{"metadata": {"transaction_key": "deprecated", "request_id": "01a05202-271a-7860-b81f-37c8dfd263f8", "sha256": "eb67ddf59e693e058ebcf7bb2a926c9cd4fbc6acf72b1d6fe116e3760d1eef20", "created": "2026-08-30T09:31:10.518Z", "duration": 3302.7395, "channels": 1, "models": ["4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766"], "warnings": null, "model_info": {"4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766": {"name": "2-general-nova", "version": "2024-01-12.30173", "arch": "nova-2"}}, "summary_info": null}, "results": {"channels": [{"search": null, "alternatives": [{"transcript": "Benvenuti su un altro episodio del podcast Democragrass Innovators. Diamo il benvenuto a Massimo Bugani che \u00e8 stato tra I fondatori della piattaforma russo. Va beh, innanzitutto volevo ringraziarti per il tuo tempo. Grazie a voi. Grazie a voi. Ci mancherebbe. Diciamo diverse domande riguardo a questa diciamo quello che ormai di quanti anni fa si parla di La piattaforma Rousseau 1\u00ba mi dicevi che diciamo la tua parte non era quella legata al, come dire, al funzionamento tecnico, ma pi\u00f9 una parte non so pi\u00f9 politica, non so come descriveressi. E nella dare suggerimenti e indicazione per quella che poteva essere l'utilit\u00e0 politica della piattaforma, paesi esteri o da comuni dove magari non c'erano membri dei 5 Stelle oppure condivisione di atti prodotti dai 5 Stelle per semplificare il lavoro di altri che potevano copiare un lavoro gi\u00e0 fatto e declinarlo solo per il proprio comune le call to action quindi come invitare le persone a fare attivit\u00e0, a organizzarsi sul territorio poi invece c'era la parte di votazioni su tematiche, la parte di proposte di legge e invece quella delle votazioni, degli iscritti, quella non competeva a me, per\u00f2 era parte fondamentale perch\u00e9 ovviamente su quella piattaforma si concentrava l'attivit\u00e0 politica del Movimento 5 Stelle e comunque veniva ingaggiata in tutti I momenti pi\u00f9 importanti. Quindi c'era una vita della piattaforma diciamo a giri costanti durante tutto l'anno che forniva comunque supporto politico a una forza politica che non aveva sedi, non aveva segretari di partito, non aveva sponsor, non aveva circoli e quindi dava quel supporto l\u00ec in ogni momento. In pi\u00f9 c'erano I momenti quelli che diventavano pi\u00f9 importanti a livello mediatico hanno quelli delle scelte, delle votazioni su varie tematiche. E volevo che siamo appunto a distanza cose di alcuni anni, 2\u00ba te cosa, diciamo le 2 domande, cosa funzionato e cosa non funzionato? Allora io ho rammarico di non aver visto la piattaforma in funzione con Gianroberto Casaleggio in vita, perch\u00e9 l'autorevolezza della persona che aveva ideato fondamentalmente il movimento 5 stelle e la sua modalit\u00e0 di azione che non poteva trascendere dalla partecipazione diretta dei cittadini era fondamentale per garantire una linea, una visione e un'alta percentuale di condivisione all'interno del movimento delle scelte che venivano prese. Cio\u00e8 era una persona talmente autorevole, talmente riconosciuta, talmente colta che aveva dal 2005 quando nascono I meetup fino arrivare al 2016 quando purtroppo ci lasciato aveva avuto un ruolo fondamentale, aveva costruito un percorso che si basava molto sulla sua credibilit\u00e0 e la sua forza nei confronti degli iscritti, degli eletti, la sua presenza. Quindi quando mi dici cosa non funzionato Rousseau va in funzione, diventa di supporto per una forza che poi 2 anni dopo va al governo in un momento in cui all'interno del Movimento 5 Stelle c'erano gi\u00e0 varie sommosse, e discussioni tensioni su molte tematiche e un perimetro culturale politico di scelte di visioni non ben definito quindi in questo contesto si finisce dentro anche Rousseau per cui a molti anche parlamentari non piaceva avere Rousseau, vivevano come una specie di controllo, non piaceva il doverlo finanziare perch\u00e9 comunque non prendendo finanziamenti pubblici, non avendo sponsor privati, anche la piattaforma viveva sulle spalle delle donazioni che facevano gli eletti un po' spontaneamente, un po' spontaneamente e che facevano gli iscritti. Quindi nel momento in cui, ma anche la figura di Gianroberto, queste fibrillazioni interne del movimento portavano anche ad avere delle discussioni su Rousseau date semplicemente dal fatto di chi scelto che deve essere il tal senatore a fare il corso di e-learning su Rousseau per un particolare atto, per spiegare come funzionano I consigli comunali o regionali e quindi se me, io non pago, io non lo finanzio. Quindi questo \u00e8 stato un po' 2\u00ba me la fragilit\u00e0 maggiore, nel senso che non abbiamo avuto il sostegno interno che pensavamo di avere, perch\u00e9 per anni la rete, la partecipazione diretta dei cittadini, le proposte dei cittadini erano state il fulcro. Invece, soprattutto una volta arrivati al governo questa cosa veniva vista da molti con fastidio e non c'era pi\u00f9 una voce autorevole che dicesse questa \u00e8 la strada del movimento e se si sposano I principi del movimento questa \u00e8 una delle prime cose da accettare. Invece la cosa che funzionato 2\u00ba me tantissimo \u00e8 che \u00e8 stata il 1\u00ba grande esperimento internazionale in cui I cittadini, gli iscritti di una forza politica, hanno veramente inciso su scelte fondamentali della forza politica, come decidere se partecipare o meno all'ingresso in alcuni governi che si sono creati. Quelli sono stati I voti pi\u00f9 eclatanti, ma tutte le altre votazioni comunque erano sempre per prendere decisioni fondamentali per il movimento che non le prendeva chiudendosi in una stanza con il segretario di partito, con 4 come si dice sempre il Cerchio Magico, 4 componenti del cerchio magico del segretario di partito che decidono, avendo sentito un po' di referenti territoriali, quale strada prendere. No, l\u00ec si discuteva, si discuteva fisicamente in presenza e in rete sulla piattaforma e poi si votava e si facevano esprimere gli iscritti. Qualcosa a mio avviso di straordinario e che doveva essere assolutamente caldeggiato e sponsorizzato e sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzato. I risultati erano evidenti perch\u00e9 l'iscritto si sentiva veramente responsabilizzato, si sentiva veramente ingaggiato. Io mi ricordo ancora I primi che fecero proposte di legge libere che poi mettemmo al voto. Ricordo la 1\u00ba volta, mi sembrano 98 proposte di legge che venivano da liberi cittadini, e mi ricordo il 1\u00ba che poi incontr\u00f2 I parlamentari, la camera al senato e che vide depositato un disegno di legge, di proposta che poi venne votato dal Parlamento, da Camera e Senato, nelle 2 Camere e quasi non ci poteva credere. E il percorso era stato di scegliete fra queste 98 proposte quale devono avere la priorit\u00e0, quale 2\u00ba voi \u00e8 pi\u00f9 importante, ne rimasero 5, 5 quella che deve per 1\u00ba, venne scelta quella per 1\u00ba e per me quei momenti l\u00ec erano esaltanti. Era veramente il coronamento di un sogno mio, ma anche mi sentivo di tenere in vita il pensiero di Gianroberto Casaleggio e di dimostrare che si poteva fare e che si poteva avere una forza politica davvero che faceva le liste, I candidati, che prendeva scelte politiche facendo votare gli iscritti. Cosa assolutamente rivoluzionaria Che poi erano tanti, nel senso appunto mi ricordo che ci saranno magari critiche perch\u00e9 si diceva che erano pochi magari rispetto a tutto l'elettorato non so dei 5 Stelle per\u00f2 comunque erano un numero considerevole considerando cio\u00e8 che le piattaforme di partecipazione civica spesso si ritrovano ad avere pochi Assolutamente! No, io mi ricordo che venivano mediamente anche davanti a Pensate, ci sono 170000 iscritti e su questa votazione hanno votato solo 54000. Hanno votato quelli che conoscevano il tema e volevano votare e volevano incidere su quel tema specifico. Oppure le critiche ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per votare quando per primi facevamo fare una votazione senza dover fare code dove votavano 54000 persone, molte provavano appena si apriva simultaneamente, le piattaforme un po' singlefavano, ma io dicevo tutti pensate ai siti che vendono biglietti per I concerti che vanno in blocco quando devono vendere 50000 biglietti che sono 50000 biglietti uguali mentre noi avevamo le divisioni territoriali la scelta quindi erano votazioni che moltiplicavano tantissimo la complessit\u00e0 della votazione perch\u00e9 magari dovevi votare per le regionali, aprivi il voto quel giorno l\u00ec, erano su sei-sette regioni, ma dove c'erano le persone residenti nei vari comuni che dovevano entrare, dovevano poter votare solo per quella sezione, per quella circoscrizione, per l'area di residenza che si potevano candidare solo nella loro area. Quindi un livello di complessit\u00e0 informatica non sono informatico ma lo capisce chiunque che era enorme eppure anche I siti di vendita di biglietti per la partita per il concerto si bloccano quando c'\u00e8 grande afflusso ma 6 comodamente seduto in ufficio sul divano e ritenterai successivamente. Invece veniva presa questa come pensate come stanno manipolando? Ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per riuscire a votare e sinceramente mi facevano il suo Rimet, cio\u00e8 capire che un po' c'era malafede, ma molto c'era ingenuit\u00e0, ignoranza essendo I primi, I primi che utilizzavano questi mezzi che li utilizzavano, capimmo che anche in buona fede c'erano molte persone attente anche, insomma, proprio addetti ai lavori della politica del giornalismo che non si capivano niente e che criticavano senza capire cosa stesse succedendo. Certo! Stavo pensando appunto Il 5 Sales Corotau \u00e8 stato come dicevo un 1\u00ba grande esperimento anche proprio internazionale. Mi chiedo appunto, come dire, ai giorni nostri o che ne so nei prossimi anni se qualcuno ripetesse questo esperimento. Ci ho visto anche in giro ci sono stati, a volte vengono chiamati high Party, ci sono state in Danimarca, cio\u00e8 quello in Giappone, in Brasile anche, abbiamo fatto dei tentativi in qualche modo, cio\u00e8 molto diversi magari da quel 5 stelle russo, per\u00f2 allo stesso tempo simili perch\u00e9 si appoggiavano magari una piattaforma di partecipazione. Quindi mi stavo chiedendo appunto adesso magari I tempi possano essere anche un po' pi\u00f9 maturi. 2\u00ba me allora dal punto di vista tecnico, tecnologico e di cultura generale sono molto pi\u00f9 maturi. Dal punto di vista di volont\u00e0 politica non lo so, la dico cos\u00ec nel senso che per me che adesso ad esempio faccio parte del Partito Democratico sarebbe fondamentale per un partito cos\u00ec strutturato organizzato come il Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto internamente, spero 1\u00ba o poi di riuscire a sfondare, avere una piattaforma con un utilizzo del genere. E con l'esperienza che ho fatto in questi vent'anni ormai, 21 anni, mi rendo conto che probabilmente al Movimento 5 stelle di allora mancava una rete territoriale strutturata e quindi dei pesi, dei contrappesi e come posso dire una forza territoriale solida che sarebbe stata molto importante per supportare la piattaforma. Viceversa \u00e8 un partito strutturato con circoli, sezioni, segretari, percorsi democratici per selezione del Presidente di circolo del Segretario di quartiere, del Segretario Cittadino, del Segretario provinciale, del Segretario Regionale a mio avviso malca tantissimo una piattaforma bisognerebbe averle 2 cose io penso che siano le 2 cose insieme l'obiettivo di una buona politica del 2030 diciamo perch\u00e9 tu hai bisogno di radicamento, hai bisogno di contatto fisico costante, hai bisogno di persone di fiducia testate che abbiano dimostrato di saper reggere le pressioni, le tensioni, di saper vivere la complessit\u00e0 della politica, cosa che il movimento non aveva perch\u00e9 quasi tutti non avevano alcuna esperienza politica, la stragrande maggioranza delle persone che entravano, e quindi era molto difficile costruire queste reti al di l\u00e0 di incontri che si facevano sui territori ma diciamo con uno spirito un po' pi\u00f9 da brainstorming generale pi\u00f9 che da partito organizzato e invece vedere partiti strutturati a mio avviso avrebbero bisogno di momenti in cui la cittadinanza si sente cos\u00ec ingaggiata, parte di una comunit\u00e0 ascoltata e ho scelto io, ho contribuito a sceglierli io. Quindi non sono stati decisi all'interno di una stanza con davvero la segreteria e un sindaco. Credo che si possa e si debba tendere l\u00ec per riconquistare anche un po' di astensionismo, di riportare al voto persone che oggi non votano pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 si sentono utili solo quando il partito bisogno e poi completamente inascoltabile. Infatti, adesso pensando a questa cosa legata al territorio, diverse volte mi sono chiesto cio\u00e8 appunto I cambiamenti tecnologici a cui stiamo assistendo possono anche far presagire che magari il sistema sociale politico possa avere dei cambiamenti, non so, nel futuro. E mi sono chiesto diverse volte saranno, come dire, I partiti gi\u00e0 esistenti che si adatteranno appunto dotandosi di piattaforme o saranno partiti nuovi come appunto poteva essere 5 Stelle ormai quasi 15 anni fa. C'\u00e8 appunto questa cosa tra il nuovo che arriva un po' che rompe oppure si non ti so dire io spero che partiti importanti radicati strutturati con grande storia con perimetri culturali abbastanza definiti scelgano scientemente di intraprendere anche un percorso di piattaforme a supporto. Non credo pi\u00f9 in esperimenti nuovi perch\u00e9 ho fatto vent'anni di esperienza e la politica \u00e8 complessa. La politica \u00e8 molto complessa, raccontarla come una cosa semplice dove Infatti anche quando veniva detto: ma far votare cos\u00ec su Rousseau, sulle piattaforme, votano persone che non sanno nulla di ci\u00f2 che votano, non faceva bestia a lire, perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 attraverso la piattaforma tu davi quelle informazioni che consentivano a persone di votare delle scelte che il partito andava a fare, quindi gli dai delle informazioni e poi loro andavano a votare. Cosa che invece nei partiti che non usano piattaforme, direi in tutti I partiti italiani di oggi compreso il Movimento 5 Stelle, fondamentalmente chiedi al tuo iscritto di votare quando ci sono le elezioni ufficiali politiche amministrative, ma non gli chiedi mai un altro tipo di partecipazione, non \u00e8 mai ingaggiato in altri momenti, non \u00e8 mai ascoltato e quindi a mio avviso laddove tu hai una sutura con circoli che fanno quel lavoro di informazione che noi facevamo solo con la piattaforma, o comunque soprattutto con la piattaforma molto radicato, dargli la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimersi che \u00e8 un voto ancora pi\u00f9 consapevole 2\u00ba me, ancora pi\u00f9 importante. Ma non accettavo la la derisione sul voto anche allora perch\u00e9 dicevo vorrei vedere nelle altre forze politiche chi chi non avrebbe voglia di esprimersi, di poter udire la propria su certe scelte, su non so la buona scuola di Renzi ad esempio, mi viene in mente adesso, o altri provvedimenti che furono molto impattanti e su cui partiti decisero senza ascoltare minimamente la propria base. Quindi s\u00ec, diteci che magari sta voltando un po' di gente inconsapevole, ma non diteci che non sarebbe bello invece ascoltare anche I vostri scritti sulle decisioni che prendete. Certo, infatti riflettevo su in un'altra intervista con Thiago Pessoto. Lui appunto parlava dei budget diciamo, cio\u00e8 nel partecipativo budget e diceva che ci sono tantissime, come dire, cose positive, ad esempio non so dove vengono effettuate, cio\u00e8 dove le persone possono effettivamente decidere dove vengono spesi I soldi, le persone si sentono pi\u00f9 partecipi allo stesso tempo. Diceva anche cose non di riduzione della mortalit\u00e0 infantile, cose come dire molto anche importanti. Poi dicevo non so I politici che attuano politiche di questo genere hanno pi\u00f9 probabilit\u00e0 di essere rielette perch\u00e9 appunto viene apprezzato dai cittadini. Allo stesso tempo per\u00f2 non \u00e8 una pratica cos\u00ec diffusa. Cio\u00e8, appunto penso appunto a questo come le pratiche di partecipazione diciamo siano indubbiamente benefiche Ma nonostante il destino dialisi. Esattamente. La mia lettura \u00e8 che vertici dei partiti e ho visto come Conte deciso di liberarsi di Rousseau e l' fatto perch\u00e9 fondamentalmente sentiva intaccata la sua autonomia decisionale. Ma per me \u00e8 una perdita, \u00e8 un segno di debolezza. Casaleggio era riconosciuto da tutti come il capo fra virgolette del movimento, come la mente, il visionario, il filosofo del movimento e quindi il punto di riferimento del movimento. Alcuni criticavano questa cosa ma nessuno la metteva in dubbio, eppure faceva esprimere continuamente gli iscritti. Delle volte anche andando