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Was das ist und welche konkreten Beispiele es gibt, darum geht es heute. Wir sind zurück aus 1 kleinen kreativen Podcast Pause mit frischen Themen und dem bewährten Team. Ich bin Franziska Walser und bei mir im Studio sind Alinker Roter, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT, das Fraunhofer Institut FOCUS mit Schwerpunkt Verwaltungstransformation und Digitalpolitik. Hallo, Erlinker. Hallo Franziska. Und Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des ÖFÖT. Hallo, Mike. Hallo, Franziska. Wir sprechen heute mal wieder auf der Basis von 'ner aktuellen Veröffentlichung. Da hast Du mitgearbeitet, Maik und der Titel ist Outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung, Hebel im Betriebssystem der Verwaltung. Ich bin da über diese Betriebssystemmetapher gestolpert. Was wär denn Teil des Betriebssystems in dieser Vorstellung? Ja, mit der Betriebssystem Metapher haben wir sehr gerungen. Mhm. Es gibt ja auch andere Verwendungen dafür, zum Beispiel wird gerne gerade auf lokaler Ebene bei Kommunalverwaltung vom Betriebssystemen und des Gemeinwesens auf lokaler Ebene gesprochen. Das ist genau nicht unser Punkt. Okay. Und deswegen haben wir son bisschen damit gerungen, ob wir den Begriff wirklich verwenden wollen. Uns geht es darum, wie funktioniert Verwaltung intern? Also welche Regeln gibt es da? Ja. Welche Geschäftsverteilungspläne, welche Geschäftsordnungen und so weiter und so weiter. Nach welchen Prinzipien funktioniert die Verwaltung intern? Und das ist unser großes Thema. Also wie bei 'nem Computerprogramm diese diese Logiken oder Algorithmen, die da so eingeschrieben sind und die man dann aber eben auch verändern kann, so bisschen in die Richtung, oder? Genau, im Grunde konnte man das so sehen, dass die Verwaltung oder dieses Betriebssystem die einzelnen Elemente deines Rechners orchestriert und genauso versuchen wir auch auf die Verwaltung zu gucken. Und das ist wirkmächtig, obwohl da ja Menschen arbeiten sozusagen, aber das funktioniert trotzdem, dass man sich mal auf die Regeln guckt und nicht auf die Teammik oder so. Wir haben ja Gott sei Dank eine regelbasierte Verwaltung. Also die Regeln sind ganz zentral für Verwaltungshandeln, natürlich. Ja, okay. Alinka, kannst Du mal kurz sagen, was passiert denn, wenn's nicht gut läuft, also bei diesen Programmen Regeln? Also grundsätzlich passiert dann ganz viel, daher könnte ich jetzt so viele Beispiele nennen, das ist schwer, das jetzt auszuführen. Vielleicht sollte man auch vorweg sagen, ganz oft funktioniert das auch sehr gut. Also wir wollen jetzt gar nicht mit 'ner Generalkritik starten. In diesem Papier gehen wir grundsätzlich davon aus, dass im Moment die Problemlösungsfähigkeit des Staates und damit eben auch die Problemlösungsfähigkeit der Verwaltung infrage gestellt wird oder angezweifelt wird, vielleicht nicht vollumfänglich, aber zumindest in Teilen. Wir nehmen wahr, dass das eine Wahrnehmung in der Bevölkerung ist und zum Teil aber auch in den Behördenleitungen selbst. Also intern und extern. Genau, also wie gut kann der Staat und damit eben auch die Verwaltung spezifische gesellschaftliche Probleme wirklich lösen? Ich würde sagen, das ist unser ganz grober Ausgangspunkt. Ja. Was ja auch daran liegt, dass es einfach diese Multikrisenzeit gibt. Wir haben Fachkräftemangel. Also da gibt's ja auch andere Faktoren, aber wie gesagt, das liegt eben zum Teil auch an diesem Betriebssystem oder zumindest man kann man's lösen, indem man über diese Hebel geht, die ihr da identifiziert habt. Genau, das kann ein Ansatzpunkt sein. Mhm. Okay. Ja, da geht ja sogar noch 'n kleine Schrittchen weiter. Mhm. Wir sagen, ohne diese Hebel umzulegen Genau. Nützt vieles andere dann auch nicht so, wie man es sich erhoffen würde. Also man kann sehr schöne Gesetze zum Beispiel machen, gute Ideen haben, aber dann hakt sozusagen auf dem Weg zur Umsetzung. Genau. Mhm, okay. Genau und Hebel heißt aber ja auch, wir sprechen jetzt nicht hier über Abriss und Neubau, sondern über Justierungen eher, ne? Genau. Ja. Genau. Wir wollen dieses funktionierende Verwaltungsgebilde überhaupt gar nicht abreißen. Da sind auch international sehr viele neidisch drauf. Ja. Und das wollen wir gerne erhalten. Okay. Maik, hast Du da 'n Beispiel für einen Hebel, also wo man sagt, okay, da hapert's relativ oft in der Umsetzung, sag ich jetzt mal. Oh, soweit würd ich schon gar nicht mehr gehen, ne. Ja. Aber ein Hebel ist zum Beispiel das Haushaltsrecht, wo es ja auch wunderbare Ansätze gibt, das ein bisschen weiterzuentwickeln und zu reformieren auf Wirkung. Im Moment haben wir halt immer noch diese Denke Haushaltsrecht, ich mache 'n Titel auf und wenn ich den Titel dann entsprechend bestücke, also Geld hinterlege, dann habe ich das Problem gelöst, so ungefähr. Und dieser Schritt ist halt einfach viel zu kurz. Da sind wir ja nur bei den Inputfaktoren, also nur das, was ich reingebe. Genau, also ich will was erreichen, ich berechne, wie viel Geld könnte das kosten, schieb's rein sozusagen und denkst, kommt's auf der anderen Seite gelöst wieder raus. Dann macht die Maschine und dann ist alles gut. Und da haben wir halt etliche Bereiche, zum Beispiel auch eine Zersplitterung von Zuständigkeiten, die dann dazu führt, dass dann vielleicht diese Haushaltsmittel, sagen wir, sehr spezifisch umgesetzt verausgabt werden und nicht unbedingt dann mit Blick auf die Wirkung. Und genau, also ihr habt jetzt zum Beispiel Wohnungsbau, glaube ich, wird genannt, das da sind ja 4 Ressorts, die zusammen planen müssen. Also manchmal ist es ja aber auch wirklich komplex, ne. Also Ja, und unter der vergangenen Regierung war das so. Da ist es bemerkenswert, also da sind ganz viele Aspekte, die da noch reinkommen. Der der eine Aspekt, über den wir noch gar nicht geredet haben, ist, dass wir ja das Grundproblem bei 1 Außenwahrnehmung gesehen. Mhm. Also das bedeutet auch, die Ansprüche der Bürgerinnen und Bürger wandeln sich. Sie wollen natürlich eine rechtsförmig funktionierende Verwaltung, sie wollen aber eben auch eine Verwaltung, die ihre ganz konkreten Probleme löst. Das wird immer, Du bist ja auch berechtigt, ich will das gar nicht kritisieren. Ich nehme das nur wahr, dass sie das Anspruchsniveau da durchaus eher steigt. Mhm. Ja, auch interessante Beobachtungen. Das stimmt, es geht eben auch diese Außenperspektive und die wahrgenommene Wirkung. Ist ist auch 'n wichtiger Ansatz, ne? Genau. Und die Überlegung ist halt diese Außenperspektive jetzt ein bisschen in die Verwaltung mit reinzubringen. Ja, okay. Mhm. Euer Lösungsvorschlag oder wie man da drauf gucken könnte, das ist das I00I Modell, das hat 4 Stufen Input, Output, Outcome und Impact. Kann man das mal kurz an 'nem Beispiel durchgehen? Also was wäre die Stufe 1, 2, 3, 4, weil es klingt son bisschen ähnlich, ne, irgendwie Output Outcome. Genau, also wir schlagen vor, dass man sich vor allem dem Outcome zuwendet. Die Voraussetzung dafür ist, dass auch wir uns, wie viele andere sich mit dem Thema Wirkungsorientierung befassen. Also das ist ja das, worum's eigentlich geht. Wie können Probleme besser gelöst werden? Wie können wir wirkungsorientiertes Verwaltungshandeln schaffen? Und darüber reden ganz viele dauernd, ne. Das ist jetzt gar nichts Neues. Und wir wollen dabei auf Outcome fokussieren und dafür kann ich vielleicht kurz einmal aufschlüsseln, was meint Input, Output, Outcome Genau, gerne und 'n Beispiel. Also ich glaube, ihr habt das Deutschlandticket Beispiel oder Genau. Oder vielleicht mach ich's mit Deutschlandticket. Ich guck mal. Also Input meint erst mal innerhalb der Verwaltung, also es geht immer den Verwaltungsvollzug sozusagen, welche Ressourcen stehen für die Umsetzung 1 Maßnahme zur Verfügung? Also wie viel Ressourcen habe ich, all das abzuwickeln, was dann später zu einem Deutschlandticket führt, zum Beispiel, ne. Output meint, führt zum Beispiel, ne. Output meint das, was ganz konkret als Leistung herauskommt, aus dem, was da erarbeitet wurde. Das kann dann zum Beispiel das konkrete Verwaltungsangebot sein, also das Deutschlandticket. Damit kann aber auch so was, wenn man jetzt stärker in Verwaltungslogiken oder in der Verwaltungsdigitalisierung denkt, dann kann das auch die Anzahl von Bescheiden sein, die ausgestellt werden kann oder 'n spezifisches Onlineangebot, all diese Dinge, ne. Und outcome geht dann schon Richtung Wirkung. Outcome meint, ob diese spezifische, ich sag jetzt mal Maßnahme, das könnte man auch anders nennen, eine Verhaltensänderung bei der Zielgruppe bewirkt. Also in dem Fall, die fahren mehr mit öffentlichen Verkehrsmitteln zum Beispiel. Zum Beispiel, genau, da spielen dann verschiedene Faktoren mit rein und auch das ist schon gar nicht so leicht zu messen, weil was meint eigentlich Verhaltensänderung? Welche Verhaltensänderung war eigentlich gewollt? Also schon das ist relativ komplex, aber wir sagen eben bedingt noch messbar oder zumindest operationalisierbar und verstehbar. Also ich kann vielleicht noch das Erreichen meiner Ziele anhand von Verhaltensänderungen messen. Was es dann noch gibt als vierten Aspekt, auch das ist Teil der Wirkung, ist Impact. Das wird ganz häufig und ganz viel besprochen. Das hört man eigentlich dauernd. Und das meint gesamtgesellschaftliche Veränderungen. Also da kann man dann jetzt in Deutschland beim Deutschlandticket könnte man jetzt Thema Nachhaltigkeit ganz groß machen, ne. Das sind dann die ganz großen gesamtgesellschaftlichen Veränderungen. Die sind unglaublich wichtig und ganz häufig ist ja genau das das, was gewollt wird, wenn bestimmte Gesetze oder so weiter erlassen werden, aber das ist auch ganz schwer messbar. Das hat damit zu tun, dass Zusammenhänge einfach ganz schwer messbar sind, die sind hochkomplex. Da Kausalitäten nachzuvollziehen, ist anspruchsvoll. Ja. Das kann man machen und das kann auch. Es ist zum Beispiel eine Aufgabe der Wissenschaft, aber wir suchen ja nach Steuerungsinstrumenten und dafür muss etwas messbar gemacht werden und da halten wir Outcome für zugänglicher und vor allem für leichter umzuwandeln in ein Steuerungsinstrument. Genau, nee, weil man könnte sich ja vorstellen, man will CO2 Ausstoß reduzieren, aber kann ja sein, man fördert gleichzeitig E-Autos oder irgendwas noch und dann kann man irgendwie schlechter sagen, okay, das hat jetzt zu dem geführt. Genau, das ist das Problem. Ja. Also es kann ja auch ganz andere steigende Benzinpreise Genau. Aktuelles Beispiel zu nehmen, kann auch dazu führen oder eine Wirtschaftskrise kann dazu führen, dass der CO2 Ausstoß auch im Verkehrssektor sinkt. Und genau das ist das Problem. Also die zumindest die global galaktischen Indikatoren lassen sich ja sogar noch ganz gut erfassen. Aber die Kausalität dahinter ist ja auch enorm schwierig. Nee, ja, ja. Und dazu braucht man halt die Verhaltensänderungen. Also kaufen wir jetzt das Deutschlandticket, zusätzlich zu fahren oder substituieren Sie nur Ihr altes Ticket, das einfach teurer war oder fahren andere jetzt mehr? Das ist ja auch noch zumindest 'n denkbares Szenario, fahren andere jetzt mehr, weil die Straßen frei sind. Genau, ja. Ist schon komplex, die Wirkungsebene Ja. Zu untersuchen. Ja. Aber welchen Impact es dann tatsächlich hatte, das ist ohne wissenschaftliche Großuntersuchung kaum zu erfassen. Mhm. Okay und das ist eben, warum wir Outcome dem Impact vorziehen würden und aber Output sozusagen die Stufe davor, also wo man sagen könnte, ich weiß ich nicht, ich hab 100000 Abos verkauft oder so was. Das wär dann wieder zu wenig? Genau, da da wissen wir dann halt wieder nicht so ganz genau, hat das jetzt wirklich eine Veränderung bewirkt. Also wir haben schon gesagt, fahren Sie einfach nur mehr. Die Leute, die sich dieses Ticket gekauft haben, dann hätte man aus 'ner Klimaschutzperspektive sogar tendenziell eher 'n negativen Effekt, wenn ich mehr ÖPNV fahren lasse. Und was wär so euer Eindruck, also wenn man jetzt diese 4 Stufen im Blick hat, ist es so, dass wenn eine Maßnahme, also 'n Gesetz oder irgendwas erarbeitet wird, dass man dann mehr Anfang und Ende denkt, aber nicht so diese Zwischenschritte oder also wird dieses Outcome wirklich mitgedacht? Im Moment lässt sich eher eine Input und Output fokussierte Steuerung konstatieren. Das machen natürlich nicht nur wir, sondern auch ganz viele andere. Also Verwaltungsvollzug, Handeln in der Verwaltung selbst wird stärker über den Input gesteuert. Also die Frage auch vor dem Hintergrund des Prinzips der Sparsamkeit, das ja auch sehr, sehr wichtig ist. Also wie können wir möglichst sparsam eine spezifische Maßnahme vollziehen? Was zusätzlich häufig auch in den Blick kommt, auch zunehmend in den Blick kommt, ist Output. Mhm. Ne, also man versucht schon zu messen, okay, was haben wir damit jetzt konkret erreicht? Was ist der Output? Und Steuerung über Wirkung über, jetzt in unserem Fall sprechen wir von Outcome ist seltener anzutreffen. Auch da gibt's mittlerweile viele Beispiele und die werden auch in der Studie ausgeführt, aber es ist eben noch nicht so in der Breite und vor allem nicht strukturell verankert. Was noch wichtig ist, damit das nicht untergeht, die Steuerung über Input ist 'n ganz wichtiges demokratisches Element. Mhm. Also das ist wirklich sehr, sehr wichtig, weil das ist das Parlament, das den Haushalt kontrolliert und wir brauchen diese Exekutivkontrolle. Also es geht uns nicht darum zu sagen, wir können nicht mehr auf den Input gucken, sondern wir sagen, kann man Strukturen, Regeln so anpassen, dass auch eine stärker wirkungsorientierte Steuerung möglich wird. Wenn ich noch ergänzen darf, also es gibt ja gute Gründe, hast Du ja eben wunderbar beschrieben. Also auf 'ner politischen Ebene heißt es dann ja, wir machen die und die konkrete Maßnahme und damit erreichen wir den und den Impact. Das Problem ist, dass diese wunderbare IOOI Linie dann nicht durchdekliniert wird, Genau. Auch aus guten Gründen teilweise. Und 1 der Voraussetzungen wäre, das auch noch stärker im Gesetzgebungsprozess oder in jeder Form von Regelsetzung zu verankern, sich selbst dieser Kausalitäten bewusster zu werden, das selbst noch mal aus 'ner anderen Perspektive zu durchdenken. Und dann natürlich, und da kommen wir dann in schwierige Bereiche rein, besser messbar zu sein, besser kontrollierbar zu sein und es ist natürlich auch mit einem gewissen Aufwand verbunden, der natürlich auch wieder gerechtfertigt sein muss. Ja, klar. Genau, also die guten Gründe wären der Aufwand. Also wenn ich Wirkung messen will, produzier ich 'n Zusatzaufwand, der die überlasteten Verwaltungen möglicherweise noch mehr überlastet. Das ist 1 der Gründe, warum man sich das sparen wollen könnte sozusagen. Absolut. Ja. Ja, ja. Mhm, okay. Doch. Also es ist ja dann auch, ich hab 'n zusätzlichen Aufwand und mach mich dadurch dann auch noch kontrollierbarer. Genau, das ist ja auch 'n Risiko zu sagen, okay, ich wollte wirklich, weiß ich nicht, 20 Prozent weniger Autos auf den Straßen, das kann ich ja dann nachmessen, ne. Hab ich's entweder geschafft