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Diese KI Modelle, mit denen man chatten und sich austauschen kann, sind nicht nur eine Alternative zum Google. Sie unterst\u00fctzen auch Mitarbeitende in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung. Gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle werten Dokumente aus, sortieren Anfragen von B\u00fcrger*innen und unterst\u00fctzen bei Analyseaufgaben. Was genau LLMs k\u00f6nnen, welche Zukunft sie in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung haben und warum man mit ihnen schnell in gef\u00e4hrliche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten ger\u00e4t, das besprechen wir heute in diesem Podcast. Herzlich willkommen beim \u00f6FIT Podcast restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts f\u00fcr offene Kommunikationssysteme. Ich bin Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts. Das ist zum einen Nicole Opiala. Sie ist stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums \u00d6ffentliche IT und forscht zu soziotechnischen Trends an der Schnittstelle zwischen Gesellschaft, Verwaltung und Politik. Nicole ist ja Stammgast bei uns und auch wieder heute online zugeschaltet aus Oldenburg. Sch\u00f6n, dass Du da bist. Hallo Philipp. Und hier vor Ort im Studio in Berlin, Dorian Wachsmann. Er ist wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter im Kompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentliche IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus. Seine Themenschwerpunkte sind nachhaltige Digitalisierung und k\u00fcnstliche Intelligenz. Au\u00dferdem arbeitet er im Bereich der Web- und Softwareentwicklung. Sch\u00f6nen guten Tag. Hallo Philipp, sch\u00f6n, dass ich da sein darf. Ja, steigen wir direkt mal ein. Der Beamtenbund sch\u00e4tzt, dass in Deutschland rund 570000 Stellen fehlen im \u00f6ffentlichen Dienst. Nicole, k\u00f6nnen KI Tools diese L\u00fccke f\u00fcllen, diese enorme L\u00fccke an Fachkr\u00e4ften? Also es geht nicht so sehr darum, eine L\u00fccke zu f\u00fcllen und quasi Mitarbeitende zu ersetzen, sondern eher darum, die Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, ein bisschen zu, ja, ihnen die Arbeit ein bisschen zu erleichtern, sie zu unterst\u00fctzen, sie in ihrer Arbeit effizienter zu machen. Indem, Du hast ja schon paar Beispiele im Intro genannt, zum Beispiel Informationen schneller aufgefunden, schneller aufbereitet werden k\u00f6nnen. Es ist ja teilweise eine sehr textlastige Arbeit. Da gibt's sehr umfangreiche Dokumente, die erstellt werden, die aber auch gesichtet werden m\u00fcssen, Vertr\u00e4ge, irgendwelche Vorlagen et cetera und da kann KI eben sehr gut unterst\u00fctzen und den Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, die Arbeit ein bisschen erleichtern. F\u00fcr eure Studie habt ihr euch gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, 33 Projekte insgesamt. Warum eigentlich dieser Fokus auf digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t? Ihr hattet ja auch 'n anderen w\u00e4hlen k\u00f6nnen. Ja, also digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ist, denk ich, sp\u00e4testens seit diesem Jahr angekommen. Auf der gro\u00dfen politischen B\u00fchne wird viel diskutiert. Tats\u00e4chlich ist das Konzept selbst ja auch schon \u00e4lter und wird in unterschiedlichen Kontexten unterschiedlich verwendet. Wir haben jetzt aktuell, wenn \u00fcber digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t gesprochen wird, h\u00e4ufig den Open Source Gedanken prim\u00e4r im Kopf. Aber es geht halt dar\u00fcber hinaus, wir m\u00fcssen, wenn wir digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t betrachten wollen, die Kompetenzen in der Verwaltung st\u00e4rken. Wir m\u00fcssen Anbieter Unabh\u00e4ngigkeit sichern. Und wir von We Firmenkompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentlicher IT haben digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t eigentlich \u00fcber 3 zentrale Eigenschaften definiert und das ist eigenst\u00e4ndig, selbstbestimmt und sicher. Und hinter jedem dieser 3 Eigenschaften stehen verschiedene Anforderungen, die erf\u00fcllt sein m\u00fcssen. Also wenn wir uns vorstellen, ich will mich selbstbestimmt in der digitalen Welt bewegen, dann bedeutet das halt, ich darf nicht abh\u00e4ngig von einem Unternehmen sein. Wenn ich mich eigenst\u00e4ndig bewegen m\u00f6chte, brauch ich die entsprechenden Kompetenzen dazu, das zu tun. Und eben, mich sicher zu bewegen, brauch ich ebenfalls die entsprechenden technischen Grundlagen, aber auch Kompetenzen. Und das haben wir als Grundlage genommen f\u00fcr unsere Studie. Uns die Projekte, die aktuell in der Bundesverwaltung sich mit in k\u00fcnstlicher Intelligenz und genaue Sprachmodellen besch\u00e4ftigen, halt einmal vorzunehmen. Bleiben wir noch mal direkt dabei und schauen uns mal 'n bisschen genauer an, was ihr da beobachtet habt. Das eine ist, ihr habt gesehen, dass die Bundesverwaltung ihre technischen Systeme mit den gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen selbst entwickelt und eben dadurch nicht abh\u00e4ngig ist von etablierten Systemen aus den USA. Warum ist das wichtig? Genau, ich m\u00f6chte ganz kurz einschieben und ich glaub, das ist f\u00fcr das Verst\u00e4ndnis relativ wichtig, die Unterscheidung zwischen den Anwendungen zu machen, die entwickelt werden und den Sprachmodellen. Und ich also am am einfachsten l\u00e4sst sich das wahrscheinlich auch wieder an ChatGPT nachvollziehen. Es gibt zum einen die Softwareanwendung ChatGPT. Das ist die, wenn Nutzende auf die Website klicken, kriegen sie dieses Feld, also eine einfache Website pr\u00e4sentiert, wo sie Text eingeben k\u00f6nnen. Das ist eine reine Softwareanwendung, ne. Es gibt 'n Frontend und 'n Backend, die miteinander kommunizieren. Und das hat erst mal noch nichts mit dem Element der Sprachmodelle zu tun. Die Sprachmodelle bei ChatGPT sind die GPT Modelle, die vielleicht werden das einige von Ihnen, die den Podcast h\u00f6ren, ja auch wissen, vor innerhalb des Frontends ausgew\u00e4hlt werden k\u00f6nnen. Dann k\u00f6nnen Sie zwischen GPT mini w\u00e4hlen, GPT v o und so weiter. Das sind die Sprachmodelle. Und diese Sprachmodelle sind, wenn's darum geht, diese Sprachmodelle zu entwickeln, da da stecken die riesigen Kosten dahinter. Da steckt dieses das Training dahinter. Und diese gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle werden bisher nur von einigen relativ wenigen Akteuren bereitgestellt, vorrangig amerikanischen Unternehmen. Aber es gibt inzwischen auch europ\u00e4ische und Alternativen beziehungsweise auch in in China gibt's einige einige Angebote. Und was die Bundesverwaltung bisher ausschlie\u00dflich tut, ist, Anwendungen zu entwickeln. Also keine Sprachmodelle selbst zu entwickeln, sondern die Anwendungen, die dann diese Sprachmodelle verwenden. Und wir haben uns die Projekte in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, die eben mithilfe von den Sprachmodellen auf Basis dieser Sprachmodelle Anwendung entwickeln, dann eben diese Vorteile f\u00fcr die Bundesverwaltung zu schaffen, von denen wir am Anfang geredet haben, eben chatten, Textzusammenfassung, Recherche und so weiter. Denn da stellt sich daher die Frage, grade wenn ich denn auf sozusagen Hintergrundsysteme zur\u00fcckgreife aus den USA, warum ist das wichtig, die Anwendung dann hier selbst zu entwickeln? Genau, weil es darauf ankommt, wie auf diese Sprachmodelle zugegriffen wird. Es gibt beispielsweise OpenAI, die Sprachmodelle werden \u00fcber verschiedene Cloud Funktionen bereitgestellt. Eine der bekanntesten ist sicherlich die Azure Cloud. Und diese Sprachmodelle sind weder Open Source. Dadurch, dass sie nicht Open Source sind, k\u00f6nnen sie beispielsweise nicht auf eigene Hardware gehostet werden. Und es gibt Angebote, sowohl amerikanischer als auch europ\u00e4ischer Art, wo die Modelle eben mindestens die Modellparameter Open Source gestellt sind, sodass die Bundesverwaltung, wenn sie denn m\u00f6chte, diese Modelle nehmen kann und auf ihre eigenen Hardware laufen lassen kann. Und das ist mindestens aus der Perspektive digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ja durchaus notwendig auch, wenn beispielsweise Daten verarbeitet werden sollen, die 'n gewissen Sicherheitssicherheitsstandard erf\u00fcllen m\u00fcssen, weil dann eben keine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika beispielsweise stattfindet. Das hei\u00dft, wenn jetzt beispielsweise B\u00fcrger*innenanfragen kommen, die irgendwo auf 'nem Server zwischengespeichert werden m\u00fcssen, der in den USA steht, hat man nicht so richtig die Kontrolle, was passiert mit diesen Anfragen, was passiert mit den Daten, die dahinter liegen, wenn ich's auf meine eigene Hardware speicher, also auf meinem eigenen Server beispielsweise, der in der Bundesverwaltung steht, da bin ich einfach unabh\u00e4ngiger und sicherer, hab ich so richtig verstanden? Genau und Nicole korrigier mich gerne, aber da gibt's ja auch klare Regularien, was erlaubt und was verboten ist. Also eine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich. Und da ist wirklich auch, nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich. Und da ist wirklich auch 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein innerhalb der Projekte vorhanden. Also von allen Projekten, diesen 33, die Du ja schon erw\u00e4hnt hast, gibt es kein einziges, was angegeben hat, dass die Server au\u00dferhalb der EU stehen w\u00fcrden. Also grade in dem Bezug gibt es 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t. Wir haben uns das ja auf verschiedenen oder aus verschiedenen Perspektiven angeguckt oder wie wir's definiert haben. Da geht's bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t einerseits die Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit. Also verstehe ich \u00fcberhaupt die Anwendung? Habe ich genug Kompetenzen, das auch beurteilen zu k\u00f6nnen, auch umsetzen zu k\u00f6nnen? Dann die Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, also hab ich \u00fcberhaupt verschiedene Alternativen oder gibt es eigentlich nur einen Anbieter, auf den ich zur\u00fcckgreifen kann? Dann geborene ich mich nat\u00fcrlich sehr schnell in eine Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, die nat\u00fcrlich sehr unterschiedliche negative Konsequenzen haben kann. Also zum einen beispielsweise sehr hohe Lizenzgeb\u00fchren, aber andererseits kann es nat\u00fcrlich auch als geopolitisches Druckmittel gegebenenfalls genutzt werden, wie wir das ja in letzter Zeit immer h\u00e4ufiger gesehen haben. Und grade deshalb ist das Thema digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, Doria hat's schon gesagt, ist eigentlich spielt schon l\u00e4nger eine Rolle, aber ist jetzt noch mal ganz besonders ins Bewusstsein getreten. Und der 3. Punkt ist der Einfluss auf Anbieter. Also habe ich genug Marktmacht beispielsweise, in Vertragsverhandlungen gewisse Dinge durchzusetzen, gerade auch in Bezug auf Informationssicherheit und Datenschutz und kann ich auch steuern, beispielsweise wie die Anwendung weiterentwickelt werden? Wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich sehr hohe eigene Kompetenzen habe und die Anwendung beispielsweise selbst entwickel und das bei mir auch selbst hoste, dann ist dieser Einfluss auf Anbieter nat\u00fcrlich nicht so relevant, wie wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich da auf Fremdleistungen setze insgesamt. Genau und diese 3 Ziele, die Nicole gerade erw\u00e4hnt hat, die haben wir uns nicht ausgedacht, sondern die stammt tats\u00e4chlich vom IT Planungsrat aus einem Strategiepapier von 20 21. Und diese Ziele, um's noch mal zu wiederholen, das sind Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit und Einfluss auf Anbieter. Und das diese 3 Ziele ziehen sich auch durch unser unsere gesamte Studie. Und wir haben dann auf dieser Basis uns gefragt, wir haben diese Ziele? Wie k\u00f6nnen wir sie erreichen? Und sind dann von da gestartet. Blicken wir noch mal etwas genauer auf die Studie selbst. Wie seid ihr vorgegangen? Wie habt ihr auch methodisch gearbeitet, Dloven? Wir haben diese die Studie dieses Jahr gestartet Anfang diesen Jahres und das ist letztendlich 1 1 1 1 recht gro\u00dfes Projekt geworden. Zentral in dieser Studie war, dass wir eine empirische Analyse durchgef\u00fchrt haben. Du hattest gesagt. Wir haben insgesamt 33 Projekte betrachtet. Eigentlich waren's urspr\u00fcnglich viel mehr. Es waren 180 Projekte, die wir vom Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten. Das ist eine Plattform, die das Innenministerium letztes Jahr bereitgestellt hat, wo alle KI Projekte der Bundesverwaltung gelistet werden. Von der sind wir ausgegangen und haben diese Projekte gefiltert nach Projekten, wo eben gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle verwendet werden. Und sind dann auf diese Projekte, das waren dann 80, wo die wir identifiziert sind zugegangen und haben eben Daten erhoben. Und zwar Daten zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t nach unserem Verst\u00e4ndnis. Und f\u00fcr unser Verst\u00e4ndnis ausgehend von den 3 Zielen zu pr\u00e4zisieren, haben wir 'n Indikator Katalog entwickelt. Und diese Indikatoren waren folgenderma\u00dfen, dass wir jeder Indikator hat quasi einen Wert, den er annehmen kann von 0 bis 4, wobei 4 der Maximalwert, also der die Wunschauspr\u00e4gung ist und 0 quasi keine Auspr\u00e4gung, also die negativste. Und diese Indikatoren haben wir in einen Erhebungsbogen umformuliert und dann sind dann die Projekte herangetreten mit dem Wunsch, die auszuf\u00fcllen. Und mit den Resultaten, mit den Ergebnissen sind wir dann, die haben wir dann verarbeitet und in dieser Studie aufbereitet. Das ist der Kern der Studie. Wir sind aber noch dar\u00fcber hinausgegangen und haben eine Marktbetrachtung durchgef\u00fchrt. Wir haben uns die aktuellen Strategien sowohl im Inland als auch im Ausland zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t mit immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle. Mit Bezug immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle angeschaut. Und sind dann zum Schluss haben alles zusammengef\u00fchrt zu einigen weiterf\u00fchrenden Handlungsempfehlungen. Ja, eine Beobachtung, die haben wir grad schon ein wenig auseinandergenommen, n\u00e4mlich die Bundesverwaltung entwickelt Anwendungen selbst auch auf eigener Hardware, auf eigenen Server. Und da habt ihr auch gesagt, das findet ihr eigentlich so ganz gut und das kann man auch so unterst\u00fctzen. 'N anderes Thema, das ihr beobachtet habt, das ist grad schon gefallen, der Begriff Open Source. Auch Open Source Systeme stammen h\u00e4ufig aus den USA oder aus Asien und ihr sagt aber, na ja, wir w\u00fcrden pl\u00e4dieren f\u00fcr L\u00f6sungen, die auf europ\u00e4ische Normen und Werte, Zitat, ausgerichtet sind. Was steckt hinter der Idee? Da m\u00fcssen wir vielleicht ganz kleines bisschen ausholen und diesen Open Source Begriff im Kontext von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen noch mal definieren. Ja, gerne. Genau. Und zwar in bei herk\u00f6mmlicher Software ist Open Source relativ klar. Also Code, eine Software besteht aus Code. Und wenn diese dieser Code offengelegt ist, dann k\u00f6nnen wir von Open Source reden. Bei der Entwicklung und Bereitstellung von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen ist das nicht ganz so leicht. Wir haben zum einen, und das ist das Zentrale, wenn ich 'n Sprachmodell offenstelle, dann stell ich eigentlich die Parameter und die Struktur der des Sprachmodells auf. Und diese Parameter, das sind letztendlich einfach nur Zahlen in in Matrixform. Und diese Zahlen kann ich mir hernehmen und in in mein Modell stecken und dann kann ich das betreiben. Aber ein gro\u00dfes zentrales Ziel von Open Source ist Nachvollziehbarkeit. Und Nachvollziehbarkeit ist allein dadurch bei Sprachmodellen nicht gegeben. Ich brauch eben viel mehr Information diese Parameter herum und zwar vor allem, was den Trainingsprozess angeht. Das hei\u00dft, es m\u00fcssen muss offengelegt werden, welche Daten verwendet wurden. Also Sprachmodelle werden ja immer auf einem gro\u00dfen Datensatz trainiert. Und dieser Datensatz ist eigentlich zentral daf\u00fcr, nachvollziehen zu k\u00f6nnen, wie das Sprachmodell funktioniert. Genau. Und und dieses Verst\u00e4ndnis von Open Source hat sich in den letzten Jahren nun mal ver\u00e4ndert. Und grade die nicht europ\u00e4ischen Anbieter verstehen unter Open Source eben einen recht recht begrenzten Blick eben. Sie sie \u00f6ffnen lediglich die Modellparameter und sagen dann, sie haben 'n Open Source Modell. Und wir, 'n europ\u00e4isches Verst\u00e4ndnis ist 'n bisschen weiterf\u00fchren, ne. Wir warten halt oder mit, etwas vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source haben eben das, was ich grade erkl\u00e4rt hatte, die Informationen das ganze das Sprachmodell herum ebenfalls. Und das w\u00fcnscht ihr euch eben auch, was jetzt die Entwicklung angeht, die Sprachmodelle herum, dass die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch aus dem Sinne der Transparenz, der Autonomie selbst solche europ\u00e4ischen L\u00f6sungen entwickelt? Ob sie die selber entwickeln muss, so weit w\u00fcrden wir nicht gehen. Also auf Sprachmodellebene, wir haben durchaus Also wir haben eine Empfehlung drin, wo wir sagen, es sollte evaluiert werden, ob es sinnvoll w\u00e4re, ein eigenes Sprachmodell zu entwickeln. Aber wir sehen auch die Risiken dabei. Und die Risiken sind vor allem die enorm hohen Kosten bei gleichzeitig hoher dynamischer Marktentwicklung. Also wenn wenn wir uns die Modelle an von OpenAI noch mal anschauen und da die Modelle, die vor 2 Jahren rauskommen, sind heute komplett veraltet und niemand w\u00fcrde sie mehr nutzen, eben weil der weil die Entwicklung so rasant fortschreitet. Wir haben jetzt in der in der Schweiz ist ein Sprachmodell entwickelt worden nach diesen Standards, die ich eben beschrieben hatte. Das ist jetzt im September rausgekommen. Das ist vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source. Und bevor Deutschland jetzt sagt, wir brauchen so was auch, sollte zuerst mal evaluiert werden von den Modellen, die's denn jetzt bereits in Europa gibt, sind vielleicht einige davon besser nutzbar und sollten wir vielleicht auf uns auf die Folge fokussieren. Genau, die Krux w\u00e4re ja dabei. Also wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich sage, es wir machen einen einen europ\u00e4ischen Effort daraus und versuchen jetzt auch, ein Sprachmodell zu entwickeln, was tats\u00e4chlich mit den mit den gro\u00dfen etablierten Anbietern, einige haben wir jetzt genannt, mithalten kann. Dann m\u00fcsste es tats\u00e4chlich mithalten k\u00f6nnen, was die