in minoranza, ma nel momento in cui tu hai una forza politica che fa un buon lavoro di informazione che spiega le scelte che vorrebbe andare ad intraprendere, o fa scivoloni non capendo che le persone sono troppo lontane da quella scelta, oppure trova il proprio popolo, la propria comunit\u00e0 agganciata su quell'obiettivo e la trova agganciata e partecipa, quindi ingaggiata, quindi ancora pi\u00f9 pi\u00f9 vogliosa di poi andare a raccontare in famiglia con gli amici sul lavoro e di spiegare perch\u00e9 quella scelta \u00e8 stata presa, perch\u00e9 ho partecipato. Io lo vedo come un esperimento straordinario che lo si \u00e8 evoluto accantonare a livello di Movimento 5 Stelle, ma a livello generale dei prelievi nazionali per voler comandare insomma per voler avere pi\u00f9 mani libere all'interno del partito invece la mia esperienza diretta \u00e8 che pi\u00f9 tu coinvolgi pi\u00f9 fai sentire le persone parte di qualcosa veramente per dire anche semplicemente un video al semplice cittadino, non consigliere, non senatore, non ministro, che fa un video che \u00e8 una denuncia, che \u00e8 una provocazione, che \u00e8 un suggerimento, che \u00e8 un'inchiesta, che va 1\u00ba sul blog di Grillo, poi sulla piattaforma e-learning o sharing, quindi viene lanciata sulla piattaforma. Come guardate cosa fatto questo signor Mario Rossi e questa signora Giorgia Bianchi e ve la consigliamo a tutti? Quella persona l\u00ec dice: Ma io sono finito l\u00ec veramente? Senza dover fare un percorso di leccapiedi, senza dover scalare il partito da consigliere di quartiere, da saletta Veramente mi stanno dando questa importanza? Allora, 1\u00ba di tutto mi impegno ancora di pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 voglio essere pi\u00f9 bravo la prossima volta che propongo qualcosa ma poi creo negli altri una voglia di emulazione di fare la stessa cosa di proporre qualcosa di efficace di essere visibile, di essere per essere visibile, per essere ascoltata. Questo era un processo veramente che come una pallina di neve diventava una valanga e portava una marea di persone a sentirsi rappresentate ingaggiate dal Movimento 5 Stelle. Sostenuto per anni ho sostenuto per anni fino a quando sono uscito che, soprattutto poi quando \u00e8 cresciuta molto la destra in Italia, che bisognasse definire un perimetro culturale di riferimento con pi\u00f9 nettezza per non essere in balia di tensioni interne troppo forti con persone che al tuo interno andavano dall'estrema destra all'instrino sinistra. Quindi a parte dire reddito di cittadinanza anticorruzione dove pi\u00f9 o meno teneva insieme tutti, sulle altre tematiche per le troppe divisioni e quindi per me stringere probabilmente asciugare il bacino elettorale, ma avere un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 definito, ci avrebbe consentito anche di essere pi\u00f9 efficaci con la piattaforma, perch\u00e9 avresti avuto un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 omogeneo e meno tensioni e meno scossoni e per me la piattaforma sarebbe stata ancora pi\u00f9 utile. Ricettavo appunto su questa tensione appunto da una parte chi magari il potere politico, appunto magari se si usano delle piattaforme per la partecipazione in parte uno sta anche cedendo il potere di alcune scelte alla cittadinanza. Mi chiedo come risolvere questa tensione, se sia possibile, se effettivamente magari c'\u00e8 semplicemente bisogno, come dire, un cambio generazionale. Penso a quello che dicevi 1\u00ba, non so che magari, cio\u00e8 che poi, come dire, il risultato anche nel corso delle altre puntate del podcast che non sempre, come dire, la classe politica \u00e8 aggiornata sui diversi sistemi legati alla partecipazione, quindi magari non riescono anche proprio ad immaginarsi una soluzione diversa da quella attuale. Vero, vero? 2\u00ba me, perch\u00e9 l'ho sentita cambiare dentro di me questa cosa che ti sto per dire \u00e8 anche importante fare dei passaggi intermedi. Mi spiego: la critica del Movimento 5 Stelle \u00e8 una persona diventata senatore con 100 click senza alcuna esperienza aveva creato una rete da amici, perch\u00e9 aveva fatto iscrivere I parenti. Critica corretta perch\u00e9 in alcuni casi effettivamente \u00e8 successo cos\u00ec. Quindi avevi davanti, cio\u00e8 avevi uno accanto all'altro una persona stra appassionata di politica, sempre molto attiva, presente in tutti gli incontri fisici, presente negli incontri online, grande studioso, qualit\u00e0 dialettiche eccellenti, che veniva scelto perch\u00e9 la piattaforma lo faceva emergere quindi veniva votato perch\u00e9 di grande livello accanto magari la persona che non aveva nessuna particolare dote, nessun particolare preso, magari era disoccupato e aveva fatto iscrivere 100 amici per farsi votare. E allora, da quell'esperienza l\u00ec, 2\u00ba me, un partito strutturato potrebbe dire bene I segretari devono fare un listino di 11 persone per la lista di Bologna per le lezioni al Parlamento La circoscrizione di Bologna sono 11? Non so, il listino regionale sono 11? Bene, la segreteria di partito si riunisce e seleziona fra persone non improvvisate, non con l'iscrizione di 100 amici ma conosciute sul territorio, seleziona 50 persone che vengono messe in votazione. Infatti con Gianroberto parlava molto di questa cosa 1\u00ba che se ne andasse. Vengono poi queste 50 persone messe al voto della rete che seleziona le 11 che vanno nel listino, che poi vengono votate dal voto con preferenza di chi deve votare il Consiglio Regionale. E cos\u00ec anche per certe proposte politiche. Perch\u00e9 accetti le proposte da qualcuno che di quella materia non \u00e8 al corrente quanto l'ingegnere che si occupa di quel tema? Bene, allora scelgo 10 ingegneri, 3 filosofi, 2 intellettuali che sono occupati di quel tema palesemente o oggettivamente se ne sono occupati con punti di vista diversi e metto in votazione le idee che hanno proposto queste 10 persone, 15 persone e la comunit\u00e0, gli iscritti scelgono quale di quelle 15 proposte \u00e8 quella pi\u00f9 efficace o che la comunit\u00e0 di quella forza politica vuole portare avanti. 2\u00ba me \u00e8 nei passaggi intermedi che si poteva trovare molta pi\u00f9 forza, molta pi\u00f9 solidit\u00e0. Quindi l'esperimento \u00e8 stato straordinario, ma effettivamente era il 1\u00ba e aveva delle fragilit\u00e0. Ma resta a mio avviso un esperimento incredibile, incredibile di cui sono straorgoglioso di averne fatto parte e mi dispiace che non si sia lavorato, che a un certo punto non si sia pi\u00f9 voluto ragionare su come farlo andare avanti e migliorarlo ecco perch\u00e9 c'erano tutte le possibilit\u00e0 di farlo Certo. Ma poi tantissimo. Lo facevo gi\u00e0 un po' all'inizio della nostra chiacchierata. Per me per essere efficaci non pu\u00f2 esistere una piattaforma senza partito strutturato e radicato e non pu\u00f2 pi\u00f9 andare avanti un partito strutturato e radicato senza l'aiuto di una piattaforma. Perch\u00e9 per me alla fine finisce per come sono oggi partiti, tutti I partiti finiscono per parlare fondamentalmente solo alle stesse persone e non fan sentire parte di una comunit\u00e0 I loro iscritti. Gi\u00e0 diventa una dinamica per cui molto spesso mi squilvo il partecipo perch\u00e9 spero di essere letto. Invece la forza straordinaria e positiva \u00e8 quella di partecipo perch\u00e9 mi sento pi\u00f9 forte, mi sento nel giusto, mi sento bene, mi sento meno solo facendo parte di questa comunit\u00e0 e sono fiero di farne parte. Ma non mi interessa essere letto da nessuna parte o magari s\u00ec, ma lo scoprir\u00f2 cammini facendo, non \u00e8 il mio obiettivo. Invece rischi un po' che nei circoli delle forze politiche e nei vari incontri ci siano persone con un chiaro obiettivo anche di carriera personale. Stavo pensando appunto all'importanza di sperimentare proprio perch\u00e9 appunto c'\u00e8 questo cambio tecnologico che \u00e8 velocissimo. Appunto anche la persona che pi\u00f9 si aggiorna fa fatica a a stare al passo con tutte le novit\u00e0 e penso che poi in qualche modo sia anche un cambio che sia appunto se si sta al passo con questi da una parte aggiornamenti tecnologici e quindi comprendere anche come utilizzarli appunto per far partecipare le persone, come dire, pu\u00f2 essere anche una sorta di quasi ricambio di paradigma. Adesso appunto ci sono o I 2 partiti o a volte I 3 partiti come sistema, mentre l\u00ec magari si potrebbe parlare pi\u00f9 di magari o delle singole questioni o appunto come s\u00ec, cio\u00e8 io faccio un programma, no? Io partito faccio un programma che sia per le amministrative in comune, regionali o per le elezioni politiche nazionali faccio un programma, faccio la campagna elettorale quei punti, prendo il voto. Bene, nella vita mondiale, europea, nazionale, regionale, comunale, nella realt\u00e0, nella concretezza della quotidianit\u00e0, ci sono 1000 eventi che esulano da quello che era il tuo programma e chiunque sia amministratore o consigliere parlamentare di posizione, deve prendere delle decisioni su cose che non erano nel suo programma o che magari nel suo programma, ma delle contingenze impreviste, imprevedibili, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, una pandemia possono mettere in discussione. Perch\u00e9 a quel punto non chiedo alla mia comunit\u00e0 che cosa pensa. Per me era l\u00ec lo spirito rivoluzionario ed \u00e8 tuttora l\u00ec perch\u00e9 il programma non basta. Io sento sempre pi\u00f9 spesso: abbiamo fatto questa cosa cos\u00ec perch\u00e9 era nel nostro programma. Ma nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una pandemia, nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una guerra, che ci sarebbero stati dei dazi. Quindi siccome avviene il programma, ma oggi ci sono stati dei dazi e c'\u00e8 una guerra o c'\u00e8 una pandemia o c'\u00e8 stata l'alluvione, quindi il tuo bilancio regionale, il tuo bilancio comunale, il tuo bilancio nazionale \u00e8 cambiato. La pensi allo stesso modo? \u00c8 pi\u00f9 importante un'altra cosa? Cosa pensano I cittadini? Cosa pensi I cittadini della tua forza politica? Che tu non stai pi\u00f9 ascoltando e gli chiedi qualcosa di fideistico? Di vabb\u00e8 l'ho eletto e mi fido di lui, ma non 6 pi\u00f9 se I tuoi elettori, I tuoi iscritti ti stanno seguendo in quella scelta che stai prendendo in quel momento l\u00ec, perch\u00e9 quella non era nel programma o comunque non era nel programma con gli imprevisti che si sono verificati e che I cittadini stanno subendo. E quindi io sogno un mondo in cui si torna a fare questo lavoro perch\u00e9 attenzione ecco anche qui con I 20 anni fa di esperienza non voglio che questo mio ragionamento vada contro I corpi intermedi. Io con l'esperienza che ho fatto non sono pi\u00f9 come ero 20 anni fa per sono solo portavoce, non servono I partiti, non servono I sindacati, non servono le sensazioni, non servono corti intermedi, non lo dico pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 ho conosciuto la complessit\u00e0, la fatica e quindi servono persone che studino, che siano rette, che si dimostrino oneste, credibili anche davanti a un errore che ci mettano la faccia e che facciano questo sacrificio che \u00e8 complessissimo, tutto fuorch\u00e9 facile qualunque cittadino pu\u00f2 far politica e io non lo penso pi\u00f9. Qualunque cittadino appassionato e che voglia studiare, di impegnarsi, di soffrire, di vivere tensioni, di capire le proprie lacune, di cercare di colmarle pu\u00f2 farla, non qualsiasi cittadino pu\u00f2 farlo. Per\u00f2 in questo percorso qui le persone che sono dentro hanno il dovere di cercare di informare le persone che sono fuori e di consultarle man mano che si prendono decisioni perch\u00e9 il cittadino pu\u00f2 magari non essere esperto di una legge delle ricadute specifiche di quella legge ma sa che gli hanno tolto 100 euro in busta per qualche motivo o che non avr\u00e0 un servizio ospedaliero e pubblico ma che lo dovr\u00e0 pagare perch\u00e9 qualcosa \u00e8 cambiato e vorrebbe poter dire che non gli va bene che gli stai complicando l'esistenza mentre magari stai finanziando una sanit\u00e0 privata che richiede assicurazioni. Adesso ecco questo \u00e8 uno dei tanti esempi che potrei fare. No certo! Stavo pensando a questa cosa della vabb\u00e8 s\u00ec, sempre la partecipazione, come dire, \u00e8 il punto. Che quando uno magari parte, cio\u00e8 a volte \u00e8 come dire, \u00e8 come se ci fosse una sorta di sentimento di impotenza diffuso, cio\u00e8 del tipo vabb\u00e8 a parte che ne so non vuotare, se voto non voto tanto che differenza fa? Va bene pure ma proprio a volte anche che ne so ci sono delle cose che magari uno vede un problema nel quartiere o un altro che uno potrebbe mandare non so una mail all'assessore o segnalarlo una certa associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio, associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio non so se ci sia appunto non lo faccio perch\u00e9 tanto non cambia niente, oppure perch\u00e9 magari uno non sa nemmeno di poterlo fare. Adesso magari anche cos\u00ec. E allora appunto rifletter\u00f2 su come magari anche piattaforme di partecipazione possano in qualche modo far sentire che I cittadini hanno un potere, che pu\u00f2 essere anche semplicemente mandare una mail o segnalare una cosa. \u00c8 assolutamente cos\u00ec. I cittadini hanno molto che non si uniscono per farlo valere e se nel dopoguerra e fino agli anni 80 si univano dalle universit\u00e0 alle fabbriche, ai circoli di partito, ai sindacati per incidere, da un certo punto in poi questa cosa si \u00e8 indebolita, si \u00e8 annacquata e perso valore e perso forza. Quindi 2\u00ba me gli strumenti informatici servirebbero proprio invece per ridare questa forza qua e riportare anche personal voti. Io credo che quel momento in cui il Movimento prende 11000000 di voti, li prende s\u00ec per l'onda di popolo di quel periodo l\u00ec che forse avrebbero intercettato anni dopo le sardine, per dire, in Italia c'era il momento favorevole e quindi non \u00e8 stato solo merito nostro di Grillo Casaleggio, di tutti noi eravamo anche al posto giusto al momento giusto, c'\u00e8 una componente di caso e di fortuna che ci giocato a favore, per quanto abbiamo fatto in molti sacrifici e ci abbiamo messo grande impegno. Per\u00f2 a mio avviso far fallire quell'utilizzo della re smettere di usare le piattaforme da parte di quella forza politica l\u00ec che aveva portato 11000000 di persone al voto che forse non avrebbero votato gi\u00e0 allora \u00e8 un duro colpo per chi stava facendo da anni ragionamenti su basta non voto pi\u00f9 e basta non vengo pi\u00f9 ascoltato e basta mi chiamano solo quando devo andare alla cena di Fratelli d'Italia o alla festa dell'Unit\u00e0 del PD. Era molto importante a mio avviso e spero che qualcuno degli esperimenti, delle piccole prove anche interne su piccole scelte e valuti le ricadute. Ecco internamente al partito pungolo molto su questo per dire anche nei nei circoli qui di Bologna stiamo facendo su mia spinta dei questionari. Facciamo compilare di questionari cittadini su varie tematiche per avere il sentiment davanti a scelte dell'amministrazione, davanti a scelte impattanti sulla cittadinanza che ti danno un report di questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, questo ci piace molto, questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, ma ci crediamo molto \u00e8 il caso ad esempio dei cantieri del tram che sono adesso a Bologna e tu li ascolti e ti danno un feedback su come ti stai muovendo Perch\u00e9 poi magari ti votano lo stesso anche se hanno mal di pancia, ma se ti votano invece con gioia il lavoro che fanno anche di divulgazione di quello che stai facendo \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 positivo. Quindi io credo che si debba assolutamente ritentare. Adesso le destre stanno utilizzando molto I sistemi informatici alla rete per fare un controllo dei social e delle politiche dei messaggi e quindi \u00e8 tutto il contrario: si sta utilizzando la rete in maniera, come posso dire, oppressiva e oscurante Quindi facendo un lavoro strutturato, costoso per schiacciare e per convincere di andare in una direzione. Invece la rete deve essere a mio avviso qualcuno deve utilizzarla per aprire. Potrei fare il raffronto con le radio libere. Nasco con le radio libere negli anni 70 ed \u00e8 la musica, il momento di pi\u00f9 grande espansione di musica dal 'sessantacinque agli anni 'ottanta primi anni 'novanta di musica libera, di voci libere che divulgano informazioni e conoscenze, fanno arrivare cose nuove che piacciono. Poi vengono studiate le radio libere entrano gli sponsor, entra la cappa, entra la multinazionale, entra l'oppressione e la radio libera diventa invece una radio che d\u00e0 messaggi di mercato costruiti e opprimenti o comunque che portano in una direzione gli investimenti sia musicali, ma anche poi di acquisti di materiali, beni primari dati dalle pubblicit\u00e0 