{"metadata": {"transaction_key": "deprecated", "request_id": "01a05201-55f5-7763-b09c-efa8ad3c8d5a", "sha256": "1b23f88a4f5b0d6fade19314e56711dc566630a0c35a1801297d2984ea15f476", "created": "2026-08-30T09:30:16.665Z", "duration": 2834.782, "channels": 1, "models": ["4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766"], "warnings": null, "model_info": {"4accafca-a091-473d-8241-f5a847cb5766": {"name": "2-general-nova", "version": "2024-01-12.30173", "arch": "nova-2"}}, "summary_info": null}, "results": {"channels": [{"search": null, "alternatives": [{"transcript": "Benvenuti e benvenute in una nuova puntata del podcast Democrast Innovator, questa volta siamo qui con Kenobit, Fabio e grazie Fabio intanto per aver accettato di partecipare Piacere mio, grazie dell'invito. S\u00ec, c'era questa Ti vedo bello preso con I social network decentralizzati Giusto un filo, s\u00ec. Ecco, se ti va di raccontarci un pochettino come mai qual \u00e8 stato magari, anche se c'\u00e8 stato un momento della tua vita in cui hai detto Cavolo questa cosa pu\u00f2 servire, cio\u00e8 nel senso pu\u00f2 essere utile veramente alle persone. Allora \u00e8 stata una roba in 2 fasi nel senso che io ho scoperto dell'esistenza di mastodon e quindi poi del Fediverso molti anni fa all'Xm24 incontrando le ragazze della Club dell'Xm24 a Bologna e l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva sta cosa perch\u00e9 1\u00ba non lo sapeva erano tempi molto non sospetti loro sono sempre stati avantissimo e quindi l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva e ho detto interessante eccetera eccetera. Poi nel momento in cui pi\u00f9 che dire potrebbero essere utili alla gente ho pensato con una necessit\u00e0, nel senso che I social commerciali invece centralizzati fanno male \u00e8 stato durante il Covid durante il lockdown abbiamo avuto all'improvviso un momento di iper online. Eravamo gi\u00e0 una societ\u00e0 che stava molto online. Siamo trovate costrette collettivamente a passare ore per lavoro, per qualunque roba. Pure da spesa c'era gente che la faceva con internet a quel punto e stavamo tanto tanto tanto tanto sui social. Ed \u00e8 l\u00ec che 2\u00ba me sono venuti a galla tutti I problemi. O meglio non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero. Tutti I problemi. O meglio, non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero. Erano ed erano gli stessi. Ma l\u00ec \u00e8 quel momento di accelerazione che poi tra l'altro non si \u00e8 riassorbito perch\u00e9 gli strascichi di quanto siamo stati di pi\u00f9 online durante il covid ci sono ancora adesso. Per\u00f2 proprio mi ricordo che in quel momento mi divenne lampante. Io vedevo la gente che io a un certo punto in quel momento ho realizzato che non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro. E come mai non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro? Io ho realizzato che passavo la giornata a leggere gente che litigava su internet per le solite 4 cazzate. Sempre adesso non voglio entrare nel merito dei temi ma c'era quel momento in cui c'era vaccini s\u00ec vaccini no e c'era chi diceva: No, 6 1 6 1 ignorante! No, 6 1 venduto! E io mi ricordo quanto tempo passavo a vedere la gente che litigava. Ho detto: quindi ok non \u00e8 che non riesco pi\u00f9 a leggere, \u00e8 che passo il tempo che 1\u00ba dedicavo alla lettura di un libro di carta o digitale, la passo leggendo Perfetti sconosciuti che litigano. Sempre nello stesso modo su posizioni sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzate. E come mai erano cos\u00ec polarizzate quelle persone e quelle posizioni? Perch\u00e9 \u00e8 facile dire: vabb\u00e8, la gente \u00e8 diventata scema, la gente \u00e8 diventata cattiva. Invece no. Ci sono stati dei leak molto interessanti. Ormai da molti anni sono passati si chiamano I Facebook Papers, un'impiegata di Facebook che tra l'altro chiunque cerchi su Wikipedia anche in italiano c'\u00e8 un bell'articolo sui Facebook Papers e viene fuori che Facebook rilevato che I litigi aumentano l'engagement. E Meta e in generale tutte le piattaforme centralizzate guadagnano in base a quanto vengono usate perch\u00e9 se tu usi l'app 2 ore invece che una hai visto il doppio della pubblicit\u00e0 e hai generato il doppio dei dati personali. Tutte le app commerciali come Facebook Instagram eccetera cercano ciecamente di aumentare a dismisura il tempo in cui tu le utilizzi. E I dati interni di Facebook, I dati che noi gli davamo perch\u00e9 I dati di utilizzo dimostravano che I litigi sono I post migliori perch\u00e9 viene fuori che se io e te litighiamo beh io e te continuiamo a stare sulla piattaforma e in pi\u00f9 il nostro litigio viene guardato per lo stesso fenomeno per cui la gente si ferma a guardare gli incidenti in autostrada e poi magari arriva qualcun altro e quel qualcun altro dice: No, ragione Alessandro! No, ragione Kenobit! E quindi in quel momento detto non solo ci stiamo rincoglioni. Non \u00e8 che non siamo noi che ci stiamo rincoglioni' Le piattaforme che sono diventate il nostro punto di incontro per la socialit\u00e0, la nuova piazzetta, il nuovo muretto sono di propriet\u00e0 privata e sono strutturate non come dei luoghi per farci parlare tra di noi, ma come delle gabbie per farci litigare. Dove tra l'altro e poi ovviamente questa questa per me \u00e8 stata la scintilla perch\u00e9 proprio durante il covid ho detto ma qua stiamo andando a a rotoli stiamo andando a rotoli la se la gente non non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi abbiamo un problema gigante e ci credo che la gente non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi se I nostri luoghi di ritrovo sono diventati dei centri commerciali. Abbiamo avuto una piccola interruzione tecnica. Riprendo il discorso dicendo a un certo punto mi sono reso conto che la cosa estremamente non era che noi eravamo diventati pi\u00f9 stupidi pi\u00f9 polarizzati pi\u00f9 cattivi meno in grado di confrontarci tra di noi semplicemente il nostro luogo di incontro era diventato un centro commerciale. Un centro commerciale tra l'altro gestito nella maniera pi\u00f9 predatoria possibile. E quindi mi \u00e8 sembrato cruciale per qualunque qualsiasi qualsiasi battaglia di tutti I tipi su tutti I fronti avessimo un luogo dove confrontarci e che avessimo un luogo di socialit\u00e0 pensato per farci socializzare e non per metterci in competizione per vendere pi\u00f9 pubblicit\u00e0. Poi ci sono tanti altri motivi ovviamente per il quale I social decentralizzati sono importanti. Per\u00f2 per me la scintilla \u00e8 stata questa. Mi sono proprio reso conto che eravamo degli animali in gabbia pungolati dal capitalismo digitale per litigare tra di noi, per generare profitti per terzi. E non solo: Erano anche gli anni in cui avevamo iniziato a vedere il potenziale incredibile della manipolazione sulle piattaforme. Ho visto come fondi privati hanno portato a grandi stravolgimenti politici come la Brexit, l'ascesa di Donald Trump, il Vini che preso pure I soldi da comunque ho pensato non \u00e8 \u00e8 veramente tragico \u00e8 veramente grave siamo fregati anche tutte le altre nostre battaglie sono ipotecate se noi non riconquistiamo un luogo dove confrontarci, parlare fuori dalla competitivit\u00e0, dal profitto, fuori dalla logica del pi\u00f9 forte e soprattutto se non abbiamo dei posti dove possiamo parlare tra di noi senza dover chiedere il permesso perch\u00e9 l'altro risvolto l'abbiamo negli ultimi anni. Parliamo di Palestina. Parliamo di come se tu scrivi Palestina libera su Instagram il tuo post viene shadow bannato, tu vieni shadow bannato, quindi viene ridotta la tua visibilit\u00e0. Instagram ormai \u00e8 ridicolo. Ci sono I Sex Workker che quando parlano di porno devono mettere l'emoji della della pannocchia perch\u00e9 non puoi scrivere porno. Ci sono gli account che fanno informazione per la Palestina che devono mettere il cocomero che mi fa simpatia il cocomero per\u00f2 ho un problema che per scrivere che non posso scriverti Palestina su una piattaforma che sto usando perch\u00e9 voglio parlare di Palestina E questo \u00e8 l'altro lato del problema. Da un lato queste piattaforme sono tarate per farci litigare in modo da massimizzare il tempo che dedichiamo alla piattaforma e quindi I guadagni. Dall'altro queste piattaforme sono una funzione del capitalismo di neocolonialismo e di tante cose che ci piacerebbe combattere e non sono dei campi neutrali. Sono dei campi neutrali e soprattutto non sono dei campi che ci appartengono. Perch\u00e9 che sia giusto o che sia sbagliato Instagram, TikTok, Meta, X, chi per loro possono arbitrariamente rimuovere, bloccare, penalizzare qualsiasi cosa. Non sono scelte neutrali. E chi le sta facendo queste scelte non neutrali? Pezos, Elon Musk, Zuckerberg tutte persone che c'\u00e8 quella foto di quest'anno o dell'anno scorso, non mi ricordo, molto rappresentativa dell'inaugurazione di Donald Trump con tutti I CEO delle aziende che controllano I social l\u00ec alla sua Corte. Quindi ci sono Le cause principali che mi hanno spinto sono appunto la rivendicazione di uno spazio non competitivo per parlare e la rivendicazione di uno spazio nostro che non ci possa venire tolto. Poi ci sono ovviamente un'infinit\u00e0 di altri temi. Certo. Cio\u00e8 quello di cui hai parlato ci penso appunto all'algoritmo. Quali contenuti ci vengono mostrati, ed \u00e8 molto politica come cosa, se alcuni contenuti non vengono mostrati e magari ne vengono favoriti AAE poi appunto quello che hai detto, scopo ultimo di una piattaforma, appunto di una Big Tech, non \u00e8 quella di farci, come dire, far comunicare le persone, far avvenire uno scambio culturale, sociale, politico, ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi. Ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi. Effettivamente pi\u00f9 siamo polarizzati e pi\u00f9 conveniente per le piattaforme stesse. E tra l'altro mi sono ritrovato in quello che hai detto anche banalmente quello non riuscire pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro. Amo leggere, per\u00f2 poi appunto dici cavolo, il mio cervello 6 abituato Punto, come li hai descritti 1\u00ba. E penso, mi vien da pensare per\u00f2 anche questo, che in questo momento I social network decentralizzati penso quelli del CEE diverso che non vuole essere trovare una criticit\u00e0, per\u00f2 appunto magari uno spunto di riflessione su come in qualche modo seguano alcune dinamiche dei social Facebook, X, per cui che ne so quella del like e quindi mi chiedo anche come magari Scusami di confutare immediatamente quello che hai detto. Certo. Il Like non esiste. Nel senso il Like sul F diverso a meno che tu non sia su dei server che hanno abilitato delle funzioni particolari banalmente sulle principali istanze italiano, il Segre, ida eccetera il esiste il pulsantino like che \u00e8 per\u00f2 \u00e8 come dirti veramente bella l\u00ec, Cio\u00e8 magari non voglio rispondere e ti metto like, ma non nessuna funzione. Il problema del like \u00e8 il meccanismo competitivo che si innesca con la competizione per I like che poi finiscono per deformare I contenuti perch\u00e9 io posso, se io voglio fare un contenuto per massimizzare il numero di volte che la gente clicca su like, faccio delle cose diverse. Infatti su Facebook sono andate quelle cose. Fai mi piace se pensi che abbia ragione lui, fai cuore se pensi che abbia ragione su mastodon o quantomeno sulle istanze italiane di mastodon sono disabilitate tutte le funzioni di trend. Quindi che il tuo post faccia 200 like o ne faccia uno pesa come il mio post che ne fatti 0. Quindi il Like sulfe diverso \u00e8 Sono d'accordo che \u00e8 una vestigia, un qualcosa di Io lo eliminerei del tutto. Per\u00f2 non \u00e8 il Like metrica dell'engagement. \u00c8 un like in amicizia perch\u00e9 non viene contato. Non \u00e8 la base, non \u00e8 una metrica su cui si che regola la visibilit\u00e0. Perch\u00e9 il fatto \u00e8 che meta premia I post con tanti like perch\u00e9 I post con tanti like sono post che stimolano l'engagement e quindi se io faccio un post che stimola l'engagement tu piattaforma meta perch\u00e9 io sono un buon soldatino, un buon lavoratore che fatto un contenuto che fa in modo che la gente interagisca con la tua piattaforma e quindi tu premi con la visibilit\u00e0 I contenuti che fanno like e tutte le altre metriche di engagement. Ma su questa cosa, questa cosa sul Fedeverso non c'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 le timeline sono cronologiche, non c'\u00e8 un algoritmo che seleziona per te E le funzioni di trend non sono usate. O meglio, mastodon vabb\u00e8, per quanto me ne riguarda una gestione che si potrebbe discutere, mastodon l' introdotto come possibilit\u00e0 ma la stragrande maggioranza dei server che conosco io l' disabilitata perch\u00e9 han detto: No guarda caro Yuugen Roco, lo sviluppatore di Mastrodon guarda che se ci mettiamo a premiare I like finiamo finiamo da dove siamo partiti. Quindi c'\u00e8 una sola istanza in Italia che io disprezzo e che lo usa, ma a parte quello tutte le altre istanze non lo utilizzano e quindi il like non \u00e8 una cosa che viene ricalcata dagli altri social. \u00c8 un po' un residuo ancestrale. Scusami, fammi una domanda. No, no, no, hai fatto bene a fare questa precisazione? Perch\u00e9 poi 2\u00ba me va in linea con quello quello che diciamo non so dell'algoritmo, mentre non so, sui social delle Big Tech l'algoritmo non \u00e8 chiaro, se non sappiamo perch\u00e9 il nostro feed \u00e8 composto in un certo modo e in un altro Appunto \u00e8 specificato come un F diverso principalmente sia una timeline, quindi in ordine cronologico, per\u00f2 \u00e8 anche interessante che appunto poi ogni eventualmente comunit\u00e0 online pu\u00f2 decidere se configurare il software in un modo o in un altro. Quindi questa cosa \u00e8 strainteressante. No volevo chiederti in realt\u00e0 era appunto una riflessione, cio\u00e8 volevo partire appunto da una cosa che pensavo, cio\u00e8 quella come effettivamente c'\u00e8 una certa somiglianza con alcune modifiche molto importanti, una somiglianza tra I social del FE diverso e quelli delle Big Tech. Cio\u00e8 nel senso penso come, adesso non mi ricordo, c'era una sorta anche riguardo a Instagram, c'\u00e8 un software che \u00e8 simile. A si ispiri forse AXE non a Facebook, proprio come modalit\u00e0 estetica. E quindi mi chiedo, cio\u00e8 la domanda che volevo farti era appunto andare magari oltre. Come potrebbe essere un social network federato del futuro? Cio\u00e8 nel senso come potresti immaginartelo magari qualcosa di ripensato fatto proprio apposta per andare oltre la polarizzazione per aumentare collaborazione tra le persone? Allora la differenza \u00e8 culturale perch\u00e9 per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 giusto cos\u00ec. Cio\u00e8 nota bene noi qua stiamo parlando di Fediverso che non \u00e8 mastodon, che non \u00e8 pixelfeld. Il fe diverso sono tutti I software che utilizzano il protocollo Activity Pub, Activity Pub, il che vuol dire che il fedeverso \u00e8 fatto da tanti servizi che parlano tutti la stessa lingua. E' come se tu con il tuo account di Instagram potessi parlare con uno su X e seguire un account di YouTube e loggarti su una diretta di TikTok tutto con lo stesso account. Fe diverso non \u00e8 Mastodon, il Fe diverso \u00e8 appunto una rete di software che girano con questo protocollo. Quindi il succo del Fediverso \u00e8 lo scambio di contenuti senza limiti su internet. La forma, l'involucro che gli dai pu\u00f2 cambiare in base ai tuoi gusti, alle tue inclinazioni, alle funzionalit\u00e0 che vuoi. E quindi pu\u00f2 avere 1000 forme perch\u00e9 Mastodon \u00e8 vero, Mastodon si ispira abbastanza come interfaccia e esperienza AXA