Leistung angeht und sollte dar\u00fcber hinaus dann eben noch weitere Kriterien erf\u00fcllen? Also beispielsweise einem strengeren Datenschutz- und Pers\u00f6nlichkeitsrechte, Urheberrechtsverst\u00e4ndnisfolgen, wie es hier in Europa vielleicht schon ein bisschen anders ist als in anderen L\u00e4ndern, die f\u00fchrend in der Entwicklung sind, die den USA oder China beispielsweise und genau, solche solche Werte eben auch pr\u00e4sentieren. Und dann ist schon die Frage, ist das realistisch als Ziel sicherlich w\u00fcnschenswert, aber man muss da einfach gut abw\u00e4gen, weil es nat\u00fcrlich auch ja enorme Ressourcen braucht, so etwas erst einmal zu entwickeln. Aber 'n bisschen niedrigschwelliger ansetzen kann man auf jeden Fall, also wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch in so hohem Ma\u00dfe, wie wir's ja festgestellt haben, auch auf Open Source setzt, selbst setzt, dann w\u00e4re es ja vielleicht w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn sich die Verwaltung auch st\u00e4rker engagiert. Also beispielsweise in Open Source Allianzen und Konsortien und auch an Open Source ja Open Source st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt, nicht nur finanziell, sondern tats\u00e4chlich auch daran mitarbeitet, organisatorisch, gegebenenfalls auch technisch, sich st\u00e4rker mit dieser Community vernetzt, ein Teil davon wird. Und dadurch nat\u00fcrlich, wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch direkt an solchen Entwicklungen partizipiert und mitarbeitet, dann nat\u00fcrlich auch ihre eigenen Bedarfe sehr viel einfacher und schneller einbringen kann und dadurch die Entwicklung nat\u00fcrlich auch 'n bisschen steuern kann, dass das dann auch tats\u00e4chlich f\u00fcr die Verwaltung selbst am Ende wieder sehr gut nutzbar ist. Weil das fehlt teilweise noch ein bisschen. Also dass tats\u00e4chlich, dass es tats\u00e4chlich relativ wenig gibt, was explizit jetzt auf die Verwaltung zugeschnitten ist, was vielleicht ja auch ein Grund daf\u00fcr ist, dass vieles einfach aktuell, was in der Bundesverwaltung auf jeden Fall passiert, dann auch Eigenentwicklungen sind. Nicole, das bringen wir gleich zum n\u00e4chsten Punkt, was wir diskutieren. Wir reden jetzt ja immer von der Verwaltung, aber nat\u00fcrlich gibt's ja sowohl in Deutschland als auch auf europ\u00e4ischer Ebene zig verschiedene Beh\u00f6rden. Wenn die jetzt anfangen, alle ihre eigene Softwarel\u00f6sung zu stricken, dann ist das nat\u00fcrlich teuer und auch sehr umst\u00e4ndlich. Wie kann man denn ein einheitliches und auch beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifendes System etablieren? Also wie kann man da mehr in sonen Art Zusammenarbeiten kommen? Da gibt's verschiedene M\u00f6glichkeiten. Also wir haben schon festgestellt, dass sich die Mehrheit der Projekte, die wir jetzt befragt haben, auch austauschen mit mit externen mit anderen KI Projekten und das ist nat\u00fcrlich eine M\u00f6glichkeit, wenn man wei\u00df, was in anderen Beh\u00f6rden schon entwickelt wird, dann vielleicht zu sagen, na gut, dann brauchen wir da vielleicht jetzt nicht noch mal was Eigenes zu entwickeln. Wir k\u00f6nnen das ja erst mal 'n bisschen begleiten, vielleicht machen wir's auch zusammen und k\u00f6nnen es dann hinterher nachnutzen. Da kommen wir dann gleich schon zu zu 1 Krux, weil Open Source wird genutzt, aber was man selbst entwickelt hat, dann auch wieder als Open Source oder zur Nachnutzung bereitzustellen, da hapert es noch ein bisschen. Also das war 1 der Schwachpunkte, der sich noch herausgestellt hat in der Studie. Was gegebenenfalls auch vielfach daran liegt, dass in den Teams, die daf\u00fcr zust\u00e4ndig sind, die entsprechenden rechtlichen Kompetenzen nicht so stark vorhanden sind, wie beispielsweise fachliche oder technische Kompetenzen zur Entwicklung der entsprechenden Anwendungen. Also da k\u00f6nnte man definitiv noch was verbessern, dass ich dann sage, okay, wenn hier schon was entwickelt wird, dann k\u00f6nnen es andere sollten das andere auch leichter nachnutzen k\u00f6nnen und dann sollte ich auch versuchen, es vielleicht als Open Source sogar zur Verf\u00fcgung zu stellen, da den Kreis der Nachnutzenden noch gr\u00f6\u00dfer zu halten. Genau, das w\u00e4re das eine und sehr stark vereinfachen w\u00fcrde es das nat\u00fcrlich auch, wenn man eine gemeinsame Infrastruktur h\u00e4tte. Also das war auch ein Wunsch, der vielfach ge\u00e4u\u00dfert wurde. Daran wird in Teilen auch schon ein bisschen gearbeitet, recht von Keepads. Dorian, vielleicht kannst Du dazu gleich noch 'n bisschen was sagen, aber das, weil auch da macht jeder noch son bisschen sein eigenes S\u00fcppchen und ja, dadurch hat man nat\u00fcrlich, wenn man dann nur f\u00fcr sich selbst beschafft, eine geringere Markt macht. Wir haben Insell\u00f6sungen, wir haben ganz verschiedene Dinge, die da die da beschafft werden und es w\u00e4re schon einfacher, wenn man sagt, wir haben da eine gemeinsame KI Infrastruktur, entsprechende GPU Kapazit\u00e4ten, die wir alle nutzen k\u00f6nnen. Dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir das insgesamt vielleicht auch besser ausnutzen, dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir besser zusammenarbeiten, Dinge, die entwickelt sind, auch teilen und haben vielleicht auch gegen\u00fcber den Anbietern noch mal eine st\u00e4rkere Marktmacht, wenn wir uns da einfach als Nachfrageseite zusammentun auf Seiten der Verwaltung. Also sone gemeinsame Infrastruktur auf deutscher, vielleicht sogar europ\u00e4ischer Ebene, Dorianne. Wie kann das aussehen? Ah, ich m\u00f6chte gern noch 2 Punkte zu dem erg\u00e4nzen, was Nicole gesagt hat. Ich denke, genau dieser Infrastrukturgedanke ist bei KI entscheidend, und zwar diese Trennung zu machen, die wir am Anfang aufgemacht haben zwischen Sprachmodell und Anwendung. Wenn die Sprachmodelle zentral auf spezialisierter KI Hardware bereitgestellt werden k\u00f6nnten, idealerweise noch an unterschiedlichen Schutzbedarfen, dann k\u00f6nnten unterschiedliche Beh\u00f6rden auf diese zentral bereitgestellten K-Ressourcen zugreifen und k\u00f6nnten eventuell, falls sinnvoll, ihre eigenen Anwendungen darauf entwickeln. Dann h\u00e4tten wir auch diese Trennung zwischen Kompetenzen, weil Kompetenzen in der Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich inzwischen in fast jeder Beh\u00f6rde vorhanden. Und eine spezialisierte Anwendung f\u00fcr den spezialisierten Anwendungsfall in 1 Beh\u00f6rde zu entwickeln, das sollte kein Problem sein. Wenn die KI Kompetenz von anderer Seite kommt, Daran hapert das ja h\u00e4ufiger. Und diese KI Kompetenz k\u00f6nnte dann eben an dieser zentralen Stelle aufgebaut werden, wo dann die KI Ressourcen bereitgestellt sind. Und die nachnutzenden Beh\u00f6rden w\u00fcrden einfach auf diese Ressourcen zugreifen und w\u00fcrden mittels dieser dann ihre Anwendung entwickeln. Und wir haben uns Projekte angeschaut, die so was in die Richtung tats\u00e4chlich auch tun. Also wir haben in eine von den 33 Projekten auf Bundesverwaltung haben wir eine grunds\u00e4tzliche Unterscheidung gemacht in jene, welche Beh\u00f6rden spezifisch f\u00fcr sich selbst etwas entwickeln und welche, die den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Fokus anstreben. Und vor allem dieser Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifende Aspekt war f\u00fcr uns sehr interessant. Und ein Projekt, Nicole hat es grade genannt, ist KeePids. KeePids ist vom ITZ Bund aufgebaut und verfolgt eben diesen Ansatz, dass im ITZ Bund ja viel technische und KI Kompetenz vorhanden ist. Und die Idee bei KeepIDS ist, dass Beh\u00f6rden auf des ITZ Bund zukommen k\u00f6nnen und mit der Bitte oder der die vielleicht den Bedarf haben, eine Karrierenanwendung zu entwickeln. Und das ITZ Bund hostet also hostet dann auf Ihren Ressourcen sicher und halt sicher die Modelle und k\u00f6nnen gegebenenfalls auch bei der Anwendungsentwicklung unterst\u00fctzen. Genau. Also zumindest eine zentrale Beh\u00f6rde, die Ansprechpartner ist und auch entwickeln kann. Genau. Mhm. Schauen wir uns noch 'n weiteren Punkt an, den ihr beschrieben habt. Diese M-Systeme, die sollten die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit der Verwaltung nicht einschr\u00e4nken, wenn sie ausfallen. Finde ich auch sehr plausibel und sehr nachvollziehbar. Erst haben wir schon gesagt, eingangs, na ja, diese Systeme sollen ja nicht Mitarbeitende ersetzen, sie sollen sie unterst\u00fctzen. Dennoch, wenn ich solche Systeme in der Hand hab, dann bin ich ja sehr viel produktiver. Und wenn die ausfallen, kann's ja dennoch, ne, einfach schwerwiegende Folgen haben, ist das einfach riskant, ne, dass man einem sagt, wir haben immer weniger Mitarbeitende, die immer effektiver arbeiten mit solchen Systemen und wenn sie ausfallen, haben wir halt 'n Problem? Zuk\u00fcnftig kann das Risiko steigen. Und je h\u00f6her das Risiko, desto wichtiger ist es, sicherzustellen, dass wir diese Systeme nicht ausfallen, dass wir nicht in irgendwelchen Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten uns bewegen, wo externe Akteure dann sagen k\u00f6nnen, wir wollen der deutschland \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung schaden. Wir stellen diese Systeme jetzt ab und unsere gesamte Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit ist dadurch bedroht. Das sollte nicht passieren. Und das ist eigentlich auch 1 der zentralen Gedanken bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, diese Schmerzpunkte nicht entstehen zu lassen. Wir haben ja nur den aktuell den den den Stand den aktuellen Stand betrachtet und kommen eben zu dem Schluss, dass das derzeit nicht der Fall ist, dass selbst wenn diese Systeme, was nicht passieren wird, alle ausfallen sollten, w\u00fcrde die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung mindestens derzeit noch handlungsf\u00e4hig bleiben. Mhm. Ja und Nicole, ich dachte jetzt auch auf der anderen Seite, die Verwaltung ist ja im Fall 1 Grippewelle oder wir erinnern uns an Corona in eine Pandemie auch eingeschr\u00e4nkt, ne. Insofern, solche Gefahren gibt's wahrscheinlich immer oder? Solche Gefahren k\u00f6nnen genau nat\u00fcrlich durch durch verschiedene Dinge bedingt sein. Allerdings, wir haben es ja jetzt gesehen beispielsweise mit der AWS Cloud und entsprechenden Ausf\u00e4llen, je nachdem, ob man dann eben genau vielleicht eine Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit hat, ein 1 redundant ausgelegtes System oder nicht, kann man davon nat\u00fcrlich st\u00e4rker oder weniger stark betroffen sein. Dorian hat schon gesagt, aktuell ist das Risiko eher gering. Das liegt daran, dass die meisten Anwendungen sich eher auf, also eher noch nicht die komplette Verwaltung betreffen, sondern f\u00fcr spezifische Fachreferate oder f\u00fcr einzelne Ministerien konzipiert sind und auch f\u00fcr relativ spezialisierte Aufgaben gedacht sind. Also beispielsweise 'n Rechercheassistent eben. Mhm. Und wenn er dann ausf\u00e4llt, dann ist das 'n bisschen nervig und ich brauche ein bisschen l\u00e4nger, aber also man kann jetzt nicht davon sprechen, dass die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit bedroht ist. Aber wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich Systeme habe, die f\u00fcr vielf\u00e4ltige Aufgaben genutzt werden und die vielleicht auch auf die komplette Verwaltung skaliert werden, dann werden solche Probleme nat\u00fcrlich virulenter und dann muss ich nat\u00fcrlich noch st\u00e4rker Sicherungsma\u00dfnahmen treffen und da gibt's ja verschiedene, die wir untersuchen oder die wir auch vorschlagen. Also es gibt zum Beispiel auch doch einige Projekte, bei denen ich zum Beispiel zwischen verschiedenen Sprachmodellen auch unterschiedlicher Anbieter w\u00e4hlen und wechseln kann. Und wenn dann nat\u00fcrlich ein Sprachmodell beispielsweise nicht mehr verf\u00fcgbar w\u00e4re, w\u00e4r's ja nicht tragisch, weil ich ja immer noch weitere zur Auswahl h\u00e4tte und trotzdem ja die Anwendung weiter nutzen kann und die Aufgaben weiter erf\u00fcllen kann. Und da gibt's nat\u00fcrlich noch andere Ma\u00dfnahmen, die man dann entsprechend ergreifen kann. Es gibt noch 'n paar so abschlie\u00dfend weitere Herausforderungen, die ihr seht, rechtliche Unsicherheiten beim Einsatz von KI Modellen, die KI Kompetenz in einigen Teams, die habt ihr schon angesprochen, aber auch organisatorische H\u00fcrden, die Entwicklungsprozesse erschweren k\u00f6nnen. Wo dr\u00fcckt der Schuh am meisten? Genau, also wir haben neben der quantitativen Datenerhebung Ende auch noch Interviews gef\u00fchrt mit den Projektverantwortlichen der Projekte, die wir als als relevant erachtet haben. Und eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig bem\u00e4ngelt wurde die schwierig rechtlichen Unsicherheiten, die aktuell vorherrschen. Das ist die, also das ist vor allem das Zusammenspiel aus der KI Verordnung der der EU, aber auch in der DSGVO, welche rechtlichen Regeln wann wie greifen, wie das auch mit Open Source zusammenspielt. Das war ein Punkt, Nicole hatte das ja vorhin auch erw\u00e4hnt, dass viele zwar auf Open Source zugreifen, ihre eigenen entwickelten Anwendungen werden aber nicht Open Source stellen. Das ist teilweise eben aus aus Unsicherheiten heraus so, hat sich so entwickelt. Und dann der andere Punkt ist, dass die die Kompetenzen innerhalb der Entwicklungsteams eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig jetzt relativ hoch angesehen werden, der die das Risiko eher bei deren auf auf Ebene der Nutzenden angesehen wird. Also da wird stark da daf\u00fcr pl\u00e4diert, deutlich mehr in den Kompetenzaufbau zu investieren, weil das Risiko letztendlich ja bei Also eine Anwendung kann nur so gut sein wie der Nutzende am Ende, der diese Anwendung dann verwendet. Und wir sehen jetzt schon auch aus anderen Studien, dass teilweise selbst wenn theoretisch Eigenentwicklungen bereitst\u00fcnden, die Verwaltungsmitarbeiten zu teilen, trotzdem eher auf ChatGPT zugreifen. Kann man jetzt sehen, wie man m\u00f6chte, aber da liegen auf jeden Fall Risiken, die die nicht ja, die die betrachtet werden m\u00fcssen. Genau, was wir noch hatten. Also zum einen war es ja dieses, es w\u00e4re w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn es irgendwie eine gemeinsame KI Cloud Infrastruktur g\u00e4be, die man nutzen k\u00f6nnte. Und was also wir haben uns ja auch die Daten angeguckt, die genutzt werden. Da gab es, glaube ich, kein einziges Projekt, was auf propriet\u00e4re Daten zur\u00fcckgegriffen hat. Das hei\u00dft, die Daten, die genutzt wurden, die waren entweder \u00f6ffentlich oder eben eigene Daten der jeweiligen Beh\u00f6rde. Aber grade da hat haben tats\u00e4chlich auch Probleme geschlummert, dass diese Daten in so heterogenen Formaten nicht standardisiert vorliegen und deshalb halt auch zum Teil nicht auf jeden Fall nicht optimal nutzbar sind f\u00fcr die jeweiligen Anwendungen. Also das ist tats\u00e4chlich aktuell auch noch ein Hemmschuh, was solche Systeme in der Verwaltung betrifft. Einfach ja, es sind viele Daten da, aber teilweise sind sie halt so heterogen oder oder unstrukturiert und unstandardisiert, dass sie sich nicht bestm\u00f6glich nutzen lassen. Und da wird ja auch schon einiges getan, deswegen ist es zu vermuten, dass sich die Datenqualit\u00e4t in der Zukunft erh\u00f6hen wird, aber alle Daten, die schon vorliegen, auch noch mal deren Qualit\u00e4t zu verbessern, ist nat\u00fcrlich ein riesiges Unterfangen, deswegen wird das wahrscheinlich eher nicht angegangen werden Und damit bleibt dieses Problem dann in Teilen auch bestehen. So unterm Strich, wenn ihr jetzt an diese auf diese Studie blickt, was nehmt ihr f\u00fcr euch mit? Also was hat euch vielleicht \u00fcberrascht und was wird euch auch weiter besch\u00e4ftigen? Die gr\u00f6\u00dfte Erkenntnis f\u00fcr mich ist gewesen, und zwar die ist positiv, dass fast durchg\u00e4ngig eigentlich Kriterien digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zumindest in Teilen schon beachtet werden, dass viel auf Open Source gesetzt wird, unabh\u00e4ngig jetzt, ob amerikanisch oder europ\u00e4isch, aber Open Source wird eingesetzt. Und insbesondere bei den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Projekten, die also entsprechend auch 'n h\u00f6heren Einfluss auf die auf m\u00f6gliche Risiken zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t haben k\u00f6nnten, eben weil mehr Menschen dieses System am Ende nutzen werden, werden wird wird digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zentral betrachtet und beachtet in den Projekten. Das ist eigentlich und das ist 'n positives Fazit, was wir hier ziehen und was wir gerne auch unterstreichen w\u00fcrden und dann eben auch mit den Handlungsempfehlungen in die Richtung denken, dass das eben bewahrt bleibt und in Zukunft noch st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt werden werden kann. Nicole, was nimmst Du mit? Genau, das h\u00e4tte ich auch so gesagt. Also das dass tats\u00e4chlich innerhalb der Projekte ein 1 sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr diese Problematik besteht, auch schon diverse Ma\u00dfnahmen ergriffen werden, zu verhindern, dass man in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten \u00fcberhaupt einmal geraten kann. Ich find's auch positiv, dass es schon ja, dass es schon viele Projekte gibt, die sich auch untereinander austauschen. Auch da ist der Wunsch, da das eigentlich noch zu intensivieren. Das scheitert dann teilweise tats\u00e4chlich eher an, ja, an geringer Zeit f\u00fcr solchen Austausch und dass ja auch schon versucht wird, das noch weiter zu verst\u00e4rken, also die Zusammenarbeit noch st\u00e4rker zu erm\u00f6glichen, Nachnutzung zu erm\u00f6glichen, Austausch, dass da eben nicht Parallelentwicklungen stattfinden, beispielsweise \u00fcber den Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten, dass auch tats\u00e4chlich zentral ja Beratungs- und Kompetenzstellen geschaffen werden, zum Beispiel das BEKI, die dann auch \u00fcber entsprechende Kompetenzen verf\u00fcgen und beraten k\u00f6nnen in der kompletten Bundesverwaltung. Also da ist 'n hohes Bewusstsein und da wird einfach auch schon schon einiges getan und auch das Fazit, dass wir sagen k\u00f6nnen, aktuell sehen wir eigentlich da noch keinen Bereich im im roten Bereich, wo wir sagen, da ist jetzt aber eine 1 sehr starke Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, was bei ja den Es gibt ja schon andere Studien, die sich mit digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t in der Bundesverwaltung besch\u00e4ftigen, beispielsweise im Kontext Datenbanken oder B\u00fcrosoftware. Da war das Fazit gr\u00f6\u00dftenteils sehr anders. Da war aber eigentlich bestanden die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten auch immer schon sehr lange und es ging in den Studien wahrscheinlich eher darum zu schauen, wie kann man das vielleicht abmildern oder irgendwie da rauskommen? Aber jetzt im Bereich der gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle ist diese Betrachtung einfach schon sehr fr\u00fchzeitig angesto\u00dfen worden, bevor solche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten sich tats\u00e4chlich schon tats\u00e4chlich schon entstehen oder sich verfestigen konnten. Und auch da w\u00fcrde ich sagen, das ist sehr, sehr positiv, dass einfach mit dieser Betrachtung m\u00f6glicher Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten im Kontext KI und grade gro\u00dfer Sprachmodelle jetzt schon so fr\u00fchzeitig in der Entwicklung begonnen wurde und es ist nat\u00fcrlich auch eine Empfehlung, das das fortzuf\u00fchren und jetzt nicht zu sagen, okay, die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten, die sind jetzt noch nicht da oder auf jeden Fall nicht gro\u00df, sondern es ist halt 'n sehr hochdynamisches Feld. Man muss nat\u00fcrlich auch weiter betrachten, wie sich das entwickelt, auch mit mit neuen Entwicklungen, die dazu beobachten, sind KI Agentensysteme und weitere, die wir in der Studie auch schon ansprechen. Und nat\u00fcrlich kann es auch Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten geben in Bezug auf andere Ebenen, die aber mit gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen zusammenh\u00e4ngen, beispielsweise Hardware oder Cloud. Das war jetzt au\u00dferhalb des Scopes dieser Studie, aber auch da ist es nat\u00fcrlich m\u00f6glich, dass sich die Bundesverwaltung in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten begeben k\u00f6nnte. Und wie sie das eben nicht machen kann und wie souver\u00e4ne Chatbots auch eine souver\u00e4ne Verwaltung st\u00fctzen, dar\u00fcber haben wir heute gesprochen in. Digital, dem Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums \u00f6ffentlicher IT. Ganz herzlichen Dank an Nicole Opiala und Dorian Wachsmann. Sch\u00f6n, dass ihr hier wart. Dankesch\u00f6n. Danke dir. Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und vielen weiteren Apps und schreibt uns auch gern eine Bewertung, wenn ihr m\u00f6gt. 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"speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.60734326}], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": {"transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Mal Hand aufs Herz, wer von euch nutzt regelm\u00e4\u00dfig KI Tools wie ChatGPT, sich die Arbeit son bisschen zu erleichtern? Also ich beinah t\u00e4glich. Als Rechercheassistenz sind Chatbots f\u00fcr mich gar nicht mehr wegzudenken. Damit bin ich auch in guter Gesellschaft. 800000000 Menschen weltweit nutzen allein ChatGPT jede Woche.\n\nDie Grundlage dieser Tools sind gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle, auch Large Language Model oder LLM genannt. Diese KI Modelle, mit denen man chatten und sich austauschen kann, sind nicht nur eine Alternative zum Google. Sie unterst\u00fctzen auch Mitarbeitende in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung. Gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle werten Dokumente aus, sortieren Anfragen von B\u00fcrger*innen und unterst\u00fctzen bei Analyseaufgaben. Was genau LLMs k\u00f6nnen, welche Zukunft sie in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung haben und warum man mit ihnen schnell in gef\u00e4hrliche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten ger\u00e4t, das besprechen wir heute in diesem Podcast.\n\nHerzlich willkommen beim \u00f6FIT Podcast restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts f\u00fcr offene Kommunikationssysteme. Ich bin Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts. Das ist zum einen Nicole Opiala. Sie ist stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums \u00d6ffentliche IT und forscht zu soziotechnischen Trends an der Schnittstelle zwischen Gesellschaft, Verwaltung und Politik. Nicole ist ja Stammgast bei uns und auch wieder heute online zugeschaltet aus Oldenburg.\n\nSch\u00f6n, dass Du da bist.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo Philipp.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und hier vor Ort im Studio in Berlin, Dorian Wachsmann. Er ist wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter im Kompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentliche IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus. Seine Themenschwerpunkte sind nachhaltige Digitalisierung und k\u00fcnstliche Intelligenz. Au\u00dferdem arbeitet er im Bereich der Web- und Softwareentwicklung. Sch\u00f6nen guten Tag.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hallo Philipp, sch\u00f6n, dass ich da sein darf.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, steigen wir direkt mal ein. Der Beamtenbund sch\u00e4tzt, dass in Deutschland rund 570000 Stellen fehlen im \u00f6ffentlichen Dienst. Nicole, k\u00f6nnen KI Tools diese L\u00fccke f\u00fcllen, diese enorme L\u00fccke an Fachkr\u00e4ften?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also es geht nicht so sehr darum, eine L\u00fccke zu f\u00fcllen und quasi Mitarbeitende zu ersetzen, sondern eher darum, die Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, ein bisschen zu, ja, ihnen die Arbeit ein bisschen zu erleichtern, sie zu unterst\u00fctzen, sie in ihrer Arbeit effizienter zu machen. Indem, Du hast ja schon paar Beispiele im Intro genannt, zum Beispiel Informationen schneller aufgefunden, schneller aufbereitet werden k\u00f6nnen. Es ist ja teilweise eine sehr textlastige Arbeit. Da gibt's sehr umfangreiche Dokumente, die erstellt werden, die aber auch gesichtet werden m\u00fcssen, Vertr\u00e4ge, irgendwelche Vorlagen et cetera und da kann KI eben sehr gut unterst\u00fctzen und den Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, die Arbeit ein bisschen erleichtern.\n\nSpeaker 0: F\u00fcr eure Studie habt ihr euch gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, 33 Projekte insgesamt. Warum eigentlich dieser Fokus auf digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t? Ihr hattet ja auch 'n anderen w\u00e4hlen k\u00f6nnen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ist, denk ich, sp\u00e4testens seit diesem Jahr angekommen. Auf der gro\u00dfen politischen B\u00fchne wird viel diskutiert. Tats\u00e4chlich ist das Konzept selbst ja auch schon \u00e4lter und wird in unterschiedlichen Kontexten unterschiedlich verwendet. Wir haben jetzt aktuell, wenn \u00fcber digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t gesprochen wird, h\u00e4ufig den Open Source Gedanken prim\u00e4r im Kopf. Aber es geht halt dar\u00fcber hinaus, wir m\u00fcssen, wenn wir digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t betrachten wollen, die Kompetenzen in der Verwaltung st\u00e4rken.\n\nWir m\u00fcssen Anbieter Unabh\u00e4ngigkeit sichern. Und wir von We Firmenkompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentlicher IT haben digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t eigentlich \u00fcber 3 zentrale Eigenschaften definiert und das ist eigenst\u00e4ndig, selbstbestimmt und sicher. Und hinter jedem dieser 3 Eigenschaften stehen verschiedene Anforderungen, die erf\u00fcllt sein m\u00fcssen. Also wenn wir uns vorstellen, ich will mich selbstbestimmt in der digitalen Welt bewegen, dann bedeutet das halt, ich darf nicht abh\u00e4ngig von einem Unternehmen sein. Wenn ich mich eigenst\u00e4ndig bewegen m\u00f6chte, brauch ich die entsprechenden Kompetenzen dazu, das zu tun.\n\nUnd eben, mich sicher zu bewegen, brauch ich ebenfalls die entsprechenden technischen Grundlagen, aber auch Kompetenzen. Und das haben wir als Grundlage genommen f\u00fcr unsere Studie. Uns die Projekte, die aktuell in der Bundesverwaltung sich mit in k\u00fcnstlicher Intelligenz und genaue Sprachmodellen besch\u00e4ftigen, halt einmal vorzunehmen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bleiben wir noch mal direkt dabei und schauen uns mal 'n bisschen genauer an, was ihr da beobachtet habt. Das eine ist, ihr habt gesehen, dass die Bundesverwaltung ihre technischen Systeme mit den gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen selbst entwickelt und eben dadurch nicht abh\u00e4ngig ist von etablierten Systemen aus den USA. Warum ist das wichtig?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, ich m\u00f6chte ganz kurz einschieben und ich glaub, das ist f\u00fcr das Verst\u00e4ndnis relativ wichtig, die Unterscheidung zwischen den Anwendungen zu machen, die entwickelt werden und den Sprachmodellen. Und ich also am am einfachsten l\u00e4sst sich das wahrscheinlich auch wieder an ChatGPT nachvollziehen. Es gibt zum einen die Softwareanwendung ChatGPT. Das ist die, wenn Nutzende auf die Website klicken, kriegen sie dieses Feld, also eine einfache Website pr\u00e4sentiert, wo sie Text eingeben k\u00f6nnen. Das ist eine reine Softwareanwendung, ne.\n\nEs gibt 'n Frontend und 'n Backend, die miteinander kommunizieren. Und das hat erst mal noch nichts mit dem Element der Sprachmodelle zu tun. Die Sprachmodelle bei ChatGPT sind die GPT Modelle, die vielleicht werden das einige von Ihnen, die den Podcast h\u00f6ren, ja auch wissen, vor innerhalb des Frontends ausgew\u00e4hlt werden k\u00f6nnen. Dann k\u00f6nnen Sie zwischen GPT mini w\u00e4hlen, GPT v o und so weiter. Das sind die Sprachmodelle.\n\nUnd diese Sprachmodelle sind, wenn's darum geht, diese Sprachmodelle zu entwickeln, da da stecken die riesigen Kosten dahinter. Da steckt dieses das Training dahinter. Und diese gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle werden bisher nur von einigen relativ wenigen Akteuren bereitgestellt, vorrangig amerikanischen Unternehmen. Aber es gibt inzwischen auch europ\u00e4ische und Alternativen beziehungsweise auch in in China gibt's einige einige Angebote. Und was die Bundesverwaltung bisher ausschlie\u00dflich tut, ist, Anwendungen zu entwickeln.\n\nAlso keine Sprachmodelle selbst zu entwickeln, sondern die Anwendungen, die dann diese Sprachmodelle verwenden. Und wir haben uns die Projekte in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, die eben mithilfe von den Sprachmodellen auf Basis dieser Sprachmodelle Anwendung entwickeln, dann eben diese Vorteile f\u00fcr die Bundesverwaltung zu schaffen, von denen wir am Anfang geredet haben, eben chatten, Textzusammenfassung, Recherche und so weiter.\n\nSpeaker 0: Denn da stellt sich daher die Frage, grade wenn ich denn auf sozusagen Hintergrundsysteme zur\u00fcckgreife aus den USA, warum ist das wichtig, die Anwendung dann hier selbst zu entwickeln?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, weil es darauf ankommt, wie auf diese Sprachmodelle zugegriffen wird. Es gibt beispielsweise OpenAI, die Sprachmodelle werden \u00fcber verschiedene Cloud Funktionen bereitgestellt. Eine der bekanntesten ist sicherlich die Azure Cloud. Und diese Sprachmodelle sind weder Open Source. Dadurch, dass sie nicht Open Source sind, k\u00f6nnen sie beispielsweise nicht auf eigene Hardware gehostet werden.\n\nUnd es gibt Angebote, sowohl amerikanischer als auch europ\u00e4ischer Art, wo die Modelle eben mindestens die Modellparameter Open Source gestellt sind, sodass die Bundesverwaltung, wenn sie denn m\u00f6chte, diese Modelle nehmen kann und auf ihre eigenen Hardware laufen lassen kann. Und das ist mindestens aus der Perspektive digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ja durchaus notwendig auch, wenn beispielsweise Daten verarbeitet werden sollen, die 'n gewissen Sicherheitssicherheitsstandard erf\u00fcllen m\u00fcssen, weil dann eben keine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika beispielsweise stattfindet.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das hei\u00dft, wenn jetzt beispielsweise B\u00fcrger*innenanfragen kommen, die irgendwo auf 'nem Server zwischengespeichert werden m\u00fcssen, der in den USA steht, hat man nicht so richtig die Kontrolle, was passiert mit diesen Anfragen, was passiert mit den Daten, die dahinter liegen, wenn ich's auf meine eigene Hardware speicher, also auf meinem eigenen Server beispielsweise, der in der Bundesverwaltung steht, da bin ich einfach unabh\u00e4ngiger und sicherer, hab ich so richtig verstanden?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und Nicole korrigier mich gerne, aber da gibt's ja auch klare Regularien, was erlaubt und was verboten ist. Also eine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich. Und da ist wirklich auch, nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und da ist wirklich auch 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein innerhalb der Projekte vorhanden. Also von allen Projekten, diesen 33, die Du ja schon erw\u00e4hnt hast, gibt es kein einziges, was angegeben hat, dass die Server au\u00dferhalb der EU stehen w\u00fcrden. Also grade in dem Bezug gibt es 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t. Wir haben uns das ja auf verschiedenen oder aus verschiedenen Perspektiven angeguckt oder wie wir's definiert haben. Da geht's bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t einerseits die Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit.\n\nAlso verstehe ich \u00fcberhaupt die Anwendung? Habe ich genug Kompetenzen, das auch beurteilen zu k\u00f6nnen, auch umsetzen zu k\u00f6nnen? Dann die Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, also hab ich \u00fcberhaupt verschiedene Alternativen oder gibt es eigentlich nur einen Anbieter, auf den ich zur\u00fcckgreifen kann? Dann geborene ich mich nat\u00fcrlich sehr schnell in eine Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, die nat\u00fcrlich sehr unterschiedliche negative Konsequenzen haben kann. Also zum einen beispielsweise sehr hohe Lizenzgeb\u00fchren, aber andererseits kann es nat\u00fcrlich auch als geopolitisches Druckmittel gegebenenfalls genutzt werden, wie wir das ja in letzter Zeit immer h\u00e4ufiger gesehen haben.\n\nUnd grade deshalb ist das Thema digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, Doria hat's schon gesagt, ist eigentlich spielt schon l\u00e4nger eine Rolle, aber ist jetzt noch mal ganz besonders ins Bewusstsein getreten. Und der 3. Punkt ist der Einfluss auf Anbieter. Also habe ich genug Marktmacht beispielsweise, in Vertragsverhandlungen gewisse Dinge durchzusetzen, gerade auch in Bezug auf Informationssicherheit und Datenschutz und kann ich auch steuern, beispielsweise wie die Anwendung weiterentwickelt werden? Wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich sehr hohe eigene Kompetenzen habe und die Anwendung beispielsweise selbst entwickel und das bei mir auch selbst hoste, dann ist dieser Einfluss auf Anbieter nat\u00fcrlich nicht so relevant, wie wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich da auf Fremdleistungen setze insgesamt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und diese 3 Ziele, die Nicole gerade erw\u00e4hnt hat, die haben wir uns nicht ausgedacht, sondern die stammt tats\u00e4chlich vom IT Planungsrat aus einem Strategiepapier von 20 21. Und diese Ziele, um's noch mal zu wiederholen, das sind Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit und Einfluss auf Anbieter. Und das diese 3 Ziele ziehen sich auch durch unser unsere gesamte Studie. Und wir haben dann auf dieser Basis uns gefragt, wir haben diese Ziele? Wie k\u00f6nnen wir sie erreichen?\n\nUnd sind dann von da gestartet.\n\nSpeaker 0: Blicken wir noch mal etwas genauer auf die Studie selbst. Wie seid ihr vorgegangen? Wie habt ihr auch methodisch gearbeitet, Dloven? Wir\n\nSpeaker 2: haben diese die Studie dieses Jahr gestartet Anfang diesen Jahres und das ist letztendlich 1 1 1 1 recht gro\u00dfes Projekt geworden. Zentral in dieser Studie war, dass wir eine empirische Analyse durchgef\u00fchrt haben. Du hattest gesagt. Wir haben insgesamt 33 Projekte betrachtet. Eigentlich waren's urspr\u00fcnglich viel mehr.\n\nEs waren 180 Projekte, die wir vom Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten. Das ist eine Plattform, die das Innenministerium letztes Jahr bereitgestellt hat, wo alle KI Projekte der Bundesverwaltung gelistet werden. Von der sind wir ausgegangen und haben diese Projekte gefiltert nach Projekten, wo eben gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle verwendet werden. Und sind dann auf diese Projekte, das waren dann 80, wo die wir identifiziert sind zugegangen und haben eben Daten erhoben. Und zwar Daten zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t nach unserem Verst\u00e4ndnis.\n\nUnd f\u00fcr unser Verst\u00e4ndnis ausgehend von den 3 Zielen zu pr\u00e4zisieren, haben wir 'n Indikator Katalog entwickelt. Und diese Indikatoren waren folgenderma\u00dfen, dass wir jeder Indikator hat quasi einen Wert, den er annehmen kann von 0 bis 4, wobei 4 der Maximalwert, also der die Wunschauspr\u00e4gung ist und 0 quasi keine Auspr\u00e4gung, also die negativste. Und diese Indikatoren haben wir in einen Erhebungsbogen umformuliert und dann sind dann die Projekte herangetreten mit dem Wunsch, die auszuf\u00fcllen. Und mit den Resultaten, mit den Ergebnissen sind wir dann, die haben wir dann verarbeitet und in dieser Studie aufbereitet. Das ist der Kern der Studie.\n\nWir sind aber noch dar\u00fcber hinausgegangen und haben eine Marktbetrachtung durchgef\u00fchrt. Wir haben uns die aktuellen Strategien sowohl im Inland als auch im Ausland zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t mit immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle. Mit Bezug immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle angeschaut. Und sind dann zum Schluss haben alles zusammengef\u00fchrt zu einigen weiterf\u00fchrenden Handlungsempfehlungen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, eine Beobachtung, die haben wir grad schon ein wenig auseinandergenommen, n\u00e4mlich die Bundesverwaltung entwickelt Anwendungen selbst auch auf eigener Hardware, auf eigenen Server. Und da habt ihr auch gesagt, das findet ihr eigentlich so ganz gut und das kann man auch so unterst\u00fctzen. 'N anderes Thema, das ihr beobachtet habt, das ist grad schon gefallen, der Begriff Open Source. Auch Open Source Systeme stammen h\u00e4ufig aus den USA oder aus Asien und ihr sagt aber, na ja, wir w\u00fcrden pl\u00e4dieren f\u00fcr L\u00f6sungen, die auf europ\u00e4ische Normen und Werte, Zitat, ausgerichtet sind. Was steckt hinter der Idee?\n\nSpeaker 2: Da m\u00fcssen wir vielleicht ganz kleines bisschen ausholen und diesen Open Source Begriff im Kontext von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen noch mal definieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, gerne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Und zwar in bei herk\u00f6mmlicher Software ist Open Source relativ klar. Also Code, eine Software besteht aus Code. Und wenn diese dieser Code offengelegt ist, dann k\u00f6nnen wir von Open Source reden. Bei der Entwicklung und Bereitstellung von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen ist das nicht ganz so leicht.