e dagli investimenti dei colossi e quindi la radio libera fallisce. In questo momento stiamo rischiando invece di perderla, di averla in mano a il NASCO, ai partiti organizzati che la usano per opprimere. Ti faccio un'ultima domanda anche se 1\u00ba in parte hai risposto: se hai qualche, come dire, ci sono persone che magari stanno facendo prototipi, stanno sviluppando tool appunto per la partecipazione, se stanno impegnando su questo, se \u00e8 un piccolo messaggio per loro. No tantissimi tantissimi noi adesso veniamo anche proprio nei Emilia Romagna, abbiamo fatto la giornata della partecipazione gremita come non mai, anche perch\u00e9 insomma siamo qui in diversi nella regione Emilia-Romagna che ci crediamo e spingiamo molto questo tema. Mio suggerimento \u00e8 che si uniscano, che uniscano I flussi, che uniscano gli sforzi perch\u00e9 il messaggio deve arrivare a chi \u00e8 in posizione di potere, di comando, sia a livello governativo che E quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 parte e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 partecipazione. Noi abbiamo bisogno di loro, abbiamo bisogno di loro e abbiamo bisogno \u00e8 chiaro che ogni azienda, ogni associazione, ogni startup cerca di dire il mio prodotto \u00e8 migliore di tutti gli altri prendete il mio comprate il mio e gli altri fan schifo. In questo non si aiutano tanto, per\u00f2 lo capisco, \u00e8 la legge del mercato e della sopravvivenza. Per\u00f2 a mio avviso abbiamo bisogno di miei momenti in cui invece si \u00e8 tutti insieme, come \u00e8 stato qui della giornata della partecipazione, ma quello \u00e8 un giorno, dove siete tutti insieme per dire ai politici. O capite che dovete abbassare la cresta e aprire proprio con generosit\u00e0, aprire il cuore e ascoltare I cittadini oppure siete condannati a essere letti da persone che non vi ascoltano pi\u00f9 e che quindi non vi seguiranno pi\u00f9. Quindi attenzione: rischio poi non cos\u00ec lontano scontri, tensioni di strada, tensioni sociali, esagero ma forse non esagero, lotte civili: se tu abbandoni, ti allontani, ti cupi in momenti dove invece puoi aprire e condividere o ancor peggio se opprimi con messaggi dati da grandi colossi multinazionali miliardari che impongono un unico messaggio conseguenza di solito \u00e8 non economia distribuita tensione caos Non benessere. Non so se adesso devi No, stavo pensando c'era questo diciamo paper di Agenti Xstate su cui hanno lavorato appunto anche Pessotto e un altro ragazzo intervistato sul podcast, Simone e Mario Palazzoli, dove appunto si diceva vabb\u00e8 tante cose per\u00f2 su come, come il mondo sia diventato estremamente veloce, nel senso questa \u00e8 la sensazione che abbiamo quando usiamo I vari servizi, internet, eccetera, mentre lo Stato in qualche modo questa velocit\u00e0 ancora non l' raggiunta, in qualche modo forse si dovrebbe riadattare se no perde anche come dire di competitivit\u00e0. Cio\u00e8 nel senso che uno dice a 'sto punto usa un servizio privato anzich\u00e9 lo Stato praticamente. Assolutamente s\u00ec, in questo da amministratore, ormai l'ho fatto da tanti anni purtroppo \u00e8 vero che la burocrazia, I regolamenti adesso non voglio toccare tema garante della privacy perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto caldo in questo momento per\u00f2 non aiutano, non aiutano tutti questi regolamenti che chiaro da un lato attenzione, per\u00f2 dall'altro imponi alle istituzioni I 1000 cavilli, 1000 regolamenti che li ingessano, mentre allo stesso tempo il cittadino regala tutti I suoi dati, tutti I suoi spostamenti, tutte le sue scelte ogni giorno a privati che poi quei dati li utilizzano. Allora perch\u00e9 non li deve usare un Comune per, non li pu\u00f2 usare un comune per migliorare dei servizi, fare economia e a quel punto avere pi\u00f9 risorse per la disabilit\u00e0 o chi \u00e8 in difficolt\u00e0 o migliorare il trasporto pubblico o una regione migliorare la sanit\u00e0 utilizzando dati di cui \u00e8 in possesso ma che non pu\u00f2 aggregare, non pu\u00f2 analizzare, non pu\u00f2 utilizzare per fare politica quando invece me li usano piattaforme per poi mandarmi la pubblicit\u00e0 di cosa comprare, di andare a mangiare il panino o di che video guardare sui social. Questa 2\u00ba me \u00e8 una sfida che se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento al governo, ma anche se ci fosse un Ministero dell'Innovazione gi\u00e0 sarebbe un passo avanti. Nel 2026 litri'Italia non un Ministero dell'Innovazione tecnologica e se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento sarebbe ultra necessario fare. E aggiungo che se ci fossero persone illuminate nei luoghi di comando a parlare di innovazione in questo momento o nei governi si parlerebbe di come investire su raccolte qualificate di dati aggiornate e sulla loro analisi corretta e non solo di algoritmi intelligenza artificiale supercomputer perch\u00e9 come dico da anni il supercomputer, l'algoritmo \u00e8 il robot da cucina che ti fa migliaia di operazioni in poco tempo, miliardi di operazioni in poco tempo, ma se il frigo \u00e8 vuoto gli ingredienti sono scaduti, le uova sono scadute il burro hai messo al posto del formaggio il robot da cucina fa solo delle schifezze ti d\u00e0 delle risposte sbagliate e quindi poi attacchi il robot da cucina, ma non \u00e8 il robot da cucina che sbagliato, \u00e8 come tu hai riempito il frigo, \u00e8 come tu hai raccolto I dati e su questo c'\u00e8 un'ignoranza italiana di grande livello 2\u00ba me. Fantastico! No scherzo! Comunque grazie 1000 davvero! 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su un altro episodio del podcast Democragrass Innovators. Diamo il benvenuto a Massimo Bugani che \u00e8 stato tra I fondatori della piattaforma russo. Va beh, innanzitutto volevo ringraziarti per il tuo tempo.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie a voi. Grazie a voi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ci mancherebbe. Diciamo diverse domande riguardo a questa diciamo quello che ormai di quanti anni fa si parla di\n\nSpeaker 1: La piattaforma Rousseau\n\nSpeaker 0: 1\u00ba mi dicevi che diciamo la tua parte non era quella legata al, come dire, al funzionamento tecnico, ma pi\u00f9 una parte non so pi\u00f9 politica, non so come descriveressi.\n\nSpeaker 1: E nella dare suggerimenti e indicazione per quella che poteva essere l'utilit\u00e0 politica della piattaforma, paesi esteri o da comuni dove magari non c'erano membri dei 5 Stelle oppure condivisione di atti prodotti dai 5 Stelle per semplificare il lavoro di altri che potevano copiare un lavoro gi\u00e0 fatto e declinarlo solo per il proprio comune le call to action quindi come invitare le persone a fare attivit\u00e0, a organizzarsi sul territorio poi invece c'era la parte di votazioni su tematiche, la parte di proposte di legge e invece quella delle votazioni, degli iscritti, quella non competeva a me, per\u00f2 era parte fondamentale perch\u00e9 ovviamente su quella piattaforma si concentrava l'attivit\u00e0 politica del Movimento 5 Stelle e comunque veniva ingaggiata in tutti I momenti pi\u00f9 importanti. Quindi c'era una vita della piattaforma diciamo a giri costanti durante tutto l'anno che forniva comunque supporto politico a una forza politica che non aveva sedi, non aveva segretari di partito, non aveva sponsor, non aveva circoli e quindi dava quel supporto l\u00ec in ogni momento. In pi\u00f9 c'erano I momenti quelli che diventavano pi\u00f9 importanti a livello mediatico hanno quelli delle scelte, delle votazioni su varie tematiche.\n\nSpeaker 0: E volevo che siamo appunto a distanza cose di alcuni anni, 2\u00ba te cosa, diciamo le 2 domande, cosa funzionato e cosa non funzionato?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora io ho rammarico di non aver visto la piattaforma in funzione con Gianroberto Casaleggio in vita, perch\u00e9 l'autorevolezza della persona che aveva ideato fondamentalmente il movimento 5 stelle e la sua modalit\u00e0 di azione che non poteva trascendere dalla partecipazione diretta dei cittadini era fondamentale per garantire una linea, una visione e un'alta percentuale di condivisione all'interno del movimento delle scelte che venivano prese. Cio\u00e8 era una persona talmente autorevole, talmente riconosciuta, talmente colta che aveva dal 2005 quando nascono I meetup fino arrivare al 2016 quando purtroppo ci lasciato aveva avuto un ruolo fondamentale, aveva costruito un percorso che si basava molto sulla sua credibilit\u00e0 e la sua forza nei confronti degli iscritti, degli eletti, la sua presenza. Quindi quando mi dici cosa non funzionato Rousseau va in funzione, diventa di supporto per una forza che poi 2 anni dopo va al governo in un momento in cui all'interno del Movimento 5 Stelle c'erano gi\u00e0 varie sommosse, e discussioni tensioni su molte tematiche e un perimetro culturale politico di scelte di visioni non ben definito quindi in questo contesto si finisce dentro anche Rousseau per cui a molti anche parlamentari non piaceva avere Rousseau, vivevano come una specie di controllo, non piaceva il doverlo finanziare perch\u00e9 comunque non prendendo finanziamenti pubblici, non avendo sponsor privati, anche la piattaforma viveva sulle spalle delle donazioni che facevano gli eletti un po' spontaneamente, un po' spontaneamente e che facevano gli iscritti.\n\nQuindi nel momento in cui, ma anche la figura di Gianroberto, queste fibrillazioni interne del movimento portavano anche ad avere delle discussioni su Rousseau date semplicemente dal fatto di chi scelto che deve essere il tal senatore a fare il corso di e-learning su Rousseau per un particolare atto, per spiegare come funzionano I consigli comunali o regionali e quindi se me, io non pago, io non lo finanzio. Quindi questo \u00e8 stato un po' 2\u00ba me la fragilit\u00e0 maggiore, nel senso che non abbiamo avuto il sostegno interno che pensavamo di avere, perch\u00e9 per anni la rete, la partecipazione diretta dei cittadini, le proposte dei cittadini erano state il fulcro. Invece, soprattutto una volta arrivati al governo questa cosa veniva vista da molti con fastidio e non c'era pi\u00f9 una voce autorevole che dicesse questa \u00e8 la strada del movimento e se si sposano I principi del movimento questa \u00e8 una delle prime cose da accettare. Invece la cosa che funzionato 2\u00ba me tantissimo \u00e8 che \u00e8 stata il 1\u00ba grande esperimento internazionale in cui I cittadini, gli iscritti di una forza politica, hanno veramente inciso su scelte fondamentali della forza politica, come decidere se partecipare o meno all'ingresso in alcuni governi che si sono creati.\n\nQuelli sono stati I voti pi\u00f9 eclatanti, ma tutte le altre votazioni comunque erano sempre per prendere decisioni fondamentali per il movimento che non le prendeva chiudendosi in una stanza con il segretario di partito, con 4 come si dice sempre il Cerchio Magico, 4 componenti del cerchio magico del segretario di partito che decidono, avendo sentito un po' di referenti territoriali, quale strada prendere. No, l\u00ec si discuteva, si discuteva fisicamente in presenza e in rete sulla piattaforma e poi si votava e si facevano esprimere gli iscritti. Qualcosa a mio avviso di straordinario e che doveva essere assolutamente caldeggiato e sponsorizzato e sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzato. I risultati erano evidenti perch\u00e9 l'iscritto si sentiva veramente responsabilizzato, si sentiva veramente ingaggiato. Io mi ricordo ancora I primi che fecero proposte di legge libere che poi mettemmo al voto.\n\nRicordo la 1\u00ba volta, mi sembrano 98 proposte di legge che venivano da liberi cittadini, e mi ricordo il 1\u00ba che poi incontr\u00f2 I parlamentari, la camera al senato e che vide depositato un disegno di legge, di proposta che poi venne votato dal Parlamento, da Camera e Senato, nelle 2 Camere e quasi non ci poteva credere. E il percorso era stato di scegliete fra queste 98 proposte quale devono avere la priorit\u00e0, quale 2\u00ba voi \u00e8 pi\u00f9 importante, ne rimasero 5, 5 quella che deve per 1\u00ba, venne scelta quella per 1\u00ba e per me quei momenti l\u00ec erano esaltanti. Era veramente il coronamento di un sogno mio, ma anche mi sentivo di tenere in vita il pensiero di Gianroberto Casaleggio e di dimostrare che si poteva fare e che si poteva avere una forza politica davvero che faceva le liste, I candidati, che prendeva scelte politiche facendo votare gli iscritti. Cosa assolutamente rivoluzionaria\n\nSpeaker 0: Che poi erano tanti, nel senso appunto mi ricordo che ci saranno magari critiche perch\u00e9 si diceva che erano pochi magari rispetto a tutto l'elettorato non so dei 5 Stelle per\u00f2 comunque erano un numero considerevole considerando cio\u00e8 che le piattaforme di partecipazione civica spesso si ritrovano ad avere pochi\n\nSpeaker 1: Assolutamente! No, io mi ricordo che venivano mediamente anche davanti a Pensate, ci sono 170000 iscritti e su questa votazione hanno votato solo 54000. Hanno votato quelli che conoscevano il tema e volevano votare e volevano incidere su quel tema specifico. Oppure le critiche ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per votare quando per primi facevamo fare una votazione senza dover fare code dove votavano 54000 persone, molte provavano appena si apriva simultaneamente, le piattaforme un po' singlefavano, ma io dicevo tutti pensate ai siti che vendono biglietti per I concerti che vanno in blocco quando devono vendere 50000 biglietti che sono 50000 biglietti uguali mentre noi avevamo le divisioni territoriali la scelta quindi erano votazioni che moltiplicavano tantissimo la complessit\u00e0 della votazione perch\u00e9 magari dovevi votare per le regionali, aprivi il voto quel giorno l\u00ec, erano su sei-sette regioni, ma dove c'erano le persone residenti nei vari comuni che dovevano entrare, dovevano poter votare solo per quella sezione, per quella circoscrizione, per l'area di residenza che si potevano candidare solo nella loro area. Quindi un livello di complessit\u00e0 informatica non sono informatico ma lo capisce chiunque che era enorme eppure anche I siti di vendita di biglietti per la partita per il concerto si bloccano quando c'\u00e8 grande afflusso ma 6 comodamente seduto in ufficio sul divano e ritenterai successivamente.\n\nInvece veniva presa questa come pensate come stanno manipolando? Ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per riuscire a votare e sinceramente mi facevano il suo Rimet, cio\u00e8 capire che un po' c'era malafede, ma molto c'era ingenuit\u00e0, ignoranza essendo I primi, I primi che utilizzavano questi mezzi che li utilizzavano, capimmo che anche in buona fede c'erano molte persone attente anche, insomma, proprio addetti ai lavori della politica del giornalismo che non si capivano niente e che criticavano senza capire cosa stesse succedendo.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo! Stavo pensando appunto Il 5 Sales Corotau \u00e8 stato come dicevo un 1\u00ba grande esperimento anche proprio internazionale. Mi chiedo appunto, come dire, ai giorni nostri o che ne so nei prossimi anni se qualcuno ripetesse questo esperimento. Ci ho visto anche in giro ci sono stati, a volte vengono chiamati high Party, ci sono state in Danimarca, cio\u00e8 quello in Giappone, in Brasile anche, abbiamo fatto dei tentativi in qualche modo, cio\u00e8 molto diversi magari da quel 5 stelle russo, per\u00f2 allo stesso tempo simili perch\u00e9 si appoggiavano magari una piattaforma di partecipazione. Quindi mi stavo chiedendo appunto adesso magari I tempi possano essere anche un po' pi\u00f9 maturi.\n\nSpeaker 1: 2\u00ba me allora dal punto di vista tecnico, tecnologico e di cultura generale sono molto pi\u00f9 maturi. Dal punto di vista di volont\u00e0 politica non lo so, la dico cos\u00ec nel senso che per me che adesso ad esempio faccio parte del Partito Democratico sarebbe fondamentale per un partito cos\u00ec strutturato organizzato come il Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto internamente, spero 1\u00ba o poi di riuscire a sfondare, avere una piattaforma con un utilizzo del genere. E con l'esperienza che ho fatto in questi vent'anni ormai, 21 anni, mi rendo conto che probabilmente al Movimento 5 stelle di allora mancava una rete territoriale strutturata e quindi dei pesi, dei contrappesi e come posso dire una forza territoriale solida che sarebbe stata molto importante per supportare la piattaforma. Viceversa \u00e8 un partito strutturato con circoli, sezioni, segretari, percorsi democratici per selezione del Presidente di circolo del Segretario di quartiere, del Segretario Cittadino, del Segretario provinciale, del Segretario Regionale a mio avviso malca tantissimo una piattaforma bisognerebbe averle 2 cose io penso che siano le 2 cose insieme l'obiettivo di una buona politica del 2030 diciamo perch\u00e9 tu hai bisogno di radicamento, hai bisogno di contatto fisico costante, hai bisogno di persone di fiducia testate che abbiano dimostrato di saper reggere le pressioni, le tensioni, di saper vivere la complessit\u00e0 della politica, cosa che il movimento non aveva perch\u00e9 quasi tutti non avevano alcuna esperienza politica, la stragrande maggioranza delle persone che entravano, e quindi era molto difficile costruire queste reti al di l\u00e0 di incontri che si facevano sui territori ma diciamo con uno spirito un po' pi\u00f9 da brainstorming generale pi\u00f9 che da partito organizzato e invece vedere partiti strutturati a mio avviso avrebbero bisogno di momenti in cui la cittadinanza si sente cos\u00ec ingaggiata, parte di una comunit\u00e0 ascoltata e ho scelto io, ho contribuito a sceglierli io.