{"metadata": {"transaction_key": "deprecated", "request_id": "01a05201-b4d2-7182-abce-eda182d77125", "sha256": "06b55ac5a938fe88b423f08ab0ebe8043e491b7c7d7ea10b6be8d95814a2aa71", "created": "2026-08-30T09:30:41.113Z", "duration": 2825.404, "channels": 1, "models": ["4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766"], "warnings": null, "model_info": {"4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766": {"name": "2-general-nova", "version": "2024-01-12.30173", "arch": "nova-2"}}, "summary_info": null}, "results": {"channels": [{"search": null, "alternatives": [{"transcript": "Benvenuti e benvenute in questa 2\u00ba puntata del Democracy Innovator Podcast in italiano, e oggi avremo come ospite Giovanni Di Sotto e CEO e fondatore di Multicast. Grazie. Benvenuto. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. 1\u00ba ti chiedevo appunto cos'\u00e8 Multicast, di cosa si occupa, quali sono le aree. Allora, Multicast intanto vi presento. Sono l'ingegner Giovanni Disotto, fondatore di Multicast nel lontano 2004. Multicast \u00e8 un'azienda che si occupava all'inizio di crittografia digitale in ambito delle telecomunicazioni negli anni, azienda che compier\u00e0 a fine mese 22 anni e si occupava di crittografazione in ambito di telecomunicazione e piano piano si \u00e8 spostata dall'ambito crittografico analogico digitale a quello completamente digitale poi al web. E poi nel 2014 attraverso un partner \u00e8 entrato nel mondo del del voto elettronico e della sicurizzazione dei dei sistemi di votazione elettronica. 1\u00ba quelli filari poi sono diventati sistemi diciamo smart comunque wireless e poi piano piano sono passati poi sul web e sono diventati quelli che in generale oggi utilizziamo che sono dei sistemi completamente o in sas o telematici creando una linea di prodotto nel 2014 che si chiama Skybot e che ad oggi nell'arco di circa 10 11 anni di lavoro fatto s\u00ec che sono transitate circa 5000000 e mezzo di codici fiscale, quindi di aventi diritto a vario titolo e in varie per varie diciamo a vario titolo sulle nostre piattaforme che sono diciamo varie perch\u00e9 non abbiamo un solo sistema abbiamo un po' una sorta di pacchetto molto simile come per semplificare al pacchetto office dove ci sono una serie di prodotti e di servizi che coprono una filiera intera di un processo democratico che va dall'elezione dei componenti di un determinato organo fino alla gestione dell'organo completa che va da quando si riuniscono a quando si distribuiscono I documenti a quando questi organi votano e generano determinate e qualunque documento esecutivo fino alla rendicontazione, la trascrizione, la verbalizzazione e la conservazione sostitutiva a norma 2\u00ba quelle che sono le linee guida e le leggi del codice dell'amministrazione digitale. Quindi copriamo con pezzi che sono sia autonomi e sia integrati tra loro, esattamente come fa Office con Word piuttosto che con Excel e ed altro, tutto l'intero ciclo di un processo decisionale. Invece 1\u00ba appunto che I settori sono principalmente 2: 1 appunto governance, quindi efficienza, trasparenza e poi appunto ambiti pi\u00f9 diciamo elettivi legati a elezioni. S\u00ec, diciamo che I 2 ambiti principali sono quelli che hai detto. Quello della governance \u00e8 quello classico di un consiglio comunale ne prendo uno a caso ma un CDA, un comitato nazionale dei delegati, un comitato di indirizzo generale, cio\u00e8 sono degli organi collegiali che si riuniscono attorno a un'assemblea e che in qualche modo deliberano una serie di decisioni. Questo processo di governance del Consiglio noi lo gestiamo al 100 per 100 perch\u00e9 da quando le segreterie decidono e calendarizzano la riunione, a quando creano l'ordine del giorno, a quando popolano l'ordine del giorno della documentazione necessaria che va dalle dai promemoria immagino CDA con dei promemoria piuttosto che delle delibere in bozza che vengono portate in un consiglio comunale quindi lo svolgimento del consiglio comunale con la gestione di tutto quello che \u00e8 il processo e la liturgia assembleare che va dal calcolo del quorum costitutivo ai vari gestione degli interventi, la gestione diciamo tutto quello che accade dentro il consiglio comunale viene gestito, registrato, documentato e messo in una condizione per la quale dal punto di vista delle segreterie sar\u00e0 molto pi\u00f9 facile e pi\u00f9 veloce ed efficiente gestirlo dal punto di vista del pubblico sar\u00e0 pi\u00f9 trasparente e facile poterne fruire e poter interagire con quello che \u00e8 il processo di quell'organo se quell'organo \u00e8 un organo pubblico penso per esempio al consiglio comunale il sistema consente alla fine del consiglio durante quindi \u00e8 possibile partecipare nel senso di assistere al consiglio tramite lo streaming classico. Poi la piattaforma raccoglie tutta una serie di dati che servono anche per in qualche modo dare una contezza di performance politica. Ad esempio, il consigliere Mario Rossi in area partito x quante volte \u00e8 intervenuto, a quanti consigli comunali assistito, quante proposte di legge apportato, quante delibere, eccetera eccetera eccetera. Il cittadino in questo modo pu\u00f2 capire se il consigliere che votato effettivamente svolto il suo lavoro e non solo in modo demagogico puoi valutare se effettivamente lo stipendio da pubblico amministratore se l'\u00e8 guadagnato o invece fatto solo la presenza. Mentre per quanto riguarda l'aspetto pi\u00f9 diretto, quello di elezione, dell'aspetto elettivo, noi abbiamo una piattaforma Enterprise molto molto grande. Tra l'altro \u00e8 stata una delle piattaforme che ancora in Italia detiene il record di numero di aventi diritto in un'unica tornata elettorale. Abbiamo gestito il referendum sulla legge sulla lingua primaria da studiare nelle nella provincia di Bolzano e hanno partecipato circa 510000 aventi diritto. E' stata una prova molto interessante perch\u00e9 tra le tematiche che abbiamo dovuto affrontare in quello specifico ambito \u00e8 stata quella di attivare un riconoscimento per I minorenni. Quindi per coloro che non hanno all'epoca, perch\u00e9 parliamo del 2022, non avevano all'epoca la possibilit\u00e0 di accedere attraverso SPID o altri tipi di riconoscimento digitale. Quindi c'era un processo che avevamo messo in piedi insieme alla societ\u00e0 che gestisce la parte informatica della provincia autonoma di Bolzano, un sistema di riconoscimento anche per I ragazzi fino a 16 anni. Quindi portato poi alla fine al voto circa il 40 per 100 dell'intera vendita diritto. Ti garantisco Alessandro che per un tipo di diciamo un tipo di votazione del genere \u00e8 una percentuale altissima, altissima. Senza che te lo spoilero ma era abbastanza banale, non \u00e8 stato l'italiano la lingua 1\u00ba scelta nelle scuole della provincia di Bolzano a questo poi chiaramente si seguono hanno seguito moltissimi altri enti diciamo sia 1\u00ba che dopo gestiamo votazioni soprattutto per enti diciamo di diritto pubblico private e diritto pubblico penso per esempio alle casse alle casse previdenziali private. Penso ad esempio a tutti gli ordini professionali, ai consigli e le federazioni degli ordini professionali, a grandi assemblee. Un altro diciamo un'altra nostra peculiarit\u00e0. Siamo stati scelti in sostituzione della piattaforma Rousseau dal movimento 5 stelle che sostituito una piattaforma che era integrante come soggetto politico a un arbitro 3\u00ba che invece non non un ruolo di nessun genere politico e quindi rifacendo comunque rimanere nello statuto l'esigenza di consultare la base elettorale con una certa frequenza, per\u00f2 utilizzando un arbitro e non un giocatore di parte. Questa \u00e8 stata la nostra venuta in quel specifico ambito \u00e8 stato \u00e8 stata questo cambio di passo che non \u00e8 solo un cambio tecnologico ma \u00e8 proprio un cambio diciamo di merito del dell'accesso a questo movimento. Mi stavo chiedendo nel corso del tempo quanto \u00e8 cambiata la piattaforma? Che appunto mi dice che c'\u00e8 questa suite di diversi prodotti, immagino alcuni siano arrivati dopo magari. La piattaforma \u00e8 cambiata praticamente tantissimo e cambia praticamente tutti I giorni. I motivi per cui cambia sono sostanzialmente 3: il 1\u00ba motivo \u00e8 un'esigenza specifica di sicurezza, perch\u00e9 ovviamente capisci bene che tutto il nostro lavoro \u00e8 permeato e si basa su quelli che sono I pi\u00f9 alti protocolli di sicurezza possibile. Perch\u00e9 basta poco per sospendere un'elezione piuttosto che invalidarla, piuttosto che in qualche modo trovare un meccanismo per truccarla no, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto veramente troppo complesso e difficile, ma sicuramente per creare attorno a un determinato processo elettorale quel fumus, perch\u00e9 poi per 10 minuti si \u00e8 spenta, non si \u00e8 accesa, non \u00e8 stato quindi mantenere le performance e I livelli di sicurezza che consentono all'elettore che va a votare di andare liscio come l'olio e a noi chiaramente di prevenire attacchi di ogni genere fa s\u00ec che la piattaforma cambi ogni 3 mesi. Ci sono vari aggiornamenti. Un altro ambito in cui \u00e8 stata cambiata tanto \u00e8 nell'usabilit\u00e0 ovviamente sono cambiati gli strumenti nel 2014 noi abbiamo fatto la 1\u00ba votazione online nel 2016 circa c'erano il browser, c'era internet explorer, c'erano s\u00ec qualche browser ma si votava sostanzialmente con un pc al limite con un tablet. Adesso \u00e8 il contrario, quindi adesso voti direttamente col telefonino e questo fatto s\u00ec che cambiassero anche gli aspetti, e vengo al 3\u00ba punto, di identificazione. Noi siamo stati sempre, per nostra natura, abbiamo sempre introdotto anche quando ne era obbligatorio, ne anzi era un po' visto anche male. Abbiamo introdotto sempre almeno un 2\u00ba fattore di autenticazione all'interno di queste delle nostre piattaforme. Considera che l'elemento critico delle piattaforme informatiche legate al voto o comunque in generale quello dell'autenticazione e quindi nel 2015 diciamo lo SPID era quasi un esperimento e anzi forse se non ricordo male era proprio in fase sperimentale. Quindi noi ci siamo dovuti inventare qualcosa. Considera che molte di queste delle lezioni che facciamo faccio un esempio le elezioni che facciamo per inarcassa dico la 1\u00ba che mi viene in mente perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un cliente storico che \u00e8 la cassa di previdenza degli architetti e degli ingegneri \u00e8 una cassa che gestisce quelli che eleggono e che poi andranno a comporre 1\u00ba il comitato nazionale delegati successivamente il CDA gestisce 11 13000000000 di bilanci l'anno quindi \u00e8 chiaro che il tema della sicurezza, il tema dell'identificazione, della certezza di quello che voti \u00e8 centrale e questo lo puoi fare solo se la tiene aggiornata e segui quelle che sono poi diciamo l'approccio all'usabilit\u00e0 che durante il percorso gli utenti hanno. L'OTP per esempio l'abbiamo sostituito con un sistema che \u00e8 in automatico lo legge il telefono per cui riconosce il telefono insomma ci sono una serie di accorgimenti che abbiamo introdotto soprattutto per semplificare poi considera Alessandro che il voto \u00e8 come avere per l'utente come avere una cartuccia e con quella che unica cartuccia devi colpire l'uccello perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che c'\u00e8 un 2\u00ba no aspetta la rifacciamo proviamo quindi quell'utente che quella piattaforma non l' mai vista \u00c8 la 1\u00ba volta che vede quella cosa, quindi deve essere estremamente intuitiva, estremamente semplice, ma nonostante questo deve essere anche estremamente sicura e quindi certificate il voto che \u00e8 stato espresso. Questa \u00e8 la pi\u00f9 grossa difficolt\u00e0 che noi abbiamo difficolt\u00e0, diciamo, il pi\u00f9 grosso impegno che mettiamo durante questi 11 anni di esperienza per far s\u00ec che le persone facilmente abbiano accesso e possano esprimere il proprio voto. Certo la sicurezza \u00e8 fondamentale in questo caso. So che ci sono anche molte persone contrarie diciamo a questa alla cosa del voto online e che tipo di risposta daresti riguardo non so magari Allora bella domanda dunque c'ho un'ora no? Allora velocissimamente Sono abbastanza non ho I capelli ma se ce li avessi ce li avrei avuti bianchi per cui sono abbastanza anziano da poter dire che il voto elettronico da non poter dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 la panacea di tutti I mali quindi si risolve ogni questione con il voto elettronico d'altro canto le problematiche del voto non elettronico quello analogico le conosciamo da tantissimi anni. Il tema \u00e8 legato a 2 aspetti fondamentali: il 1\u00ba \u00e8 che chi parla di solito non conosce esattamente la materia di cui chi parla e dice che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 certo, non \u00e8 sicuro, eccetera \u00e8 di solito colui il quale poi effettivamente non conosce molto addentro la materia. L'altro aspetto \u00e8 la rieleggibilit\u00e0. Considera che il voto elettronico allora ti faccio faccio un piccolo preambolo ogni anno in Italia hanno diritto ad esprimere un voto circa 21000000 di persone. 