\n\nWir haben zum einen, und das ist das Zentrale, wenn ich 'n Sprachmodell offenstelle, dann stell ich eigentlich die Parameter und die Struktur der des Sprachmodells auf. Und diese Parameter, das sind letztendlich einfach nur Zahlen in in Matrixform. Und diese Zahlen kann ich mir hernehmen und in in mein Modell stecken und dann kann ich das betreiben. Aber ein gro\u00dfes zentrales Ziel von Open Source ist Nachvollziehbarkeit. Und Nachvollziehbarkeit ist allein dadurch bei Sprachmodellen nicht gegeben.\n\nIch brauch eben viel mehr Information diese Parameter herum und zwar vor allem, was den Trainingsprozess angeht. Das hei\u00dft, es m\u00fcssen muss offengelegt werden, welche Daten verwendet wurden. Also Sprachmodelle werden ja immer auf einem gro\u00dfen Datensatz trainiert. Und dieser Datensatz ist eigentlich zentral daf\u00fcr, nachvollziehen zu k\u00f6nnen, wie das Sprachmodell funktioniert. Genau.\n\nUnd und dieses Verst\u00e4ndnis von Open Source hat sich in den letzten Jahren nun mal ver\u00e4ndert. Und grade die nicht europ\u00e4ischen Anbieter verstehen unter Open Source eben einen recht recht begrenzten Blick eben. Sie sie \u00f6ffnen lediglich die Modellparameter und sagen dann, sie haben 'n Open Source Modell. Und wir, 'n europ\u00e4isches Verst\u00e4ndnis ist 'n bisschen weiterf\u00fchren, ne. Wir warten halt oder mit, etwas vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source haben eben das, was ich grade erkl\u00e4rt hatte, die Informationen das ganze das Sprachmodell herum ebenfalls.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das w\u00fcnscht ihr euch eben auch, was jetzt die Entwicklung angeht, die Sprachmodelle herum, dass die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch aus dem Sinne der Transparenz, der Autonomie selbst solche europ\u00e4ischen L\u00f6sungen entwickelt?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ob sie die selber entwickeln muss, so weit w\u00fcrden wir nicht gehen. Also auf Sprachmodellebene, wir haben durchaus Also wir haben eine Empfehlung drin, wo wir sagen, es sollte evaluiert werden, ob es sinnvoll w\u00e4re, ein eigenes Sprachmodell zu entwickeln. Aber wir sehen auch die Risiken dabei. Und die Risiken sind vor allem die enorm hohen Kosten bei gleichzeitig hoher dynamischer Marktentwicklung. Also wenn wenn wir uns die Modelle an von OpenAI noch mal anschauen und da die Modelle, die vor 2 Jahren rauskommen, sind heute komplett veraltet und niemand w\u00fcrde sie mehr nutzen, eben weil der weil die Entwicklung so rasant fortschreitet.\n\nWir haben jetzt in der in der Schweiz ist ein Sprachmodell entwickelt worden nach diesen Standards, die ich eben beschrieben hatte. Das ist jetzt im September rausgekommen. Das ist vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source. Und bevor Deutschland jetzt sagt, wir brauchen so was auch, sollte zuerst mal evaluiert werden von den Modellen, die's denn jetzt bereits in Europa gibt, sind vielleicht einige davon besser nutzbar und sollten wir vielleicht auf uns auf die Folge fokussieren.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, die Krux w\u00e4re ja dabei. Also wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich sage, es wir machen einen einen europ\u00e4ischen Effort daraus und versuchen jetzt auch, ein Sprachmodell zu entwickeln, was tats\u00e4chlich mit den mit den gro\u00dfen etablierten Anbietern, einige haben wir jetzt genannt, mithalten kann. Dann m\u00fcsste es tats\u00e4chlich mithalten k\u00f6nnen, was die Leistung angeht und sollte dar\u00fcber hinaus dann eben noch weitere Kriterien erf\u00fcllen? Also beispielsweise einem strengeren Datenschutz- und Pers\u00f6nlichkeitsrechte, Urheberrechtsverst\u00e4ndnisfolgen, wie es hier in Europa vielleicht schon ein bisschen anders ist als in anderen L\u00e4ndern, die f\u00fchrend in der Entwicklung sind, die den USA oder China beispielsweise und genau, solche solche Werte eben auch pr\u00e4sentieren. Und dann ist schon die Frage, ist das realistisch als Ziel sicherlich w\u00fcnschenswert, aber man muss da einfach gut abw\u00e4gen, weil es nat\u00fcrlich auch ja enorme Ressourcen braucht, so etwas erst einmal zu entwickeln.\n\nAber 'n bisschen niedrigschwelliger ansetzen kann man auf jeden Fall, also wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch in so hohem Ma\u00dfe, wie wir's ja festgestellt haben, auch auf Open Source setzt, selbst setzt, dann w\u00e4re es ja vielleicht w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn sich die Verwaltung auch st\u00e4rker engagiert. Also beispielsweise in Open Source Allianzen und Konsortien und auch an Open Source ja Open Source st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt, nicht nur finanziell, sondern tats\u00e4chlich auch daran mitarbeitet, organisatorisch, gegebenenfalls auch technisch, sich st\u00e4rker mit dieser Community vernetzt, ein Teil davon wird. Und dadurch nat\u00fcrlich, wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch direkt an solchen Entwicklungen partizipiert und mitarbeitet, dann nat\u00fcrlich auch ihre eigenen Bedarfe sehr viel einfacher und schneller einbringen kann und dadurch die Entwicklung nat\u00fcrlich auch 'n bisschen steuern kann, dass das dann auch tats\u00e4chlich f\u00fcr die Verwaltung selbst am Ende wieder sehr gut nutzbar ist. Weil das fehlt teilweise noch ein bisschen. Also dass tats\u00e4chlich, dass es tats\u00e4chlich relativ wenig gibt, was explizit jetzt auf die Verwaltung zugeschnitten ist, was vielleicht ja auch ein Grund daf\u00fcr ist, dass vieles einfach aktuell, was in der Bundesverwaltung auf jeden Fall passiert, dann auch Eigenentwicklungen sind.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nicole, das bringen wir gleich zum n\u00e4chsten Punkt, was wir diskutieren. Wir reden jetzt ja immer von der Verwaltung, aber nat\u00fcrlich gibt's ja sowohl in Deutschland als auch auf europ\u00e4ischer Ebene zig verschiedene Beh\u00f6rden. Wenn die jetzt anfangen, alle ihre eigene Softwarel\u00f6sung zu stricken, dann ist das nat\u00fcrlich teuer und auch sehr umst\u00e4ndlich. Wie kann man denn ein einheitliches und auch beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifendes System etablieren? Also wie kann man da mehr in sonen Art Zusammenarbeiten kommen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Da gibt's\n\nSpeaker 1: verschiedene M\u00f6glichkeiten. Also wir haben schon festgestellt, dass sich die Mehrheit der Projekte, die wir jetzt befragt haben, auch austauschen mit mit externen mit anderen KI Projekten und das ist nat\u00fcrlich eine M\u00f6glichkeit, wenn man wei\u00df, was in anderen Beh\u00f6rden schon entwickelt wird, dann vielleicht zu sagen, na gut, dann brauchen wir da vielleicht jetzt nicht noch mal was Eigenes zu entwickeln. Wir k\u00f6nnen das ja erst mal 'n bisschen begleiten, vielleicht machen wir's auch zusammen und k\u00f6nnen es dann hinterher nachnutzen. Da kommen wir dann gleich schon zu zu 1 Krux, weil Open Source wird genutzt, aber was man selbst entwickelt hat, dann auch wieder als Open Source oder zur Nachnutzung bereitzustellen, da hapert es noch ein bisschen. Also das war 1 der Schwachpunkte, der sich noch herausgestellt hat in der Studie.\n\nWas gegebenenfalls auch vielfach daran liegt, dass in den Teams, die daf\u00fcr zust\u00e4ndig sind, die entsprechenden rechtlichen Kompetenzen nicht so stark vorhanden sind, wie beispielsweise fachliche oder technische Kompetenzen zur Entwicklung der entsprechenden Anwendungen. Also da k\u00f6nnte man definitiv noch was verbessern, dass ich dann sage, okay, wenn hier schon was entwickelt wird, dann k\u00f6nnen es andere sollten das andere auch leichter nachnutzen k\u00f6nnen und dann sollte ich auch versuchen, es vielleicht als Open Source sogar zur Verf\u00fcgung zu stellen, da den Kreis der Nachnutzenden noch gr\u00f6\u00dfer zu halten. Genau, das w\u00e4re das eine und sehr stark vereinfachen w\u00fcrde es das nat\u00fcrlich auch, wenn man eine gemeinsame Infrastruktur h\u00e4tte. Also das war auch ein Wunsch, der vielfach ge\u00e4u\u00dfert wurde. Daran wird in Teilen auch schon ein bisschen gearbeitet, recht von Keepads.\n\nDorian, vielleicht kannst Du dazu gleich noch 'n bisschen was sagen, aber das, weil auch da macht jeder noch son bisschen sein eigenes S\u00fcppchen und ja, dadurch hat man nat\u00fcrlich, wenn man dann nur f\u00fcr sich selbst beschafft, eine geringere Markt macht. Wir haben Insell\u00f6sungen, wir haben ganz verschiedene Dinge, die da die da beschafft werden und es w\u00e4re schon einfacher, wenn man sagt, wir haben da eine gemeinsame KI Infrastruktur, entsprechende GPU Kapazit\u00e4ten, die wir alle nutzen k\u00f6nnen. Dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir das insgesamt vielleicht auch besser ausnutzen, dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir besser zusammenarbeiten, Dinge, die entwickelt sind, auch teilen und haben vielleicht auch gegen\u00fcber den Anbietern noch mal eine st\u00e4rkere Marktmacht, wenn wir uns da einfach als Nachfrageseite zusammentun auf Seiten der Verwaltung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also sone gemeinsame Infrastruktur auf deutscher, vielleicht sogar europ\u00e4ischer Ebene, Dorianne. Wie kann das aussehen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ah, ich m\u00f6chte gern noch 2 Punkte zu dem erg\u00e4nzen, was Nicole gesagt hat. Ich denke, genau dieser Infrastrukturgedanke ist bei KI entscheidend, und zwar diese Trennung zu machen, die wir am Anfang aufgemacht haben zwischen Sprachmodell und Anwendung. Wenn die Sprachmodelle zentral auf spezialisierter KI Hardware bereitgestellt werden k\u00f6nnten, idealerweise noch an unterschiedlichen Schutzbedarfen, dann k\u00f6nnten unterschiedliche Beh\u00f6rden auf diese zentral bereitgestellten K-Ressourcen zugreifen und k\u00f6nnten eventuell, falls sinnvoll, ihre eigenen Anwendungen darauf entwickeln. Dann h\u00e4tten wir auch diese Trennung zwischen Kompetenzen, weil Kompetenzen in der Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich inzwischen in fast jeder Beh\u00f6rde vorhanden. Und eine spezialisierte Anwendung f\u00fcr den spezialisierten Anwendungsfall in 1 Beh\u00f6rde zu entwickeln, das sollte kein Problem sein.\n\nWenn die KI Kompetenz von anderer Seite kommt, Daran hapert das ja h\u00e4ufiger. Und diese KI Kompetenz k\u00f6nnte dann eben an dieser zentralen Stelle aufgebaut werden, wo dann die KI Ressourcen bereitgestellt sind. Und die nachnutzenden Beh\u00f6rden w\u00fcrden einfach auf diese Ressourcen zugreifen und w\u00fcrden mittels dieser dann ihre Anwendung entwickeln. Und wir haben uns Projekte angeschaut, die so was in die Richtung tats\u00e4chlich auch tun. Also wir haben in eine von den 33 Projekten auf Bundesverwaltung haben wir eine grunds\u00e4tzliche Unterscheidung gemacht in jene, welche Beh\u00f6rden spezifisch f\u00fcr sich selbst etwas entwickeln und welche, die den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Fokus anstreben.\n\nUnd vor allem dieser Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifende Aspekt war f\u00fcr uns sehr interessant. Und ein Projekt, Nicole hat es grade genannt, ist KeePids. KeePids ist vom ITZ Bund aufgebaut und verfolgt eben diesen Ansatz, dass im ITZ Bund ja viel technische und KI Kompetenz vorhanden ist. Und die Idee bei KeepIDS ist, dass Beh\u00f6rden auf des ITZ Bund zukommen k\u00f6nnen und mit der Bitte oder der die vielleicht den Bedarf haben, eine Karrierenanwendung zu entwickeln. Und das ITZ Bund hostet also hostet dann auf Ihren Ressourcen sicher und halt sicher die Modelle und k\u00f6nnen gegebenenfalls auch bei der Anwendungsentwicklung unterst\u00fctzen.\n\nGenau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also zumindest eine zentrale Beh\u00f6rde, die Ansprechpartner ist und auch entwickeln kann.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Schauen wir uns noch 'n weiteren Punkt an, den ihr beschrieben habt. Diese M-Systeme, die sollten die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit der Verwaltung nicht einschr\u00e4nken, wenn sie ausfallen. Finde ich auch sehr plausibel und sehr nachvollziehbar. Erst haben wir schon gesagt, eingangs, na ja, diese Systeme sollen ja nicht Mitarbeitende ersetzen, sie sollen sie unterst\u00fctzen. Dennoch, wenn ich solche Systeme in der Hand hab, dann bin ich ja sehr viel produktiver.\n\nUnd wenn die ausfallen, kann's ja dennoch, ne, einfach schwerwiegende Folgen haben, ist das einfach riskant, ne, dass man einem sagt, wir haben immer weniger Mitarbeitende, die immer effektiver arbeiten mit solchen Systemen und wenn sie ausfallen, haben wir halt 'n Problem?\n\nSpeaker 2: Zuk\u00fcnftig kann das Risiko steigen. Und je h\u00f6her das Risiko, desto wichtiger ist es, sicherzustellen, dass wir diese Systeme nicht ausfallen, dass wir nicht in irgendwelchen Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten uns bewegen, wo externe Akteure dann sagen k\u00f6nnen, wir wollen der deutschland \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung schaden. Wir stellen diese Systeme jetzt ab und unsere gesamte Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit ist dadurch bedroht. Das sollte nicht passieren. Und das ist eigentlich auch 1 der zentralen Gedanken bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, diese Schmerzpunkte nicht entstehen zu lassen.\n\nWir haben ja nur den aktuell den den den Stand den aktuellen Stand betrachtet und kommen eben zu dem Schluss, dass das derzeit nicht der Fall ist, dass selbst wenn diese Systeme, was nicht passieren wird, alle ausfallen sollten, w\u00fcrde die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung mindestens derzeit noch handlungsf\u00e4hig bleiben. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und Nicole, ich dachte jetzt auch auf der anderen Seite, die Verwaltung ist ja im Fall 1 Grippewelle oder wir erinnern uns an Corona in eine Pandemie auch eingeschr\u00e4nkt, ne. Insofern, solche Gefahren gibt's wahrscheinlich immer oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Solche Gefahren k\u00f6nnen genau nat\u00fcrlich durch durch verschiedene Dinge bedingt sein. Allerdings, wir haben es ja jetzt gesehen beispielsweise mit der AWS Cloud und entsprechenden Ausf\u00e4llen, je nachdem, ob man dann eben genau vielleicht eine Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit hat, ein 1 redundant ausgelegtes System oder nicht, kann man davon nat\u00fcrlich st\u00e4rker oder weniger stark betroffen sein. Dorian hat schon gesagt, aktuell ist das Risiko eher gering. Das liegt daran, dass die meisten Anwendungen sich eher auf, also eher noch nicht die komplette Verwaltung betreffen, sondern f\u00fcr spezifische Fachreferate oder f\u00fcr einzelne Ministerien konzipiert sind und auch f\u00fcr relativ spezialisierte Aufgaben gedacht sind. Also beispielsweise 'n Rechercheassistent eben.\n\nMhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und wenn\n\nSpeaker 1: er dann ausf\u00e4llt, dann ist das 'n bisschen nervig und ich brauche ein bisschen l\u00e4nger, aber also man kann jetzt nicht davon sprechen, dass die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit bedroht ist. Aber wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich Systeme habe, die f\u00fcr vielf\u00e4ltige Aufgaben genutzt werden und die vielleicht auch auf die komplette Verwaltung skaliert werden, dann werden solche Probleme nat\u00fcrlich virulenter und dann muss ich nat\u00fcrlich noch st\u00e4rker Sicherungsma\u00dfnahmen treffen und da gibt's ja verschiedene, die wir untersuchen oder die wir auch vorschlagen. Also es gibt zum Beispiel auch doch einige Projekte, bei denen ich zum Beispiel zwischen verschiedenen Sprachmodellen auch unterschiedlicher Anbieter w\u00e4hlen und wechseln kann. Und wenn dann nat\u00fcrlich ein Sprachmodell beispielsweise nicht mehr verf\u00fcgbar w\u00e4re, w\u00e4r's ja nicht tragisch, weil ich ja immer noch weitere zur Auswahl h\u00e4tte und trotzdem ja die Anwendung weiter nutzen kann und die Aufgaben weiter erf\u00fcllen kann. Und da gibt's nat\u00fcrlich noch andere Ma\u00dfnahmen, die man dann entsprechend ergreifen kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Es gibt noch 'n paar so abschlie\u00dfend weitere Herausforderungen, die ihr seht, rechtliche Unsicherheiten beim Einsatz von KI Modellen, die KI Kompetenz in einigen Teams, die habt ihr schon angesprochen, aber auch organisatorische H\u00fcrden, die Entwicklungsprozesse erschweren k\u00f6nnen. Wo dr\u00fcckt der Schuh am meisten?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also wir haben neben der quantitativen Datenerhebung Ende auch noch Interviews gef\u00fchrt mit den Projektverantwortlichen der Projekte, die wir als als relevant erachtet haben. Und eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig bem\u00e4ngelt wurde die schwierig rechtlichen Unsicherheiten, die aktuell vorherrschen. Das ist die, also das ist vor allem das Zusammenspiel aus der KI Verordnung der der EU, aber auch in der DSGVO, welche rechtlichen Regeln wann wie greifen, wie das auch mit Open Source zusammenspielt. Das war ein Punkt, Nicole hatte das ja vorhin auch erw\u00e4hnt, dass viele zwar auf Open Source zugreifen, ihre eigenen entwickelten Anwendungen werden aber nicht Open Source stellen. Das ist teilweise eben aus aus Unsicherheiten heraus so, hat sich so entwickelt.\n\nUnd dann der andere Punkt ist, dass die die Kompetenzen innerhalb der Entwicklungsteams eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig jetzt relativ hoch angesehen werden, der die das Risiko eher bei deren auf auf Ebene der Nutzenden angesehen wird. Also da wird stark da daf\u00fcr pl\u00e4diert, deutlich mehr in den Kompetenzaufbau zu investieren, weil das Risiko letztendlich ja bei Also eine Anwendung kann nur so gut sein wie der Nutzende am Ende, der diese Anwendung dann verwendet. Und wir sehen jetzt schon auch aus anderen Studien, dass teilweise selbst wenn theoretisch Eigenentwicklungen bereitst\u00fcnden, die Verwaltungsmitarbeiten zu teilen, trotzdem eher auf ChatGPT zugreifen. Kann man jetzt sehen, wie man m\u00f6chte, aber da liegen auf jeden Fall Risiken, die die nicht ja, die die betrachtet werden m\u00fcssen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, was wir noch hatten. Also zum einen war es ja dieses, es w\u00e4re w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn es irgendwie eine gemeinsame KI Cloud Infrastruktur g\u00e4be, die man nutzen k\u00f6nnte. Und was also wir haben uns ja auch die Daten angeguckt, die genutzt werden. Da gab es, glaube ich, kein einziges Projekt, was auf propriet\u00e4re Daten zur\u00fcckgegriffen hat. Das hei\u00dft, die Daten, die genutzt wurden, die waren entweder \u00f6ffentlich oder eben eigene Daten der jeweiligen Beh\u00f6rde.