oder hab ich's nicht geschafft. Also das ist auch son Risiko. Genau, das ist aus Verwaltungsperspektive problematisch. Okay. Ja und ja, leuchtet mir alles total ein. Und was gibt's dann da für pragmatische Lösungen? Also wie komme ich dann daran und motiviere die Leute, das zu machen? Also die Idee ist ja, dass wir versuchen, diese Wirkungsorientierung in die Verwaltung zu bringen, in der Hoffnung, dass sie dann auch wirklich mehr Wirkungen entfaltet. Das ist ja auch immer eine starke Hypothese, die hinter dem ganzen Papier steht. Muss ja gar nicht so sein, aber davon gehen wir mal aus. Wenn man davon ausgeht, dann ist, glaube ich, unter den gegebenen Rahmenbedingungen, die wir eben schon andiskutiert haben, gibt es gar keine Alternative dazu, anstatt die Wirkung des Verwaltungshandeln und staatlichen Handlungs zu erhöhen. Das ist, glaube ich, ganz essenziell, nicht nur für die Wahrnehmung, sondern auch halt für die realen Krisen, die wir halt haben. Mhm. Und dann geht es eigentlich die Frage, nicht mehr das Ob, sondern nur noch das Wie. Und da ist natürlich immer der Traum, dass man möglichst versucht, vorhandene Daten zu nutzen, zum Beispiel, das es diesen Aufwand toll. Bisschen zu reduzieren, ne? Genau. Mhm. Und möglichst automatisiert einlesbare Daten. Also man kann sicherlich nicht für jedes kleine Projektchen da 'n Riesenevaluation und und Wirkungsmessung dran Nur wenn man sich vorher, das ist wieder mal 'n Punkt von eben, wenn man sich vorher schon darüber Gedanken macht, na, wo will ich denn hin und wie könnte ich das eventuell messen und vielleicht sogar schon, was hab ich da für Daten und welche könnte ich dafür ranziehen, dann wird hinterher der Aufwand auch deutlich geringer. Ja, okay. Alina, Du hast vorhin schon dieses Prinzip der Sparsamkeit, ne, was ja wichtig ist auch angesprochen, also dieses Minimalprinzip, was ja im Haushaltsrecht gibt. Also ich will mit wenigen Ressourcen möglichst viel erreichen und da gibt's ja auch eine Stelle in der Veröffentlichung, wo ihr sagt, das ist eine gute Idee, aber die kann zum Problem werden. Kannst Du das noch mal erklären? Genau, also grundsätzlich ist es natürlich wichtig, Ressourcen zu monitoren und dafür braucht man Vorgaben und Zuständigkeiten und all das hängt auch eng mit demokratischer Kontrolle zusammen. Es kann aber eben auch zu Fehlanreizen führen oder hemmend wirken, ne. Zum Beispiel werden über Haushaltstitel bestimmte Gelder für bestimmte sehr spezifische Aufgaben zugewiesen, die dann in 1 Verwaltungsentität bearbeitet werden für einen Zeitraum x, zum Beispiel für ein Jahr. Ja, also sagen wir mal jetzt sehr konkret irgendwie, Du musst Führerscheine ausgeben. Normalerweise sind das 10000 pro Jahr, da berechnen wir so und so viel Geld dafür. Sowas, wäre das 'n Beispiel oder? Ja, genau so kann man das schon darstellen. Ja. Und es ist nicht immer so, dass das System belohnt, wenn eine solche Aufgabe besonders gut ausgeführt wurde. Es kann zum Beispiel sein, dass eine, ich sag jetzt mal immer, Entität, das ist son bisschen abstrakter Begriff, aber eine Verwaltungseinheit im Rahmen ihrer Ressourcen, die zumeist eher knapp sind, diese Aufgabe sehr gut erfüllt und sogar weniger Ressourcen braucht als angenommen. Das kann zum Beispiel zu 1 Budgetkürzung führen. Genau, weil dann das wird dann fortgeschrieben und dann wird gesagt, ach Mensch, jetzt habt ihr ja die 10000 Führerscheine mit 8 Leuten geschafft. Genau. Mit 10. Genau. Streichen wir die Stellen. Genau. So und das ist natürlich problematisch schon mit Blick auf die Aufgabenerfüllung, aber auch auf die Verwaltungseinheit selbst. Keiner will solche Kürzungen und das ist ein Beispiel für eine Fehlintzündivierung, da gibt's aber mehrere, da kann Maik sicher auch gleich noch was dazu sagen. Wir drücken das jetzt natürlich sehr, sehr zugespitzt aus, aber wir versuchen ja deutlich zu machen, wo Fehlanreize liegen können, ne. Okay. Das ich hab Du ergänzen Ja, willst Du was sagen dazu, Maik? Ja, gerne. Das klassische Dezemberfieber. Genau, exakt. Immer noch mal Wenn man mal ganz viele Projekte sich ausdenken, wenn's Eher, vor allem ganz viel Geld ausgeben, damit das Budget ausgeschöpft wird, dann zu zeigen, ja, wir brauchen das Geld wirklich. Also das ist ja schon im im Volksmund angekommen, dieser Mechanismus. Es gibt noch son paar, wenn man 'n bisschen in diese Logik reinguckt, die ja mit völlig d'accord eigentlich ja super klingt, ne. Also wir wollen, wir haben festgelegt eine Maßnahme und die wollen wir möglichst minimalen Mitteleinsatz erreichen. Das klingt ja erst mal super. Dann in der konkreten Umsetzung gibt's dann aber so paar Kleinigkeiten. Also wenn ich jetzt als Ministerium mir eine neue Maßnahme vornehme, bis die dann erst mal durch den politischen Prozess durch ist und so was, das dauert dann natürlich auch noch 'n bisschen, wenn sie denn gewollt wird, wenn sie politisch gewollt wird. Aber dann geht's ja los. Dann hab ich diese neue Aufgabe, dann kriege ich eventuell Stellen. Stellen bedeuten aber nicht notwendigerweise Personen und dann dauert das, bis ich mein Personal entsprechend akquiriert habe und dafür auf diese Aufgaben wirklich loslassen kann. Möglicherweise kann ich diese Stellen auch gar nicht komplett besetzen. Weil Fachkräftemangel zum Beispiel, ja. Fachkräftemangel oder weil die Prozesse so zu lange dauern oder weil einfach keiner will, ja, genau. Also ich hab dann schon Schwierigkeiten, überhaupt halbwegs zeitnah diesen minimalen Mitteleinsatz zu gewährleisten. Und ich dachte, das Beste habe, dass man 1 krank wird, dann wird's noch schlimmer. Also schon in der Umsetzung hapert's da ein bisschen und dann wird es natürlich auch wahrscheinlicher, dass dann diese Maßnahme doch nicht so umgesetzt wird, wie ja ursprünglich geplant. Und ihr schlagt eine bessere Lösung vor, das outcome orientierte Maximalprinzip, also Maxi statt mini, was was ist dank die Idee dahinter? Klingt so nach maßlosem Geldversprechen. Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht. Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen. Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht. Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen und zu sagen, wir haben durch den Haushalt, demokratisch legitimiert, ein Input von x Euro und damit wollen wir jetzt den das maximale, die maximale Wirkung entfalten. Mhm. Also unterstellt natürlich auch, dass ich dann das Mittel entsprechend auch einsetzen kann. Das Problem bleibt natürlich erhalten. Da gibt's dann wieder andere Stellschrauben, an denen ich drehen muss. Das hat unter anderem den Effekt, dass das Rösser Link eben beschrieben hat, dass ich möglicherweise bestraft werde, wenn ich zu effizient arbeite, dass genau dieser Mechanismus nicht eintreten kann, sondern dann zeige ich hier, guck mal, ich hab, beim Führerschein ist jetzt 'n bisschen schwierig das Beispiel. Ja, ja, aber Ich hab mit meinen 8 Leuten 12000 Führerscheine ausgestellt, die keiner haben will. Ist 'n schwieriges Beispiel bei bei allen Dingen. Oder genau. Ich hab einfach mehr Spielplätze gebaut, als eigentlich vorgesehen waren oder? Genau. Genau. Mhm. Okay. Und man kann ja auch son bisschen umschichten. Also ich fand ganz interessant dieses Praxisbeispiel Perspektive 50 plus von den Jobcentern, was son bisschen zeigt auch, wie man also kreativ im positiven Sinne mit Mitteln auch umgehen kann. Ja, 'n ganz spannendes Beispiel, dass ja auch schon uralt ist. Das ist ja schon, man will rechnen, 20 Jahre alt, wo man versucht hat, aus dieser Haushaltslogik auszubrechen. Teilweise sind das ja ganz kleine Dinge, die man nur verändern muss. Also zum Beispiel die Übertragbarkeit von Haushaltsmitteln ins nächste Jahr. Mhm. Ist ja ein gigantisches Thema. Ne, deswegen gibt's ja das Dezemberfieber, weil die Mittel werden Ja. Übertragen und deswegen muss ich's ausgeben und damit signalisieren, dass ich das die Mittel auch wirklich gebraucht habe, also 'n doppelter Effekt. Wie jetzt auch noch mal ganz wichtig ist, es geht uns da den Mechanismus, der dahintersteht, diesen Hebel. Es geht uns gar nicht darum, dass dann da eine Person sitzt, die das Geld verausgabt, sondern es geht darum, dass es dahinter eine Logik gibt, die das befördert, dass es solche Mechanismen gibt. Ja. Das ist noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, den ich da machen möchte. Ja, und bei diesem bei dieser Maßnahme damals gab's gleich ganz viele Aspekte. Zum einen war die Mittelübertragung auch über mehrere Jahre überhaupt gar kein Problem. Dann hatten die Jobcenter, die es da ging, die ja ältere Beschäftigte in Arbeit bringen sollten, freie Auswahl der Mittel. Mhm. Also konnten ihre das Geld so einsetzen, wie sie wollten in Fortbildung, in Subventionierung von Stellen, was auch immer. Ja. Das ganze Instrumentarium. Konnten das dementsprechend auf ihre Leute, die sie betreuen und auf ihren jeweiligen Arbeitsmarkt, den man dann da dabei auch im Blick haben muss, konnten das entsprechend anpassen und sind dann so eher in eine Belohnungslogik reingekommen. Also wenn sie 'n guten Job gemacht haben, dann ist das Geld zumindest weiter geflossen. Ja. Dann erst mal so. Okay. Also klingt ja super und offensichtlich ja auch nicht neu, bis zur Nachahmung empfohlen wurde, aber dann nicht so viel nachgehahmung. Ja. Also so viel nachgeahmt offensichtlich, oder? Wenn Du's vor 20 Jahren schon In 'nem Kenntnisstand ist das in der Form immer noch selten. Mhm. Aber es gibt natürlich schon in der Verwaltung, also in den Kommunalverwaltungen und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele, und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele für genau solches Handeln. Also wir sind nicht die Ersten, die darüber sprechen und im Papier finden sich auch einige Beispiele dafür, wie genau in die Richtung gearbeitet wird. Wir weisen eher darauf, dass es strukturell in die Breite getragen werden sollte und das eben anhand einiger Vorschläge. Ja, okay. Genau, aber Du hast ja auch gerade gesagt, Allinke, also was man ja nicht vergessen darf, ist, dass diese Inputorientierung ist wichtig. Wir sind in 'nem demokratischen System. Wir wollen, dass wir wollen Rechtsstaatlichkeit und Rechtssicherheit natürlich weiterhin gewährleisten, ne. Also es gibt dann in diesem Freiwerden sozusagen gibt's ja auch Säulen, die man nicht einreisen möchte dann, ne. Genau das ist unbedingt so. Das muss uns nur nicht per se davon abbringen, trotzdem mal an paar Hebeln zu drehen und zum Beispiel Steuerung und das böse Wort ist immer Kontrolle, vielleicht bleibe ich bei Steuerung, ist ja schon auch möglich, indem ich andere Indikatoren für Erfolg entwickle. Und das tue ich ja zum Beispiel in dem Moment, indem ich mir genau angucke, was soll der Outcome 1 spezifischen Maßnahme sein, das wirklich in Indikatoren runterbreche und damit auch messbar mache. Das geht im Kleinen, also mit Blick auf ganz spezifische kleinteilige Aufgaben, aber wünschenswert wär so was natürlich auch im Großen dann zum Beispiel eine ganze Verwaltungseinheit, eine ganze Behörde umfassend. Auch da kann man strategische Ziele outcomeorientiert für bestimmte Zeiträume festlegen und das dann runterbrechen und vorsichtig formuliert messbar machen, dann in die verschiedenen untergeordneten Einheiten. Und auch hier ist Steuerung und vor allem auch nachvollziehbare Steuerung möglich. Was wir nicht wollen, ist plötzlich kein gar keine Inputsteuerung mehr. Da geht's schon darum, Dinge, die schwer zu vereinen sind, zusammenzubringen. Ja. Also neben dieser Schwierigkeit, dass man sich damit beobachtbar macht und dass man ihn auf und dafür möglichst gering halten soll, gibt es natürlich auch noch 'n anderen ganz wichtigen Punkt, die Verwaltung son bisschen in Richtung Wirkungsorientierung zu locken. Und das ist, man muss Fehler machen dürfen. Mhm. Und das ist ja etwas, was in der Verwaltung höchstgrad verpönt ist. Erfolg wird gemessen, ne Vermeidung von Fehlern ist auch 1 meiner Lieblingssprüche zu dem Thema. Aber das bedeutet dann natürlich, wenn man sich beobachtbar macht, wenn man sich an ganz konkreten Zielen misst, wenn man sich an Wirkungsindikatoren misst, dann gehört es ganz normal dazu, dass man daran auch scheitern kann. Mhm. Und der Punkt ist ja nicht, also wir wollen natürlich nicht scheitern, das ist auch klar, aber das muss vollkommen legitim sein und der Punkt ist dann, daraus wieder zu lernen und daraus die nächste Maßnahme dann vielleicht 'n bisschen anders zu strecken, dann in so einen Mechanismus von Lernen der Verwaltung zu kommen, Mhm. Der dann auch wieder auf ganz vielen Ebenen kleine Hebelchen braucht, so zum Beispiel auch Aufstiegschancen, die damit verbunden sein müssen innerhalb der Verwaltung. Also wenn Aufstiegschancen nach diesem Prinzip Fehlervermeidung vergeben werden, verteilt werden, dann hat das wieder 'n negativen Auswirkungen darauf, sich messbar machen lassen zu wollen und darauf dann möglicherweise Ziele nicht zu erreichen. Aber heißt das, dass man da auch einfach Sachen zurückfahren muss wie so 6 Augen Prinzip, Berichtspflichten und so was? Also muss man da dann auch mit Sachen aufhören oder muss man einfach nur die Sachen, die man misst und kontrolliert, anders bewerten? Ich glaube, es wär 'n Gedanke wert, die Punkte, an denen man dann kontrolliert, etwas anders zu setzen. Also mehr Freiräume in der tatsächlichen Ausführung zu geben, wenn man denn dann im Nachgang umso genauer kontrolliert. Also dazu gibt's ja auch schon Mechanismen. Also so so jetzt ja nicht, ist ja auch nicht neu. Aber da die Verantwortung ein bisschen weiter nach hinten zu verlagern, könnte könnte den Prozess beschleunigen, ja. Mhm, okay. Ja. Jetzt zum Abschluss, also hat ja jetzt grad die Koalition ihr Reformpaket vorgestellt, da ist Bürokratieabbau auch 'n wichtiges Thema, also diese Beweislastumkehr, ne. Beweist uns erst mal, dass ihr diese diese Regel braucht und sonst schafft sie ab. Würdet ihr sagen, da ist jetzt gerade 'n besonders günstiges Zeitfenster für sone Neuausrichtung von Hebeln im Betriebssystem? Das ist 'n hoch spannendes Experiment, das da jetzt gerade passiert, weil meistens ist es, also es hat's ja auch schon häufiger mal gegeben, weil Schrift vorm Erfordern. Das ist ja auch schon gemacht, ne. Ja. Und und auch in anderen Themenfeldern, Schrift vorm Erfordernisse fällt mir ein. Da sollten dann auch alle begründen, warum das wichtig ist und da sind doch sehr vielen Leuten sehr viele Dinge eingefallen, warum das so wichtig ist. Ja. Und das ist, wie tatsächlich auch 'n strukturelles Problem. Diese Berichtsspflichten haben ja alle eine Begründung, ne. Die sollten zumindest mal eine Funktion erfüllen, mal eine Wirkung entfalten. Eigentlich müssen wir jetzt hingehen und gucken, ob sie das tun, ob sie diese Wirkung entfalten und nicht, ob die ursprüngliche Gesetzesbegründung immer noch relevant ist. Aber ja, wenn das funktioniert und wenn jetzt nicht die Begründung, warum das alles so wichtig ist, zu viele Ressourcen bindet innerhalb der Verwaltung, dann müssen ja eigentlich Freiräume entstehen und dann entsteht dadurch auch die Möglichkeit, 'n paar Dinge neu zu denken, neu zu machen. Das ist nebenbei bemerkt ja auch durch die Gründung des BMDS, also Bundesministerium für Digitalisierung und Staatsmodernisierung. Das ist ja auch so ein Experiment, etwas ganz neu zu machen. Mhm. Mit vielen Vaterpängigkeiten, aber auch mit vielen Freiräumen, es einfach mal anders zu machen. Ja. Ja, und es gibt ja auch Instrumente, die jetzt schon im Einsatz sind, die sehr hilfreich sind. Also zum Beispiel die Praxischecks, wo in Ministerien versucht wird, bevor man Verfahren anpasst, zum Beispiel aus Entbürokratisierungsgründen, wo man versucht, im Vorfeld mit Stakeholdern in den Austausch zu treten, genau zu vermeiden, dass das schlussendlich das Problem gar nicht löst oder am Ende die Anpassung 1 Verfahrens keine Wirkung entfaltet. Also es gibt ja gute Ansätze, die auch schon umgesetzt werden. Das muss man immer dazu sagen, ne. Prima wären nur mehr davon. Ja. Ja. Okay. Ja, schönes Schlusswort. Danke euch, beiden. Danke dir. Danke dir. Die vollständige Studie Outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung, die finden Sie zum Nachlesen in den Shownotes. Bei mir im Studio waren Mike Weber und Alinker Roter vom Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut FOCUS. Danke für Ihren Input. Hoffentlich Outcome wünschen wir uns. Mein Name ist Franziska Walser. Danke fürs Zuhören und bis 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0: Entscheidend ist, was hinten rauskommt. Das ist 'n legendäres Zitat von Altkanzler Helmut Kohl aus dem Jahr neunzehnhundertvierundachtzig. Damals wurde in der Verwaltung noch eifrig gestempelt, Karteikarten sortiert und solche Dinge. Aber der Spruch ist zeitlos gültig und passt auch zu unserer heutigen Folge von Restart digital, denn unser Thema ist outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung. Es geht kleine, aber wirkmächtige Stellschrauben im Betriebssystem der Verwaltung.