21000001 dice ventunoomilioni perch\u00e9 se stai in un condominio almeno una volta devi fare devi votare il bilancio, poi non lo fai, ma il diritto al voto ce l'hai. Hai anche un figlio a scuola? Almeno una volta all'anno devi votare di rappresentante di classe e ogni 3 anni quello di istituto. Fai parte di un'azienda ogni 3 anni ci sono le rls, le rs1, le rsa fai parte di un ordine professionale ogni 4 c'\u00e8 il rinnovo dei consigli direttivi e potrei proseguire per cooperative per tutto quello che fa. Se fai la somma di tutta questa giostra intorno ai 20 21000000 di aventi diritto al voto che potrebbero esprimere una volta l'anno un voto. Chiaramente la bellezza di tutta questa cosa \u00e8 che quelli che acquistano I servizi di votazione non sono quelli che votano ma sono I votati, \u00e8 l'elettorato passivo. Quindi il fruitore del voto non \u00e8 colui il quale pu\u00f2 scegliere lo strumento con cui farlo. E' come se tu per andare a casa 6 tu il guidatore ma ahim\u00e8 la macchina la decide il datore di lavoro. Quindi o con cosa ci va e lo decide il datore di lavoro, il quale chiaramente un interesse diverso rispetto a quello di chi esprime il voto. Da qui nascono diciamo una serie di tematiche tra queste lasciami dire sicuramente c'\u00e8 quella della della partecipazione. La partecipazione \u00e8 una parola con la quale tutti si riempiono la bocca ma di cui tutti hanno paura perch\u00e9 ovviamente quando vanno a votare in 100000 e normalmente andavano a votare in 5000 capisci che cambiano le dinamiche. Ti faccio un racconto che \u00e8 divertente perch\u00e9 diciamo ti fa capire esattamente di cosa sto parlando e qual \u00e8 poi vero merito del voto \u00e8 sicuro non \u00e8 sicuro la frase \u00e8 diciamo \u00e8 abbastanza tronca il voto \u00e8 sicuro che mi rilegge il tema \u00e8 questo era il covid parliamo di marzo aprile aprile 2020 Ovviamente ti lascio immaginare che noi siamo stati travolti dal Covid perch\u00e9 chiaramente le nostre piattaforme sono state proprio prese d'assalto. Ovviamente nessuno di noi si aspettava un'esplosione di questo genere, doveva comunque andare avanti il paese eccetera eccetera. Che cosa accade? Accade che chiaramente per la 1\u00ba volta molti soggetti si affacciano a questo mondo con la paura che ti ho appena espresso. Dico ma io ho 500 iscritti mediamente vengono a votare in 80 100 mi devono passare davanti perch\u00e9 vengono a votare qui quindi suonano al campanello io li saluto e dico vota bene entrano nel voto elettronico sono morto allora un soggetto di cui non dir\u00f2 il nome per evitare di accedere al voto elettronico affitta un capannone industriale praticamente c'hai presente non so se ti ricordi c'erano I centri quelli dove andavi con la macchina direttamente in macchina ti facevano il tampone non ti facevo fatto la stessa cosa arrivava in automobile all'inizio c'era uno che verificava chi eri e ti dava la scheda, ti fermavi a met\u00e0 del capannone, votavi dentro la macchina, mettevi la scheda nell'urna e poi uscivi e te ne andr\u00e0. Chiaramente questo avuto su 500 iscritti 36 votanti. Ora \u00e8 evidente che 36 votanti gi\u00e0 basta che fai votare tua madre tuo padre e un paio d'amici e la votazione \u00e8 chiusa. I colleghi che hanno avuto ordini molto pi\u00f9 piccoli con tanta gente che stava a casa non aveva niente da fare perch\u00e9 c'era il covid sono stati eletti con percentuali che vanno sopra il 70, l'ottanta per 100. Ci sono stati alcuni soggetti che hanno raggiunto il 90 per 100. Ora \u00e8 evidente che il problema di rappresentazione \u00e8 totale. Chi rappresenta un cristiano che \u00e8 stato votato dal 4 per 100 degli aventi diritto? Se stesso perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che rappresenta ecco il tema della votazione elettronica non \u00e8 sulla sicurezza perch\u00e9 \u00e8 tutto verificabile certificabile potrei aprire un tema su chi mi dice che SPID \u00e8 verificato piuttosto chi mi dice che la CIE funziona \u00e8 tutto regolare. Te lo dico perch\u00e9 c'\u00e8 tutta l'umidit\u00e0bilit\u00e0 di questi sistemi \u00e8 possibile verificarli punto per punto perch\u00e9 I soggetti che diciamo fanno parte della filiera sono tanti diversi e quindi chiaramente per poter mettere mano dovresti mettere mano con cio\u00e8 dovrebbe essere proprio un ordire una 1 diciamo un complotto mondiale. E quindi chiaramente il vero tema \u00e8 che dietro questa relazione si nasconde oggettivamente tutt'altro. E in questo paese, credimi Alessandro ho tanta esperienza per dirti che \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 questo che si nasconde che effettivamente la conoscenza del fatto che una chiave asimmetrica a 2048 bit sia pi\u00f9 o meno sicura per la certificazione del voto. Dubito che un rappresentante sindacale entri in questo merito nonostante poi dica che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 sicuro. Certo tra l'altro molto interessante questa cosa, stavo pensando a questo car vaute, non so che potrebbe essere chiamato cos\u00ec, e volevo chiederti perch\u00e9 appunto molto senso questa strategia che chi deve farsi eleggere magari mette in campo a 2\u00ba di se vuole appunto farsi rileggere o meno, E mi dicevi che ci sono altissimi livelli di partecipazione quando il voto \u00e8 online e allora mi chiedo se possa essere una cura all'astensionismo. C'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 appunto adesso con la tecnologia \u00e8 possibile fare questo, cio\u00e8 nel senso \u00e8 possibile magari che 60000000000 di persone si esprimano riguardo una determinata questione, senza tecnologia diciamo che sarebbe proprio impossibile. Quindi in qualche modo rende possibile anche delle trasformazioni del sistema politico in cui viviamo. Cio\u00e8 penso che I 5 Stelle in qualche modo ci hanno un po' provato con questa cosa della democrazia diretta, attraverso la partecipazione sul Rousseau. Mi chiedo se, ecco, sul lungo termine, se pensi che possa essere Cio\u00e8 \u00e8 chiaro, nel senso, le persone stanno sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzando la tecnologia. Questo sia I cittadini sia I politici. Ecco, mi chiedo quale siano anche riflessioni proprio sul magari tra 5 anni, 10 anni. Come pensi possa? Allora ci sono 2 temi anche qua Alessandro. Il tema \u00e8 l'introduzione di aspetti tecnologici su un diritto naturale che \u00e8 quello del voto e l'alfabetizzazione informatica di un paese che per\u00f2 tende ad invecchiare e non a diventare pi\u00f9 giovane. E quindi immagino mia mamma di 83 anni che si trova davanti a uno schermo o alla possibilit\u00e0 di votare in elettronico. Sicuramente l'introduzione del voto elettronico \u00e8 diciamo credibilmente un'introduzione possibile in modo misto cio\u00e8 dove una persona pu\u00f2 decidere se votare in modo tradizionale o da casa \u00e8 sicuramente auspicabile per tutti quelli che invece si devono muovere per poter votare. Parlo degli italiani all'estero fino ad arrivare ai fuori sede e c'\u00e8 tutta la polemica che ogni volta che c'\u00e8 il voto sui rimborsi, sulla possibilit\u00e0 di votare fuori eccetera. Ma anche l\u00ec il tema \u00e8 chi \u00e8 che vota fuori sede? La maggior parte dei voti sono giovani e quindi di persone che o si affacciano per la 1\u00ba volta al voto o che non hanno un riferimento specifico di partito, quindi li fanno paura. \u00c8 evidente che gestire un consolidato \u00e8 pi\u00f9 facile che introdurre una variabile e quindi chiaramente anche qua la vedo difficile nonostante anche io sono d'accordo sul fatto che I tempi sono stramaturi stramaturi per poter introdurre in modo collaterale diciamo aggiuntivo integrativo un sistema di voto elettronico penso agli ammalati Considera che ogni anno voti per delega cio\u00e8 per delega significa che c'\u00e8 un signore che vicino all'altro signore vota per per l'ammalato sono circa 20000 voti a Roma con 3000 fai l'assessore cio\u00e8 voglio dire sono delle condizioni attorno alle quali chiaramente magari con 3000 no 5000 l'assessore 3000 lo fai al municipio Quindi sono sostanzialmente delle condizioni con le quali che oggi ci sono ci sono I mezzi per poterle attuare. In questo caso c'\u00e8 stata una sperimentazione 2 anni fa con la spinta dei 5 stelle l'ultimo governo Conte e poi messa in atto dal governo Draghi su una sperimentazione italiana all'estero che si chiamava io voto se non erro \u00e8 stato fatto un test non pubblicizzato non portato da nessuna parte infatti \u00e8 stato un flop abbiamo speso 1000000 di euro di soldi pubblici non partecipato praticamente nessuno hanno raccolto 8000 voti per 2 collegi all'estero insomma una cosa molto molto piccola tanto per dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 comunque inutile e non aggiunge nulla. Quando se invece fosse stato giustamente pubblicizzato, 2\u00ba me noi facciamo platee molto pi\u00f9 piccole, raccogliamo pi\u00f9 voti. Se c'\u00e8 l'interesse da parte delle persone ad essere realmente votate fanno s\u00ec che si spinga il sistema con cui si vota. La delazione dell'accessibilit\u00e0 al voto, quella prevista dall'articolo 48 della costituzione, che tutti dobbiamo poter votare e quindi non possiamo essere legati al fatto che io abbia o meno la possibilit\u00e0 di acquistare un telefono di un certo tipo o di poter avere una connessione ad internet o anche voglio dire la croce nasce dal fatto che anche gli analfabeti avrebbero dovuto avere la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimere il consenso. Questo si supera perch\u00e9 in molti paesi del mondo il sistema elettronico lo puoi trovare in presenza. E' elettronico ma in presenza. E anche l\u00ec meno contestazione seggi, pi\u00f9 velocit\u00e0 di scrutinio, meno questioni di ogni genere. La tecnologia \u00e8 fatta di numeri e di questioni certe. La democrazia \u00e8 sostanzialmente la gestione dell'incerto, per cui in qualche modo le 2 cose devono trovare un equilibrio che non sempre si trova in questo paese Infatti 1\u00ba c'\u00e8 questa diciamo che magari la politica \u00e8 pi\u00f9 lenta a cambiare rispetto alla tecnologia. Cio\u00e8 diciamo che la tecnologia sta evolvendo in maniera cos\u00ec veloce che effettivamente tutti I settori fanno fatica a rimanere aggiornati, per\u00f2 nel campo della politica in particolare. Una cosa che mi son chiesto diverse volte \u00e8 se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0. Va beh, dipende come evolveranno le cose, per\u00f2 quello che mi son chiesto \u00e8 se sostanzialmente la classe politica attuale pian pianino si riaggiorner\u00e0, nel senso che verranno a conoscenza dei vari mezzi, quindi pu\u00f2 essere il voto elettronico, altre piattaforme legate alla partecipazione o se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0 bisogno di una nuova classe politica che poi avverr\u00e0 in maniera naturale perch\u00e9 anche proprio per il cambio generazionale. Diciamo sono domande che mi son posto, non so se Guarda, Alessandro, io ti dico una cosa: l'et\u00e0 media del Parlamento italiano \u00e8 di 51 anni. E ti dico un'altra cosa: il parlamento italiano nello specifico il Senato della Repubblica Italiana \u00e8 stato uno dei parlamenti tra I primi parlamenti al mondo nel 1000 novecentottantaquattro a introdurre il voto elettronico in aula e lo introdusse una societ\u00e0 che era un progetto dell'Olivetti tanto per far per sottolineare l'ennesima volta quanto stavano avanti I nostri imprenditori dell'epoca e lo hanno introdotto e a tutt'oggi chiaramente il Senato poi il parlamento e tutto il resto utilizza sistemi elettronici di voto. Insomma voglio dire perch\u00e9 quel sistema \u00e8 pi\u00f9 certo di un altro che dovrebbe eleggerti quando l\u00ec magari per un voto decidiamo di aumentare le tasse piuttosto che da dare in guerra? Ci sono delle delle condizioni per le quali quel meccanismo vale per altri non vale. In pi\u00f9 c'\u00e8 un altro fatto: 51 anni \u00e8 un'et\u00e0 media molto alta per il Parlamento. Per il Senato forse si arriva a 60 ed \u00e8 gi\u00e0 una generazione che non c'entra pi\u00f9 nulla con quella attuale. Io sono un cinquantenne, nonostante sia il CEO di un'azienda tecnologica. Io stesso abbiamo introdotto per esempio adesso sistemi di intelligenza artificiale, securizzandoli, securizzandoli, stiamo facendo una serie di prodotti molto interessanti su questo. Per\u00f2 ho un approccio un po' pi\u00f9 cauto, un po' per il tema per I temi che trattiamo, un po' perch\u00e9 chiaramente la mia et\u00e0 \u00e8 questa. Figurati persone che questa roba non l'hanno mai usata. Considera che met\u00e0 dei parlamentari, se fanno scrivere post su Linkedin, se li fanno scrivere su Twitter, non sono loro che scrivono e non so se \u00e8 un male o un bene tra l'altro. Quindi dico che ci sono tutta una serie di temi che per forza diciamo confliggono con questi della della democrazia digitale e dell'avvento non solo della dei sistemi di democrazia digitale ma proprio di dei sistemi in generale. Un esempio per tutti \u00e8 stato lo SPID. Lo SPID praticamente in Italia abbiamo in qualche modo appartato a terzi l'identit\u00e0 digitale di un Paese. Perch\u00e9? Perch\u00e9 all'epoca il parlamento e il ministero che se ne occupava, adesso non mi ricordo se erano interni o addirittura ministero no forse gli interni non ci credeva. Pensava che questa cosa si vabb\u00e8 ma \u00e8 inutile che spendiamo soldi nostri creiamo una cosa che magari muore fino a che siamo arrivati al punto che giustamente gli operatori di SPID allo stato lo danno gratis e hanno cominciato a bussare a battere cassa. Lo stato ovviamente detto piuttosto che pagare degli operatori a questo punto mi faccio CIE e per anni abbiamo in parte pagati l'operatore abbiamo creato una comodit\u00e0 indiscutibile sulla quale siamo stati costretti a fare delle marce indietro e a metterla a pagamento costruendo di corsa un sistema con con la CIE che ancora \u00e8 inferiore in termini numerici allo SPID. Questo meccanismo che \u00e8 abnorme la dice lunga sulla capacit\u00e0 di lettura in prospettiva anche corta non lunga. Ma perch\u00e9? Perch\u00e9, ripeto, se queste sono le medie dell'et\u00e0 delle persone che poi in qualche modo devono prendere decisioni \u00e8 normale che la sensibilit\u00e0 non potr\u00e0 essere quella di una persona che invece \u00e8 nata, cresciuta e in questi ambiti digitali diciamo Pasqua tutti I giorni. Certo. E domanda che non c'entra fino a che ora abbiamo? 