\n\nAber grade da hat haben tats\u00e4chlich auch Probleme geschlummert, dass diese Daten in so heterogenen Formaten nicht standardisiert vorliegen und deshalb halt auch zum Teil nicht auf jeden Fall nicht optimal nutzbar sind f\u00fcr die jeweiligen Anwendungen. Also das ist tats\u00e4chlich aktuell auch noch ein Hemmschuh, was solche Systeme in der Verwaltung betrifft. Einfach ja, es sind viele Daten da, aber teilweise sind sie halt so heterogen oder oder unstrukturiert und unstandardisiert, dass sie sich nicht bestm\u00f6glich nutzen lassen. Und da wird ja auch schon einiges getan, deswegen ist es zu vermuten, dass sich die Datenqualit\u00e4t in der Zukunft erh\u00f6hen wird, aber alle Daten, die schon vorliegen, auch noch mal deren Qualit\u00e4t zu verbessern, ist nat\u00fcrlich ein riesiges Unterfangen, deswegen wird das wahrscheinlich eher nicht angegangen werden Und damit bleibt dieses Problem dann in Teilen auch bestehen.\n\nSpeaker 0: So unterm Strich, wenn ihr jetzt an diese auf diese Studie blickt, was nehmt ihr f\u00fcr euch mit? Also was hat euch vielleicht \u00fcberrascht und was wird euch auch weiter besch\u00e4ftigen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Die gr\u00f6\u00dfte Erkenntnis f\u00fcr mich ist gewesen, und zwar die ist positiv, dass fast durchg\u00e4ngig eigentlich Kriterien digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zumindest in Teilen schon beachtet werden, dass viel auf Open Source gesetzt wird, unabh\u00e4ngig jetzt, ob amerikanisch oder europ\u00e4isch, aber Open Source wird eingesetzt. Und insbesondere bei den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Projekten, die also entsprechend auch 'n h\u00f6heren Einfluss auf die auf m\u00f6gliche Risiken zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t haben k\u00f6nnten, eben weil mehr Menschen dieses System am Ende nutzen werden, werden wird wird digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zentral betrachtet und beachtet in den Projekten. Das ist eigentlich und das ist 'n positives Fazit, was wir hier ziehen und was wir gerne auch unterstreichen w\u00fcrden und dann eben auch mit den Handlungsempfehlungen in die Richtung denken, dass das eben bewahrt bleibt und in Zukunft noch st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt werden werden kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nicole, was nimmst Du mit?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das h\u00e4tte ich auch so gesagt. Also das dass tats\u00e4chlich innerhalb der Projekte ein 1 sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr diese Problematik besteht, auch schon diverse Ma\u00dfnahmen ergriffen werden, zu verhindern, dass man in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten \u00fcberhaupt einmal geraten kann. Ich find's auch positiv, dass es schon ja, dass es schon viele Projekte gibt, die sich auch untereinander austauschen. Auch da ist der Wunsch, da das eigentlich noch zu intensivieren. Das scheitert dann teilweise tats\u00e4chlich eher an, ja, an geringer Zeit f\u00fcr solchen Austausch und dass ja auch schon versucht wird, das noch weiter zu verst\u00e4rken, also die Zusammenarbeit noch st\u00e4rker zu erm\u00f6glichen, Nachnutzung zu erm\u00f6glichen, Austausch, dass da eben nicht Parallelentwicklungen stattfinden, beispielsweise \u00fcber den Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten, dass auch tats\u00e4chlich zentral ja Beratungs- und Kompetenzstellen geschaffen werden, zum Beispiel das BEKI, die dann auch \u00fcber entsprechende Kompetenzen verf\u00fcgen und beraten k\u00f6nnen in der kompletten Bundesverwaltung.\n\nAlso da ist 'n hohes Bewusstsein und da wird einfach auch schon schon einiges getan und auch das Fazit, dass wir sagen k\u00f6nnen, aktuell sehen wir eigentlich da noch keinen Bereich im im roten Bereich, wo wir sagen, da ist jetzt aber eine 1 sehr starke Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, was bei ja den Es gibt ja schon andere Studien, die sich mit digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t in der Bundesverwaltung besch\u00e4ftigen, beispielsweise im Kontext Datenbanken oder B\u00fcrosoftware. Da war das Fazit gr\u00f6\u00dftenteils sehr anders. Da war aber eigentlich bestanden die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten auch immer schon sehr lange und es ging in den Studien wahrscheinlich eher darum zu schauen, wie kann man das vielleicht abmildern oder irgendwie da rauskommen? Aber jetzt im Bereich der gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle ist diese Betrachtung einfach schon sehr fr\u00fchzeitig angesto\u00dfen worden, bevor solche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten sich tats\u00e4chlich schon tats\u00e4chlich schon entstehen oder sich verfestigen konnten. Und auch da w\u00fcrde ich sagen, das ist sehr, sehr positiv, dass einfach mit dieser Betrachtung m\u00f6glicher Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten im Kontext KI und grade gro\u00dfer Sprachmodelle jetzt schon so fr\u00fchzeitig in der Entwicklung begonnen wurde und es ist nat\u00fcrlich auch eine Empfehlung, das das fortzuf\u00fchren und jetzt nicht zu sagen, okay, die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten, die sind jetzt noch nicht da oder auf jeden Fall nicht gro\u00df, sondern es ist halt 'n sehr hochdynamisches Feld.\n\nMan muss nat\u00fcrlich auch weiter betrachten, wie sich das entwickelt, auch mit mit neuen Entwicklungen, die dazu beobachten, sind KI Agentensysteme und weitere, die wir in der Studie auch schon ansprechen. Und nat\u00fcrlich kann es auch Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten geben in Bezug auf andere Ebenen, die aber mit gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen zusammenh\u00e4ngen, beispielsweise Hardware oder Cloud. Das war jetzt au\u00dferhalb des Scopes dieser Studie, aber auch da ist es nat\u00fcrlich m\u00f6glich, dass sich die Bundesverwaltung in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten begeben k\u00f6nnte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und wie sie das eben nicht machen kann und wie souver\u00e4ne Chatbots auch eine souver\u00e4ne Verwaltung st\u00fctzen, dar\u00fcber haben wir heute gesprochen in. Digital, dem Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums \u00f6ffentlicher IT. Ganz herzlichen Dank an Nicole Opiala und Dorian Wachsmann. Sch\u00f6n, dass\n\nSpeaker 2: ihr hier wart. Dankesch\u00f6n.\n\nSpeaker 1: Danke dir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und vielen weiteren Apps und schreibt uns auch gern eine Bewertung, wenn ihr m\u00f6gt. Tsch\u00fcs und bis bald, ich bin Philipp 1.", "paragraphs": [{"sentences": [{"text": "Mal Hand aufs Herz, wer von euch nutzt regelm\u00e4\u00dfig KI Tools wie ChatGPT, sich die Arbeit son bisschen zu erleichtern?", "start": 0.08, "end": 6.58}, {"text": "Also ich beinah t\u00e4glich.", "start": 6.8799996, "end": 8.34}, {"text": "Als Rechercheassistenz sind Chatbots f\u00fcr mich gar nicht mehr wegzudenken.", "start": 8.639999, "end": 12.42}, {"text": "Damit bin ich auch in guter Gesellschaft.", "start": 13.035, "end": 14.815001}, {"text": "800000000 Menschen weltweit nutzen allein ChatGPT jede Woche.", "start": 14.875, "end": 19.215}], "start": 0.08, "end": 19.215, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Die Grundlage dieser Tools sind gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle, auch Large Language Model oder LLM genannt.", "start": 19.835, "end": 26.095001}, {"text": "Diese KI Modelle, mit denen man chatten und sich austauschen kann, sind nicht nur eine Alternative zum Google.", "start": 26.5, "end": 31.78}, {"text": "Sie unterst\u00fctzen auch Mitarbeitende in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung.", "start": 31.78, "end": 34.84}, {"text": "Gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle werten Dokumente aus, sortieren Anfragen von B\u00fcrger*innen und unterst\u00fctzen bei Analyseaufgaben.", "start": 35.46, "end": 41.72}, {"text": "Was genau LLMs k\u00f6nnen, welche Zukunft sie in der \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung haben und warum man mit ihnen schnell in gef\u00e4hrliche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten ger\u00e4t, das besprechen wir heute in diesem Podcast.", "start": 43.004997, "end": 53.184998}], "start": 19.835, "end": 53.184998, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Herzlich willkommen beim \u00f6FIT Podcast restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts f\u00fcr offene Kommunikationssysteme.", "start": 64.13, "end": 70.635}, {"text": "Ich bin Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts.", "start": 71.815, "end": 75.435005}, {"text": "Das ist zum einen Nicole Opiala.", "start": 75.495, "end": 77.035}, {"text": "Sie ist stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums \u00d6ffentliche IT und forscht zu soziotechnischen Trends an der Schnittstelle zwischen Gesellschaft, Verwaltung und Politik.", "start": 77.335, "end": 86.65}, {"text": "Nicole ist ja Stammgast bei uns und auch wieder heute online zugeschaltet aus Oldenburg.", "start": 87.35, "end": 91.67}], "start": 64.13, "end": 91.67, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Sch\u00f6n, dass Du da bist.", "start": 91.67, "end": 92.810005}], "start": 91.67, "end": 92.810005, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Hallo Philipp.", "start": 93.03, "end": 93.93}], "start": 93.03, "end": 93.93, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und hier vor Ort im Studio in Berlin, Dorian Wachsmann.", "start": 94.385, "end": 97.045006}, {"text": "Er ist wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter im Kompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentliche IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus.", "start": 97.265, "end": 102.725006}, {"text": "Seine Themenschwerpunkte sind nachhaltige Digitalisierung und k\u00fcnstliche Intelligenz.", "start": 103.025, "end": 107.525}, {"text": "Au\u00dferdem arbeitet er im Bereich der Web- und Softwareentwicklung.", "start": 108.04, "end": 110.53999}, {"text": "Sch\u00f6nen guten Tag.", "start": 110.84, "end": 111.74}], "start": 94.385, "end": 111.74, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Hallo Philipp, sch\u00f6n, dass ich da sein darf.", "start": 111.799995, "end": 113.5}], "start": 111.799995, "end": 113.5, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ja, steigen wir direkt mal ein.", "start": 114.119995, "end": 115.71999}, {"text": "Der Beamtenbund sch\u00e4tzt, dass in Deutschland rund 570000 Stellen fehlen im \u00f6ffentlichen Dienst.", "start": 115.71999, "end": 122.06}, {"text": "Nicole, k\u00f6nnen KI Tools diese L\u00fccke f\u00fcllen, diese enorme L\u00fccke an Fachkr\u00e4ften?", "start": 122.575005, "end": 127.235}], "start": 114.119995, "end": 127.235, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also es geht nicht so sehr darum, eine L\u00fccke zu f\u00fcllen und quasi Mitarbeitende zu ersetzen, sondern eher darum, die Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, ein bisschen zu, ja, ihnen die Arbeit ein bisschen zu erleichtern, sie zu unterst\u00fctzen, sie in ihrer Arbeit effizienter zu machen.", "start": 129.05501, "end": 146.64}, {"text": "Indem, Du hast ja schon paar Beispiele im Intro genannt, zum Beispiel Informationen schneller aufgefunden, schneller aufbereitet werden k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 146.78, "end": 155.36499}, {"text": "Es ist ja teilweise eine sehr textlastige Arbeit.", "start": 155.50499, "end": 158.22499}, {"text": "Da gibt's sehr umfangreiche Dokumente, die erstellt werden, die aber auch gesichtet werden m\u00fcssen, Vertr\u00e4ge, irgendwelche Vorlagen et cetera und da kann KI eben sehr gut unterst\u00fctzen und den Mitarbeitenden, die da sind, die Arbeit ein bisschen erleichtern.", "start": 158.22499, "end": 174.62}], "start": 129.05501, "end": 174.62, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "F\u00fcr eure Studie habt ihr euch gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, 33 Projekte insgesamt.", "start": 174.84, "end": 180.54}, {"text": "Warum eigentlich dieser Fokus auf digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t?", "start": 181.77501, "end": 184.355}, {"text": "Ihr hattet ja auch 'n anderen w\u00e4hlen k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 184.495, "end": 186.115}], "start": 174.84, "end": 186.115, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ja, also digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ist, denk ich, sp\u00e4testens seit diesem Jahr angekommen.", "start": 186.41501, "end": 191.615}, {"text": "Auf der gro\u00dfen politischen B\u00fchne wird viel diskutiert.", "start": 191.615, "end": 194.655}, {"text": "Tats\u00e4chlich ist das Konzept selbst ja auch schon \u00e4lter und wird in unterschiedlichen Kontexten unterschiedlich verwendet.", "start": 194.655, "end": 202.1}, {"text": "Wir haben jetzt aktuell, wenn \u00fcber digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t gesprochen wird, h\u00e4ufig den Open Source Gedanken prim\u00e4r im Kopf.", "start": 202.24, "end": 210.28499}, {"text": "Aber es geht halt dar\u00fcber hinaus, wir m\u00fcssen, wenn wir digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t betrachten wollen, die Kompetenzen in der Verwaltung st\u00e4rken.", "start": 210.28499, "end": 217.98499}], "start": 186.41501, "end": 217.98499, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wir m\u00fcssen Anbieter Unabh\u00e4ngigkeit sichern.", "start": 218.28499, "end": 221.265}, {"text": "Und wir von We Firmenkompetenzzentrum \u00f6ffentlicher IT haben digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t eigentlich \u00fcber 3 zentrale Eigenschaften definiert und das ist eigenst\u00e4ndig, selbstbestimmt und sicher.", "start": 221.325, "end": 233.78}, {"text": "Und hinter jedem dieser 3 Eigenschaften stehen verschiedene Anforderungen, die erf\u00fcllt sein m\u00fcssen.", "start": 234.265, "end": 238.905}, {"text": "Also wenn wir uns vorstellen, ich will mich selbstbestimmt in der digitalen Welt bewegen, dann bedeutet das halt, ich darf nicht abh\u00e4ngig von einem Unternehmen sein.", "start": 238.905, "end": 247.15999}, {"text": "Wenn ich mich eigenst\u00e4ndig bewegen m\u00f6chte, brauch ich die entsprechenden Kompetenzen dazu, das zu tun.", "start": 247.15999, "end": 251.64}], "start": 218.28499, "end": 251.64, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und eben, mich sicher zu bewegen, brauch ich ebenfalls die entsprechenden technischen Grundlagen, aber auch Kompetenzen.", "start": 251.64, "end": 257.97998}, {"text": "Und das haben wir als Grundlage genommen f\u00fcr unsere Studie.", "start": 258.44, "end": 261.66}, {"text": "Uns die Projekte, die aktuell in der Bundesverwaltung sich mit in k\u00fcnstlicher Intelligenz und genaue Sprachmodellen besch\u00e4ftigen, halt einmal vorzunehmen.", "start": 262.175, "end": 269.155}], "start": 251.64, "end": 269.155, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Bleiben wir noch mal direkt dabei und schauen uns mal 'n bisschen genauer an, was ihr da beobachtet habt.", "start": 269.455, "end": 274.115}, {"text": "Das eine ist, ihr habt gesehen, dass die Bundesverwaltung ihre technischen Systeme mit den gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen selbst entwickelt und eben dadurch nicht abh\u00e4ngig ist von etablierten Systemen aus den USA.", "start": 274.415, "end": 285.97998}, {"text": "Warum ist das wichtig?", "start": 285.97998, "end": 287.12}], "start": 269.455, "end": 287.12, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, ich m\u00f6chte ganz kurz einschieben und ich glaub, das ist f\u00fcr das Verst\u00e4ndnis relativ wichtig, die Unterscheidung zwischen den Anwendungen zu machen, die entwickelt werden und den Sprachmodellen.", "start": 287.18, "end": 296.835}, {"text": "Und ich also am am einfachsten l\u00e4sst sich das wahrscheinlich auch wieder an ChatGPT nachvollziehen.", "start": 297.455, "end": 302.91498}, {"text": "Es gibt zum einen die Softwareanwendung ChatGPT.", "start": 303.615, "end": 306.275}, {"text": "Das ist die, wenn Nutzende auf die Website klicken, kriegen sie dieses Feld, also eine einfache Website pr\u00e4sentiert, wo sie Text eingeben k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 306.94998, "end": 315.27}, {"text": "Das ist eine reine Softwareanwendung, ne.", "start": 315.27, "end": 317.03}], "start": 287.18, "end": 317.03, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Es gibt 'n Frontend und 'n Backend, die miteinander kommunizieren.", "start": 317.03, "end": 319.44998}, {"text": "Und das hat erst mal noch nichts mit dem Element der Sprachmodelle zu tun.", "start": 319.665, "end": 323.765}, {"text": "Die Sprachmodelle bei ChatGPT sind die GPT Modelle, die vielleicht werden das einige von Ihnen, die den Podcast h\u00f6ren, ja auch wissen, vor innerhalb des Frontends ausgew\u00e4hlt werden k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 323.825, "end": 334.25998}, {"text": "Dann k\u00f6nnen Sie zwischen GPT mini w\u00e4hlen, GPT v o und so weiter.", "start": 334.25998, "end": 337.53998}, {"text": "Das sind die Sprachmodelle.", "start": 337.53998, "end": 338.43997}], "start": 317.03, "end": 338.43997, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und diese Sprachmodelle sind, wenn's darum geht, diese Sprachmodelle zu entwickeln, da da stecken die riesigen Kosten dahinter.", "start": 338.9, "end": 346.375}, {"text": "Da steckt dieses das Training dahinter.", "start": 346.375, "end": 348.135}, {"text": "Und diese gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle werden bisher nur von einigen relativ wenigen Akteuren bereitgestellt, vorrangig amerikanischen Unternehmen.", "start": 348.135, "end": 357.495}, {"text": "Aber es gibt inzwischen auch europ\u00e4ische und Alternativen beziehungsweise auch in in China gibt's einige einige Angebote.", "start": 357.495, "end": 363.99002}, {"text": "Und was die Bundesverwaltung bisher ausschlie\u00dflich tut, ist, Anwendungen zu entwickeln.", "start": 364.53, "end": 369.01}], "start": 338.9, "end": 369.01, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also keine Sprachmodelle selbst zu entwickeln, sondern die Anwendungen, die dann diese Sprachmodelle verwenden.", "start": 369.01, "end": 373.75}, {"text": "Und wir haben uns die Projekte in der Bundesverwaltung angeschaut, die