\n\nWas das ist und welche konkreten Beispiele es gibt, darum geht es heute. Wir sind zurück aus 1 kleinen kreativen Podcast Pause mit frischen Themen und dem bewährten Team. Ich bin Franziska Walser und bei mir im Studio sind Alinker Roter, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT, das Fraunhofer Institut FOCUS mit Schwerpunkt Verwaltungstransformation und Digitalpolitik. Hallo, Erlinker. Hallo Franziska.\n\nUnd Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des ÖFÖT. Hallo, Mike.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo, Franziska.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir sprechen heute mal wieder auf der Basis von 'ner aktuellen Veröffentlichung. Da hast Du mitgearbeitet, Maik und der Titel ist Outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung, Hebel im Betriebssystem der Verwaltung. Ich bin da über diese Betriebssystemmetapher gestolpert. Was wär denn Teil des Betriebssystems in dieser Vorstellung?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, mit der Betriebssystem Metapher haben wir sehr gerungen. Mhm. Es gibt ja auch andere Verwendungen dafür, zum Beispiel wird gerne gerade auf lokaler Ebene bei Kommunalverwaltung vom Betriebssystemen und des Gemeinwesens auf lokaler Ebene gesprochen. Das ist genau nicht unser Punkt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und deswegen haben wir son bisschen damit gerungen, ob wir den Begriff wirklich verwenden wollen. Uns geht es darum, wie funktioniert Verwaltung intern? Also welche Regeln gibt es da? Ja. Welche Geschäftsverteilungspläne, welche Geschäftsordnungen und so weiter und so weiter.\n\nNach welchen Prinzipien funktioniert die Verwaltung intern? Und das ist unser großes Thema. Also\n\nSpeaker 0: wie bei 'nem Computerprogramm diese diese Logiken oder Algorithmen, die da so eingeschrieben sind und die man dann aber eben auch verändern kann, so bisschen in die Richtung, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, im Grunde konnte man das so sehen, dass die Verwaltung oder dieses Betriebssystem die einzelnen Elemente deines Rechners orchestriert und genauso versuchen wir auch auf die Verwaltung zu gucken.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das ist wirkmächtig, obwohl da ja Menschen arbeiten sozusagen, aber das funktioniert trotzdem, dass man sich mal auf die Regeln guckt und nicht auf die Teammik oder so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wir haben ja Gott sei Dank eine regelbasierte Verwaltung. Also die Regeln sind ganz zentral für Verwaltungshandeln, natürlich.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. Alinka, kannst Du mal kurz sagen, was passiert denn, wenn's nicht gut läuft, also bei diesen Programmen Regeln?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also grundsätzlich passiert dann ganz viel, daher könnte ich jetzt so viele Beispiele nennen, das ist schwer, das jetzt auszuführen. Vielleicht sollte man auch vorweg sagen, ganz oft funktioniert das auch sehr gut. Also wir wollen jetzt gar nicht mit 'ner Generalkritik starten. In diesem Papier gehen wir grundsätzlich davon aus, dass im Moment die Problemlösungsfähigkeit des Staates und damit eben auch die Problemlösungsfähigkeit der Verwaltung infrage gestellt wird oder angezweifelt wird, vielleicht nicht vollumfänglich, aber zumindest in Teilen. Wir nehmen wahr, dass das eine Wahrnehmung in der Bevölkerung ist und zum Teil aber auch in den Behördenleitungen selbst.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also intern und extern.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also wie gut kann der Staat und damit eben auch die Verwaltung spezifische gesellschaftliche Probleme wirklich lösen? Ich würde sagen, das ist unser ganz grober Ausgangspunkt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Was ja auch daran liegt, dass es einfach diese Multikrisenzeit gibt. Wir haben Fachkräftemangel. Also da gibt's ja auch andere Faktoren, aber wie gesagt, das liegt eben zum Teil auch an diesem Betriebssystem oder zumindest man kann man's lösen, indem man über diese Hebel geht, die ihr da identifiziert habt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, das kann ein Ansatzpunkt sein.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, da geht ja sogar noch 'n kleine Schrittchen weiter. Mhm. Wir sagen, ohne diese Hebel umzulegen Genau. Nützt vieles andere dann auch nicht so, wie man es sich erhoffen würde.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also man kann sehr schöne Gesetze zum Beispiel machen, gute Ideen haben, aber dann hakt sozusagen auf dem Weg zur Umsetzung.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm, okay. Genau und Hebel heißt aber ja auch, wir sprechen jetzt nicht hier über Abriss und Neubau, sondern über Justierungen eher, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Ja. Genau. Wir wollen dieses funktionierende Verwaltungsgebilde überhaupt gar nicht abreißen. Da sind auch international sehr viele neidisch drauf.\n\nJa. Und das wollen wir gerne erhalten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Maik, hast Du da 'n Beispiel für einen Hebel, also wo man sagt, okay, da hapert's relativ oft in der Umsetzung, sag ich jetzt mal.\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, soweit würd ich schon gar nicht mehr gehen, ne. Ja. Aber ein Hebel ist zum Beispiel das Haushaltsrecht, wo es ja auch wunderbare Ansätze gibt, das ein bisschen weiterzuentwickeln und zu reformieren auf Wirkung. Im Moment haben wir halt immer noch diese Denke Haushaltsrecht, ich mache 'n Titel auf und wenn ich den Titel dann entsprechend bestücke, also Geld hinterlege, dann habe ich das Problem gelöst, so ungefähr. Und dieser Schritt ist halt einfach viel zu kurz.\n\nDa sind wir ja nur bei den Inputfaktoren, also nur das, was ich reingebe.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, also ich will was erreichen, ich berechne, wie viel Geld könnte das kosten, schieb's rein sozusagen und denkst, kommt's auf der anderen Seite gelöst wieder raus.\n\nSpeaker 1: Dann macht die Maschine und dann ist alles gut. Und da haben wir halt etliche Bereiche, zum Beispiel auch eine Zersplitterung von Zuständigkeiten, die dann dazu führt, dass dann vielleicht diese Haushaltsmittel, sagen wir, sehr spezifisch umgesetzt verausgabt werden und nicht unbedingt dann mit Blick auf die Wirkung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und genau, also ihr habt jetzt zum Beispiel Wohnungsbau, glaube ich, wird genannt, das da sind ja 4 Ressorts, die zusammen planen müssen. Also manchmal ist es ja aber auch wirklich komplex, ne. Also\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, und unter der vergangenen Regierung war das so. Da ist es bemerkenswert, also da sind ganz viele Aspekte, die da noch reinkommen. Der der eine Aspekt, über den wir noch gar nicht geredet haben, ist, dass wir ja das Grundproblem bei 1 Außenwahrnehmung gesehen. Mhm. Also das bedeutet auch, die Ansprüche der Bürgerinnen und Bürger wandeln sich.\n\nSie wollen natürlich eine rechtsförmig funktionierende Verwaltung, sie wollen aber eben auch eine Verwaltung, die ihre ganz konkreten Probleme löst. Das wird immer, Du bist ja auch berechtigt, ich will das gar nicht kritisieren. Ich nehme das nur wahr, dass sie das Anspruchsniveau da durchaus eher steigt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Ja, auch interessante Beobachtungen. Das stimmt, es geht eben auch diese Außenperspektive und die wahrgenommene Wirkung. Ist ist auch 'n wichtiger Ansatz, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Und die Überlegung ist halt diese Außenperspektive jetzt ein bisschen in die Verwaltung mit reinzubringen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. Mhm. Euer Lösungsvorschlag oder wie man da drauf gucken könnte, das ist das I00I Modell, das hat 4 Stufen Input, Output, Outcome und Impact. Kann man das mal kurz an 'nem Beispiel durchgehen? Also was wäre die Stufe 1, 2, 3, 4, weil es klingt son bisschen ähnlich, ne, irgendwie Output Outcome.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also wir schlagen vor, dass man sich vor allem dem Outcome zuwendet. Die Voraussetzung dafür ist, dass auch wir uns, wie viele andere sich mit dem Thema Wirkungsorientierung befassen. Also das ist ja das, worum's eigentlich geht. Wie können Probleme besser gelöst werden? Wie können wir wirkungsorientiertes Verwaltungshandeln schaffen?\n\nUnd darüber reden ganz viele dauernd, ne. Das ist jetzt gar nichts Neues. Und wir wollen dabei auf Outcome fokussieren und dafür kann ich vielleicht kurz einmal aufschlüsseln, was meint Input, Output, Outcome Genau, gerne und 'n Beispiel.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich glaube, ihr habt das Deutschlandticket Beispiel oder Genau. Oder vielleicht\n\nSpeaker 2: mach ich's mit Deutschlandticket. Ich guck mal. Also Input meint erst mal innerhalb der Verwaltung, also es geht immer den Verwaltungsvollzug sozusagen, welche Ressourcen stehen für die Umsetzung 1 Maßnahme zur Verfügung? Also wie viel Ressourcen habe ich, all das abzuwickeln, was dann später zu einem Deutschlandticket führt, zum Beispiel, ne. Output meint, führt zum Beispiel, ne.\n\nOutput meint das, was ganz konkret als Leistung herauskommt, aus dem, was da erarbeitet wurde. Das kann dann zum Beispiel das konkrete Verwaltungsangebot sein, also das Deutschlandticket. Damit kann aber auch so was, wenn man jetzt stärker in Verwaltungslogiken oder in der Verwaltungsdigitalisierung denkt, dann kann das auch die Anzahl von Bescheiden sein, die ausgestellt werden kann oder 'n spezifisches Onlineangebot, all diese Dinge, ne. Und outcome geht dann schon Richtung Wirkung. Outcome meint, ob diese spezifische, ich sag jetzt mal Maßnahme, das könnte man auch anders nennen, eine Verhaltensänderung bei der Zielgruppe bewirkt.\n\nAlso in\n\nSpeaker 0: dem Fall, die fahren mehr mit öffentlichen Verkehrsmitteln zum Beispiel.\n\nSpeaker 2: Zum Beispiel, genau, da spielen dann verschiedene Faktoren mit rein und auch das ist schon gar nicht so leicht zu messen, weil was meint eigentlich Verhaltensänderung? Welche Verhaltensänderung war eigentlich gewollt? Also schon das ist relativ komplex, aber wir sagen eben bedingt noch messbar oder zumindest operationalisierbar und verstehbar. Also ich kann vielleicht noch das Erreichen meiner Ziele anhand von Verhaltensänderungen messen. Was es dann noch gibt als vierten Aspekt, auch das ist Teil der Wirkung, ist Impact.\n\nDas wird ganz häufig und ganz viel besprochen. Das hört man eigentlich dauernd. Und das meint gesamtgesellschaftliche Veränderungen. Also da kann man dann jetzt in Deutschland beim Deutschlandticket könnte man jetzt Thema Nachhaltigkeit ganz groß machen, ne. Das sind dann die ganz großen gesamtgesellschaftlichen Veränderungen.\n\nDie sind unglaublich wichtig und ganz häufig ist ja genau das das, was gewollt wird, wenn bestimmte Gesetze oder so weiter erlassen werden, aber das ist auch ganz schwer messbar. Das hat damit zu tun, dass Zusammenhänge einfach ganz schwer messbar sind, die sind hochkomplex. Da Kausalitäten nachzuvollziehen, ist anspruchsvoll. Ja. Das kann man machen und das kann auch.\n\nEs ist zum Beispiel eine Aufgabe der Wissenschaft, aber wir suchen ja nach Steuerungsinstrumenten und dafür muss etwas messbar gemacht werden und da halten wir Outcome für zugänglicher und vor allem für leichter umzuwandeln in ein Steuerungsinstrument.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, nee, weil man könnte sich ja vorstellen, man will CO2 Ausstoß reduzieren, aber kann ja sein, man fördert gleichzeitig E-Autos oder irgendwas noch und dann kann man irgendwie schlechter sagen, okay, das hat jetzt zu dem geführt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das ist das Problem. Ja. Also es kann ja auch ganz andere steigende Benzinpreise\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aktuelles Beispiel zu nehmen, kann auch dazu führen oder eine Wirtschaftskrise kann dazu führen, dass der CO2 Ausstoß auch im Verkehrssektor sinkt. Und genau das ist das Problem. Also die zumindest die global galaktischen Indikatoren lassen sich ja sogar noch ganz gut erfassen. Aber die Kausalität dahinter ist ja auch enorm schwierig.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nee, ja, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und dazu braucht man halt die Verhaltensänderungen. Also kaufen wir jetzt das Deutschlandticket, zusätzlich zu fahren oder substituieren Sie nur Ihr altes Ticket, das einfach teurer war oder fahren andere jetzt mehr? Das ist ja auch noch zumindest 'n denkbares Szenario, fahren andere jetzt mehr, weil die Straßen frei sind.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ist schon komplex, die Wirkungsebene Ja. Zu untersuchen. Ja. Aber welchen Impact es dann tatsächlich hatte, das ist ohne wissenschaftliche Großuntersuchung kaum zu erfassen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Okay und das ist eben, warum wir Outcome dem Impact vorziehen würden und aber Output sozusagen die Stufe davor, also wo man sagen könnte, ich weiß ich nicht, ich hab 100000 Abos verkauft oder so was. Das wär dann wieder zu wenig?