\n\nQuindi non sono stati decisi all'interno di una stanza con davvero la segreteria e un sindaco. Credo che si possa e si debba tendere l\u00ec per riconquistare anche un po' di astensionismo, di riportare al voto persone che oggi non votano pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 si sentono utili solo quando il partito bisogno e poi completamente inascoltabile.\n\nSpeaker 0: Infatti, adesso pensando a questa cosa legata al territorio, diverse volte mi sono chiesto cio\u00e8 appunto I cambiamenti tecnologici a cui stiamo assistendo possono anche far presagire che magari il sistema sociale politico possa avere dei cambiamenti, non so, nel futuro. E mi sono chiesto diverse volte saranno, come dire, I partiti gi\u00e0 esistenti che si adatteranno appunto dotandosi di piattaforme o saranno partiti nuovi come appunto poteva essere 5 Stelle ormai quasi 15 anni fa. C'\u00e8 appunto questa cosa tra il nuovo che arriva un po' che rompe oppure\n\nSpeaker 1: si non ti so dire io spero che partiti importanti radicati strutturati con grande storia con perimetri culturali abbastanza definiti scelgano scientemente di intraprendere anche un percorso di piattaforme a supporto. Non credo pi\u00f9 in esperimenti nuovi perch\u00e9 ho fatto vent'anni di esperienza e la politica \u00e8 complessa. La politica \u00e8 molto complessa, raccontarla come una cosa semplice dove Infatti anche quando veniva detto: ma far votare cos\u00ec su Rousseau, sulle piattaforme, votano persone che non sanno nulla di ci\u00f2 che votano, non faceva bestia a lire, perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 attraverso la piattaforma tu davi quelle informazioni che consentivano a persone di votare delle scelte che il partito andava a fare, quindi gli dai delle informazioni e poi loro andavano a votare. Cosa che invece nei partiti che non usano piattaforme, direi in tutti I partiti italiani di oggi compreso il Movimento 5 Stelle, fondamentalmente chiedi al tuo iscritto di votare quando ci sono le elezioni ufficiali politiche amministrative, ma non gli chiedi mai un altro tipo di partecipazione, non \u00e8 mai ingaggiato in altri momenti, non \u00e8 mai ascoltato e quindi a mio avviso laddove tu hai una sutura con circoli che fanno quel lavoro di informazione che noi facevamo solo con la piattaforma, o comunque soprattutto con la piattaforma molto radicato, dargli la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimersi che \u00e8 un voto ancora pi\u00f9 consapevole 2\u00ba me, ancora pi\u00f9 importante.\n\nMa non accettavo la la derisione sul voto anche allora perch\u00e9 dicevo vorrei vedere nelle altre forze politiche chi chi non avrebbe voglia di esprimersi, di poter udire la propria su certe scelte, su non so la buona scuola di Renzi ad esempio, mi viene in mente adesso, o altri provvedimenti che furono molto impattanti e su cui partiti decisero senza ascoltare minimamente la propria base. Quindi s\u00ec, diteci che magari sta voltando un po' di gente inconsapevole, ma non diteci che non sarebbe bello invece ascoltare anche I vostri scritti sulle decisioni che prendete.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo, infatti riflettevo su in un'altra intervista con Thiago Pessoto. Lui appunto parlava dei budget diciamo, cio\u00e8 nel partecipativo budget e diceva che ci sono tantissime, come dire, cose positive, ad esempio non so dove vengono effettuate, cio\u00e8 dove le persone possono effettivamente decidere dove vengono spesi I soldi, le persone si sentono pi\u00f9 partecipi allo stesso tempo. Diceva anche cose non di riduzione della mortalit\u00e0 infantile, cose come dire molto anche importanti. Poi dicevo non so I politici che attuano politiche di questo genere hanno pi\u00f9 probabilit\u00e0 di essere rielette perch\u00e9 appunto viene apprezzato dai cittadini. Allo stesso tempo per\u00f2 non \u00e8 una pratica cos\u00ec diffusa.\n\nCio\u00e8, appunto penso appunto a questo come le pratiche di partecipazione diciamo siano indubbiamente benefiche Ma nonostante il destino\n\nSpeaker 1: dialisi. Esattamente. La mia lettura \u00e8 che vertici dei partiti e ho visto come Conte deciso di liberarsi di Rousseau e l' fatto perch\u00e9 fondamentalmente sentiva intaccata la sua autonomia decisionale. Ma per me \u00e8 una perdita, \u00e8 un segno di debolezza. Casaleggio era riconosciuto da tutti come il capo fra virgolette del movimento, come la mente, il visionario, il filosofo del movimento e quindi il punto di riferimento del movimento.\n\nAlcuni criticavano questa cosa ma nessuno la metteva in dubbio, eppure faceva esprimere continuamente gli iscritti. Delle volte anche andando in minoranza, ma nel momento in cui tu hai una forza politica che fa un buon lavoro di informazione che spiega le scelte che vorrebbe andare ad intraprendere, o fa scivoloni non capendo che le persone sono troppo lontane da quella scelta, oppure trova il proprio popolo, la propria comunit\u00e0 agganciata su quell'obiettivo e la trova agganciata e partecipa, quindi ingaggiata, quindi ancora pi\u00f9 pi\u00f9 vogliosa di poi andare a raccontare in famiglia con gli amici sul lavoro e di spiegare perch\u00e9 quella scelta \u00e8 stata presa, perch\u00e9 ho partecipato. Io lo vedo come un esperimento straordinario che lo si \u00e8 evoluto accantonare a livello di Movimento 5 Stelle, ma a livello generale dei prelievi nazionali per voler comandare insomma per voler avere pi\u00f9 mani libere all'interno del partito invece la mia esperienza diretta \u00e8 che pi\u00f9 tu coinvolgi pi\u00f9 fai sentire le persone parte di qualcosa veramente per dire anche semplicemente un video al semplice cittadino, non consigliere, non senatore, non ministro, che fa un video che \u00e8 una denuncia, che \u00e8 una provocazione, che \u00e8 un suggerimento, che \u00e8 un'inchiesta, che va 1\u00ba sul blog di Grillo, poi sulla piattaforma e-learning o sharing, quindi viene lanciata sulla piattaforma.\n\nCome guardate cosa fatto questo signor Mario Rossi e questa signora Giorgia Bianchi e ve la consigliamo a tutti? Quella persona l\u00ec dice: Ma io sono finito l\u00ec veramente? Senza dover fare un percorso di leccapiedi, senza dover scalare il partito da consigliere di quartiere, da saletta Veramente mi stanno dando questa importanza? Allora, 1\u00ba di tutto mi impegno ancora di pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 voglio essere pi\u00f9 bravo la prossima volta che propongo qualcosa ma poi creo negli altri una voglia di emulazione di fare la stessa cosa di proporre qualcosa di efficace di essere visibile, di essere per essere visibile, per essere ascoltata. Questo era un processo veramente che come una pallina di neve diventava una valanga e portava una marea di persone a sentirsi rappresentate ingaggiate dal Movimento 5 Stelle.\n\nSostenuto per anni ho sostenuto per anni fino a quando sono uscito che, soprattutto poi quando \u00e8 cresciuta molto la destra in Italia, che bisognasse definire un perimetro culturale di riferimento con pi\u00f9 nettezza per non essere in balia di tensioni interne troppo forti con persone che al tuo interno andavano dall'estrema destra all'instrino sinistra. Quindi a parte dire reddito di cittadinanza anticorruzione dove pi\u00f9 o meno teneva insieme tutti, sulle altre tematiche per le troppe divisioni e quindi per me stringere probabilmente asciugare il bacino elettorale, ma avere un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 definito, ci avrebbe consentito anche di essere pi\u00f9 efficaci con la piattaforma, perch\u00e9 avresti avuto un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 omogeneo e meno tensioni e meno scossoni e per me la piattaforma sarebbe stata ancora pi\u00f9 utile.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ricettavo appunto su questa tensione appunto da una parte chi magari il potere politico, appunto magari se si usano delle piattaforme per la partecipazione in parte uno sta anche cedendo il potere di alcune scelte alla cittadinanza. Mi chiedo come risolvere questa tensione, se sia possibile, se effettivamente magari c'\u00e8 semplicemente bisogno, come dire, un cambio generazionale. Penso a quello che dicevi 1\u00ba, non so che magari, cio\u00e8 che poi, come dire, il risultato anche nel corso delle altre puntate del podcast che non sempre, come dire, la classe politica \u00e8 aggiornata sui diversi sistemi legati alla partecipazione, quindi magari non riescono anche proprio ad immaginarsi una soluzione diversa da quella\n\nSpeaker 1: attuale. Vero, vero? 2\u00ba me, perch\u00e9 l'ho sentita cambiare dentro di me questa cosa che ti sto per dire \u00e8 anche importante fare dei passaggi intermedi. Mi spiego: la critica del Movimento 5 Stelle \u00e8 una persona diventata senatore con 100 click senza alcuna esperienza aveva creato una rete da amici, perch\u00e9 aveva fatto iscrivere I parenti. Critica corretta perch\u00e9 in alcuni casi effettivamente \u00e8 successo cos\u00ec.\n\nQuindi avevi davanti, cio\u00e8 avevi uno accanto all'altro una persona stra appassionata di politica, sempre molto attiva, presente in tutti gli incontri fisici, presente negli incontri online, grande studioso, qualit\u00e0 dialettiche eccellenti, che veniva scelto perch\u00e9 la piattaforma lo faceva emergere quindi veniva votato perch\u00e9 di grande livello accanto magari la persona che non aveva nessuna particolare dote, nessun particolare preso, magari era disoccupato e aveva fatto iscrivere 100 amici per farsi votare. E allora, da quell'esperienza l\u00ec, 2\u00ba me, un partito strutturato potrebbe dire bene I segretari devono fare un listino di 11 persone per la lista di Bologna per le lezioni al Parlamento La circoscrizione di Bologna sono 11? Non so, il listino regionale sono 11? Bene, la segreteria di partito si riunisce e seleziona fra persone non improvvisate, non con l'iscrizione di 100 amici ma conosciute sul territorio, seleziona 50 persone che vengono messe in votazione. Infatti con Gianroberto parlava molto di questa cosa 1\u00ba che se ne andasse.\n\nVengono poi queste 50 persone messe al voto della rete che seleziona le 11 che vanno nel listino, che poi vengono votate dal voto con preferenza di chi deve votare il Consiglio Regionale. E cos\u00ec anche per certe proposte politiche. Perch\u00e9 accetti le proposte da qualcuno che di quella materia non \u00e8 al corrente quanto l'ingegnere che si occupa di quel tema? Bene, allora scelgo 10 ingegneri, 3 filosofi, 2 intellettuali che sono occupati di quel tema palesemente o oggettivamente se ne sono occupati con punti di vista diversi e metto in votazione le idee che hanno proposto queste 10 persone, 15 persone e la comunit\u00e0, gli iscritti scelgono quale di quelle 15 proposte \u00e8 quella pi\u00f9 efficace o che la comunit\u00e0 di quella forza politica vuole portare avanti. 2\u00ba me \u00e8 nei passaggi intermedi che si poteva trovare molta pi\u00f9 forza, molta pi\u00f9 solidit\u00e0.\n\nQuindi l'esperimento \u00e8 stato straordinario, ma effettivamente era il 1\u00ba e aveva delle fragilit\u00e0. Ma resta a mio avviso un esperimento incredibile, incredibile di cui sono straorgoglioso di averne fatto parte e mi dispiace che non si sia lavorato, che a un certo punto non si sia pi\u00f9 voluto ragionare su come farlo andare avanti e migliorarlo ecco perch\u00e9 c'erano tutte le possibilit\u00e0 di farlo Certo. Ma poi tantissimo. Lo facevo gi\u00e0 un po' all'inizio della nostra chiacchierata. Per me per essere efficaci non pu\u00f2 esistere una piattaforma senza partito strutturato e radicato e non pu\u00f2 pi\u00f9 andare avanti un partito strutturato e radicato senza l'aiuto di una piattaforma.\n\nPerch\u00e9 per me alla fine finisce per come sono oggi partiti, tutti I partiti finiscono per parlare fondamentalmente solo alle stesse persone e non fan sentire parte di una comunit\u00e0 I loro iscritti. Gi\u00e0 diventa una dinamica per cui molto spesso mi squilvo il partecipo perch\u00e9 spero di essere letto. Invece la forza straordinaria e positiva \u00e8 quella di partecipo perch\u00e9 mi sento pi\u00f9 forte, mi sento nel giusto, mi sento bene, mi sento meno solo facendo parte di questa comunit\u00e0 e sono fiero di farne parte. Ma non mi interessa essere letto da nessuna parte o magari s\u00ec, ma lo scoprir\u00f2 cammini facendo, non \u00e8 il mio obiettivo. Invece rischi un po' che nei circoli delle forze politiche e nei vari incontri ci siano persone con un chiaro obiettivo anche di carriera personale.\n\nSpeaker 0: Stavo pensando appunto all'importanza di sperimentare proprio perch\u00e9 appunto c'\u00e8 questo cambio tecnologico che \u00e8 velocissimo. Appunto anche la persona che pi\u00f9 si aggiorna fa fatica a a stare al passo con tutte le novit\u00e0 e penso che poi in qualche modo sia anche un cambio che sia appunto se si sta al passo con questi da una parte aggiornamenti tecnologici e quindi comprendere anche come utilizzarli appunto per far partecipare le persone, come dire, pu\u00f2 essere anche una sorta di quasi ricambio di paradigma. Adesso appunto ci sono o I 2 partiti o a volte I 3 partiti come sistema, mentre l\u00ec magari si potrebbe parlare pi\u00f9 di magari o delle singole questioni o appunto come\n\nSpeaker 1: s\u00ec, cio\u00e8 io faccio un programma, no? Io partito faccio un programma che sia per le amministrative in comune, regionali o per le elezioni politiche nazionali faccio un programma, faccio la campagna elettorale quei punti, prendo il voto. Bene, nella vita mondiale, europea, nazionale, regionale, comunale, nella realt\u00e0, nella concretezza della quotidianit\u00e0, ci sono 1000 eventi che esulano da quello che era il tuo programma e chiunque sia amministratore o consigliere parlamentare di posizione, deve prendere delle decisioni su cose che non erano nel suo programma o che magari nel suo programma, ma delle contingenze impreviste, imprevedibili, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, una pandemia possono mettere in discussione. Perch\u00e9 a quel punto non chiedo alla mia comunit\u00e0 che cosa pensa. Per me era l\u00ec lo spirito rivoluzionario ed \u00e8 tuttora l\u00ec perch\u00e9 il programma non basta.\n\nIo sento sempre pi\u00f9 spesso: abbiamo fatto questa cosa cos\u00ec perch\u00e9 era nel nostro programma. Ma nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una pandemia, nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una guerra, che ci sarebbero stati dei dazi. Quindi siccome avviene il programma, ma oggi ci sono stati dei dazi e c'\u00e8 una guerra o c'\u00e8 una pandemia o c'\u00e8 stata l'alluvione, quindi il tuo bilancio regionale, il tuo bilancio comunale, il tuo bilancio nazionale \u00e8 cambiato. La pensi allo stesso modo? \u00c8 pi\u00f9 importante un'altra cosa?\n\nCosa pensano I cittadini? Cosa pensi I cittadini della tua forza politica? Che tu non stai pi\u00f9 ascoltando e gli chiedi qualcosa di fideistico? Di vabb\u00e8 l'ho eletto e mi fido di lui, ma non 6 pi\u00f9 se I tuoi elettori, I tuoi iscritti ti stanno seguendo in quella scelta che stai prendendo in quel momento l\u00ec, perch\u00e9 quella non era nel programma o comunque non era nel programma con gli imprevisti che si sono verificati e che I cittadini stanno subendo. E quindi io sogno un mondo in cui si torna a fare questo lavoro perch\u00e9 attenzione ecco anche qui con I 20 anni fa di esperienza non voglio che questo mio ragionamento vada contro I corpi intermedi.