eben mithilfe von den Sprachmodellen auf Basis dieser Sprachmodelle Anwendung entwickeln, dann eben diese Vorteile f\u00fcr die Bundesverwaltung zu schaffen, von denen wir am Anfang geredet haben, eben chatten, Textzusammenfassung, Recherche und so weiter.", "start": 374.055, "end": 391.14}], "start": 369.01, "end": 391.14, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Denn da stellt sich daher die Frage, grade wenn ich denn auf sozusagen Hintergrundsysteme zur\u00fcckgreife aus den USA, warum ist das wichtig, die Anwendung dann hier selbst zu entwickeln?", "start": 391.14, "end": 401.92502}], "start": 391.14, "end": 401.92502, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, weil es darauf ankommt, wie auf diese Sprachmodelle zugegriffen wird.", "start": 402.145, "end": 406.565}, {"text": "Es gibt beispielsweise OpenAI, die Sprachmodelle werden \u00fcber verschiedene Cloud Funktionen bereitgestellt.", "start": 406.945, "end": 414.09}, {"text": "Eine der bekanntesten ist sicherlich die Azure Cloud.", "start": 414.25, "end": 416.91}, {"text": "Und diese Sprachmodelle sind weder Open Source.", "start": 417.61, "end": 420.75}, {"text": "Dadurch, dass sie nicht Open Source sind, k\u00f6nnen sie beispielsweise nicht auf eigene Hardware gehostet werden.", "start": 421.21, "end": 426.72998}], "start": 402.145, "end": 426.72998, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und es gibt Angebote, sowohl amerikanischer als auch europ\u00e4ischer Art, wo die Modelle eben mindestens die Modellparameter Open Source gestellt sind, sodass die Bundesverwaltung, wenn sie denn m\u00f6chte, diese Modelle nehmen kann und auf ihre eigenen Hardware laufen lassen kann.", "start": 426.72998, "end": 440.845}, {"text": "Und das ist mindestens aus der Perspektive digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ja durchaus notwendig auch, wenn beispielsweise Daten verarbeitet werden sollen, die 'n gewissen Sicherheitssicherheitsstandard erf\u00fcllen m\u00fcssen, weil dann eben keine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika beispielsweise stattfindet.", "start": 440.845, "end": 459.185}], "start": 426.72998, "end": 459.185, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Das hei\u00dft, wenn jetzt beispielsweise B\u00fcrger*innenanfragen kommen, die irgendwo auf 'nem Server zwischengespeichert werden m\u00fcssen, der in den USA steht, hat man nicht so richtig die Kontrolle, was passiert mit diesen Anfragen, was passiert mit den Daten, die dahinter liegen, wenn ich's auf meine eigene Hardware speicher, also auf meinem eigenen Server beispielsweise, der in der Bundesverwaltung steht, da bin ich einfach unabh\u00e4ngiger und sicherer, hab ich so richtig verstanden?", "start": 459.245, "end": 481.48}], "start": 459.245, "end": 481.48, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau und Nicole korrigier mich gerne, aber da gibt's ja auch klare Regularien, was erlaubt und was verboten ist.", "start": 481.62, "end": 485.0}, {"text": "Also eine Daten\u00fcbertragung nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich.", "start": 485.0, "end": 485.048}, {"text": "Und da ist wirklich auch, nach Amerika ist ja nicht so ohne Weiteres m\u00f6glich.", "start": 485.048, "end": 490.49503}], "start": 481.62, "end": 490.49503, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und da ist wirklich auch 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein innerhalb der Projekte vorhanden.", "start": 490.55502, "end": 495.05502}, {"text": "Also von allen Projekten, diesen 33, die Du ja schon erw\u00e4hnt hast, gibt es kein einziges, was angegeben hat, dass die Server au\u00dferhalb der EU stehen w\u00fcrden.", "start": 495.11502, "end": 504.61}, {"text": "Also grade in dem Bezug gibt es 'n sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t.", "start": 504.83, "end": 509.88998}, {"text": "Wir haben uns das ja auf verschiedenen oder aus verschiedenen Perspektiven angeguckt oder wie wir's definiert haben.", "start": 510.27, "end": 515.475}, {"text": "Da geht's bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t einerseits die Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit.", "start": 515.475, "end": 519.975}], "start": 490.55502, "end": 519.975, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also verstehe ich \u00fcberhaupt die Anwendung?", "start": 521.71497, "end": 524.615}, {"text": "Habe ich genug Kompetenzen, das auch beurteilen zu k\u00f6nnen, auch umsetzen zu k\u00f6nnen?", "start": 524.675, "end": 530.29}, {"text": "Dann die Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, also hab ich \u00fcberhaupt verschiedene Alternativen oder gibt es eigentlich nur einen Anbieter, auf den ich zur\u00fcckgreifen kann?", "start": 530.59, "end": 539.87}, {"text": "Dann geborene ich mich nat\u00fcrlich sehr schnell in eine Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, die nat\u00fcrlich sehr unterschiedliche negative Konsequenzen haben kann.", "start": 539.87, "end": 547.275}, {"text": "Also zum einen beispielsweise sehr hohe Lizenzgeb\u00fchren, aber andererseits kann es nat\u00fcrlich auch als geopolitisches Druckmittel gegebenenfalls genutzt werden, wie wir das ja in letzter Zeit immer h\u00e4ufiger gesehen haben.", "start": 547.575, "end": 559.95}], "start": 521.71497, "end": 559.95, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und grade deshalb ist das Thema digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, Doria hat's schon gesagt, ist eigentlich spielt schon l\u00e4nger eine Rolle, aber ist jetzt noch mal ganz besonders ins Bewusstsein getreten.", "start": 560.17004, "end": 570.35004}, {"text": "Und der 3.", "start": 570.745, "end": 571.305}, {"text": "Punkt ist der Einfluss auf Anbieter.", "start": 571.305, "end": 573.145}, {"text": "Also habe ich genug Marktmacht beispielsweise, in Vertragsverhandlungen gewisse Dinge durchzusetzen, gerade auch in Bezug auf Informationssicherheit und Datenschutz und kann ich auch steuern, beispielsweise wie die Anwendung weiterentwickelt werden?", "start": 573.145, "end": 587.69}, {"text": "Wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich sehr hohe eigene Kompetenzen habe und die Anwendung beispielsweise selbst entwickel und das bei mir auch selbst hoste, dann ist dieser Einfluss auf Anbieter nat\u00fcrlich nicht so relevant, wie wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich da auf Fremdleistungen setze insgesamt.", "start": 588.23, "end": 604.865}], "start": 560.17004, "end": 604.865, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau und diese 3 Ziele, die Nicole gerade erw\u00e4hnt hat, die haben wir uns nicht ausgedacht, sondern die stammt tats\u00e4chlich vom IT Planungsrat aus einem Strategiepapier von 20 21.", "start": 605.165, "end": 613.95996}, {"text": "Und diese Ziele, um's noch mal zu wiederholen, das sind Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit, Gestaltungsf\u00e4higkeit und Einfluss auf Anbieter.", "start": 614.82, "end": 620.76}, {"text": "Und das diese 3 Ziele ziehen sich auch durch unser unsere gesamte Studie.", "start": 621.22, "end": 625.77997}, {"text": "Und wir haben dann auf dieser Basis uns gefragt, wir haben diese Ziele?", "start": 625.77997, "end": 630.155}, {"text": "Wie k\u00f6nnen wir sie erreichen?", "start": 630.155, "end": 631.29504}], "start": 605.165, "end": 631.29504, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und sind dann von da gestartet.", "start": 632.075, "end": 634.17505}], "start": 632.075, "end": 634.17505, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Blicken wir noch mal etwas genauer auf die Studie selbst.", "start": 634.715, "end": 637.135}, {"text": "Wie seid ihr vorgegangen?", "start": 637.35504, "end": 638.79504}, {"text": "Wie habt ihr auch methodisch gearbeitet, Dloven?", "start": 638.79504, "end": 640.77}, {"text": "Wir", "start": 640.77, "end": 641.01}], "start": 634.715, "end": 641.01, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "haben diese die Studie dieses Jahr gestartet Anfang diesen Jahres und das ist letztendlich 1 1 1 1 recht gro\u00dfes Projekt geworden.", "start": 641.01, "end": 647.43005}, {"text": "Zentral in dieser Studie war, dass wir eine empirische Analyse durchgef\u00fchrt haben.", "start": 647.97003, "end": 651.97003}, {"text": "Du hattest gesagt.", "start": 651.97003, "end": 652.93005}, {"text": "Wir haben insgesamt 33 Projekte betrachtet.", "start": 652.93005, "end": 656.365}, {"text": "Eigentlich waren's urspr\u00fcnglich viel mehr.", "start": 656.425, "end": 657.945}], "start": 641.01, "end": 657.945, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Es waren 180 Projekte, die wir vom Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten.", "start": 657.945, "end": 662.045}, {"text": "Das ist eine Plattform, die das Innenministerium letztes Jahr bereitgestellt hat, wo alle KI Projekte der Bundesverwaltung gelistet werden.", "start": 662.585, "end": 670.84}, {"text": "Von der sind wir ausgegangen und haben diese Projekte gefiltert nach Projekten, wo eben gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle verwendet werden.", "start": 670.84, "end": 679.18}, {"text": "Und sind dann auf diese Projekte, das waren dann 80, wo die wir identifiziert sind zugegangen und haben eben Daten erhoben.", "start": 679.32, "end": 686.475}, {"text": "Und zwar Daten zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t nach unserem Verst\u00e4ndnis.", "start": 686.535, "end": 690.39496}], "start": 657.945, "end": 690.39496, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und f\u00fcr unser Verst\u00e4ndnis ausgehend von den 3 Zielen zu pr\u00e4zisieren, haben wir 'n Indikator Katalog entwickelt.", "start": 690.695, "end": 697.51996}, {"text": "Und diese Indikatoren waren folgenderma\u00dfen, dass wir jeder Indikator hat quasi einen Wert, den er annehmen kann von 0 bis 4, wobei 4 der Maximalwert, also der die Wunschauspr\u00e4gung ist und 0 quasi keine Auspr\u00e4gung, also die negativste.", "start": 697.51996, "end": 712.105}, {"text": "Und diese Indikatoren haben wir in einen Erhebungsbogen umformuliert und dann sind dann die Projekte herangetreten mit dem Wunsch, die auszuf\u00fcllen.", "start": 712.645, "end": 719.46497}, {"text": "Und mit den Resultaten, mit den Ergebnissen sind wir dann, die haben wir dann verarbeitet und in dieser Studie aufbereitet.", "start": 720.08496, "end": 725.91003}, {"text": "Das ist der Kern der Studie.", "start": 726.61005, "end": 728.31006}], "start": 690.695, "end": 728.31006, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wir sind aber noch dar\u00fcber hinausgegangen und haben eine Marktbetrachtung durchgef\u00fchrt.", "start": 728.37006, "end": 732.95}, {"text": "Wir haben uns die aktuellen Strategien sowohl im Inland als auch im Ausland zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t mit immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle.", "start": 733.17004, "end": 737.51}, {"text": "Mit Bezug immer mit Bezug auf gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle angeschaut.", "start": 739.285, "end": 742.185}, {"text": "Und sind dann zum Schluss haben alles zusammengef\u00fchrt zu einigen weiterf\u00fchrenden Handlungsempfehlungen.", "start": 743.365, "end": 749.385}], "start": 728.37006, "end": 749.385, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ja, eine Beobachtung, die haben wir grad schon ein wenig auseinandergenommen, n\u00e4mlich die Bundesverwaltung entwickelt Anwendungen selbst auch auf eigener Hardware, auf eigenen Server.", "start": 750.63, "end": 759.35004}, {"text": "Und da habt ihr auch gesagt, das findet ihr eigentlich so ganz gut und das kann man auch so unterst\u00fctzen.", "start": 759.35004, "end": 763.77}, {"text": "'N anderes Thema, das ihr beobachtet habt, das ist grad schon gefallen, der Begriff Open Source.", "start": 764.34503, "end": 768.925}, {"text": "Auch Open Source Systeme stammen h\u00e4ufig aus den USA oder aus Asien und ihr sagt aber, na ja, wir w\u00fcrden pl\u00e4dieren f\u00fcr L\u00f6sungen, die auf europ\u00e4ische Normen und Werte, Zitat, ausgerichtet sind.", "start": 769.305, "end": 781.39}, {"text": "Was steckt hinter der Idee?", "start": 781.45, "end": 782.91}], "start": 750.63, "end": 782.91, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Da m\u00fcssen wir vielleicht ganz kleines bisschen ausholen und diesen Open Source Begriff im Kontext von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen noch mal definieren.", "start": 783.21, "end": 791.15}], "start": 783.21, "end": 791.15, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ja, gerne.", "start": 791.21, "end": 791.85}], "start": 791.21, "end": 791.85, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau.", "start": 791.85, "end": 792.35}, {"text": "Und zwar in bei herk\u00f6mmlicher Software ist Open Source relativ klar.", "start": 792.41, "end": 798.805}, {"text": "Also Code, eine Software besteht aus Code.", "start": 798.945, "end": 802.545}, {"text": "Und wenn diese dieser Code offengelegt ist, dann k\u00f6nnen wir von Open Source reden.", "start": 802.545, "end": 806.725}, {"text": "Bei der Entwicklung und Bereitstellung von gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen ist das nicht ganz so leicht.", "start": 807.19, "end": 811.44995}], "start": 791.85, "end": 811.44995, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wir haben zum einen, und das ist das Zentrale, wenn ich 'n Sprachmodell offenstelle, dann stell ich eigentlich die Parameter und die Struktur der des Sprachmodells auf.", "start": 811.67, "end": 820.04504}, {"text": "Und diese Parameter, das sind letztendlich einfach nur Zahlen in in Matrixform.", "start": 820.04504, "end": 825.585}, {"text": "Und diese Zahlen kann ich mir hernehmen und in in mein Modell stecken und dann kann ich das betreiben.", "start": 825.805, "end": 830.945}, {"text": "Aber ein gro\u00dfes zentrales Ziel von Open Source ist Nachvollziehbarkeit.", "start": 831.325, "end": 835.54004}, {"text": "Und Nachvollziehbarkeit ist allein dadurch bei Sprachmodellen nicht gegeben.", "start": 836.88, "end": 840.4}], "start": 811.67, "end": 840.4, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ich brauch eben viel mehr Information diese Parameter herum und zwar vor allem, was den Trainingsprozess angeht.", "start": 840.4, "end": 847.30005}, {"text": "Das hei\u00dft, es m\u00fcssen muss offengelegt werden, welche Daten verwendet wurden.", "start": 847.64496, "end": 852.445}, {"text": "Also Sprachmodelle werden ja immer auf einem gro\u00dfen Datensatz trainiert.", "start": 852.445, "end": 855.825}, {"text": "Und dieser Datensatz ist eigentlich zentral daf\u00fcr, nachvollziehen zu k\u00f6nnen, wie das Sprachmodell funktioniert.", "start": 855.885, "end": 864.13}, {"text": "Genau.", "start": 865.63, "end": 866.13}], "start": 840.4, "end": 866.13, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und und dieses Verst\u00e4ndnis von Open Source hat sich in den letzten Jahren nun mal ver\u00e4ndert.", "start": 866.51, "end": 870.77}, {"text": "Und grade die nicht europ\u00e4ischen Anbieter verstehen unter Open Source eben einen recht recht begrenzten Blick eben.", "start": 871.15, "end": 879.035}, {"text": "Sie sie \u00f6ffnen lediglich die Modellparameter und sagen dann, sie haben 'n Open Source Modell.", "start": 879.035, "end": 883.615}, {"text": "Und wir, 'n europ\u00e4isches Verst\u00e4ndnis ist 'n bisschen weiterf\u00fchren, ne.", "start": 883.675, "end": 886.635}, {"text": "Wir warten halt oder mit, etwas vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source haben eben das, was ich grade erkl\u00e4rt hatte, die Informationen das ganze das Sprachmodell herum ebenfalls.", "start": 886.635, "end": 894.69}], "start": 866.51, "end": 894.69, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und das w\u00fcnscht ihr euch eben auch, was jetzt die Entwicklung angeht, die Sprachmodelle herum, dass die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch aus dem Sinne der Transparenz, der Autonomie selbst solche europ\u00e4ischen L\u00f6sungen entwickelt?", "start": 895.55, "end": 906.725}], "start": 895.55, "end": 906.725, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ob sie die selber entwickeln muss, so weit w\u00fcrden wir nicht gehen.", "start": 906.945, "end": 909.90497}, {"text": "Also auf Sprachmodellebene, wir haben durchaus Also wir haben eine Empfehlung drin, wo wir sagen, es sollte evaluiert werden, ob es sinnvoll w\u00e4re, ein eigenes Sprachmodell zu entwickeln.", "start": 909.90497, "end": 919.92}, {"text": "Aber wir sehen auch die Risiken dabei.", "start": 919.92, "end": 921.36}, {"text": "Und die Risiken sind vor allem die enorm hohen Kosten bei gleichzeitig hoher dynamischer Marktentwicklung.", "start": 921.36, "end": 928.42}, {"text": "Also wenn wenn wir uns die Modelle an von OpenAI noch mal anschauen und da die Modelle, die vor 2 Jahren rauskommen, sind heute komplett veraltet und niemand w\u00fcrde sie mehr nutzen, eben weil der weil die Entwicklung so rasant fortschreitet.", "start": 928.8, "end": 939.965}], "start": 906.945, "end": 939.965, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wir haben jetzt in der in der Schweiz ist ein Sprachmodell entwickelt worden nach diesen Standards, die ich eben beschrieben hatte.", "start": 940.10504, "end": 946.41}, {"text": "Das ist jetzt im September rausgekommen.", "start": 946.41, "end": 948.17}, {"text": "Das ist vollst\u00e4ndig Open Source.", "start": 948.17, "end": 949.87}, {"text": "Und bevor Deutschland jetzt sagt, wir brauchen so was auch, sollte zuerst mal evaluiert werden von den Modellen, die's denn jetzt bereits in Europa gibt, sind vielleicht einige davon besser nutzbar und sollten wir vielleicht auf uns auf die Folge fokussieren.", "start": 950.64996, "end": 963.485}], "start": 940.10504, "end": 963.485, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, die Krux w\u00e4re ja dabei.", "start": 963.705, "end": 965.865}, {"text": "Also wenn ich tats\u00e4chlich sage, es wir machen einen einen europ\u00e4ischen Effort daraus und versuchen jetzt auch, ein Sprachmodell zu entwickeln, was tats\u00e4chlich mit den mit den gro\u00dfen etablierten Anbietern, einige haben wir jetzt genannt, mithalten kann.", "start": 965.865, "end": 980.69}, {"text": "Dann m\u00fcsste es tats\u00e4chlich mithalten k\u00f6nnen, was die Leistung angeht und sollte dar\u00fcber hinaus dann eben noch weitere Kriterien erf\u00fcllen?", "start": 980.83, "end": 990.615}, {"text": "Also beispielsweise einem strengeren Datenschutz- und Pers\u00f6nlichkeitsrechte, Urheberrechtsverst\u00e4ndnisfolgen, wie es hier in Europa vielleicht schon ein bisschen anders ist als in anderen L\u00e4ndern, die f\u00fchrend in der Entwicklung sind, die den USA oder China beispielsweise und genau, solche solche Werte eben auch pr\u00e4sentieren.", "start": 991.155, "end": 1011.4}, {"text": "Und dann ist schon die Frage, ist das realistisch als Ziel sicherlich w\u00fcnschenswert, aber man muss da einfach gut abw\u00e4gen, weil es nat\u00fcrlich auch ja enorme Ressourcen braucht, so etwas erst einmal zu entwickeln.", "start": 1011.875, "end": 1026.855}], "start": 963.705, "end": 1026.855, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Aber 'n bisschen niedrigschwelliger ansetzen kann man auf jeden Fall, also wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch in so hohem Ma\u00dfe, wie wir's ja festgestellt haben, auch auf Open Source setzt, selbst setzt, dann w\u00e4re es ja vielleicht w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn sich die Verwaltung auch st\u00e4rker engagiert.", "start": 1027.1599, "end": 1044.165}, {"text": "Also beispielsweise in Open Source Allianzen und Konsortien und auch an Open Source ja Open Source st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt, nicht nur finanziell, sondern tats\u00e4chlich auch daran mitarbeitet, organisatorisch, gegebenenfalls auch technisch, sich st\u00e4rker mit dieser Community vernetzt, ein Teil davon wird.", "start": 1044.625, "end": 1063.08}, {"text": "Und dadurch nat\u00fcrlich, wenn die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung auch direkt an solchen Entwicklungen partizipiert und mitarbeitet, dann nat\u00fcrlich auch ihre eigenen Bedarfe sehr viel einfacher und schneller einbringen kann und dadurch die Entwicklung nat\u00fcrlich auch 'n bisschen steuern kann, dass das dann auch tats\u00e4chlich f\u00fcr die Verwaltung selbst am Ende wieder sehr gut nutzbar ist.", "start": 1063.38, "end": 1084.02}, {"text": "Weil das fehlt teilweise noch ein bisschen.", "start": 1084.34, "end": 1086.6}, {"text": "Also dass tats\u00e4chlich, dass es tats\u00e4chlich relativ wenig gibt, was explizit jetzt auf die Verwaltung zugeschnitten ist, was vielleicht ja auch ein Grund daf\u00fcr ist, dass vieles einfach aktuell, was in der Bundesverwaltung auf jeden Fall passiert, dann auch Eigenentwicklungen sind.", "start": 1087.14, "end": 1102.2749}], "start": 1027.1599, "end": 1102.2749, "num_words": 187.