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      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 0.0,
        "end": 0.0,
        "transcript": "Perfect. That was just about to remind Nathan. Thank you so much for being on top of that. Sweet. So we're recording. For the recording, I'll just say again, welcome everyone to short talks series, Medigov seminar. Today, we have two presenters, and the first is Bartholomew Rhodes. So I will now pass the mic over to him and start up the presentations."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 15.0,
        "end": 15.0,
        "transcript": "Awesome. Hi. Thank you for that introduction. I'll talk about something very mundane if it works and devastating if it doesn't, which is electricity, and the general notion of universal basic affordances. So just to contextualize sort of this conversation, I wanted to remind everybody that we are in the middle of post hurricane Ian power outages. There's an enormous amount of sort of power around the world is subject to instability that's a result of climate geopolitical strife. And in Bangladesh, a glitch, apparently, which plunged the entire country for over thirteen hours into darkness. And so these days, to talk about blackouts is kind of like a misnomer because it's not only the lights that we have to keep on. We have to operate critical infrastructure. We have to refrigerate our vaccines. We have to make sure that, water filtration systems are operating. And Florida is encountering this in a very sort of big way. So instead of talking about universal basic income, which in any case typically would be spent on, things that, are affordances, shelter, electricity. I wanna talk about how can we make universal basic access to enough electricity to charge your phone, communicate with your loved ones, evacuate from a nuclear fallout zone, and so on. A reality a practical reality. And by doing so, we have to solve a rather complex problem that is spanning both the cybernetic sort of angle, the the the cyber system and the physical system as well, plus the political systems that are involved in it. So I wanted to give you a brief walk through through PlurGrid, which is a project that I started this summer this past summer to address some of these issues. You can find us on Twitter at Plurigrid, and I I'll often ask to describe Plurigrid in one sentence. And I have concluded that it is impossible, but it is quite easy to describe it in one equation. And so, the equation is very simple. It's this for an operation of a microgrid inverter. There is this function, right, that is designed to take in the current configuration of your inverter, observe environmental sort of element values, and then up make an update to the configuration of the inverter for the next time step. And it's pretty sort of a low level detail, but that's pretty much this f here is what Plurigrit is about. This too is Plurigrit. Right? So it it finds itself in a more complex set of data series about inverter measurements that you find in a series of distributed energy resources. And so in this case, I wanted to mention that everything we're building has been addressed in a rather general setting by NREL, National Renewable Energy Lab, which has produced enough sort of information about how to operate in a perfect world, a grid of distributed energy resources, which turns out is an optimal model for operating a grid because of information distribution and sort of trust as well. But we'll talk about trust later. Simply, if you take a perfect g r world, there's a way of operating autonomous energy grids in this sort of, like, decentralized setting. It's a nice visual here showing that you have your solar fields, you have your wind farms, your households with solar panels in Ukraine where, you know, the grid is destroyed by artillery strikes and so on. And the problem that they always sort of point out is that there is absolutely no clear set of incentive structures that seem to lead to this perfect world where these energy resources are well balanced, distributed, and organized. And so what we're solving is precisely that problem, which is the bridging of the cyber physical sort of component of this system to where efficiency is gained in a mesoscale sort of fractal of multiscale grid systems combined together in through the interoperable protocols and incentive structures to collaborate on the inverter function specifically, and I'll touch on that in a second, lead to a world where we can design strategies. This is our stack. You're currently looking at it a lot with Julia, A lot of simulation. And as as you can see, a lot of the simulations come from this NRL sort of world. We just combined that with, like, more specific public goods for both the strategic component, which is the open game engine enabled by CatLab. J l, relies on the very esoteric sort of piece of category theory. And then a more practical pragmatic approach that is CatCad. J l, which allows you to have sort of generalized dynamical systems and allow for configuration trajectories. Like, what is the possible set of configuration changes to that inverter that leads to an outcome that is balanced? A lot of this work is documented in the meta gov execute, exit cortex. This is our knowledge graph, certain knowledge measurement system. So I encourage you to play with this and then import this into Obsidian Roam, whatever you use. It's it is it is complex. But why indeed do we care about inverters so much? Well, an answer lies in this paper. It's called the impossible energy trinity energy security, sustainability, and sovereignty in cross border electricity systems. And, of course, you know, we can only have two. Sovereignty in this case comes from the fact that when we provide electricity now and we want to balance out the grid, a lot of time optimizing demand side as well as supply side is necessary. It means that the energy you have stored in your battery and in a stable part of the grid might be useful for balancing the grid downstream where, you know, they have an outage because of the heat wave. In fact, that happened recently in California where the heat wave led to the situation where for a period of time, generation, which means, you know, battery based generation from storage has exceeded the amount of electricity supplied by nuclear power. Right? So a lot of narratives right now center around let's make nuclear a thing again. Well, in fact, we have sort of passed this Rubicon where we have enough renewable energy resources on the way, and we can meet the demands of our grids simply by using more efficient storage. Tesla is doing that with MegaPack. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this project product. It's a powerful battery, you know, that comes from their innovation of battery technology that allows you to effectively generate power and allows you to have flexibility in a very sort of renewable world where, you know, the wind may die, like it is the case now in Germany, or the cloud may, you know, cover the sun. Inverters in that case allow for that sovereignty to exist in a sense that when you have an inverter in your sort of bigger circuit of your grid, it allows you to have control and responsibility as well over the voltage and configuration parameters of a microgrid, which allows you to sort of compose grids at multiple scales from having an inverter in your house to having an inverter in your neighborhood or your kibbutz. You know, it's very much a very flexible system. And so the impossible energy trinity becomes possible if you think of sovereignty in a new way, which doesn't involve sort of narrow way of thinking about nation states as the only sort of custodian of sovereignty. So we are all sovereign in the sense of any one of us is able to take a risk of, you know, generating our own electricity. And if we treat sovereignty in nation states as the union of sovereign sort of microgrids, we then which is the case in places like UAE where, you know, the nation state simply tells you, here's the, you know, mega grid. Do whatever you gotta do, you know, locally. And what we provide is a product that's kind of like an Android to a Tesla MegaPack iPhone, which, allows you to bring your own inverter, your own battery, and simulate that, inside of the power systems, framework together with incentives, together with simulation, to where we will maintain a set of components and allow for this open source public good of composable protocol. Pardon me. That's I'm outside right now. I'm sitting in Cambridge, Massachusetts, so it's a little loud. To where, you know, your your transformers, your inverters, dynamic inverters can be, simulated and configured to the point where, by using our smart grid, you know, your software, an open source industrial control system, if you wish to see it that way, and collaborating with others using sort of private training of models that allow you to understand what is the optimal way for you to operate your inverter that integrates sort of this political component. We can, for the first time, create a cyber physical system that bridges sort of the scientific understanding of negative externalities, which in this case are risk. Right? Because everybody's offloading risk into the grid by taking the most sort of revenue maximizing or self serving outcome like happened in Texas."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 30.0,
        "end": 30.0,
        "transcript": "Bartholomew. Oh, sorry."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 45.0,
        "end": 45.0,
        "transcript": "I'll have"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 60.0,
        "end": 60.0,
        "transcript": "to cut you off in a minute. But if you wanna just finish your sentence."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 75.0,
        "end": 75.0,
        "transcript": "Yeah. I would just say, you know, sometimes we are failing when left to our own devices incorporating, like, it happened in Texas in 2021. In California, where I used to reside back then, we have succeeded because by getting a text message from the government, you know, we disabled our disabled our ACs and reduced our power consumption. So there's a lot involved in operating the grid, but power to the people is our motto. We want to make make it so that you own your grid. So yep. Thank you. That's it."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 90.0,
        "end": 90.0,
        "transcript": "Thank you. Alright. Great. We'll open it up for a discussion. Thank you so much, Barthelmi, for that presentation. It was awesome. Go for it, Pete."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 3",
        "start": 105.0,
        "end": 105.0,
        "transcript": "Thanks. Yeah. Really interested in this as a topic. I'm actually oh, we're in the process of hoping to get solar installed on our roof, so, optimistic to be able to begin contributing to microgrids. But one of the things that I've come to appreciate learning a little bit more about grid management as it exists today is that, you know, the electricity moves essentially instantaneously throughout a network, and coordinating across surges and changes in demand seems like it's something that needs to happen sometimes incredibly quickly. So I'm curious to learn a little bit more about, like, what mechanisms are you all using in the PlurGrid, and how does it address that need for, like, quick decision making and changes?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 120.0,
        "end": 120.0,
        "transcript": "Absolutely. Thank you so much for asking the question. And, yes, that is a great sort of observation is that while we use a lot of metaphors like flow and, you know, downstream, in fact, it's a force. Right? And so there are sometimes situations where people are paid not to generate electricity, to not overwhelm sort of transmission stations. So in our case, we indeed are very much optimizing for the sub five millisecond latency where we have the need to predict capacity and demand and adjust these, inverters, in close to real time. The there's two fold sort of, approaches in that sort of direction. So we have the ability to run codes quickly, and we translate a lot of work from Python to Julia, so which is a compiled language and runs in the sort of lower levels, run time. So that's why we're sort of reimplementing, several components in Julia right now. The second one is just having better models allows for predictions to happen quicker. And so we're using multiparty computation for a broader set of contributors to the training set. So training with private inputs allows us to have and these models are not complex. It's linear regressions mostly. Like, line goes up, power spikes, power line goes down. Whereas predicting a broader trend in electricity is something that it has historically not been done. And most of these models will allow us to understand sort of predictive maintenance and sort of anticipate dynamical system changes. But yeah. So I would say that this twofold approach is very fast, sort of multiscale modular design. You hear about a lot about this right now in sort of this world of, I guess, blockchains. In that case, we see it as a replicated state machine. It's not public. It's private, permissioned, but it has sort of data availability layer, which works with sensors and oracles. And that's really fast transmission of data to fast execution environment that's specialized for that in a very fast consensus layer that's using direct specific graphs. The second component, of course, is the modeling of an overall trend for all for various scales to allow for us to see when this sort of spike or drop in capacity would have take place. But we are very new, and so we're in simulations. And a lot of this stuff will actually play out in production, so I look forward to connecting to see how we can connect you to the program. Thank you."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 4",