\n\nIo con l'esperienza che ho fatto non sono pi\u00f9 come ero 20 anni fa per sono solo portavoce, non servono I partiti, non servono I sindacati, non servono le sensazioni, non servono corti intermedi, non lo dico pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 ho conosciuto la complessit\u00e0, la fatica e quindi servono persone che studino, che siano rette, che si dimostrino oneste, credibili anche davanti a un errore che ci mettano la faccia e che facciano questo sacrificio che \u00e8 complessissimo, tutto fuorch\u00e9 facile qualunque cittadino pu\u00f2 far politica e io non lo penso pi\u00f9. Qualunque cittadino appassionato e che voglia studiare, di impegnarsi, di soffrire, di vivere tensioni, di capire le proprie lacune, di cercare di colmarle pu\u00f2 farla, non qualsiasi cittadino pu\u00f2 farlo. Per\u00f2 in questo percorso qui le persone che sono dentro hanno il dovere di cercare di informare le persone che sono fuori e di consultarle man mano che si prendono decisioni perch\u00e9 il cittadino pu\u00f2 magari non essere esperto di una legge delle ricadute specifiche di quella legge ma sa che gli hanno tolto 100 euro in busta per qualche motivo o che non avr\u00e0 un servizio ospedaliero e pubblico ma che lo dovr\u00e0 pagare perch\u00e9 qualcosa \u00e8 cambiato e vorrebbe poter dire che non gli va bene che gli stai complicando l'esistenza mentre magari stai finanziando una sanit\u00e0 privata che richiede assicurazioni.\n\nAdesso ecco questo \u00e8 uno dei tanti esempi che potrei fare. No\n\nSpeaker 0: certo! Stavo pensando a questa cosa della vabb\u00e8 s\u00ec, sempre la partecipazione, come dire, \u00e8 il punto. Che quando uno magari parte, cio\u00e8 a volte \u00e8 come dire, \u00e8 come se ci fosse una sorta di sentimento di impotenza diffuso, cio\u00e8 del tipo vabb\u00e8 a parte che ne so non vuotare, se voto non voto tanto che differenza fa? Va bene pure ma proprio a volte anche che ne so ci sono delle cose che magari uno vede un problema nel quartiere o un altro che uno potrebbe mandare non so una mail all'assessore o segnalarlo una certa associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio, associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio non so se ci sia appunto non lo faccio perch\u00e9 tanto non cambia niente, oppure perch\u00e9 magari uno non sa nemmeno di poterlo fare. Adesso magari anche cos\u00ec.\n\nE allora appunto rifletter\u00f2 su come magari anche piattaforme di partecipazione possano in qualche modo far sentire che I cittadini hanno un potere, che pu\u00f2 essere anche semplicemente mandare una mail o segnalare una cosa. \u00c8 assolutamente cos\u00ec.\n\nSpeaker 1: I cittadini hanno molto che non si uniscono per farlo valere e se nel dopoguerra e fino agli anni 80 si univano dalle universit\u00e0 alle fabbriche, ai circoli di partito, ai sindacati per incidere, da un certo punto in poi questa cosa si \u00e8 indebolita, si \u00e8 annacquata e perso valore e perso forza. Quindi 2\u00ba me gli strumenti informatici servirebbero proprio invece per ridare questa forza qua e riportare anche personal voti. Io credo che quel momento in cui il Movimento prende 11000000 di voti, li prende s\u00ec per l'onda di popolo di quel periodo l\u00ec che forse avrebbero intercettato anni dopo le sardine, per dire, in Italia c'era il momento favorevole e quindi non \u00e8 stato solo merito nostro di Grillo Casaleggio, di tutti noi eravamo anche al posto giusto al momento giusto, c'\u00e8 una componente di caso e di fortuna che ci giocato a favore, per quanto abbiamo fatto in molti sacrifici e ci abbiamo messo grande impegno. Per\u00f2 a mio avviso far fallire quell'utilizzo della re smettere di usare le piattaforme da parte di quella forza politica l\u00ec che aveva portato 11000000 di persone al voto che forse non avrebbero votato gi\u00e0 allora \u00e8 un duro colpo per chi stava facendo da anni ragionamenti su basta non voto pi\u00f9 e basta non vengo pi\u00f9 ascoltato e basta mi chiamano solo quando devo andare alla cena di Fratelli d'Italia o alla festa dell'Unit\u00e0 del PD.\n\nEra molto importante a mio avviso e spero che qualcuno degli esperimenti, delle piccole prove anche interne su piccole scelte e valuti le ricadute. Ecco internamente al partito pungolo molto su questo per dire anche nei nei circoli qui di Bologna stiamo facendo su mia spinta dei questionari. Facciamo compilare di questionari cittadini su varie tematiche per avere il sentiment davanti a scelte dell'amministrazione, davanti a scelte impattanti sulla cittadinanza che ti danno un report di questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, questo ci piace molto, questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, ma ci crediamo molto \u00e8 il caso ad esempio dei cantieri del tram che sono adesso a Bologna e tu li ascolti e ti danno un feedback su come ti stai muovendo Perch\u00e9 poi magari ti votano lo stesso anche se hanno mal di pancia, ma se ti votano invece con gioia il lavoro che fanno anche di divulgazione di quello che stai facendo \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 positivo. Quindi io credo che si debba assolutamente ritentare. Adesso le destre stanno utilizzando molto I sistemi informatici alla rete per fare un controllo dei social e delle politiche dei messaggi e quindi \u00e8 tutto il contrario: si sta utilizzando la rete in maniera, come posso dire, oppressiva e oscurante Quindi facendo un lavoro strutturato, costoso per schiacciare e per convincere di andare in una direzione.\n\nInvece la rete deve essere a mio avviso qualcuno deve utilizzarla per aprire. Potrei fare il raffronto con le radio libere. Nasco con le radio libere negli anni 70 ed \u00e8 la musica, il momento di pi\u00f9 grande espansione di musica dal 'sessantacinque agli anni 'ottanta primi anni 'novanta di musica libera, di voci libere che divulgano informazioni e conoscenze, fanno arrivare cose nuove che piacciono. Poi vengono studiate le radio libere entrano gli sponsor, entra la cappa, entra la multinazionale, entra l'oppressione e la radio libera diventa invece una radio che d\u00e0 messaggi di mercato costruiti e opprimenti o comunque che portano in una direzione gli investimenti sia musicali, ma anche poi di acquisti di materiali, beni primari dati dalle pubblicit\u00e0 e dagli investimenti dei colossi e quindi la radio libera fallisce. In questo momento stiamo rischiando invece di perderla, di averla in mano a il NASCO, ai partiti organizzati che la usano per opprimere.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ti faccio un'ultima domanda anche se 1\u00ba in parte hai risposto: se hai qualche, come dire, ci sono persone che magari stanno facendo prototipi, stanno sviluppando tool appunto per la partecipazione, se stanno impegnando su questo, se \u00e8 un piccolo messaggio per loro.\n\nSpeaker 1: No tantissimi tantissimi noi adesso veniamo anche proprio nei Emilia Romagna, abbiamo fatto la giornata della partecipazione gremita come non mai, anche perch\u00e9 insomma siamo qui in diversi nella regione Emilia-Romagna che ci crediamo e spingiamo molto questo tema. Mio suggerimento \u00e8 che si uniscano, che uniscano I flussi, che uniscano gli sforzi perch\u00e9 il messaggio deve arrivare a chi \u00e8 in posizione di potere, di comando, sia a livello governativo che E quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 parte e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 partecipazione. Noi abbiamo bisogno di loro, abbiamo bisogno di loro e abbiamo bisogno \u00e8 chiaro che ogni azienda, ogni associazione, ogni startup cerca di dire il mio prodotto \u00e8 migliore di tutti gli altri prendete il mio comprate il mio e gli altri fan schifo. In questo non si aiutano tanto, per\u00f2 lo capisco, \u00e8 la legge del mercato e della sopravvivenza. Per\u00f2 a mio avviso abbiamo bisogno di miei momenti in cui invece si \u00e8 tutti insieme, come \u00e8 stato qui della giornata della partecipazione, ma quello \u00e8 un giorno, dove siete tutti insieme per dire ai politici.\n\nO capite che dovete abbassare la cresta e aprire proprio con generosit\u00e0, aprire il cuore e ascoltare I cittadini oppure siete condannati a essere letti da persone che non vi ascoltano pi\u00f9 e che quindi non vi seguiranno pi\u00f9. Quindi attenzione: rischio poi non cos\u00ec lontano scontri, tensioni di strada, tensioni sociali, esagero ma forse non esagero, lotte civili: se tu abbandoni, ti allontani, ti cupi in momenti dove invece puoi aprire e condividere o ancor peggio se opprimi con messaggi dati da grandi colossi multinazionali miliardari che impongono un unico messaggio conseguenza di solito \u00e8 non economia distribuita tensione caos Non benessere.\n\nSpeaker 0: Non so se adesso devi No, stavo pensando c'era questo diciamo paper di Agenti Xstate su cui hanno lavorato appunto anche Pessotto e un altro ragazzo intervistato sul podcast, Simone e Mario Palazzoli, dove appunto si diceva vabb\u00e8 tante cose per\u00f2 su come, come il mondo sia diventato estremamente veloce, nel senso questa \u00e8 la sensazione che abbiamo quando usiamo I vari servizi, internet, eccetera, mentre lo Stato in qualche modo questa velocit\u00e0 ancora non l' raggiunta, in qualche modo forse si dovrebbe riadattare se no perde anche come dire di competitivit\u00e0. Cio\u00e8 nel senso che uno dice a 'sto punto usa un servizio privato anzich\u00e9 lo Stato praticamente. Assolutamente s\u00ec,\n\nSpeaker 1: in questo da amministratore, ormai l'ho fatto da tanti anni purtroppo \u00e8 vero che la burocrazia, I regolamenti adesso non voglio toccare tema garante della privacy perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto caldo in questo momento per\u00f2 non aiutano, non aiutano tutti questi regolamenti che chiaro da un lato attenzione, per\u00f2 dall'altro imponi alle istituzioni I 1000 cavilli, 1000 regolamenti che li ingessano, mentre allo stesso tempo il cittadino regala tutti I suoi dati, tutti I suoi spostamenti, tutte le sue scelte ogni giorno a privati che poi quei dati li utilizzano. Allora perch\u00e9 non li deve usare un Comune per, non li pu\u00f2 usare un comune per migliorare dei servizi, fare economia e a quel punto avere pi\u00f9 risorse per la disabilit\u00e0 o chi \u00e8 in difficolt\u00e0 o migliorare il trasporto pubblico o una regione migliorare la sanit\u00e0 utilizzando dati di cui \u00e8 in possesso ma che non pu\u00f2 aggregare, non pu\u00f2 analizzare, non pu\u00f2 utilizzare per fare politica quando invece me li usano piattaforme per poi mandarmi la pubblicit\u00e0 di cosa comprare, di andare a mangiare il panino o di che video guardare sui social. Questa 2\u00ba me \u00e8 una sfida che se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento al governo, ma anche se ci fosse un Ministero dell'Innovazione gi\u00e0 sarebbe un passo avanti.\n\nNel 2026 litri'Italia non un Ministero dell'Innovazione tecnologica e se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento sarebbe ultra necessario fare. E aggiungo che se ci fossero persone illuminate nei luoghi di comando a parlare di innovazione in questo momento o nei governi si parlerebbe di come investire su raccolte qualificate di dati aggiornate e sulla loro analisi corretta e non solo di algoritmi intelligenza artificiale supercomputer perch\u00e9 come dico da anni il supercomputer, l'algoritmo \u00e8 il robot da cucina che ti fa migliaia di operazioni in poco tempo, miliardi di operazioni in poco tempo, ma se il frigo \u00e8 vuoto gli ingredienti sono scaduti, le uova sono scadute il burro hai messo al posto del formaggio il robot da cucina fa solo delle schifezze ti d\u00e0 delle risposte sbagliate e quindi poi attacchi il robot da cucina, ma non \u00e8 il robot da cucina che sbagliato, \u00e8 come tu hai riempito il frigo, \u00e8 come tu hai raccolto I dati e su questo c'\u00e8 un'ignoranza italiana di grande livello 2\u00ba me.\n\nSpeaker 0: Fantastico! No scherzo! Comunque grazie 1000 davvero! Grazie di te, \u00e8 stato un piacere\n\nSpeaker 1: per me, per me davvero!", "paragraphs": [{"sentences": [{"text": "Benvenuti su un altro episodio del podcast Democragrass Innovators.", "start": 0.32, "end": 4.9}, {"text": "Diamo il benvenuto a Massimo Bugani che \u00e8 stato tra I fondatori della piattaforma russo.", "start": 5.92, "end": 14.9}, {"text": "Va beh, innanzitutto volevo ringraziarti per il tuo tempo.", "start": 20.415, "end": 23.235}], "start": 0.32, "end": 23.235, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Grazie a voi.", "start": 23.615, "end": 24.005}, {"text": "Grazie a voi.", "start": 24.005, "end": 24.814999}], "start": 23.615, "end": 24.814999, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ci mancherebbe.", "start": 24.814999, "end": 25.475}, {"text": "Diciamo diverse domande riguardo a questa diciamo quello che ormai di quanti anni fa si parla di", "start": 28.27, "end": 35.87}], "start": 24.814999, "end": 35.87, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "La piattaforma Rousseau", "start": 37.47, "end": 41.489998}], "start": 37.47, "end": 41.489998, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "1\u00ba mi dicevi che diciamo la tua parte non era quella legata al, come dire, al funzionamento tecnico, ma pi\u00f9 una parte non so pi\u00f9 politica, non so come descriveressi.", "start": 71.005005, "end": 82.385}], "start": 71.005005, "end": 82.385, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E nella dare suggerimenti e indicazione per quella che poteva essere l'utilit\u00e0 politica della piattaforma, paesi esteri o da comuni dove magari non c'erano membri dei 5 Stelle oppure condivisione di atti prodotti dai 5 Stelle per semplificare il lavoro di altri che potevano copiare un lavoro gi\u00e0 fatto e declinarlo solo per il proprio comune le call to action quindi come invitare le persone a fare attivit\u00e0, a organizzarsi sul territorio poi invece c'era la parte di votazioni su tematiche, la parte di proposte di legge e invece quella delle votazioni, degli iscritti, quella non competeva a me, per\u00f2 era parte fondamentale perch\u00e9 ovviamente su quella piattaforma si concentrava l'attivit\u00e0 politica del Movimento 5 Stelle e comunque veniva ingaggiata in tutti I momenti pi\u00f9 importanti.", "start": 105.865, "end": 228.8}, {"text": "Quindi c'era una vita della piattaforma diciamo a giri costanti durante tutto l'anno che forniva comunque supporto politico a una forza politica che non aveva sedi, non aveva segretari di partito, non aveva sponsor, non aveva circoli e quindi dava quel supporto l\u00ec in ogni momento.", "start": 228.86, "end": 256.15}, {"text": "In pi\u00f9 c'erano I momenti quelli che diventavano pi\u00f9 importanti a livello mediatico hanno quelli delle scelte, delle votazioni su varie tematiche.", "start": 256.28998, "end": 266.435}], "start": 105.865, "end": 266.435, "num_words": 194.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E volevo che siamo appunto a distanza cose di alcuni anni, 2\u00ba te cosa, diciamo le 2 domande, cosa funzionato e cosa non funzionato?", "start": 270.095, "end": 279.21}], "start": 270.095, "end": 279.21, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora io ho rammarico di non aver visto la piattaforma in funzione con Gianroberto Casaleggio in vita, perch\u00e9 l'autorevolezza della persona che aveva ideato fondamentalmente il movimento 5 stelle e la sua modalit\u00e0 di azione che non poteva trascendere dalla partecipazione diretta dei cittadini era fondamentale per garantire una linea, una visione e un'alta percentuale di condivisione all'interno del movimento delle scelte che venivano prese.", "start": 281.59, "end": 327.60498}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 era una persona talmente autorevole, talmente riconosciuta, talmente colta che aveva dal 2005 quando nascono I meetup fino arrivare al 2016 quando purtroppo ci lasciato aveva avuto un ruolo fondamentale, aveva costruito un percorso che si basava molto sulla sua credibilit\u00e0 e la sua forza nei confronti degli iscritti, degli eletti, la sua presenza.", "start": 327.60498, "end": 355.435}, {"text": "Quindi quando mi dici cosa non funzionato Rousseau va in funzione, diventa di supporto per una forza che poi 2 anni dopo va al governo in un momento in cui all'interno del Movimento 5 Stelle c'erano gi\u00e0 varie sommosse, e discussioni tensioni su molte tematiche e un perimetro culturale politico di scelte di visioni non ben definito quindi in questo contesto si finisce dentro anche Rousseau per cui a molti anche parlamentari non piaceva avere Rousseau, vivevano come una specie di controllo, non piaceva il doverlo finanziare perch\u00e9 comunque non prendendo finanziamenti pubblici, non avendo sponsor privati, anche la piattaforma viveva sulle spalle delle donazioni che facevano gli eletti un po' spontaneamente, un po' spontaneamente e che facevano gli iscritti.", "start": 356.775, "end": 423.06998}], "start": 281.59, "end": 423.06998, "num_words": 240.