Twitter. C'\u00e8 Pixelfeld che ricalca Instagram, c'\u00e8 Frendica che ricorda un po' pi\u00f9 Facebook. Per\u00f2 poi c'\u00e8 anche PeerTube che non \u00e8 un social come quelli ma \u00e8 una versione libera e decentralizzata di YouTube. Quello che io credo quindi a livello di struttura il Fediverso per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 permette di avere una grossa rete. Decentralizzata vuol dire che nessuno comanda ma vuol dire anche che \u00e8 gestibile a livello economico. Nel senso che una rete fatta da tanti nodi dove gestire ogni nodo \u00e8 relativamente economico, \u00e8 una cosa che pu\u00f2 crescere dal basso. Se invece volessimo replicare I server di Instagram ci vorrebbero miliardi letteralmente di euro di investimento che non raccoglieremmo mai. \u00c8 decentralizzato, nessuno comanda, I costi sono sostenibili, bassi, ridistribuibili e tutto. Tutti possono parlare con chi vogliono. La moderazione \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 la moderazione dei contenuti \u00e8 da sempre un problema, una questione di ragionamento anche di filosofia politica 2\u00ba me perch\u00e9 io a volte penso che I moderatori sono comunque una forza di polizia per certi versi ma non sto a aprire questo discorso ma anche l\u00ec la bellezza della decentralizzazione \u00e8 che un problema complesso come quello della moderazione pu\u00f2 essere gestito autonomamente da ogni nodo come preferisce e di nuovo \u00e8 un sistema decentralizzato nel quale nessuno pu\u00f2 essere censurato ma al tempo stesso nessuno pu\u00f2 obbligare gli altri ad ascoltarlo. Io e te siamo nella federazione, io ho la mia il mio nodo, la mia istanza, il mio server. Quando dico istanza sto parlando dei nodi, delle parti della rete del Fedediverso. Facciamo che io ho la mia istanza e arrivi tu che ne fondi una per fare qualcosa di turpe? Fai fondi un'istanza di maschilismo radicale dove parli male delle donne e magari usi pure quell'istanza per andare a rompere le palle a quelle donne, beh io non ti posso censurare perch\u00e9 quel tuo server \u00e8 tuo. Poi certo se fai delle cose estremamente illegali magari ti arrivano ti arriva la polizia a casa ma quello \u00e8 un altro discorso per\u00f2 nessuno pu\u00f2 impedire a te di dire quello che vuoi ma nessuno obbliga me ad ascoltarti. Di qua perfetto \u00e8 arrivato Alessandro fatto questa istanza maschilista di merda bon io lo tolgo dalla mia federazione quindi nessuno ti pu\u00f2 censurare nessuno \u00e8 obbligato ad ascoltarti ed \u00e8 2\u00ba me estremamente interessante perch\u00e9 ho fatto l'esempio di qualcosa di turpe ma di non poter essere censurati vuol dire anche poter parlare appunto come dicevamo 1\u00ba parlare di Palestina e di parlare di lotte radicali, parlare di viviamo viviamo in uno stato estremamente estremamente di destra. Potrebbe persino succedere, come in realt\u00e0 gi\u00e0 sta succedendo, e il dissenso diventi illegale. Con la struttura del fe diverso noi possiamo non essere censurati, non essere censurabili. Quindi a livello di struttura per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetto, cio\u00e8 ci d\u00e0 lo strut cosa vuoi di pi\u00f9? Io voglio poter parlare con chi voglio in tutto il mondo, voglio che nessuno comandi, Voglio che I costi siano contenuti. Voglio che il software su cui si basa questa cosa sia libero, quindi trasparente, in modo che io sappia che non c'\u00e8 che non ci sono fregature, furti di dati l\u00ec in mezzo. C'\u00e8 tutto quello che voglio. Cambiamento deve essere culturale. Anche se noi adesso abbiamo il fe diverso, \u00e8 strutturato in maniera radicalmente diversa da Instagram e affini, arriviamo da 15 anni di indottrinamento del content e quindi magari cerchiamo di usare il fee diverso come se fosse Instagram. 2\u00ba me \u00e8 l\u00ec che serve il cambiamento. Perch\u00e9 Instagram ovviamente sostituisci con la piattaforma che preferisci. Furia di scudisciate digitali e manipolazione ci convinto a essere tutti e tutte content creator. 5 anni fa nessuno faceva una foto alla pizza 1\u00ba di mangiarla, e stavamo benissimo lo stesso. Perch\u00e9 ci siamo trovati a fotografare le pizze? Perch\u00e9 quella pizza \u00e8 memorabile. E vabb\u00e8 magari la volta che non ci vediamo che siano unicissimi, non ci vediamo da 6 anni, ci facciamo una foto, quello \u00e8 un altro discorso. Ma la quantit\u00e0 di foto che facciamo e di cose che condividiamo sui social sono inutili, completamente inutili a noi. Sono utili a Instagram perch\u00e9 te che posti la foto della pizza, tieni I contenuti, di engagement, vai avanti, mi acceso il fuoco della piattaforma. Quindi noi ci siamo abituate a creare, contribuire, produrre in continuazione. E non solo: ci siamo abituate a produrre in continuazione tarando la nostra produzione sui feedback che ci vengono dati dai like, dall'algoritmo, dalla visibilit\u00e0. Cio\u00e8 com'\u00e8 che siamo arrivati ad avere quelle ridicole storture dei luoghi bellissimi della natura con 45 minuti di coda e tutta la gente che fa 'sta coda per arrivare l\u00ec e fare una foto da pubblicare. Sono quei meccanismi che sono estremamente nocivi per la nostra vita, per I nostri ritmi e in realt\u00e0 anche per I luoghi e sono frutto dei meccanismi di Instagram, sono frutto dei meccanismi delle piattaforme commerciali. Ce li abbiamo cos\u00ec ingannati che magari quando andiamo sul Fediverso li ricerchiamo o quando andiamo sul Fediverso magari abbiamo lo stesso istinto. All'inizio, ormai \u00e8 un viaggio abbastanza lungo quello che ho fatto sul Fediverso, all'inizio con un passato e quasi un presente da content creator volevo pubblicare un sacco di cose. Le foto le pubblicavo. Adesso, momento in cui non c'\u00e8 nessuna utilit\u00e0 a essere iper produttivi sul Fediverso, ne \u00e8 premiata l'iper produttivit\u00e0 punita la non produttivit\u00e0? Io scrivo molto di meno e non mi verrebbe mai in mente di fare una foto. Certo se faccio una ricetta che \u00e8 venuta bene allora s\u00ec faccio una foto perch\u00e9 voglio condividere quella ricetta ma la foto al 1\u00ba gelato della stagione, la foto al panino, la foto al cane non la pubblico. E di fatto, non volendola pubblicare, non la faccio nemmeno. Non facendola nemmeno, vivo di pi\u00f9. La mia vita non \u00e8 interrotta da questo momento qua. E quindi 2\u00ba me la struttura del Feliverso \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetta. Quello che deve maturare \u00e8 un cambiamento collettivo e culturale. Dobbiamo risvegliarci dalla sbornia del Content e capire che possiamo fare le cose diversamente. Ci vorr\u00e0 del tempo perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 tutti questi meccanismi, le fruste della produttivit\u00e0 su Instagram, sono invisibili ma ci sono. E sono proprio le fruste invisibili che ti lasciano le cicatrici senza che tu te ne accorga. Io credo che la 1\u00ba fase del grande cambiamento sar\u00e0 una dozzina sempre pi\u00f9 non dico di massa, perch\u00e9 non mi interessa. Cio\u00e8 il fatto che Instagram abbia 3000000000 di utenti \u00e8 parte del problema. A me non interessa che il fediverso replichi Instagram e I social commerciali. Non mi interessa anzi sarebbe assolutamente un problema se cos\u00ec fosse. Io penso che la 1\u00ba fase sar\u00e0 l'arrivo di una massa critica, dove con massa critica gi\u00e0 ci siamo, Quanti di persone che tengono acceso un fuoco? E cos\u00ec facendo stimoleranno sempre pi\u00f9 persone a venire a provare il Fediverso con la pubblicit\u00e0 notevole del fatto che su Instagram e sulle piattaforme commerciali si sta sempre peggio. Quindi io credo che la gente sar\u00e0 molto incline a quantomeno dare una possibilit\u00e0 alla differenza. La 2\u00ba fase 2\u00ba me sar\u00e0 quando avremo iniziato a usarlo collettivamente e il fatto di stare su una piattaforma decentralizzata che non \u00e8 strutturata per ottimizzare quanta roba posti e quanto tempo gli dedichi inizieremo a usarle di meno e a usarlo in maniera diversa Che poi alla fine \u00e8 un tenere il focus sul mondo fisico, rapporti veri con le persone. Essere un Per me il traguardo supremo \u00e8 tornare ad avere la piazza. Tornare ad avere Internet come luogo di confronto collettivo, non di propriet\u00e0 di nessuno, non infestato dalla pubblicit\u00e0. E nel momento in cui non c'\u00e8 la pubblicit\u00e0, nel momento in cui lo scopo non \u00e8 farti stare di pi\u00f9 su Internet, I contatti online generano contatti nel mondo fisico. Ed \u00e8 importantissimo vedersi nel mondo fisico, 2\u00ba me, soprattutto per questioni di lotta di classe o carenza della medesima. E 2\u00ba me \u00e8 proprio fondamentale riprendere il digitale per poter ricominciare a combattere nel fisico. Anche perch\u00e9 ne abbiamo un esempio. Quando si parlava di 1\u00ba che arrivasse Facebook 1\u00ba che arrivasse Myspace le comunit\u00e0 su internet si radunavano sui forum. Molti siti avevano il loro forum: erano delle isole, erano delle comunit\u00e0 cos\u00ec dove la gente parlava, erano delle bacheche, dei bulleting board. Ognuno faceva un post, un thread, io potevo commentare sul tuo thread, nasceva delle discussioni, eccetera. Molti non ricordano perch\u00e9 magari anche perch\u00e9 sono nati dopo che esistesse questa code e che dopo la morte di questo fenomeno, ma I forum generavano amicizia nel mondo fisico. Io e te magari interagivamo su questo forum ma ogni tanto ogni tot venivano organizzate delle pizzate, delle birre, degli incontri. Io conosco moltissime persone che hanno trovato l'amore della vita o amicizie, grandi amicizie durature dai raduni dei forum. E I raduni dei forum perch\u00e9 succedevano? Perch\u00e9 lo stare online non era il fine ultimo. Lo stare online era uno dell'et\u00e0 uno dei tanti modi di fare socialit\u00e0, un modo in pi\u00f9 per fare socialit\u00e0. E quindi io sono convinto che si possa reinnescare quel fenomeno che nota bene non \u00e8 un discorso da persona che odi la tecnologia o che odia la che odia l'online, che odia il digitale. A me piace internet, anzi trovo che sia una frontiera enorme di possibilit\u00e0. La cosa che si mette in dubbio non \u00e8 la tecnologia di internet. La cosa che si mette in dubbio \u00e8 come viene usata e da chi viene controllata. Perch\u00e9 la stessa tecnologia pu\u00f2 trasformarsi in una cosa che ci rincoglionisce e ci rende paradossalmente sempre pi\u00f9 soli perch\u00e9 pi\u00f9 tu stai a casa e io sto a casa cos\u00ec a fare doom scrolling pi\u00f9 io e te siamo soli oppure pu\u00f2 essere l'opposto pu\u00f2 essere un meccanismo che fa incontrare me che magari viviamo a centinaia di chilometri di distanza e mi fa sentire meno solo perch\u00e9 dico guarda anche lui fatto quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza. Quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza e a quel punto ci incontriamo, ci conosciamo e la nostra socialit\u00e0 si concretizza e non \u00e8 semplicemente un'esca per tenerci il pi\u00f9 possibile su una piattaforma. Certo, assolutamente concordo con tutto quello che hai detto. E mi chiedo: c'\u00e8 uno stato di recente, diciamo su vari giornali avevamo pubblicato come appunto in America si parlasse di come le Big Tech sostanzialmente, questa cosa dell'interesse, dell'interesse a tenere le persone incollate e quindi ritenendole anche responsabili. Come chiedo da un punto di vista istituzioni, in questo che ruolo potrebbero avere? Cio\u00e8 nel senso, perch\u00e9 da una parte potrebbero realizzare che effettivamente quello cio\u00e8 siamo sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzati su internet. Nel senso, deve essere una cosa, cio\u00e8 la decentralizzazione delle piattaforme va anche in parallelo a una decentralizzazione del potere, perch\u00e9 una centralizzazione delle informazioni poi porta anche una centralizzazione del potere. Mi chiedo se in questo le istituzioni 2\u00ba te potrebbero o dovrebbero avere un ruolo nell'arginare appunto questi algoritmi che noi non conosciamo e ci condizionano e quindi come dire Allora do una risposta da anarchico. \u00c8 ovviamente un tema interessante questo. Io innanzitutto voglio partire da un dato: le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo. \u00c8 passato del tempo, scusami, hanno suonato la porta arrivo subito. Rispondo? Ecco perdonami, scusatemi, \u00e8 una 2\u00ba me molto importante da fare \u00e8 che uno) le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo perch\u00e9 questo problema non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa. Non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa, non \u00e8 nemmeno una roba di 3 anni fa, nemmeno una roba di 5 anni fa. Le istituzioni non hanno fatto niente. E prendiamo siamo in Europa prendiamo l'esempio dell'Unione europea. Solitamente delle nazioni \u00e8 quella un pochettino pi\u00f9 attenta a questi temi. Beh non fatto un cazzo. E quando fatto qualcosa la legge si \u00e8 rivelata insufficiente e inadeguata perch\u00e9 ogni tot multato Meta, multato Instagram, ma \u00e8 lo stesso discorso: se tu 6 1 riccone con la Ferrari e io ti faccio 100 euro di multa perch\u00e9 6 andato troppo veloce in autostrada, tu non te ne freghi. E quello che abbiamo visto sono state s\u00ec le maxi multe, le giga multe miliardarie, ma se io faccio a Meta una multa di 1000000000 e facendo quella parruccheria Meta ne guadagnati 3, quella multa viene considerata un costo operativo. Il massimo che sono riusciti a fare le istituzioni \u00e8 stato fare qualche multa. Non ci hanno tutelato non hanno fatto nulla. Qua il lato anarchico in me vede ci vede una causalit\u00e0, una correlazione, nel senso che nel momento in cui il potere economico pu\u00f2 comprare potere politico, lobbing anche nella comunit\u00e0 europea esiste il lobbing nel momento in cui I miei grandi guadagni possono tradursi in influenza politica in questo caso penso che le istituzioni abbiano proprio una limitazione gigante, perch\u00e9 se la cosa che vuoi regolamentare pi\u00f9 potenza di fuoco di te e pu\u00f2 investire soldi per influenzare le tue decisioni, beh abbiamo un problema. Quindi da un lato penso che invece che dire si potrebbe, non si potrebbe, chiss\u00e0. Io voglio partire constatando che qualunque cosa siano non ci hanno protetto. Non ci hanno protetto, se ci hanno provato hanno fallito miseramente. Mi verrebbe pure da dire che non ci hanno realmente provato. Quindi da questo punto di vista parto da un'enorme, enorme, enorme sfiducia. Detto questo, dovrebbero utilizzarle perch\u00e9 \u00e8 una follia che tu stai hai cos\u00ec tanto della tua comunicazione. Cio\u00e8 noi abbiamo I Presidenti del Consiglio che fanno I comunicati su Facebook. \u00c8 assolutamente pericoloso che la tua comunicazione, le tue attivit\u00e0, alcune cose anche in veste ufficiale siano dipendenti da un servizio privato di un'azienda privata, di una distopia tardo capitalista come negli Stati Uniti, con un re matto e dove abbiamo la dimostrazione che I CEO, le aziende del capitalismo digitale sono non dico asservite ma quantomeno sono alla corte di un sovrano particolarmente capriccioso. Quindi le istituzioni 2\u00ba me dovrebbero affrancarsi dal dovrebbero fare la stessa cosa che facciamo noi dal basso. S\u00ec entrare anche loro nella federazione fare I loro nodi. Questa cosa sta succedendo. Ci sono dei server del fediverso di varie realt\u00e0 dell'Unione Europea e tutto. Quindi semplicemente io penso che le istituzioni potranno a un certo punto A me personalmente non me ne frega niente. E mi avete deluso. Avete permesso chiunque voi siate, anche perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi molto generico, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi che coinvolge tutto lo spettro politico. Anzi \u00e8 un voi che quasi 2\u00ba me la democrazia rappresentativa. Non funzionato, non ci protetto. Guarda cos'\u00e8 successo, Come Guarda come siamo ridotti dal punto di vista digitale e quindi le istituzioni dato di fatto fatto niente o hanno fallito miseramente? Potranno unirsi al gioco e sicuramente unendosi al gioco potranno potranno fare del bene e magari unendosi al gioco potrebbero anche capire alcune cose magari regolamentarle in maniera pi\u00f9 efficiente. Per\u00f2 non penso che saranno le istituzioni a salvarci e penso che sia estremamente non solo ingenuo ma anche controproducente aspettare che siano loro a salvarci. Per me Elf diverso \u00e8 azione diretta digitale. La mia privacy poi ne parliamo poi andiamo avanti ma io intanto scelgo di utilizzare una piattaforma fatta 2\u00ba altri criteri. Poi chiaro sarebbe bellissimo se l'Unione Europea iniziasse a stanziare fondi e a distribuire soldi a gente affinch\u00e9 facesse pi\u00f9 istanze. Ma quello diventar carro dei vincitori a quel 0.2 me le istituzioni potranno saltare sul carro dei vincitori e magari dargli anche una spinta. Ma ci salveremo da tutti. Sempre bene mettersi in gioco. Ti direi di passare all'ultima domanda. 