an accessibility statement? Do they have an accessibility team? If they if it's an open source project with a, with an open source issue queue, you can say, you know, what are the accessibility issues that are are being, being talked about, or are are they being addressed?\n\nIf you're, you know, some products will have a, an accessibility conformance report that's public. So that's useful as well to go and say, what are they what is the vendor claiming to be be the accessibility problems that they know about, and how can they be, and how are they addressing them? Those have unfortunately largely become sales documents, with the the VPAT, the Voluntary Product Accessibility Template. We're trying to change that and have worked with GSA to, to build a, a tool called OpenACR. So, the team at Civic Actions went and and built this, both a an open standard, as well as a website editor that allows you to take information and and and and provide it in a machine readable format and also in a nice readable HTML format, and and use an editor that that allows you to to ensure that the content is being produced in a standardized way.\n\nAnd, so so there's you know, we're working to try and and and change how how that is being being managed, but, but these are things that you can look for. So, like, how how in how are they they talking about accessibility? And you don't wanna find it's not that you don't wanna find something that has no accessibility errors because that probably just means that nobody that the project hasn't looked about accessibility or they're covering up the information. You wanted to look at, how are they they dealing with these issues and how are they they, fixing them, and And and are they doing that in a timely manner to make sure that that as issues come up, they are addressed and and and responded to in a in a in a in an efficient manner.\n\nSpeaker 0: If there's folks out there that are listening to us talk about all of this and they're getting really excited, like, man, I I wanna I wanna get in and start doing this work. What are what's some advice that you would give those folks as they're, you know, just trying to get started, maybe taking those first\n\nSpeaker 1: steps? Firstly, there's there's so much to learn here. So there's some great newsletters out there. The Ally Weekly newsletter is is, probably the easiest starting point for people to to understand, accessibility. It has if you sign up for it, there's a, a weekly sort of summary of of issues and and topics that come up that you can learn from.\n\nDavid Kennedy's been producing that for a number of years and it's it's, really, really wonderful how he's he's summarized and organized information. There's certainly other good newsletters as well, but but making sure you've got something in your inbox to to, to keep keep that in mind. Also, we're all using open source projects in one way or the other. Finding some way to contribute back to those, looking for accessibility issues and, whether that's contributing to bug or asking a question or creating a pull request, all those things are useful to make sure that that the the projects you're using are, are are more aware of the interest in addressing accessibility as as as part of their their regular build and release process. So if you're if you're part of that and engaging with those open source communities, it can help a lot.\n\nThe the other thing is just just to, to to learn. There's events too that that, there's a free conference that, that that that DQ organizes called Axcon, and it's two days of free content. You just need to sign up, and you can watch these amazing videos from from leaders around the world. There's, there's a session called Inclusive Design twenty four where they, and they have speakers around the world who do, twenty four hours of programming on accessibility. There's events like GAD, the Global Accessibility Awareness Day, where where there's so much interesting information that is pulled together and shared with the world.\n\nSo, you know, being part of that, engaging online or, finding ways to to, perhaps, you know, pitch a talk of your own. And those are also useful ways to to get involved and to and to learn.\n\nSpeaker 0: As we get close to our close of the conversation, we've had a a fairly wide ranging discussion, I think, on accessibility, accessibility, as folks are kind of, you know, letting it mold in their brains, like, kinda letting it flip thoughts form. What are some kind of couple of things that you'd really like them to take away and kinda bring into their day as they get to the end of the podcast?\n\nSpeaker 1: I I think that that by by picking up something like accessibility or or for that matter sustainability, you take some additional lens to look at the work that you do in whatever your role is and and start to to investigate and learn about how how accessibility and the WCAG standards, will apply to your the definition of of your your work. I think it's it's it's something that that will help individuals become better at their craft, if they they take the time to sort of see how this this, lens to to thinking about technology, can can, can help them, make sure that they are a a better developer or or content creator or designer. These are all things that, yes, it's a nice thing to be able to to do to say that you're contributing back on on something as as important as accessibility, but it's also clear that by by taking the time to invest in this to learn in this area, you're going to get additional skills and become increasingly valuable for whatever role you take on next. So definitely see this as as being, a really important piece of a of a learning journey to make sure that that we're all able to be better at the work that we do.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mike, thank you so much for joining us on Civic Tech Chat. I I have no doubt folks have, some valuable nuggets to take into their work and the way they go about building web services.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thank you so much, Ryan. This is a fun conversation.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thanks for listening to the show. You can check us out on the web at civictech.chat. There you'll find links to our discord and other social media accounts. To keep up to date as episodes come out, subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice. We'll see you\n\nSpeaker 1: next time.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hello.", "start": 0.24, "end": 0.74 }, { "text": "I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us.", "start": 0.88, "end": 9.62 }, { "text": "The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society.", "start": 9.84, "end": 16.605 }, { "text": "We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more.", "start": 17.305, "end": 21.244999 }, { "text": "Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast.", "start": 21.545, "end": 26.97 } ], "start": 0.24, "end": 26.97, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description.", "start": 27.35, "end": 30.89 }, { "text": "Do feel free to go check that out.", "start": 31.27, "end": 33.19 }, { "text": "It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it.", "start": 33.19, "end": 35.67 }, { "text": "It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about Civic Tech.", "start": 35.67, "end": 43.995003 }, { "text": "Mike, thank you thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 44.655003, "end": 48.915 } ], "start": 27.35, "end": 48.915, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you", "start": 49.055, "end": 52.255 } ], "start": 49.055, "end": 52.255, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "do?", "start": 52.255, "end": 52.755 }, { "text": "Certainly.", "start": 53.055, "end": 53.555 }, { "text": "So I I am a, a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, being active in in open source for a long time.", "start": 54.649998, "end": 61.769997 }, { "text": "I am a, open standards and practices lead at Civic Actions, of being involved in accessibility and sustainability issues for a number of years, and I really work to, I believe that the government has a really important role to go off and to address the the serious challenges that we're facing as a as a, as a species and that we need to go off and and learn to to have government, be able to more effectively meet the needs of citizens.", "start": 61.769997, "end": 89.89 } ], "start": 52.255, "end": 89.89, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And what would you say is your personal why?", "start": 91.805, "end": 94.125 }, { "text": "The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do.", "start": 94.125, "end": 98.305 } ], "start": 91.805, "end": 98.305, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think it's just that the the opportunity seeing the potential to to make things better, to be able to to to have an