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, da da wissen wir dann halt wieder nicht so ganz genau, hat das jetzt wirklich eine Veränderung bewirkt. Also wir haben schon gesagt, fahren Sie einfach nur mehr. Die Leute, die sich dieses Ticket gekauft haben, dann hätte man aus 'ner Klimaschutzperspektive sogar tendenziell eher 'n negativen Effekt, wenn ich mehr ÖPNV fahren lasse.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und was wär so euer Eindruck, also wenn man jetzt diese 4 Stufen im Blick hat, ist es so, dass wenn eine Maßnahme, also 'n Gesetz oder irgendwas erarbeitet wird, dass man dann mehr Anfang und Ende denkt, aber nicht so diese Zwischenschritte oder also wird dieses Outcome wirklich mitgedacht?\n\nSpeaker 2: Im Moment lässt sich eher eine Input und Output fokussierte Steuerung konstatieren. Das machen natürlich nicht nur wir, sondern auch ganz viele andere. Also Verwaltungsvollzug, Handeln in der Verwaltung selbst wird stärker über den Input gesteuert. Also die Frage auch vor dem Hintergrund des Prinzips der Sparsamkeit, das ja auch sehr, sehr wichtig ist. Also wie können wir möglichst sparsam eine spezifische Maßnahme vollziehen?\n\nWas zusätzlich häufig auch in den Blick kommt, auch zunehmend in den Blick kommt, ist Output. Mhm. Ne, also man versucht schon zu messen, okay, was haben wir damit jetzt konkret erreicht? Was ist der Output? Und Steuerung über Wirkung über, jetzt in unserem Fall sprechen wir von Outcome ist seltener anzutreffen.\n\nAuch da gibt's mittlerweile viele Beispiele und die werden auch in der Studie ausgeführt, aber es ist eben noch nicht so in der Breite und vor allem nicht strukturell verankert. Was noch wichtig ist, damit das nicht untergeht, die Steuerung über Input ist 'n ganz wichtiges demokratisches Element. Mhm. Also das ist wirklich sehr, sehr wichtig, weil das ist das Parlament, das den Haushalt kontrolliert und wir brauchen diese Exekutivkontrolle. Also es geht uns nicht darum zu sagen, wir können nicht mehr auf den Input gucken, sondern wir sagen, kann man Strukturen, Regeln so anpassen, dass auch eine stärker wirkungsorientierte Steuerung möglich wird.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wenn ich noch ergänzen darf, also es gibt ja gute Gründe, hast Du ja eben wunderbar beschrieben. Also auf 'ner politischen Ebene heißt es dann ja, wir machen die und die konkrete Maßnahme und damit erreichen wir den und den Impact. Das Problem ist, dass diese wunderbare IOOI Linie dann nicht durchdekliniert wird,\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Auch aus guten Gründen teilweise. Und 1 der Voraussetzungen wäre, das auch noch stärker im Gesetzgebungsprozess oder in jeder Form von Regelsetzung zu verankern, sich selbst dieser Kausalitäten bewusster zu werden, das selbst noch mal aus 'ner anderen Perspektive zu durchdenken. Und dann natürlich, und da kommen wir dann in schwierige Bereiche rein, besser messbar zu sein, besser kontrollierbar zu sein und es ist natürlich auch mit einem gewissen Aufwand verbunden, der natürlich auch wieder gerechtfertigt sein muss.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, klar. Genau, also die guten Gründe wären der Aufwand. Also wenn ich Wirkung messen will, produzier ich 'n Zusatzaufwand, der die überlasteten Verwaltungen möglicherweise noch mehr überlastet. Das ist 1 der Gründe, warum man sich das sparen wollen könnte sozusagen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolut. Ja. Ja, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm, okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Doch. Also es ist ja dann auch, ich hab 'n zusätzlichen Aufwand und mach mich dadurch dann auch noch kontrollierbarer.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, das ist ja auch 'n Risiko zu sagen, okay, ich wollte wirklich, weiß ich nicht, 20 Prozent weniger Autos auf den Straßen, das kann ich ja dann nachmessen, ne. Hab ich's entweder geschafft oder hab ich's nicht geschafft. Also das ist auch son Risiko.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das ist aus Verwaltungsperspektive problematisch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Ja und ja, leuchtet mir alles total ein. Und was gibt's dann da für pragmatische Lösungen? Also wie komme ich dann daran und motiviere die Leute, das zu machen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also die Idee ist ja, dass wir versuchen, diese Wirkungsorientierung in die Verwaltung zu bringen, in der Hoffnung, dass sie dann auch wirklich mehr Wirkungen entfaltet. Das ist ja auch immer eine starke Hypothese, die hinter dem ganzen Papier steht. Muss ja gar nicht so sein, aber davon gehen wir mal aus. Wenn man davon ausgeht, dann ist, glaube ich, unter den gegebenen Rahmenbedingungen, die wir eben schon andiskutiert haben, gibt es gar keine Alternative dazu, anstatt die Wirkung des Verwaltungshandeln und staatlichen Handlungs zu erhöhen. Das ist, glaube ich, ganz essenziell, nicht nur für die Wahrnehmung, sondern auch halt für die realen Krisen, die wir halt haben.\n\nMhm. Und dann geht es eigentlich die Frage, nicht mehr das Ob, sondern nur noch das Wie. Und da ist natürlich immer der Traum, dass man möglichst versucht, vorhandene Daten zu nutzen, zum Beispiel, das es\n\nSpeaker 0: diesen Aufwand toll. Bisschen zu reduzieren, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Mhm. Und möglichst automatisiert einlesbare Daten. Also man kann sicherlich nicht für jedes kleine Projektchen da 'n Riesenevaluation und und Wirkungsmessung dran Nur wenn man sich vorher, das ist wieder mal 'n Punkt von eben, wenn man sich vorher schon darüber Gedanken macht, na, wo will ich denn hin und wie könnte ich das eventuell messen und vielleicht sogar schon, was hab ich da für Daten und welche könnte ich dafür ranziehen, dann wird hinterher der Aufwand auch deutlich geringer.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. Alina, Du hast vorhin schon dieses Prinzip der Sparsamkeit, ne, was ja wichtig ist auch angesprochen, also dieses Minimalprinzip, was ja im Haushaltsrecht gibt. Also ich will mit wenigen Ressourcen möglichst viel erreichen und da gibt's ja auch eine Stelle in der Veröffentlichung, wo ihr sagt, das ist eine gute Idee, aber die kann zum Problem werden. Kannst Du das noch mal erklären?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also grundsätzlich ist es natürlich wichtig, Ressourcen zu monitoren und dafür braucht man Vorgaben und Zuständigkeiten und all das hängt auch eng mit demokratischer Kontrolle zusammen. Es kann aber eben auch zu Fehlanreizen führen oder hemmend wirken, ne. Zum Beispiel werden über Haushaltstitel bestimmte Gelder für bestimmte sehr spezifische Aufgaben zugewiesen, die dann in 1 Verwaltungsentität bearbeitet werden für einen Zeitraum x, zum Beispiel für ein Jahr.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also sagen wir mal jetzt sehr konkret irgendwie, Du musst Führerscheine ausgeben. Normalerweise sind das 10000 pro Jahr, da berechnen wir so und so viel Geld dafür. Sowas, wäre das 'n Beispiel oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau so kann man das schon darstellen. Ja. Und es ist nicht immer so, dass das System belohnt, wenn eine solche Aufgabe besonders gut ausgeführt wurde. Es kann zum Beispiel sein, dass eine, ich sag jetzt mal immer, Entität, das ist son bisschen abstrakter Begriff, aber eine Verwaltungseinheit im Rahmen ihrer Ressourcen, die zumeist eher knapp sind, diese Aufgabe sehr gut erfüllt und sogar weniger Ressourcen braucht als angenommen. Das kann zum Beispiel zu 1 Budgetkürzung führen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, weil dann das wird dann fortgeschrieben und dann wird gesagt, ach Mensch, jetzt habt ihr ja die 10000 Führerscheine mit 8 Leuten geschafft. Genau. Mit 10. Genau. Streichen wir die Stellen.\n\nGenau.\n\nSpeaker 2: So und das ist natürlich problematisch schon mit Blick auf die Aufgabenerfüllung, aber auch auf die Verwaltungseinheit selbst. Keiner will solche Kürzungen und das ist ein Beispiel für eine Fehlintzündivierung, da gibt's aber mehrere, da kann Maik sicher auch gleich noch was dazu sagen. Wir drücken das jetzt natürlich sehr, sehr zugespitzt aus, aber wir versuchen ja deutlich zu machen, wo Fehlanreize liegen können, ne. Okay. Das ich hab Du ergänzen Ja, willst Du was sagen dazu, Maik?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, gerne. Das klassische Dezemberfieber.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, exakt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Immer noch mal\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn man mal ganz viele Projekte sich ausdenken, wenn's\n\nSpeaker 1: Eher, vor allem ganz viel Geld ausgeben, damit das Budget ausgeschöpft wird, dann zu zeigen, ja, wir brauchen das Geld wirklich. Also das ist ja schon im im Volksmund angekommen, dieser Mechanismus. Es gibt noch son paar, wenn man 'n bisschen in diese Logik reinguckt, die ja mit völlig d'accord eigentlich ja super klingt, ne. Also wir wollen, wir haben festgelegt eine Maßnahme und die wollen wir möglichst minimalen Mitteleinsatz erreichen. Das klingt ja erst mal super.\n\nDann in der konkreten Umsetzung gibt's dann aber so paar Kleinigkeiten. Also wenn ich jetzt als Ministerium mir eine neue Maßnahme vornehme, bis die dann erst mal durch den politischen Prozess durch ist und so was, das dauert dann natürlich auch noch 'n bisschen, wenn sie denn gewollt wird, wenn sie politisch gewollt wird. Aber dann geht's ja los. Dann hab ich diese neue Aufgabe, dann kriege ich eventuell Stellen. Stellen bedeuten aber nicht notwendigerweise Personen und dann dauert das, bis ich mein Personal entsprechend akquiriert habe und dafür auf diese Aufgaben wirklich loslassen kann.\n\nMöglicherweise kann ich diese Stellen auch gar nicht komplett besetzen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Weil Fachkräftemangel zum Beispiel, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Fachkräftemangel oder weil die Prozesse so zu lange dauern oder weil einfach keiner will, ja, genau. Also ich hab dann schon Schwierigkeiten, überhaupt halbwegs zeitnah diesen minimalen Mitteleinsatz zu gewährleisten. Und ich dachte, das Beste habe, dass man 1 krank wird, dann wird's noch schlimmer. Also schon in der Umsetzung hapert's da ein bisschen und dann wird es natürlich auch wahrscheinlicher, dass dann diese Maßnahme doch nicht so umgesetzt wird, wie ja ursprünglich geplant.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und ihr schlagt eine bessere Lösung vor, das outcome orientierte Maximalprinzip, also Maxi statt mini, was was ist dank die Idee dahinter?\n\nSpeaker 1: Klingt so nach maßlosem Geldversprechen. Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht. Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen. Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht. Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen und zu sagen, wir haben durch den Haushalt, demokratisch legitimiert, ein Input von x Euro und damit wollen wir jetzt den das maximale, die maximale Wirkung entfalten.\n\nMhm. Also unterstellt natürlich auch, dass ich dann das Mittel entsprechend auch einsetzen kann. Das Problem bleibt natürlich erhalten. Da gibt's dann wieder andere Stellschrauben, an denen ich drehen muss. Das hat unter anderem den Effekt, dass das Rösser Link eben beschrieben hat, dass ich möglicherweise bestraft werde, wenn ich zu effizient arbeite, dass genau dieser Mechanismus nicht eintreten kann, sondern dann zeige ich hier, guck mal, ich hab, beim Führerschein ist jetzt 'n bisschen schwierig das Beispiel.\n\nJa, ja, aber Ich hab mit meinen 8 Leuten 12000 Führerscheine ausgestellt, die keiner haben will. Ist 'n schwieriges Beispiel bei bei allen Dingen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder genau. Ich hab einfach mehr Spielplätze gebaut, als eigentlich vorgesehen waren oder? Genau. Genau. Mhm.\n\nOkay. Und man kann ja auch son bisschen umschichten. Also ich fand ganz interessant dieses Praxisbeispiel Perspektive 50 plus von den Jobcentern, was son bisschen zeigt auch, wie man also kreativ im positiven Sinne mit Mitteln auch umgehen kann.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, 'n ganz spannendes Beispiel, dass ja auch schon uralt ist. Das ist ja schon, man will rechnen, 20 Jahre alt, wo man versucht hat, aus dieser Haushaltslogik auszubrechen. Teilweise sind das ja ganz kleine Dinge, die man nur verändern muss. Also zum Beispiel die Übertragbarkeit von Haushaltsmitteln ins nächste Jahr. Mhm.\n\nIst ja ein gigantisches Thema. Ne, deswegen gibt's ja das Dezemberfieber, weil die Mittel werden Ja. Übertragen und deswegen muss ich's ausgeben und damit signalisieren, dass ich das die Mittel auch wirklich gebraucht habe, also 'n doppelter Effekt. Wie jetzt auch noch mal ganz wichtig ist, es geht uns da den Mechanismus, der dahintersteht, diesen Hebel. Es geht uns gar nicht darum, dass dann da eine Person sitzt, die das Geld verausgabt, sondern es geht darum, dass es dahinter eine Logik gibt, die das befördert, dass es solche Mechanismen gibt.\n\nJa. Das ist noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, den ich da machen möchte. Ja, und bei diesem bei dieser Maßnahme damals gab's gleich ganz viele Aspekte. Zum einen war die Mittelübertragung auch über mehrere Jahre überhaupt gar kein Problem. Dann hatten die Jobcenter, die es da ging, die ja ältere Beschäftigte in Arbeit bringen sollten, freie Auswahl der Mittel.\n\nMhm. Also konnten ihre das Geld so einsetzen, wie sie wollten in Fortbildung, in Subventionierung von Stellen, was auch immer. Ja. Das ganze Instrumentarium. Konnten das dementsprechend auf ihre Leute, die sie betreuen und auf ihren jeweiligen Arbeitsmarkt, den man dann da dabei auch im Blick haben muss, konnten das entsprechend anpassen und sind dann so eher in eine Belohnungslogik reingekommen.\n\nAlso wenn sie 'n guten Job gemacht haben, dann ist das Geld zumindest weiter geflossen. Ja. Dann erst mal so.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Also klingt ja\n\nSpeaker 1: super und offensichtlich ja auch nicht neu, bis zur\n\nSpeaker 0: Nachahmung empfohlen wurde, aber dann nicht so viel nachgehahmung. Ja. Also so viel nachgeahmt offensichtlich, oder? Wenn Du's vor 20 Jahren schon\n\nSpeaker 1: In 'nem Kenntnisstand ist das in der Form immer noch selten. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Aber es gibt natürlich schon in der Verwaltung, also in den Kommunalverwaltungen und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele, und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele für genau solches Handeln. Also wir sind nicht die Ersten, die darüber sprechen und im Papier finden sich auch einige Beispiele dafür, wie genau in die Richtung gearbeitet wird. Wir weisen eher darauf, dass es strukturell in die Breite getragen werden sollte und das eben anhand einiger Vorschläge.