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi nel momento in cui, ma anche la figura di Gianroberto, queste fibrillazioni interne del movimento portavano anche ad avere delle discussioni su Rousseau date semplicemente dal fatto di chi scelto che deve essere il tal senatore a fare il corso di e-learning su Rousseau per un particolare atto, per spiegare come funzionano I consigli comunali o regionali e quindi se me, io non pago, io non lo finanzio.", "start": 425.61, "end": 462.32498}, {"text": "Quindi questo \u00e8 stato un po' 2\u00ba me la fragilit\u00e0 maggiore, nel senso che non abbiamo avuto il sostegno interno che pensavamo di avere, perch\u00e9 per anni la rete, la partecipazione diretta dei cittadini, le proposte dei cittadini erano state il fulcro.", "start": 462.94498, "end": 482.67}, {"text": "Invece, soprattutto una volta arrivati al governo questa cosa veniva vista da molti con fastidio e non c'era pi\u00f9 una voce autorevole che dicesse questa \u00e8 la strada del movimento e se si sposano I principi del movimento questa \u00e8 una delle prime cose da accettare.", "start": 482.67, "end": 502.87003}, {"text": "Invece la cosa che funzionato 2\u00ba me tantissimo \u00e8 che \u00e8 stata il 1\u00ba grande esperimento internazionale in cui I cittadini, gli iscritti di una forza politica, hanno veramente inciso su scelte fondamentali della forza politica, come decidere se partecipare o meno all'ingresso in alcuni governi che si sono creati.", "start": 504.37003, "end": 529.33}], "start": 425.61, "end": 529.33, "num_words": 207.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quelli sono stati I voti pi\u00f9 eclatanti, ma tutte le altre votazioni comunque erano sempre per prendere decisioni fondamentali per il movimento che non le prendeva chiudendosi in una stanza con il segretario di partito, con 4 come si dice sempre il Cerchio Magico, 4 componenti del cerchio magico del segretario di partito che decidono, avendo sentito un po' di referenti territoriali, quale strada prendere.", "start": 531.07, "end": 564.58}, {"text": "No, l\u00ec si discuteva, si discuteva fisicamente in presenza e in rete sulla piattaforma e poi si votava e si facevano esprimere gli iscritti.", "start": 564.58, "end": 575.03503}, {"text": "Qualcosa a mio avviso di straordinario e che doveva essere assolutamente caldeggiato e sponsorizzato e sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzato.", "start": 576.455, "end": 587.75}, {"text": "I risultati erano evidenti perch\u00e9 l'iscritto si sentiva veramente responsabilizzato, si sentiva veramente ingaggiato.", "start": 591.73, "end": 599.265}, {"text": "Io mi ricordo ancora I primi che fecero proposte di legge libere che poi mettemmo al voto.", "start": 599.325, "end": 606.305}], "start": 531.07, "end": 606.305, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ricordo la 1\u00ba volta, mi sembrano 98 proposte di legge che venivano da liberi cittadini, e mi ricordo il 1\u00ba che poi incontr\u00f2 I parlamentari, la camera al senato e che vide depositato un disegno di legge, di proposta che poi venne votato dal Parlamento, da Camera e Senato, nelle 2 Camere e quasi non ci poteva credere.", "start": 607.83997, "end": 632.375}, {"text": "E il percorso era stato di scegliete fra queste 98 proposte quale devono avere la priorit\u00e0, quale 2\u00ba voi \u00e8 pi\u00f9 importante, ne rimasero 5, 5 quella che deve per 1\u00ba, venne scelta quella per 1\u00ba e per me quei momenti l\u00ec erano esaltanti.", "start": 632.375, "end": 652.72003}, {"text": "Era veramente il coronamento di un sogno mio, ma anche mi sentivo di tenere in vita il pensiero di Gianroberto Casaleggio e di dimostrare che si poteva fare e che si poteva avere una forza politica davvero che faceva le liste, I candidati, che prendeva scelte politiche facendo votare gli iscritti.", "start": 653.305, "end": 675.09}, {"text": "Cosa assolutamente rivoluzionaria", "start": 676.11005, "end": 677.97003}], "start": 607.83997, "end": 677.97003, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Che poi erano tanti, nel senso appunto mi ricordo che ci saranno magari critiche perch\u00e9 si diceva che erano pochi magari rispetto a tutto l'elettorato non so dei 5 Stelle per\u00f2 comunque erano un numero considerevole considerando cio\u00e8 che le piattaforme di partecipazione civica spesso si ritrovano ad avere pochi", "start": 680.71497, "end": 699.06}], "start": 680.71497, "end": 699.06, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Assolutamente!", "start": 700.72003, "end": 700.8}, {"text": "No, io mi ricordo che venivano mediamente anche davanti a Pensate, ci sono 170000 iscritti e su questa votazione hanno votato solo 54000.", "start": 700.8, "end": 742.595}, {"text": "Hanno votato quelli che conoscevano il tema e volevano votare e volevano incidere su quel tema specifico.", "start": 743.77496, "end": 751.76996}, {"text": "Oppure le critiche ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per votare quando per primi facevamo fare una votazione senza dover fare code dove votavano 54000 persone, molte provavano appena si apriva simultaneamente, le piattaforme un po' singlefavano, ma io dicevo tutti pensate ai siti che vendono biglietti per I concerti che vanno in blocco quando devono vendere 50000 biglietti che sono 50000 biglietti uguali mentre noi avevamo le divisioni territoriali la scelta quindi erano votazioni che moltiplicavano tantissimo la complessit\u00e0 della votazione perch\u00e9 magari dovevi votare per le regionali, aprivi il voto quel giorno l\u00ec, erano su sei-sette regioni, ma dove c'erano le persone residenti nei vari comuni che dovevano entrare, dovevano poter votare solo per quella sezione, per quella circoscrizione, per l'area di residenza che si potevano candidare solo nella loro area.", "start": 753.02997, "end": 817.695}, {"text": "Quindi un livello di complessit\u00e0 informatica non sono informatico ma lo capisce chiunque che era enorme eppure anche I siti di vendita di biglietti per la partita per il concerto si bloccano quando c'\u00e8 grande afflusso ma 6 comodamente seduto in ufficio sul divano e ritenterai successivamente.", "start": 817.855, "end": 836.81}], "start": 700.72003, "end": 836.81, "num_words": 222.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Invece veniva presa questa come pensate come stanno manipolando?", "start": 836.81, "end": 840.59}, {"text": "Ci sono volute pi\u00f9 di 2 ore per riuscire a votare e sinceramente mi facevano il suo Rimet, cio\u00e8 capire che un po' c'era malafede, ma molto c'era ingenuit\u00e0, ignoranza essendo I primi, I primi che utilizzavano questi mezzi che li utilizzavano, capimmo che anche in buona fede c'erano molte persone attente anche, insomma, proprio addetti ai lavori della politica del giornalismo che non si capivano niente e che criticavano senza capire cosa stesse succedendo.", "start": 840.89, "end": 876.31}], "start": 836.81, "end": 876.31, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo!", "start": 878.085, "end": 878.585}, {"text": "Stavo pensando appunto Il 5 Sales Corotau \u00e8 stato come dicevo un 1\u00ba grande esperimento anche proprio internazionale.", "start": 879.84503, "end": 888.265}, {"text": "Mi chiedo appunto, come dire, ai giorni nostri o che ne so nei prossimi anni se qualcuno ripetesse questo esperimento.", "start": 890.9, "end": 898.68005}, {"text": "Ci ho visto anche in giro ci sono stati, a volte vengono chiamati high Party, ci sono state in Danimarca, cio\u00e8 quello in Giappone, in Brasile anche, abbiamo fatto dei tentativi in qualche modo, cio\u00e8 molto diversi magari da quel 5 stelle russo, per\u00f2 allo stesso tempo simili perch\u00e9 si appoggiavano magari una piattaforma di partecipazione.", "start": 899.06, "end": 921.2}, {"text": "Quindi mi stavo chiedendo appunto adesso magari I tempi possano essere anche un po' pi\u00f9 maturi.", "start": 921.74005, "end": 926.80005}], "start": 878.085, "end": 926.80005, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "2\u00ba me allora dal punto di vista tecnico, tecnologico e di cultura generale sono molto pi\u00f9 maturi.", "start": 927.705, "end": 935.48505}, {"text": "Dal punto di vista di volont\u00e0 politica non lo so, la dico cos\u00ec nel senso che per me che adesso ad esempio faccio parte del Partito Democratico sarebbe fondamentale per un partito cos\u00ec strutturato organizzato come il Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto Partito Democratico utilizzare, io spingo molto internamente, spero 1\u00ba o poi di riuscire a sfondare, avere una piattaforma con un utilizzo del genere.", "start": 936.34503, "end": 965.215}, {"text": "E con l'esperienza che ho fatto in questi vent'anni ormai, 21 anni, mi rendo conto che probabilmente al Movimento 5 stelle di allora mancava una rete territoriale strutturata e quindi dei pesi, dei contrappesi e come posso dire una forza territoriale solida che sarebbe stata molto importante per supportare la piattaforma.", "start": 965.675, "end": 1004.57}, {"text": "Viceversa \u00e8 un partito strutturato con circoli, sezioni, segretari, percorsi democratici per selezione del Presidente di circolo del Segretario di quartiere, del Segretario Cittadino, del Segretario provinciale, del Segretario Regionale a mio avviso malca tantissimo una piattaforma bisognerebbe averle 2 cose io penso che siano le 2 cose insieme l'obiettivo di una buona politica del 2030 diciamo perch\u00e9 tu hai bisogno di radicamento, hai bisogno di contatto fisico costante, hai bisogno di persone di fiducia testate che abbiano dimostrato di saper reggere le pressioni, le tensioni, di saper vivere la complessit\u00e0 della politica, cosa che il movimento non aveva perch\u00e9 quasi tutti non avevano alcuna esperienza politica, la stragrande maggioranza delle persone che entravano, e quindi era molto difficile costruire queste reti al di l\u00e0 di incontri che si facevano sui territori ma diciamo con uno spirito un po' pi\u00f9 da brainstorming generale pi\u00f9 che da partito organizzato e invece vedere partiti strutturati a mio avviso avrebbero bisogno di momenti in cui la cittadinanza si sente cos\u00ec ingaggiata, parte di una comunit\u00e0 ascoltata e ho scelto io, ho contribuito a sceglierli io.", "start": 1005.91003, "end": 1128.515}], "start": 927.705, "end": 1128.515, "num_words": 316.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi non sono stati decisi all'interno di una stanza con davvero la segreteria e un sindaco.", "start": 1128.975, "end": 1142.4529}, {"text": "Credo che si possa e si debba tendere l\u00ec per riconquistare anche un po' di astensionismo, di riportare al voto persone che oggi non votano pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 si sentono utili solo quando il partito bisogno e poi completamente inascoltabile.", "start": 1142.65, "end": 1158.715}], "start": 1128.975, "end": 1158.715, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Infatti, adesso pensando a questa cosa legata al territorio, diverse volte mi sono chiesto cio\u00e8 appunto I cambiamenti tecnologici a cui stiamo assistendo possono anche far presagire che magari il sistema sociale politico possa avere dei cambiamenti, non so, nel futuro.", "start": 1163.0399, "end": 1180.6649}, {"text": "E mi sono chiesto diverse volte saranno, come dire, I partiti gi\u00e0 esistenti che si adatteranno appunto dotandosi di piattaforme o saranno partiti nuovi come appunto poteva essere 5 Stelle ormai quasi 15 anni fa.", "start": 1180.885, "end": 1195.64}, {"text": "C'\u00e8 appunto questa cosa tra il nuovo che arriva un po' che rompe oppure", "start": 1197.78, "end": 1202.2001}], "start": 1163.0399, "end": 1202.2001, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "si non ti so dire io spero che partiti importanti radicati strutturati con grande storia con perimetri culturali abbastanza definiti scelgano scientemente di intraprendere anche un percorso di piattaforme a supporto.", "start": 1205.815, "end": 1225.2999}, {"text": "Non credo pi\u00f9 in esperimenti nuovi perch\u00e9 ho fatto vent'anni di esperienza e la politica \u00e8 complessa.", "start": 1229.0399, "end": 1239.785}, {"text": "La politica \u00e8 molto complessa, raccontarla come una cosa semplice dove Infatti anche quando veniva detto: ma far votare cos\u00ec su Rousseau, sulle piattaforme, votano persone che non sanno nulla di ci\u00f2 che votano, non faceva bestia a lire, perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 attraverso la piattaforma tu davi quelle informazioni che consentivano a persone di votare delle scelte che il partito andava a fare, quindi gli dai delle informazioni e poi loro andavano a votare.", "start": 1240.3251, "end": 1277.725}, {"text": "Cosa che invece nei partiti che non usano piattaforme, direi in tutti I partiti italiani di oggi compreso il Movimento 5 Stelle, fondamentalmente chiedi al tuo iscritto di votare quando ci sono le elezioni ufficiali politiche amministrative, ma non gli chiedi mai un altro tipo di partecipazione, non \u00e8 mai ingaggiato in altri momenti, non \u00e8 mai ascoltato e quindi a mio avviso laddove tu hai una sutura con circoli che fanno quel lavoro di informazione che noi facevamo solo con la piattaforma, o comunque soprattutto con la piattaforma molto radicato, dargli la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimersi che \u00e8 un voto ancora pi\u00f9 consapevole 2\u00ba me, ancora pi\u00f9 importante.", "start": 1278.45, "end": 1334.8}], "start": 1205.815, "end": 1334.8, "num_words": 230.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ma non accettavo la la derisione sul voto anche allora perch\u00e9 dicevo vorrei vedere nelle altre forze politiche chi chi non avrebbe voglia di esprimersi, di poter udire la propria su certe scelte, su non so la buona scuola di Renzi ad esempio, mi viene in mente adesso, o altri provvedimenti che furono molto impattanti e su cui partiti decisero senza ascoltare minimamente la propria base.", "start": 1335.42, "end": 1368.71}, {"text": "Quindi s\u00ec, diteci che magari sta voltando un po' di gente inconsapevole, ma non diteci che non sarebbe bello invece ascoltare anche I vostri scritti sulle decisioni che prendete.", "start": 1368.71, "end": 1382.735}], "start": 1335.42, "end": 1382.735, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo, infatti riflettevo su in un'altra intervista con Thiago Pessoto.", "start": 1385.035, "end": 1391.57}, {"text": "Lui appunto parlava dei budget diciamo, cio\u00e8 nel partecipativo budget e diceva che ci sono tantissime, come dire, cose positive, ad esempio non so dove vengono effettuate, cio\u00e8 dove le persone possono effettivamente decidere dove vengono spesi I soldi, le persone si sentono pi\u00f9 partecipi allo stesso tempo.", "start": 1392.79, "end": 1416.64}, {"text": "Diceva anche cose non di riduzione della mortalit\u00e0 infantile, cose come dire molto anche importanti.", "start": 1416.64, "end": 1424.58}, {"text": "Poi dicevo non so I politici che attuano politiche di questo genere hanno pi\u00f9 probabilit\u00e0 di essere rielette perch\u00e9 appunto viene apprezzato dai cittadini.", "start": 1425.12, "end": 1436.095}, {"text": "Allo stesso tempo per\u00f2 non \u00e8 una pratica cos\u00ec diffusa.", "start": 1438.715, "end": 1444.72}], "start": 1385.035, "end": 1444.72, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Cio\u00e8, appunto penso appunto a questo come le pratiche di partecipazione diciamo siano indubbiamente benefiche Ma nonostante il destino", "start": 1445.1799, "end": 1456.865}], "start": 1445.1799, "end": 1456.865, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "dialisi.", "start": 1457.405, "end": 1457.905}, {"text": "Esattamente.", "start": 1458.4451, "end": 1458.9451}, {"text": "La mia lettura \u00e8 che vertici dei partiti e ho visto come Conte deciso di liberarsi di Rousseau e l' fatto perch\u00e9 fondamentalmente sentiva intaccata la sua autonomia decisionale.", "start": 1461.005, "end": 1476.8701}, {"text": "Ma per me \u00e8 una perdita, \u00e8 un segno di debolezza.", "start": 1476.8701, "end": 1479.81}, {"text": "Casaleggio era riconosciuto da tutti come il capo fra virgolette del movimento, come la mente, il visionario, il filosofo del movimento e quindi il punto di riferimento del movimento.", "start": 1481.15, "end": 1494.105}], "start": 1457.405, "end": 1494.105, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Alcuni criticavano questa cosa ma nessuno la metteva in dubbio, eppure faceva esprimere continuamente gli iscritti.", "start": 1496.485, "end": 1504.8301}, {"text": "Delle volte anche andando in minoranza, ma nel momento in cui tu hai una forza politica che fa un buon lavoro di informazione che spiega le scelte che vorrebbe andare ad intraprendere, o fa scivoloni non capendo che le persone sono troppo lontane da quella scelta, oppure trova il proprio popolo, la propria comunit\u00e0 agganciata su quell'obiettivo e la trova agganciata e partecipa, quindi ingaggiata, quindi ancora pi\u00f9 pi\u00f9 vogliosa di poi andare a raccontare in famiglia con gli amici sul lavoro e di spiegare perch\u00e9 quella scelta \u00e8 stata presa, perch\u00e9 ho partecipato.", "start": 1504.8301, "end": 1553.775}, {"text": "Io lo vedo come un esperimento straordinario che lo si \u00e8 evoluto accantonare a livello di Movimento 5 Stelle, ma a livello generale dei prelievi nazionali per voler comandare insomma per voler avere pi\u00f9 mani libere all'interno del partito invece la mia esperienza diretta \u00e8 che pi\u00f9 tu coinvolgi pi\u00f9 fai sentire le persone parte di qualcosa veramente per dire anche semplicemente un video al semplice cittadino, non consigliere, non senatore, non ministro, che fa un video che \u00e8 una denuncia, che \u00e8 una provocazione, che \u00e8 un suggerimento, che \u00e8 un'inchiesta, che va 1\u00ba sul blog di Grillo, poi sulla piattaforma e-learning o sharing, quindi viene lanciata sulla piattaforma.", "start": 1557.85, "end": 1613.08}], "start": 1496.485, "end": 1613.08, "num_words": 220.