impact on the world.", "start": 99.085, "end": 106.384995 }, { "text": "And, I I mean, I certainly, when I was a business owner, it was really quite interesting to go off and to see that that, the opportunity to go off and have an impact, but but then I became a Drupal core accessibility maintainer, and it's it's fascinating influence a community that that just drives so much the web.", "start": 106.630005, "end": 124.265 }, { "text": "It's it's, it's a really great opportunity to be able to, to explore and to, to really feel that you are able to make an impact that's bigger than the the day to day, grind that we all have to go through.", "start": 124.265, "end": 136.035 } ], "start": 99.085, "end": 136.035, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And you mentioned that Drupal community there, which sounds like something in particular that's kind of drawn, you toward it in your personal why.", "start": 136.90001, "end": 143.86 }, { "text": "What is it about that community that kinda makes you wanna be a part of it?", "start": 144.02, "end": 147.96 } ], "start": 136.90001, "end": 147.96, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, the the the phrase is is, you know, that there's often talked about in the Drupal community is is, come for the code, stay for the community.", "start": 148.26001, "end": 155.645 }, { "text": "And it's a it's a it's a large, very, engaging community of people who who are are developing collectively a content management system.", "start": 156.425, "end": 165.005 }, { "text": "And, and it's it's really quite a powerful tool, and there's some really, amazing people that are part of it that I've learned so much from and, in in a way that I've been able to contribute to them.", "start": 166.06, "end": 176.62 }, { "text": "So, there's the the phrase in in in the open source community that that you're you're standing on the shoulders of giants.", "start": 176.62, "end": 183.375 }, { "text": "And, I just happen to know who some of those giants are and have been able to to learn from them and and benefit from from, being able to to to to work with them.", "start": 183.755, "end": 192.815 } ], "start": 148.26001, "end": 192.815, "num_words": 147.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The mention of, a key web technology is maybe a nice segue into our topic, which is web accessibility.", "start": 193.67, "end": 199.77 }, { "text": "When we use that phrase accessibility, you know, in regards to the web, what are we really talking about?", "start": 200.63, "end": 206.25 }, { "text": "Why is it important to think about that when we're building all these web services?", "start": 206.86499, "end": 210.64499 } ], "start": 193.67, "end": 210.64499, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So so it's really interesting when we're in this this modern digital age that we don't we don't really have a a real sense of of, who has disabilities and how how people are engaging and interacting with the world around us.", "start": 212.06499, "end": 224.92001 }, { "text": "For example, I can't tell you tell if you have any vision issues.", "start": 225.38, "end": 229.06001 }, { "text": "It doesn't look like you're wearing glasses, but you might be wearing contacts.", "start": 229.38, "end": 232.76001 }, { "text": "As far as I know, you may or may or may not be, be somebody who's in a wheelchair.", "start": 233.825, "end": 238.165 }, { "text": "Again, I see you in a chair, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean anything.", "start": 238.86499, "end": 241.825 } ], "start": 212.06499, "end": 241.825, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I just, you know, but but but also from a digital perspective, so much of of how we work and engage with the world is now coming through these digital devices.", "start": 241.825, "end": 251.84999 }, { "text": "And, and I think that that we're we're so often forgetting that that, that there's people who experience the world on different ways than we do.", "start": 252.79, "end": 261.685 }, { "text": "So if you only are writing for one one medium, you're excluding people, and you can be excluding, you know, if you look at permanent disabilities, different different agencies calculate it differently, but but it's often, calculated about a quarter of the population has a disability.", "start": 261.685, "end": 278.34 }, { "text": "Now that may not be, a physical ability that would restrict them from going up and downstairs and whatnot, but it may be something that, like dyscalculia or or dyslexia that makes it difficult for them to read.", "start": 278.88, "end": 290.025 }, { "text": "So it's it's it's, it's something that that's just a greater awareness about how about the human condition and and the importance of building for everyone because we all have a role.", "start": 290.485, "end": 299.465 } ], "start": 241.825, "end": 299.465, "num_words": 173.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, you say 20 like, around twenty five percent of the population.", "start": 299.79, "end": 303.01 }, { "text": "I mean, if you're out there trying to build a web service to try to reach, you know, the the populace, you're probably holding yourself back if you're limiting limiting yourself from being able to reach such a large group.", "start": 303.31, "end": 313.89 } ], "start": 299.79, "end": 313.89, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 314.45502, "end": 314.95502 }, { "text": "Especially if you're looking at things like, you know, seniors.", "start": 315.255, "end": 318.075 }, { "text": "Like, you know, as we grow older, we we develop more disabilities.", "start": 318.135, "end": 322.71503 }, { "text": "Our eyesight starts going down after 40, sometimes earlier.", "start": 322.855, "end": 326.635 }, { "text": "You know, our ability to remember things, our our control our fine motor control, it's particularly important in in aging cultures where or aging societies where where you have a lot of people who who are are less able to go off and engage, and yet have gotten very comfortable and and dependent on the digital tools that they've they've learned to use.", "start": 327.62, "end": 348.465 } ], "start": 314.45502, "end": 348.465, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In the Web Almanac chapter, you mentioned something that's maybe, like, closely related to what we're talking about here about trying to reach communities.", "start": 349.48502, "end": 356.08 }, { "text": "And that you mentioned that, accessibility is not just morally good, but ultimately something that's good for democracy.", "start": 356.46, "end": 362.16 }, { "text": "Can you add a bit more to that that, phrasing you you've kinda brought in here?", "start": 362.94, "end": 366.795 } ], "start": 349.48502, "end": 366.795, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 367.035, "end": 367.535 }, { "text": "So so, just to just to back up on the web almanac.", "start": 367.755, "end": 371.21503 }, { "text": "So so the the HTTP archive, is is a is an organization that's part of the Internet archive, and they have been writing an annual review of of the the web for for a number of years.", "start": 371.27502, "end": 383.27002 }, { "text": "They missed the, 2023 because of, personal issues, but it's a really interesting opportunity to sort of have a snapshot of what what has happened in the year, and what changes have happened, in in the web.", "start": 383.27002, "end": 395.59 }, { "text": "And, they they scanned, over 17,000,000 webs web pages, for for all kinds of issues, on on, the code quality, CSS, security issues.", "start": 395.59, "end": 408.385 } ], "start": 367.035, "end": 408.385, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They're really trying to go off and get a a a good snapshot of of where where the the, the where the web is for that year.", "start": 408.845, "end": 416.05 }, { "text": "And so I I wanted to get involved in the the accessibility, chapter and the sustainability chapter because these are both issues that I'm concerned about.", "start": 416.59, "end": 424.53 }, { "text": "I didn't expect to go off and to to end up authoring the chapter itself when I got involved, but I it it turned out that that I I needed to step up and and and to do that.", "start": 425.08502, "end": 434.625 }, { "text": "But but in terms of your question about it being a, a morally good thing, like, we we really do need to be able to go off and and, to to to speak to citizens and and, to to engage with all citizens, not just the the citizens who are, who are able-bodied, or can use digital technology.", "start": 435.245, "end": 455.51498 }, { "text": "We need to be able to bring people into to the to using this technology and and being able to interact with with government in order to get the services that they're frankly paying for, and should be able to access in in a way that is is beneficial to them.", "start": 455.815, "end": 470.44 } ], "start": 408.845, "end": 470.44, "num_words": 201.