        "start": 135.0,
        "end": 135.0,
        "transcript": "So you mentioned in the talk about the the economic and political systems as distinct from the physical systems. And for for for example, kinda like, Bea said, I I had an experience where I was trying to put in solar panels in my place in in Phoenix. And due to the policies of my local grid provider, I lived, like, a few miles away from the part of the local grid where that would be actually effective because the the service provider was not offering good policies with respect to generation despite the fact that, it was Phoenix. So, like, the the potential benefits of, generating, power through solar are pretty high, at least in terms of production capacity. And so when you sort of talk about this, these two systems, right, the or even three, the political, the economic, and the physical, sort of how do you see PlurGrid helping to sort of solve this sort of fundamental mismatches in those systems or at the very least to bring some more power to the the consumers or the participants, us, basically, humans and households, into that to that sort of universe of of policy making?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 150.0,
        "end": 150.0,
        "transcript": "Absolutely. Thank you so much for asking. And, yeah, while they are distinct, they're causally linked. Right? So that's the issue. If you can run simulations of either each of them, you can very easily run three simulations alongside each other and say, hey. We've solved this. Results are good. That's that's we have to really have some way of composing different ontologies, different sort of universes inhabited by these different domains. And so as a result of our work on sort of composable ontologies, and that's a very sort of esoteric way of saying that sometimes we not only have to talk about the same things, we have to find a way of talking about them in the same way. So we we hope to bring this sort of relation of political into the into the operation of the grids. In in in that case, there are there are quite a few approaches, and I it's a lot of these things have to be sort of tested in production. But for instance, labor is one of the important factors. And so we've discussed how to do zero knowledge bargaining by labor unions of electricians in Philadelphia if they want to be able to strike in ways that are not detrimental to the consumer demand. Like, that's a very, like, specific example. More broadly, I think focusing on this sort of mesoscale composable nature of these grids, you can operate a number of sort of open games that revolve around observing specific political events, representing these political events, and seeing the impact of them in simulation, which is why before we go to production in any of these systems, we hope to very definitively provide for causal linkages between these different domains. But yeah. So it's it's it's it's a very simple sort of thing to see working. It's very difficult to arrive at the concrete solution, but I think that's sort of the PluriGrid's approach. Another important aspect of that is value pluralism, which is what Pluri and PluriGrid stands for. And this notion that there's any number of value systems out there, we will always disagree about something. But there has to be a neutral sort of layer on which we can specify our intent, which is at the very basic level that the power stays on and can allow for preferential sort of financialization of outcomes for your grid consumption. It it's very hard to switch from, like, you know, I'm gonna take my wire and wire from into nuclear now that, you know, coal is dead, you know. And in fact, what we have to do is similar to what carbon offsets have to do, which is to financialize a portion of your consumption, a portion of grid participation, and then allow you as a consumer to direct your flow of value towards something that is a bit more aligned with your outcomes and capture that intent through sort of intent matching and the list of predicates that check for whether that's met. But yeah."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 165.0,
        "end": 165.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. Eric? Yeah. Eric has a great point in the chat. Eric, if you'd like to unmute and read it or elaborate and"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 180.0,
        "end": 180.0,
        "transcript": "I need to keep up with chat as well. Sorry about that. I saw the twenty minutes just now. So and and hey, Eric. We recently hung out at the Rick's student, Brooklyn client center here at Cambridge. So in the a lot of folks I know from Deep Webcamp as well. Yeah. Transactive energy markets precisely. Yes. There's actually a lot of research on this. And, yes, indeed, nationalizations or disasters. Like, in France right now, the grid is nationalized. One of the largest energy producers are nationalized. And then there are private companies like Enel that transcends sort of pro state boundaries. And so this transactive energy market effectively is post state. You have international corporations engaging in this sort of new post Westphalian world order where you no longer have to refer to a nation state authority. And, in fact, we hope to provide for cross border grids. We are in discussions now to start the first cross sort of Pakistan, India border grid. And in in Ukraine, where I was born, does not have and hasn't had, like, an actual scale private grid ever, which has led to a lot of corruption as well. And so so bringing from disaster to a political domain almost immediately to where, like, state acquisitions process, if you're a larger state operated energy enterprise, at least to, like, you know, dissolution of, like, civil society undermines the rule of law. And so having a private grid there as well can help with with participation. And, yeah, please feel free to ask in the chat. I have it open now. So any additional questions, if you if you feel shy, I can answer that way."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 5",
        "start": 195.0,
        "end": 195.0,
        "transcript": "I was I was more making the point that it's there's a stickiness in terms of our existing grid to my to my relatively limited understanding, so feel free to tell me why I'm an idiot. But is that there is a an underlying the grid is not well situated to facilitate transactive energy applications on the household level even if we might actually achieve a more sustainable energy equilibrium if those same transactions were facilitated. And so Zargan's question about some of the policy stickiness in this area to me reflects a deeper underlying problem with that our existing grid was very costly to erect and, therefore, to transition to a new form of grid, especially in the eyes of policymakers and especially if those policymakers are deriving rents from the existing political energy economy. But if we have a hurricane knock out an entire grid, not saying that's a good thing. That would be a broken windows fallacy. But it does provide a limited opportunity where you have to reconstruct, and that might be an opportunity to embed certain grid components that facilitate transactive energy in ways that the current grid is preventing is is kind of my subsidiary point, although I like the direction you took it, obviously."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 210.0,