7 minuti ancora. Ok perfetto. Allora ho ancora 2 domande giusto cos\u00ec. La 1\u00ba domanda: 1\u00ba dicevi nuove funzionalit\u00e0 anche con l'AI, in questo caso mi era venuto in mente quelle metriche di cui parlavi 1\u00ba legate non so a quanti interventi magari fatto un politico, non so, E quindi penso che piani magari anche un po' pi\u00f9 qualitativi. Quindi non so se uno propone delle idee, se uno non lo so, quali sono le funzionalit\u00e0 magari con le high che stavate pensando o altre funzionalit\u00e0 che tu vorresti lavorare? Ok, le AI la stiamo introducendo in ambito sostanzialmente di governance 1\u00ba di tutto. Quindi parliamo andiamo dalla ricerca semantica per grandi archivi di tanti verbali, verbalizzazioni, trascrizioni. Spesso nei CDA, nei consigli, ai 20 anni di trascrizioni non puoi sapere il pensiero di Giovanni di Sotto, di Alessandro Oppo. Faccio una ricerca semantica dicendo: ma come la pensava il consigliere Oppo relativamente al ponte sullo stretto? E l\u00ec ti d\u00e0 una sintesi fa una ricerca su una grande quantit\u00e0 di dati e ti caccia fuori un output diciamo sintetico che avrebbe invece avuto necessit\u00e0 di una ricerca molto pi\u00f9 complessa con molto pi\u00f9 tempo a disposizione fino ad arrivare a sintetizzare direttamente il sistema e il verbale, quindi a fare una sintesi ragionata e strutturata della riunione dell'assemblea del consiglio e quindi fare un preverbale dove gi\u00e0 ci sono le sintesi e I fatti salienti che poi verranno messi in conservazione fino ad arrivare anche alla gestione di alcuni elementi quali gli elementi legati al le determine o ai a quelli che sono diciamo I documenti finali di queste decisioni. Per cui in quel caso ti dice se I riferimenti legali possono pi\u00f9 o meno essere giusti, se quella cosa \u00e8 attuabile ed \u00e8 attuabile 2\u00ba determinate indicazioni. Insomma l'intelligenza artificiale aiuta a rendere da un lato a velocizzare ottimizzare ancora di pi\u00f9 il I processi e da un altro chiaramente aiuta a renderli pi\u00f9 conformi, quindi ad aiutare le persone a standardizzarle e a renderli conformi alle norme, ai regolamenti e anche alle possibilit\u00e0 che uno pu\u00f2 mettere in campo per cui questo \u00e8 un ambito di applicazione in pi\u00f9 noi stiamo aggiungendo oltre che questo e qua ritorna la natura di Multicast che \u00e8 legata sostanzialmente a tutti a tutta la questione che riguarda privacy e protezione non lo facciamo in modo condiviso cio\u00e8 non usiamo strumenti diciamo terzi di condivisione, ma sono proprio degli oggetti fisici che il cliente in casa e dentro al quale sono storicizzate non solo tutte le parti che riguardano I dati da cui poi si evincono tutte le questioni, ma soprattutto la parte di intelligenza addestrata perch\u00e9 dopo tanti anni quella parte addestrata diventa un patrimonio del soggetto e non \u00e8 condivisa con nessuno, non \u00e8 condivisibile con nessuno e soprattutto se la spegni e la stacchi dalla rete e te la metti in una borsa te la porti a casa e quindi proprio fisicamente non \u00e8 condivisa questo chiaramente \u00e8 un meccanismo diciamo per un tipo di clientela alta Enterprise sostanzialmente ma che garantisce il massimo della privacy perch\u00e9 poi gli argomenti che magari trattano un consiglio di amministrazione sono argomenti di grandissima delicatezza e che se vuoi introdurre alcuni elementi di questi non puoi non sapere dove stanno, qual \u00e8 il modello che lo elabora e cosa quel modello imparer\u00e0 da quello che hai messo tu. S\u00ec assolutamente comprendo e l'ultima domanda cos\u00ec in un minuto se \u00e8 un messaggio diciamo per le altre persone che stanno lavorando su quest'ambito che pu\u00f2 essere partecipazione a voto elettronico all'estero in Italia? Allora guarda io ti do 2 messaggi: 1\u00ba di continuare, di stimolarci a vicenda introducendo ogni volta un elemento in pi\u00f9 di innovazione, ampliando il mercato, cercando in qualche modo di portare dentro il mercato ambiti che ancora diciamo sono sono piccoli. Considera che il mercato della della votazione elettronica \u00e8 un mercato in crescita che sta nascendo da poco e quindi \u00e8 tutto un po' da fare. Quindi dico credeteci portate innovazione, cercate di non fiutare l'affare ma di introdurre un elemento di innovazione. Questo fa s\u00ec che cresce chi entra e cresce il mercato a vantaggio di tutti, non solo. Quindi di immettere qualit\u00e0 all'interno e professionalit\u00e0 all'interno di questo di questo mondo. Ai politici dico di cominciare a pensare di regolamentarlo. Quando si parla di voto certificato, chi dice voto certificato mente perch\u00e9 per certificare qualcosa ho bisogno di una regola che mi consenta di verificare se quella cosa \u00e8 certificata e di un meccanismo per poterlo fare. Non c'\u00e8 nessuna legge che oggi regolamenti, normalizzi e renda cogente I processi di un voto elettronico, di un'assemblea elettronica e cos\u00ec via. E' una deroga a dei codici civili e a dei regolamenti che nella migliore delle ipotesi si rifanno a 30 anni fa. Nella migliore ce ne sono alcuni che addirittura parliamo di reggi decreti. Quindi ovviamente il legislatore 2\u00ba me oggi per forza deve mettere in campo delle normative chiare e che in qualche modo regolarizzino il discorso di cui dico 1\u00ba, cio\u00e8 che faccia s\u00ec che anche I clienti non imbattano in personaggi che insomma facevano fino a ieri cose che non c'entrano nulla e che non rendono nemmeno riconoscibile il risultato di un moto elettronico. Purtroppo questo \u00e8 oggi un buon far west che 2\u00ba me \u00e8 l'appello che faccio gi\u00e0 da qualche anno alla nostra classe politica di mettere mano magari anche tra noi associandoci facendo delle proposte legislative ma mettere mano a questo campo perch\u00e9 considera Alessandro che ormai che io sappia su 100 consigli d'amministrazione che vanno da non lo so quello di Leonardo al all'ASL di Benevento I 3 quarti sono online quindi chiaramente avere una norma che dice lo puoi fare online se cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 fatto in quest'altro modo, in quest'altro modo, 2\u00ba me \u00e8 la cosa pi\u00f9 auspicabile che si possa desiderare. 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"speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.3254103}, {"word": "giovanni", "start": 2820.099, "end": 2820.599, "confidence": 0.66918945, "punctuated_word": "Giovanni.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.3254103}], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": {"transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Benvenuti e benvenute in questa 2\u00ba puntata del Democracy Innovator Podcast in italiano, e oggi avremo come ospite Giovanni Di Sotto e CEO e fondatore di Multicast. Grazie. Benvenuto. Grazie.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie.\n\nSpeaker 0: 1\u00ba ti chiedevo appunto cos'\u00e8 Multicast, di cosa si occupa, quali sono le aree.\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora, Multicast intanto vi presento. Sono l'ingegner Giovanni Disotto, fondatore di Multicast nel lontano 2004. Multicast \u00e8 un'azienda che si occupava all'inizio di crittografia digitale in ambito delle telecomunicazioni negli anni, azienda che compier\u00e0 a fine mese 22 anni e si occupava di crittografazione in ambito di telecomunicazione e piano piano si \u00e8 spostata dall'ambito crittografico analogico digitale a quello completamente digitale poi al web. E poi nel 2014 attraverso un partner \u00e8 entrato nel mondo del del voto elettronico e della sicurizzazione dei dei sistemi di votazione elettronica. 1\u00ba quelli filari poi sono diventati sistemi diciamo smart comunque wireless e poi piano piano sono passati poi sul web e sono diventati quelli che in generale oggi utilizziamo che sono dei sistemi completamente o in sas o telematici creando una linea di prodotto nel 2014 che si chiama Skybot e che ad oggi nell'arco di circa 10 11 anni di lavoro fatto s\u00ec che sono transitate circa 5000000 e mezzo di codici fiscale, quindi di aventi diritto a vario titolo e in varie per varie diciamo a vario titolo sulle nostre piattaforme che sono diciamo varie perch\u00e9 non abbiamo un solo sistema abbiamo un po' una sorta di pacchetto molto simile come per semplificare al pacchetto office dove ci sono una serie di prodotti e di servizi che coprono una filiera intera di un processo democratico che va dall'elezione dei componenti di un determinato organo fino alla gestione dell'organo completa che va da quando si riuniscono a quando si distribuiscono I documenti a quando questi organi votano e generano determinate e qualunque documento esecutivo fino alla rendicontazione, la trascrizione, la verbalizzazione e la conservazione sostitutiva a norma 2\u00ba quelle che sono le linee guida e le leggi del codice dell'amministrazione digitale.\n\nQuindi copriamo con pezzi che sono sia autonomi e sia integrati tra loro, esattamente come fa Office con Word piuttosto che con Excel e ed altro, tutto l'intero ciclo di un processo decisionale.\n\nSpeaker 0: Invece 1\u00ba appunto che I settori sono principalmente 2: 1 appunto governance, quindi efficienza, trasparenza e poi appunto ambiti pi\u00f9 diciamo elettivi legati a elezioni. S\u00ec,\n\nSpeaker 1: diciamo che I 2 ambiti principali sono quelli che hai detto. Quello della governance \u00e8 quello classico di un consiglio comunale ne prendo uno a caso ma un CDA, un comitato nazionale dei delegati, un comitato di indirizzo generale, cio\u00e8 sono degli organi collegiali che si riuniscono attorno a un'assemblea e che in qualche modo deliberano una serie di decisioni. Questo processo di governance del Consiglio noi lo gestiamo al 100 per 100 perch\u00e9 da quando le segreterie decidono e calendarizzano la riunione, a quando creano l'ordine del giorno, a quando popolano l'ordine del giorno della documentazione necessaria che va dalle dai promemoria immagino CDA con dei promemoria piuttosto che delle delibere in bozza che vengono portate in un consiglio comunale quindi lo svolgimento del consiglio comunale con la gestione di tutto quello che \u00e8 il processo e la liturgia assembleare che va dal calcolo del quorum costitutivo ai vari gestione degli interventi, la gestione diciamo tutto quello che accade dentro il consiglio comunale viene gestito, registrato, documentato e messo in una condizione per la quale dal punto di vista delle segreterie sar\u00e0 molto pi\u00f9 facile e pi\u00f9 veloce ed efficiente gestirlo dal punto di vista del pubblico sar\u00e0 pi\u00f9 trasparente e facile poterne fruire e poter interagire con quello che \u00e8 il processo di quell'organo se quell'organo \u00e8 un organo pubblico penso per esempio al consiglio comunale il sistema consente alla fine del consiglio durante quindi \u00e8 possibile partecipare nel senso di assistere al consiglio tramite lo streaming classico.\n\nPoi la piattaforma raccoglie tutta una serie di dati che servono anche per in qualche modo dare una contezza di performance politica. Ad esempio, il consigliere Mario Rossi in area partito x quante volte \u00e8 intervenuto, a quanti consigli comunali assistito, quante proposte di legge apportato, quante delibere, eccetera eccetera eccetera. Il cittadino in questo modo pu\u00f2 capire se il consigliere che votato effettivamente svolto il suo lavoro e non solo in modo demagogico puoi valutare se effettivamente lo stipendio da pubblico amministratore se l'\u00e8 guadagnato o invece fatto solo la presenza. Mentre per quanto riguarda l'aspetto pi\u00f9 diretto, quello di elezione, dell'aspetto elettivo, noi abbiamo una piattaforma Enterprise molto molto grande. Tra l'altro \u00e8 stata una delle piattaforme che ancora in Italia detiene il record di numero di aventi diritto in un'unica tornata elettorale.\n\nAbbiamo gestito il referendum sulla legge sulla lingua primaria da studiare nelle nella provincia di Bolzano e hanno partecipato circa 510000 aventi diritto. E' stata una prova molto interessante perch\u00e9 tra le tematiche che abbiamo dovuto affrontare in quello specifico ambito \u00e8 stata quella di attivare un riconoscimento per I minorenni. Quindi per coloro che non hanno all'epoca, perch\u00e9 parliamo del 2022, non avevano all'epoca la possibilit\u00e0 di accedere attraverso SPID o altri tipi di riconoscimento digitale. Quindi c'era un processo che avevamo messo in piedi insieme alla societ\u00e0 che gestisce la parte informatica della provincia autonoma di Bolzano, un sistema di riconoscimento anche per I ragazzi fino a 16 anni. Quindi portato poi alla fine al voto circa il 40 per 100 dell'intera vendita diritto.\n\nTi garantisco Alessandro che per un tipo di diciamo un tipo di votazione del genere \u00e8 una percentuale altissima, altissima. Senza che te lo spoilero ma era abbastanza banale, non \u00e8 stato l'italiano la lingua 1\u00ba scelta nelle scuole della provincia di Bolzano a questo poi chiaramente si seguono hanno seguito moltissimi altri enti diciamo sia 1\u00ba che dopo gestiamo votazioni soprattutto per enti diciamo di diritto pubblico private e diritto pubblico penso per esempio alle casse alle casse previdenziali private. Penso ad esempio a tutti gli ordini professionali, ai consigli e le federazioni degli ordini professionali, a grandi assemblee. Un altro diciamo un'altra nostra peculiarit\u00e0. Siamo stati scelti in sostituzione della piattaforma Rousseau dal movimento 5 stelle che sostituito una piattaforma che era integrante come soggetto politico a un arbitro 3\u00ba che invece non non un ruolo di nessun genere politico e quindi rifacendo comunque rimanere nello statuto l'esigenza di consultare la base elettorale con una certa frequenza, per\u00f2 utilizzando un arbitro e non un giocatore di parte.\n\nQuesta \u00e8 stata la nostra venuta in quel specifico ambito \u00e8 stato \u00e8 stata questo cambio di passo che non \u00e8 solo un cambio tecnologico ma \u00e8 proprio un cambio diciamo di merito del dell'accesso a questo movimento.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mi stavo chiedendo nel corso del tempo quanto \u00e8 cambiata la piattaforma? Che appunto mi dice che c'\u00e8 questa suite di diversi prodotti, immagino alcuni siano arrivati dopo magari.\n\nSpeaker 1: La piattaforma \u00e8 cambiata praticamente tantissimo e cambia praticamente tutti I giorni. I motivi per cui cambia sono sostanzialmente 3: il 1\u00ba motivo \u00e8 un'esigenza specifica di sicurezza, perch\u00e9 ovviamente capisci bene che tutto il nostro lavoro \u00e8 permeato e si basa su quelli che sono I pi\u00f9 alti protocolli di sicurezza possibile. Perch\u00e9 basta poco per sospendere un'elezione piuttosto che invalidarla, piuttosto che in qualche modo trovare un meccanismo per truccarla no, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto veramente troppo complesso e difficile, ma sicuramente per creare attorno a un determinato processo elettorale quel fumus, perch\u00e9 poi per 10 minuti si \u00e8 spenta, non si \u00e8 accesa, non \u00e8 stato quindi mantenere le performance e I livelli di sicurezza che consentono all'elettore che va a votare di andare liscio come l'olio e a noi chiaramente di prevenire attacchi di ogni genere fa s\u00ec che la piattaforma cambi ogni 3 mesi. Ci sono vari aggiornamenti. Un altro ambito in cui \u00e8 stata cambiata tanto \u00e8 nell'usabilit\u00e0 ovviamente sono cambiati gli strumenti nel 2014 noi abbiamo fatto la 1\u00ba votazione online nel 2016 circa c'erano il browser, c'era internet explorer, c'erano s\u00ec qualche browser ma si votava sostanzialmente con un pc al limite con un tablet.