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Come guardate cosa fatto questo signor Mario Rossi e questa signora Giorgia Bianchi e ve la consigliamo a tutti?", "start": 1613.22, "end": 1620.0399}, {"text": "Quella persona l\u00ec dice: Ma io sono finito l\u00ec veramente?", "start": 1620.8999, "end": 1624.84}, {"text": "Senza dover fare un percorso di leccapiedi, senza dover scalare il partito da consigliere di quartiere, da saletta Veramente mi stanno dando questa importanza?", "start": 1625.615, "end": 1638.8351}, {"text": "Allora, 1\u00ba di tutto mi impegno ancora di pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 voglio essere pi\u00f9 bravo la prossima volta che propongo qualcosa ma poi creo negli altri una voglia di emulazione di fare la stessa cosa di proporre qualcosa di efficace di essere visibile, di essere per essere visibile, per essere ascoltata.", "start": 1639.775, "end": 1659.9551}, {"text": "Questo era un processo veramente che come una pallina di neve diventava una valanga e portava una marea di persone a sentirsi rappresentate ingaggiate dal Movimento 5 Stelle.", "start": 1660.5751, "end": 1668.06}], "start": 1613.22, "end": 1668.06, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Sostenuto per anni ho sostenuto per anni fino a quando sono uscito che, soprattutto poi quando \u00e8 cresciuta molto la destra in Italia, che bisognasse definire un perimetro culturale di riferimento con pi\u00f9 nettezza per non essere in balia di tensioni interne troppo forti con persone che al tuo interno andavano dall'estrema destra all'instrino sinistra.", "start": 1668.06, "end": 1704.9299}, {"text": "Quindi a parte dire reddito di cittadinanza anticorruzione dove pi\u00f9 o meno teneva insieme tutti, sulle altre tematiche per le troppe divisioni e quindi per me stringere probabilmente asciugare il bacino elettorale, ma avere un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 definito, ci avrebbe consentito anche di essere pi\u00f9 efficaci con la piattaforma, perch\u00e9 avresti avuto un perimetro culturale pi\u00f9 omogeneo e meno tensioni e meno scossoni e per me la piattaforma sarebbe stata ancora pi\u00f9 utile.", "start": 1704.9299, "end": 1739.6}], "start": 1668.06, "end": 1739.6, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ricettavo appunto su questa tensione appunto da una parte chi magari il potere politico, appunto magari se si usano delle piattaforme per la partecipazione in parte uno sta anche cedendo il potere di alcune scelte alla cittadinanza.", "start": 1741.715, "end": 1759.51}, {"text": "Mi chiedo come risolvere questa tensione, se sia possibile, se effettivamente magari c'\u00e8 semplicemente bisogno, come dire, un cambio generazionale.", "start": 1762.77, "end": 1773.5751}, {"text": "Penso a quello che dicevi 1\u00ba, non so che magari, cio\u00e8 che poi, come dire, il risultato anche nel corso delle altre puntate del podcast che non sempre, come dire, la classe politica \u00e8 aggiornata sui diversi sistemi legati alla partecipazione, quindi magari non riescono anche proprio ad immaginarsi una soluzione diversa da quella", "start": 1773.5751, "end": 1792.21}], "start": 1741.715, "end": 1792.21, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "attuale.", "start": 1793.47, "end": 1793.97}, {"text": "Vero, vero?", "start": 1794.4299, "end": 1795.25}, {"text": "2\u00ba me, perch\u00e9 l'ho sentita cambiare dentro di me questa cosa che ti sto per dire \u00e8 anche importante fare dei passaggi intermedi.", "start": 1795.7899, "end": 1809.135}, {"text": "Mi spiego: la critica del Movimento 5 Stelle \u00e8 una persona diventata senatore con 100 click senza alcuna esperienza aveva creato una rete da amici, perch\u00e9 aveva fatto iscrivere I parenti.", "start": 1810.78, "end": 1827.195}, {"text": "Critica corretta perch\u00e9 in alcuni casi effettivamente \u00e8 successo cos\u00ec.", "start": 1827.695, "end": 1831.775}], "start": 1793.47, "end": 1831.775, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi avevi davanti, cio\u00e8 avevi uno accanto all'altro una persona stra appassionata di politica, sempre molto attiva, presente in tutti gli incontri fisici, presente negli incontri online, grande studioso, qualit\u00e0 dialettiche eccellenti, che veniva scelto perch\u00e9 la piattaforma lo faceva emergere quindi veniva votato perch\u00e9 di grande livello accanto magari la persona che non aveva nessuna particolare dote, nessun particolare preso, magari era disoccupato e aveva fatto iscrivere 100 amici per farsi votare.", "start": 1831.775, "end": 1874.25}, {"text": "E allora, da quell'esperienza l\u00ec, 2\u00ba me, un partito strutturato potrebbe dire bene I segretari devono fare un listino di 11 persone per la lista di Bologna per le lezioni al Parlamento La circoscrizione di Bologna sono 11?", "start": 1874.7899, "end": 1895.6}, {"text": "Non so, il listino regionale sono 11?", "start": 1895.6, "end": 1898.02}, {"text": "Bene, la segreteria di partito si riunisce e seleziona fra persone non improvvisate, non con l'iscrizione di 100 amici ma conosciute sul territorio, seleziona 50 persone che vengono messe in votazione.", "start": 1898.88, "end": 1915.4249}, {"text": "Infatti con Gianroberto parlava molto di questa cosa 1\u00ba che se ne andasse.", "start": 1915.4249, "end": 1919.205}], "start": 1831.775, "end": 1919.205, "num_words": 162.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Vengono poi queste 50 persone messe al voto della rete che seleziona le 11 che vanno nel listino, che poi vengono votate dal voto con preferenza di chi deve votare il Consiglio Regionale.", "start": 1920.48, "end": 1932.9}, {"text": "E cos\u00ec anche per certe proposte politiche.", "start": 1933.875, "end": 1940.615}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 accetti le proposte da qualcuno che di quella materia non \u00e8 al corrente quanto l'ingegnere che si occupa di quel tema?", "start": 1943.795, "end": 1956.23}, {"text": "Bene, allora scelgo 10 ingegneri, 3 filosofi, 2 intellettuali che sono occupati di quel tema palesemente o oggettivamente se ne sono occupati con punti di vista diversi e metto in votazione le idee che hanno proposto queste 10 persone, 15 persone e la comunit\u00e0, gli iscritti scelgono quale di quelle 15 proposte \u00e8 quella pi\u00f9 efficace o che la comunit\u00e0 di quella forza politica vuole portare avanti.", "start": 1956.85, "end": 1987.07}, {"text": "2\u00ba me \u00e8 nei passaggi intermedi che si poteva trovare molta pi\u00f9 forza, molta pi\u00f9 solidit\u00e0.", "start": 1987.13, "end": 1994.8049}], "start": 1920.48, "end": 1994.8049, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi l'esperimento \u00e8 stato straordinario, ma effettivamente era il 1\u00ba e aveva delle fragilit\u00e0.", "start": 1996.385, "end": 2001.6849}, {"text": "Ma resta a mio avviso un esperimento incredibile, incredibile di cui sono straorgoglioso di averne fatto parte e mi dispiace che non si sia lavorato, che a un certo punto non si sia pi\u00f9 voluto ragionare su come farlo andare avanti e migliorarlo ecco perch\u00e9 c'erano tutte le possibilit\u00e0 di farlo Certo.", "start": 2002.625, "end": 2035.07}, {"text": "Ma poi tantissimo.", "start": 2035.5139, "end": 2037.902}, {"text": "Lo facevo gi\u00e0 un po' all'inizio della nostra chiacchierata.", "start": 2038.3461, "end": 2041.3099}, {"text": "Per me per essere efficaci non pu\u00f2 esistere una piattaforma senza partito strutturato e radicato e non pu\u00f2 pi\u00f9 andare avanti un partito strutturato e radicato senza l'aiuto di una piattaforma.", "start": 2041.77, "end": 2057.585}], "start": 1996.385, "end": 2057.585, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9 per me alla fine finisce per come sono oggi partiti, tutti I partiti finiscono per parlare fondamentalmente solo alle stesse persone e non fan sentire parte di una comunit\u00e0 I loro iscritti.", "start": 2058.0452, "end": 2074.73}, {"text": "Gi\u00e0 diventa una dinamica per cui molto spesso mi squilvo il partecipo perch\u00e9 spero di essere letto.", "start": 2080.0251, "end": 2085.485}, {"text": "Invece la forza straordinaria e positiva \u00e8 quella di partecipo perch\u00e9 mi sento pi\u00f9 forte, mi sento nel giusto, mi sento bene, mi sento meno solo facendo parte di questa comunit\u00e0 e sono fiero di farne parte.", "start": 2086.425, "end": 2105.065}, {"text": "Ma non mi interessa essere letto da nessuna parte o magari s\u00ec, ma lo scoprir\u00f2 cammini facendo, non \u00e8 il mio obiettivo.", "start": 2105.205, "end": 2110.7449}, {"text": "Invece rischi un po' che nei circoli delle forze politiche e nei vari incontri ci siano persone con un chiaro obiettivo anche di carriera personale.", "start": 2111.685, "end": 2125.09}], "start": 2058.0452, "end": 2125.09, "num_words": 134.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Stavo pensando appunto all'importanza di sperimentare proprio perch\u00e9 appunto c'\u00e8 questo cambio tecnologico che \u00e8 velocissimo.", "start": 2128.925, "end": 2137.825}, {"text": "Appunto anche la persona che pi\u00f9 si aggiorna fa fatica a a stare al passo con tutte le novit\u00e0 e penso che poi in qualche modo sia anche un cambio che sia appunto se si sta al passo con questi da una parte aggiornamenti tecnologici e quindi comprendere anche come utilizzarli appunto per far partecipare le persone, come dire, pu\u00f2 essere anche una sorta di quasi ricambio di paradigma.", "start": 2139.405, "end": 2170.39}, {"text": "Adesso appunto ci sono o I 2 partiti o a volte I 3 partiti come sistema, mentre l\u00ec magari si potrebbe parlare pi\u00f9 di magari o delle singole questioni o appunto come", "start": 2170.45, "end": 2182.3098}], "start": 2128.925, "end": 2182.3098, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "s\u00ec, cio\u00e8 io faccio un programma, no?", "start": 2184.485, "end": 2187.085}, {"text": "Io partito faccio un programma che sia per le amministrative in comune, regionali o per le elezioni politiche nazionali faccio un programma, faccio la campagna elettorale quei punti, prendo il voto.", "start": 2187.085, "end": 2201.79}, {"text": "Bene, nella vita mondiale, europea, nazionale, regionale, comunale, nella realt\u00e0, nella concretezza della quotidianit\u00e0, ci sono 1000 eventi che esulano da quello che era il tuo programma e chiunque sia amministratore o consigliere parlamentare di posizione, deve prendere delle decisioni su cose che non erano nel suo programma o che magari nel suo programma, ma delle contingenze impreviste, imprevedibili, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, come un'alluvione, un terremoto, una guerra, una pandemia possono mettere in discussione.", "start": 2201.8901, "end": 2243.575}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 a quel punto non chiedo alla mia comunit\u00e0 che cosa pensa.", "start": 2244.9949, "end": 2250.6199}, {"text": "Per me era l\u00ec lo spirito rivoluzionario ed \u00e8 tuttora l\u00ec perch\u00e9 il programma non basta.", "start": 2253.96, "end": 2261.42}], "start": 2184.485, "end": 2261.42, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Io sento sempre pi\u00f9 spesso: abbiamo fatto questa cosa cos\u00ec perch\u00e9 era nel nostro programma.", "start": 2261.64, "end": 2266.715}, {"text": "Ma nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una pandemia, nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una guerra, che ci sarebbero stati dei dazi.", "start": 2266.935, "end": 2276.01}, {"text": "Quindi siccome avviene il programma, ma oggi ci sono stati dei dazi e c'\u00e8 una guerra o c'\u00e8 una pandemia o c'\u00e8 stata l'alluvione, quindi il tuo bilancio regionale, il tuo bilancio comunale, il tuo bilancio nazionale \u00e8 cambiato.", "start": 2276.33, "end": 2289.87}, {"text": "La pensi allo stesso modo?", "start": 2291.135, "end": 2292.655}, {"text": "\u00c8 pi\u00f9 importante un'altra cosa?", "start": 2292.655, "end": 2295.4749}], "start": 2261.64, "end": 2295.4749, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Cosa pensano I cittadini?", "start": 2295.615, "end": 2297.075}, {"text": "Cosa pensi I cittadini della tua forza politica?", "start": 2297.4548, "end": 2300.115}, {"text": "Che tu non stai pi\u00f9 ascoltando e gli chiedi qualcosa di fideistico?", "start": 2301.6948, "end": 2305.4749}, {"text": "Di vabb\u00e8 l'ho eletto e mi fido di lui, ma non 6 pi\u00f9 se I tuoi elettori, I tuoi iscritti ti stanno seguendo in quella scelta che stai prendendo in quel momento l\u00ec, perch\u00e9 quella non era nel programma o comunque non era nel programma con gli imprevisti che si sono verificati e che I cittadini stanno subendo.", "start": 2307.8398, "end": 2328.595}, {"text": "E quindi io sogno un mondo in cui si torna a fare questo lavoro perch\u00e9 attenzione ecco anche qui con I 20 anni fa di esperienza non voglio che questo mio ragionamento vada contro I corpi intermedi.", "start": 2332.4949, "end": 2349.79}], "start": 2295.615, "end": 2349.79, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Io con l'esperienza che ho fatto non sono pi\u00f9 come ero 20 anni fa per sono solo portavoce, non servono I partiti, non servono I sindacati, non servono le sensazioni, non servono corti intermedi, non lo dico pi\u00f9 perch\u00e9 ho conosciuto la complessit\u00e0, la fatica e quindi servono persone che studino, che siano rette, che si dimostrino oneste, credibili anche davanti a un errore che ci mettano la faccia e che facciano questo sacrificio che \u00e8 complessissimo, tutto fuorch\u00e9 facile qualunque cittadino pu\u00f2 far politica e io non lo penso pi\u00f9.", "start": 2349.85, "end": 2391.805}, {"text": "Qualunque cittadino appassionato e che voglia studiare, di impegnarsi, di soffrire, di vivere tensioni, di capire le proprie lacune, di cercare di colmarle pu\u00f2 farla, non qualsiasi cittadino pu\u00f2 farlo.", "start": 2391.905, "end": 2404.8699}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 in questo percorso qui le persone che sono dentro hanno il dovere di cercare di informare le persone che sono fuori e di consultarle man mano che si prendono decisioni perch\u00e9 il cittadino pu\u00f2 magari non essere esperto di una legge delle ricadute specifiche di quella legge ma sa che gli hanno tolto 100 euro in busta per qualche motivo o che non avr\u00e0 un servizio ospedaliero e pubblico ma che lo dovr\u00e0 pagare perch\u00e9 qualcosa \u00e8 cambiato e vorrebbe poter dire che non gli va bene che gli stai complicando l'esistenza mentre magari stai finanziando una sanit\u00e0 privata che richiede assicurazioni.", "start": 2407.545, "end": 2459.33}], "start": 2349.85, "end": 2459.33, "num_words": 224.