1\u00ba stavi parlando democrazia rappresentativa. Cuscendo forse un attimo fuori dal fede diverso, per\u00f2 in realt\u00e0 neanche tanto perch\u00e9 anche il fede diverso pu\u00f2 centrare in questo. Democrazia rappresentativa adesso la tecnologia in teoria potrebbe anche permetterci altre forme. Uno pu\u00f2 parlare di democrazia diretta, pu\u00f2 essere d'accordo, in disaccordo, eccetera. Ecco, quali sono le tue riflessioni riguardo a questo e poi anche pensando, non so, in Italia c'\u00e8 stato un esperimento che \u00e8 stato quello dei 5 Stelle con la piattaforma Rousseau, \u00e8 andato male, ci sono stati dei problemi, tutto quanto. Io detesto quel verme di Casaleggio che mi spiace sia morto per\u00f2 non si parla, parlo lo detesto perch\u00e9 dato un cattivo nome alla democrazia diretta. Si \u00e8 riempito la bocca di un termine molto importante che \u00e8 democrazia diretta. E poi quando mi dicono: ma Fabio non credi nella democrazia rappresentativa allora in cosa credi? Nella democrazia diretta mi dicono come Rousseau! No Rousseau \u00e8 stata una piattaforma privata non open controllata da un'azienda privata che si \u00e8 appropriata di un concetto bello e complesso come quello della democrazia diretta e l' mandata in Chara. Il mio punto di riferimento su queste cose io consiglio gli scritti di Murray Bookcin, Murray Bookcin come libro mento che scritto tantissime cose molto importanti tra cui anche un libretto che si chiama Democrazia diretta. Il suo pensiero \u00e8 quello che poi ispirato Ochalan e tutta quella che \u00e8 l'esperienza del Rojava dove appunto si parla di confederalismo democratico. \u00c8 una cosa ispirata moltissimo ai pensieri di Bookcin e all'idea di democrazia diretta. Io amo il fediverso anche e soprattutto per questo perch\u00e9 il fediverso \u00e8 una dimostrazione di come una federazione dove il potere distribuito in maniera orizzontale \u00e8 possibile e dimostra anche come potrebbe essere volendo con poco sforzo a livello tecnologico premmo tutte le risorse per immaginare una democrazia diretta del futuro. Non pensavo che finissimo cos\u00ec tanto sull'anarchismo oggi, ma va bene. Se vale in 2 parole proprio di dare diciamo un messaggio alle persone che stanno lavorando sui social network a livello culturale, a livello sociale, sul software, su tool che possano servire alle persone per risolvere conflitti, persone che si stanno impegnando diciamo in questo campo, ecco un messaggio se vuoi mandarlo Ma io direi uno continuiamo a fare quello che state facendo perch\u00e9 sta andando bene 2\u00ba me. Facile vendere disfattismi, ma io vedo una grande crescita su tutti I fronti, vedo uno sviluppo di strumenti, vedo una grande evoluzione e quindi da un lato continuate cos\u00ec e l'altro lato incontriamo. Io penso che sia molto importante dire: Io sogno un pochettino un internazionale del fede diverso. Il fatto che ci ritroviamo un trovarsi nel mondo fisico e iniziare a trattare la battaglia della decentralizzazione come un qualcosa di collettivo. Assolutamente. Grazie Fabio. Perfetto. Grazie di avermi invitato. Grazie a chi ascoltato e scusami se devo scappare. 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0.3889215}], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": {"transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Benvenuti e benvenute in una nuova puntata del podcast Democrast Innovator, questa volta siamo qui con Kenobit, Fabio e grazie Fabio intanto per aver accettato di partecipare\n\nSpeaker 1: Piacere mio, grazie dell'invito.\n\nSpeaker 0: S\u00ec, c'era questa Ti vedo bello preso con I social network decentralizzati\n\nSpeaker 1: Giusto un filo, s\u00ec.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ecco, se ti va di raccontarci un pochettino come mai qual \u00e8 stato magari, anche se c'\u00e8 stato un momento della tua vita in cui hai detto Cavolo questa cosa pu\u00f2 servire, cio\u00e8 nel senso pu\u00f2 essere utile veramente alle persone.\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora \u00e8 stata una roba in 2 fasi nel senso che io ho scoperto dell'esistenza di mastodon e quindi poi del Fediverso molti anni fa all'Xm24 incontrando le ragazze della Club dell'Xm24 a Bologna e l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva sta cosa perch\u00e9 1\u00ba non lo sapeva erano tempi molto non sospetti loro sono sempre stati avantissimo e quindi l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva e ho detto interessante eccetera eccetera. Poi nel momento in cui pi\u00f9 che dire potrebbero essere utili alla gente ho pensato con una necessit\u00e0, nel senso che I social commerciali invece centralizzati fanno male \u00e8 stato durante il Covid durante il lockdown abbiamo avuto all'improvviso un momento di iper online. Eravamo gi\u00e0 una societ\u00e0 che stava molto online. Siamo trovate costrette collettivamente a passare ore per lavoro, per qualunque roba. Pure da spesa c'era gente che la faceva con internet a quel punto e stavamo tanto tanto tanto tanto sui social.\n\nEd \u00e8 l\u00ec che 2\u00ba me sono venuti a galla tutti I problemi. O meglio non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero. Tutti I problemi. O meglio, non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero. Erano ed erano gli stessi.\n\nMa l\u00ec \u00e8 quel momento di accelerazione che poi tra l'altro non si \u00e8 riassorbito perch\u00e9 gli strascichi di quanto siamo stati di pi\u00f9 online durante il covid ci sono ancora adesso. Per\u00f2 proprio mi ricordo che in quel momento mi divenne lampante. Io vedevo la gente che io a un certo punto in quel momento ho realizzato che non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro. E come mai non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro? Io ho realizzato che passavo la giornata a leggere gente che litigava su internet per le solite 4 cazzate.\n\nSempre adesso non voglio entrare nel merito dei temi ma c'era quel momento in cui c'era vaccini s\u00ec vaccini no e c'era chi diceva: No, 6 1 6 1 ignorante! No, 6 1 venduto! E io mi ricordo quanto tempo passavo a vedere la gente che litigava. Ho detto: quindi ok non \u00e8 che non riesco pi\u00f9 a leggere, \u00e8 che passo il tempo che 1\u00ba dedicavo alla lettura di un libro di carta o digitale, la passo leggendo Perfetti sconosciuti che litigano. Sempre nello stesso modo su posizioni sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzate.\n\nE come mai erano cos\u00ec polarizzate quelle persone e quelle posizioni? Perch\u00e9 \u00e8 facile dire: vabb\u00e8, la gente \u00e8 diventata scema, la gente \u00e8 diventata cattiva. Invece no. Ci sono stati dei leak molto interessanti. Ormai da molti anni sono passati si chiamano I Facebook Papers, un'impiegata di Facebook che tra l'altro chiunque cerchi su Wikipedia anche in italiano c'\u00e8 un bell'articolo sui Facebook Papers e viene fuori che Facebook rilevato che I litigi aumentano l'engagement.\n\nE Meta e in generale tutte le piattaforme centralizzate guadagnano in base a quanto vengono usate perch\u00e9 se tu usi l'app 2 ore invece che una hai visto il doppio della pubblicit\u00e0 e hai generato il doppio dei dati personali. Tutte le app commerciali come Facebook Instagram eccetera cercano ciecamente di aumentare a dismisura il tempo in cui tu le utilizzi. E I dati interni di Facebook, I dati che noi gli davamo perch\u00e9 I dati di utilizzo dimostravano che I litigi sono I post migliori perch\u00e9 viene fuori che se io e te litighiamo beh io e te continuiamo a stare sulla piattaforma e in pi\u00f9 il nostro litigio viene guardato per lo stesso fenomeno per cui la gente si ferma a guardare gli incidenti in autostrada e poi magari arriva qualcun altro e quel qualcun altro dice: No, ragione Alessandro! No, ragione Kenobit! E quindi in quel momento detto non solo ci stiamo rincoglioni.\n\nNon \u00e8 che non siamo noi che ci stiamo rincoglioni' Le piattaforme che sono diventate il nostro punto di incontro per la socialit\u00e0, la nuova piazzetta, il nuovo muretto sono di propriet\u00e0 privata e sono strutturate non come dei luoghi per farci parlare tra di noi, ma come delle gabbie per farci litigare. Dove tra l'altro e poi ovviamente questa questa per me \u00e8 stata la scintilla perch\u00e9 proprio durante il covid ho detto ma qua stiamo andando a a rotoli stiamo andando a rotoli la se la gente non non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi abbiamo un problema gigante e ci credo che la gente non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi se I nostri luoghi di ritrovo sono diventati dei centri commerciali. Abbiamo avuto una piccola interruzione tecnica. Riprendo il discorso dicendo a un certo punto mi sono reso conto che\n\nSpeaker 0: la cosa\n\nSpeaker 1: estremamente non era che noi eravamo diventati pi\u00f9 stupidi pi\u00f9 polarizzati pi\u00f9 cattivi meno in grado di confrontarci tra di noi semplicemente il nostro luogo di incontro era diventato un centro commerciale. Un centro commerciale tra l'altro gestito nella maniera pi\u00f9 predatoria possibile. E quindi mi \u00e8 sembrato cruciale per qualunque qualsiasi qualsiasi battaglia di tutti I tipi su tutti I fronti avessimo un luogo dove confrontarci e che avessimo un luogo di socialit\u00e0 pensato per farci socializzare e non per metterci in competizione per vendere pi\u00f9 pubblicit\u00e0. Poi ci sono tanti altri motivi ovviamente per il quale I social decentralizzati sono importanti. Per\u00f2 per me la scintilla \u00e8 stata questa.\n\nMi sono proprio reso conto che eravamo degli animali in gabbia pungolati dal capitalismo digitale per litigare tra di noi, per generare profitti per terzi. E non solo: Erano anche gli anni in cui avevamo iniziato a vedere il potenziale incredibile della manipolazione sulle piattaforme. Ho visto come fondi privati hanno portato a grandi stravolgimenti politici come la Brexit, l'ascesa di Donald Trump, il Vini che preso pure I soldi da comunque ho pensato non \u00e8 \u00e8 veramente tragico \u00e8 veramente grave siamo fregati anche tutte le altre nostre battaglie sono ipotecate se noi non riconquistiamo un luogo dove confrontarci, parlare fuori dalla competitivit\u00e0, dal profitto, fuori dalla logica del pi\u00f9 forte e soprattutto se non abbiamo dei posti dove possiamo parlare tra di noi senza dover chiedere il permesso perch\u00e9 l'altro risvolto l'abbiamo negli ultimi anni. Parliamo di Palestina. Parliamo di come se tu scrivi Palestina libera su Instagram il tuo post viene shadow bannato, tu vieni shadow bannato, quindi viene ridotta la tua visibilit\u00e0.\n\nInstagram ormai \u00e8 ridicolo. Ci sono I Sex Workker che quando parlano di porno devono mettere l'emoji della della pannocchia perch\u00e9 non puoi scrivere porno. Ci sono gli account che fanno informazione per la Palestina che devono mettere il cocomero che mi fa simpatia il cocomero per\u00f2 ho un problema che per scrivere che non posso scriverti Palestina su una piattaforma che sto usando perch\u00e9 voglio parlare di Palestina E questo \u00e8 l'altro lato del problema. Da un lato queste piattaforme sono tarate per farci litigare in modo da massimizzare il tempo che dedichiamo alla piattaforma e quindi I guadagni. Dall'altro queste piattaforme sono una funzione del capitalismo di neocolonialismo e di tante cose che ci piacerebbe combattere e non sono dei campi neutrali.\n\nSono dei campi neutrali e soprattutto non sono dei campi che ci appartengono. Perch\u00e9 che sia giusto o che sia sbagliato Instagram, TikTok, Meta, X, chi per loro possono arbitrariamente rimuovere, bloccare, penalizzare qualsiasi cosa. Non sono scelte neutrali. E chi le sta facendo queste scelte non neutrali? Pezos, Elon Musk, Zuckerberg tutte persone che c'\u00e8 quella foto di quest'anno o dell'anno scorso, non mi ricordo, molto rappresentativa dell'inaugurazione di Donald Trump con tutti I CEO delle aziende che controllano I social l\u00ec alla sua Corte.\n\nQuindi ci sono Le cause principali che mi hanno spinto sono appunto la rivendicazione di uno spazio non competitivo per parlare e la rivendicazione di uno spazio nostro che non ci possa venire tolto. Poi ci sono ovviamente un'infinit\u00e0 di altri temi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo. Cio\u00e8 quello di cui hai parlato ci penso appunto all'algoritmo. Quali contenuti ci vengono mostrati, ed \u00e8 molto politica come cosa, se alcuni contenuti non vengono mostrati e magari ne vengono favoriti AAE poi appunto quello che hai detto, scopo ultimo di una piattaforma, appunto di una Big Tech, non \u00e8 quella di farci, come dire, far comunicare le persone, far avvenire uno scambio culturale, sociale, politico, ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi. Ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi. Effettivamente pi\u00f9 siamo polarizzati e pi\u00f9 conveniente per le piattaforme stesse.\n\nE tra l'altro mi sono ritrovato in quello che hai detto anche banalmente quello non riuscire pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro. Amo leggere, per\u00f2 poi appunto dici cavolo, il mio cervello 6 abituato Punto, come li hai descritti 1\u00ba. E penso, mi vien da pensare per\u00f2 anche questo, che in questo momento I social network decentralizzati penso quelli del CEE diverso che non vuole essere trovare una criticit\u00e0, per\u00f2 appunto magari uno spunto di riflessione su come in qualche modo seguano alcune dinamiche dei social Facebook, X, per cui che ne so quella del like e quindi mi chiedo anche come magari\n\nSpeaker 1: Scusami di confutare immediatamente quello che hai detto.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo.\n\nSpeaker 1: Il Like non esiste. Nel senso il Like sul F diverso a meno che tu non sia su dei server che hanno abilitato delle funzioni particolari banalmente sulle principali istanze italiano, il Segre, ida eccetera il esiste il pulsantino like che \u00e8 per\u00f2 \u00e8 come dirti veramente bella l\u00ec, Cio\u00e8 magari non voglio rispondere e ti metto like, ma non nessuna funzione. Il problema del like \u00e8 il meccanismo competitivo che si innesca con la competizione per I like che poi finiscono per deformare I contenuti perch\u00e9 io posso, se io voglio fare un contenuto per massimizzare il numero di volte che la gente clicca su like, faccio delle cose diverse. Infatti su Facebook sono andate quelle cose. Fai mi piace se pensi che abbia ragione lui, fai cuore se pensi che abbia ragione su mastodon o quantomeno sulle istanze italiane di mastodon sono disabilitate tutte le funzioni di trend.