\n\nAdesso \u00e8 il contrario, quindi adesso voti direttamente col telefonino e questo fatto s\u00ec che cambiassero anche gli aspetti, e vengo al 3\u00ba punto, di identificazione. Noi siamo stati sempre, per nostra natura, abbiamo sempre introdotto anche quando ne era obbligatorio, ne anzi era un po' visto anche male. Abbiamo introdotto sempre almeno un 2\u00ba fattore di autenticazione all'interno di queste delle nostre piattaforme. Considera che l'elemento critico delle piattaforme informatiche legate al voto o comunque in generale quello dell'autenticazione e quindi nel 2015 diciamo lo SPID era quasi un esperimento e anzi forse se non ricordo male era proprio in fase sperimentale. Quindi noi ci siamo dovuti inventare qualcosa.\n\nConsidera che molte di queste delle lezioni che facciamo faccio un esempio le elezioni che facciamo per inarcassa dico la 1\u00ba che mi viene in mente perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un cliente storico che \u00e8 la cassa di previdenza degli architetti e degli ingegneri \u00e8 una cassa che gestisce quelli che eleggono e che poi andranno a comporre 1\u00ba il comitato nazionale delegati successivamente il CDA gestisce 11 13000000000 di bilanci l'anno quindi \u00e8 chiaro che il tema della sicurezza, il tema dell'identificazione, della certezza di quello che voti \u00e8 centrale e questo lo puoi fare solo se la tiene aggiornata e segui quelle che sono poi diciamo l'approccio all'usabilit\u00e0 che durante il percorso gli utenti hanno. L'OTP per esempio l'abbiamo sostituito con un sistema che \u00e8 in automatico lo legge il telefono per cui riconosce il telefono insomma ci sono una serie di accorgimenti che abbiamo introdotto soprattutto per semplificare poi considera Alessandro che il voto \u00e8 come avere per l'utente come avere una cartuccia e con quella che unica cartuccia devi colpire l'uccello perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che c'\u00e8 un 2\u00ba no aspetta la rifacciamo proviamo quindi quell'utente che quella piattaforma non l' mai vista \u00c8 la 1\u00ba volta che vede quella cosa, quindi deve essere estremamente intuitiva, estremamente semplice, ma nonostante questo deve essere anche estremamente sicura e quindi certificate il voto che \u00e8 stato espresso.\n\nQuesta \u00e8 la pi\u00f9 grossa difficolt\u00e0 che noi abbiamo difficolt\u00e0, diciamo, il pi\u00f9 grosso impegno che mettiamo durante questi 11 anni di esperienza per far s\u00ec che le persone facilmente abbiano accesso e possano esprimere il proprio voto.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo la sicurezza \u00e8 fondamentale in questo caso. So che ci sono anche molte persone contrarie diciamo a questa alla cosa del voto online e che tipo di risposta daresti riguardo non so magari\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora bella domanda dunque c'ho un'ora no? Allora velocissimamente Sono abbastanza non ho I capelli ma se ce li avessi ce li avrei avuti bianchi per cui sono abbastanza anziano da poter dire che il voto elettronico da non poter dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 la panacea di tutti I mali quindi si risolve ogni questione con il voto elettronico d'altro canto le problematiche del voto non elettronico quello analogico le conosciamo da tantissimi anni. Il tema \u00e8 legato a 2 aspetti fondamentali: il 1\u00ba \u00e8 che chi parla di solito non conosce esattamente la materia di cui chi parla e dice che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 certo, non \u00e8 sicuro, eccetera \u00e8 di solito colui il quale poi effettivamente non conosce molto addentro la materia. L'altro aspetto \u00e8 la rieleggibilit\u00e0. Considera che il voto elettronico allora ti faccio faccio un piccolo preambolo ogni anno in Italia hanno diritto ad esprimere un voto circa 21000000 di persone.\n\n21000001 dice ventunoomilioni perch\u00e9 se stai in un condominio almeno una volta devi fare devi votare il bilancio, poi non lo fai, ma il diritto al voto ce l'hai. Hai anche un figlio a scuola? Almeno una volta all'anno devi votare di rappresentante di classe e ogni 3 anni quello di istituto. Fai parte di un'azienda ogni 3 anni ci sono le rls, le rs1, le rsa fai parte di un ordine professionale ogni 4 c'\u00e8 il rinnovo dei consigli direttivi e potrei proseguire per cooperative per tutto quello che fa. Se fai la somma di tutta questa giostra intorno ai 20 21000000 di aventi diritto al voto che potrebbero esprimere una volta l'anno un voto.\n\nChiaramente la bellezza di tutta questa cosa \u00e8 che quelli che acquistano I servizi di votazione non sono quelli che votano ma sono I votati, \u00e8 l'elettorato passivo. Quindi il fruitore del voto non \u00e8 colui il quale pu\u00f2 scegliere lo strumento con cui farlo. E' come se tu per andare a casa 6 tu il guidatore ma ahim\u00e8 la macchina la decide il datore di lavoro. Quindi o con cosa ci va e lo decide il datore di lavoro, il quale chiaramente un interesse diverso rispetto a quello di chi esprime il voto. Da qui nascono diciamo una serie di tematiche tra queste lasciami dire sicuramente c'\u00e8 quella della della partecipazione.\n\nLa partecipazione \u00e8 una parola con la quale tutti si riempiono la bocca ma di cui tutti hanno paura perch\u00e9 ovviamente quando vanno a votare in 100000 e normalmente andavano a votare in 5000 capisci che cambiano le dinamiche. Ti faccio un racconto che \u00e8 divertente perch\u00e9 diciamo ti fa capire esattamente di cosa sto parlando e qual \u00e8 poi vero merito del voto \u00e8 sicuro non \u00e8 sicuro la frase \u00e8 diciamo \u00e8 abbastanza tronca il voto \u00e8 sicuro che mi rilegge il tema \u00e8 questo era il covid parliamo di marzo aprile aprile 2020 Ovviamente ti lascio immaginare che noi siamo stati travolti dal Covid perch\u00e9 chiaramente le nostre piattaforme sono state proprio prese d'assalto. Ovviamente nessuno di noi si aspettava un'esplosione di questo genere, doveva comunque andare avanti il paese eccetera eccetera. Che cosa accade? Accade che chiaramente per la 1\u00ba volta molti soggetti si affacciano a questo mondo con la paura che ti ho appena espresso.\n\nDico ma io ho 500 iscritti mediamente vengono a votare in 80 100 mi devono passare davanti perch\u00e9 vengono a votare qui quindi suonano al campanello io li saluto e dico vota bene entrano nel voto elettronico sono morto allora un soggetto di cui non dir\u00f2 il nome per evitare di accedere al voto elettronico affitta un capannone industriale praticamente c'hai presente non so se ti ricordi c'erano I centri quelli dove andavi con la macchina direttamente in macchina ti facevano il tampone non ti facevo fatto la stessa cosa arrivava in automobile all'inizio c'era uno che verificava chi eri e ti dava la scheda, ti fermavi a met\u00e0 del capannone, votavi dentro la macchina, mettevi la scheda nell'urna e poi uscivi e te ne andr\u00e0. Chiaramente questo avuto su 500 iscritti 36 votanti. Ora \u00e8 evidente che 36 votanti gi\u00e0 basta che fai votare tua madre tuo padre e un paio d'amici e la votazione \u00e8 chiusa. I colleghi che hanno avuto ordini molto pi\u00f9 piccoli con tanta gente che stava a casa non aveva niente da fare perch\u00e9 c'era il covid sono stati eletti con percentuali che vanno sopra il 70, l'ottanta per 100. Ci sono stati alcuni soggetti che hanno raggiunto il 90 per 100.\n\nOra \u00e8 evidente che il problema di rappresentazione \u00e8 totale. Chi rappresenta un cristiano che \u00e8 stato votato dal 4 per 100 degli aventi diritto? Se stesso perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che rappresenta ecco il tema della votazione elettronica non \u00e8 sulla sicurezza perch\u00e9 \u00e8 tutto verificabile certificabile potrei aprire un tema su chi mi dice che SPID \u00e8 verificato piuttosto chi mi dice che la CIE funziona \u00e8 tutto regolare. Te lo dico perch\u00e9 c'\u00e8 tutta l'umidit\u00e0bilit\u00e0 di questi sistemi \u00e8 possibile verificarli punto per punto perch\u00e9 I soggetti che diciamo fanno parte della filiera sono tanti diversi e quindi chiaramente per poter mettere mano dovresti mettere mano con cio\u00e8 dovrebbe essere proprio un ordire una 1 diciamo un complotto mondiale. E quindi chiaramente il vero tema \u00e8 che dietro questa relazione si nasconde oggettivamente tutt'altro.\n\nE in questo paese, credimi Alessandro ho tanta esperienza per dirti che \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 questo che si nasconde che effettivamente la conoscenza del fatto che una chiave asimmetrica a 2048 bit sia pi\u00f9 o meno sicura per la certificazione del voto. Dubito che un rappresentante sindacale entri in questo merito nonostante poi dica che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 sicuro.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo tra l'altro molto interessante questa cosa, stavo pensando a questo car vaute, non so che potrebbe essere chiamato cos\u00ec, e volevo chiederti perch\u00e9 appunto molto senso questa strategia che chi deve farsi eleggere magari mette in campo a 2\u00ba di se vuole appunto farsi rileggere o meno, E mi dicevi che ci sono altissimi livelli di partecipazione quando il voto \u00e8 online e allora mi chiedo se possa essere una cura all'astensionismo. C'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 appunto adesso con la tecnologia \u00e8 possibile fare questo, cio\u00e8 nel senso \u00e8 possibile magari che 60000000000 di persone si esprimano riguardo una determinata questione, senza tecnologia diciamo che sarebbe proprio impossibile. Quindi in qualche modo rende possibile anche delle trasformazioni del sistema politico in cui viviamo. Cio\u00e8 penso che I 5 Stelle in qualche modo ci hanno un po' provato con questa cosa della democrazia diretta, attraverso la partecipazione sul Rousseau. Mi chiedo se, ecco, sul lungo termine, se pensi che possa essere Cio\u00e8 \u00e8 chiaro, nel senso, le persone stanno sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzando la tecnologia.\n\nQuesto sia I cittadini sia I politici. Ecco, mi chiedo quale siano anche riflessioni proprio sul magari tra 5 anni, 10 anni. Come pensi possa?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora ci sono 2 temi anche qua Alessandro. Il tema \u00e8 l'introduzione di aspetti tecnologici su un diritto naturale che \u00e8 quello del voto e l'alfabetizzazione informatica di un paese che per\u00f2 tende ad invecchiare e non a diventare pi\u00f9 giovane. E quindi immagino mia mamma di 83 anni che si trova davanti a uno schermo o alla possibilit\u00e0 di votare in elettronico. Sicuramente l'introduzione del voto elettronico \u00e8 diciamo credibilmente un'introduzione possibile in modo misto cio\u00e8 dove una persona pu\u00f2 decidere se votare in modo tradizionale o da casa \u00e8 sicuramente auspicabile per tutti quelli che invece si devono muovere per poter votare. Parlo degli italiani all'estero fino ad arrivare ai fuori sede e c'\u00e8 tutta la polemica che ogni volta che c'\u00e8 il voto sui rimborsi, sulla possibilit\u00e0 di votare fuori eccetera.\n\nMa anche l\u00ec il tema \u00e8 chi \u00e8 che vota fuori sede? La maggior parte dei voti sono giovani e quindi di persone che o si affacciano per la 1\u00ba volta al voto o che non hanno un riferimento specifico di partito, quindi li fanno paura. \u00c8 evidente che gestire un consolidato \u00e8 pi\u00f9 facile che introdurre una variabile e quindi chiaramente anche qua la vedo difficile nonostante anche io sono d'accordo sul fatto che I tempi sono stramaturi stramaturi per poter introdurre in modo collaterale diciamo aggiuntivo integrativo un sistema di voto elettronico penso agli ammalati Considera che ogni anno voti per delega cio\u00e8 per delega significa che c'\u00e8 un signore che vicino all'altro signore vota per per l'ammalato sono circa 20000 voti a Roma con 3000 fai l'assessore cio\u00e8 voglio dire sono delle condizioni attorno alle quali chiaramente magari con 3000 no 5000 l'assessore 3000 lo fai al municipio Quindi sono sostanzialmente delle condizioni con le quali che oggi ci sono ci sono I mezzi per poterle attuare. In questo caso c'\u00e8 stata una sperimentazione 2 anni fa con la spinta dei 5 stelle l'ultimo governo Conte e poi messa in atto dal governo Draghi su una sperimentazione italiana all'estero che si chiamava io voto se non erro \u00e8 stato fatto un test non pubblicizzato non portato da nessuna parte infatti \u00e8 stato un flop abbiamo speso 1000000 di euro di soldi pubblici non partecipato praticamente nessuno hanno raccolto 8000 voti per 2 collegi all'estero insomma una cosa molto molto piccola tanto per dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 comunque inutile e non aggiunge nulla.\n\nQuando se invece fosse stato giustamente pubblicizzato, 2\u00ba me noi facciamo platee molto pi\u00f9 piccole, raccogliamo pi\u00f9 voti. Se c'\u00e8 l'interesse da parte delle persone ad essere realmente votate fanno s\u00ec che si spinga il sistema con cui si vota. La delazione dell'accessibilit\u00e0 al voto, quella prevista dall'articolo 48 della costituzione, che tutti dobbiamo poter votare e quindi non possiamo essere legati al fatto che io abbia o meno la possibilit\u00e0 di acquistare un telefono di un certo tipo o di poter avere una connessione ad internet o anche voglio dire la croce nasce dal fatto che anche gli analfabeti avrebbero dovuto avere la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimere il consenso. Questo si supera perch\u00e9 in molti paesi del mondo il sistema elettronico lo puoi trovare in presenza. E' elettronico ma in presenza.