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and it's it's, it's no different if you you you we we're, you know, in 2025, we're not satisfied with the idea of excluding women from voting, you know, or or people who are not property owners, or denying people access to to the the the the ability to vote because based on the color of their skin.", "start": 471.38, "end": 489.935 }, { "text": "These are all things that we've all, decided are are are not useful for a modern democracy, And accessibility is is, is just another another one where where we need to have people, be able to engage with with their government in in a in a means that they they they're capable capable of based on their their abilities.", "start": 490.475, "end": 509.03 } ], "start": 471.38, "end": 509.03, "num_words": 118.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think I'm hearing a theme of participation in there and maybe from some different angles.", "start": 510.285, "end": 514.205 }, { "text": "So, obviously, if you're running a government service, well, you want everyone to be able to use it.", "start": 514.205, "end": 519.105 }, { "text": "But if you're not even at the state where you're governing it, say you're someone who's in the political campaigning portion of it, well, you won't be able to engage with your ideas.", "start": 519.165, "end": 526.32 }, { "text": "So you probably should be accessible there so people can actually know what you stand for.", "start": 526.62, "end": 530.64 }, { "text": "If you're a news organization, you know, you're in that kind of branch of things.", "start": 531.10004, "end": 534.22003 } ], "start": 510.285, "end": 534.22003, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, you want an informed public.", "start": 534.22003, "end": 535.74 }, { "text": "So you probably wanna make it so people can actually get access to the things you're producing.", "start": 535.74, "end": 539.255 }, { "text": "If you're someone who kind of does more of the social media thing, you probably hope that network is accessible so that when you kind of try to have that conversation, people can actually get to it.", "start": 539.795, "end": 548.915 }, { "text": "Am I kinda, like, onto a theme that you're pointing to correctly there?", "start": 548.915, "end": 552.7 } ], "start": 534.22003, "end": 552.7, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 553.07996, "end": 553.48 }, { "text": "Like, it it's it it is important on all of those layers, but also people within the government as well.", "start": 553.48, "end": 559.39996 }, { "text": "Like, the the public sector employees that are engaging, with us, they also have disabilities.", "start": 559.39996, "end": 565.035 }, { "text": "It's not simply the the public, it's it's, it's also, the staff of our our our agencies because, because accessibility disability is so prevalent in in in just just part of the human condition that we need to be able to anticipate that and and and prepare for it.", "start": 565.035, "end": 580.91 } ], "start": 553.07996, "end": 580.91, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As we talk about disability, something I noticed in your, writing, you referred to the Microsoft's inclusive design guidelines, which talk about disability as something that can have a temporal context, which I found, pretty interesting.", "start": 582.32996, "end": 594.955 }, { "text": "You know, some situations are temporary, while others might be more permanent.", "start": 595.015, "end": 599.11505 }, { "text": "What's your take on that kind of that approach to thinking about it?", "start": 599.97504, "end": 602.76 } ], "start": 582.32996, "end": 602.76, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I I do really like it, which is, which is why I keep keep promoting it and talking about this this approach.", "start": 603.16003, "end": 608.94 }, { "text": "And it really, you know, there's a misconception that that accessibility is just, you know, about that, that one blind guy who who uses a screen reader and can't access those content.", "start": 609.4, "end": 620.575 }, { "text": "But it's really so much bigger than that, because, you know, our our ability to go off and to to to navigate through through the the, through the through the our technologies does change over time.", "start": 621.03503, "end": 632.05005 }, { "text": "And we all will occasionally have limitations to how we, engage with with digital services.", "start": 632.43005, "end": 637.57 }, { "text": "So for example, if you've, if you're if you're getting an eye exam, you may put get eye drops in your in your eyes that go off, make your vision blurry for a few hours afterwards.", "start": 638.03, "end": 646.695 } ], "start": 603.16003, "end": 646.695, "num_words": 142.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Or if you've got allergies, that's another great opportune another time where where people's vision may not be as good as as, as it is at other times.", "start": 647.475, "end": 655.495 }, { "text": "Even if you've you've got a, a, like, you know we had a a call scheduled earlier where I had a cough, and there's no easy way at this point to be able to go and have a, to use assistive technology to to to completely replicate my voice in a way that would be useful for a podcast.", "start": 656.115, "end": 674.34 }, { "text": "But we postponed that meeting because I had because I was under the weather.", "start": 674.745, "end": 678.505 }, { "text": "I was I was fine to go off and to to do a lot of work, but but if I was gonna be talking for a prolonged period of time, like in a podcast, I wouldn't be able to, to to to do that.", "start": 678.505, "end": 688.81 }, { "text": "So so try to go from there and think about the the the all of those those those issues.", "start": 688.81, "end": 693.31 } ], "start": 647.475, "end": 693.31, "num_words": 164.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also just in terms of the situation where you happen to be in, if it's a a sunny day and you're outside with your phone and you're trying to go up and find the address where you're meeting somebody, and you've got a a light gray text on a light gray background, like, that doesn't work for for most people.", "start": 693.93, "end": 708.95496 }, { "text": "Or if you're on a noisy bar and you're trying to go off and engage with Siri, likewise.", "start": 709.815, "end": 714.77496 }, { "text": "It's not something that is going to work particularly well if you're in in an area that is is is noisy, which is not dissimilar from from from ways that, that people with permanent disabilities are trying to engage with technology.", "start": 714.77496, "end": 729.14 }, { "text": "So it's it's just trying to go up and make it easier for people to to understand how this is just helping everyone, use technology that the way they want to in however they however and wherever that they happen to be.", "start": 729.2, "end": 741.275 } ], "start": 693.93, "end": 741.275, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As we think about this topic, what role, if any, do you envision governments playing in the the goal to improve web accessibility?", "start": 742.375, "end": 749.39996 } ], "start": 742.375, "end": 749.39996, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They have a huge role, both in terms of of their their legislation, which has really been, fundamental to going and improving accessibility around the world.", "start": 750.26, "end": 759.72 }, { "text": "The US really played a enormous role in in taking the, with Section five zero eight, in the late 90s, and the Americans with Disability Act, and and countries around the world have, have really only began to make a, a jump when when it's being clear that there's a a stick associated with, not thinking about, about accessibility.", "start": 760.085, "end": 788.025 }, { "text": "It absolutely should be something that everyone does consider.", "start": 788.805, "end": 791.545 }, { "text": "Certainly for businesses, there's a, there's a huge incentive to, to having, having to thinking about accessibility issues and and serving people with disabilities, whether you're a small restaurant or whether you're you're a a big web company, there there are advantages simply in terms of being able to access more, more people.", "start": 792.245, "end": 813.2 }, { "text": "The the, The UK, has an interesting report where they have, have looked at this and described it as the purple pound, is the the amount of of money that that the the disability community spends.", "start": 813.66, "end": 824.90497 } ], "start": 750.26, "end": 824.90497, "num_words": 183.