\n\nQuindi che il tuo post faccia 200 like o ne faccia uno pesa come il mio post che ne fatti 0. Quindi il Like sulfe diverso \u00e8 Sono d'accordo che \u00e8 una vestigia, un qualcosa di Io lo eliminerei del tutto. Per\u00f2 non \u00e8 il Like metrica dell'engagement. \u00c8 un like in amicizia perch\u00e9 non viene contato. Non \u00e8 la base, non \u00e8 una metrica su cui si che regola la visibilit\u00e0.\n\nPerch\u00e9 il fatto \u00e8 che meta premia I post con tanti like perch\u00e9 I post con tanti like sono post che stimolano l'engagement e quindi se io faccio un post che stimola l'engagement tu piattaforma meta perch\u00e9 io sono un buon soldatino, un buon lavoratore che fatto un contenuto che fa in modo che la gente interagisca con la tua piattaforma e quindi tu premi con la visibilit\u00e0 I contenuti che fanno like e tutte le altre metriche di engagement. Ma su questa cosa, questa cosa sul Fedeverso non c'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 le timeline sono cronologiche, non c'\u00e8 un algoritmo che seleziona per te E le funzioni di trend non sono usate. O meglio, mastodon vabb\u00e8, per quanto me ne riguarda una gestione che si potrebbe discutere, mastodon l' introdotto come possibilit\u00e0 ma la stragrande maggioranza dei server che conosco io l' disabilitata perch\u00e9 han detto: No guarda caro Yuugen Roco, lo sviluppatore di Mastrodon guarda che se ci mettiamo a premiare I like finiamo finiamo da dove siamo partiti. Quindi c'\u00e8 una sola istanza in Italia che io disprezzo e che lo usa, ma a parte quello tutte le altre istanze non lo utilizzano e quindi il like non \u00e8 una cosa che viene ricalcata dagli altri social.\n\n\u00c8 un po' un residuo ancestrale. Scusami, fammi una\n\nSpeaker 0: domanda. No, no, no, hai fatto bene a fare questa precisazione? Perch\u00e9 poi 2\u00ba me va in linea con quello quello che diciamo non so dell'algoritmo, mentre non so, sui social delle Big Tech l'algoritmo non \u00e8 chiaro, se non sappiamo perch\u00e9 il nostro feed \u00e8 composto in un certo modo e in un altro Appunto \u00e8 specificato come un F diverso principalmente sia una timeline, quindi in ordine cronologico, per\u00f2 \u00e8 anche interessante che appunto poi ogni eventualmente comunit\u00e0 online pu\u00f2 decidere se configurare il software in un modo o in un altro. Quindi questa cosa \u00e8 strainteressante. No volevo chiederti in realt\u00e0 era appunto una riflessione, cio\u00e8 volevo partire appunto da una cosa che pensavo, cio\u00e8 quella come effettivamente c'\u00e8 una certa somiglianza con alcune modifiche molto importanti, una somiglianza tra I social del FE diverso e quelli delle Big Tech.\n\nCio\u00e8 nel senso penso come, adesso non mi ricordo, c'era una sorta anche riguardo a Instagram, c'\u00e8 un software che \u00e8 simile. A si ispiri forse AXE non a Facebook, proprio come modalit\u00e0 estetica. E quindi mi chiedo, cio\u00e8 la domanda che volevo farti era appunto andare magari oltre. Come potrebbe essere un social network federato del futuro? Cio\u00e8 nel senso come potresti immaginartelo magari qualcosa di ripensato fatto proprio apposta per andare oltre la polarizzazione per aumentare collaborazione tra le persone?\n\nAllora\n\nSpeaker 1: la differenza \u00e8 culturale perch\u00e9 per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 giusto cos\u00ec. Cio\u00e8 nota bene noi qua stiamo parlando di Fediverso che non \u00e8 mastodon, che non \u00e8 pixelfeld. Il fe diverso sono tutti I software che utilizzano il protocollo Activity Pub, Activity Pub, il che vuol dire che il fedeverso \u00e8 fatto da tanti servizi che parlano tutti la stessa lingua. E' come se tu con il tuo account di Instagram potessi parlare con uno su X e seguire un account di YouTube e loggarti su una diretta di TikTok tutto con lo stesso account. Fe diverso non \u00e8 Mastodon, il Fe diverso \u00e8 appunto una rete di software che girano con questo protocollo.\n\nQuindi il succo del Fediverso \u00e8 lo scambio di contenuti senza limiti su internet. La forma, l'involucro che gli dai pu\u00f2 cambiare in base ai tuoi gusti, alle tue inclinazioni, alle funzionalit\u00e0 che vuoi. E quindi pu\u00f2 avere 1000 forme perch\u00e9 Mastodon \u00e8 vero, Mastodon si ispira abbastanza come interfaccia e esperienza AXA Twitter. C'\u00e8 Pixelfeld che ricalca Instagram, c'\u00e8 Frendica che ricorda un po' pi\u00f9 Facebook. Per\u00f2 poi c'\u00e8 anche PeerTube che non \u00e8 un social come quelli ma \u00e8 una versione libera e decentralizzata di YouTube.\n\nQuello che io credo quindi a livello di struttura il Fediverso per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 permette di avere una grossa rete. Decentralizzata vuol dire che nessuno comanda ma vuol dire anche che \u00e8 gestibile a livello economico. Nel senso che una rete fatta da tanti nodi dove gestire ogni nodo \u00e8 relativamente economico, \u00e8 una cosa che pu\u00f2 crescere dal basso. Se invece volessimo replicare I server di Instagram ci vorrebbero miliardi letteralmente di euro di investimento che non raccoglieremmo mai. \u00c8 decentralizzato, nessuno comanda, I costi sono sostenibili, bassi, ridistribuibili e tutto.\n\nTutti possono parlare con chi vogliono. La moderazione \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 la moderazione dei contenuti \u00e8 da sempre un problema, una questione di ragionamento anche di filosofia politica 2\u00ba me perch\u00e9 io a volte penso che I moderatori sono comunque una forza di polizia per certi versi ma non sto a aprire questo discorso ma anche l\u00ec la bellezza della decentralizzazione \u00e8 che un problema complesso come quello della moderazione pu\u00f2 essere gestito autonomamente da ogni nodo come preferisce e di nuovo \u00e8 un sistema decentralizzato nel quale nessuno pu\u00f2 essere censurato ma al tempo stesso nessuno pu\u00f2 obbligare gli altri ad ascoltarlo. Io e te siamo nella federazione, io ho la mia il mio nodo, la mia istanza, il mio server. Quando dico istanza sto parlando dei nodi, delle parti della rete del Fedediverso. Facciamo che io ho la mia istanza e arrivi tu che ne fondi una per fare qualcosa di turpe?\n\nFai fondi un'istanza di maschilismo radicale dove parli male delle donne e magari usi pure quell'istanza per andare a rompere le palle a quelle donne, beh io non ti posso censurare perch\u00e9 quel tuo server \u00e8 tuo. Poi certo se fai delle cose estremamente illegali magari ti arrivano ti arriva la polizia a casa ma quello \u00e8 un altro discorso per\u00f2 nessuno pu\u00f2 impedire a te di dire quello che vuoi ma nessuno obbliga me ad ascoltarti. Di qua perfetto \u00e8 arrivato Alessandro fatto questa istanza maschilista di merda bon io lo tolgo dalla mia federazione quindi nessuno ti pu\u00f2 censurare nessuno \u00e8 obbligato ad ascoltarti ed \u00e8 2\u00ba me estremamente interessante perch\u00e9 ho fatto l'esempio di qualcosa di turpe ma di non poter essere censurati vuol dire anche poter parlare appunto come dicevamo 1\u00ba parlare di Palestina e di parlare di lotte radicali, parlare di viviamo viviamo in uno stato estremamente estremamente di destra. Potrebbe persino succedere, come in realt\u00e0 gi\u00e0 sta succedendo, e il dissenso diventi illegale. Con la struttura del fe diverso noi possiamo non essere censurati, non essere censurabili.\n\nQuindi a livello di struttura per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetto, cio\u00e8 ci d\u00e0 lo strut cosa vuoi di pi\u00f9? Io voglio poter parlare con chi voglio in tutto il mondo, voglio che nessuno comandi, Voglio che I costi siano contenuti. Voglio che il software su cui si basa questa cosa sia libero, quindi trasparente, in modo che io sappia che non c'\u00e8 che non ci sono fregature, furti di dati l\u00ec in mezzo. C'\u00e8 tutto quello che voglio. Cambiamento deve essere culturale.\n\nAnche se noi adesso abbiamo il fe diverso, \u00e8 strutturato in maniera radicalmente diversa da Instagram e affini, arriviamo da 15 anni di indottrinamento del content e quindi magari cerchiamo di usare il fee diverso come se fosse Instagram. 2\u00ba me \u00e8 l\u00ec che serve il cambiamento. Perch\u00e9 Instagram ovviamente sostituisci con la piattaforma che preferisci. Furia di scudisciate digitali e manipolazione ci convinto a essere tutti e tutte content creator. 5 anni fa nessuno faceva una foto alla pizza 1\u00ba di mangiarla, e stavamo benissimo lo stesso.\n\nPerch\u00e9 ci siamo trovati a fotografare le pizze? Perch\u00e9 quella pizza \u00e8 memorabile. E vabb\u00e8 magari la volta che non ci vediamo che siano unicissimi, non ci vediamo da 6 anni, ci facciamo una foto, quello \u00e8 un altro discorso. Ma la quantit\u00e0 di foto che facciamo e di cose che condividiamo sui social sono inutili, completamente inutili a noi. Sono utili a Instagram perch\u00e9 te che posti la foto della pizza, tieni I contenuti, di engagement, vai avanti, mi acceso il fuoco della piattaforma.\n\nQuindi noi ci siamo abituate a creare, contribuire, produrre in continuazione. E non solo: ci siamo abituate a produrre in continuazione tarando la nostra produzione sui feedback che ci vengono dati dai like, dall'algoritmo, dalla visibilit\u00e0. Cio\u00e8 com'\u00e8 che siamo arrivati ad avere quelle ridicole storture dei luoghi bellissimi della natura con 45 minuti di coda e tutta la gente che fa 'sta coda per arrivare l\u00ec e fare una foto da pubblicare. Sono quei meccanismi che sono estremamente nocivi per la nostra vita, per I nostri ritmi e in realt\u00e0 anche per I luoghi e sono frutto dei meccanismi di Instagram, sono frutto dei meccanismi delle piattaforme commerciali. Ce li abbiamo cos\u00ec ingannati che magari quando andiamo sul Fediverso li ricerchiamo o quando andiamo sul Fediverso magari abbiamo lo stesso istinto.\n\nAll'inizio, ormai \u00e8 un viaggio abbastanza lungo quello che ho fatto sul Fediverso, all'inizio con un passato e quasi un presente da content creator volevo pubblicare un sacco di cose. Le foto le pubblicavo. Adesso, momento in cui non c'\u00e8 nessuna utilit\u00e0 a essere iper produttivi sul Fediverso, ne \u00e8 premiata l'iper produttivit\u00e0 punita la non produttivit\u00e0? Io scrivo molto di meno e non mi verrebbe mai in mente di fare una foto. Certo se faccio una ricetta che \u00e8 venuta bene allora s\u00ec faccio una foto perch\u00e9 voglio condividere quella ricetta ma la foto al 1\u00ba gelato della stagione, la foto al panino, la foto al cane non la pubblico.\n\nE di fatto, non volendola pubblicare, non la faccio nemmeno. Non facendola nemmeno, vivo di pi\u00f9. La mia vita non \u00e8 interrotta da questo momento qua. E quindi 2\u00ba me la struttura del Feliverso \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetta. Quello che deve maturare \u00e8 un cambiamento collettivo e culturale.\n\nDobbiamo risvegliarci dalla sbornia del Content e capire che possiamo fare le cose diversamente. Ci vorr\u00e0 del tempo perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 tutti questi meccanismi, le fruste della produttivit\u00e0 su Instagram, sono invisibili ma ci sono. E sono proprio le fruste invisibili che ti lasciano le cicatrici senza che tu te ne accorga. Io credo che la 1\u00ba fase del grande cambiamento sar\u00e0 una dozzina sempre pi\u00f9 non dico di massa, perch\u00e9 non mi interessa. Cio\u00e8 il fatto che Instagram abbia 3000000000 di utenti \u00e8 parte del problema.\n\nA me non interessa che il fediverso replichi Instagram e I social commerciali. Non mi interessa anzi sarebbe assolutamente un problema se cos\u00ec fosse. Io penso che la 1\u00ba fase sar\u00e0 l'arrivo di una massa critica, dove con massa critica gi\u00e0 ci siamo, Quanti di persone che tengono acceso un fuoco? E cos\u00ec facendo stimoleranno sempre pi\u00f9 persone a venire a provare il Fediverso con la pubblicit\u00e0 notevole del fatto che su Instagram e sulle piattaforme commerciali si sta sempre peggio. Quindi io credo che la gente sar\u00e0 molto incline a quantomeno dare una possibilit\u00e0 alla differenza.\n\nLa 2\u00ba fase 2\u00ba me sar\u00e0 quando avremo iniziato a usarlo collettivamente e il fatto di stare su una piattaforma decentralizzata che non \u00e8 strutturata per ottimizzare quanta roba posti e quanto tempo gli dedichi inizieremo a usarle di meno e a usarlo in maniera diversa Che poi alla fine \u00e8 un tenere il focus sul mondo fisico, rapporti veri con le persone. Essere un Per me il traguardo supremo \u00e8 tornare ad avere la piazza. Tornare ad avere Internet come luogo di confronto collettivo, non di propriet\u00e0 di nessuno, non infestato dalla pubblicit\u00e0. E nel momento in cui non c'\u00e8 la pubblicit\u00e0, nel momento in cui lo scopo non \u00e8 farti stare di pi\u00f9 su Internet, I contatti online generano contatti nel mondo fisico. Ed \u00e8 importantissimo vedersi nel mondo fisico, 2\u00ba me, soprattutto per questioni di lotta di classe o carenza della medesima.\n\nE 2\u00ba me \u00e8 proprio fondamentale riprendere il digitale per poter ricominciare a combattere nel fisico. Anche perch\u00e9 ne abbiamo un esempio. Quando si parlava di 1\u00ba che arrivasse Facebook 1\u00ba che arrivasse Myspace le comunit\u00e0 su internet si radunavano sui forum. Molti siti avevano il loro forum: erano delle isole, erano delle comunit\u00e0 cos\u00ec dove la gente parlava, erano delle bacheche, dei bulleting board. Ognuno faceva un post, un thread, io potevo commentare sul tuo thread, nasceva delle discussioni, eccetera.\n\nMolti non ricordano perch\u00e9 magari anche perch\u00e9 sono nati dopo che esistesse questa code e che dopo la morte di questo fenomeno, ma I forum generavano amicizia nel mondo fisico. Io e te magari interagivamo su questo forum ma ogni tanto ogni tot venivano organizzate delle pizzate, delle birre, degli incontri. Io conosco moltissime persone che hanno trovato l'amore della vita o amicizie, grandi amicizie durature dai raduni dei forum. E I raduni dei forum perch\u00e9 succedevano? Perch\u00e9 lo stare online non era il fine ultimo.\n\nLo stare online era uno dell'et\u00e0 uno dei tanti modi di fare socialit\u00e0, un modo in pi\u00f9 per fare socialit\u00e0. E quindi io sono convinto che si possa reinnescare quel fenomeno che nota bene non \u00e8 un discorso da persona che odi la tecnologia o che odia la che odia l'online, che odia il digitale. A me piace internet, anzi trovo che sia una frontiera enorme di possibilit\u00e0. La cosa che si mette in dubbio non \u00e8 la tecnologia di internet. La cosa che si mette in dubbio \u00e8 come viene usata e da chi viene controllata.\n\nPerch\u00e9 la stessa tecnologia pu\u00f2 trasformarsi in una cosa che ci rincoglionisce e ci rende paradossalmente sempre pi\u00f9 soli perch\u00e9 pi\u00f9 tu stai a casa e io sto a casa cos\u00ec a fare doom scrolling pi\u00f9 io e te siamo soli oppure pu\u00f2 essere l'opposto pu\u00f2 essere un meccanismo che fa incontrare me che magari viviamo a centinaia di chilometri di distanza e mi fa sentire meno solo perch\u00e9 dico guarda anche lui fatto quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza. Quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza e a quel punto ci incontriamo, ci conosciamo e la nostra socialit\u00e0 si concretizza e non \u00e8 semplicemente un'esca per tenerci il pi\u00f9 possibile su una piattaforma.