\n\nE anche l\u00ec meno contestazione seggi, pi\u00f9 velocit\u00e0 di scrutinio, meno questioni di ogni genere. La tecnologia \u00e8 fatta di numeri e di questioni certe. La democrazia \u00e8 sostanzialmente la gestione dell'incerto, per cui in qualche modo le 2 cose devono trovare un equilibrio che non sempre si trova in questo paese\n\nSpeaker 0: Infatti 1\u00ba c'\u00e8 questa diciamo che magari la politica \u00e8 pi\u00f9 lenta a cambiare rispetto alla tecnologia. Cio\u00e8 diciamo che la tecnologia sta evolvendo in maniera cos\u00ec veloce che effettivamente tutti I settori fanno fatica a rimanere aggiornati, per\u00f2 nel campo della politica in particolare. Una cosa che mi son chiesto diverse volte \u00e8 se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0. Va beh, dipende come evolveranno le cose, per\u00f2 quello che mi son chiesto \u00e8 se sostanzialmente la classe politica attuale pian pianino si riaggiorner\u00e0, nel senso che verranno a conoscenza dei vari mezzi, quindi pu\u00f2 essere il voto elettronico, altre piattaforme legate alla partecipazione o se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0 bisogno di una nuova classe politica che poi avverr\u00e0 in maniera naturale perch\u00e9 anche proprio per il cambio generazionale. Diciamo sono domande che mi son posto, non so se\n\nSpeaker 1: Guarda, Alessandro, io ti dico una cosa: l'et\u00e0 media del Parlamento italiano \u00e8 di 51 anni. E ti dico un'altra cosa: il parlamento italiano nello specifico il Senato della Repubblica Italiana \u00e8 stato uno dei parlamenti tra I primi parlamenti al mondo nel 1000 novecentottantaquattro a introdurre il voto elettronico in aula e lo introdusse una societ\u00e0 che era un progetto dell'Olivetti tanto per far per sottolineare l'ennesima volta quanto stavano avanti I nostri imprenditori dell'epoca e lo hanno introdotto e a tutt'oggi chiaramente il Senato poi il parlamento e tutto il resto utilizza sistemi elettronici di voto. Insomma voglio dire perch\u00e9 quel sistema \u00e8 pi\u00f9 certo di un altro che dovrebbe eleggerti quando l\u00ec magari per un voto decidiamo di aumentare le tasse piuttosto che da dare in guerra? Ci sono delle delle condizioni per le quali quel meccanismo vale per altri non vale. In pi\u00f9 c'\u00e8 un altro fatto: 51 anni \u00e8 un'et\u00e0 media molto alta per il Parlamento.\n\nPer il Senato forse si arriva a 60 ed \u00e8 gi\u00e0 una generazione che non c'entra pi\u00f9 nulla con quella attuale. Io sono un cinquantenne, nonostante sia il CEO di un'azienda tecnologica. Io stesso abbiamo introdotto per esempio adesso sistemi di intelligenza artificiale, securizzandoli, securizzandoli, stiamo facendo una serie di prodotti molto interessanti su questo. Per\u00f2 ho un approccio un po' pi\u00f9 cauto, un po' per il tema per I temi che trattiamo, un po' perch\u00e9 chiaramente la mia et\u00e0 \u00e8 questa. Figurati persone che questa roba non l'hanno mai usata.\n\nConsidera che met\u00e0 dei parlamentari, se fanno scrivere post su Linkedin, se li fanno scrivere su Twitter, non sono loro che scrivono e non so se \u00e8 un male o un bene tra l'altro. Quindi dico che ci sono tutta una serie di temi che per forza diciamo confliggono con questi della della democrazia digitale e dell'avvento non solo della dei sistemi di democrazia digitale ma proprio di dei sistemi in generale. Un esempio per tutti \u00e8 stato lo SPID. Lo SPID praticamente in Italia abbiamo in qualche modo appartato a terzi l'identit\u00e0 digitale di un Paese. Perch\u00e9?\n\nPerch\u00e9 all'epoca il parlamento e il ministero che se ne occupava, adesso non mi ricordo se erano interni o addirittura ministero no forse gli interni non ci credeva. Pensava che questa cosa si vabb\u00e8 ma \u00e8 inutile che spendiamo soldi nostri creiamo una cosa che magari muore fino a che siamo arrivati al punto che giustamente gli operatori di SPID allo stato lo danno gratis e hanno cominciato a bussare a battere cassa. Lo stato ovviamente detto piuttosto che pagare degli operatori a questo punto mi faccio CIE e per anni abbiamo in parte pagati l'operatore abbiamo creato una comodit\u00e0 indiscutibile sulla quale siamo stati costretti a fare delle marce indietro e a metterla a pagamento costruendo di corsa un sistema con con la CIE che ancora \u00e8 inferiore in termini numerici allo SPID. Questo meccanismo che \u00e8 abnorme la dice lunga sulla capacit\u00e0 di lettura in prospettiva anche corta non lunga. Ma perch\u00e9?\n\nPerch\u00e9, ripeto, se queste sono le medie dell'et\u00e0 delle persone che poi in qualche modo devono prendere decisioni \u00e8 normale che la sensibilit\u00e0 non potr\u00e0 essere quella di una persona che invece \u00e8 nata, cresciuta e in questi ambiti digitali diciamo Pasqua tutti I giorni.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo. E domanda che non c'entra fino a che ora abbiamo?\n\nSpeaker 1: 7 minuti ancora.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ok perfetto. Allora ho ancora 2 domande giusto cos\u00ec. La 1\u00ba domanda: 1\u00ba dicevi nuove funzionalit\u00e0 anche con l'AI, in questo caso mi era venuto in mente quelle metriche di cui parlavi 1\u00ba legate non so a quanti interventi magari fatto un politico, non so, E quindi penso che piani magari anche un po' pi\u00f9 qualitativi. Quindi non so se uno propone delle idee, se uno non lo so, quali sono le funzionalit\u00e0 magari con le high che stavate pensando o altre funzionalit\u00e0 che tu vorresti lavorare?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ok, le AI la stiamo introducendo in ambito sostanzialmente di governance 1\u00ba di tutto. Quindi parliamo andiamo dalla ricerca semantica per grandi archivi di tanti verbali, verbalizzazioni, trascrizioni. Spesso nei CDA, nei consigli, ai 20 anni di trascrizioni non puoi sapere il pensiero di Giovanni di Sotto, di Alessandro Oppo. Faccio una ricerca semantica dicendo: ma come la pensava il consigliere Oppo relativamente al ponte sullo stretto? E l\u00ec ti d\u00e0 una sintesi fa una ricerca su una grande quantit\u00e0 di dati e ti caccia fuori un output diciamo sintetico che avrebbe invece avuto necessit\u00e0 di una ricerca molto pi\u00f9 complessa con molto pi\u00f9 tempo a disposizione fino ad arrivare a sintetizzare direttamente il sistema e il verbale, quindi a fare una sintesi ragionata e strutturata della riunione dell'assemblea del consiglio e quindi fare un preverbale dove gi\u00e0 ci sono le sintesi e I fatti salienti che poi verranno messi in conservazione fino ad arrivare anche alla gestione di alcuni elementi quali gli elementi legati al le determine o ai a quelli che sono diciamo I documenti finali di queste decisioni.\n\nPer cui in quel caso ti dice se I riferimenti legali possono pi\u00f9 o meno essere giusti, se quella cosa \u00e8 attuabile ed \u00e8 attuabile 2\u00ba determinate indicazioni. Insomma l'intelligenza artificiale aiuta a rendere da un lato a velocizzare ottimizzare ancora di pi\u00f9 il I processi e da un altro chiaramente aiuta a renderli pi\u00f9 conformi, quindi ad aiutare le persone a standardizzarle e a renderli conformi alle norme, ai regolamenti e anche alle possibilit\u00e0 che uno pu\u00f2 mettere in campo per cui questo \u00e8 un ambito di applicazione in pi\u00f9 noi stiamo aggiungendo oltre che questo e qua ritorna la natura di Multicast che \u00e8 legata sostanzialmente a tutti a tutta la questione che riguarda privacy e protezione non lo facciamo in modo condiviso cio\u00e8 non usiamo strumenti diciamo terzi di condivisione, ma sono proprio degli oggetti fisici che il cliente in casa e dentro al quale sono storicizzate non solo tutte le parti che riguardano I dati da cui poi si evincono tutte le questioni, ma soprattutto la parte di intelligenza addestrata perch\u00e9 dopo tanti anni quella parte addestrata diventa un patrimonio del soggetto e non \u00e8 condivisa con nessuno, non \u00e8 condivisibile con nessuno e soprattutto se la spegni e la stacchi dalla rete e te la metti in una borsa te la porti a casa e quindi proprio fisicamente non \u00e8 condivisa questo chiaramente \u00e8 un meccanismo diciamo per un tipo di clientela alta Enterprise sostanzialmente ma che garantisce il massimo della privacy perch\u00e9 poi gli argomenti che magari trattano un consiglio di amministrazione sono argomenti di grandissima delicatezza e che se vuoi introdurre alcuni elementi di questi non puoi non sapere dove stanno, qual \u00e8 il modello che lo elabora e cosa quel modello imparer\u00e0 da quello che hai messo tu.\n\nS\u00ec\n\nSpeaker 0: assolutamente comprendo e l'ultima domanda cos\u00ec in un minuto se \u00e8 un messaggio diciamo per le altre persone che stanno lavorando su quest'ambito che pu\u00f2 essere partecipazione a voto elettronico all'estero in Italia?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora guarda io ti do 2 messaggi: 1\u00ba di continuare, di stimolarci a vicenda introducendo ogni volta un elemento in pi\u00f9 di innovazione, ampliando il mercato, cercando in qualche modo di portare dentro il mercato ambiti che ancora diciamo sono sono piccoli. Considera che il mercato della della votazione elettronica \u00e8 un mercato in crescita che sta nascendo da poco e quindi \u00e8 tutto un po' da fare. Quindi dico credeteci portate innovazione, cercate di non fiutare l'affare ma di introdurre un elemento di innovazione. Questo fa s\u00ec che cresce chi entra e cresce il mercato a vantaggio di tutti, non solo. Quindi di immettere qualit\u00e0 all'interno e professionalit\u00e0 all'interno di questo di questo mondo.\n\nAi politici dico di cominciare a pensare di regolamentarlo. Quando si parla di voto certificato, chi dice voto certificato mente perch\u00e9 per certificare qualcosa ho bisogno di una regola che mi consenta di verificare se quella cosa \u00e8 certificata e di un meccanismo per poterlo fare. Non c'\u00e8 nessuna legge che oggi regolamenti, normalizzi e renda cogente I processi di un voto elettronico, di un'assemblea elettronica e cos\u00ec via. E' una deroga a dei codici civili e a dei regolamenti che nella migliore delle ipotesi si rifanno a 30 anni fa. Nella migliore ce ne sono alcuni che addirittura parliamo di reggi decreti.\n\nQuindi ovviamente il legislatore 2\u00ba me oggi per forza deve mettere in campo delle normative chiare e che in qualche modo regolarizzino il discorso di cui dico 1\u00ba, cio\u00e8 che faccia s\u00ec che anche I clienti non imbattano in personaggi che insomma facevano fino a ieri cose che non c'entrano nulla e che non rendono nemmeno riconoscibile il risultato di un moto elettronico. Purtroppo questo \u00e8 oggi un buon far west che 2\u00ba me \u00e8 l'appello che faccio gi\u00e0 da qualche anno alla nostra classe politica di mettere mano magari anche tra noi associandoci facendo delle proposte legislative ma mettere mano a questo campo perch\u00e9 considera Alessandro che ormai che io sappia su 100 consigli d'amministrazione che vanno da non lo so quello di Leonardo al all'ASL di Benevento I 3 quarti sono online quindi chiaramente avere una norma che dice lo puoi fare online se cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 fatto in quest'altro modo, in quest'altro modo, 2\u00ba me \u00e8 la cosa pi\u00f9 auspicabile che si possa desiderare.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie 1000 Giovanni.", "paragraphs": [{"sentences": [{"text": "Benvenuti e benvenute in questa 2\u00ba puntata del Democracy Innovator Podcast in italiano, e oggi avremo come ospite Giovanni Di Sotto e CEO e fondatore di Multicast.", "start": 0.08, "end": 9.059999}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 9.4, "end": 9.9}, {"text": "Benvenuto.", "start": 10.24, "end": 10.74}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 11.759999, "end": 11.839999}], "start": 0.08, "end": 11.839999, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Grazie.", "start": 11.839999, "end": 11.92}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 11.92, "end": 12.0}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 12.0, "end": 12.08}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 12.08, "end": 12.33}, {"text": "Grazie.", "start": 12.33, "end": 12.83}], "start": 11.839999, "end": 12.83, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "1\u00ba ti chiedevo appunto cos'\u00e8 Multicast, di cosa si occupa, quali sono le aree.", "start": 16.105, "end": 21.885}], "start": 16.105, "end": 21.885, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora, Multicast intanto vi presento.", "start": 22.585, "end": 24.765}, {"text": "Sono l'ingegner Giovanni Disotto, fondatore di Multicast nel lontano 2004.", "start": 25.545, "end": 30.925}, {"text": "Multicast \u00e8 un'azienda che si occupava all'inizio di crittografia digitale in ambito delle telecomunicazioni negli anni, azienda che compier\u00e0 a fine mese 22 anni e si occupava di crittografazione in ambito di telecomunicazione e piano piano si \u00e8 spostata dall'ambito crittografico analogico digitale a quello completamente digitale poi al web.", "start": 31.289999, "end": 60.935}, {"text": "E poi nel 2014 attraverso un partner \u00e8 entrato nel mondo del del voto elettronico e della sicurizzazione dei dei sistemi di votazione elettronica.", "start": 61.23, "end": 76.93}, {"text": "1\u00ba quelli filari poi sono diventati sistemi diciamo smart comunque wireless e poi piano piano sono passati poi sul web e sono diventati quelli che in generale oggi utilizziamo che sono dei sistemi completamente o in sas o telematici creando una linea di prodotto nel 2014 che si chiama Skybot e che ad oggi nell'arco di circa 10 11 anni di lavoro fatto s\u00ec che sono transitate circa 5000000 e mezzo di codici fiscale, quindi di aventi diritto a vario titolo e in varie per varie diciamo a vario titolo sulle nostre piattaforme che sono diciamo varie perch\u00e9 non abbiamo un solo sistema abbiamo un po' una sorta di pacchetto molto simile come per semplificare al pacchetto office dove ci sono una serie di prodotti e di servizi che coprono una filiera intera di un processo democratico che va dall'elezione dei componenti di un determinato organo fino alla gestione dell'organo completa che va da quando si riuniscono a quando si distribuiscono I documenti a quando questi organi votano e generano determinate e qualunque documento esecutivo fino alla rendicontazione, la trascrizione, la verbalizzazione e la conservazione sostitutiva a norma 2\u00ba quelle che sono le linee guida e le leggi del codice dell'amministrazione digitale.", "start": 77.895, "end": 211.86}], "start": 22.585, "end": 211.86, "num_words": 291.