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And often, it's not just the disability community, but it's but it's also, everyone else that is is, yeah.", "start": 825.125, "end": 833.01996 }, { "text": "It's it's it's it's it's it's people who come with them, the family, the friends, who are also spending money with that person because they want to go off and and and to to support, support them, or enjoy a dinner with them.", "start": 833.16, "end": 845.16 }, { "text": "Like, that that all is part of of this, this survey that The UK has has implemented.", "start": 845.16, "end": 849.78503 }, { "text": "But but before governments actually started to go and and take it seriously and put legislation in in place, a lot of times, most organizations around the world have have have seen it as a as a nice optional thing to have, but not something you've actually invested money in.", "start": 850.645, "end": 866.38 }, { "text": "The other thing that's that's worthwhile is that, governments are are by far the the largest procure of goods and services in the world.", "start": 867.0, "end": 875.33997 } ], "start": 825.125, "end": 875.33997, "num_words": 153.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So if governments were able to get together and to look at how they spend money and say we need you, we need our the people who supply us goods and services to build them so that they're available for everyone and can work no matter what disabilities they may have, then that would be would be a huge thing to try and advance, the the market for everyone.", "start": 875.865, "end": 897.58 }, { "text": "In The US, this is part of section five zero eight, and in Europe, it's part of the the, the Europeans for Accessibility Act, which is coming into effect, this this July, I believe.", "start": 898.04, "end": 909.855 }, { "text": "But, but, but, yeah, procurement is is a huge part of this, trying to build those incentives so that, just like security isn't an option for digital products, we should not see accessibility as an option for for digital products either.", "start": 911.515, "end": 925.3 }, { "text": "That we want to make sure that all of our products can be used, by people regardless of their their abilities.", "start": 925.3, "end": 930.84 } ], "start": 875.865, "end": 930.84, "num_words": 165.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also with that last bit, it sounds a bit like the the government has a role in in modeling proper behavior.", "start": 932.065, "end": 937.125 }, { "text": "So by creating those requirements on in order to serve the government and help the government serve others, it models what the government wishes to see others do with their communities that they serve.", "start": 937.345, "end": 947.32 }, { "text": "Am I kinda hearing that correctly?", "start": 947.32, "end": 948.83997 } ], "start": 932.065, "end": 948.83997, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's it's modeling, but it's more than that.", "start": 948.83997, "end": 950.44 }, { "text": "I mean, it's it's it's, you know, if if all the governments around the world got together and and told Microsoft, we need to go off and have these accessibility tools built in, to all of your products before we're able to buy them, Microsoft would take it more seriously than they do now.", "start": 950.44, "end": 966.245 }, { "text": "And, I mean, Microsoft has has made real inroads, recently in accessibility, but there's definitely a lot of stuff that they they miss in a lot of regressions that happen for for users with disabilities who have to struggle to go out and and have a consistent level of service with, with products even from from Apple or Microsoft.", "start": 966.945, "end": 984.41 }, { "text": "It's still, something that that needs more attention.", "start": 985.26996, "end": 988.41 }, { "text": "But but if the governments were able to put this into the contract and put real teeth into this, then then these the large companies and the small companies would would learn how to go and and to to actually build products where accessibility is not an afterthought, where there is integrated testimonies that serves everyone and and not just government.", "start": 988.785, "end": 1007.56 } ], "start": 948.83997, "end": 1007.56, "num_words": 190.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "When you mentioned bring kind of countries coming together for it, it sounds a bit like you might be pro some sort of, like, international concord between nations that are that are, like, trying to maybe have, like, some somewhat similar frameworks, for what to require of companies.", "start": 1008.82, "end": 1023.955 }, { "text": "Am I hearing that correctly or or not so much?", "start": 1023.955, "end": 1026.135 } ], "start": 1008.82, "end": 1026.135, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It would be I think there's our advantages to that.", "start": 1026.595, "end": 1029.39 }, { "text": "And, but but even within, so many, projects and governments are are are so siloed that that there there isn't really much of an opportunity to get cooperation or collaboration even within a given agency or department to to work on a project and collaborate and use their collective force, even within that agency.", "start": 1030.35, "end": 1054.245 }, { "text": "The US could do so much even on its own trying to, to engage with with the, with the people that they buy technology from.", "start": 1055.025, "end": 1063.23 }, { "text": "And certainly, if there's collaboration on the state and local level to try and and build towards accessible open standards that are are geared towards interoperability.", "start": 1063.61, "end": 1072.245 }, { "text": "I think we have, well documented, you know, secured, like, if if governments are able to go and and to to think beyond the project and and cooperate with each other in order to say we need to raise the bar so that everyone gets better services from government the technology that government buys, then I think we go further.", "start": 1073.425, "end": 1093.36 } ], "start": 1026.595, "end": 1093.36, "num_words": 175.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But but everything's so specific to the project and and so, and there's so little sharing between government agencies about best practices and what they've learned.", "start": 1093.36, "end": 1102.5249 }, { "text": "So, yeah, I think that an international, approach could be fine, but it's not necessary, especially with the government as large as as the American government.", "start": 1102.825, "end": 1110.365 } ], "start": 1093.36, "end": 1110.365, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We mentioned, five zero eight, for example, as as maybe one, like, particular standard.", "start": 1111.59, "end": 1115.85 }, { "text": "What if any others are there out there that you think folks should be striving to work towards as they're, like, thinking about their own services, or is that kind of the the place to be?", "start": 1116.71, "end": 1125.53 } ], "start": 1111.59, "end": 1125.53, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Five zero eight is is good, especially since the refresh that that took place, in, you know, within the Obama administration.", "start": 1126.0549, "end": 1133.6749 }, { "text": "The last but one of the last things that they they did was to to update this the section five zero eight guidelines to to, to align with the international standard, which at the time was w k two point o, double a.", "start": 1134.695, "end": 1147.74 }, { "text": "Since that time, the w k standards have moved on.", "start": 1148.5199, "end": 1152.0599 }, { "text": "And, although the the states presently are are responsible, state legislation or state governments and municipal governments now need to go off and need to be WCAG 2.1, compliant.", "start": 1152.9199, "end": 1165.925 }, { "text": "So there there there's been an upgrade for the states, but not for the the federal government.", "start": 1166.785, "end": 1171.63 } ], "start": 1126.0549, "end": 1171.63, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that that in terms of other standards, the big one that the the The US needs to to look at and learn from is is is Europe and and their EN three zero one five four nine.", "start": 1172.97, "end": 1183.55 }, { "text": "And in in this case, Europe has a a separate standards body that has has created a, a set of guidelines that that is very similar to section five zero eight, has a lot to to learn from it, but but it's also, it's being updated on a regular time period.", "start": 1184.575, "end": 1200.88 }, { "text": "So, you know that there's going to be a standards body that's going to review the w k guidelines and bring this into a European standard that can be, be make sure that that that it is is is being that is relevant and and, still useful for for for the the citizens of Europe to be able to have a modern digital experience and and and equitable modern digital experience.", "start": 1200.88, "end": 1225.455 }, { "text": "Right now, if you're looking at if you're looking at at section five zero eight for the the in the context of the federal government, the guidelines that they they're required to stick towards are, w k two point o, double a, as as I said.", "start": 1226.235, "end": 1239.18 } ], "start": 1172.97, "end": 1239.18, "num_words": 207.