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Nicole, das bringen wir gleich zum n\u00e4chsten Punkt, was wir diskutieren.", "start": 1102.335, "end": 1105.075}, {"text": "Wir reden jetzt ja immer von der Verwaltung, aber nat\u00fcrlich gibt's ja sowohl in Deutschland als auch auf europ\u00e4ischer Ebene zig verschiedene Beh\u00f6rden.", "start": 1105.695, "end": 1112.595}, {"text": "Wenn die jetzt anfangen, alle ihre eigene Softwarel\u00f6sung zu stricken, dann ist das nat\u00fcrlich teuer und auch sehr umst\u00e4ndlich.", "start": 1112.79, "end": 1118.0901}, {"text": "Wie kann man denn ein einheitliches und auch beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifendes System etablieren?", "start": 1119.11, "end": 1122.9701}, {"text": "Also wie kann man da mehr in sonen Art Zusammenarbeiten kommen?", "start": 1123.03, "end": 1125.93}], "start": 1102.335, "end": 1125.93, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Da gibt's", "start": 1126.1449, "end": 1126.345}], "start": 1126.1449, "end": 1126.345, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "verschiedene M\u00f6glichkeiten.", "start": 1126.345, "end": 1126.965}, {"text": "Also wir haben schon festgestellt, dass sich die Mehrheit der Projekte, die wir jetzt befragt haben, auch austauschen mit mit externen mit anderen KI Projekten und das ist nat\u00fcrlich eine M\u00f6glichkeit, wenn man wei\u00df, was in anderen Beh\u00f6rden schon entwickelt wird, dann vielleicht zu sagen, na gut, dann brauchen wir da vielleicht jetzt nicht noch mal was Eigenes zu entwickeln.", "start": 1127.745, "end": 1149.0599}, {"text": "Wir k\u00f6nnen das ja erst mal 'n bisschen begleiten, vielleicht machen wir's auch zusammen und k\u00f6nnen es dann hinterher nachnutzen.", "start": 1149.0599, "end": 1154.2}, {"text": "Da kommen wir dann gleich schon zu zu 1 Krux, weil Open Source wird genutzt, aber was man selbst entwickelt hat, dann auch wieder als Open Source oder zur Nachnutzung bereitzustellen, da hapert es noch ein bisschen.", "start": 1155.2151, "end": 1169.85}, {"text": "Also das war 1 der Schwachpunkte, der sich noch herausgestellt hat in der Studie.", "start": 1169.85, "end": 1174.19}], "start": 1126.345, "end": 1174.19, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Was gegebenenfalls auch vielfach daran liegt, dass in den Teams, die daf\u00fcr zust\u00e4ndig sind, die entsprechenden rechtlichen Kompetenzen nicht so stark vorhanden sind, wie beispielsweise fachliche oder technische Kompetenzen zur Entwicklung der entsprechenden Anwendungen.", "start": 1175.0499, "end": 1190.7549}, {"text": "Also da k\u00f6nnte man definitiv noch was verbessern, dass ich dann sage, okay, wenn hier schon was entwickelt wird, dann k\u00f6nnen es andere sollten das andere auch leichter nachnutzen k\u00f6nnen und dann sollte ich auch versuchen, es vielleicht als Open Source sogar zur Verf\u00fcgung zu stellen, da den Kreis der Nachnutzenden noch gr\u00f6\u00dfer zu halten.", "start": 1191.455, "end": 1209.8201}, {"text": "Genau, das w\u00e4re das eine und sehr stark vereinfachen w\u00fcrde es das nat\u00fcrlich auch, wenn man eine gemeinsame Infrastruktur h\u00e4tte.", "start": 1210.225, "end": 1218.8049}, {"text": "Also das war auch ein Wunsch, der vielfach ge\u00e4u\u00dfert wurde.", "start": 1219.1849, "end": 1222.325}, {"text": "Daran wird in Teilen auch schon ein bisschen gearbeitet, recht von Keepads.", "start": 1223.105, "end": 1228.61}], "start": 1175.0499, "end": 1228.61, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Dorian, vielleicht kannst Du dazu gleich noch 'n bisschen was sagen, aber das, weil auch da macht jeder noch son bisschen sein eigenes S\u00fcppchen und ja, dadurch hat man nat\u00fcrlich, wenn man dann nur f\u00fcr sich selbst beschafft, eine geringere Markt macht.", "start": 1228.75, "end": 1241.845}, {"text": "Wir haben Insell\u00f6sungen, wir haben ganz verschiedene Dinge, die da die da beschafft werden und es w\u00e4re schon einfacher, wenn man sagt, wir haben da eine gemeinsame KI Infrastruktur, entsprechende GPU Kapazit\u00e4ten, die wir alle nutzen k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 1241.845, "end": 1256.13}, {"text": "Dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir das insgesamt vielleicht auch besser ausnutzen, dadurch k\u00f6nnen wir besser zusammenarbeiten, Dinge, die entwickelt sind, auch teilen und haben vielleicht auch gegen\u00fcber den Anbietern noch mal eine st\u00e4rkere Marktmacht, wenn wir uns da einfach als Nachfrageseite zusammentun auf Seiten der Verwaltung.", "start": 1256.27, "end": 1273.395}], "start": 1228.75, "end": 1273.395, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also sone gemeinsame Infrastruktur auf deutscher, vielleicht sogar europ\u00e4ischer Ebene, Dorianne.", "start": 1273.535, "end": 1277.535}, {"text": "Wie kann das aussehen?", "start": 1277.535, "end": 1278.63}], "start": 1273.535, "end": 1278.63, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ah, ich m\u00f6chte gern noch 2 Punkte zu dem erg\u00e4nzen, was Nicole gesagt hat.", "start": 1278.63, "end": 1281.75}, {"text": "Ich denke, genau dieser Infrastrukturgedanke ist bei KI entscheidend, und zwar diese Trennung zu machen, die wir am Anfang aufgemacht haben zwischen Sprachmodell und Anwendung.", "start": 1281.75, "end": 1291.4501}, {"text": "Wenn die Sprachmodelle zentral auf spezialisierter KI Hardware bereitgestellt werden k\u00f6nnten, idealerweise noch an unterschiedlichen Schutzbedarfen, dann k\u00f6nnten unterschiedliche Beh\u00f6rden auf diese zentral bereitgestellten K-Ressourcen zugreifen und k\u00f6nnten eventuell, falls sinnvoll, ihre eigenen Anwendungen darauf entwickeln.", "start": 1291.785, "end": 1313.2}, {"text": "Dann h\u00e4tten wir auch diese Trennung zwischen Kompetenzen, weil Kompetenzen in der Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich inzwischen in fast jeder Beh\u00f6rde vorhanden.", "start": 1313.2, "end": 1321.185}, {"text": "Und eine spezialisierte Anwendung f\u00fcr den spezialisierten Anwendungsfall in 1 Beh\u00f6rde zu entwickeln, das sollte kein Problem sein.", "start": 1321.725, "end": 1329.505}], "start": 1278.63, "end": 1329.505, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wenn die KI Kompetenz von anderer Seite kommt, Daran hapert das ja h\u00e4ufiger.", "start": 1329.5651, "end": 1334.06}, {"text": "Und diese KI Kompetenz k\u00f6nnte dann eben an dieser zentralen Stelle aufgebaut werden, wo dann die KI Ressourcen bereitgestellt sind.", "start": 1334.06, "end": 1340.9601}, {"text": "Und die nachnutzenden Beh\u00f6rden w\u00fcrden einfach auf diese Ressourcen zugreifen und w\u00fcrden mittels dieser dann ihre Anwendung entwickeln.", "start": 1341.1, "end": 1347.4401}, {"text": "Und wir haben uns Projekte angeschaut, die so was in die Richtung tats\u00e4chlich auch tun.", "start": 1348.755, "end": 1355.475}, {"text": "Also wir haben in eine von den 33 Projekten auf Bundesverwaltung haben wir eine grunds\u00e4tzliche Unterscheidung gemacht in jene, welche Beh\u00f6rden spezifisch f\u00fcr sich selbst etwas entwickeln und welche, die den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Fokus anstreben.", "start": 1355.475, "end": 1367.5901}], "start": 1329.5651, "end": 1367.5901, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und vor allem dieser Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifende Aspekt war f\u00fcr uns sehr interessant.", "start": 1367.5901, "end": 1371.43}, {"text": "Und ein Projekt, Nicole hat es grade genannt, ist KeePids.", "start": 1371.43, "end": 1374.23}, {"text": "KeePids ist vom ITZ Bund aufgebaut und verfolgt eben diesen Ansatz, dass im ITZ Bund ja viel technische und KI Kompetenz vorhanden ist.", "start": 1374.23, "end": 1385.405}, {"text": "Und die Idee bei KeepIDS ist, dass Beh\u00f6rden auf des ITZ Bund zukommen k\u00f6nnen und mit der Bitte oder der die vielleicht den Bedarf haben, eine Karrierenanwendung zu entwickeln.", "start": 1385.405, "end": 1396.7101}, {"text": "Und das ITZ Bund hostet also hostet dann auf Ihren Ressourcen sicher und halt sicher die Modelle und k\u00f6nnen gegebenenfalls auch bei der Anwendungsentwicklung unterst\u00fctzen.", "start": 1397.0901, "end": 1409.015}], "start": 1367.5901, "end": 1409.015, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau.", "start": 1409.955, "end": 1410.455}], "start": 1409.955, "end": 1410.455, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also zumindest eine zentrale Beh\u00f6rde, die Ansprechpartner ist und auch entwickeln kann.", "start": 1410.595, "end": 1414.435}], "start": 1410.595, "end": 1414.435, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau.", "start": 1414.435, "end": 1414.935}, {"text": "Mhm.", "start": 1415.075, "end": 1415.475}], "start": 1414.435, "end": 1415.475, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Schauen wir uns noch 'n weiteren Punkt an, den ihr beschrieben habt.", "start": 1415.475, "end": 1418.37}, {"text": "Diese M-Systeme, die sollten die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit der Verwaltung nicht einschr\u00e4nken, wenn sie ausfallen.", "start": 1418.61, "end": 1423.75}, {"text": "Finde ich auch sehr plausibel und sehr nachvollziehbar.", "start": 1423.8099, "end": 1425.75}, {"text": "Erst haben wir schon gesagt, eingangs, na ja, diese Systeme sollen ja nicht Mitarbeitende ersetzen, sie sollen sie unterst\u00fctzen.", "start": 1426.61, "end": 1433.4349}, {"text": "Dennoch, wenn ich solche Systeme in der Hand hab, dann bin ich ja sehr viel produktiver.", "start": 1433.495, "end": 1436.875}], "start": 1415.475, "end": 1436.875, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und wenn die ausfallen, kann's ja dennoch, ne, einfach schwerwiegende Folgen haben, ist das einfach riskant, ne, dass man einem sagt, wir haben immer weniger Mitarbeitende, die immer effektiver arbeiten mit solchen Systemen und wenn sie ausfallen, haben wir halt 'n Problem?", "start": 1437.575, "end": 1452.09}], "start": 1437.575, "end": 1452.09, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Zuk\u00fcnftig kann das Risiko steigen.", "start": 1452.63, "end": 1455.2899}, {"text": "Und je h\u00f6her das Risiko, desto wichtiger ist es, sicherzustellen, dass wir diese Systeme nicht ausfallen, dass wir nicht in irgendwelchen Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten uns bewegen, wo externe Akteure dann sagen k\u00f6nnen, wir wollen der deutschland \u00f6ffentlichen Verwaltung schaden.", "start": 1455.35, "end": 1473.96}, {"text": "Wir stellen diese Systeme jetzt ab und unsere gesamte Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit ist dadurch bedroht.", "start": 1473.96, "end": 1479.24}, {"text": "Das sollte nicht passieren.", "start": 1479.24, "end": 1480.28}, {"text": "Und das ist eigentlich auch 1 der zentralen Gedanken bei digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t, diese Schmerzpunkte nicht entstehen zu lassen.", "start": 1480.28, "end": 1487.1849}], "start": 1452.63, "end": 1487.1849, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Wir haben ja nur den aktuell den den den Stand den aktuellen Stand betrachtet und kommen eben zu dem Schluss, dass das derzeit nicht der Fall ist, dass selbst wenn diese Systeme, was nicht passieren wird, alle ausfallen sollten, w\u00fcrde die \u00f6ffentliche Verwaltung mindestens derzeit noch handlungsf\u00e4hig bleiben.", "start": 1487.245, "end": 1505.25}, {"text": "Mhm.", "start": 1505.39, "end": 1505.89}], "start": 1487.245, "end": 1505.89, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Ja und Nicole, ich dachte jetzt auch auf der anderen Seite, die Verwaltung ist ja im Fall 1 Grippewelle oder wir erinnern uns an Corona in eine Pandemie auch eingeschr\u00e4nkt, ne.", "start": 1506.51, "end": 1515.325}, {"text": "Insofern, solche Gefahren gibt's wahrscheinlich immer oder?", "start": 1515.325, "end": 1518.225}], "start": 1506.51, "end": 1518.225, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Solche Gefahren k\u00f6nnen genau nat\u00fcrlich durch durch verschiedene Dinge bedingt sein.", "start": 1518.685, "end": 1523.905}, {"text": "Allerdings, wir haben es ja jetzt gesehen beispielsweise mit der AWS Cloud und entsprechenden Ausf\u00e4llen, je nachdem, ob man dann eben genau vielleicht eine Wechselm\u00f6glichkeit hat, ein 1 redundant ausgelegtes System oder nicht, kann man davon nat\u00fcrlich st\u00e4rker oder weniger stark betroffen sein.", "start": 1524.5801, "end": 1543.455}, {"text": "Dorian hat schon gesagt, aktuell ist das Risiko eher gering.", "start": 1544.235, "end": 1548.475}, {"text": "Das liegt daran, dass die meisten Anwendungen sich eher auf, also eher noch nicht die komplette Verwaltung betreffen, sondern f\u00fcr spezifische Fachreferate oder f\u00fcr einzelne Ministerien konzipiert sind und auch f\u00fcr relativ spezialisierte Aufgaben gedacht sind.", "start": 1548.475, "end": 1566.87}, {"text": "Also beispielsweise 'n Rechercheassistent eben.", "start": 1566.87, "end": 1569.975}], "start": 1518.685, "end": 1569.975, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Mhm.", "start": 1570.035, "end": 1570.1951}], "start": 1570.035, "end": 1570.1951, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und wenn", "start": 1570.1951, "end": 1570.515}], "start": 1570.1951, "end": 1570.515, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "er dann ausf\u00e4llt, dann ist das 'n bisschen nervig und ich brauche ein bisschen l\u00e4nger, aber also man kann jetzt nicht davon sprechen, dass die Handlungsf\u00e4higkeit bedroht ist.", "start": 1570.515, "end": 1579.44}, {"text": "Aber wenn ich nat\u00fcrlich Systeme habe, die f\u00fcr vielf\u00e4ltige Aufgaben genutzt werden und die vielleicht auch auf die komplette Verwaltung skaliert werden, dann werden solche Probleme nat\u00fcrlich virulenter und dann muss ich nat\u00fcrlich noch st\u00e4rker Sicherungsma\u00dfnahmen treffen und da gibt's ja verschiedene, die wir untersuchen oder die wir auch vorschlagen.", "start": 1580.08, "end": 1599.475}, {"text": "Also es gibt zum Beispiel auch doch einige Projekte, bei denen ich zum Beispiel zwischen verschiedenen Sprachmodellen auch unterschiedlicher Anbieter w\u00e4hlen und wechseln kann.", "start": 1599.695, "end": 1609.85}, {"text": "Und wenn dann nat\u00fcrlich ein Sprachmodell beispielsweise nicht mehr verf\u00fcgbar w\u00e4re, w\u00e4r's ja nicht tragisch, weil ich ja immer noch weitere zur Auswahl h\u00e4tte und trotzdem ja die Anwendung weiter nutzen kann und die Aufgaben weiter erf\u00fcllen kann.", "start": 1610.39, "end": 1622.145}, {"text": "Und da gibt's nat\u00fcrlich noch andere Ma\u00dfnahmen, die man dann entsprechend ergreifen kann.", "start": 1622.625, "end": 1626.3251}], "start": 1570.515, "end": 1626.3251, "num_words": 153.