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo, assolutamente concordo con tutto quello che hai detto. E mi chiedo: c'\u00e8 uno stato di recente, diciamo su vari giornali avevamo pubblicato come appunto in America si parlasse di come le Big Tech sostanzialmente, questa cosa dell'interesse, dell'interesse a tenere le persone incollate e quindi ritenendole anche responsabili. Come chiedo da un punto di vista istituzioni, in questo che ruolo potrebbero avere? Cio\u00e8 nel senso, perch\u00e9 da una parte potrebbero realizzare che effettivamente quello cio\u00e8 siamo sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzati su internet. Nel senso, deve essere una cosa, cio\u00e8 la decentralizzazione delle piattaforme va anche in parallelo a una decentralizzazione del potere, perch\u00e9 una centralizzazione delle informazioni poi porta anche una centralizzazione del potere.\n\nMi chiedo se in questo le istituzioni 2\u00ba te potrebbero o dovrebbero avere un ruolo nell'arginare appunto questi algoritmi che noi non conosciamo e ci condizionano e quindi come dire\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora do una risposta da anarchico. \u00c8 ovviamente un tema interessante questo. Io innanzitutto voglio partire da un dato: le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo. \u00c8 passato del tempo, scusami, hanno suonato la porta arrivo subito. Rispondo?\n\nEcco perdonami, scusatemi, \u00e8 una 2\u00ba me molto importante da fare \u00e8 che uno) le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo perch\u00e9 questo problema non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa. Non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa, non \u00e8 nemmeno una roba di 3 anni fa, nemmeno una roba di 5 anni fa. Le istituzioni non hanno fatto niente. E prendiamo siamo in Europa prendiamo l'esempio dell'Unione europea. Solitamente delle nazioni \u00e8 quella un pochettino pi\u00f9 attenta a questi temi.\n\nBeh non fatto un cazzo. E quando fatto qualcosa la legge si \u00e8 rivelata insufficiente e inadeguata perch\u00e9 ogni tot multato Meta, multato Instagram, ma \u00e8 lo stesso discorso: se tu 6 1 riccone con la Ferrari e io ti faccio 100 euro di multa perch\u00e9 6 andato troppo veloce in autostrada, tu non te ne freghi. E quello che abbiamo visto sono state s\u00ec le maxi multe, le giga multe miliardarie, ma se io faccio a Meta una multa di 1000000000 e facendo quella parruccheria Meta ne guadagnati 3, quella multa viene considerata un costo operativo. Il massimo che sono riusciti a fare le istituzioni \u00e8 stato fare qualche multa. Non ci hanno tutelato non hanno fatto nulla.\n\nQua il lato anarchico in me vede ci vede una causalit\u00e0, una correlazione, nel senso che nel momento in cui il potere economico pu\u00f2 comprare potere politico, lobbing anche nella comunit\u00e0 europea esiste il lobbing nel momento in cui I miei grandi guadagni possono tradursi in influenza politica in questo caso penso che le istituzioni abbiano proprio una limitazione gigante, perch\u00e9 se la cosa che vuoi regolamentare pi\u00f9 potenza di fuoco di te e pu\u00f2 investire soldi per influenzare le tue decisioni, beh abbiamo un problema. Quindi da un lato penso che invece che dire si potrebbe, non si potrebbe, chiss\u00e0. Io voglio partire constatando che qualunque cosa siano non ci hanno protetto. Non ci hanno protetto, se ci hanno provato hanno fallito miseramente. Mi verrebbe pure da dire che non ci hanno realmente provato.\n\nQuindi da questo punto di vista parto da un'enorme, enorme, enorme sfiducia. Detto questo, dovrebbero utilizzarle perch\u00e9 \u00e8 una follia che tu stai hai cos\u00ec tanto della tua comunicazione. Cio\u00e8 noi abbiamo I Presidenti del Consiglio che fanno I comunicati su Facebook. \u00c8 assolutamente pericoloso che la tua comunicazione, le tue attivit\u00e0, alcune cose anche in veste ufficiale siano dipendenti da un servizio privato di un'azienda privata, di una distopia tardo capitalista come negli Stati Uniti, con un re matto e dove abbiamo la dimostrazione che I CEO, le aziende del capitalismo digitale sono non dico asservite ma quantomeno sono alla corte di un sovrano particolarmente capriccioso. Quindi le istituzioni 2\u00ba me dovrebbero affrancarsi dal dovrebbero fare la stessa cosa che facciamo noi dal basso.\n\nS\u00ec entrare anche loro nella federazione fare I loro nodi. Questa cosa sta succedendo. Ci sono dei server del fediverso di varie realt\u00e0 dell'Unione Europea e tutto. Quindi semplicemente io penso che le istituzioni potranno a un certo punto A me personalmente non me ne frega niente. E mi avete deluso.\n\nAvete permesso chiunque voi siate, anche perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi molto generico, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi che coinvolge tutto lo spettro politico. Anzi \u00e8 un voi che quasi 2\u00ba me la democrazia rappresentativa. Non funzionato, non ci protetto. Guarda cos'\u00e8 successo, Come Guarda come siamo ridotti dal punto di vista digitale e quindi le istituzioni dato di fatto fatto niente o hanno fallito miseramente? Potranno unirsi al gioco e sicuramente unendosi al gioco potranno potranno fare del bene e magari unendosi al gioco potrebbero anche capire alcune cose magari regolamentarle in maniera pi\u00f9 efficiente.\n\nPer\u00f2 non penso che saranno le istituzioni a salvarci e penso che sia estremamente non solo ingenuo ma anche controproducente aspettare che siano loro a salvarci. Per me Elf diverso \u00e8 azione diretta digitale. La mia privacy poi ne parliamo poi andiamo avanti ma io intanto scelgo di utilizzare una piattaforma fatta 2\u00ba altri criteri. Poi chiaro sarebbe bellissimo se l'Unione Europea iniziasse a stanziare fondi e a distribuire soldi a gente affinch\u00e9 facesse pi\u00f9 istanze. Ma quello diventar carro dei vincitori a quel 0.2 me le istituzioni potranno saltare sul carro dei vincitori e magari dargli anche una spinta.\n\nMa ci salveremo da\n\nSpeaker 0: tutti. Sempre bene mettersi in gioco.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ti direi di passare all'ultima domanda.\n\nSpeaker 0: 1\u00ba stavi parlando democrazia rappresentativa. Cuscendo forse un attimo fuori dal fede diverso, per\u00f2 in realt\u00e0 neanche tanto perch\u00e9 anche il fede diverso pu\u00f2 centrare in questo. Democrazia rappresentativa adesso la tecnologia in teoria potrebbe anche permetterci altre forme. Uno pu\u00f2 parlare di democrazia diretta, pu\u00f2 essere d'accordo, in disaccordo, eccetera. Ecco, quali sono le tue riflessioni riguardo a questo e poi anche pensando, non so, in Italia c'\u00e8 stato un esperimento che \u00e8 stato quello dei 5 Stelle con la piattaforma Rousseau, \u00e8 andato male, ci sono stati dei problemi, tutto quanto.\n\nSpeaker 1: Io detesto quel verme di Casaleggio che mi spiace sia morto per\u00f2 non si parla, parlo lo detesto perch\u00e9 dato un cattivo nome alla democrazia diretta. Si \u00e8 riempito la bocca di un termine molto importante che \u00e8 democrazia diretta. E poi quando mi dicono: ma Fabio non credi nella democrazia rappresentativa allora in cosa credi? Nella democrazia diretta mi dicono come Rousseau! No Rousseau \u00e8 stata una piattaforma privata non open controllata da un'azienda privata che si \u00e8 appropriata di un concetto bello e complesso come quello della democrazia diretta e l' mandata in Chara.\n\nIl mio punto di riferimento su queste cose io consiglio gli scritti di Murray Bookcin, Murray Bookcin come libro mento che scritto tantissime cose molto importanti tra cui anche un libretto che si chiama Democrazia diretta. Il suo pensiero \u00e8 quello che poi ispirato Ochalan e tutta quella che \u00e8 l'esperienza del Rojava dove appunto si parla di confederalismo democratico. \u00c8 una cosa ispirata moltissimo ai pensieri di Bookcin e all'idea di democrazia diretta. Io amo il fediverso anche e soprattutto per questo perch\u00e9 il fediverso \u00e8 una dimostrazione di come una federazione dove il potere distribuito in maniera orizzontale \u00e8 possibile e dimostra anche come potrebbe essere volendo con poco sforzo a livello tecnologico premmo tutte le risorse per immaginare una democrazia diretta del futuro. Non pensavo che finissimo cos\u00ec tanto sull'anarchismo oggi, ma va bene.\n\nSpeaker 0: Se vale in 2 parole proprio di dare diciamo un messaggio alle persone che stanno lavorando sui social network a livello culturale, a livello sociale, sul software, su tool che possano servire alle persone per risolvere conflitti, persone che si stanno impegnando diciamo in questo campo, ecco un messaggio se vuoi mandarlo\n\nSpeaker 1: Ma io direi uno continuiamo a fare quello che state facendo perch\u00e9 sta andando bene 2\u00ba me. Facile vendere disfattismi, ma io vedo una grande crescita su tutti I fronti, vedo uno sviluppo di strumenti, vedo una grande evoluzione e quindi da un lato continuate cos\u00ec e l'altro lato incontriamo. Io penso che sia molto importante dire: Io sogno un pochettino un internazionale del fede diverso. Il fatto che ci ritroviamo un trovarsi nel mondo fisico e iniziare a trattare la battaglia della decentralizzazione come un qualcosa di collettivo.\n\nSpeaker 0: Assolutamente. Grazie Fabio. Perfetto.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie di avermi invitato. Grazie a chi ascoltato e scusami se devo scappare. Rapidamente.", "paragraphs": [{"sentences": [{"text": "Benvenuti e benvenute in una nuova puntata del podcast Democrast Innovator, questa volta siamo qui con Kenobit, Fabio e grazie Fabio intanto per aver accettato di partecipare", "start": 0.16, "end": 12.58}], "start": 0.16, "end": 12.58, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Piacere mio, grazie dell'invito.", "start": 14.504999, "end": 16.285}], "start": 14.504999, "end": 16.285, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "S\u00ec, c'era questa Ti vedo bello preso con I social network decentralizzati", "start": 17.865, "end": 22.525}], "start": 17.865, "end": 22.525, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Giusto un filo, s\u00ec.", "start": 23.785, "end": 25.005}], "start": 23.785, "end": 25.005, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ecco, se ti va di raccontarci un pochettino come mai qual \u00e8 stato magari, anche se c'\u00e8 stato un momento della tua vita in cui hai detto Cavolo questa cosa pu\u00f2 servire, cio\u00e8 nel senso pu\u00f2 essere utile veramente alle persone.", "start": 26.44, "end": 38.22}], "start": 26.44, "end": 38.22, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora \u00e8 stata una roba in 2 fasi nel senso che io ho scoperto dell'esistenza di mastodon e quindi poi del Fediverso molti anni fa all'Xm24 incontrando le ragazze della Club dell'Xm24 a Bologna e l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva sta cosa perch\u00e9 1\u00ba non lo sapeva erano tempi molto non sospetti loro sono sempre stati avantissimo e quindi l\u00ec ho scoperto che esisteva e ho detto interessante eccetera eccetera.", "start": 39.344997, "end": 79.065}, {"text": "Poi nel momento in cui pi\u00f9 che dire potrebbero essere utili alla gente ho pensato con una necessit\u00e0, nel senso che I social commerciali invece centralizzati fanno male \u00e8 stato durante il Covid durante il lockdown abbiamo avuto all'improvviso un momento di iper online.", "start": 79.125, "end": 109.4}, {"text": "Eravamo gi\u00e0 una societ\u00e0 che stava molto online.", "start": 110.5, "end": 112.92}, {"text": "Siamo trovate costrette collettivamente a passare ore per lavoro, per qualunque roba.", "start": 113.94, "end": 121.315}, {"text": "Pure da spesa c'era gente che la faceva con internet a quel punto e stavamo tanto tanto tanto tanto sui social.", "start": 121.315, "end": 128.855}], "start": 39.344997, "end": 128.855, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ed \u00e8 l\u00ec che 2\u00ba me sono venuti a galla tutti I problemi.", "start": 130.115, "end": 132.627}, {"text": "O meglio non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero.", "start": 132.627, "end": 133.425}, {"text": "Tutti I problemi.", "start": 133.5, "end": 134.18}, {"text": "O meglio, non \u00e8 che 1\u00ba I problemi non ci fossero.", "start": 134.18, "end": 137.84}, {"text": "Erano ed erano gli stessi.", "start": 138.46, "end": 140.62}], "start": 130.115, "end": 140.62, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ma l\u00ec \u00e8 quel momento di accelerazione che poi tra l'altro non si \u00e8 riassorbito perch\u00e9 gli strascichi di quanto siamo stati di pi\u00f9 online durante il covid ci sono ancora adesso.", "start": 140.62, "end": 152.925}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 proprio mi ricordo che in quel momento mi divenne lampante.", "start": 153.065, "end": 157.88501}, {"text": "Io vedevo la gente che io a un certo punto in quel momento ho realizzato che non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro.", "start": 161.08, "end": 166.78}, {"text": "E come mai non riuscivo pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro?", "start": 167.64, "end": 170.28}, {"text": "Io ho realizzato che passavo la giornata a leggere gente che litigava su internet per le solite 4 cazzate.", "start": 170.28, "end": 179.855}], "start": 140.62, "end": 179.855, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Sempre adesso non voglio entrare nel merito dei temi ma c'era quel momento in cui c'era vaccini s\u00ec vaccini no e c'era chi diceva: No, 6 1 6 1 ignorante!", "start": 180.715, "end": 189.29}, {"text": "No, 6 1 venduto!", "start": 189.43, "end": 190.49}, {"text": "E io mi ricordo quanto tempo passavo a vedere la gente che litigava.", "start": 193.03, "end": 198.81}, {"text": "Ho detto: quindi ok non \u00e8 che non riesco pi\u00f9 a leggere, \u00e8 che passo il tempo che 1\u00ba dedicavo alla lettura di un libro di carta o digitale, la passo leggendo Perfetti sconosciuti che litigano.", "start": 200.345, "end": 215.645}, {"text": "Sempre nello stesso modo su posizioni sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzate.", "start": 216.37, "end": 220.15}], "start": 180.715, "end": 220.15, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E come mai erano cos\u00ec polarizzate quelle persone e quelle posizioni?", "start": 222.61, "end": 227.11}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 \u00e8 facile dire: vabb\u00e8, la gente \u00e8 diventata scema, la gente \u00e8 diventata cattiva.", "start": 227.81, "end": 233.46501}, {"text": "Invece no.", "start": 233.46501, "end": 234.725}, {"text": "Ci sono stati dei leak molto interessanti.", "start": 234.985, "end": 238.445}, {"text": "Ormai da molti anni sono passati si chiamano I Facebook Papers, un'impiegata di Facebook che tra l'altro chiunque cerchi su Wikipedia anche in italiano c'\u00e8 un bell'articolo sui Facebook Papers e viene fuori che Facebook rilevato che I litigi aumentano l'engagement.", "start": 238.74501, "end": 264.985}], "start": 222.61, "end": 264.985, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E Meta e in generale tutte le piattaforme centralizzate guadagnano in base a quanto vengono usate perch\u00e9 se tu usi l'app 2 ore invece che una hai visto il doppio della pubblicit\u00e0 e hai generato il doppio dei dati personali.", "start": 267.525, "end": 282.05}, {"text": "Tutte le app commerciali come Facebook Instagram eccetera cercano ciecamente di aumentare a dismisura il tempo in cui tu le utilizzi.", "start": 283.39, "end": 294.91498}, {"text": "E I dati interni di Facebook, I dati che noi gli davamo perch\u00e9 I dati di utilizzo dimostravano che I litigi sono I post migliori perch\u00e9 viene fuori che se io e te litighiamo beh io e te continuiamo a stare sulla piattaforma e in pi\u00f9 il nostro litigio viene guardato per lo stesso fenomeno per cui la gente si ferma a guardare gli incidenti in autostrada e poi magari arriva qualcun altro e quel qualcun altro dice: No, ragione Alessandro!", "start": 294.91498, "end": 324.335}, {"text": "No, ragione Kenobit!", "start": 324.635, "end": 325.79498}, {"text": "E quindi in quel momento detto non solo ci stiamo rincoglioni.", "start": 325.79498, "end": 