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That was released the year after the iPhone, the first iPhone was released.", "start": 1239.24, "end": 1243.625 }, { "text": "So if you think about, like, how old that is, like, that's December 2008.", "start": 1243.625, "end": 1248.125 }, { "text": "How much has the web changed since December 2008?", "start": 1248.265, "end": 1251.725 }, { "text": "And if we're looking at accessibility guidelines, we shouldn't be looking at guidelines that are are that old as what we're we're defining our, you know, our our accessibility guidance on.", "start": 1251.785, "end": 1263.45 }, { "text": "Like, the the the web has changed enormously since 2008, and and the standards that we're using for our government should reflect that.", "start": 1263.45, "end": 1271.71 } ], "start": 1239.24, "end": 1271.71, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think you mentioned something more up to date would be WCAG at 2.1.", "start": 1272.295, "end": 1276.135 }, { "text": "Did did I hear that correctly?", "start": 1276.135, "end": 1277.275 } ], "start": 1272.295, "end": 1277.275, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "2.1.", "start": 1277.5751, "end": 1278.215 }, { "text": "Actually, the latest recommended release, from the from the Web Accessibility Initiative is WCAG 2.2, And that's something that that, Ian three zero one five four nine is is considering for the next release, and it has a lot of additional features in it that are that just that that address things that were were missed in, in the previous, versions of WCAG.", "start": 1278.215, "end": 1300.68 } ], "start": 1277.5751, "end": 1300.68, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So then, it sounds like then if someone has the wherewithal and, like, the the autonomy to be able to do so, going for compliance with, like, the the standard set at the 2.2 version is probably the the best move if you have to pick.", "start": 1301.595, "end": 1314.75 }, { "text": "Is that correct?", "start": 1315.15, "end": 1315.87 } ], "start": 1301.595, "end": 1315.87, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Abs absolutely.", "start": 1315.87, "end": 1316.93 }, { "text": "But but, also, if you you're thinking about how software is being built and how software projects the life cycle of a of a software project, it is always more expensive to retrofit a software project.", "start": 1316.99, "end": 1328.53 }, { "text": "If you're going to, try and and like, you shouldn't be building for the standards that your your project is is, is required to legally when you're you're, when you're first developing RFP for for a piece of for a digital tool.", "start": 1328.905, "end": 1346.83 }, { "text": "You should be looking at what the standards are likely to be when throughout the lifespan of your digital product.", "start": 1346.89, "end": 1352.8099 }, { "text": "And if it's gonna take a year or two for the the project to be built and you're hoping it will have a lifespan of five years, well, you know, why would you do anything else other than trying to build towards w k 2.2?", "start": 1352.8099, "end": 1364.415 } ], "start": 1315.87, "end": 1364.415, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, you could hope that maybe there'll be some grandfather clause that would allow you to go off into, delay upgrading your code to w k 2.2.", "start": 1364.415, "end": 1373.2799 }, { "text": "But but forward thinking organizations should be thinking about how do we build that best user experience.", "start": 1373.2799, "end": 1378.58 }, { "text": "And and already, the best user experience is is has been defined as being WCAG 2.2.", "start": 1379.0399, "end": 1384.195 }, { "text": "So why would you not try and aim for that?", "start": 1384.195, "end": 1386.215 } ], "start": 1364.415, "end": 1386.215, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think your answer is a a great segue to the the next question I had jotted down here, which was talking about, you know, how how do you recommend teams ensure that that accessibility work is properly prioritized as prioritized as they go through design and build steps?", "start": 1387.155, "end": 1400.9701 }, { "text": "Like, how do you make sure it's not a thing that's, like, left to the end?", "start": 1400.9701, "end": 1404.0901 }, { "text": "Like, as we talk about like, let's do two dot two, for example.", "start": 1404.0901, "end": 1406.89 }, { "text": "Like, how do you make that part of the the process at the start?", "start": 1406.89, "end": 1409.63 } ], "start": 1387.155, "end": 1409.63, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So so I think that that it's it's important to take a role based approach that that any digital product right now involves designers, content people, front end people, back end people.", "start": 1410.8151, "end": 1422.515 }, { "text": "Like, there's a there's a range of of of skills that are needed to to build a, a modern digital website.", "start": 1422.655, "end": 1430.04 }, { "text": "And every role has a, has a has a connection to to to accessibility in one way or the other.", "start": 1431.0599, "end": 1440.375 }, { "text": "So a usability per person, there's a number of success criteria that relate relate specifically to usability.", "start": 1440.995, "end": 1447.415 }, { "text": "There's others related to the visual design, like color contrast, for example, is a great one that that is, you know, a a bigger issue for for, for for visual designers than it is for others.", "start": 1447.5549, "end": 1459.78 } ], "start": 1410.8151, "end": 1459.78, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There's different steps that are required for those.", "start": 1460.24, "end": 1462.365 }, { "text": "So so I'm part of a, a w c three, community group called the, called ARMS, the accessible roles and responsibilities mapping, where we're trying to take all of these success criteria and map them against the the standard roles that are are used in our industry.", "start": 1462.445, "end": 1479.15 }, { "text": "So that's part of it, just trying to diversify the the the the responsibility so it's not all sitting on the shoulders of of one person.", "start": 1480.49, "end": 1487.39 }, { "text": "Another thing is to bring in your project management focus and making sure that how is accessibility dealt with in in your your project sprints.", "start": 1488.185, "end": 1497.085 }, { "text": "Are you looking to to see that that, the that when you're you're you're building in a CICD pipeline, that that your your list of URLs that you're you're building are are going to be, including things like like, you know, yeah, a lot of times the CICD pipe pipelines, address URLs that are are were relevant of, you know, a few months or even a few years ago, but you really wanna make sure that that that is actually looking at the the issues that your team is presently building on that would be affected.", "start": 1498.185, "end": 1530.395 } ], "start": 1460.24, "end": 1530.395, "num_words": 202.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So if there's any changes that are happening, in that, in that code base that they're going to be caught by the CICD pipeline.", "start": 1530.6499, "end": 1537.23 }, { "text": "So in terms of looking at at at project management, and and organizing for, for a successful, accessibility completion.", "start": 1538.4099, "end": 1547.585 }, { "text": "It's also East Web App Champions, somebody who's who's on the team, who's, not necessarily an accessibility expert who's but who's willing to go off and and learn about accessibility, to talk with others, to be able to to to reach out to say, how do we how do we take the best practices that are, that are being used elsewhere and and bring it into to our community?", "start": 1547.585, "end": 1569.48 }, { "text": "There are frankly so many resources out there on web accessibility, and there's so much to learn about how people interact with technology that that, that currently is just trying to to be aware of what's happening outside your project and finding ways to bring that in so that you can help educate and and make others more, aware about how they can they can produce more inclusive content.", "start": 1570.3401, "end": 1596.35 }, { "text": "And and it's it's it's also probably just changing changing your definition of quality so that quality is you're not producing quality work if your work isn't accessible.", "start": 1596.35, "end": 1606.985 } ], "start": 1530.6499, "end": 1606.985, "num_words": 209.