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Adesso ecco questo \u00e8 uno dei tanti esempi che potrei fare.", "start": 2461.7349, "end": 2464.135}, {"text": "No", "start": 2464.135, "end": 2464.635}], "start": 2461.7349, "end": 2464.635, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "certo!", "start": 2465.975, "end": 2466.475}, {"text": "Stavo pensando a questa cosa della vabb\u00e8 s\u00ec, sempre la partecipazione, come dire, \u00e8 il punto.", "start": 2467.975, "end": 2475.195}, {"text": "Che quando uno magari parte, cio\u00e8 a volte \u00e8 come dire, \u00e8 come se ci fosse una sorta di sentimento di impotenza diffuso, cio\u00e8 del tipo vabb\u00e8 a parte che ne so non vuotare, se voto non voto tanto che differenza fa?", "start": 2477.91, "end": 2492.685}, {"text": "Va bene pure ma proprio a volte anche che ne so ci sono delle cose che magari uno vede un problema nel quartiere o un altro che uno potrebbe mandare non so una mail all'assessore o segnalarlo una certa associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio, associazione o fare qualcosa, per\u00f2 da una parte proprio non so se ci sia appunto non lo faccio perch\u00e9 tanto non cambia niente, oppure perch\u00e9 magari uno non sa nemmeno di poterlo fare.", "start": 2494.9849, "end": 2519.46}, {"text": "Adesso magari anche cos\u00ec.", "start": 2520.4749, "end": 2521.675}], "start": 2465.975, "end": 2521.675, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E allora appunto rifletter\u00f2 su come magari anche piattaforme di partecipazione possano in qualche modo far sentire che I cittadini hanno un potere, che pu\u00f2 essere anche semplicemente mandare una mail o segnalare una cosa.", "start": 2521.675, "end": 2536.44}, {"text": "\u00c8 assolutamente cos\u00ec.", "start": 2537.94, "end": 2539.88}], "start": 2521.675, "end": 2539.88, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "I cittadini hanno molto che non si uniscono per farlo valere e se nel dopoguerra e fino agli anni 80 si univano dalle universit\u00e0 alle fabbriche, ai circoli di partito, ai sindacati per incidere, da un certo punto in poi questa cosa si \u00e8 indebolita, si \u00e8 annacquata e perso valore e perso forza.", "start": 2540.98, "end": 2576.24}, {"text": "Quindi 2\u00ba me gli strumenti informatici servirebbero proprio invece per ridare questa forza qua e riportare anche personal voti.", "start": 2576.24, "end": 2585.095}, {"text": "Io credo che quel momento in cui il Movimento prende 11000000 di voti, li prende s\u00ec per l'onda di popolo di quel periodo l\u00ec che forse avrebbero intercettato anni dopo le sardine, per dire, in Italia c'era il momento favorevole e quindi non \u00e8 stato solo merito nostro di Grillo Casaleggio, di tutti noi eravamo anche al posto giusto al momento giusto, c'\u00e8 una componente di caso e di fortuna che ci giocato a favore, per quanto abbiamo fatto in molti sacrifici e ci abbiamo messo grande impegno.", "start": 2585.095, "end": 2627.03}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 a mio avviso far fallire quell'utilizzo della re smettere di usare le piattaforme da parte di quella forza politica l\u00ec che aveva portato 11000000 di persone al voto che forse non avrebbero votato gi\u00e0 allora \u00e8 un duro colpo per chi stava facendo da anni ragionamenti su basta non voto pi\u00f9 e basta non vengo pi\u00f9 ascoltato e basta mi chiamano solo quando devo andare alla cena di Fratelli d'Italia o alla festa dell'Unit\u00e0 del PD.", "start": 2629.4949, "end": 2666.0952}], "start": 2540.98, "end": 2666.0952, "num_words": 238.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Era molto importante a mio avviso e spero che qualcuno degli esperimenti, delle piccole prove anche interne su piccole scelte e valuti le ricadute.", "start": 2668.955, "end": 2696.055}, {"text": "Ecco internamente al partito pungolo molto su questo per dire anche nei nei circoli qui di Bologna stiamo facendo su mia spinta dei questionari.", "start": 2696.055, "end": 2710.02}, {"text": "Facciamo compilare di questionari cittadini su varie tematiche per avere il sentiment davanti a scelte dell'amministrazione, davanti a scelte impattanti sulla cittadinanza che ti danno un report di questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, questo ci piace molto, questo ci messo in difficolt\u00e0, ma ci crediamo molto \u00e8 il caso ad esempio dei cantieri del tram che sono adesso a Bologna e tu li ascolti e ti danno un feedback su come ti stai muovendo Perch\u00e9 poi magari ti votano lo stesso anche se hanno mal di pancia, ma se ti votano invece con gioia il lavoro che fanno anche di divulgazione di quello che stai facendo \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 positivo.", "start": 2710.38, "end": 2760.925}, {"text": "Quindi io credo che si debba assolutamente ritentare.", "start": 2764.14, "end": 2769.36}, {"text": "Adesso le destre stanno utilizzando molto I sistemi informatici alla rete per fare un controllo dei social e delle politiche dei messaggi e quindi \u00e8 tutto il contrario: si sta utilizzando la rete in maniera, come posso dire, oppressiva e oscurante Quindi facendo un lavoro strutturato, costoso per schiacciare e per convincere di andare in una direzione.", "start": 2769.58, "end": 2799.8298}], "start": 2668.955, "end": 2799.8298, "num_words": 223.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Invece la rete deve essere a mio avviso qualcuno deve utilizzarla per aprire.", "start": 2800.93, "end": 2807.19}, {"text": "Potrei fare il raffronto con le radio libere.", "start": 2808.2249, "end": 2811.6648}, {"text": "Nasco con le radio libere negli anni 70 ed \u00e8 la musica, il momento di pi\u00f9 grande espansione di musica dal 'sessantacinque agli anni 'ottanta primi anni 'novanta di musica libera, di voci libere che divulgano informazioni e conoscenze, fanno arrivare cose nuove che piacciono.", "start": 2811.6648, "end": 2836.7449}, {"text": "Poi vengono studiate le radio libere entrano gli sponsor, entra la cappa, entra la multinazionale, entra l'oppressione e la radio libera diventa invece una radio che d\u00e0 messaggi di mercato costruiti e opprimenti o comunque che portano in una direzione gli investimenti sia musicali, ma anche poi di acquisti di materiali, beni primari dati dalle pubblicit\u00e0 e dagli investimenti dei colossi e quindi la radio libera fallisce.", "start": 2837.845, "end": 2871.0051}, {"text": "In questo momento stiamo rischiando invece di perderla, di averla in mano a il NASCO, ai partiti organizzati che la usano per opprimere.", "start": 2881.32, "end": 2892.955}], "start": 2800.93, "end": 2892.955, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ti faccio un'ultima domanda anche se 1\u00ba in parte hai risposto: se hai qualche, come dire, ci sono persone che magari stanno facendo prototipi, stanno sviluppando tool appunto per la partecipazione, se stanno impegnando su questo, se \u00e8 un piccolo messaggio per loro.", "start": 2895.2551, "end": 2908.79}], "start": 2895.2551, "end": 2908.79, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "No tantissimi tantissimi noi adesso veniamo anche proprio nei Emilia Romagna, abbiamo fatto la giornata della partecipazione gremita come non mai, anche perch\u00e9 insomma siamo qui in diversi nella regione Emilia-Romagna che ci crediamo e spingiamo molto questo tema.", "start": 2909.41, "end": 2927.885}, {"text": "Mio suggerimento \u00e8 che si uniscano, che uniscano I flussi, che uniscano gli sforzi perch\u00e9 il messaggio deve arrivare a chi \u00e8 in posizione di potere, di comando, sia a livello governativo che E quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 parte e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 democrazia e quella non \u00e8 pi\u00f9 partecipazione.", "start": 2931.13, "end": 2964.07}, {"text": "Noi abbiamo bisogno di loro, abbiamo bisogno di loro e abbiamo bisogno \u00e8 chiaro che ogni azienda, ogni associazione, ogni startup cerca di dire il mio prodotto \u00e8 migliore di tutti gli altri prendete il mio comprate il mio e gli altri fan schifo.", "start": 2966.01, "end": 2984.465}, {"text": "In questo non si aiutano tanto, per\u00f2 lo capisco, \u00e8 la legge del mercato e della sopravvivenza.", "start": 2985.13, "end": 2990.75}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 a mio avviso abbiamo bisogno di miei momenti in cui invece si \u00e8 tutti insieme, come \u00e8 stato qui della giornata della partecipazione, ma quello \u00e8 un giorno, dove siete tutti insieme per dire ai politici.", "start": 2991.53, "end": 3002.995}], "start": 2909.41, "end": 3002.995, "num_words": 194.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "O capite che dovete abbassare la cresta e aprire proprio con generosit\u00e0, aprire il cuore e ascoltare I cittadini oppure siete condannati a essere letti da persone che non vi ascoltano pi\u00f9 e che quindi non vi seguiranno pi\u00f9.", "start": 3002.995, "end": 3019.6099}, {"text": "Quindi attenzione: rischio poi non cos\u00ec lontano scontri, tensioni di strada, tensioni sociali, esagero ma forse non esagero, lotte civili: se tu abbandoni, ti allontani, ti cupi in momenti dove invece puoi aprire e condividere o ancor peggio se opprimi con messaggi dati da grandi colossi multinazionali miliardari che impongono un unico messaggio conseguenza di solito \u00e8 non economia distribuita tensione caos Non benessere.", "start": 3019.75, "end": 3060.545}], "start": 3002.995, "end": 3060.545, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Non so se adesso devi No, stavo pensando c'era questo diciamo paper di Agenti Xstate su cui hanno lavorato appunto anche Pessotto e un altro ragazzo intervistato sul podcast, Simone e Mario Palazzoli, dove appunto si diceva vabb\u00e8 tante cose per\u00f2 su come, come il mondo sia diventato estremamente veloce, nel senso questa \u00e8 la sensazione che abbiamo quando usiamo I vari servizi, internet, eccetera, mentre lo Stato in qualche modo questa velocit\u00e0 ancora non l' raggiunta, in qualche modo forse si dovrebbe riadattare se no perde anche come dire di competitivit\u00e0.", "start": 3060.845, "end": 3109.01}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 nel senso che uno dice a 'sto punto usa un servizio privato anzich\u00e9 lo Stato praticamente.", "start": 3109.01, "end": 3113.1099}, {"text": "Assolutamente s\u00ec,", "start": 3114.3699, "end": 3115.43}], "start": 3060.845, "end": 3115.43, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "in questo da amministratore, ormai l'ho fatto da tanti anni purtroppo \u00e8 vero che la burocrazia, I regolamenti adesso non voglio toccare tema garante della privacy perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto caldo in questo momento per\u00f2 non aiutano, non aiutano tutti questi regolamenti che chiaro da un lato attenzione, per\u00f2 dall'altro imponi alle istituzioni I 1000 cavilli, 1000 regolamenti che li ingessano, mentre allo stesso tempo il cittadino regala tutti I suoi dati, tutti I suoi spostamenti, tutte le sue scelte ogni giorno a privati che poi quei dati li utilizzano.", "start": 3117.095, "end": 3156.605}, {"text": "Allora perch\u00e9 non li deve usare un Comune per, non li pu\u00f2 usare un comune per migliorare dei servizi, fare economia e a quel punto avere pi\u00f9 risorse per la disabilit\u00e0 o chi \u00e8 in difficolt\u00e0 o migliorare il trasporto pubblico o una regione migliorare la sanit\u00e0 utilizzando dati di cui \u00e8 in possesso ma che non pu\u00f2 aggregare, non pu\u00f2 analizzare, non pu\u00f2 utilizzare per fare politica quando invece me li usano piattaforme per poi mandarmi la pubblicit\u00e0 di cosa comprare, di andare a mangiare il panino o di che video guardare sui social.", "start": 3156.605, "end": 3197.75}, {"text": "Questa 2\u00ba me \u00e8 una sfida che se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento al governo, ma anche se ci fosse un Ministero dell'Innovazione gi\u00e0 sarebbe un passo avanti.", "start": 3197.75, "end": 3208.805}], "start": 3117.095, "end": 3208.805, "num_words": 214.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Nel 2026 litri'Italia non un Ministero dell'Innovazione tecnologica e se ci fossero persone illuminate in questo momento sarebbe ultra necessario fare.", "start": 3208.945, "end": 3218.06}, {"text": "E aggiungo che se ci fossero persone illuminate nei luoghi di comando a parlare di innovazione in questo momento o nei governi si parlerebbe di come investire su raccolte qualificate di dati aggiornate e sulla loro analisi corretta e non solo di algoritmi intelligenza artificiale supercomputer perch\u00e9 come dico da anni il supercomputer, l'algoritmo \u00e8 il robot da cucina che ti fa migliaia di operazioni in poco tempo, miliardi di operazioni in poco tempo, ma se il frigo \u00e8 vuoto gli ingredienti sono scaduti, le uova sono scadute il burro hai messo al posto del formaggio il robot da cucina fa solo delle schifezze ti d\u00e0 delle risposte sbagliate e quindi poi attacchi il robot da cucina, ma non \u00e8 il robot da cucina che sbagliato, \u00e8 come tu hai riempito il frigo, \u00e8 come tu hai raccolto I dati e su questo c'\u00e8 un'ignoranza italiana di grande livello 2\u00ba me.", "start": 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Grazie a voi. Ci mancherebbe.", "words": [{"word": "grazie", "start": 23.615, "end": 23.744999, "confidence": 0.93408203, "punctuated_word": "Grazie", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "a", "start": 23.744999, "end": 23.875, "confidence": 0.97509766, "punctuated_word": "a", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "voi", "start": 23.875, "end": 24.005, "confidence": 0.68640137, "punctuated_word": "voi.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 24.005, "end": 24.134998, "confidence": 0.42797852, "punctuated_word": "Grazie", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "a", "start": 24.134998, "end": 24.634998, "confidence": 0.69677734, "punctuated_word": "a", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "voi", "start": 24.654999, "end": 24.814999, "confidence": 0.7236328, "punctuated_word": "voi.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.3814504}, {"word": "ci", "start": 24.814999, "end": 24.975, 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Ma nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una pandemia,", "words": [{"word": "cos\u00ec", "start": 2265.0151, "end": 2265.2551, "confidence": 0.9589844, "punctuated_word": "cos\u00ec", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "perch\u00e9", "start": 2265.2551, "end": 2265.495, "confidence": 0.70654297, "punctuated_word": "perch\u00e9", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "era", "start": 2265.495, "end": 2265.735, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "era", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "nel", "start": 2265.735, "end": 2265.975, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "nel", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "nostro", "start": 2265.975, "end": 2266.215, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "nostro", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "programma", "start": 2266.215, "end": 2266.715, "confidence": 0.85595703, "punctuated_word": "programma.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "ma", "start": 2266.935, "end": 2267.095, "confidence": 0.4428711, "punctuated_word": "Ma", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "nel", "start": 2267.095, "end": 2267.2551, "confidence": 0.97802734, "punctuated_word": "nel", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "tuo", "start": 2267.2551, "end": 2267.495, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "tuo", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "programma", "start": 2267.495, "end": 2267.735, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "programma", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "non", "start": 2267.735, "end": 2267.895, "confidence": 0.9604492, "punctuated_word": "non", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "c'era", "start": 2267.895, "end": 2268.215, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "c'era", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "scritto", "start": 2268.215, "end": 2268.455, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "scritto", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "che", "start": 2268.455, "end": 2268.615, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "che", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "ci", "start": 2268.615, "end": 2268.7751, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "ci", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "sarebbe", "start": 2268.7751, "end": 2269.095, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "sarebbe", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "stata", "start": 2269.095, "end": 2269.2551, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "stata", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "una", "start": 2269.2551, "end": 2269.495, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "una", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "pandemia", "start": 2269.495, "end": 2269.995, "confidence": 0.7442627, "punctuated_word": "pandemia,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}], "speaker": 1, "id": "56897f82-9b41-47e8-8e57-2401d6683462"}, {"start": 2270.935, "end": 2282.67, "confidence": 0.9281228, "channel": 0, "transcript": "nel tuo programma non c'era scritto che ci sarebbe stata una guerra, che ci sarebbero stati dei dazi. Quindi siccome avviene il programma, ma oggi ci sono stati dei dazi e c'\u00e8 una guerra o c'\u00e8 una pandemia o c'\u00e8 stata l'alluvione,", "words": [{"word": "nel", "start": 2270.935, "end": 2271.095, "confidence": 0.9921875, "punctuated_word": "nel", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "tuo", "start": 2271.095, "end": 2271.335, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "tuo", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "programma", "start": 2271.335, "end": 2271.655, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "programma", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "non", "start": 2271.655, "end": 2271.735, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "non", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "c'era", "start": 2271.735, "end": 2272.055, "confidence": 0.99869794, "punctuated_word": "c'era", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.865139}, {"word": "scritto", "start": 2272.055, "end": 2272.295, "confidence": 1.0, 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