333.995}], "start": 267.525, "end": 333.995, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Non \u00e8 che non siamo noi che ci stiamo rincoglioni' Le piattaforme che sono diventate il nostro punto di incontro per la socialit\u00e0, la nuova piazzetta, il nuovo muretto sono di propriet\u00e0 privata e sono strutturate non come dei luoghi per farci parlare tra di noi, ma come delle gabbie per farci litigare.", "start": 333.995, "end": 359.075}, {"text": "Dove tra l'altro e poi ovviamente questa questa per me \u00e8 stata la scintilla perch\u00e9 proprio durante il covid ho detto ma qua stiamo andando a a rotoli stiamo andando a rotoli la se la gente non non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi abbiamo un problema gigante e ci credo che la gente non riesce pi\u00f9 a parlarsi se I nostri luoghi di ritrovo sono diventati dei centri commerciali.", "start": 359.775, "end": 383.435}, {"text": "Abbiamo avuto una piccola interruzione tecnica.", "start": 383.575, "end": 386.635}, {"text": "Riprendo il discorso dicendo a un certo punto mi sono reso conto che", "start": 388.375, "end": 392.475}], "start": 333.995, "end": 392.475, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "la cosa", "start": 393.08, "end": 393.32}], "start": 393.08, "end": 393.32, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "estremamente non era che noi eravamo diventati pi\u00f9 stupidi pi\u00f9 polarizzati pi\u00f9 cattivi meno in grado di confrontarci tra di noi semplicemente il nostro luogo di incontro era diventato un centro commerciale.", "start": 393.32, "end": 407.34}, {"text": "Un centro commerciale tra l'altro gestito nella maniera pi\u00f9 predatoria possibile.", "start": 408.035, "end": 413.95502}, {"text": "E quindi mi \u00e8 sembrato cruciale per qualunque qualsiasi qualsiasi battaglia di tutti I tipi su tutti I fronti avessimo un luogo dove confrontarci e che avessimo un luogo di socialit\u00e0 pensato per farci socializzare e non per metterci in competizione per vendere pi\u00f9 pubblicit\u00e0.", "start": 413.95502, "end": 437.315}, {"text": "Poi ci sono tanti altri motivi ovviamente per il quale I social decentralizzati sono importanti.", "start": 437.535, "end": 446.655}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 per me la scintilla \u00e8 stata questa.", "start": 446.655, "end": 448.495}], "start": 393.32, "end": 448.495, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Mi sono proprio reso conto che eravamo degli animali in gabbia pungolati dal capitalismo digitale per litigare tra di noi, per generare profitti per terzi.", "start": 448.495, "end": 462.41998}, {"text": "E non solo: Erano anche gli anni in cui avevamo iniziato a vedere il potenziale incredibile della manipolazione sulle piattaforme.", "start": 462.88, "end": 475.415}, {"text": "Ho visto come fondi privati hanno portato a grandi stravolgimenti politici come la Brexit, l'ascesa di Donald Trump, il Vini che preso pure I soldi da comunque ho pensato non \u00e8 \u00e8 veramente tragico \u00e8 veramente grave siamo fregati anche tutte le altre nostre battaglie sono ipotecate se noi non riconquistiamo un luogo dove confrontarci, parlare fuori dalla competitivit\u00e0, dal profitto, fuori dalla logica del pi\u00f9 forte e soprattutto se non abbiamo dei posti dove possiamo parlare tra di noi senza dover chiedere il permesso perch\u00e9 l'altro risvolto l'abbiamo negli ultimi anni.", "start": 476.13, "end": 533.25}, {"text": "Parliamo di Palestina.", "start": 533.25, "end": 534.31}, {"text": "Parliamo di come se tu scrivi Palestina libera su Instagram il tuo post viene shadow bannato, tu vieni shadow bannato, quindi viene ridotta la tua visibilit\u00e0.", "start": 534.57, "end": 546.79004}], "start": 448.495, "end": 546.79004, "num_words": 166.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Instagram ormai \u00e8 ridicolo.", "start": 548.025, "end": 549.565}, {"text": "Ci sono I Sex Workker che quando parlano di porno devono mettere l'emoji della della pannocchia perch\u00e9 non puoi scrivere porno.", "start": 549.705, "end": 560.445}, {"text": "Ci sono gli account che fanno informazione per la Palestina che devono mettere il cocomero che mi fa simpatia il cocomero per\u00f2 ho un problema che per scrivere che non posso scriverti Palestina su una piattaforma che sto usando perch\u00e9 voglio parlare di Palestina E questo \u00e8 l'altro lato del problema.", "start": 561.12, "end": 580.485}, {"text": "Da un lato queste piattaforme sono tarate per farci litigare in modo da massimizzare il tempo che dedichiamo alla piattaforma e quindi I guadagni.", "start": 580.485, "end": 589.145}, {"text": "Dall'altro queste piattaforme sono una funzione del capitalismo di neocolonialismo e di tante cose che ci piacerebbe combattere e non sono dei campi neutrali.", "start": 589.54, "end": 600.84}], "start": 548.025, "end": 600.84, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Sono dei campi neutrali e soprattutto non sono dei campi che ci appartengono.", "start": 601.47504, "end": 604.935}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 che sia giusto o che sia sbagliato Instagram, TikTok, Meta, X, chi per loro possono arbitrariamente rimuovere, bloccare, penalizzare qualsiasi cosa.", "start": 605.47504, "end": 620.9}, {"text": "Non sono scelte neutrali.", "start": 621.12, "end": 622.56}, {"text": "E chi le sta facendo queste scelte non neutrali?", "start": 622.56, "end": 625.3}, {"text": "Pezos, Elon Musk, Zuckerberg tutte persone che c'\u00e8 quella foto di quest'anno o dell'anno scorso, non mi ricordo, molto rappresentativa dell'inaugurazione di Donald Trump con tutti I CEO delle aziende che controllano I social l\u00ec alla sua Corte.", "start": 626.24, "end": 649.87006}], "start": 601.47504, "end": 649.87006, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi ci sono Le cause principali che mi hanno spinto sono appunto la rivendicazione di uno spazio non competitivo per parlare e la rivendicazione di uno spazio nostro che non ci possa venire tolto.", "start": 650.17004, "end": 667.055}, {"text": "Poi ci sono ovviamente un'infinit\u00e0 di altri temi.", "start": 667.275, "end": 670.815}], "start": 650.17004, "end": 670.815, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo.", "start": 672.43, "end": 672.93}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 quello di cui hai parlato ci penso appunto all'algoritmo.", "start": 674.03, "end": 676.29004}, {"text": "Quali contenuti ci vengono mostrati, ed \u00e8 molto politica come cosa, se alcuni contenuti non vengono mostrati e magari ne vengono favoriti AAE poi appunto quello che hai detto, scopo ultimo di una piattaforma, appunto di una Big Tech, non \u00e8 quella di farci, come dire, far comunicare le persone, far avvenire uno scambio culturale, sociale, politico, ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi.", "start": 676.91003, "end": 700.555}, {"text": "Ma quello di estrarre profitto da questi scambi.", "start": 701.45, "end": 705.71}, {"text": "Effettivamente pi\u00f9 siamo polarizzati e pi\u00f9 conveniente per le piattaforme stesse.", "start": 705.77, "end": 709.39}], "start": 672.43, "end": 709.39, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E tra l'altro mi sono ritrovato in quello che hai detto anche banalmente quello non riuscire pi\u00f9 a leggere un libro.", "start": 709.41003, "end": 714.75}, {"text": "Amo leggere, per\u00f2 poi appunto dici cavolo, il mio cervello 6 abituato Punto, come li hai descritti 1\u00ba.", "start": 715.72504, "end": 733.12006}, {"text": "E penso, mi vien da pensare per\u00f2 anche questo, che in questo momento I social network decentralizzati penso quelli del CEE diverso che non vuole essere trovare una criticit\u00e0, per\u00f2 appunto magari uno spunto di riflessione su come in qualche modo seguano alcune dinamiche dei social Facebook, X, per cui che ne so quella del like e quindi mi chiedo anche come magari", "start": 734.30005, "end": 764.27}], "start": 709.41003, "end": 764.27, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Scusami di confutare immediatamente quello che hai detto.", "start": 768.265, "end": 771.22504}], "start": 768.265, "end": 771.22504, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo.", "start": 771.22504, "end": 771.72504}], "start": 771.22504, "end": 771.72504, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Il Like non esiste.", "start": 774.905, "end": 777.885}, {"text": "Nel senso il Like sul F diverso a meno che tu non sia su dei server che hanno abilitato delle funzioni particolari banalmente sulle principali istanze italiano, il Segre, ida eccetera il esiste il pulsantino like che \u00e8 per\u00f2 \u00e8 come dirti veramente bella l\u00ec, Cio\u00e8 magari non voglio rispondere e ti metto like, ma non nessuna funzione.", "start": 778.10504, "end": 810.13}, {"text": "Il problema del like \u00e8 il meccanismo competitivo che si innesca con la competizione per I like che poi finiscono per deformare I contenuti perch\u00e9 io posso, se io voglio fare un contenuto per massimizzare il numero di volte che la gente clicca su like, faccio delle cose diverse.", "start": 810.51, "end": 831.495}, {"text": "Infatti su Facebook sono andate quelle cose.", "start": 831.495, "end": 833.67}, {"text": "Fai mi piace se pensi che abbia ragione lui, fai cuore se pensi che abbia ragione su mastodon o quantomeno sulle istanze italiane di mastodon sono disabilitate tutte le funzioni di trend.", "start": 834.70996, "end": 851.815}], "start": 774.905, "end": 851.815, "num_words": 150.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi che il tuo post faccia 200 like o ne faccia uno pesa come il mio post che ne fatti 0.", "start": 852.515, "end": 861.79}, {"text": "Quindi il Like sulfe diverso \u00e8 Sono d'accordo che \u00e8 una vestigia, un qualcosa di Io lo eliminerei del tutto.", "start": 861.93, "end": 873.79}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 non \u00e8 il Like metrica dell'engagement.", "start": 874.08997, "end": 878.225}, {"text": "\u00c8 un like in amicizia perch\u00e9 non viene contato.", "start": 878.765, "end": 885.105}, {"text": "Non \u00e8 la base, non \u00e8 una metrica su cui si che regola la visibilit\u00e0.", "start": 885.805, "end": 892.85}], "start": 852.515, "end": 892.85, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9 il fatto \u00e8 che meta premia I post con tanti like perch\u00e9 I post con tanti like sono post che stimolano l'engagement e quindi se io faccio un post che stimola l'engagement tu piattaforma meta perch\u00e9 io sono un buon soldatino, un buon lavoratore che fatto un contenuto che fa in modo che la gente interagisca con la tua piattaforma e quindi tu premi con la visibilit\u00e0 I contenuti che fanno like e tutte le altre metriche di engagement.", "start": 893.31, "end": 926.13}, {"text": "Ma su questa cosa, questa cosa sul Fedeverso non c'\u00e8 perch\u00e9 le timeline sono cronologiche, non c'\u00e8 un algoritmo che seleziona per te E le funzioni di trend non sono usate.", "start": 926.13, "end": 940.41504}, {"text": "O meglio, mastodon vabb\u00e8, per quanto me ne riguarda una gestione che si potrebbe discutere, mastodon l' introdotto come possibilit\u00e0 ma la stragrande maggioranza dei server che conosco io l' disabilitata perch\u00e9 han detto: No guarda caro Yuugen Roco, lo sviluppatore di Mastrodon guarda che se ci mettiamo a premiare I like finiamo finiamo da dove siamo partiti.", "start": 940.635, "end": 970.735}, {"text": "Quindi c'\u00e8 una sola istanza in Italia che io disprezzo e che lo usa, ma a parte quello tutte le altre istanze non lo utilizzano e quindi il like non \u00e8 una cosa che viene ricalcata dagli altri social.", "start": 972.15497, "end": 988.44}], "start": 893.31, "end": 988.44, "num_words": 208.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "\u00c8 un po' un residuo ancestrale.", "start": 988.835, "end": 992.855}, {"text": "Scusami, fammi una", "start": 993.235, "end": 994.22925}], "start": 988.835, "end": 994.22925, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "domanda.", "start": 994.22925, "end": 994.5607}, {"text": "No, no, no, hai fatto bene a fare questa precisazione?", "start": 994.5607, "end": 997.97504}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 poi 2\u00ba me va in linea con quello quello che diciamo non so dell'algoritmo, mentre non so, sui social delle Big Tech l'algoritmo non \u00e8 chiaro, se non sappiamo perch\u00e9 il nostro feed \u00e8 composto in un certo modo e in un altro Appunto \u00e8 specificato come un F diverso principalmente sia una timeline, quindi in ordine cronologico, per\u00f2 \u00e8 anche interessante che appunto poi ogni eventualmente comunit\u00e0 online pu\u00f2 decidere se configurare il software in un modo o in un altro.", "start": 998.515, "end": 1031.75}, {"text": "Quindi questa cosa \u00e8 strainteressante.", "start": 1032.77, "end": 1034.31}, {"text": "No volevo chiederti in realt\u00e0 era appunto una riflessione, cio\u00e8 volevo partire appunto da una cosa che pensavo, cio\u00e8 quella come effettivamente c'\u00e8 una certa somiglianza con alcune modifiche molto importanti, una somiglianza tra I social del FE diverso e quelli delle Big Tech.", "start": 1035.89, "end": 1059.96}], "start": 994.22925, "end": 1059.96, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Cio\u00e8 nel senso penso come, adesso non mi ricordo, c'era una sorta anche riguardo a Instagram, c'\u00e8 un software che \u00e8 simile.", "start": 1060.02, "end": 1071.165}, {"text": "A si ispiri forse AXE non a Facebook, proprio come modalit\u00e0 estetica.", "start": 1074.185, "end": 1085.72}, {"text": "E quindi mi chiedo, cio\u00e8 la domanda che volevo farti era appunto andare magari oltre.", "start": 1086.9, "end": 1091.7999}, {"text": "Come potrebbe essere un social network federato del futuro?", "start": 1093.4851, "end": 1097.7251}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 nel senso come potresti immaginartelo magari qualcosa di ripensato fatto proprio apposta per andare oltre la polarizzazione per aumentare collaborazione tra le persone?", "start": 1097.7251, "end": 1111.6901}], "start": 1060.02, "end": 1111.6901, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora", "start": 1111.6901, "end": 1112.1901}], "start": 1111.6901, "end": 1112.1901, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "la differenza \u00e8 culturale perch\u00e9 per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 giusto cos\u00ec.", "start": 1112.41, "end": 1115.53}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 nota bene noi qua stiamo parlando di Fediverso che non \u00e8 mastodon, che non \u00e8 pixelfeld.", "start": 1115.53, "end": 1122.1849}, {"text": "Il fe diverso sono tutti I software che utilizzano il protocollo Activity Pub, Activity Pub, il che vuol dire che il fedeverso \u00e8 fatto da tanti servizi che parlano tutti la stessa lingua.", "start": 1122.565, "end": 1137.77}, {"text": "E' come se tu con il tuo account di Instagram potessi parlare con uno su X e seguire un account di YouTube e loggarti su una diretta di TikTok tutto con lo stesso account.", "start": 1137.9099, "end": 1156.4249}, {"text": "Fe diverso non \u00e8 Mastodon, il Fe diverso \u00e8 appunto una rete di software che girano con questo protocollo.", "start": 1156.885, "end": 1165.36}], "start": 1112.41, "end": 1165.36, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi il succo del Fediverso \u00e8 lo scambio di contenuti senza limiti su internet.", "start": 1166.1399, "end": 1174.245}, {"text": "La forma, l'involucro che gli dai pu\u00f2 cambiare in base ai tuoi gusti, alle tue inclinazioni, alle funzionalit\u00e0 che vuoi.", "start": 1175.265, "end": 1186.725}, {"text": "E quindi