        "end": 210.0,
        "transcript": "Absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you. That is a fantastic point. Exactly. So, like, similar to, like, the grid, there is the problem of availability over the Internet. And so a lot of these cyber physical systems our approach can be generalized towards almost any sort of public good or essential affordance, that that's out there. And what you see now in Florida is, like, press releases where DeSantis goes and talks about Elon Musk supplying Starlinks. You know? And Ukraine had to face that almost immediately after the beginning of the war, to where, yes, the disaster sort of breeds innovation, and, unfortunately, it messed kind of the silver lining. But, yeah, my only regret is that we're not in Florida right now on the ground handing out solar panels. Right? So that's that's that's the speed of things. But I think for that, we are hoping to work with sort of the common space public good funding model to allow for sort of experimentation at multiple levels. Like, well well, we do think in San Francisco and, you know, a lot of places around The US, I think, ultimately, the beneficiary of this will be the global South, will be Ukraine, places that may never have had a smart industrial control system in the first place. And, at the same time, face sort of pressure not to industrialize and grow along the same dimensions we have done in the global North. And so, well well, yes, we can sort of address challenges here and work with consumers in The US. What we're hoping to deliver is the open source public good that sort of the entire world can use. And in many places, we are encountering almost, like, zero existing regulatory backlash. And, like, if we go to to do sort of developing nations or so called developing nations, we can have a lot of success there. In The US, this per consumer model has sort of limitations and, like, we want our models to work in bear markets and want our models to work in the complete absence of the existing infrastructure as well. So that's a fantastic point. And I also put point out in chat, there is a if you are growing a grid from scratch, which is kind of a nice thing, I'll very briefly share it. Sorry. I have to probably seed floor to the next speaker at some point. But there is this book called The Grid, The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future that I highly recommend. But if you're starting from scratch and you are not letting some of the haphazard ecology of the energy to to to to take its place with within socioeconomic systems with, like, thoughtless thoughtless approach, if you had like, a thoughtful approach, NREL has provided you with a scalable integrated infrastructure planning model. So whoever is building a new grid, I highly recommend checking this out. And indeed, simulation is sort of a big portion of that as well. So yeah. Thank you for the question."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 225.0,
        "end": 225.0,
        "transcript": "Awesome. And it looks like Marcel sent along an article that he worked on, which looks super interesting. Electrical consumption forecasting, a framework for high frequency data."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 240.0,
        "end": 240.0,
        "transcript": "Yes. We have unabashed"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 6",
        "start": 255.0,
        "end": 255.0,
        "transcript": "self promoting, of course."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 270.0,
        "end": 270.0,
        "transcript": "That's what we're here for. Awesome. Marcel, if there's anything you wanted to add to your comment in the doc, we have about thirty seconds left before we'll move on, but wanted to give you some space."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 6",
        "start": 285.0,
        "end": 285.0,
        "transcript": "No. No. I I thank you. I appreciate that. But I'll be reaching out to to Barton as well to see if maybe there's some some way we can collaborate a little bit on our work."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 300.0,
        "end": 300.0,
        "transcript": "Absolutely. It's a common sense of planetary scale public goods, so it's already yours. You're just learning about it today. So, definitely, let's connect. I'm on MetaGuff's luck."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 6",
        "start": 315.0,
        "end": 315.0,
        "transcript": "Beautiful. Thank"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 330.0,
        "end": 330.0,
        "transcript": "you. Cool. And Zargam shared an article as well. Alright. Thank you all so much. This was a lovely presentation and discussion. I definitely learned a lot. So thank you, Barthel and me and everyone for your comments and questions. And now we'll be switching gear gears to think about DAOs and roles in DAOs, presentation by Nick Naraghi, who is here. And thumbs up. Ready? Sweet. Awesome. Passing the mic to Nick."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 345.0,
        "end": 345.0,
        "transcript": "Sweet. Thank you, Bartholomew, for awesome presentation and wonderful questions. Very cool. Honored to be here today. I have learned so much from the seminar and about a thousand and and gone deeper and deeper into the space in part because of people I've met here. So, yeah, really, really excited to get your feedback on on what I've been working on. It's called hats protocol, and it's all about giving people in Dows roles, roles, authorities, specific responsibility, and accountability on on those roles. So this is to me, in the context of this seminar, it is a an advancement of decentralized governing. There are a number of people who are working on similar solutions or or different parts of kind of, like, a coordination stack, which I think will advance DAO DAOs as tools for decentralized governing broadly. So I'll I'll kind of zoom into the specific solution that we're working on, but we can contextualize any questions and this this and there's a broader scope of where is the Zeitgeist or decentralized governing today, and and how is this a piece of that? So if I if I press this slideshow button, will that actually is this still showing up on the screen share?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 3",
        "start": 360.0,
        "end": 360.0,
        "transcript": "It's loading. It's showing."