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. Genau, aber Du hast ja auch gerade gesagt, Allinke, also was man ja nicht vergessen darf, ist, dass diese Inputorientierung ist wichtig. Wir sind in 'nem demokratischen System. Wir wollen, dass wir wollen Rechtsstaatlichkeit und Rechtssicherheit natürlich weiterhin gewährleisten, ne. Also es gibt dann in diesem Freiwerden sozusagen gibt's ja auch Säulen, die man nicht einreisen möchte dann, ne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau das ist unbedingt so. Das muss uns nur nicht per se davon abbringen, trotzdem mal an paar Hebeln zu drehen und zum Beispiel Steuerung und das böse Wort ist immer Kontrolle, vielleicht bleibe ich bei Steuerung, ist ja schon auch möglich, indem ich andere Indikatoren für Erfolg entwickle. Und das tue ich ja zum Beispiel in dem Moment, indem ich mir genau angucke, was soll der Outcome 1 spezifischen Maßnahme sein, das wirklich in Indikatoren runterbreche und damit auch messbar mache. Das geht im Kleinen, also mit Blick auf ganz spezifische kleinteilige Aufgaben, aber wünschenswert wär so was natürlich auch im Großen dann zum Beispiel eine ganze Verwaltungseinheit, eine ganze Behörde umfassend. Auch da kann man strategische Ziele outcomeorientiert für bestimmte Zeiträume festlegen und das dann runterbrechen und vorsichtig formuliert messbar machen, dann in die verschiedenen untergeordneten Einheiten.\n\nUnd auch hier ist Steuerung und vor allem auch nachvollziehbare Steuerung möglich. Was wir nicht wollen, ist plötzlich kein gar keine Inputsteuerung mehr. Da geht's schon darum, Dinge, die schwer zu vereinen sind, zusammenzubringen. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Also neben dieser Schwierigkeit, dass man sich damit beobachtbar macht und dass man ihn auf und dafür möglichst gering halten soll, gibt es natürlich auch noch 'n anderen ganz wichtigen Punkt, die Verwaltung son bisschen in Richtung Wirkungsorientierung zu locken. Und das ist, man muss Fehler machen dürfen. Mhm. Und das ist ja etwas, was in der Verwaltung höchstgrad verpönt ist. Erfolg wird gemessen, ne Vermeidung von Fehlern ist auch 1 meiner Lieblingssprüche zu dem Thema.\n\nAber das bedeutet dann natürlich, wenn man sich beobachtbar macht, wenn man sich an ganz konkreten Zielen misst, wenn man sich an Wirkungsindikatoren misst, dann gehört es ganz normal dazu, dass man daran auch scheitern kann. Mhm. Und der Punkt ist ja nicht, also wir wollen natürlich nicht scheitern, das ist auch klar, aber das muss vollkommen legitim sein und der Punkt ist dann, daraus wieder zu lernen und daraus die nächste Maßnahme dann vielleicht 'n bisschen anders zu strecken, dann in so einen Mechanismus von Lernen der Verwaltung zu kommen, Mhm. Der dann auch wieder auf ganz vielen Ebenen kleine Hebelchen braucht, so zum Beispiel auch Aufstiegschancen, die damit verbunden sein müssen innerhalb der Verwaltung. Also wenn Aufstiegschancen nach diesem Prinzip Fehlervermeidung vergeben werden, verteilt werden, dann hat das wieder 'n negativen Auswirkungen darauf, sich messbar machen lassen zu wollen und darauf dann möglicherweise Ziele nicht zu erreichen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber heißt das, dass man da auch einfach Sachen zurückfahren muss wie so 6 Augen Prinzip, Berichtspflichten und so was? Also muss man da dann auch mit Sachen aufhören oder muss man einfach nur die Sachen, die man misst und kontrolliert, anders bewerten?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich glaube, es wär 'n Gedanke wert, die Punkte, an denen man dann kontrolliert, etwas anders zu setzen. Also mehr Freiräume in der tatsächlichen Ausführung zu geben, wenn man denn dann im Nachgang umso genauer kontrolliert. Also dazu gibt's ja auch schon Mechanismen. Also so so jetzt ja nicht, ist ja auch nicht neu. Aber da die Verantwortung ein bisschen weiter nach hinten zu verlagern, könnte könnte den Prozess beschleunigen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm, okay. Ja. Jetzt zum Abschluss, also hat ja jetzt grad die Koalition ihr Reformpaket vorgestellt, da ist Bürokratieabbau auch 'n wichtiges Thema, also diese Beweislastumkehr, ne. Beweist uns erst mal, dass ihr diese diese Regel braucht und sonst schafft sie ab. Würdet ihr sagen, da ist jetzt gerade 'n besonders günstiges Zeitfenster für sone Neuausrichtung von Hebeln im Betriebssystem?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das ist 'n hoch spannendes Experiment, das da jetzt gerade passiert, weil meistens ist es, also es hat's ja auch schon häufiger mal gegeben, weil Schrift vorm Erfordern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist ja auch schon gemacht, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Und und auch in anderen Themenfeldern, Schrift vorm Erfordernisse fällt mir ein. Da sollten dann auch alle begründen, warum das wichtig ist und da sind doch sehr vielen Leuten sehr viele Dinge eingefallen, warum das\n\nSpeaker 0: so wichtig ist.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Und das ist, wie tatsächlich auch 'n strukturelles Problem. Diese Berichtsspflichten haben ja alle eine Begründung, ne. Die sollten zumindest mal eine Funktion erfüllen, mal eine Wirkung entfalten. Eigentlich müssen wir jetzt hingehen und gucken, ob sie das tun, ob sie diese Wirkung entfalten und nicht, ob die ursprüngliche Gesetzesbegründung immer noch relevant ist.\n\nAber ja, wenn das funktioniert und wenn jetzt nicht die Begründung, warum das alles so wichtig ist, zu viele Ressourcen bindet innerhalb der Verwaltung, dann müssen ja eigentlich Freiräume entstehen und dann entsteht dadurch auch die Möglichkeit, 'n paar Dinge neu zu denken, neu zu machen. Das ist nebenbei bemerkt ja auch durch die Gründung des BMDS, also Bundesministerium für Digitalisierung und Staatsmodernisierung. Das ist ja auch so ein Experiment, etwas ganz neu zu machen. Mhm. Mit vielen Vaterpängigkeiten, aber auch mit vielen Freiräumen, es einfach mal anders zu machen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ja, und es gibt ja auch Instrumente, die jetzt schon im Einsatz sind, die sehr hilfreich sind. Also zum Beispiel die Praxischecks, wo in Ministerien versucht wird, bevor man Verfahren anpasst, zum Beispiel aus Entbürokratisierungsgründen, wo man versucht, im Vorfeld mit Stakeholdern in den Austausch zu treten, genau zu vermeiden, dass das schlussendlich das Problem gar nicht löst oder am Ende die Anpassung 1 Verfahrens keine Wirkung entfaltet. Also es gibt ja gute Ansätze, die auch schon umgesetzt werden. Das muss man immer dazu sagen, ne.\n\nPrima wären nur mehr davon.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ja. Okay. Ja, schönes Schlusswort. Danke euch, beiden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Danke dir.\n\nSpeaker 2: Danke dir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Die vollständige Studie Outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung, die finden Sie zum Nachlesen in den Shownotes. Bei mir im Studio waren Mike Weber und Alinker Roter vom Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut FOCUS. Danke für Ihren Input. Hoffentlich Outcome wünschen wir uns. Mein Name ist Franziska Walser.\n\nDanke fürs Zuhören und bis bald.","paragraphs":[{"sentences":[{"text":"Entscheidend ist, was hinten rauskommt.","start":1.68,"end":3.1999998},{"text":"Das ist 'n legendäres Zitat von Altkanzler Helmut Kohl aus dem Jahr neunzehnhundertvierundachtzig.","start":3.1999998,"end":6.8199997},{"text":"Damals wurde in der Verwaltung noch eifrig gestempelt, Karteikarten sortiert und solche Dinge.","start":7.44,"end":11.86},{"text":"Aber der Spruch ist zeitlos gültig und passt auch zu unserer heutigen Folge von Restart digital, denn unser Thema ist outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung.","start":12.175,"end":20.115},{"text":"Es geht kleine, aber wirkmächtige Stellschrauben im Betriebssystem der Verwaltung.","start":20.815,"end":25.075}],"start":1.68,"end":25.075,"num_words":64.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Was das ist und welche konkreten Beispiele es gibt, darum geht es heute.","start":25.47,"end":28.93},{"text":"Wir sind zurück aus 1 kleinen kreativen Podcast Pause mit frischen Themen und dem bewährten Team.","start":37.87,"end":43.655003},{"text":"Ich bin Franziska Walser und bei mir im Studio sind Alinker Roter, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT, das Fraunhofer Institut FOCUS mit Schwerpunkt Verwaltungstransformation und Digitalpolitik.","start":43.655003,"end":54.890003},{"text":"Hallo, Erlinker.","start":55.030003,"end":55.77},{"text":"Hallo Franziska.","start":55.83,"end":56.57}],"start":25.47,"end":56.57,"num_words":60.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des ÖFÖT.","start":57.11,"end":60.39},{"text":"Hallo, Mike.","start":60.39,"end":61.13}],"start":57.11,"end":61.13,"num_words":12.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Hallo, Franziska.","start":61.27,"end":62.09}],"start":61.27,"end":62.09,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Wir sprechen heute mal wieder auf der Basis von 'ner aktuellen Veröffentlichung.","start":62.15,"end":65.29},{"text":"Da hast Du mitgearbeitet, Maik und der Titel ist Outcome orientierte Staatsmodernisierung, Hebel im Betriebssystem der Verwaltung.","start":66.134995,"end":73.195},{"text":"Ich bin da über diese Betriebssystemmetapher gestolpert.","start":73.73499,"end":76.715},{"text":"Was wär denn Teil des Betriebssystems in dieser Vorstellung?","start":76.774994,"end":79.515}],"start":62.15,"end":79.515,"num_words":45.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, mit der Betriebssystem Metapher haben wir sehr gerungen.","start":79.87,"end":82.229996},{"text":"Mhm.","start":82.229996,"end":82.51},{"text":"Es gibt ja auch andere Verwendungen dafür, zum Beispiel wird gerne gerade auf lokaler Ebene bei Kommunalverwaltung vom Betriebssystemen und des Gemeinwesens auf lokaler Ebene gesprochen.","start":82.51,"end":92.369995},{"text":"Das ist genau nicht unser Punkt.","start":92.575005,"end":94.175}],"start":79.87,"end":94.175,"num_words":42.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Okay.","start":94.175,"end":94.495}],"start":94.175,"end":94.495,"num_words":1.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und deswegen haben wir son bisschen damit gerungen, ob wir den Begriff wirklich verwenden wollen.","start":94.495,"end":97.875},{"text":"Uns geht es darum, wie funktioniert Verwaltung intern?","start":98.095,"end":101.075},{"text":"Also welche Regeln gibt es da?","start":101.455,"end":102.815},{"text":"Ja.","start":102.815,"end":103.055},{"text":"Welche Geschäftsverteilungspläne, welche Geschäftsordnungen und so weiter und so weiter.","start":103.055,"end":107.74}],"start":94.495,"end":107.74,"num_words":40.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Nach welchen Prinzipien funktioniert die Verwaltung intern?","start":107.799995,"end":110.78},{"text":"Und das ist unser großes Thema.","start":110.92,"end":112.119995},{"text":"Also","start":112.119995,"end":112.28}],"start":107.799995,"end":112.28,"num_words":14.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"wie bei 'nem Computerprogramm diese diese Logiken oder Algorithmen, die da so eingeschrieben sind und die man dann aber eben auch verändern kann, so bisschen in die Richtung, oder?","start":112.28,"end":119.405}],"start":112.28,"end":119.405,"num_words":29.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, im Grunde konnte man das so sehen, dass die Verwaltung oder dieses Betriebssystem die einzelnen Elemente deines Rechners orchestriert und genauso versuchen wir auch auf die Verwaltung zu gucken.","start":119.405,"end":129.165}],"start":119.405,"end":129.165,"num_words":30.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und das ist wirkmächtig, obwohl da ja Menschen arbeiten sozusagen, aber das funktioniert trotzdem, dass man sich mal auf die Regeln guckt und nicht auf die Teammik oder so.","start":129.165,"end":137.19}],"start":129.165,"end":137.19,"num_words":29.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Wir haben ja Gott sei Dank eine regelbasierte Verwaltung.","start":137.19,"end":139.53},{"text":"Also die Regeln sind ganz zentral für Verwaltungshandeln, natürlich.","start":139.75,"end":142.73}],"start":137.19,"end":142.73,"num_words":18.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, okay.","start":142.87,"end":143.84999},{"text":"Alinka, kannst Du mal kurz sagen, was passiert denn, wenn's nicht gut läuft, also bei diesen Programmen Regeln?","start":143.98999,"end":149.22499}],"start":142.87,"end":149.22499,"num_words":20.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also grundsätzlich passiert dann ganz viel, daher könnte ich jetzt so viele Beispiele nennen, das ist schwer, das jetzt auszuführen.","start":150.165,"end":157.065},{"text":"Vielleicht sollte man auch vorweg sagen, ganz oft funktioniert das auch sehr gut.","start":157.525,"end":160.805},{"text":"Also wir wollen jetzt gar nicht mit 'ner Generalkritik starten.","start":160.805,"end":163.76001},{"text":"In diesem Papier gehen wir grundsätzlich davon aus, dass im Moment die Problemlösungsfähigkeit des Staates und damit eben auch die Problemlösungsfähigkeit der Verwaltung infrage gestellt wird oder angezweifelt wird, vielleicht nicht vollumfänglich, aber zumindest in Teilen.","start":164.62001,"end":179.755},{"text":"Wir nehmen wahr, dass das eine Wahrnehmung in der Bevölkerung ist und zum Teil aber auch in den Behördenleitungen selbst.","start":179.755,"end":185.055}],"start":150.165,"end":185.055,"num_words":99.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also intern und extern.","start":185.19499,"end":186.475}],"start":185.19499,"end":186.475,"num_words":4.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, also wie gut kann der Staat und damit eben auch die Verwaltung spezifische gesellschaftliche Probleme wirklich lösen?","start":186.475,"end":192.635},{"text":"Ich würde sagen, das ist unser ganz grober Ausgangspunkt.","start":192.635,"end":196.54}],"start":186.475,"end":196.54,"num_words":27.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja.","start":197.08,"end":197.58},{"text":"Was ja auch daran liegt, dass es einfach diese Multikrisenzeit gibt.","start":197.64,"end":200.52},{"text":"Wir haben Fachkräftemangel.","start":200.52,"end":201.26},{"text":"Also da gibt's ja auch andere Faktoren, aber wie gesagt, das liegt eben zum Teil auch an diesem Betriebssystem oder zumindest man kann man's lösen, indem man über diese Hebel geht, die ihr da identifiziert habt.","start":201.8,"end":210.395}],"start":197.08,"end":210.395,"num_words":51.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, das kann ein Ansatzpunkt sein.","start":210.395,"end":212.555}],"start":210.395,"end":212.555,"num_words":6.