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi copriamo con pezzi che sono sia autonomi e sia integrati tra loro, esattamente come fa Office con Word piuttosto che con Excel e ed altro, tutto l'intero ciclo di un processo decisionale.", "start": 212.40001, "end": 235.28499}], "start": 212.40001, "end": 235.28499, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Invece 1\u00ba appunto che I settori sono principalmente 2: 1 appunto governance, quindi efficienza, trasparenza e poi appunto ambiti pi\u00f9 diciamo elettivi legati a elezioni.", "start": 240.55, "end": 254.315}, {"text": "S\u00ec,", "start": 254.315, "end": 254.815}], "start": 240.55, "end": 254.815, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "diciamo che I 2 ambiti principali sono quelli che hai detto.", "start": 259.035, "end": 263.46}, {"text": "Quello della governance \u00e8 quello classico di un consiglio comunale ne prendo uno a caso ma un CDA, un comitato nazionale dei delegati, un comitato di indirizzo generale, cio\u00e8 sono degli organi collegiali che si riuniscono attorno a un'assemblea e che in qualche modo deliberano una serie di decisioni.", "start": 263.94, "end": 287.415}, {"text": "Questo processo di governance del Consiglio noi lo gestiamo al 100 per 100 perch\u00e9 da quando le segreterie decidono e calendarizzano la riunione, a quando creano l'ordine del giorno, a quando popolano l'ordine del giorno della documentazione necessaria che va dalle dai promemoria immagino CDA con dei promemoria piuttosto che delle delibere in bozza che vengono portate in un consiglio comunale quindi lo svolgimento del consiglio comunale con la gestione di tutto quello che \u00e8 il processo e la liturgia assembleare che va dal calcolo del quorum costitutivo ai vari gestione degli interventi, la gestione diciamo tutto quello che accade dentro il consiglio comunale viene gestito, registrato, documentato e messo in una condizione per la quale dal punto di vista delle segreterie sar\u00e0 molto pi\u00f9 facile e pi\u00f9 veloce ed efficiente gestirlo dal punto di vista del pubblico sar\u00e0 pi\u00f9 trasparente e facile poterne fruire e poter interagire con quello che \u00e8 il processo di quell'organo se quell'organo \u00e8 un organo pubblico penso per esempio al consiglio comunale il sistema consente alla fine del consiglio durante quindi \u00e8 possibile partecipare nel senso di assistere al consiglio tramite lo streaming classico.", "start": 288.11502, "end": 385.31998}], "start": 259.035, "end": 385.31998, "num_words": 250.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Poi la piattaforma raccoglie tutta una serie di dati che servono anche per in qualche modo dare una contezza di performance politica.", "start": 386.02, "end": 395.08}, {"text": "Ad esempio, il consigliere Mario Rossi in area partito x quante volte \u00e8 intervenuto, a quanti consigli comunali assistito, quante proposte di legge apportato, quante delibere, eccetera eccetera eccetera.", "start": 395.775, "end": 412.39}, {"text": "Il cittadino in questo modo pu\u00f2 capire se il consigliere che votato effettivamente svolto il suo lavoro e non solo in modo demagogico puoi valutare se effettivamente lo stipendio da pubblico amministratore se l'\u00e8 guadagnato o invece fatto solo la presenza.", "start": 412.39, "end": 438.51498}, {"text": "Mentre per quanto riguarda l'aspetto pi\u00f9 diretto, quello di elezione, dell'aspetto elettivo, noi abbiamo una piattaforma Enterprise molto molto grande.", "start": 439.13, "end": 452.91}, {"text": "Tra l'altro \u00e8 stata una delle piattaforme che ancora in Italia detiene il record di numero di aventi diritto in un'unica tornata elettorale.", "start": 453.125, "end": 466.005}], "start": 386.02, "end": 466.005, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Abbiamo gestito il referendum sulla legge sulla lingua primaria da studiare nelle nella provincia di Bolzano e hanno partecipato circa 510000 aventi diritto.", "start": 466.005, "end": 483.115}, {"text": "E' stata una prova molto interessante perch\u00e9 tra le tematiche che abbiamo dovuto affrontare in quello specifico ambito \u00e8 stata quella di attivare un riconoscimento per I minorenni.", "start": 483.115, "end": 496.27}, {"text": "Quindi per coloro che non hanno all'epoca, perch\u00e9 parliamo del 2022, non avevano all'epoca la possibilit\u00e0 di accedere attraverso SPID o altri tipi di riconoscimento digitale.", "start": 496.81, "end": 508.815}, {"text": "Quindi c'era un processo che avevamo messo in piedi insieme alla societ\u00e0 che gestisce la parte informatica della provincia autonoma di Bolzano, un sistema di riconoscimento anche per I ragazzi fino a 16 anni.", "start": 509.435, "end": 526.3}, {"text": "Quindi portato poi alla fine al voto circa il 40 per 100 dell'intera vendita diritto.", "start": 526.92, "end": 535.18}], "start": 466.005, "end": 535.18, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ti garantisco Alessandro che per un tipo di diciamo un tipo di votazione del genere \u00e8 una percentuale altissima, altissima.", "start": 535.24, "end": 549.65497}, {"text": "Senza che te lo spoilero ma era abbastanza banale, non \u00e8 stato l'italiano la lingua 1\u00ba scelta nelle scuole della provincia di Bolzano a questo poi chiaramente si seguono hanno seguito moltissimi altri enti diciamo sia 1\u00ba che dopo gestiamo votazioni soprattutto per enti diciamo di diritto pubblico private e diritto pubblico penso per esempio alle casse alle casse previdenziali private.", "start": 550.115, "end": 583.35004}, {"text": "Penso ad esempio a tutti gli ordini professionali, ai consigli e le federazioni degli ordini professionali, a grandi assemblee.", "start": 583.35004, "end": 596.09}, {"text": "Un altro diciamo un'altra nostra peculiarit\u00e0.", "start": 598.525, "end": 601.505}, {"text": "Siamo stati scelti in sostituzione della piattaforma Rousseau dal movimento 5 stelle che sostituito una piattaforma che era integrante come soggetto politico a un arbitro 3\u00ba che invece non non un ruolo di nessun genere politico e quindi rifacendo comunque rimanere nello statuto l'esigenza di consultare la base elettorale con una certa frequenza, per\u00f2 utilizzando un arbitro e non un giocatore di parte.", "start": 602.04504, "end": 645.01}], "start": 535.24, "end": 645.01, "num_words": 169.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Questa \u00e8 stata la nostra venuta in quel specifico ambito \u00e8 stato \u00e8 stata questo cambio di passo che non \u00e8 solo un cambio tecnologico ma \u00e8 proprio un cambio diciamo di merito del dell'accesso a questo movimento.", "start": 645.31, "end": 668.555}], "start": 645.31, "end": 668.555, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Mi stavo chiedendo nel corso del tempo quanto \u00e8 cambiata la piattaforma?", "start": 671.31, "end": 674.85}, {"text": "Che appunto mi dice che c'\u00e8 questa suite di diversi prodotti, immagino alcuni siano arrivati dopo magari.", "start": 675.55, "end": 680.85}], "start": 671.31, "end": 680.85, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "La piattaforma \u00e8 cambiata praticamente tantissimo e cambia praticamente tutti I giorni.", "start": 682.58496, "end": 687.64496}, {"text": "I motivi per cui cambia sono sostanzialmente 3: il 1\u00ba motivo \u00e8 un'esigenza specifica di sicurezza, perch\u00e9 ovviamente capisci bene che tutto il nostro lavoro \u00e8 permeato e si basa su quelli che sono I pi\u00f9 alti protocolli di sicurezza possibile.", "start": 690.02496, "end": 714.26}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 basta poco per sospendere un'elezione piuttosto che invalidarla, piuttosto che in qualche modo trovare un meccanismo per truccarla no, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 molto veramente troppo complesso e difficile, ma sicuramente per creare attorno a un determinato processo elettorale quel fumus, perch\u00e9 poi per 10 minuti si \u00e8 spenta, non si \u00e8 accesa, non \u00e8 stato quindi mantenere le performance e I livelli di sicurezza che consentono all'elettore che va a votare di andare liscio come l'olio e a noi chiaramente di prevenire attacchi di ogni genere fa s\u00ec che la piattaforma cambi ogni 3 mesi.", "start": 718.935, "end": 772.005}, {"text": "Ci sono vari aggiornamenti.", "start": 772.085, "end": 774.065}, {"text": "Un altro ambito in cui \u00e8 stata cambiata tanto \u00e8 nell'usabilit\u00e0 ovviamente sono cambiati gli strumenti nel 2014 noi abbiamo fatto la 1\u00ba votazione online nel 2016 circa c'erano il browser, c'era internet explorer, c'erano s\u00ec qualche browser ma si votava sostanzialmente con un pc al limite con un tablet.", "start": 774.225, "end": 802.705}], "start": 682.58496, "end": 802.705, "num_words": 202.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Adesso \u00e8 il contrario, quindi adesso voti direttamente col telefonino e questo fatto s\u00ec che cambiassero anche gli aspetti, e vengo al 3\u00ba punto, di identificazione.", "start": 802.705, "end": 815.205}, {"text": "Noi siamo stati sempre, per nostra natura, abbiamo sempre introdotto anche quando ne era obbligatorio, ne anzi era un po' visto anche male.", "start": 816.1, "end": 827.06}, {"text": "Abbiamo introdotto sempre almeno un 2\u00ba fattore di autenticazione all'interno di queste delle nostre piattaforme.", "start": 827.06, "end": 833.975}, {"text": "Considera che l'elemento critico delle piattaforme informatiche legate al voto o comunque in generale quello dell'autenticazione e quindi nel 2015 diciamo lo SPID era quasi un esperimento e anzi forse se non ricordo male era proprio in fase sperimentale.", "start": 834.19495, "end": 860.505}, {"text": "Quindi noi ci siamo dovuti inventare qualcosa.", "start": 862.08496, "end": 864.26495}], "start": 802.705, "end": 864.26495, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Considera che molte di queste delle lezioni che facciamo faccio un esempio le elezioni che facciamo per inarcassa dico la 1\u00ba che mi viene in mente perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un cliente storico che \u00e8 la cassa di previdenza degli architetti e degli ingegneri \u00e8 una cassa che gestisce quelli che eleggono e che poi andranno a comporre 1\u00ba il comitato nazionale delegati successivamente il CDA gestisce 11 13000000000 di bilanci l'anno quindi \u00e8 chiaro che il tema della sicurezza, il tema dell'identificazione, della certezza di quello che voti \u00e8 centrale e questo lo puoi fare solo se la tiene aggiornata e segui quelle che sono poi diciamo l'approccio all'usabilit\u00e0 che durante il percorso gli utenti hanno.", "start": 864.725, "end": 929.28}, {"text": "L'OTP per esempio l'abbiamo sostituito con un sistema che \u00e8 in automatico lo legge il telefono per cui riconosce il telefono insomma ci sono una serie di accorgimenti che abbiamo introdotto soprattutto per semplificare poi considera Alessandro che il voto \u00e8 come avere per l'utente come avere una cartuccia e con quella che unica cartuccia devi colpire l'uccello perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che c'\u00e8 un 2\u00ba no aspetta la rifacciamo proviamo quindi quell'utente che quella piattaforma non l' mai vista \u00c8 la 1\u00ba volta che vede quella cosa, quindi deve essere estremamente intuitiva, estremamente semplice, ma nonostante questo deve essere anche estremamente sicura e quindi certificate il voto che \u00e8 stato espresso.", "start": 929.9, "end": 982.93}], "start": 864.725, "end": 982.93, "num_words": 226.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Questa \u00e8 la pi\u00f9 grossa difficolt\u00e0 che noi abbiamo difficolt\u00e0, diciamo, il pi\u00f9 grosso impegno che mettiamo durante questi 11 anni di esperienza per far s\u00ec che le persone facilmente abbiano accesso e possano esprimere il proprio voto.", "start": 982.99, "end": 1001.96497}], "start": 982.99, "end": 1001.96497, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo la sicurezza \u00e8 fondamentale in questo caso.", "start": 1003.94495, "end": 1007.725}, {"text": "So che ci sono anche molte persone contrarie diciamo a questa alla cosa del voto online e che tipo di risposta daresti riguardo non so magari", "start": 1010.79, "end": 1021.61}], "start": 1003.94495, "end": 1021.61, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora bella domanda dunque c'ho un'ora no?", "start": 1022.565, "end": 1029.945}, {"text": "Allora velocissimamente Sono abbastanza non ho I capelli ma se ce li avessi ce li avrei avuti bianchi per cui sono abbastanza anziano da poter dire che il voto elettronico da non poter dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 la panacea di tutti I mali quindi si risolve ogni questione con il voto elettronico d'altro canto le problematiche del voto non elettronico quello analogico le conosciamo da tantissimi anni.", "start": 1032.485, "end": 1062.645}, {"text": "Il tema \u00e8 legato a 2 aspetti fondamentali: il 1\u00ba \u00e8 che chi parla di solito non conosce esattamente la materia di cui chi parla e dice che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 certo, non \u00e8 sicuro, eccetera \u00e8 di solito colui il quale poi effettivamente non conosce molto addentro la materia.", "start": 1064.37, "end": 1086.2251}, {"text": "L'altro aspetto \u00e8 la rieleggibilit\u00e0.", "start": 1086.2251, "end": 1088.3251}, {"text": "Considera che il voto elettronico allora ti faccio faccio un piccolo preambolo ogni anno in Italia hanno diritto ad esprimere un voto circa 21000000 di persone.", "start": 1089.505, "end": 1100.7699}], "start": 1022.565, "end": 1100.7699, "num_words": 159.