      },
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        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
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        "end": 375.0,
        "transcript": "Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. So HaaS protocol. Basically, the problem that we're seeing in DAOs today is, you know, you have this full consensus governance model with the, you know, compound governor bravo or, like, just token voting generally, and you have either kind of, like, the micromanaging angle, which kind of looks like hierarchies or, like, Dinos, Dows in name only, or no management at all, no structure, no roles, and kind of just vibing to get things done. And that's not reliable. So we're hoping that we could sort of advance the space by delegating the right responsibilities to individuals and small groups of of people in DAOs with the right level of granularity. So it's not about general delegation of all governance. It's not about one off tasks of individual bounties. It's really like a role. And roles have existed in human organizations for the last ten thousand years, and I anticipate that they're gonna exist in decentralized organizations as well. Hats are, tokens. They are the point of them is to empower contributors with the autonomy necessary to get their work done, and there's three components of this, the way that we think about it. There's the context. So, like, what knowledge do I need in information streams, access to information that I need to get my work done in a DAO. What authority do I need? So, like, the right access to post things, to send things out from DAO channels, maybe signing transactions on behalf of the DAO or on behalf of a multisig that belongs to the DAO, and then accountabilities and rewards. So, for the work that I'm responsible for, you know, who who can hold me accountable? What penalties can I receive for not getting my work done? Whether that's reputation or some staked amount of of ETH or DAO tokens or something else. And then what, you know, what is the reward scheme, the incentive basis for me to actually get my work done, also in terms of reputation or upside or whatever it might be? So one of the ways we've been talking about hats is kind of as a smart token. And what I mean by that is it's a it's a token that appears in a wallet under only certain conditions. So we have I'll get to that when we talk about eligibility, but just to kind of talk about the architecture of what a hat is. Hat hats dot sol is a contract, a multi tenant contract that's published right now to Gnosis chain, but it can be published to any EVM chain, for, any any wallet, but particularly DAOs to create token IDs that can then be minted to individual wallets and connected to token gating tooling such that the individuals who have those tokens in their wallets get the things that I mentioned on the on the previous slide, whether that's, Discord role or multisig signing authority or the ability to to see, a DAO specific Wiki. You have the wearer, which is the term for the person who has the token in their wallet, and the admin, which by default is gonna be the DAO, but can also be you can have multiple layers of admins, 28 in our architecture. The eligibility is, is an address. When you create the hat, you enter in the eligibility field the parameter of any address. So it could by default, we'll make that the DAO. So the DAO is determining the someone's eligibility or ineligibility to be a wearer of a hat, But you can also make that a a a contract. So there's this element of manual to programmatic delegation of hats, and that's kind of what it what I mean by smart token. It's it's a token that appears in a wallet under only certain conditions and then grants that wallet access, under those conditions. And the toggle is, for turning the hat itself on and off. So eligibility is whether a wallet has the token or not. A tote toggle is whether all hats of this type are are on or off. This is gonna be a little bit too much depth for a five minute presentation, but this is a little bit of the architecture that we're working with. If this is open source software, by the way, so I'll also drop the GitHub link when I'm done. Just as some examples, hats can be combined with the token gate in order to grant the source all sorts of authorities. So we think about kind of the the token gating for roles and authorities in DAOs as having a token component and a token gate component. When we combine those two, that's how you get access in a DAO native way. So hats are really all about making sure that people have the right tokens and the right wallets. And then we, you know, enter it's a ERC $11.55. So it actually interacts natively with Clabland, Guild, the Zodiac modules from NOSISSAFE, and it can can grant all sorts of authorities like Discord roles, Wiki access. Again, kind of a broader set of examples. I won't be able to go into all of these, but, commitment to individual projects, signer on a multisig, access to a team workspace. You can have explicit reputation incentives or disincentives, financial incentives, disincentives, like I mentioned. And then just this piece here on the progression from manual to programmatic delegation, or mechan humanistic to mechanistic delegation. What you've got is this idea of adding smart contract logic into the hat, over time so that the it become the the slide is not really that helpful to explain the concept briefly. But, basically, you might start off by giving giving a hat to someone for a discord role or access to a wiki or database from the DAO via a governance proposal in the DAO. And then once that kind of ossifies, that structure is something that is well expected or there are expectations as to who should get those hats, like having a certain number of reputation a certain amount of reputation or certain number of contributions that you've made from the DAO made to the DAO or you've generated a certain amount of compensation that the DAO has given you. You can use those as parameters to grant a hat to, an individual programmatically. And we that that's we imagine that there's gonna be a whole ecosystem of individuals who are creating, additionally open source eligibility contracts and toggle contracts that there's individual you know, DAOs across the ecosystem can plug and play and compose and use to kind of make this a more efficient and better coordination over time. I see there's already some yeah?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 390.0,