pu\u00f2 avere 1000 forme perch\u00e9 Mastodon \u00e8 vero, Mastodon si ispira abbastanza come interfaccia e esperienza AXA Twitter.", "start": 1189.53, "end": 1202.91}, {"text": "C'\u00e8 Pixelfeld che ricalca Instagram, c'\u00e8 Frendica che ricorda un po' pi\u00f9 Facebook.", "start": 1204.045, "end": 1210.4451}, {"text": "Per\u00f2 poi c'\u00e8 anche PeerTube che non \u00e8 un social come quelli ma \u00e8 una versione libera e decentralizzata di YouTube.", "start": 1210.4451, "end": 1222.3401}], "start": 1166.1399, "end": 1222.3401, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quello che io credo quindi a livello di struttura il Fediverso per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 permette di avere una grossa rete.", "start": 1223.76, "end": 1235.115}, {"text": "Decentralizzata vuol dire che nessuno comanda ma vuol dire anche che \u00e8 gestibile a livello economico.", "start": 1235.935, "end": 1241.715}, {"text": "Nel senso che una rete fatta da tanti nodi dove gestire ogni nodo \u00e8 relativamente economico, \u00e8 una cosa che pu\u00f2 crescere dal basso.", "start": 1242.255, "end": 1251.71}, {"text": "Se invece volessimo replicare I server di Instagram ci vorrebbero miliardi letteralmente di euro di investimento che non raccoglieremmo mai.", "start": 1251.7699, "end": 1262.695}, {"text": "\u00c8 decentralizzato, nessuno comanda, I costi sono sostenibili, bassi, ridistribuibili e tutto.", "start": 1264.035, "end": 1272.855}], "start": 1223.76, "end": 1272.855, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Tutti possono parlare con chi vogliono.", "start": 1272.915, "end": 1276.1599}, {"text": "La moderazione \u00e8 gi\u00e0 ideale perch\u00e9 la moderazione dei contenuti \u00e8 da sempre un problema, una questione di ragionamento anche di filosofia politica 2\u00ba me perch\u00e9 io a volte penso che I moderatori sono comunque una forza di polizia per certi versi ma non sto a aprire questo discorso ma anche l\u00ec la bellezza della decentralizzazione \u00e8 che un problema complesso come quello della moderazione pu\u00f2 essere gestito autonomamente da ogni nodo come preferisce e di nuovo \u00e8 un sistema decentralizzato nel quale nessuno pu\u00f2 essere censurato ma al tempo stesso nessuno pu\u00f2 obbligare gli altri ad ascoltarlo.", "start": 1276.2999, "end": 1324.485}, {"text": "Io e te siamo nella federazione, io ho la mia il mio nodo, la mia istanza, il mio server.", "start": 1325.025, "end": 1330.405}, {"text": "Quando dico istanza sto parlando dei nodi, delle parti della rete del Fedediverso.", "start": 1331.38, "end": 1337.48}, {"text": "Facciamo che io ho la mia istanza e arrivi tu che ne fondi una per fare qualcosa di turpe?", "start": 1337.86, "end": 1347.545}], "start": 1272.915, "end": 1347.545, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Fai fondi un'istanza di maschilismo radicale dove parli male delle donne e magari usi pure quell'istanza per andare a rompere le palle a quelle donne, beh io non ti posso censurare perch\u00e9 quel tuo server \u00e8 tuo.", "start": 1348.405, "end": 1368.83}, {"text": "Poi certo se fai delle cose estremamente illegali magari ti arrivano ti arriva la polizia a casa ma quello \u00e8 un altro discorso per\u00f2 nessuno pu\u00f2 impedire a te di dire quello che vuoi ma nessuno obbliga me ad ascoltarti.", "start": 1369.13, "end": 1382.7949}, {"text": "Di qua perfetto \u00e8 arrivato Alessandro fatto questa istanza maschilista di merda bon io lo tolgo dalla mia federazione quindi nessuno ti pu\u00f2 censurare nessuno \u00e8 obbligato ad ascoltarti ed \u00e8 2\u00ba me estremamente interessante perch\u00e9 ho fatto l'esempio di qualcosa di turpe ma di non poter essere censurati vuol dire anche poter parlare appunto come dicevamo 1\u00ba parlare di Palestina e di parlare di lotte radicali, parlare di viviamo viviamo in uno stato estremamente estremamente di destra.", "start": 1383.1749, "end": 1425.92}, {"text": "Potrebbe persino succedere, come in realt\u00e0 gi\u00e0 sta succedendo, e il dissenso diventi illegale.", "start": 1427.155, "end": 1433.8151}, {"text": "Con la struttura del fe diverso noi possiamo non essere censurati, non essere censurabili.", "start": 1436.1951, "end": 1443.14}], "start": 1348.405, "end": 1443.14, "num_words": 183.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi a livello di struttura per me \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetto, cio\u00e8 ci d\u00e0 lo strut cosa vuoi di pi\u00f9?", "start": 1443.68, "end": 1448.8201}, {"text": "Io voglio poter parlare con chi voglio in tutto il mondo, voglio che nessuno comandi, Voglio che I costi siano contenuti.", "start": 1449.2001, "end": 1456.415}, {"text": "Voglio che il software su cui si basa questa cosa sia libero, quindi trasparente, in modo che io sappia che non c'\u00e8 che non ci sono fregature, furti di dati l\u00ec in mezzo.", "start": 1456.875, "end": 1468.895}, {"text": "C'\u00e8 tutto quello che voglio.", "start": 1469.0599, "end": 1470.44}, {"text": "Cambiamento deve essere culturale.", "start": 1471.54, "end": 1475.72}], "start": 1443.68, "end": 1475.72, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Anche se noi adesso abbiamo il fe diverso, \u00e8 strutturato in maniera radicalmente diversa da Instagram e affini, arriviamo da 15 anni di indottrinamento del content e quindi magari cerchiamo di usare il fee diverso come se fosse Instagram.", "start": 1475.86, "end": 1496.885}, {"text": "2\u00ba me \u00e8 l\u00ec che serve il cambiamento.", "start": 1497.21, "end": 1501.7899}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 Instagram ovviamente sostituisci con la piattaforma che preferisci.", "start": 1503.2899, "end": 1510.0299}, {"text": "Furia di scudisciate digitali e manipolazione ci convinto a essere tutti e tutte content creator.", "start": 1515.385, "end": 1530.84}, {"text": "5 anni fa nessuno faceva una foto alla pizza 1\u00ba di mangiarla, e stavamo benissimo lo stesso.", "start": 1530.84, "end": 1538.7799}], "start": 1475.86, "end": 1538.7799, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9 ci siamo trovati a fotografare le pizze?", "start": 1542.095, "end": 1544.735}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 quella pizza \u00e8 memorabile.", "start": 1544.735, "end": 1546.555}, {"text": "E vabb\u00e8 magari la volta che non ci vediamo che siano unicissimi, non ci vediamo da 6 anni, ci facciamo una foto, quello \u00e8 un altro discorso.", "start": 1546.5751, "end": 1555.55}, {"text": "Ma la quantit\u00e0 di foto che facciamo e di cose che condividiamo sui social sono inutili, completamente inutili a noi.", "start": 1556.25, "end": 1568.515}, {"text": "Sono utili a Instagram perch\u00e9 te che posti la foto della pizza, tieni I contenuti, di engagement, vai avanti, mi acceso il fuoco della piattaforma.", "start": 1568.895, "end": 1580.29}], "start": 1542.095, "end": 1580.29, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi noi ci siamo abituate a creare, contribuire, produrre in continuazione.", "start": 1580.75, "end": 1589.9501}, {"text": "E non solo: ci siamo abituate a produrre in continuazione tarando la nostra produzione sui feedback che ci vengono dati dai like, dall'algoritmo, dalla visibilit\u00e0.", "start": 1589.9501, "end": 1606.555}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 com'\u00e8 che siamo arrivati ad avere quelle ridicole storture dei luoghi bellissimi della natura con 45 minuti di coda e tutta la gente che fa 'sta coda per arrivare l\u00ec e fare una foto da pubblicare.", "start": 1607.37, "end": 1627.8651}, {"text": "Sono quei meccanismi che sono estremamente nocivi per la nostra vita, per I nostri ritmi e in realt\u00e0 anche per I luoghi e sono frutto dei meccanismi di Instagram, sono frutto dei meccanismi delle piattaforme commerciali.", "start": 1628.005, "end": 1646.24}, {"text": "Ce li abbiamo cos\u00ec ingannati che magari quando andiamo sul Fediverso li ricerchiamo o quando andiamo sul Fediverso magari abbiamo lo stesso istinto.", "start": 1646.5399, "end": 1656.365}], "start": 1580.75, "end": 1656.365, "num_words": 132.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "All'inizio, ormai \u00e8 un viaggio abbastanza lungo quello che ho fatto sul Fediverso, all'inizio con un passato e quasi un presente da content creator volevo pubblicare un sacco di cose.", "start": 1656.745, "end": 1670.2}, {"text": "Le foto le pubblicavo.", "start": 1671.22, "end": 1672.6}, {"text": "Adesso, momento in cui non c'\u00e8 nessuna utilit\u00e0 a essere iper produttivi sul Fediverso, ne \u00e8 premiata l'iper produttivit\u00e0 punita la non produttivit\u00e0?", "start": 1672.74, "end": 1686.335}, {"text": "Io scrivo molto di meno e non mi verrebbe mai in mente di fare una foto.", "start": 1686.4349, "end": 1693.255}, {"text": "Certo se faccio una ricetta che \u00e8 venuta bene allora s\u00ec faccio una foto perch\u00e9 voglio condividere quella ricetta ma la foto al 1\u00ba gelato della stagione, la foto al panino, la foto al cane non la pubblico.", "start": 1694.6699, "end": 1715.215}], "start": 1656.745, "end": 1715.215, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E di fatto, non volendola pubblicare, non la faccio nemmeno.", "start": 1715.675, "end": 1719.215}, {"text": "Non facendola nemmeno, vivo di pi\u00f9.", "start": 1719.835, "end": 1721.85}, {"text": "La mia vita non \u00e8 interrotta da questo momento qua.", "start": 1722.73, "end": 1726.59}, {"text": "E quindi 2\u00ba me la struttura del Feliverso \u00e8 gi\u00e0 perfetta.", "start": 1726.97, "end": 1734.03}, {"text": "Quello che deve maturare \u00e8 un cambiamento collettivo e culturale.", "start": 1734.885, "end": 1740.905}], "start": 1715.675, "end": 1740.905, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Dobbiamo risvegliarci dalla sbornia del Content e capire che possiamo fare le cose diversamente.", "start": 1741.525, "end": 1751.04}, {"text": "Ci vorr\u00e0 del tempo perch\u00e9 in realt\u00e0 tutti questi meccanismi, le fruste della produttivit\u00e0 su Instagram, sono invisibili ma ci sono.", "start": 1751.66, "end": 1760.9601}, {"text": "E sono proprio le fruste invisibili che ti lasciano le cicatrici senza che tu te ne accorga.", "start": 1761.075, "end": 1767.735}, {"text": "Io credo che la 1\u00ba fase del grande cambiamento sar\u00e0 una dozzina sempre pi\u00f9 non dico di massa, perch\u00e9 non mi interessa.", "start": 1769.635, "end": 1779.49}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 il fatto che Instagram abbia 3000000000 di utenti \u00e8 parte del problema.", "start": 1779.79, "end": 1784.03}], "start": 1741.525, "end": 1784.03, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "A me non interessa che il fediverso replichi Instagram e I social commerciali.", "start": 1784.03, "end": 1790.2849}, {"text": "Non mi interessa anzi sarebbe assolutamente un problema se cos\u00ec fosse.", "start": 1790.585, "end": 1798.7649}, {"text": "Io penso che la 1\u00ba fase sar\u00e0 l'arrivo di una massa critica, dove con massa critica gi\u00e0 ci siamo, Quanti di persone che tengono acceso un fuoco?", "start": 1799.3049, "end": 1814.44}, {"text": "E cos\u00ec facendo stimoleranno sempre pi\u00f9 persone a venire a provare il Fediverso con la pubblicit\u00e0 notevole del fatto che su Instagram e sulle piattaforme commerciali si sta sempre peggio.", "start": 1816.66, "end": 1829.765}, {"text": "Quindi io credo che la gente sar\u00e0 molto incline a quantomeno dare una possibilit\u00e0 alla differenza.", "start": 1829.765, "end": 1835.22}], "start": 1784.03, "end": 1835.22, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "La 2\u00ba fase 2\u00ba me sar\u00e0 quando avremo iniziato a usarlo collettivamente e il fatto di stare su una piattaforma decentralizzata che non \u00e8 strutturata per ottimizzare quanta roba posti e quanto tempo gli dedichi inizieremo a usarle di meno e a usarlo in maniera diversa Che poi alla fine \u00e8 un tenere il focus sul mondo fisico, rapporti veri con le persone.", "start": 1835.92, "end": 1875.3049}, {"text": "Essere un Per me il traguardo supremo \u00e8 tornare ad avere la piazza.", "start": 1876.6449, "end": 1882.505}, {"text": "Tornare ad avere Internet come luogo di confronto collettivo, non di propriet\u00e0 di nessuno, non infestato dalla pubblicit\u00e0.", "start": 1882.8049, "end": 1891.71}, {"text": "E nel momento in cui non c'\u00e8 la pubblicit\u00e0, nel momento in cui lo scopo non \u00e8 farti stare di pi\u00f9 su Internet, I contatti online generano contatti nel mondo fisico.", "start": 1892.57, "end": 1903.765}, {"text": "Ed \u00e8 importantissimo vedersi nel mondo fisico, 2\u00ba me, soprattutto per questioni di lotta di classe o carenza della medesima.", "start": 1903.985, "end": 1915.55}], "start": 1835.92, "end": 1915.55, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "E 2\u00ba me \u00e8 proprio fondamentale riprendere il digitale per poter ricominciare a combattere nel fisico.", "start": 1915.85, "end": 1929.515}, {"text": "Anche perch\u00e9 ne abbiamo un esempio.", "start": 1929.7351, "end": 1932.4751}, {"text": "Quando si parlava di 1\u00ba che arrivasse Facebook 1\u00ba che arrivasse Myspace le comunit\u00e0 su internet si radunavano sui forum.", "start": 1933.3351, "end": 1944.52}, {"text": "Molti siti avevano il loro forum: erano delle isole, erano delle comunit\u00e0 cos\u00ec dove la gente parlava, erano delle bacheche, dei bulleting board.", "start": 1945.46, "end": 1954.76}, {"text": "Ognuno faceva un post, un thread, io potevo commentare sul tuo thread, nasceva delle discussioni, eccetera.", "start": 1955.0651, "end": 1961.725}], "start": 1915.85, "end": 1961.725, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Molti non ricordano perch\u00e9 magari anche perch\u00e9 sono nati dopo che esistesse questa code e che dopo la morte di questo fenomeno, ma I forum generavano amicizia nel mondo fisico.", "start": 1963.225, "end": 1977.4501}, {"text": "Io e te magari interagivamo su questo forum ma ogni tanto ogni tot venivano organizzate delle pizzate, delle birre, degli incontri.", "start": 1978.0701, "end": 1989.095}, {"text": "Io conosco moltissime persone che hanno trovato l'amore della vita o amicizie, grandi amicizie durature dai raduni dei forum.", "start": 1989.555, "end": 2001.57}, {"text": "E I raduni dei forum perch\u00e9 succedevano?", "start": 2001.57, "end": 2003.83}, {"text": "Perch\u00e9 lo stare online non era il fine ultimo.", "start": 2004.61, "end": 2008.07}], "start": 1963.225, "end": 2008.07, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Lo stare online era uno dell'et\u00e0 uno dei tanti modi di fare socialit\u00e0, un modo in pi\u00f9 per fare socialit\u00e0.", "start": 2008.2899, "end": 2017.015}, {"text": "E quindi io sono convinto che si possa reinnescare quel fenomeno che nota bene non \u00e8 un discorso da persona che odi la tecnologia o che odia la che odia l'online, che odia il digitale.", "start": 2018.835, "end": 2035.9}, {"text": "A me piace internet, anzi trovo che sia una frontiera enorme di possibilit\u00e0.", "start": 2035.9, "end": 2042.22}, {"text": "La cosa che si mette in dubbio non \u00e8 la tecnologia di internet.", "start": 2042.22, "end": 2047.295}, {"text": "La cosa che si mette in dubbio \u00e8 come viene usata e da chi viene controllata.", "start": 2047.835, "end": 2052.815}], "start": 2008.2899, "end": 2052.815, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Perch\u00e9 la stessa tecnologia pu\u00f2 trasformarsi in una cosa che ci rincoglionisce e ci rende paradossalmente sempre pi\u00f9 soli perch\u00e9 pi\u00f9 tu stai a casa e io sto a casa cos\u00ec a fare doom scrolling pi\u00f9 io e te siamo soli oppure pu\u00f2 essere l'opposto pu\u00f2 essere