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "21000001 dice ventunoomilioni perch\u00e9 se stai in un condominio almeno una volta devi fare devi votare il bilancio, poi non lo fai, ma il diritto al voto ce l'hai.", "start": 1101.47, "end": 1112.6449}, {"text": "Hai anche un figlio a scuola?", "start": 1113.585, "end": 1115.125}, {"text": "Almeno una volta all'anno devi votare di rappresentante di classe e ogni 3 anni quello di istituto.", "start": 1115.345, "end": 1120.885}, {"text": "Fai parte di un'azienda ogni 3 anni ci sono le rls, le rs1, le rsa fai parte di un ordine professionale ogni 4 c'\u00e8 il rinnovo dei consigli direttivi e potrei proseguire per cooperative per tutto quello che fa.", "start": 1121.9099, "end": 1140.635}, {"text": "Se fai la somma di tutta questa giostra intorno ai 20 21000000 di aventi diritto al voto che potrebbero esprimere una volta l'anno un voto.", "start": 1140.635, "end": 1155.9801}], "start": 1101.47, "end": 1155.9801, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Chiaramente la bellezza di tutta questa cosa \u00e8 che quelli che acquistano I servizi di votazione non sono quelli che votano ma sono I votati, \u00e8 l'elettorato passivo.", "start": 1157.64, "end": 1173.375}, {"text": "Quindi il fruitore del voto non \u00e8 colui il quale pu\u00f2 scegliere lo strumento con cui farlo.", "start": 1173.375, "end": 1179.69}, {"text": "E' come se tu per andare a casa 6 tu il guidatore ma ahim\u00e8 la macchina la decide il datore di lavoro.", "start": 1180.07, "end": 1188.71}, {"text": "Quindi o con cosa ci va e lo decide il datore di lavoro, il quale chiaramente un interesse diverso rispetto a quello di chi esprime il voto.", "start": 1188.71, "end": 1201.135}, {"text": "Da qui nascono diciamo una serie di tematiche tra queste lasciami dire sicuramente c'\u00e8 quella della della partecipazione.", "start": 1201.675, "end": 1215.01}], "start": 1157.64, "end": 1215.01, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "La partecipazione \u00e8 una parola con la quale tutti si riempiono la bocca ma di cui tutti hanno paura perch\u00e9 ovviamente quando vanno a votare in 100000 e normalmente andavano a votare in 5000 capisci che cambiano le dinamiche.", "start": 1215.31, "end": 1238.35}, {"text": "Ti faccio un racconto che \u00e8 divertente perch\u00e9 diciamo ti fa capire esattamente di cosa sto parlando e qual \u00e8 poi vero merito del voto \u00e8 sicuro non \u00e8 sicuro la frase \u00e8 diciamo \u00e8 abbastanza tronca il voto \u00e8 sicuro che mi rilegge il tema \u00e8 questo era il covid parliamo di marzo aprile aprile 2020 Ovviamente ti lascio immaginare che noi siamo stati travolti dal Covid perch\u00e9 chiaramente le nostre piattaforme sono state proprio prese d'assalto.", "start": 1238.89, "end": 1281.985}, {"text": "Ovviamente nessuno di noi si aspettava un'esplosione di questo genere, doveva comunque andare avanti il paese eccetera eccetera.", "start": 1282.365, "end": 1290.9601}, {"text": "Che cosa accade?", "start": 1291.3401, "end": 1292.14}, {"text": "Accade che chiaramente per la 1\u00ba volta molti soggetti si affacciano a questo mondo con la paura che ti ho appena espresso.", "start": 1292.14, "end": 1304.245}], "start": 1215.31, "end": 1304.245, "num_words": 160.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Dico ma io ho 500 iscritti mediamente vengono a votare in 80 100 mi devono passare davanti perch\u00e9 vengono a votare qui quindi suonano al campanello io li saluto e dico vota bene entrano nel voto elettronico sono morto allora un soggetto di cui non dir\u00f2 il nome per evitare di accedere al voto elettronico affitta un capannone industriale praticamente c'hai presente non so se ti ricordi c'erano I centri quelli dove andavi con la macchina direttamente in macchina ti facevano il tampone non ti facevo fatto la stessa cosa arrivava in automobile all'inizio c'era uno che verificava chi eri e ti dava la scheda, ti fermavi a met\u00e0 del capannone, votavi dentro la macchina, mettevi la scheda nell'urna e poi uscivi e te ne andr\u00e0.", "start": 1304.245, "end": 1370.25}, {"text": "Chiaramente questo avuto su 500 iscritti 36 votanti.", "start": 1370.25, "end": 1375.79}, {"text": "Ora \u00e8 evidente che 36 votanti gi\u00e0 basta che fai votare tua madre tuo padre e un paio d'amici e la votazione \u00e8 chiusa.", "start": 1377.29, "end": 1386.6849}, {"text": "I colleghi che hanno avuto ordini molto pi\u00f9 piccoli con tanta gente che stava a casa non aveva niente da fare perch\u00e9 c'era il covid sono stati eletti con percentuali che vanno sopra il 70, l'ottanta per 100.", "start": 1388.0249, "end": 1403.0599}, {"text": "Ci sono stati alcuni soggetti che hanno raggiunto il 90 per 100.", "start": 1403.44, "end": 1408.1}], "start": 1304.245, "end": 1408.1, "num_words": 208.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ora \u00e8 evidente che il problema di rappresentazione \u00e8 totale.", "start": 1408.125, "end": 1413.345}, {"text": "Chi rappresenta un cristiano che \u00e8 stato votato dal 4 per 100 degli aventi diritto?", "start": 1413.885, "end": 1419.665}, {"text": "Se stesso perch\u00e9 non \u00e8 che rappresenta ecco il tema della votazione elettronica non \u00e8 sulla sicurezza perch\u00e9 \u00e8 tutto verificabile certificabile potrei aprire un tema su chi mi dice che SPID \u00e8 verificato piuttosto chi mi dice che la CIE funziona \u00e8 tutto regolare.", "start": 1421.26, "end": 1438.705}, {"text": "Te lo dico perch\u00e9 c'\u00e8 tutta l'umidit\u00e0bilit\u00e0 di questi sistemi \u00e8 possibile verificarli punto per punto perch\u00e9 I soggetti che diciamo fanno parte della filiera sono tanti diversi e quindi chiaramente per poter mettere mano dovresti mettere mano con cio\u00e8 dovrebbe essere proprio un ordire una 1 diciamo un complotto mondiale.", "start": 1439.565, "end": 1467.727}, {"text": "E quindi chiaramente il vero tema \u00e8 che dietro questa relazione si nasconde oggettivamente tutt'altro.", "start": 1467.727, "end": 1475.075}], "start": 1408.125, "end": 1475.075, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E in questo paese, credimi Alessandro ho tanta esperienza per dirti che \u00e8 molto pi\u00f9 questo che si nasconde che effettivamente la conoscenza del fatto che una chiave asimmetrica a 2048 bit sia pi\u00f9 o meno sicura per la certificazione del voto.", "start": 1475.2949, "end": 1493.4551}, {"text": "Dubito che un rappresentante sindacale entri in questo merito nonostante poi dica che il voto elettronico non \u00e8 sicuro.", "start": 1493.915, "end": 1501.375}], "start": 1475.2949, "end": 1501.375, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo tra l'altro molto interessante questa cosa, stavo pensando a questo car vaute, non so che potrebbe essere chiamato cos\u00ec, e volevo chiederti perch\u00e9 appunto molto senso questa strategia che chi deve farsi eleggere magari mette in campo a 2\u00ba di se vuole appunto farsi rileggere o meno, E mi dicevi che ci sono altissimi livelli di partecipazione quando il voto \u00e8 online e allora mi chiedo se possa essere una cura all'astensionismo.", "start": 1502.4751, "end": 1543.09}, {"text": "C'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 appunto adesso con la tecnologia \u00e8 possibile fare questo, cio\u00e8 nel senso \u00e8 possibile magari che 60000000000 di persone si esprimano riguardo una determinata questione, senza tecnologia diciamo che sarebbe proprio impossibile.", "start": 1547.765, "end": 1561.065}, {"text": "Quindi in qualche modo rende possibile anche delle trasformazioni del sistema politico in cui viviamo.", "start": 1561.125, "end": 1569.6499}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 penso che I 5 Stelle in qualche modo ci hanno un po' provato con questa cosa della democrazia diretta, attraverso la partecipazione sul Rousseau.", "start": 1571.39, "end": 1580.3151}, {"text": "Mi chiedo se, ecco, sul lungo termine, se pensi che possa essere Cio\u00e8 \u00e8 chiaro, nel senso, le persone stanno sempre pi\u00f9 utilizzando la tecnologia.", "start": 1582.055, "end": 1590.7151}], "start": 1502.4751, "end": 1590.7151, "num_words": 172.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Questo sia I cittadini sia I politici.", "start": 1594.74, "end": 1597.32}, {"text": "Ecco, mi chiedo quale siano anche riflessioni proprio sul magari tra 5 anni, 10 anni.", "start": 1598.8999, "end": 1605.48}, {"text": "Come pensi possa?", "start": 1605.5399, "end": 1607.3999}], "start": 1594.74, "end": 1607.3999, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora ci sono 2 temi anche qua Alessandro.", "start": 1608.355, "end": 1613.1749}, {"text": "Il tema \u00e8 l'introduzione di aspetti tecnologici su un diritto naturale che \u00e8 quello del voto e l'alfabetizzazione informatica di un paese che per\u00f2 tende ad invecchiare e non a diventare pi\u00f9 giovane.", "start": 1613.315, "end": 1634.25}, {"text": "E quindi immagino mia mamma di 83 anni che si trova davanti a uno schermo o alla possibilit\u00e0 di votare in elettronico.", "start": 1635.365, "end": 1643.945}, {"text": "Sicuramente l'introduzione del voto elettronico \u00e8 diciamo credibilmente un'introduzione possibile in modo misto cio\u00e8 dove una persona pu\u00f2 decidere se votare in modo tradizionale o da casa \u00e8 sicuramente auspicabile per tutti quelli che invece si devono muovere per poter votare.", "start": 1645.605, "end": 1668.995}, {"text": "Parlo degli italiani all'estero fino ad arrivare ai fuori sede e c'\u00e8 tutta la polemica che ogni volta che c'\u00e8 il voto sui rimborsi, sulla possibilit\u00e0 di votare fuori eccetera.", "start": 1669.535, "end": 1681.52}], "start": 1608.355, "end": 1681.52, "num_words": 134.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ma anche l\u00ec il tema \u00e8 chi \u00e8 che vota fuori sede?", "start": 1681.74, "end": 1686.7}, {"text": "La maggior parte dei voti sono giovani e quindi di persone che o si affacciano per la 1\u00ba volta al voto o che non hanno un riferimento specifico di partito, quindi li fanno paura.", "start": 1686.7, "end": 1698.6749}, {"text": "\u00c8 evidente che gestire un consolidato \u00e8 pi\u00f9 facile che introdurre una variabile e quindi chiaramente anche qua la vedo difficile nonostante anche io sono d'accordo sul fatto che I tempi sono stramaturi stramaturi per poter introdurre in modo collaterale diciamo aggiuntivo integrativo un sistema di voto elettronico penso agli ammalati Considera che ogni anno voti per delega cio\u00e8 per delega significa che c'\u00e8 un signore che vicino all'altro signore vota per per l'ammalato sono circa 20000 voti a Roma con 3000 fai l'assessore cio\u00e8 voglio dire sono delle condizioni attorno alle quali chiaramente magari con 3000 no 5000 l'assessore 3000 lo fai al municipio Quindi sono sostanzialmente delle condizioni con le quali che oggi ci sono ci sono I mezzi per poterle attuare.", "start": 1699.375, "end": 1776.0399}, {"text": "In questo caso c'\u00e8 stata una sperimentazione 2 anni fa con la spinta dei 5 stelle l'ultimo governo Conte e poi messa in atto dal governo Draghi su una sperimentazione italiana all'estero che si chiamava io voto se non erro \u00e8 stato fatto un test non pubblicizzato non portato da nessuna parte infatti \u00e8 stato un flop abbiamo speso 1000000 di euro di soldi pubblici non partecipato praticamente nessuno hanno raccolto 8000 voti per 2 collegi all'estero insomma una cosa molto molto piccola tanto per dire che il voto elettronico \u00e8 comunque inutile e non aggiunge nulla.", "start": 1777.2999, "end": 1826.7301}], "start": 1681.74, "end": 1826.7301, "num_words": 267.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quando se invece fosse stato giustamente pubblicizzato, 2\u00ba me noi facciamo platee molto pi\u00f9 piccole, raccogliamo pi\u00f9 voti.", "start": 1826.7301, "end": 1838.03}, {"text": "Se c'\u00e8 l'interesse da parte delle persone ad essere realmente votate fanno s\u00ec che si spinga il sistema con cui si vota.", "start": 1838.145, "end": 1845.8251}, {"text": "La delazione dell'accessibilit\u00e0 al voto, quella prevista dall'articolo 48 della costituzione, che tutti dobbiamo poter votare e quindi non possiamo essere legati al fatto che io abbia o meno la possibilit\u00e0 di acquistare un telefono di un certo tipo o di poter avere una connessione ad internet o anche voglio dire la croce nasce dal fatto che anche gli analfabeti avrebbero dovuto avere la possibilit\u00e0 di esprimere il consenso.", "start": 1845.8251, "end": 1876.875}, {"text": "Questo si supera perch\u00e9 in molti paesi del mondo il sistema elettronico lo puoi trovare in presenza.", "start": 1878.695, "end": 1884.6901}, {"text": "E' elettronico ma in presenza.", "start": 1884.99, "end": 1886.85}], "start": 1826.7301, "end": 1886.85, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E anche l\u00ec meno contestazione seggi, pi\u00f9 velocit\u00e0 di scrutinio, meno questioni di ogni genere.", "start": 1887.23, "end": 1894.77}, {"text": "La tecnologia \u00e8 fatta di numeri e di questioni certe.", "start": 1897.705, "end": 1901.645}, {"text": "La democrazia \u00e8 sostanzialmente la gestione dell'incerto, per cui in qualche modo le 2 cose devono trovare un equilibrio che non sempre si trova in questo paese", "start": 1903.065, "end": 1921.35}], "start": 1887.23, "end": 1921.35, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Infatti 1\u00ba c'\u00e8 questa diciamo che magari la politica \u00e8 pi\u00f9 lenta a cambiare rispetto alla tecnologia.", "start": 1923.615, "end": 1932.355}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 diciamo che la tecnologia sta evolvendo in maniera cos\u00ec veloce che effettivamente tutti I settori fanno fatica a rimanere aggiornati, per\u00f2 nel campo della politica in particolare.", "start": 1932.415, "end": 1944.48}, {"text": "Una cosa che mi son chiesto diverse volte \u00e8 se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0.", "start": 1946.86, "end": 1952.0}, {"text": "Va beh, dipende come evolveranno le cose, per\u00f2 quello che mi son chiesto \u00e8 se sostanzialmente la classe politica attuale pian pianino si riaggiorner\u00e0, nel senso che verranno a conoscenza dei vari mezzi, quindi pu\u00f2 essere il voto elettronico, altre piattaforme legate alla partecipazione o se sostanzialmente ci sar\u00e0 bisogno di una nuova classe politica che poi avverr\u00e0 in maniera naturale perch\u00e9 anche proprio per il cambio generazionale.", "start": 1955.395, "end": 1983.385}, {"text": "Diciamo sono domande che mi son posto, non so se", "start": 1987.365, "end": 1989.685}], "start": 1923.615, "end": 1989.685, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Guarda, Alessandro, io ti dico una cosa: l'et\u00e0 media del Parlamento italiano \u00e8 di 51 anni.", "start": 1990.245, "end": 1997.7899}, {"text": "E ti dico un'altra cosa: il parlamento italiano nello specifico il Senato della Repubblica Italiana \u00e8 stato uno dei parlamenti tra I primi parlamenti al mondo nel 1000 novecentottantaquattro a introdurre il voto elettronico in aula e lo introdusse una societ\u00e0 che era un progetto dell'Olivetti tanto per far per sottolineare l'ennesima volta quanto stavano avanti I nostri imprenditori dell'epoca e lo hanno introdotto