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":212.555,"end":212.955},{"text":"Okay.","start":212.955,"end":213.275}],"start":212.555,"end":213.275,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, da geht ja sogar noch 'n kleine Schrittchen weiter.","start":213.275,"end":215.595},{"text":"Mhm.","start":215.595,"end":215.915},{"text":"Wir sagen, ohne diese Hebel umzulegen Genau.","start":215.915,"end":218.555},{"text":"Nützt vieles andere dann auch nicht so, wie man es sich erhoffen würde.","start":218.635,"end":222.33}],"start":213.275,"end":222.33,"num_words":31.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also man kann sehr schöne Gesetze zum Beispiel machen, gute Ideen haben, aber dann hakt sozusagen auf dem Weg zur Umsetzung.","start":222.57,"end":229.05}],"start":222.57,"end":229.05,"num_words":21.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":229.05,"end":229.45}],"start":229.05,"end":229.45,"num_words":1.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm, okay.","start":229.45,"end":230.19},{"text":"Genau und Hebel heißt aber ja auch, wir sprechen jetzt nicht hier über Abriss und Neubau, sondern über Justierungen eher, ne?","start":230.25,"end":236.385}],"start":229.45,"end":236.385,"num_words":23.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":236.385,"end":236.625},{"text":"Ja.","start":236.625,"end":236.945},{"text":"Genau.","start":236.945,"end":237.265},{"text":"Wir wollen dieses funktionierende Verwaltungsgebilde überhaupt gar nicht abreißen.","start":237.265,"end":240.80501},{"text":"Da sind auch international sehr viele neidisch drauf.","start":241.265,"end":243.985}],"start":236.385,"end":243.985,"num_words":20.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja.","start":243.985,"end":244.065},{"text":"Und das wollen wir gerne erhalten.","start":244.065,"end":245.525}],"start":243.985,"end":245.525,"num_words":7.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Okay.","start":245.985,"end":246.385},{"text":"Maik, hast Du da 'n Beispiel für einen Hebel, also wo man sagt, okay, da hapert's relativ oft in der Umsetzung, sag ich jetzt mal.","start":246.385,"end":253.56}],"start":245.985,"end":253.56,"num_words":26.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Oh, soweit würd ich schon gar nicht mehr gehen, ne.","start":253.56,"end":255.23999},{"text":"Ja.","start":255.23999,"end":255.73999},{"text":"Aber ein Hebel ist zum Beispiel das Haushaltsrecht, wo es ja auch wunderbare Ansätze gibt, das ein bisschen weiterzuentwickeln und zu reformieren auf Wirkung.","start":256.19998,"end":265.02},{"text":"Im Moment haben wir halt immer noch diese Denke Haushaltsrecht, ich mache 'n Titel auf und wenn ich den Titel dann entsprechend bestücke, also Geld hinterlege, dann habe ich das Problem gelöst, so ungefähr.","start":266.01498,"end":279.875},{"text":"Und dieser Schritt ist halt einfach viel zu kurz.","start":280.72998,"end":283.13}],"start":253.56,"end":283.13,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Da sind wir ja nur bei den Inputfaktoren, also nur das, was ich reingebe.","start":283.13,"end":286.43}],"start":283.13,"end":286.43,"num_words":14.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, also ich will was erreichen, ich berechne, wie viel Geld könnte das kosten, schieb's rein sozusagen und denkst, kommt's auf der anderen Seite gelöst wieder raus.","start":286.65,"end":294.00998}],"start":286.65,"end":294.00998,"num_words":27.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Dann macht die Maschine und dann ist alles gut.","start":294.00998,"end":296.415},{"text":"Und da haben wir halt etliche Bereiche, zum Beispiel auch eine Zersplitterung von Zuständigkeiten, die dann dazu führt, dass dann vielleicht diese Haushaltsmittel, sagen wir, sehr spezifisch umgesetzt verausgabt werden und nicht unbedingt dann mit Blick auf die Wirkung.","start":296.975,"end":308.67502}],"start":294.00998,"end":308.67502,"num_words":48.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und genau, also ihr habt jetzt zum Beispiel Wohnungsbau, glaube ich, wird genannt, das da sind ja 4 Ressorts, die zusammen planen müssen.","start":309.055,"end":314.49002},{"text":"Also manchmal ist es ja aber auch wirklich komplex, ne.","start":314.49002,"end":316.81},{"text":"Also","start":316.81,"end":317.31}],"start":309.055,"end":317.31,"num_words":34.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, und unter der vergangenen Regierung war das so.","start":317.61002,"end":321.13},{"text":"Da ist es bemerkenswert, also da sind ganz viele Aspekte, die da noch reinkommen.","start":321.13,"end":324.69498},{"text":"Der der eine Aspekt, über den wir noch gar nicht geredet haben, ist, dass wir ja das Grundproblem bei 1 Außenwahrnehmung gesehen.","start":324.69498,"end":332.155},{"text":"Mhm.","start":332.615,"end":333.01498},{"text":"Also das bedeutet auch, die Ansprüche der Bürgerinnen und Bürger wandeln sich.","start":333.01498,"end":337.59497}],"start":317.61002,"end":337.59497,"num_words":58.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Sie wollen natürlich eine rechtsförmig funktionierende Verwaltung, sie wollen aber eben auch eine Verwaltung, die ihre ganz konkreten Probleme löst.","start":338.4,"end":344.63998},{"text":"Das wird immer, Du bist ja auch berechtigt, ich will das gar nicht kritisieren.","start":344.63998,"end":347.68},{"text":"Ich nehme das nur wahr, dass sie das Anspruchsniveau da durchaus eher steigt.","start":347.68,"end":352.025}],"start":338.4,"end":352.025,"num_words":47.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":352.405,"end":352.725},{"text":"Ja, auch interessante Beobachtungen.","start":352.725,"end":354.005},{"text":"Das stimmt, es geht eben auch diese Außenperspektive und die wahrgenommene Wirkung.","start":354.005,"end":358.665},{"text":"Ist ist auch 'n wichtiger Ansatz, ne?","start":358.725,"end":360.245}],"start":352.405,"end":360.245,"num_words":24.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":360.245,"end":360.645},{"text":"Und die Überlegung ist halt diese Außenperspektive jetzt ein bisschen in die Verwaltung mit reinzubringen.","start":360.645,"end":364.425}],"start":360.245,"end":364.425,"num_words":16.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, okay.","start":364.48502,"end":365.20502},{"text":"Mhm.","start":365.20502,"end":365.70502},{"text":"Euer Lösungsvorschlag oder wie man da drauf gucken könnte, das ist das I00I Modell, das hat 4 Stufen Input, Output, Outcome und Impact.","start":366.23,"end":376.89},{"text":"Kann man das mal kurz an 'nem Beispiel durchgehen?","start":377.59,"end":380.595},{"text":"Also was wäre die Stufe 1, 2, 3, 4, weil es klingt son bisschen ähnlich, ne, irgendwie Output Outcome.","start":380.595,"end":385.57498}],"start":364.48502,"end":385.57498,"num_words":54.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, also wir schlagen vor, dass man sich vor allem dem Outcome zuwendet.","start":385.875,"end":391.735},{"text":"Die Voraussetzung dafür ist, dass auch wir uns, wie viele andere sich mit dem Thema Wirkungsorientierung befassen.","start":393.13,"end":397.85},{"text":"Also das ist ja das, worum's eigentlich geht.","start":397.85,"end":399.29},{"text":"Wie können Probleme besser gelöst werden?","start":399.29,"end":401.37},{"text":"Wie können wir wirkungsorientiertes Verwaltungshandeln schaffen?","start":401.37,"end":403.77}],"start":385.875,"end":403.77,"num_words":50.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und darüber reden ganz viele dauernd, ne.","start":403.77,"end":406.17},{"text":"Das ist jetzt gar nichts Neues.","start":406.17,"end":407.71},{"text":"Und wir wollen dabei auf Outcome fokussieren und dafür kann ich vielleicht kurz einmal aufschlüsseln, was meint Input, Output, Outcome Genau, gerne und 'n Beispiel.","start":408.115,"end":416.59497}],"start":403.77,"end":416.59497,"num_words":38.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also ich glaube, ihr habt das Deutschlandticket Beispiel oder Genau.","start":416.59497,"end":419.63498},{"text":"Oder vielleicht","start":419.715,"end":420.35498}],"start":416.59497,"end":420.35498,"num_words":12.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"mach ich's mit Deutschlandticket.","start":420.35498,"end":421.335},{"text":"Ich guck mal.","start":421.395,"end":422.1},{"text":"Also Input meint erst mal innerhalb der Verwaltung, also es geht immer den Verwaltungsvollzug sozusagen, welche Ressourcen stehen für die Umsetzung 1 Maßnahme zur Verfügung?","start":422.34,"end":432.92},{"text":"Also wie viel Ressourcen habe ich, all das abzuwickeln, was dann später zu einem Deutschlandticket führt, zum Beispiel, ne.","start":433.06,"end":433.54},{"text":"Output meint, führt zum Beispiel, ne.","start":433.54,"end":441.155}],"start":420.35498,"end":441.155,"num_words":57.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Output meint das, was ganz konkret als Leistung herauskommt, aus dem, was da erarbeitet wurde.","start":441.155,"end":447.63498},{"text":"Das kann dann zum Beispiel das konkrete Verwaltungsangebot sein, also das Deutschlandticket.","start":447.63498,"end":451.41498},{"text":"Damit kann aber auch so was, wenn man jetzt stärker in Verwaltungslogiken oder in der Verwaltungsdigitalisierung denkt, dann kann das auch die Anzahl von Bescheiden sein, die ausgestellt werden kann oder 'n spezifisches Onlineangebot, all diese Dinge, ne.","start":452.0,"end":464.48},{"text":"Und outcome geht dann schon Richtung Wirkung.","start":464.48,"end":466.98},{"text":"Outcome meint, ob diese spezifische, ich sag jetzt mal Maßnahme, das könnte man auch anders nennen, eine Verhaltensänderung bei der Zielgruppe bewirkt.","start":467.465,"end":479.065}],"start":441.155,"end":479.065,"num_words":94.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also in","start":479.065,"end":479.385}],"start":479.065,"end":479.385,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"dem Fall, die fahren mehr mit öffentlichen Verkehrsmitteln zum Beispiel.","start":479.385,"end":482.46}],"start":479.385,"end":482.46,"num_words":10.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Zum Beispiel, genau, da spielen dann verschiedene Faktoren mit rein und auch das ist schon gar nicht so leicht zu messen, weil was meint eigentlich Verhaltensänderung?","start":482.62,"end":490.47998},{"text":"Welche Verhaltensänderung war eigentlich gewollt?","start":491.41998,"end":493.81998},{"text":"Also schon das ist relativ komplex, aber wir sagen eben bedingt noch messbar oder zumindest operationalisierbar und verstehbar.","start":493.81998,"end":501.695},{"text":"Also ich kann vielleicht noch das Erreichen meiner Ziele anhand von Verhaltensänderungen messen.","start":501.835,"end":507.935},{"text":"Was es dann noch gibt als vierten Aspekt, auch das ist Teil der Wirkung, ist Impact.","start":508.72998,"end":513.31}],"start":482.62,"end":513.31,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Das wird ganz häufig und ganz viel besprochen.","start":513.52997,"end":515.37},{"text":"Das hört man eigentlich dauernd.","start":515.37,"end":516.75},{"text":"Und das meint gesamtgesellschaftliche Veränderungen.","start":517.52997,"end":520.58997},{"text":"Also da kann man dann jetzt in Deutschland beim Deutschlandticket könnte man jetzt Thema Nachhaltigkeit ganz groß machen, ne.","start":520.97,"end":527.425},{"text":"Das sind dann die ganz großen gesamtgesellschaftlichen Veränderungen.","start":527.425,"end":530.805}],"start":513.52997,"end":530.805,"num_words":45.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Die sind unglaublich wichtig und ganz häufig ist ja genau das das, was gewollt wird, wenn bestimmte Gesetze oder so weiter erlassen werden, aber das ist auch ganz schwer messbar.","start":531.265,"end":541.8},{"text":"Das hat damit zu tun, dass Zusammenhänge einfach ganz schwer messbar sind, die sind hochkomplex.","start":541.86,"end":547.56},{"text":"Da Kausalitäten nachzuvollziehen, ist anspruchsvoll.","start":548.18,"end":550.92},{"text":"Ja.","start":551.38,"end":551.7},{"text":"Das kann man machen und das kann auch.","start":551.7,"end":553.485}],"start":531.265,"end":553.485,"num_words":59.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Es ist zum Beispiel eine Aufgabe der Wissenschaft, aber wir suchen ja nach Steuerungsinstrumenten und dafür muss etwas messbar gemacht werden und da halten wir Outcome für zugänglicher und vor allem für leichter umzuwandeln in ein Steuerungsinstrument.","start":553.485,"end":567.02496}],"start":553.485,"end":567.02496,"num_words":37.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, nee, weil man könnte sich ja vorstellen, man will CO2 Ausstoß reduzieren, aber kann ja sein, man fördert gleichzeitig E-Autos oder irgendwas noch und dann kann man irgendwie schlechter sagen, okay, das hat jetzt zu dem geführt.","start":567.97,"end":578.23}],"start":567.97,"end":578.23,"num_words":38.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, das ist das Problem.","start":578.52997,"end":579.81},{"text":"Ja.","start":579.81,"end":580.065},{"text":"Also es kann ja auch ganz andere steigende Benzinpreise","start":580.145,"end":582.245}],"start":578.52997,"end":582.245,"num_words":15.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":583.185,"end":583.585}],"start":583.185,"end":583.585,"num_words":1.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Aktuelles Beispiel zu nehmen, kann auch dazu führen oder eine Wirtschaftskrise kann dazu führen, dass der CO2 Ausstoß auch im Verkehrssektor sinkt.","start":583.665,"end":589.425},{"text":"Und genau das ist das Problem.","start":589.425,"end":590.625},{"text":"Also die zumindest die global galaktischen Indikatoren lassen sich ja sogar noch ganz gut erfassen.","start":590.625,"end":595.445},{"text":"Aber die Kausalität dahinter ist ja auch enorm schwierig.","start":595.66,"end":598.3}],"start":583.665,"end":598.3,"num_words":52.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Nee, ja, ja.","start":598.3,"end":599.02}],"start":598.3,"end":599.02,"num_words":3.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und dazu braucht man halt die Verhaltensänderungen.","start":599.02,"end":600.56},{"text":"Also kaufen wir jetzt das Deutschlandticket, zusätzlich zu fahren oder substituieren Sie nur Ihr altes Ticket, das einfach teurer war oder fahren andere jetzt mehr?","start":601.1,"end":610.52496},{"text":"Das ist ja auch noch zumindest 'n denkbares Szenario, fahren andere jetzt mehr, weil die Straßen frei sind.","start":610.52496,"end":615.40497}],"start":599.02,"end":615.40497,"num_words":50.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, ja.","start":615.40497,"end":616.045}],"start":615.40497,"end":616.045,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ist schon komplex, die Wirkungsebene Ja.","start":616.045,"end":618.52496},{"text":"Zu untersuchen.","start":618.605,"end":619.165},{"text":"Ja.","start":619.165,"end":619.32495},{"text":"Aber welchen Impact es dann tatsächlich hatte, das ist ohne wissenschaftliche Großuntersuchung kaum zu erfassen.","start":619.32495,"end":625.44}],"start":616.045,"end":625.44,"num_words":24.