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Would your approach change at all if you're thinking about it from the perspective of someone who has to kind of influence from the outside?", "start": 1608.005, "end": 1613.59 }, { "text": "Like, that classic kind of consultant kind of dilemma.", "start": 1613.59, "end": 1616.07 }, { "text": "Maybe you're partnering with the government agency or even, like, a private organization.", "start": 1616.07, "end": 1619.5299 }, { "text": "You're trying to convince them that, hey.", "start": 1619.59, "end": 1620.7899 }, { "text": "Like, we really need to have accessibility front of mind, as we're putting things together.", "start": 1620.7899, "end": 1626.1499 } ], "start": 1608.005, "end": 1626.1499, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "How would you suggest folks kind of approach trying to advocate for that?", "start": 1626.3099, "end": 1630.005 } ], "start": 1626.3099, "end": 1630.005, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think, Carly, it's it's reminding people about how how this is something that isn't isn't a fringe issue.", "start": 1630.385, "end": 1636.805 }, { "text": "This is something that benefits everyone.", "start": 1636.9451, "end": 1638.645 }, { "text": "Again, if it's if it's if it's, you you know, a quarter of the population has a disability, it you'd have to be a pretty insular person not to to know somebody who has trouble reading or has difficulty accessing the web.", "start": 1639.345, "end": 1651.51 }, { "text": "Maybe it's it's your your your parents, maybe it's it's, you know, a friend of a friend, maybe it's your colleague, but but there are are going to be be, just just reminding them about about the people in their lives that are are are are having difficulty.", "start": 1651.51, "end": 1669.0 }, { "text": "And standards like WCAG do not inspire people.", "start": 1670.34, "end": 1674.6 } ], "start": 1630.385, "end": 1674.6, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It does not motivate people to act.", "start": 1674.82, "end": 1676.6 }, { "text": "But but realizing that this is really about humanity and and, and making sure that that you can communicate your ideas and that they are, that you're you're you're able to go off and have as much future compatibility as possible, whether that's to yourself because, you know, any of us can have a have a disability from from one day to the next.", "start": 1676.82, "end": 1699.7 }, { "text": "You know, there's my vision last year was was better than it is today.", "start": 1699.7, "end": 1703.62 }, { "text": "I'm having to go off and start wearing glasses, for for reading now because I, because my eyesight is is deteriorating.", "start": 1703.62, "end": 1710.815 }, { "text": "That wasn't the case, you know, even a year ago.", "start": 1711.6749, "end": 1714.075 } ], "start": 1674.82, "end": 1714.075, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So trying to to keep that in mind that that, but but also in terms of future technologies, like, we, we know that artificial intelligence is becoming more important in our lives, and, and if we can build semantic structures to make sure there's no confusion for humans or for bots, I think that that we're going to be able to make sure that there's there's that that authors are are able to go off and more clearly, communicate their intent to readers and have a more effective communication between people.", "start": 1714.075, "end": 1745.6849 }, { "text": "And even if that involves bots, it's it's it's really, about being able to to to have that clearer communication of of intent, between people.", "start": 1746.5449, "end": 1754.6449 } ], "start": 1714.075, "end": 1754.6449, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As folks maybe get past that prioritization stuff and get into the work with it, in your experience, what are some of the biggest challenges that teams face when it comes to trying to make their services accessible?", "start": 1755.95, "end": 1767.49 } ], "start": 1755.95, "end": 1767.49, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In so much of the time, it's it's, it's it's a it's about just a lack of awareness and a lack of knowledge of what what is out there and what is is fairly easy for people to, to implement.", "start": 1769.9551, "end": 1781.76 }, { "text": "So there's a lot of automated tools out there that, that people can use that that, can make accessibility much easier.", "start": 1782.62, "end": 1790.48 }, { "text": "But then once they learn that, they they they sort of, you know, tend to people tend to lean on those tools and just sort of assume that if you if you get a 100 in Google Lighthouse on accessibility, you're good.", "start": 1791.42, "end": 1802.305 }, { "text": "But but that's unfortunately not the case.", "start": 1803.085, "end": 1805.165 }, { "text": "You know, all of these automated tools, they all they can do is is test certain elements of WCAG and determine whether or not there's a failure of that test.", "start": 1805.805, "end": 1816.99 } ], "start": 1769.9551, "end": 1816.99, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So all you know from from an automated accessibility scan is that a certain number of the tests passed or failed, but that doesn't tell you if you're you're meeting WCAG because WCAG is much more complicated and nuanced than that.", "start": 1817.37, "end": 1830.8049 }, { "text": "And ultimately, it's it's, you know, helping helping people understand that that you're not building for standards.", "start": 1831.585, "end": 1838.1 }, { "text": "You're not you're not trying to build for for, for these automated tools.", "start": 1838.64, "end": 1842.88 }, { "text": "You're trying to build for people.", "start": 1842.88, "end": 1844.34 }, { "text": "So how do we try and and support those people to see that that, that people with lived experience with disability are really appreciated and for their their expertise, in in how they navigate and work with digital systems.", "start": 1844.48, "end": 1859.495 } ], "start": 1817.37, "end": 1859.495, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And how do we try and make sure that that the tools and the the user experience, whether it's an oral experience with, with somebody that uses, a screen reader or perhaps it's it's, somebody who navigates with with a keyboard and not not a mouse.", "start": 1859.495, "end": 1875.26 }, { "text": "You know, how how do we make sure that they they're able to go off and to bring their expertise into this so that that we're able to actually ensure that our our work is is helping real people with disabilities.", "start": 1875.28, "end": 1885.285 } ], "start": 1859.495, "end": 1885.285, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "With how you describe that towards the end, it sounds a bit like it's that classic thing where you can't rely wholly on", "start": 1886.385, "end": 1891.385 } ], "start": 1886.385, "end": 1891.385, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "a quantitative approach or a qualitative approach.", "start": 1891.385, "end": 1891.525 }, { "text": "You have to kinda take", "start": 1891.525, "end": 1891.625 } ], "start": 1891.385, "end": 1891.625, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "in both and see qualitative approach.", "start": 1891.625, "end": 1895.36 }, { "text": "You have to kinda take in both and see, like, maybe the testing is your quantitative thing.", "start": 1895.36, "end": 1898.8 }, { "text": "Like, oh, it gives you some Right.", "start": 1898.8, "end": 1899.8401 }, { "text": "Some signal.", "start": 1900.0, "end": 1900.74 }, { "text": "But then it's not gonna tell you the whole story.", "start": 1900.88, "end": 1903.12 } ], "start": 1891.625, "end": 1903.12, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So you go out and you try to get personal stories or stories of folks that are, like, engaging with your tool using some of the things you're hoping folks are able to use.", "start": 1903.12, "end": 1911.8551 }, { "text": "Am I kinda like getting that thread correctly where where you're where you're pointing?", "start": 1911.8551, "end": 1915.395 } ], "start": 1903.12, "end": 1915.395, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1915.8551, "end": 1916.175 }, { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 1916.175, "end": 1916.655 }, { "text": "And and there's things that, like, automated tools can be used for for so much.", "start": 1916.655, "end": 1921.23 }, { "text": "I mean, we were we were able to, using Google Lighthouse and and the the web accessibility, sorry, the the web almanac and the accessibility chapter of that, scanned 17,000,000 web sorry, 17,000,000 domains, and I think twice as many, pages because there was the primary page and secondary page that were scanned as part of that.", "start": 1921.23, "end": 1941.025 }, { "text": "Like, the amount of knowledge that we have, that that we could could gather through automated testing is just in in in for that qualitative sorry.", "start": 1941.025, "end": 1951.14 } ], "start": 1915.8551, "end": 