e a tutt'oggi chiaramente il Senato poi il parlamento e tutto il resto utilizza sistemi elettronici di voto.", "start": 1998.45, "end": 2050.8198}, {"text": "Insomma voglio dire perch\u00e9 quel sistema \u00e8 pi\u00f9 certo di un altro che dovrebbe eleggerti quando l\u00ec magari per un voto decidiamo di aumentare le tasse piuttosto che da dare in guerra?", "start": 2051.0398, "end": 2064.74}, {"text": "Ci sono delle delle condizioni per le quali quel meccanismo vale per altri non vale.", "start": 2065.085, "end": 2072.1516}, {"text": "In pi\u00f9 c'\u00e8 un altro fatto: 51 anni \u00e8 un'et\u00e0 media molto alta per il Parlamento.", "start": 2072.1516, "end": 2078.49}], "start": 1990.245, "end": 2078.49, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Per il Senato forse si arriva a 60 ed \u00e8 gi\u00e0 una generazione che non c'entra pi\u00f9 nulla con quella attuale.", "start": 2078.49, "end": 2088.03}, {"text": "Io sono un cinquantenne, nonostante sia il CEO di un'azienda tecnologica.", "start": 2088.8901, "end": 2095.305}, {"text": "Io stesso abbiamo introdotto per esempio adesso sistemi di intelligenza artificiale, securizzandoli, securizzandoli, stiamo facendo una serie di prodotti molto interessanti su questo.", "start": 2096.565, "end": 2109.7}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 ho un approccio un po' pi\u00f9 cauto, un po' per il tema per I temi che trattiamo, un po' perch\u00e9 chiaramente la mia et\u00e0 \u00e8 questa.", "start": 2109.7, "end": 2118.585}, {"text": "Figurati persone che questa roba non l'hanno mai usata.", "start": 2118.8052, "end": 2122.405}], "start": 2078.49, "end": 2122.405, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Considera che met\u00e0 dei parlamentari, se fanno scrivere post su Linkedin, se li fanno scrivere su Twitter, non sono loro che scrivono e non so se \u00e8 un male o un bene tra l'altro.", "start": 2122.405, "end": 2134.62}, {"text": "Quindi dico che ci sono tutta una serie di temi che per forza diciamo confliggono con questi della della democrazia digitale e dell'avvento non solo della dei sistemi di democrazia digitale ma proprio di dei sistemi in generale.", "start": 2134.62, "end": 2155.665}, {"text": "Un esempio per tutti \u00e8 stato lo SPID.", "start": 2155.965, "end": 2158.145}, {"text": "Lo SPID praticamente in Italia abbiamo in qualche modo appartato a terzi l'identit\u00e0 digitale di un Paese.", "start": 2158.445, "end": 2169.14}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9?", "start": 2169.36, "end": 2169.86}], "start": 2122.405, "end": 2169.86, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9 all'epoca il parlamento e il ministero che se ne occupava, adesso non mi ricordo se erano interni o addirittura ministero no forse gli interni non ci credeva.", "start": 2170.32, "end": 2186.275}, {"text": "Pensava che questa cosa si vabb\u00e8 ma \u00e8 inutile che spendiamo soldi nostri creiamo una cosa che magari muore fino a che siamo arrivati al punto che giustamente gli operatori di SPID allo stato lo danno gratis e hanno cominciato a bussare a battere cassa.", "start": 2187.9202, "end": 2207.505}, {"text": "Lo stato ovviamente detto piuttosto che pagare degli operatori a questo punto mi faccio CIE e per anni abbiamo in parte pagati l'operatore abbiamo creato una comodit\u00e0 indiscutibile sulla quale siamo stati costretti a fare delle marce indietro e a metterla a pagamento costruendo di corsa un sistema con con la CIE che ancora \u00e8 inferiore in termini numerici allo SPID.", "start": 2207.7249, "end": 2236.785}, {"text": "Questo meccanismo che \u00e8 abnorme la dice lunga sulla capacit\u00e0 di lettura in prospettiva anche corta non lunga.", "start": 2237.7249, "end": 2248.0}, {"text": "Ma perch\u00e9?", "start": 2248.02, "end": 2249.04}], "start": 2170.32, "end": 2249.04, "num_words": 154.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9, ripeto, se queste sono le medie dell'et\u00e0 delle persone che poi in qualche modo devono prendere decisioni \u00e8 normale che la sensibilit\u00e0 non potr\u00e0 essere quella di una persona che invece \u00e8 nata, cresciuta e in questi ambiti digitali diciamo Pasqua tutti I giorni.", "start": 2249.58, "end": 2268.375}], "start": 2249.58, "end": 2268.375, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo.", "start": 2270.835, "end": 2271.2349}, {"text": "E domanda che non c'entra fino a che ora abbiamo?", "start": 2271.2349, "end": 2274.3499}], "start": 2270.835, "end": 2274.3499, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "7 minuti ancora.", "start": 2276.25, "end": 2277.47}], "start": 2276.25, "end": 2277.47, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ok perfetto.", "start": 2277.8499, "end": 2278.5898}, {"text": "Allora ho ancora 2 domande giusto cos\u00ec.", "start": 2279.13, "end": 2281.71}, {"text": "La 1\u00ba domanda: 1\u00ba dicevi nuove funzionalit\u00e0 anche con l'AI, in questo caso mi era venuto in mente quelle metriche di cui parlavi 1\u00ba legate non so a quanti interventi magari fatto un politico, non so, E quindi penso che piani magari anche un po' pi\u00f9 qualitativi.", "start": 2283.69, "end": 2303.33}, {"text": "Quindi non so se uno propone delle idee, se uno non lo so, quali sono le funzionalit\u00e0 magari con le high che stavate pensando o altre funzionalit\u00e0 che tu vorresti lavorare?", "start": 2304.83, "end": 2317.7048}], "start": 2277.8499, "end": 2317.7048, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ok, le AI la stiamo introducendo in ambito sostanzialmente di governance 1\u00ba di tutto.", "start": 2317.9248, "end": 2323.605}, {"text": "Quindi parliamo andiamo dalla ricerca semantica per grandi archivi di tanti verbali, verbalizzazioni, trascrizioni.", "start": 2323.605, "end": 2333.35}, {"text": "Spesso nei CDA, nei consigli, ai 20 anni di trascrizioni non puoi sapere il pensiero di Giovanni di Sotto, di Alessandro Oppo.", "start": 2333.8901, "end": 2345.005}, {"text": "Faccio una ricerca semantica dicendo: ma come la pensava il consigliere Oppo relativamente al ponte sullo stretto?", "start": 2345.865, "end": 2354.845}, {"text": "E l\u00ec ti d\u00e0 una sintesi fa una ricerca su una grande quantit\u00e0 di dati e ti caccia fuori un output diciamo sintetico che avrebbe invece avuto necessit\u00e0 di una ricerca molto pi\u00f9 complessa con molto pi\u00f9 tempo a disposizione fino ad arrivare a sintetizzare direttamente il sistema e il verbale, quindi a fare una sintesi ragionata e strutturata della riunione dell'assemblea del consiglio e quindi fare un preverbale dove gi\u00e0 ci sono le sintesi e I fatti salienti che poi verranno messi in conservazione fino ad arrivare anche alla gestione di alcuni elementi quali gli elementi legati al le determine o ai a quelli che sono diciamo I documenti finali di queste decisioni.", "start": 2355.1401, "end": 2423.2952}], "start": 2317.9248, "end": 2423.2952, "num_words": 181.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Per cui in quel caso ti dice se I riferimenti legali possono pi\u00f9 o meno essere giusti, se quella cosa \u00e8 attuabile ed \u00e8 attuabile 2\u00ba determinate indicazioni.", "start": 2423.355, "end": 2437.55}, {"text": "Insomma l'intelligenza artificiale aiuta a rendere da un lato a velocizzare ottimizzare ancora di pi\u00f9 il I processi e da un altro chiaramente aiuta a renderli pi\u00f9 conformi, quindi ad aiutare le persone a standardizzarle e a renderli conformi alle norme, ai regolamenti e anche alle possibilit\u00e0 che uno pu\u00f2 mettere in campo per cui questo \u00e8 un ambito di applicazione in pi\u00f9 noi stiamo aggiungendo oltre che questo e qua ritorna la natura di Multicast che \u00e8 legata sostanzialmente a tutti a tutta la questione che riguarda privacy e protezione non lo facciamo in modo condiviso cio\u00e8 non usiamo strumenti diciamo terzi di condivisione, ma sono proprio degli oggetti fisici che il cliente in casa e dentro al quale sono storicizzate non solo tutte le parti che riguardano I dati da cui poi si evincono tutte le questioni, ma soprattutto la parte di intelligenza addestrata perch\u00e9 dopo tanti anni quella parte addestrata diventa un patrimonio del soggetto e non \u00e8 condivisa con nessuno, non \u00e8 condivisibile con nessuno e soprattutto se la spegni e la stacchi dalla rete e te la metti in una borsa te la porti a casa e quindi proprio fisicamente non \u00e8 condivisa questo chiaramente \u00e8 un meccanismo diciamo per un tipo di clientela alta Enterprise sostanzialmente ma che garantisce il massimo della privacy perch\u00e9 poi gli argomenti che magari trattano un consiglio di amministrazione sono argomenti di grandissima delicatezza e che se vuoi introdurre alcuni elementi di questi non puoi non sapere dove stanno, qual \u00e8 il modello che lo elabora e cosa quel modello imparer\u00e0 da quello che hai messo tu.", "start": 2437.55, "end": 2583.69}], "start": 2423.355, "end": 2583.69, "num_words": 296.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "S\u00ec", "start": 2584.55, "end": 2585.05}], "start": 2584.55, "end": 2585.05, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "assolutamente comprendo e l'ultima domanda cos\u00ec in un minuto se \u00e8 un messaggio diciamo per le altre persone che stanno lavorando su quest'ambito che pu\u00f2 essere partecipazione a voto elettronico all'estero in Italia?", "start": 2587.27, "end": 2602.565}], "start": 2587.27, "end": 2602.565, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora guarda io ti do 2 messaggi: 1\u00ba di continuare, di stimolarci a vicenda introducendo ogni volta un elemento in pi\u00f9 di innovazione, ampliando il mercato, cercando in qualche modo di portare dentro il mercato ambiti che ancora diciamo sono sono piccoli.", "start": 2603.84, "end": 2633.1401}, {"text": "Considera che il mercato della della votazione elettronica \u00e8 un mercato in crescita che sta nascendo da poco e quindi \u00e8 tutto un po' da fare.", "start": 2633.1401, "end": 2642.04}, {"text": "Quindi dico credeteci portate innovazione, cercate di non fiutare l'affare ma di introdurre un elemento di innovazione.", "start": 2642.42, "end": 2654.045}, {"text": "Questo fa s\u00ec che cresce chi entra e cresce il mercato a vantaggio di tutti, non solo.", "start": 2654.505, "end": 2662.5898}, {"text": "Quindi di immettere qualit\u00e0 all'interno e professionalit\u00e0 all'interno di questo di questo mondo.", "start": 2662.73, "end": 2668.75}], "start": 2603.84, "end": 2668.75, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ai politici dico di cominciare a pensare di regolamentarlo.", "start": 2669.13, "end": 2673.15}, {"text": "Quando si parla di voto certificato, chi dice voto certificato mente perch\u00e9 per certificare qualcosa ho bisogno di una regola che mi consenta di verificare se quella cosa \u00e8 certificata e di un meccanismo per poterlo fare.", "start": 2674.6748, "end": 2692.53}, {"text": "Non c'\u00e8 nessuna legge che oggi regolamenti, normalizzi e renda cogente I processi di un voto elettronico, di un'assemblea elettronica e cos\u00ec via.", "start": 2692.53, "end": 2705.9583}, {"text": "E' una deroga a dei codici civili e a dei regolamenti che nella migliore delle ipotesi si rifanno a 30 anni fa.", "start": 2705.9583, "end": 2714.065}, {"text": "Nella migliore ce ne sono alcuni che addirittura parliamo di reggi decreti.", "start": 2714.065, "end": 2719.27}], "start": 2669.13, "end": 2719.27, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi ovviamente il legislatore 2\u00ba me oggi per forza deve mettere in campo delle normative chiare e che in qualche modo regolarizzino il discorso di cui dico 1\u00ba, cio\u00e8 che faccia s\u00ec che anche I clienti non imbattano in personaggi che insomma facevano fino a ieri cose che non c'entrano nulla e che non rendono nemmeno riconoscibile il risultato di un moto elettronico.", "start": 2719.8901, "end": 2759.3}, {"text": "Purtroppo questo \u00e8 oggi un buon far west che 2\u00ba me \u00e8 l'appello che faccio gi\u00e0 da qualche anno alla nostra classe politica di mettere mano magari anche tra noi associandoci facendo delle proposte legislative ma mettere mano a questo campo perch\u00e9 considera Alessandro che ormai che io sappia su 100 consigli d'amministrazione che vanno da non lo so quello di Leonardo al all'ASL di Benevento I 3 quarti sono online quindi chiaramente avere una norma che dice lo puoi fare online se cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 cos\u00ec, se \u00e8 fatto in quest'altro modo, in quest'altro modo, 2\u00ba me \u00e8 la cosa pi\u00f9 auspicabile che si possa desiderare.", "start": 2759.6, "end": 2817.159}], "start": 2719.8901, "end": 2817.159, "num_words": 173.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Grazie 1000 Giovanni.", "start": 2819.619, "end": 2820.599}], "start": 2819.619, "end": 2820.599, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0}]}, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null}], "detected_language": ""}], "utterances": [{"start": 0.08, "end": 9.059999, "confidence": 0.9088572, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Benvenuti e benvenute in questa 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Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie. Grazie.", "words": [{"word": "grazie", "start": 11.759999, "end": 11.839999, "confidence": 0.5463867, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.79506916}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 11.839999, "end": 11.92, "confidence": 0.47320557, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.11925197}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 11.92, "end": 12.0, "confidence": 0.39770508, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.11925197}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 12.0, "end": 12.08, "confidence": 0.36157227, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.11925197}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 12.08, "end": 12.33, "confidence": 0.3720703, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.11925197}, {"word": "grazie", "start": 12.33, "end": 12.83, "confidence": 0.39245605, "punctuated_word": "Grazie.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.11925197}], "speaker": 1, "id": 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