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":625.44,"end":625.76},{"text":"Okay und das ist eben, warum wir Outcome dem Impact vorziehen würden und aber Output sozusagen die Stufe davor, also wo man sagen könnte, ich weiß ich nicht, ich hab 100000 Abos verkauft oder so was.","start":625.76,"end":636.365},{"text":"Das wär dann wieder zu wenig?","start":636.365,"end":637.665}],"start":625.44,"end":637.665,"num_words":43.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, da da wissen wir dann halt wieder nicht so ganz genau, hat das jetzt wirklich eine Veränderung bewirkt.","start":638.125,"end":642.785},{"text":"Also wir haben schon gesagt, fahren Sie einfach nur mehr.","start":643.325,"end":646.38},{"text":"Die Leute, die sich dieses Ticket gekauft haben, dann hätte man aus 'ner Klimaschutzperspektive sogar tendenziell eher 'n negativen Effekt, wenn ich mehr ÖPNV fahren lasse.","start":646.62,"end":655.92}],"start":638.125,"end":655.92,"num_words":55.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und was wär so euer Eindruck, also wenn man jetzt diese 4 Stufen im Blick hat, ist es so, dass wenn eine Maßnahme, also 'n Gesetz oder irgendwas erarbeitet wird, dass man dann mehr Anfang und Ende denkt, aber nicht so diese Zwischenschritte oder also wird dieses Outcome wirklich mitgedacht?","start":656.3,"end":670.66504}],"start":656.3,"end":670.66504,"num_words":50.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Im Moment lässt sich eher eine Input und Output fokussierte Steuerung konstatieren.","start":671.205,"end":676.13995},{"text":"Das machen natürlich nicht nur wir, sondern auch ganz viele andere.","start":676.27997,"end":678.6},{"text":"Also Verwaltungsvollzug, Handeln in der Verwaltung selbst wird stärker über den Input gesteuert.","start":678.6,"end":683.89996},{"text":"Also die Frage auch vor dem Hintergrund des Prinzips der Sparsamkeit, das ja auch sehr, sehr wichtig ist.","start":684.12,"end":689.24},{"text":"Also wie können wir möglichst sparsam eine spezifische Maßnahme vollziehen?","start":689.24,"end":695.225}],"start":671.205,"end":695.225,"num_words":64.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Was zusätzlich häufig auch in den Blick kommt, auch zunehmend in den Blick kommt, ist Output.","start":695.925,"end":701.305},{"text":"Mhm.","start":701.365,"end":701.685},{"text":"Ne, also man versucht schon zu messen, okay, was haben wir damit jetzt konkret erreicht?","start":701.685,"end":705.43},{"text":"Was ist der Output?","start":705.43,"end":706.57},{"text":"Und Steuerung über Wirkung über, jetzt in unserem Fall sprechen wir von Outcome ist seltener anzutreffen.","start":707.50995,"end":713.82996}],"start":695.925,"end":713.82996,"num_words":52.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Auch da gibt's mittlerweile viele Beispiele und die werden auch in der Studie ausgeführt, aber es ist eben noch nicht so in der Breite und vor allem nicht strukturell verankert.","start":713.82996,"end":720.90497},{"text":"Was noch wichtig ist, damit das nicht untergeht, die Steuerung über Input ist 'n ganz wichtiges demokratisches Element.","start":721.045,"end":726.40497},{"text":"Mhm.","start":726.40497,"end":726.805},{"text":"Also das ist wirklich sehr, sehr wichtig, weil das ist das Parlament, das den Haushalt kontrolliert und wir brauchen diese Exekutivkontrolle.","start":726.805,"end":732.54004},{"text":"Also es geht uns nicht darum zu sagen, wir können nicht mehr auf den Input gucken, sondern wir sagen, kann man Strukturen, Regeln so anpassen, dass auch eine stärker wirkungsorientierte Steuerung möglich wird.","start":733.48004,"end":746.98505}],"start":713.82996,"end":746.98505,"num_words":103.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Wenn ich noch ergänzen darf, also es gibt ja gute Gründe, hast Du ja eben wunderbar beschrieben.","start":747.125,"end":751.36505},{"text":"Also auf 'ner politischen Ebene heißt es dann ja, wir machen die und die konkrete Maßnahme und damit erreichen wir den und den Impact.","start":751.36505,"end":759.705},{"text":"Das Problem ist, dass diese wunderbare IOOI Linie dann nicht durchdekliniert wird,","start":760.28,"end":765.24}],"start":747.125,"end":765.24,"num_words":53.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":765.4,"end":765.72003}],"start":765.4,"end":765.72003,"num_words":1.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Auch aus guten Gründen teilweise.","start":765.8,"end":767.74},{"text":"Und 1 der Voraussetzungen wäre, das auch noch stärker im Gesetzgebungsprozess oder in jeder Form von Regelsetzung zu verankern, sich selbst dieser Kausalitäten bewusster zu werden, das selbst noch mal aus 'ner anderen Perspektive zu durchdenken.","start":768.52,"end":782.855},{"text":"Und dann natürlich, und da kommen wir dann in schwierige Bereiche rein, besser messbar zu sein, besser kontrollierbar zu sein und es ist natürlich auch mit einem gewissen Aufwand verbunden, der natürlich auch wieder gerechtfertigt sein muss.","start":783.555,"end":795.8}],"start":765.8,"end":795.8,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, klar.","start":795.8,"end":796.51996},{"text":"Genau, also die guten Gründe wären der Aufwand.","start":796.51996,"end":799.10504},{"text":"Also wenn ich Wirkung messen will, produzier ich 'n Zusatzaufwand, der die überlasteten Verwaltungen möglicherweise noch mehr überlastet.","start":799.10504,"end":805.745},{"text":"Das ist 1 der Gründe, warum man sich das sparen wollen könnte sozusagen.","start":805.745,"end":809.28503}],"start":795.8,"end":809.28503,"num_words":41.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Absolut.","start":809.505,"end":810.005},{"text":"Ja.","start":810.065,"end":810.22504},{"text":"Ja, ja.","start":810.22504,"end":810.625}],"start":809.505,"end":810.625,"num_words":4.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm, okay.","start":810.625,"end":811.365}],"start":810.625,"end":811.365,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Doch.","start":811.56995,"end":811.64996},{"text":"Also es ist ja dann auch, ich hab 'n zusätzlichen Aufwand und mach mich dadurch dann auch noch kontrollierbarer.","start":811.64996,"end":816.38995}],"start":811.56995,"end":816.38995,"num_words":20.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, das ist ja auch 'n Risiko zu sagen, okay, ich wollte wirklich, weiß ich nicht, 20 Prozent weniger Autos auf den Straßen, das kann ich ja dann nachmessen, ne.","start":816.85,"end":824.61},{"text":"Hab ich's entweder geschafft oder hab ich's nicht geschafft.","start":824.61,"end":826.29},{"text":"Also das ist auch son Risiko.","start":826.29,"end":827.835}],"start":816.85,"end":827.835,"num_words":45.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, das ist aus Verwaltungsperspektive problematisch.","start":828.135,"end":831.195}],"start":828.135,"end":831.195,"num_words":6.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Okay.","start":832.135,"end":832.635},{"text":"Ja und ja, leuchtet mir alles total ein.","start":833.255,"end":835.575},{"text":"Und was gibt's dann da für pragmatische Lösungen?","start":835.575,"end":837.415},{"text":"Also wie komme ich dann daran und motiviere die Leute, das zu machen?","start":837.415,"end":840.36}],"start":832.135,"end":840.36,"num_words":30.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also die Idee ist ja, dass wir versuchen, diese Wirkungsorientierung in die Verwaltung zu bringen, in der Hoffnung, dass sie dann auch wirklich mehr Wirkungen entfaltet.","start":840.6,"end":847.01996},{"text":"Das ist ja auch immer eine starke Hypothese, die hinter dem ganzen Papier steht.","start":847.07996,"end":850.38},{"text":"Muss ja gar nicht so sein, aber davon gehen wir mal aus.","start":850.51996,"end":853.98},{"text":"Wenn man davon ausgeht, dann ist, glaube ich, unter den gegebenen Rahmenbedingungen, die wir eben schon andiskutiert haben, gibt es gar keine Alternative dazu, anstatt die Wirkung des Verwaltungshandeln und staatlichen Handlungs zu erhöhen.","start":854.36,"end":866.995},{"text":"Das ist, glaube ich, ganz essenziell, nicht nur für die Wahrnehmung, sondern auch halt für die realen Krisen, die wir halt haben.","start":867.29504,"end":872.86}],"start":840.6,"end":872.86,"num_words":108.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":872.86,"end":873.36},{"text":"Und dann geht es eigentlich die Frage, nicht mehr das Ob, sondern nur noch das Wie.","start":873.74,"end":878.13995},{"text":"Und da ist natürlich immer der Traum, dass man möglichst versucht, vorhandene Daten zu nutzen, zum Beispiel, das es","start":878.13995,"end":883.625}],"start":872.86,"end":883.625,"num_words":36.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"diesen Aufwand toll.","start":884.025,"end":884.66504},{"text":"Bisschen zu reduzieren, ne?","start":884.825,"end":886.025}],"start":884.025,"end":886.025,"num_words":7.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":886.025,"end":886.185},{"text":"Mhm.","start":886.185,"end":886.505},{"text":"Und möglichst automatisiert einlesbare Daten.","start":886.505,"end":888.92505},{"text":"Also man kann sicherlich nicht für jedes kleine Projektchen da 'n Riesenevaluation und und Wirkungsmessung dran Nur wenn man sich vorher, das ist wieder mal 'n Punkt von eben, wenn man sich vorher schon darüber Gedanken macht, na, wo will ich denn hin und wie könnte ich das eventuell messen und vielleicht sogar schon, was hab ich da für Daten und welche könnte ich dafür ranziehen, dann wird hinterher der Aufwand auch deutlich geringer.","start":889.145,"end":908.04}],"start":886.025,"end":908.04,"num_words":81.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, okay.","start":908.04,"end":908.94},{"text":"Alina, Du hast vorhin schon dieses Prinzip der Sparsamkeit, ne, was ja wichtig ist auch angesprochen, also dieses Minimalprinzip, was ja im Haushaltsrecht gibt.","start":909.245,"end":917.565},{"text":"Also ich will mit wenigen Ressourcen möglichst viel erreichen und da gibt's ja auch eine Stelle in der Veröffentlichung, wo ihr sagt, das ist eine gute Idee, aber die kann zum Problem werden.","start":917.565,"end":927.57996},{"text":"Kannst Du das noch mal erklären?","start":927.8,"end":929.18}],"start":908.04,"end":929.18,"num_words":65.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, also grundsätzlich ist es natürlich wichtig, Ressourcen zu monitoren und dafür braucht man Vorgaben und Zuständigkeiten und all das hängt auch eng mit demokratischer Kontrolle zusammen.","start":929.64,"end":939.945},{"text":"Es kann aber eben auch zu Fehlanreizen führen oder hemmend wirken, ne.","start":939.945,"end":945.965},{"text":"Zum Beispiel werden über Haushaltstitel bestimmte Gelder für bestimmte sehr spezifische Aufgaben zugewiesen, die dann in 1 Verwaltungsentität bearbeitet werden für einen Zeitraum x, zum Beispiel für ein Jahr.","start":946.185,"end":959.78}],"start":929.64,"end":959.78,"num_words":68.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, also sagen wir mal jetzt sehr konkret irgendwie, Du musst Führerscheine ausgeben.","start":959.78,"end":963.615},{"text":"Normalerweise sind das 10000 pro Jahr, da berechnen wir so und so viel Geld dafür.","start":963.675,"end":967.755},{"text":"Sowas, wäre das 'n Beispiel oder?","start":967.755,"end":969.355}],"start":959.78,"end":969.355,"num_words":34.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, genau so kann man das schon darstellen.","start":969.355,"end":971.295},{"text":"Ja.","start":971.355,"end":971.755},{"text":"Und es ist nicht immer so, dass das System belohnt, wenn eine solche Aufgabe besonders gut ausgeführt wurde.","start":971.755,"end":979.02},{"text":"Es kann zum Beispiel sein, dass eine, ich sag jetzt mal immer, Entität, das ist son bisschen abstrakter Begriff, aber eine Verwaltungseinheit im Rahmen ihrer Ressourcen, die zumeist eher knapp sind, diese Aufgabe sehr gut erfüllt und sogar weniger Ressourcen braucht als angenommen.","start":979.02,"end":995.17505},{"text":"Das kann zum Beispiel zu 1 Budgetkürzung führen.","start":995.715,"end":999.17505}],"start":969.355,"end":999.17505,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, weil dann das wird dann fortgeschrieben und dann wird gesagt, ach Mensch, jetzt habt ihr ja die 10000 Führerscheine mit 8 Leuten geschafft.","start":999.55505,"end":1004.99506},{"text":"Genau.","start":1004.99506,"end":1005.23505},{"text":"Mit 10.","start":1005.23505,"end":1005.79504},{"text":"Genau.","start":1005.79504,"end":1006.29504},{"text":"Streichen wir die Stellen.","start":1006.4,"end":1007.44}],"start":999.55505,"end":1007.44,"num_words":32.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau.","start":1007.44,"end":1007.76}],"start":1007.44,"end":1007.76,"num_words":1.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"So und das ist natürlich problematisch schon mit Blick auf die Aufgabenerfüllung, aber auch auf die Verwaltungseinheit selbst.","start":1007.76,"end":1013.28},{"text":"Keiner will solche Kürzungen und das ist ein Beispiel für eine Fehlintzündivierung, da gibt's aber mehrere, da kann Maik sicher auch gleich noch was dazu sagen.","start":1013.28,"end":1020.82},{"text":"Wir drücken das jetzt natürlich sehr, sehr zugespitzt aus, aber wir versuchen ja deutlich zu machen, wo Fehlanreize liegen können, ne.","start":1021.455,"end":1028.595},{"text":"Okay.","start":1028.655,"end":1028.735},{"text":"Das ich hab Du ergänzen Ja, willst Du was sagen dazu, Maik?","start":1028.735,"end":1031.395}],"start":1007.76,"end":1031.395,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, gerne.","start":1031.535,"end":1032.275},{"text":"Das klassische Dezemberfieber.","start":1032.415,"end":1034.115}],"start":1031.535,"end":1034.115,"num_words":5.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau, exakt.","start":1034.79,"end":1035.99}],"start":1034.79,"end":1035.99,"num_words":2.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Immer noch mal","start":1036.2301,"end":1036.4701}],"start":1036.2301,"end":1036.4701,"num_words":3.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Wenn man mal ganz viele Projekte sich ausdenken, wenn's","start":1036.6301,"end":1038.87}],"start":1036.6301,"end":1038.87,"num_words":9.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Eher, vor allem ganz viel Geld ausgeben, damit das Budget ausgeschöpft wird, dann zu zeigen, ja, wir brauchen das Geld wirklich.","start":1039.67,"end":1045.29},{"text":"Also das ist ja schon im im Volksmund angekommen, dieser Mechanismus.","start":1045.5901,"end":1048.9701},{"text":"Es gibt noch son paar, wenn man 'n bisschen in diese Logik reinguckt, die ja mit völlig d'accord eigentlich ja super klingt, ne.","start":1049.255,"end":1057.495},{"text":"Also wir wollen, wir haben festgelegt eine Maßnahme und die wollen wir möglichst minimalen Mitteleinsatz erreichen.","start":1057.495,"end":1063.72},{"text":"Das klingt ja erst mal super.","start":1063.78,"end":1065.24}],"start":1039.67,"end":1065.24,"num_words":77.