1951.14, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The quantitative information is just so much it's it's so impressive and so valuable to get a sense of how how far is the benchmark moving, how how accessible are we, as as a society, or or how how accessible is the web?", "start": 1951.14, "end": 1965.5851 }, { "text": "You can't do that with manual processes.", "start": 1965.5851, "end": 1967.685 }, { "text": "You just you can't gather and organize enough people to be able to assess 17,000,000 web pages on a monthly basis.", "start": 1967.745, "end": 1975.185 }, { "text": "Like, that's that's, that's just well beyond what what is capable, of of any any society to try and and do.", "start": 1975.185, "end": 1983.37 }, { "text": "But automated testing is quite easy to do that.", "start": 1983.9099, "end": 1985.99 } ], "start": 1951.14, "end": 1985.99, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So how do we try and and pair that?", "start": 1985.99, "end": 1988.205 }, { "text": "The automated test that can do so much so quickly with the, the human test that actually determine, you know, does it does the rubber how does the rubber actually hit the road?", "start": 1988.5249, "end": 1999.085 }, { "text": "How do what is the actual experience for a user?", "start": 1999.085, "end": 2001.4249 }, { "text": "And and just like other user research or user testing that is done, in the design world, really, that's that's where we need to to to have have more energy, more, more experience for for developers is to sort of get a sense of, like, how how does this actually work with real people, and and how does this actually work with real people with disabilities?", "start": 2001.61, "end": 2022.2151 } ], "start": 1985.99, "end": 2022.2151, "num_words": 118.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think it sounds like something folks maybe should pick up on there is maybe there's a a thing where as you're doing your user research, you know, you're testing with individuals.", "start": 2023.635, "end": 2031.38 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2031.38, "end": 2031.78 }, { "text": "There's probably something about, like, thinking about mindfully how you're representing folks at different ability levels, whether the temporal or or permanent in your testing.", "start": 2031.78, "end": 2040.1799 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2040.1799, "end": 2040.34 }, { "text": "So make sure you actually have you're getting the knowledge of what it's like.", "start": 2040.34, "end": 2043.435 } ], "start": 2023.635, "end": 2043.435, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Am I kinda hearing that correctly there too?", "start": 2043.515, "end": 2045.1951 } ], "start": 2043.515, "end": 2045.1951, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2045.1951, "end": 2045.515 }, { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 2045.515, "end": 2045.9951 }, { "text": "And and and there are, certainly are are organizations that that are are setting aside a portion of their their user research budget to include people with disabilities.", "start": 2045.9951, "end": 2055.615 }, { "text": "So, you know, if you you would think that if a quarter of the population had a disability, you would you would, use a, you know, that number as a as a the twenty five percent as a reference to say, well, how much of our time and energy are we going to spend, looking at people who who are who have English as a second language or who are, are are are engaging with but but have, a low literacy rate or people who are, who are blind, people like, there's there's a lot of of different kinds of disabilities out there that we could be be doing more research and gathering more information on in order to make sure that we're we're not missing something obvious when it comes to communicating, particularly from governments.", "start": 2056.075, "end": 2097.54 } ], "start": 2045.1951, "end": 2097.54, "num_words": 166.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And on the topic of the the automated tools they were talking about before, are there any that you would suggest folks look into in particular that they're kind of, like, maybe a a standard deviation above the others in your experience?", "start": 2098.9448, "end": 2110.325 } ], "start": 2098.9448, "end": 2110.325, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I do really like, accessibility insights as a tool.", "start": 2111.8298, "end": 2114.8699 }, { "text": "This is this is a, an open source tool that that, that Microsoft has put together that really, highlights some of the the best practices of open source because they, they actually use, another open source tool, called, Axe or DQ's Axe, which is a a wonderful accessibility scanning tool that that is used by by Google Lighthouse and and and others.", "start": 2114.8699, "end": 2137.565 }, { "text": "But but they they contribute they contribute back to it.", "start": 2138.7, "end": 2141.74 }, { "text": "So Microsoft is not only a user of open source, but they're contributing back upstream to those those projects.", "start": 2141.74, "end": 2148.32 }, { "text": "They're also extending it, trying to make it more useful for for people to to quickly provide a, a snapshot of where, where the problems are and and how to to address them.", "start": 2149.1, "end": 2161.635 } ], "start": 2111.8298, "end": 2161.635, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A huge challenge with with any technology is or reporting any bug is how do you make it reproducible.", "start": 2162.095, "end": 2168.4348 }, { "text": "And I don't know any other tool that that, does as much to make these accessibility errors reproducible, and provide a simple way to cap to snapshot the URL, the, what else do they capture?", "start": 2169.54, "end": 2182.82 }, { "text": "The the, the XPath information to be able to access that.", "start": 2182.82, "end": 2186.555 }, { "text": "The the, the error that's associated with the the page and and and they've just sort of built it together quite nicely for for people to just drop into your Jira tickets and and, make it clear for anyone to be able to say, okay.", "start": 2186.855, "end": 2198.71 }, { "text": "This is a problem.", "start": 2198.71, "end": 2199.3499 } ], "start": 2162.095, "end": 2199.3499, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is how you can replicate it, and here's some ideas about how to fix that problem.", "start": 2199.3499, "end": 2202.89 } ], "start": 2199.3499, "end": 2202.89, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Continuing think about the threat of of some of these, like, technical tools that folks work with.", "start": 2203.91, "end": 2207.99 }, { "text": "At the start of our conversation today, we, you know, we were already getting into content management systems.", "start": 2208.23, "end": 2212.7048 }, { "text": "Kinda talk about Drupal a bit.", "start": 2212.845, "end": 2214.3848 }, { "text": "But in reality, a lot of folks work with some content management system or another, for different web services.", "start": 2214.4448, "end": 2220.3647 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 2220.3647, "end": 2220.845 } ], "start": 2203.91, "end": 2220.845, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Are there any patterns or things of that nature folks should be looking out for if their primary thing is, like, maintaining or building on top of one of those?", "start": 2220.845, "end": 2229.16 } ], "start": 2220.845, "end": 2229.16, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2229.8599, "end": 2230.3599 }, { "text": "The the, it it's really useful to to to for any any piece of software that you're using to, do some investigation on the accessibility.", "start": 2231.22, "end": 2240.445 }, { "text": "Do they have an accessibility statement?", "start": 2242.025, "end": 2243.465 }, { "text": "Do they have an accessibility team?", "start": 2243.465, "end": 2245.165 }, { "text": "If they if it's an open source project with a, with an open source issue queue, you can say, you know, what are the accessibility issues that are are being, being talked about, or are are they being addressed?", "start": 2245.625, "end": 2256.78 } ], "start": 2229.8599, "end": 2256.78, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If you're, you know, some products will have a, an accessibility conformance report that's public.", "start": 2257.96, "end": 2263.845 }, { "text": "So that's useful as well to go and say, what are they what is the vendor claiming to be be the accessibility problems that they know about, and how can they be, and how are they addressing them?", "start": 2264.405, "end": 2274.585 }, { "text": "Those have unfortunately largely become sales documents, with the the VPAT, the Voluntary Product Accessibility Template.", "start": 2275.205, "end": 2282.6602 }, { "text": "We're trying to change that and have worked with GSA