        "end": 390.0,
        "transcript": "You'll your presentation is just about ending. So if you don't mind wrapping it up, and then we'll open for discussion."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 405.0,
        "end": 405.0,
        "transcript": "That's I I can go into a lot more detail. So that's the high level version. Yeah. Let's let's get into questions."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 420.0,
        "end": 420.0,
        "transcript": "Sweet. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, Zargan was the first one to ask this question."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 4",
        "start": 435.0,
        "end": 435.0,
        "transcript": "In the chat. I'll start to summarize. So I was asking about the accountability and rewards being in the same bucket here, and then my little dissertation is just about, like, breaking apart some of the concepts. Like, the notion of roles is a sort of policy making thing. The notion of how one oversees those roles are sort of measures whether people are doing their jobs in order to hold them accountable separate from the notion of rewards associated with the sort of those observations about whether someone is doing their their role or doing it well as separate policies within a policy agenda. So I'm basically asking if there's a particular reason that all that stuff is bundled into one bucket since in practice, it's difficult to govern if it's all jammed together."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 450.0,
        "end": 450.0,
        "transcript": "Totally. That's a it's a wonderful question. It it it is bundled for the purposes of explanation, but not technically bundled. So, hats is, hats is taking responsibility actually for the accountability piece, but not for the reward piece. So what you see on the screen, context thirties and accountabilities and rewards are kind of like the the things that hats get plugged into. And in much the same way that we're not creating, you know, we're not creating a Discord clone. We're not creating a Notion clone or Clarity clone ourselves. We're composing with those tools. We're we would compose with tools that people are using for both accountability and rewards. But they're the revocation of a hat is is built directly into the eligibility contracts. So we we kind of we kind of make it possible to build that piece directly in the hats. Right now, we're not doing anything on, the rewards, actually, like funneling rewards through a hat or anything like that. But you could, for example, get access to a coordinate give circle that would allow you to receive rewards, because you were wearing a hat. So kind of like a token gated, reward scheme. But, yeah, I think your question is making me think that maybe these shouldn't even be bundled in the in the explanation."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 3",
        "start": 465.0,
        "end": 465.0,
        "transcript": "I have a question for you. As someone who has not done any work with DAOs, unlike many of the people on this call, I'm curious to hear how you talk about what value this offers to folks or, like, what parallels you see people connecting to if they don't already have familiarity with DAOs and some of the challenges that exist in the space?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 480.0,
        "end": 480.0,
        "transcript": "Totally. Yeah. That's a great question. So, a DAO is basically a tool for sharing power and resources amongst a group, in a in a way where we can make credible future commitments together to one another about the ways that we'll share the power and resources. We do a lot of these types of things in any organization. So a hat, you know, the the whole metaphor of a hat is like wearing many hats or I'm taking off one hat and putting on another because I'm, you know, I'm doing marketing work versus I'm doing, you know, you know, writing code. And I I think that people are pretty used to this idea of, having a a distinct set of responsibilities or being, directly responsible for a a a particular role in in a traditional organization might call it a job, right, or or a role. And, I think that we're just translating some of that into I I I really believe that as we transition into DAOs becoming more useful and sometimes replacing traditional organizations that these types of structures, we will kind of like they will reemerge or, like, recapitulate in the decentralized organizing structure even though they're they're similar to traditional organizing, components. But they're gonna look slightly different because the context is fundamentally different."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 495.0,
        "end": 495.0,
        "transcript": "Eric I'm seeing compared yeah. Eric brought up the king's two bodies problem, which then be asked him to elaborate on. And, yeah, I'm wondering, Nick, if you wanna respond to the comment. And, yeah, I I feel like I have a similar question about, like, the sort of longevity of a hat and, you know, someone earns the hat and then therefore, like, what does the sort of upkeep of that role responsibility mean for that individual? But maybe answer Eric's question first or kind of respond and and then we can take more questions on that."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 510.0,
        "end": 510.0,
        "transcript": "Definitely. I think I think it actually is pretty interesting because one"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 2",
        "start": 525.0,
        "end": 525.0,
        "transcript": "of the way one of the ways we"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 540.0,
        "end": 540.0,