un meccanismo che fa incontrare me che magari viviamo a centinaia di chilometri di distanza e mi fa sentire meno solo perch\u00e9 dico guarda anche lui fatto quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza.", "start": 2053.115, "end": 2083.89}, {"text": "Quel pensiero o anche lui quella passione o anche lui quell'esigenza e a quel punto ci incontriamo, ci conosciamo e la nostra socialit\u00e0 si concretizza e non \u00e8 semplicemente un'esca per tenerci il pi\u00f9 possibile su una piattaforma.", "start": 2084.0498, "end": 2102.195}], "start": 2053.115, "end": 2102.195, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Certo, assolutamente concordo con tutto quello che hai detto.", "start": 2104.2551, "end": 2107.955}, {"text": "E mi chiedo: c'\u00e8 uno stato di recente, diciamo su vari giornali avevamo pubblicato come appunto in America si parlasse di come le Big Tech sostanzialmente, questa cosa dell'interesse, dell'interesse a tenere le persone incollate e quindi ritenendole anche responsabili.", "start": 2108.575, "end": 2134.215}, {"text": "Come chiedo da un punto di vista istituzioni, in questo che ruolo potrebbero avere?", "start": 2134.215, "end": 2141.915}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 nel senso, perch\u00e9 da una parte potrebbero realizzare che effettivamente quello cio\u00e8 siamo sempre pi\u00f9 polarizzati su internet.", "start": 2142.02, "end": 2150.2}, {"text": "Nel senso, deve essere una cosa, cio\u00e8 la decentralizzazione delle piattaforme va anche in parallelo a una decentralizzazione del potere, perch\u00e9 una centralizzazione delle informazioni poi porta anche una centralizzazione del potere.", "start": 2152.5, "end": 2169.6948}], "start": 2104.2551, "end": 2169.6948, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Mi chiedo se in questo le istituzioni 2\u00ba te potrebbero o dovrebbero avere un ruolo nell'arginare appunto questi algoritmi che noi non conosciamo e ci condizionano e quindi come dire", "start": 2169.99, "end": 2182.25}], "start": 2169.99, "end": 2182.25, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Allora do una risposta da anarchico.", "start": 2184.615, "end": 2192.0952}, {"text": "\u00c8 ovviamente un tema interessante questo.", "start": 2192.0952, "end": 2194.235}, {"text": "Io innanzitutto voglio partire da un dato: le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo.", "start": 2194.375, "end": 2199.03}, {"text": "\u00c8 passato del tempo, scusami, hanno suonato la porta arrivo subito.", "start": 2199.65, "end": 2202.79}, {"text": "Rispondo?", "start": 2202.93, "end": 2203.43}], "start": 2184.615, "end": 2203.43, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ecco perdonami, scusatemi, \u00e8 una 2\u00ba me molto importante da fare \u00e8 che uno) le istituzioni non hanno fatto un cazzo perch\u00e9 questo problema non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa.", "start": 2203.49, "end": 2216.035}, {"text": "Non \u00e8 una roba di 20 minuti fa, non \u00e8 nemmeno una roba di 3 anni fa, nemmeno una roba di 5 anni fa.", "start": 2216.035, "end": 2221.235}, {"text": "Le istituzioni non hanno fatto niente.", "start": 2221.235, "end": 2223.175}, {"text": "E prendiamo siamo in Europa prendiamo l'esempio dell'Unione europea.", "start": 2223.69, "end": 2228.51}, {"text": "Solitamente delle nazioni \u00e8 quella un pochettino pi\u00f9 attenta a questi temi.", "start": 2229.05, "end": 2233.79}], "start": 2203.49, "end": 2233.79, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Beh non fatto un cazzo.", "start": 2233.93, "end": 2235.31}, {"text": "E quando fatto qualcosa la legge si \u00e8 rivelata insufficiente e inadeguata perch\u00e9 ogni tot multato Meta, multato Instagram, ma \u00e8 lo stesso discorso: se tu 6 1 riccone con la Ferrari e io ti faccio 100 euro di multa perch\u00e9 6 andato troppo veloce in autostrada, tu non te ne freghi.", "start": 2237.395, "end": 2259.51}, {"text": "E quello che abbiamo visto sono state s\u00ec le maxi multe, le giga multe miliardarie, ma se io faccio a Meta una multa di 1000000000 e facendo quella parruccheria Meta ne guadagnati 3, quella multa viene considerata un costo operativo.", "start": 2259.73, "end": 2276.7952}, {"text": "Il massimo che sono riusciti a fare le istituzioni \u00e8 stato fare qualche multa.", "start": 2278.135, "end": 2281.7551}, {"text": "Non ci hanno tutelato non hanno fatto nulla.", "start": 2282.0, "end": 2285.6199}], "start": 2233.93, "end": 2285.6199, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Qua il lato anarchico in me vede ci vede una causalit\u00e0, una correlazione, nel senso che nel momento in cui il potere economico pu\u00f2 comprare potere politico, lobbing anche nella comunit\u00e0 europea esiste il lobbing nel momento in cui I miei grandi guadagni possono tradursi in influenza politica in questo caso penso che le istituzioni abbiano proprio una limitazione gigante, perch\u00e9 se la cosa che vuoi regolamentare pi\u00f9 potenza di fuoco di te e pu\u00f2 investire soldi per influenzare le tue decisioni, beh abbiamo un problema.", "start": 2286.5598, "end": 2327.8052}, {"text": "Quindi da un lato penso che invece che dire si potrebbe, non si potrebbe, chiss\u00e0.", "start": 2328.2651, "end": 2335.66}, {"text": "Io voglio partire constatando che qualunque cosa siano non ci hanno protetto.", "start": 2336.2, "end": 2341.82}, {"text": "Non ci hanno protetto, se ci hanno provato hanno fallito miseramente.", "start": 2342.3599, "end": 2345.58}, {"text": "Mi verrebbe pure da dire che non ci hanno realmente provato.", "start": 2348.665, "end": 2352.505}], "start": 2286.5598, "end": 2352.505, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Quindi da questo punto di vista parto da un'enorme, enorme, enorme sfiducia.", "start": 2352.505, "end": 2360.345}, {"text": "Detto questo, dovrebbero utilizzarle perch\u00e9 \u00e8 una follia che tu stai hai cos\u00ec tanto della tua comunicazione.", "start": 2360.345, "end": 2375.595}, {"text": "Cio\u00e8 noi abbiamo I Presidenti del Consiglio che fanno I comunicati su Facebook.", "start": 2375.595, "end": 2380.415}, {"text": "\u00c8 assolutamente pericoloso che la tua comunicazione, le tue attivit\u00e0, alcune cose anche in veste ufficiale siano dipendenti da un servizio privato di un'azienda privata, di una distopia tardo capitalista come negli Stati Uniti, con un re matto e dove abbiamo la dimostrazione che I CEO, le aziende del capitalismo digitale sono non dico asservite ma quantomeno sono alla corte di un sovrano particolarmente capriccioso.", "start": 2382.075, "end": 2422.8198}, {"text": "Quindi le istituzioni 2\u00ba me dovrebbero affrancarsi dal dovrebbero fare la stessa cosa che facciamo noi dal basso.", "start": 2423.1199, "end": 2431.925}], "start": 2352.505, "end": 2431.925, "num_words": 125.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "S\u00ec entrare anche loro nella federazione fare I loro nodi.", "start": 2432.3052, "end": 2436.305}, {"text": "Questa cosa sta succedendo.", "start": 2436.305, "end": 2437.685}, {"text": "Ci sono dei server del fediverso di varie realt\u00e0 dell'Unione Europea e tutto.", "start": 2440.385, "end": 2450.1401}, {"text": "Quindi semplicemente io penso che le istituzioni potranno a un certo punto A me personalmente non me ne frega niente.", "start": 2450.2002, "end": 2459.655}, {"text": "E mi avete deluso.", "start": 2459.655, "end": 2460.635}], "start": 2432.3052, "end": 2460.635, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Avete permesso chiunque voi siate, anche perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi molto generico, perch\u00e9 \u00e8 un voi che coinvolge tutto lo spettro politico.", "start": 2463.415, "end": 2473.4102}, {"text": "Anzi \u00e8 un voi che quasi 2\u00ba me la democrazia rappresentativa.", "start": 2473.55, "end": 2478.9302}, {"text": "Non funzionato, non ci protetto.", "start": 2480.35, "end": 2482.4302}, {"text": "Guarda cos'\u00e8 successo, Come Guarda come siamo ridotti dal punto di vista digitale e quindi le istituzioni dato di fatto fatto niente o hanno fallito miseramente?", "start": 2482.4302, "end": 2495.495}, {"text": "Potranno unirsi al gioco e sicuramente unendosi al gioco potranno potranno fare del bene e magari unendosi al gioco potrebbero anche capire alcune cose magari regolamentarle in maniera pi\u00f9 efficiente.", "start": 2498.16, "end": 2511.7349}], "start": 2463.415, "end": 2511.7349, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Per\u00f2 non penso che saranno le istituzioni a salvarci e penso che sia estremamente non solo ingenuo ma anche controproducente aspettare che siano loro a salvarci.", "start": 2512.275, "end": 2527.6199}, {"text": "Per me Elf diverso \u00e8 azione diretta digitale.", "start": 2527.6199, "end": 2532.06}, {"text": "La mia privacy poi ne parliamo poi andiamo avanti ma io intanto scelgo di utilizzare una piattaforma fatta 2\u00ba altri criteri.", "start": 2532.06, "end": 2542.815}, {"text": "Poi chiaro sarebbe bellissimo se l'Unione Europea iniziasse a stanziare fondi e a distribuire soldi a gente affinch\u00e9 facesse pi\u00f9 istanze.", "start": 2542.815, "end": 2554.35}, {"text": "Ma quello diventar carro dei vincitori a quel 0.2 me le istituzioni potranno saltare sul carro dei vincitori e magari dargli anche una spinta.", "start": 2556.4302, "end": 2564.4502}], "start": 2512.275, "end": 2564.4502, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ma ci salveremo da", "start": 2564.9102, "end": 2568.315}], "start": 2564.9102, "end": 2568.315, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "tutti.", "start": 2573.035, "end": 2573.1948}, {"text": "Sempre bene mettersi in gioco.", "start": 2573.1948, "end": 2574.7148}], "start": 2573.035, "end": 2574.7148, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ti direi di passare all'ultima domanda.", "start": 2574.7148, "end": 2577.935}], "start": 2574.7148, "end": 2577.935, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "1\u00ba stavi parlando democrazia rappresentativa.", "start": 2584.17, "end": 2586.5898}, {"text": "Cuscendo forse un attimo fuori dal fede diverso, per\u00f2 in realt\u00e0 neanche tanto perch\u00e9 anche il fede diverso pu\u00f2 centrare in questo.", "start": 2587.3699, "end": 2594.19}, {"text": "Democrazia rappresentativa adesso la tecnologia in teoria potrebbe anche permetterci altre forme.", "start": 2595.45, "end": 2600.565}, {"text": "Uno pu\u00f2 parlare di democrazia diretta, pu\u00f2 essere d'accordo, in disaccordo, eccetera.", "start": 2601.0251, "end": 2606.0051}, {"text": "Ecco, quali sono le tue riflessioni riguardo a questo e poi anche pensando, non so, in Italia c'\u00e8 stato un esperimento che \u00e8 stato quello dei 5 Stelle con la piattaforma Rousseau, \u00e8 andato male, ci sono stati dei problemi, tutto quanto.", "start": 2606.5452, "end": 2619.97}], "start": 2584.17, "end": 2619.97, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Io detesto quel verme di Casaleggio che mi spiace sia morto per\u00f2 non si parla, parlo lo detesto perch\u00e9 dato un cattivo nome alla democrazia diretta.", "start": 2620.43, "end": 2634.7751}, {"text": "Si \u00e8 riempito la bocca di un termine molto importante che \u00e8 democrazia diretta.", "start": 2635.235, "end": 2639.955}, {"text": "E poi quando mi dicono: ma Fabio non credi nella democrazia rappresentativa allora in cosa credi?", "start": 2639.955, "end": 2643.63}, {"text": "Nella democrazia diretta mi dicono come Rousseau!", "start": 2643.71, "end": 2645.97}, {"text": "No Rousseau \u00e8 stata una piattaforma privata non open controllata da un'azienda privata che si \u00e8 appropriata di un concetto bello e complesso come quello della democrazia diretta e l' mandata in Chara.", "start": 2647.5098, "end": 2667.2048}], "start": 2620.43, "end": 2667.2048, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Il mio punto di riferimento su queste cose io consiglio gli scritti di Murray Bookcin, Murray Bookcin come libro mento che scritto tantissime cose molto importanti tra cui anche un libretto che si chiama Democrazia diretta.", "start": 2668.625, "end": 2686.6099}, {"text": "Il suo pensiero \u00e8 quello che poi ispirato Ochalan e tutta quella che \u00e8 l'esperienza del Rojava dove appunto si parla di confederalismo democratico.", "start": 2688.155, "end": 2705.25}, {"text": "\u00c8 una cosa ispirata moltissimo ai pensieri di Bookcin e all'idea di democrazia diretta.", "start": 2706.27, "end": 2714.85}, {"text": "Io amo il fediverso anche e soprattutto per questo perch\u00e9 il fediverso \u00e8 una dimostrazione di come una federazione dove il potere distribuito in maniera orizzontale \u00e8 possibile e dimostra anche come potrebbe essere volendo con poco sforzo a livello tecnologico premmo tutte le risorse per immaginare una democrazia diretta del futuro.", "start": 2715.4148, "end": 2747.895}, {"text": "Non pensavo che finissimo cos\u00ec tanto sull'anarchismo oggi, ma va bene.", "start": 2748.5952, "end": 2752.0552}], "start": 2668.625, "end": 2752.0552, "num_words": 137.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Se vale in 2 parole proprio di dare diciamo un messaggio alle persone che stanno lavorando sui social network a livello culturale, a livello sociale, sul software, su tool che possano servire alle persone per risolvere conflitti, persone che si stanno impegnando diciamo in questo campo, ecco un messaggio se vuoi mandarlo", "start": 2757.01, "end": 2775.865}], "start": 2757.01, "end": 2775.865, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ma io direi uno continuiamo a fare quello che state facendo perch\u00e9 sta andando bene 2\u00ba me.", "start": 2777.7048, "end": 2784.57}, {"text": "Facile vendere disfattismi, ma io vedo una grande crescita su tutti I fronti, vedo uno sviluppo di strumenti, vedo una grande evoluzione e quindi da un lato continuate cos\u00ec e l'altro lato incontriamo.", "start": 2784.57, "end": 2798.645}, {"text": "Io penso che sia molto importante dire: Io sogno un pochettino un internazionale del fede diverso.", "start": 2799.265, "end": 2807.605}, {"text": "Il fatto che ci ritroviamo un trovarsi nel mondo fisico e iniziare a trattare la battaglia della decentralizzazione come un qualcosa di collettivo.", "start": 2807.79, "end": 2820.37}], "start": 2777.7048, "end": 2820.37, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Assolutamente.", "start": 2823.045, "end": 2823.545}, {"text": "Grazie Fabio.", "start": 2824.325, "end": 2825.525}, {"text": "Perfetto.", "start": 2825.525, "end": 2826.025}], "start": 2823.045, "end": 2826.025, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Grazie di avermi invitato.", "start": 2827.125, "end": 2828.425}, {"text": "Grazie a chi ascoltato e scusami se devo scappare.", "start": 2829.205, "end": 2833.7651}, {"text": "Rapidamente.", "start": 2833.7651, "end": 2834.2651}], "start": 2827.125, "end": 2834.2651, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 1}]}, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null}], "detected_language": ""}], "utterances": [{"start": 0.16, "end": 6.1, "confidence": 0.8752039, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Benvenuti e benvenute in una nuova puntata del podcast Democrast Innovator, questa volta siamo qui con Kenobit,", "words": [{"word": "benvenuti", "start": 0.16, "end": 0.39999998, "confidence": 0.52441406, "punctuated_word": "Benvenuti", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6492211}, {"word": "e", "start": 0.39999998, "end": 0.48, "confidence": 0.3984375, "punctuated_word": "e", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6492211}, {"word": "benvenute", "start": 0.48, "end": 0.98, 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