to, to build a, a tool called OpenACR.", "start": 2283.6, "end": 2290.58 }, { "text": "So, the team at Civic Actions went and and built this, both a an open standard, as well as a website editor that allows you to take information and and and and provide it in a machine readable format and also in a nice readable HTML format, and and use an editor that that allows you to to ensure that the content is being produced in a standardized way.", "start": 2291.04, "end": 2317.98 } ], "start": 2257.96, "end": 2317.98, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, so so there's you know, we're working to try and and and change how how that is being being managed, but, but these are things that you can look for.", "start": 2318.7449, "end": 2327.545 }, { "text": "So, like, how how in how are they they talking about accessibility?", "start": 2327.545, "end": 2331.9648 }, { "text": "And you don't wanna find it's not that you don't wanna find something that has no accessibility errors because that probably just means that nobody that the project hasn't looked about accessibility or they're covering up the information.", "start": 2332.265, "end": 2342.42 }, { "text": "You wanted to look at, how are they they dealing with these issues and how are they they, fixing them, and And and are they doing that in a timely manner to make sure that that as issues come up, they are addressed and and and responded to in a in a in a in an efficient manner.", "start": 2343.28, "end": 2359.675 } ], "start": 2318.7449, "end": 2359.675, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If there's folks out there that are listening to us talk about all of this and they're getting really excited, like, man, I I wanna I wanna get in and start doing this work.", "start": 2360.695, "end": 2368.74 }, { "text": "What are what's some advice that you would give those folks as they're, you know, just trying to get started, maybe taking those first", "start": 2369.44, "end": 2375.9248 } ], "start": 2360.695, "end": 2375.9248, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "steps?", "start": 2376.505, "end": 2377.005 }, { "text": "Firstly, there's there's so much to learn here.", "start": 2378.305, "end": 2381.025 }, { "text": "So there's some great newsletters out there.", "start": 2381.025, "end": 2382.9648 }, { "text": "The Ally Weekly newsletter is is, probably the easiest starting point for people to to understand, accessibility.", "start": 2383.505, "end": 2390.53 }, { "text": "It has if you sign up for it, there's a, a weekly sort of summary of of issues and and topics that come up that you can learn from.", "start": 2391.31, "end": 2399.49 } ], "start": 2376.505, "end": 2399.49, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "David Kennedy's been producing that for a number of years and it's it's, really, really wonderful how he's he's summarized and organized information.", "start": 2399.95, "end": 2407.005 }, { "text": "There's certainly other good newsletters as well, but but making sure you've got something in your inbox to to, to keep keep that in mind.", "start": 2407.2249, "end": 2414.125 }, { "text": "Also, we're all using open source projects in one way or the other.", "start": 2414.9048, "end": 2418.2048 }, { "text": "Finding some way to contribute back to those, looking for accessibility issues and, whether that's contributing to bug or asking a question or creating a pull request, all those things are useful to make sure that that the the projects you're using are, are are more aware of the interest in addressing accessibility as as as part of their their regular build and release process.", "start": 2418.29, "end": 2440.825 }, { "text": "So if you're if you're part of that and engaging with those open source communities, it can help a lot.", "start": 2441.4448, "end": 2446.4248 } ], "start": 2399.95, "end": 2446.4248, "num_words": 146.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The the other thing is just just to, to to learn.", "start": 2447.46, "end": 2449.62 }, { "text": "There's events too that that, there's a free conference that, that that that DQ organizes called Axcon, and it's two days of free content.", "start": 2449.62, "end": 2458.74 }, { "text": "You just need to sign up, and you can watch these amazing videos from from leaders around the world.", "start": 2458.74, "end": 2463.285 }, { "text": "There's, there's a session called Inclusive Design twenty four where they, and they have speakers around the world who do, twenty four hours of programming on accessibility.", "start": 2463.285, "end": 2473.705 }, { "text": "There's events like GAD, the Global Accessibility Awareness Day, where where there's so much interesting information that is pulled together and shared with the world.", "start": 2474.75, "end": 2482.21 } ], "start": 2447.46, "end": 2482.21, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, you know, being part of that, engaging online or, finding ways to to, perhaps, you know, pitch a talk of your own.", "start": 2482.8298, "end": 2491.545 }, { "text": "And those are also useful ways to to get involved and to and to learn.", "start": 2491.545, "end": 2495.165 } ], "start": 2482.8298, "end": 2495.165, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As we get close to our close of the conversation, we've had a a fairly wide ranging discussion, I think, on accessibility, accessibility, as folks are kind of, you know, letting it mold in their brains, like, kinda letting it flip thoughts form.", "start": 2496.905, "end": 2508.65 }, { "text": "What are some kind of couple of things that you'd really like them to take away and kinda bring into their day as they get to the end of the podcast?", "start": 2509.0298, "end": 2515.69 } ], "start": 2496.905, "end": 2515.69, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I think that that by by picking up something like accessibility or or for that matter sustainability, you take some additional lens to look at the work that you do in whatever your role is and and start to to investigate and learn about how how accessibility and the WCAG standards, will apply to your the definition of of your your work.", "start": 2516.545, "end": 2541.2798 }, { "text": "I think it's it's it's something that that will help individuals become better at their craft, if they they take the time to sort of see how this this, lens to to thinking about technology, can can, can help them, make sure that they are a a better developer or or content creator or designer.", "start": 2541.5798, "end": 2564.8398 }, { "text": "These are all things that, yes, it's a nice thing to be able to to do to say that you're contributing back on on something as as important as accessibility, but it's also clear that by by taking the time to invest in this to learn in this area, you're going to get additional skills and become increasingly valuable for whatever role you take on next.", "start": 2566.0198, "end": 2585.34 }, { "text": "So definitely see this as as being, a really important piece of a of a learning journey to make sure that that we're all able to be better at the work that we do.", "start": 2585.58, "end": 2594.32 } ], "start": 2516.545, "end": 2594.32, "num_words": 218.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mike, thank you so much for joining us on Civic Tech Chat.", "start": 2595.82, "end": 2598.86 }, { "text": "I I have no doubt folks have, some valuable nuggets to take into their work and the way they go about building web services.", "start": 2598.86, "end": 2605.365 } ], "start": 2595.82, "end": 2605.365, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you so much, Ryan.", "start": 2606.305, "end": 2607.2651 }, { "text": "This is a fun conversation.", "start": 2607.2651, "end": 2608.405 } ], "start": 2606.305, "end": 2608.405, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thanks for listening to the show.", "start": 2612.5598, "end": 2614.24 }, { "text": "You can check us out on the web at civictech.chat.", "start": 2614.24, "end": 2617.22 }, { "text": "There you'll find links to our discord and other social media accounts.", "start": 2617.3599, "end": 2621.38 }, { "text": "To keep up to date as episodes come out, subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice.", "start": 2621.76, "end": 2626.8198 }, { "text": "We'll see you", "start": 2627.2441, "end": 2628.144 } ], "start": 2612.5598, "end": 2628.144, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "next time.", "start": 2631.324, "end": 2632.074 } ], "start": 2631.324, "end": 2632.074, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 0.24, "end": 5.54, "confidence": 0.97644836, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Hello. 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Right? So make sure you actually have you're getting the knowledge of what it's like. Am I kinda hearing that correctly there too? Yeah. Absolutely. 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