        "transcript": "talk about this, Kia from Gnosis Guild kept talking about heterarchies, and that really got in our heads about how to build what what DAO should look like and how to build hats to support that. And hierarchies have been a bit rejected in DAOs because people are so enthusiastic. You know, they're so antagonistic of traditional organizations and rebelling against that. But hierarchies are not bad. It's it's the capture of power and ossification of hierarchies that's bad. So we tend to think about the possibility of hierarchy in DAOs as more of a hierarchy. So what is the the ability to dynamically create and melt hierarchies for specific purposes. And hats are really aligned with that because we can put you know, it's easy to put term limits, logical conditions on, how long someone has a hat for. And, of course, there's still gonna be mistakes that are made in the the social political infrastructure of creating, these hats, and the capture, of organizations that are using hats, because we fail to see the implications. But our hope is that we can kind of emulate we'll be able to fork trees of hats to move from one organization to another if you wanted to recreate it. So putting in some fail safes and then just doing kind of ecosystem wide collaboration around the structures that are necessary and and work sustainably and prevent capture or or are capture resistant in in DAOs that are using this type of role structure."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 555.0,
        "end": 555.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. Thank you. Lance, you I see you have your hand raised. Would you like to unmute and ask your question?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 8",
        "start": 570.0,
        "end": 570.0,
        "transcript": "Yeah. For sure. I really appreciated the presentation. I learned a lot. I was just gonna ask about when hats are assigned, does the the owner of the DAO, like, a multisig, do they have to sign a transaction each time a new role is assigned in order to transfer the NFT?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 585.0,
        "end": 585.0,
        "transcript": "Totally. So that's a great question. There is, in in the base case, right, we're starting starting to talk about this eligibility contract and the motion from, manual to programmatic or humanistic to mechanistic, development of role, assignment. In the base case, the DAO is using a governance proposal every time it wants to assign hats. And it can do multiple at once, but generally speaking, anytime there's an event of hats going into wallets, roles being assigned to individuals or or small groups, that happens via the standard DAO governance process. Over time, as you add the eligibility contracts that have the programmatic logic for, assignment, then someone could come and say, hey. I you know, this this hat, that allows me to get into kind of the inner circle of, you know, imagine imagine if, you had to attend five Medigov seminars in order to get into a Slack channel for people who, you know, were, you know, having a more private discussion or, of course, you know, that's the baseline for starting to organize support organizing of the seminar. That could be written into a contract where I don't know how you get that data, but imagine you could get that data on chain. The that contract, that eligibility contract could look and say, oh, okay. Yeah. You've you've got the five co apps for the seminars or whatever, and now you're able to just claim that hat. It doesn't have to go through a DAO vote. But the but it would have had to be deployed and created by the DAO in the first place."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 8",
        "start": 600.0,
        "end": 600.0,
        "transcript": "Got it. That really helps. Thank you."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 615.0,
        "end": 615.0,
        "transcript": "Absolutely. Definitely with regard to Mintable based on execute badges. Just to comment on that, I was reading Primo's piece on executions, and I just saw the Medigap institution stuff. Badge any sort of badges are really great primitive to create hats. Hats are can take lots of different data inputs and use them in the eligibility contracts to mint hats programmatically. Institutions, I think, are really important, aspect of pulling off chain data into on chain and also taking on chain data and making it, readable to the external world. And I I think that that's a very, very important data source, for these types of organizations and and role assignments within them."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 4",
        "start": 630.0,
        "end": 630.0,
        "transcript": "It would probably be fun to try some, try some interoperability tests with the execute badges. We've got some test contracts deployed already, and we've been we've been playing around with the badge structures. So figuring out the, hats protocol, sort of interoperability would would be a nice little, like, work session at some point."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 645.0,
        "end": 645.0,
        "transcript": "Let's do it. I'm I'm a 100% down for that."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 4",
        "start": 660.0,
        "end": 660.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. We coordinate in the meta gov Slack, I think. Just maybe drop a message and say hi in the in the institute channel."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 675.0,
        "end": 675.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. I'll jump in. I just I know, Tyler, you've got your hand up. I wanna get to your question. But I'll say as a as a segue there that, like I mentioned, hats is open source software. I put the GitHub link in the chat. The branch you wanna look at right now is is beta. That's kind of our latest deployment to Gnosis chain. And all of the you've got a whole read me in here that'll give you all the technical details about the project and eligibility toggles, things like that. Tyler, did you still have a question?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 9",
        "start": 690.0,
        "end": 690.0,
        "transcript": "Yeah. I had a question about admin and the admin rights and delegation. So is the case where there's, like, a single, like, ERC one fifty five contract for the DAO, and and there's a single admin for all roles within that DAO. Is that how it works?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 705.0,
        "end": 705.0,
        "transcript": "Okay. Great question. There's a there's a single contract per chain that all DAOs can use to mint hats. And the first step in order to do mint hats is to mint themselves a top hat. We we that's, like, the root of the tree. You anyone can mint themselves a top hat, and once you do that, you put you would put the top hat as the admin for the subsequent hats that you're creating."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 9",