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Dann in der konkreten Umsetzung gibt's dann aber so paar Kleinigkeiten.","start":1066.34,"end":1069.88},{"text":"Also wenn ich jetzt als Ministerium mir eine neue Maßnahme vornehme, bis die dann erst mal durch den politischen Prozess durch ist und so was, das dauert dann natürlich auch noch 'n bisschen, wenn sie denn gewollt wird, wenn sie politisch gewollt wird.","start":1069.94,"end":1081.205},{"text":"Aber dann geht's ja los.","start":1081.745,"end":1082.865},{"text":"Dann hab ich diese neue Aufgabe, dann kriege ich eventuell Stellen.","start":1082.865,"end":1086.76},{"text":"Stellen bedeuten aber nicht notwendigerweise Personen und dann dauert das, bis ich mein Personal entsprechend akquiriert habe und dafür auf diese Aufgaben wirklich loslassen kann.","start":1086.76,"end":1097.26}],"start":1066.34,"end":1097.26,"num_words":95.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Möglicherweise kann ich diese Stellen auch gar nicht komplett besetzen.","start":1097.4,"end":1099.925}],"start":1097.4,"end":1099.925,"num_words":10.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Weil Fachkräftemangel zum Beispiel, ja.","start":1099.925,"end":1101.605}],"start":1099.925,"end":1101.605,"num_words":5.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Fachkräftemangel oder weil die Prozesse so zu lange dauern oder weil einfach keiner will, ja, genau.","start":1101.605,"end":1108.185},{"text":"Also ich hab dann schon Schwierigkeiten, überhaupt halbwegs zeitnah diesen minimalen Mitteleinsatz zu gewährleisten.","start":1108.485,"end":1114.58},{"text":"Und ich dachte, das Beste habe, dass man 1 krank wird, dann wird's noch schlimmer.","start":1114.88,"end":1118.4199},{"text":"Also schon in der Umsetzung hapert's da ein bisschen und dann wird es natürlich auch wahrscheinlicher, dass dann diese Maßnahme doch nicht so umgesetzt wird, wie ja ursprünglich geplant.","start":1118.88,"end":1127.7}],"start":1101.605,"end":1127.7,"num_words":74.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und ihr schlagt eine bessere Lösung vor, das outcome orientierte Maximalprinzip, also Maxi statt mini, was was ist dank die Idee dahinter?","start":1128.0851,"end":1136.885}],"start":1128.0851,"end":1136.885,"num_words":22.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Klingt so nach maßlosem Geldversprechen.","start":1136.885,"end":1138.085},{"text":"Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht.","start":1138.085,"end":1138.2251},{"text":"Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen.","start":1138.2251,"end":1138.245},{"text":"Ja, das ist ja Nein, ganz und gar nicht.","start":1138.245,"end":1141.82},{"text":"Die die die Idee ist, die Logik umzudrehen und zu sagen, wir haben durch den Haushalt, demokratisch legitimiert, ein Input von x Euro und damit wollen wir jetzt den das maximale, die maximale Wirkung entfalten.","start":1142.0399,"end":1156.8151}],"start":1136.885,"end":1156.8151,"num_words":66.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":1156.875,"end":1157.375},{"text":"Also unterstellt natürlich auch, dass ich dann das Mittel entsprechend auch einsetzen kann.","start":1157.435,"end":1161.935},{"text":"Das Problem bleibt natürlich erhalten.","start":1162.0751,"end":1163.915},{"text":"Da gibt's dann wieder andere Stellschrauben, an denen ich drehen muss.","start":1163.915,"end":1166.69},{"text":"Das hat unter anderem den Effekt, dass das Rösser Link eben beschrieben hat, dass ich möglicherweise bestraft werde, wenn ich zu effizient arbeite, dass genau dieser Mechanismus nicht eintreten kann, sondern dann zeige ich hier, guck mal, ich hab, beim Führerschein ist jetzt 'n bisschen schwierig das Beispiel.","start":1166.69,"end":1181.155}],"start":1156.875,"end":1181.155,"num_words":78.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, ja, aber Ich hab mit meinen 8 Leuten 12000 Führerscheine ausgestellt, die keiner haben will.","start":1181.295,"end":1185.935},{"text":"Ist 'n schwieriges Beispiel bei bei allen Dingen.","start":1185.935,"end":1187.4551}],"start":1181.295,"end":1187.4551,"num_words":24.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Oder genau.","start":1187.535,"end":1187.855},{"text":"Ich hab einfach mehr Spielplätze gebaut, als eigentlich vorgesehen waren oder?","start":1187.855,"end":1190.895},{"text":"Genau.","start":1190.895,"end":1191.135},{"text":"Genau.","start":1191.135,"end":1191.535},{"text":"Mhm.","start":1191.535,"end":1191.935}],"start":1187.535,"end":1191.935,"num_words":16.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Okay.","start":1191.935,"end":1192.435},{"text":"Und man kann ja auch son bisschen umschichten.","start":1192.64,"end":1194.2401},{"text":"Also ich fand ganz interessant dieses Praxisbeispiel Perspektive 50 plus von den Jobcentern, was son bisschen zeigt auch, wie man also kreativ im positiven Sinne mit Mitteln auch umgehen kann.","start":1194.2401,"end":1205.04}],"start":1191.935,"end":1205.04,"num_words":39.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, 'n ganz spannendes Beispiel, dass ja auch schon uralt ist.","start":1205.04,"end":1207.425},{"text":"Das ist ja schon, man will rechnen, 20 Jahre alt, wo man versucht hat, aus dieser Haushaltslogik auszubrechen.","start":1207.8251,"end":1213.365},{"text":"Teilweise sind das ja ganz kleine Dinge, die man nur verändern muss.","start":1213.5851,"end":1216.805},{"text":"Also zum Beispiel die Übertragbarkeit von Haushaltsmitteln ins nächste Jahr.","start":1216.865,"end":1219.905},{"text":"Mhm.","start":1219.905,"end":1220.0651}],"start":1205.04,"end":1220.0651,"num_words":52.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ist ja ein gigantisches Thema.","start":1220.0651,"end":1221.8451},{"text":"Ne, deswegen gibt's ja das Dezemberfieber, weil die Mittel werden Ja.","start":1222.5,"end":1224.6001},{"text":"Übertragen und deswegen muss ich's ausgeben und damit signalisieren, dass ich das die Mittel auch wirklich gebraucht habe, also 'n doppelter Effekt.","start":1224.66,"end":1230.9},{"text":"Wie jetzt auch noch mal ganz wichtig ist, es geht uns da den Mechanismus, der dahintersteht, diesen Hebel.","start":1230.9,"end":1236.68},{"text":"Es geht uns gar nicht darum, dass dann da eine Person sitzt, die das Geld verausgabt, sondern es geht darum, dass es dahinter eine Logik gibt, die das befördert, dass es solche Mechanismen gibt.","start":1236.765,"end":1247.0449}],"start":1220.0651,"end":1247.0449,"num_words":90.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja.","start":1247.0449,"end":1247.245},{"text":"Das ist noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, den ich da machen möchte.","start":1247.245,"end":1250.705},{"text":"Ja, und bei diesem bei dieser Maßnahme damals gab's gleich ganz viele Aspekte.","start":1251.6,"end":1255.36},{"text":"Zum einen war die Mittelübertragung auch über mehrere Jahre überhaupt gar kein Problem.","start":1255.36,"end":1258.9},{"text":"Dann hatten die Jobcenter, die es da ging, die ja ältere Beschäftigte in Arbeit bringen sollten, freie Auswahl der Mittel.","start":1259.52,"end":1266.995}],"start":1247.0449,"end":1266.995,"num_words":60.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Mhm.","start":1267.135,"end":1267.635},{"text":"Also konnten ihre das Geld so einsetzen, wie sie wollten in Fortbildung, in Subventionierung von Stellen, was auch immer.","start":1267.6951,"end":1274.0951},{"text":"Ja.","start":1274.0951,"end":1274.415},{"text":"Das ganze Instrumentarium.","start":1274.415,"end":1275.3151},{"text":"Konnten das dementsprechend auf ihre Leute, die sie betreuen und auf ihren jeweiligen Arbeitsmarkt, den man dann da dabei auch im Blick haben muss, konnten das entsprechend anpassen und sind dann so eher in eine Belohnungslogik reingekommen.","start":1276.0951,"end":1288.66}],"start":1267.135,"end":1288.66,"num_words":61.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also wenn sie 'n guten Job gemacht haben, dann ist das Geld zumindest weiter geflossen.","start":1288.72,"end":1292.48},{"text":"Ja.","start":1292.48,"end":1292.64},{"text":"Dann erst mal so.","start":1292.64,"end":1293.36}],"start":1288.72,"end":1293.36,"num_words":20.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Okay.","start":1293.36,"end":1293.6799},{"text":"Also klingt ja","start":1293.6799,"end":1294.64}],"start":1293.36,"end":1294.64,"num_words":4.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"super und offensichtlich ja auch nicht neu, bis zur","start":1294.64,"end":1294.8}],"start":1294.64,"end":1294.8,"num_words":9.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Nachahmung empfohlen wurde, aber dann nicht so viel nachgehahmung.","start":1294.8,"end":1294.96},{"text":"Ja.","start":1294.96,"end":1295.44},{"text":"Also so viel nachgeahmt offensichtlich, oder?","start":1295.44,"end":1300.655},{"text":"Wenn Du's vor 20 Jahren schon","start":1300.655,"end":1302.1951}],"start":1294.8,"end":1302.1951,"num_words":22.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"In 'nem Kenntnisstand ist das in der Form immer noch selten.","start":1302.975,"end":1307.0751},{"text":"Mhm.","start":1307.215,"end":1307.375}],"start":1302.975,"end":1307.375,"num_words":12.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Aber es gibt natürlich schon in der Verwaltung, also in den Kommunalverwaltungen und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele, und Landes- und Bundesverwaltungen sehr viele gute Beispiele für genau solches Handeln.","start":1307.375,"end":1315.74},{"text":"Also wir sind nicht die Ersten, die darüber sprechen und im Papier finden sich auch einige Beispiele dafür, wie genau in die Richtung gearbeitet wird.","start":1315.74,"end":1324.125},{"text":"Wir weisen eher darauf, dass es strukturell in die Breite getragen werden sollte und das eben anhand einiger Vorschläge.","start":1324.205,"end":1331.905}],"start":1307.375,"end":1331.905,"num_words":76.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ja, okay.","start":1332.125,"end":1332.945},{"text":"Genau, aber Du hast ja auch gerade gesagt, Allinke, also was man ja nicht vergessen darf, ist, dass diese Inputorientierung ist wichtig.","start":1333.325,"end":1337.405},{"text":"Wir sind in 'nem demokratischen System.","start":1337.405,"end":1337.885},{"text":"Wir wollen, dass wir wollen Rechtsstaatlichkeit und Rechtssicherheit natürlich weiterhin gewährleisten, ne.","start":1337.885,"end":1345.9199},{"text":"Also es gibt dann in diesem Freiwerden sozusagen gibt's ja auch Säulen, die man nicht einreisen möchte dann, ne.","start":1345.9199,"end":1351.94}],"start":1332.125,"end":1351.94,"num_words":61.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Genau das ist unbedingt so.","start":1352.1649,"end":1353.765},{"text":"Das muss uns nur nicht per se davon abbringen, trotzdem mal an paar Hebeln zu drehen und zum Beispiel Steuerung und das böse Wort ist immer Kontrolle, vielleicht bleibe ich bei Steuerung, ist ja schon auch möglich, indem ich andere Indikatoren für Erfolg entwickle.","start":1353.765,"end":1368.4199},{"text":"Und das tue ich ja zum Beispiel in dem Moment, indem ich mir genau angucke, was soll der Outcome 1 spezifischen Maßnahme sein, das wirklich in Indikatoren runterbreche und damit auch messbar mache.","start":1368.88,"end":1379.415},{"text":"Das geht im Kleinen, also mit Blick auf ganz spezifische kleinteilige Aufgaben, aber wünschenswert wär so was natürlich auch im Großen dann zum Beispiel eine ganze Verwaltungseinheit, eine ganze Behörde umfassend.","start":1379.495,"end":1389.5751},{"text":"Auch da kann man strategische Ziele outcomeorientiert für bestimmte Zeiträume festlegen und das dann runterbrechen und vorsichtig formuliert messbar machen, dann in die verschiedenen untergeordneten Einheiten.","start":1389.5751,"end":1400.6}],"start":1352.1649,"end":1400.6,"num_words":139.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Und auch hier ist Steuerung und vor allem auch nachvollziehbare Steuerung möglich.","start":1401.0599,"end":1406.04},{"text":"Was wir nicht wollen, ist plötzlich kein gar keine Inputsteuerung mehr.","start":1406.705,"end":1410.145},{"text":"Da geht's schon darum, Dinge, die schwer zu vereinen sind, zusammenzubringen.","start":1410.145,"end":1413.365},{"text":"Ja.","start":1414.385,"end":1414.885}],"start":1401.0599,"end":1414.885,"num_words":35.0,"speaker":2},{"sentences":[{"text":"Also neben dieser Schwierigkeit, dass man sich damit beobachtbar macht und dass man ihn auf und dafür möglichst gering halten soll, gibt es natürlich auch noch 'n anderen ganz wichtigen Punkt, die Verwaltung son bisschen in Richtung Wirkungsorientierung zu locken.","start":1414.945,"end":1426.4501},{"text":"Und das ist, man muss Fehler machen dürfen.","start":1426.67,"end":1429.4701},{"text":"Mhm.","start":1429.4701,"end":1429.79},{"text":"Und das ist ja etwas, was in der Verwaltung höchstgrad verpönt ist.","start":1429.79,"end":1432.755},{"text":"Erfolg wird gemessen, ne Vermeidung von Fehlern ist auch 1 meiner Lieblingssprüche zu dem Thema.","start":1433.235,"end":1437.495}],"start":1414.945,"end":1437.495,"num_words":76.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Aber das bedeutet dann natürlich, wenn man sich beobachtbar macht, wenn man sich an ganz konkreten Zielen misst, wenn man sich an Wirkungsindikatoren misst, dann gehört es ganz normal dazu, dass man daran auch scheitern kann.","start":1438.035,"end":1449.16},{"text":"Mhm.","start":1449.16,"end":1449.66},{"text":"Und der Punkt ist ja nicht, also wir wollen natürlich nicht scheitern, das ist auch klar, aber das muss vollkommen legitim sein und der Punkt ist dann, daraus wieder zu lernen und daraus die nächste Maßnahme dann vielleicht 'n bisschen anders zu strecken, dann in so einen Mechanismus von Lernen der Verwaltung zu kommen, Mhm.","start":1449.96,"end":1465.1606},{"text":"Der dann auch wieder auf ganz vielen Ebenen kleine Hebelchen braucht, so zum Beispiel auch Aufstiegschancen, die damit verbunden sein müssen innerhalb der Verwaltung.","start":1465.3893,"end":1477.0599},{"text":"Also wenn Aufstiegschancen nach diesem Prinzip Fehlervermeidung vergeben werden, verteilt werden, dann hat das wieder 'n negativen Auswirkungen darauf, sich messbar machen lassen zu wollen und darauf dann möglicherweise Ziele nicht zu erreichen.","start":1477.2799,"end":1492.2151}],"start":1438.035,"end":1492.2151,"num_words":149.0,"speaker":1},{"sentences":[{"text":"Aber heißt das, dass man da auch einfach Sachen zurückfahren muss wie so 6 Augen Prinzip, Berichtspflichten und so was?","start":1492.2151,"end":1498.615},{"text":"Also muss man da dann auch mit Sachen aufhören oder muss man einfach nur die Sachen, die man misst und kontrolliert, anders bewerten?","start":1498.615,"end":1505.6901}],"start":1492.2151,"end":1505.6901,"num_words":43.0,"speaker":0},{"sentences":[{"text":"Ich glaube, es wär 'n Gedanke wert, die Punkte, an denen man dann kontrolliert, etwas anders zu 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