        "start": 720.0,
        "end": 720.0,
        "transcript": "Got it. So I I guess my question for that is that, like, is there a concept of delegation? So, for example, like, let's say you have, like, your DAO, you have a social media team. You don't want your big DAO voting on, like, who's the social media manager, but you want, like, your social media team to do that or your marketing team. Can you, like, delegate that that responsibility, the admin rights to the sub DAO?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 735.0,
        "end": 735.0,
        "transcript": "Yeah. 100%. Yes. So there's there are as many layers of delegation as you want, and the the parent can delegate, to the child or the grandchild grandchildren, any any authorities. That's kind of, like, the the whole point of hats. If you want to if you want the eligibility contract of, like, two hats down to come from so so in your case, if you want the social media team, which could be represented by hats, to be the voters on who is, like, the leader of the social media team, which is a a common use case. It's, something we we say, like, leader of a work stream or, like, elected leader of a work stream. You would just have to program that into the eligibility contract that you're using for the, work stream leader hat or give that authority to the the kind of sub DAO of the social media team in order for them to elect it via whatever DAO structure or multisig that they have together. So to kind of take that a step further, if you imagine that there's a a governor you know, compound governor, Bravo, DAO, or a Moloch DAO at the top level that has granted social media rights to a multisig with some maybe some budget, and then you have hats that represent the team member of the social media team and give you multisig signing authority on that social media multisig. And and then you gave in the DAO also gave the authority to elect a work stream leader to that multisig. Then the individuals on the multisig would send a transaction that said, hey. We want to elect Tyler as the work stream leader. They vote in their kind of, you know, three out of five structure or whatever they have. And then if that transaction goes through, then that hat would get minted to to you. Does that make sense?"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 9",
        "start": 750.0,
        "end": 750.0,
        "transcript": "That does make sense. Yeah. Cool. Thank you."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 765.0,
        "end": 765.0,
        "transcript": "Seth, you got one? Oh, Chris too."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 780.0,
        "end": 780.0,
        "transcript": "Chris, if you wanna unmute and elaborate or"
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 10",
        "start": 795.0,
        "end": 795.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. Yeah. I suppose we kinda dealt with delegation. I was interested in conflicts, like conflicts between well, either between kind of delegated roles, like, within a particular, like, within a particular tree of a delegation, but also conflicts between roles kind of across the across the heterarchy. Like, it feels simple if what's what's being delegated is, say, control over funds, and then it's obviously, there's only there's only so many funds to go around. And if part is delegated, then it's no longer available to be delegated or else you can't really have the same kind of conflict in that way. But as soon as it's as soon as it's, like, rolls with scope, we start to get maybe the same scope has been defined in different places and in fact overlaps, and we'll get conflict. And so you have well, I mean, a lot you know, different different governance schemes will have their their different approaches to trying to avoid that. But, yeah, I'm just interested what what what conflict looks like."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 7",
        "start": 810.0,
        "end": 810.0,
        "transcript": "It It's a brilliant question. It's probably one of the biggest gaps in our in our architecture right now. You know, we've really been designing this as a as a primitive for tokenized authority in DAOs and hoping that people will kinda it will be like a petri dish for emergent organizational structures and and, you know, composable tooling that we can fork and reuse. But it doesn't answer the question of, how do you do this well? So I think what you're getting at is kind of coming from the governance side. It's like, okay. In order to do this well, we must be able to manage, authority delegation conflicts. I don't think we have a direct answer for that. I'm I'm excited for how we will approach that. But I love you I also love your help and feedback on on how we can do that well or if it would be useful to implement something like that in the protocol itself."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 10",
        "start": 825.0,
        "end": 825.0,
        "transcript": "Cool. Yeah. I'd love to talk about that more."
      },
      {
        "speaker": "Speaker 1",
        "start": 840.0,
        "end": 840.0,
        "transcript": "Awesome. Well, we are up on time. Seth said, can I make an analogy to Wikipedia's roles? Very fine grained ACL style permissions, which is something we can think about as a group generally. Or Nick, yeah, thank you for sharing your presentation, and also, you know, feel free to follow-up on any of these things in the Medigov Slack channel. So we can follow-up on these discussions and, you know, DM each other if you have any follow ups. So thank you all so much for joining us today. This was a lovely, short talk series, a little bit less short talks than normal. But I feel like we got to dive deeper into these really, really fascinating topics. So thank you so much to Bartholomew and Nick. And if any if everyone doesn't mind, we usually do this at the end. We unmute and we clap for our presenters. So let's clap for the folks, and then we'll we'll end the the call. So thank you all so much for joining, and unmute and clap."
      }
    ],
    "summary": null
  }
}