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Es gibt noch 'n paar so abschlie\u00dfend weitere Herausforderungen, die ihr seht, rechtliche Unsicherheiten beim Einsatz von KI Modellen, die KI Kompetenz in einigen Teams, die habt ihr schon angesprochen, aber auch organisatorische H\u00fcrden, die Entwicklungsprozesse erschweren k\u00f6nnen.", "start": 1626.385, "end": 1640.8099}, {"text": "Wo dr\u00fcckt der Schuh am meisten?", "start": 1640.87, "end": 1642.49}], "start": 1626.385, "end": 1642.49, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, also wir haben neben der quantitativen Datenerhebung Ende auch noch Interviews gef\u00fchrt mit den Projektverantwortlichen der Projekte, die wir als als relevant erachtet haben.", "start": 1642.7899, "end": 1653.015}, {"text": "Und eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig bem\u00e4ngelt wurde die schwierig rechtlichen Unsicherheiten, die aktuell vorherrschen.", "start": 1653.635, "end": 1662.535}, {"text": "Das ist die, also das ist vor allem das Zusammenspiel aus der KI Verordnung der der EU, aber auch in der DSGVO, welche rechtlichen Regeln wann wie greifen, wie das auch mit Open Source zusammenspielt.", "start": 1662.6749, "end": 1677.79}, {"text": "Das war ein Punkt, Nicole hatte das ja vorhin auch erw\u00e4hnt, dass viele zwar auf Open Source zugreifen, ihre eigenen entwickelten Anwendungen werden aber nicht Open Source stellen.", "start": 1678.865, "end": 1688.0651}, {"text": "Das ist teilweise eben aus aus Unsicherheiten heraus so, hat sich so entwickelt.", "start": 1688.0651, "end": 1693.605}], "start": 1642.7899, "end": 1693.605, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und dann der andere Punkt ist, dass die die Kompetenzen innerhalb der Entwicklungsteams eigentlich durchg\u00e4ngig jetzt relativ hoch angesehen werden, der die das Risiko eher bei deren auf auf Ebene der Nutzenden angesehen wird.", "start": 1694.76, "end": 1711.415}, {"text": "Also da wird stark da daf\u00fcr pl\u00e4diert, deutlich mehr in den Kompetenzaufbau zu investieren, weil das Risiko letztendlich ja bei Also eine Anwendung kann nur so gut sein wie der Nutzende am Ende, der diese Anwendung dann verwendet.", "start": 1711.415, "end": 1728.66}, {"text": "Und wir sehen jetzt schon auch aus anderen Studien, dass teilweise selbst wenn theoretisch Eigenentwicklungen bereitst\u00fcnden, die Verwaltungsmitarbeiten zu teilen, trotzdem eher auf ChatGPT zugreifen.", "start": 1728.7201, "end": 1742.6051}, {"text": "Kann man jetzt sehen, wie man m\u00f6chte, aber da liegen auf jeden Fall Risiken, die die nicht ja, die die betrachtet werden m\u00fcssen.", "start": 1744.265, "end": 1752.1}], "start": 1694.76, "end": 1752.1, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, was wir noch hatten.", "start": 1752.1, "end": 1753.46}, {"text": "Also zum einen war es ja dieses, es w\u00e4re w\u00fcnschenswert, wenn es irgendwie eine gemeinsame KI Cloud Infrastruktur g\u00e4be, die man nutzen k\u00f6nnte.", "start": 1753.46, "end": 1761.88}, {"text": "Und was also wir haben uns ja auch die Daten angeguckt, die genutzt werden.", "start": 1762.5, "end": 1767.2649}, {"text": "Da gab es, glaube ich, kein einziges Projekt, was auf propriet\u00e4re Daten zur\u00fcckgegriffen hat.", "start": 1767.8849, "end": 1773.0049}, {"text": "Das hei\u00dft, die Daten, die genutzt wurden, die waren entweder \u00f6ffentlich oder eben eigene Daten der jeweiligen Beh\u00f6rde.", "start": 1773.0049, "end": 1779.97}], "start": 1752.1, "end": 1779.97, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Aber grade da hat haben tats\u00e4chlich auch Probleme geschlummert, dass diese Daten in so heterogenen Formaten nicht standardisiert vorliegen und deshalb halt auch zum Teil nicht auf jeden Fall nicht optimal nutzbar sind f\u00fcr die jeweiligen Anwendungen.", "start": 1780.51, "end": 1798.815}, {"text": "Also das ist tats\u00e4chlich aktuell auch noch ein Hemmschuh, was solche Systeme in der Verwaltung betrifft.", "start": 1799.4349, "end": 1804.575}, {"text": "Einfach ja, es sind viele Daten da, aber teilweise sind sie halt so heterogen oder oder unstrukturiert und unstandardisiert, dass sie sich nicht bestm\u00f6glich nutzen lassen.", "start": 1804.81, "end": 1814.11}, {"text": "Und da wird ja auch schon einiges getan, deswegen ist es zu vermuten, dass sich die Datenqualit\u00e4t in der Zukunft erh\u00f6hen wird, aber alle Daten, die schon vorliegen, auch noch mal deren Qualit\u00e4t zu verbessern, ist nat\u00fcrlich ein riesiges Unterfangen, deswegen wird das wahrscheinlich eher nicht angegangen werden Und damit bleibt dieses Problem dann in Teilen auch bestehen.", "start": 1814.5701, "end": 1833.69}], "start": 1780.51, "end": 1833.69, "num_words": 137.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "So unterm Strich, wenn ihr jetzt an diese auf diese Studie blickt, was nehmt ihr f\u00fcr euch mit?", "start": 1833.99, "end": 1838.71}, {"text": "Also was hat euch vielleicht \u00fcberrascht und was wird euch auch weiter besch\u00e4ftigen?", "start": 1838.71, "end": 1842.65}], "start": 1833.99, "end": 1842.65, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Die gr\u00f6\u00dfte Erkenntnis f\u00fcr mich ist gewesen, und zwar die ist positiv, dass fast durchg\u00e4ngig eigentlich Kriterien digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zumindest in Teilen schon beachtet werden, dass viel auf Open Source gesetzt wird, unabh\u00e4ngig jetzt, ob amerikanisch oder europ\u00e4isch, aber Open Source wird eingesetzt.", "start": 1843.285, "end": 1864.8501}, {"text": "Und insbesondere bei den Beh\u00f6rden\u00fcbergreifenden Projekten, die also entsprechend auch 'n h\u00f6heren Einfluss auf die auf m\u00f6gliche Risiken zur digitalen Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t haben k\u00f6nnten, eben weil mehr Menschen dieses System am Ende nutzen werden, werden wird wird digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t zentral betrachtet und beachtet in den Projekten.", "start": 1865.63, "end": 1887.8601}, {"text": "Das ist eigentlich und das ist 'n positives Fazit, was wir hier ziehen und was wir gerne auch unterstreichen w\u00fcrden und dann eben auch mit den Handlungsempfehlungen in die Richtung denken, dass das eben bewahrt bleibt und in Zukunft noch st\u00e4rker unterst\u00fctzt werden werden kann.", "start": 1887.8601, "end": 1902.195}], "start": 1843.285, "end": 1902.195, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Nicole, was nimmst Du mit?", "start": 1902.195, "end": 1903.515}], "start": 1902.195, "end": 1903.515, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Genau, das h\u00e4tte ich auch so gesagt.", "start": 1903.515, "end": 1905.115}, {"text": "Also das dass tats\u00e4chlich innerhalb der Projekte ein 1 sehr hohes Bewusstsein f\u00fcr diese Problematik besteht, auch schon diverse Ma\u00dfnahmen ergriffen werden, zu verhindern, dass man in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten \u00fcberhaupt einmal geraten kann.", "start": 1905.115, "end": 1920.97}, {"text": "Ich find's auch positiv, dass es schon ja, dass es schon viele Projekte gibt, die sich auch untereinander austauschen.", "start": 1921.59, "end": 1928.65}, {"text": "Auch da ist der Wunsch, da das eigentlich noch zu intensivieren.", "start": 1929.03, "end": 1933.025}, {"text": "Das scheitert dann teilweise tats\u00e4chlich eher an, ja, an geringer Zeit f\u00fcr solchen Austausch und dass ja auch schon versucht wird, das noch weiter zu verst\u00e4rken, also die Zusammenarbeit noch st\u00e4rker zu erm\u00f6glichen, Nachnutzung zu erm\u00f6glichen, Austausch, dass da eben nicht Parallelentwicklungen stattfinden, beispielsweise \u00fcber den Marktplatz der KI M\u00f6glichkeiten, dass auch tats\u00e4chlich zentral ja Beratungs- und Kompetenzstellen geschaffen werden, zum Beispiel das BEKI, die dann auch \u00fcber entsprechende Kompetenzen verf\u00fcgen und beraten k\u00f6nnen in der kompletten Bundesverwaltung.", "start": 1933.245, "end": 1971.905}], "start": 1903.515, "end": 1971.905, "num_words": 147.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Also da ist 'n hohes Bewusstsein und da wird einfach auch schon schon einiges getan und auch das Fazit, dass wir sagen k\u00f6nnen, aktuell sehen wir eigentlich da noch keinen Bereich im im roten Bereich, wo wir sagen, da ist jetzt aber eine 1 sehr starke Abh\u00e4ngigkeit, was bei ja den Es gibt ja schon andere Studien, die sich mit digitaler Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t in der Bundesverwaltung besch\u00e4ftigen, beispielsweise im Kontext Datenbanken oder B\u00fcrosoftware.", "start": 1973.005, "end": 1999.135}, {"text": "Da war das Fazit gr\u00f6\u00dftenteils sehr anders.", "start": 2000.155, "end": 2002.735}, {"text": "Da war aber eigentlich bestanden die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten auch immer schon sehr lange und es ging in den Studien wahrscheinlich eher darum zu schauen, wie kann man das vielleicht abmildern oder irgendwie da rauskommen?", "start": 2003.46, "end": 2014.2}, {"text": "Aber jetzt im Bereich der gro\u00dfen Sprachmodelle ist diese Betrachtung einfach schon sehr fr\u00fchzeitig angesto\u00dfen worden, bevor solche Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten sich tats\u00e4chlich schon tats\u00e4chlich schon entstehen oder sich verfestigen konnten.", "start": 2014.66, "end": 2028.765}, {"text": "Und auch da w\u00fcrde ich sagen, das ist sehr, sehr positiv, dass einfach mit dieser Betrachtung m\u00f6glicher Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten im Kontext KI und grade gro\u00dfer Sprachmodelle jetzt schon so fr\u00fchzeitig in der Entwicklung begonnen wurde und es ist nat\u00fcrlich auch eine Empfehlung, das das fortzuf\u00fchren und jetzt nicht zu sagen, okay, die Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten, die sind jetzt noch nicht da oder auf jeden Fall nicht gro\u00df, sondern es ist halt 'n sehr hochdynamisches Feld.", "start": 2029.0651, "end": 2053.625}], "start": 1973.005, "end": 2053.625, "num_words": 213.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Man muss nat\u00fcrlich auch weiter betrachten, wie sich das entwickelt, auch mit mit neuen Entwicklungen, die dazu beobachten, sind KI Agentensysteme und weitere, die wir in der Studie auch schon ansprechen.", "start": 2053.845, "end": 2063.9001}, {"text": "Und nat\u00fcrlich kann es auch Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten geben in Bezug auf andere Ebenen, die aber mit gro\u00dfen Sprachmodellen zusammenh\u00e4ngen, beispielsweise Hardware oder Cloud.", "start": 2064.92, "end": 2074.78}, {"text": "Das war jetzt au\u00dferhalb des Scopes dieser Studie, aber auch da ist es nat\u00fcrlich m\u00f6glich, dass sich die Bundesverwaltung in Abh\u00e4ngigkeiten begeben k\u00f6nnte.", "start": 2075.7952, "end": 2084.455}], "start": 2053.845, "end": 2084.455, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Und wie sie das eben nicht machen kann und wie souver\u00e4ne Chatbots auch eine souver\u00e4ne Verwaltung st\u00fctzen, dar\u00fcber haben wir heute gesprochen in.", "start": 2084.995, "end": 2093.1199}, {"text": "Digital, dem Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums \u00f6ffentlicher IT.", "start": 2093.8198, "end": 2096.96}, {"text": "Ganz herzlichen Dank an Nicole Opiala und Dorian Wachsmann.", "start": 2097.02, "end": 2099.8198}, {"text": "Sch\u00f6n, dass", "start": 2099.8198, "end": 2100.14}], "start": 2084.995, "end": 2100.14, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0}, {"sentences": [{"text": "ihr hier wart.", "start": 2100.14, "end": 2100.78}, {"text": "Dankesch\u00f6n.", "start": 2100.78, "end": 2101.28}], "start": 2100.14, "end": 2101.28, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 2}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Danke dir.", "start": 2101.74, "end": 2102.7}], "start": 2101.74, "end": 2102.7, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1}, {"sentences": [{"text": "Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und vielen weiteren Apps und schreibt uns auch gern eine Bewertung, wenn ihr m\u00f6gt.", "start": 2102.7, "end": 2111.325}, {"text": "Tsch\u00fcs und bis bald, ich bin Philipp 1.", "start": 2111.385, "end": 2113.805}], "start": 2102.7, "end": 2113.805, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 0}]}, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null}], "detected_language": ""}], "utterances": [{"start": 0.08, "end": 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F\u00fcr eure Studie habt ihr euch gro\u00dfe Sprachmodelle in der Bundesverwaltung", "words": [{"word": "die", "start": 172.44, "end": 172.59999, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "da", "start": 172.59999, "end": 172.84, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "da", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "sind", "start": 172.84, "end": 173.08, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "sind,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "die", "start": 173.08, "end": 173.31999, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "arbeit", "start": 173.31999, "end": 173.64, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Arbeit", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "ein", "start": 173.64, "end": 173.72, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "ein", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "bisschen", "start": 173.72, "end": 174.12, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "bisschen", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "erleichtern", "start": 174.12, "end": 174.62, "confidence": 0.9995117, "punctuated_word": "erleichtern.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.72841233}, {"word": "f\u00fcr", "start": 174.84, "end": 175.23999, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "F\u00fcr", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "eure", "start": 175.23999, "end": 175.64, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "eure", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "studie", "start": 175.64, "end": 175.79999, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Studie", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "habt", "start": 175.79999, "end": 176.04, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "habt", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "ihr", "start": 176.04, "end": 176.12, "confidence": 0.9770508, "punctuated_word": "ihr", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "euch", "start": 176.12, "end": 176.36, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "euch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "gro\u00dfe", "start": 176.36, "end": 176.68, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "gro\u00dfe", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "sprachmodelle", "start": 176.68, "end": 177.18, "confidence": 0.99853516, "punctuated_word": "Sprachmodelle", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "in", "start": 177.23999, "end": 177.31999, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "in", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.64618796}, {"word": "der", "start": 177.31999, "end": 177.48, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "der", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "bundesverwaltung", "start": 177.48, "end": 177.98, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "Bundesverwaltung", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}], "speaker": 0, "id": "b4bb21fa-9e19-456e-abd0-69dd385c7ab4"}, {"start": 178.51999, "end": 180.54, "confidence": 0.9821167, "channel": 0, "transcript": "angeschaut, 33 Projekte insgesamt.", "words": [{"word": "angeschaut", "start": 178.51999, "end": 178.92, "confidence": 0.94555664, "punctuated_word": "angeschaut,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "33", "start": 178.92, "end": 179.42, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "33", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "projekte", "start": 179.64, "end": 180.04, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "Projekte", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "insgesamt", "start": 180.04, "end": 180.54, "confidence": 0.9848633, "punctuated_word": "insgesamt.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}], "speaker": 0, "id": "3e5cc565-2db7-437d-9ba4-25adb992a1e1"}, {"start": 181.77501, "end": 186.115, "confidence": 0.98185223, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Warum eigentlich dieser Fokus auf digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t? Ihr hattet ja auch 'n anderen w\u00e4hlen k\u00f6nnen.", "words": [{"word": "warum", "start": 181.77501, "end": 182.255, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Warum", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "eigentlich", "start": 182.255, "end": 182.575, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "eigentlich", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "dieser", "start": 182.575, "end": 182.895, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "dieser", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "fokus", "start": 182.895, "end": 183.215, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Fokus", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "auf", "start": 183.215, "end": 183.535, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "digitale", "start": 183.535, "end": 183.855, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "digitale", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t", "start": 183.855, "end": 184.355, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "ihr", "start": 184.495, "end": 184.575, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "Ihr", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "hattet", "start": 184.575, "end": 184.735, "confidence": 0.83740234, "punctuated_word": "hattet", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "ja", "start": 184.735, "end": 184.815, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "ja", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "auch", "start": 184.815, "end": 184.895, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "auch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "'n", "start": 184.895, "end": 185.05501, "confidence": 0.95581055, "punctuated_word": "'n", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "anderen", "start": 185.05501, "end": 185.295, "confidence": 0.9580078, "punctuated_word": "anderen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "w\u00e4hlen", "start": 185.295, "end": 185.615, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "w\u00e4hlen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}, {"word": "k\u00f6nnen", "start": 185.615, "end": 186.115, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "k\u00f6nnen.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.90011907}], "speaker": 0, "id": "86e1d120-30b6-4fcb-8c9e-b467de3ffcf8"}, {"start": 186.41501, "end": 198.02, "confidence": 0.9754428, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Ja, also digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t ist, denk ich, sp\u00e4testens seit diesem Jahr angekommen. 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Wir haben jetzt aktuell,", "words": [{"word": "und", "start": 199.04, "end": 199.2, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "und", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "wird", "start": 199.2, "end": 199.44, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wird", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "in", "start": 199.44, "end": 199.68, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "in", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "unterschiedlichen", "start": 199.68, "end": 200.18, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "unterschiedlichen", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "kontexten", "start": 200.24, "end": 200.74, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Kontexten", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "unterschiedlich", "start": 200.88, "end": 201.38, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "unterschiedlich", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "verwendet", "start": 201.6, "end": 202.1, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "verwendet.", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "wir", "start": 202.24, "end": 202.4, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Wir", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "haben", "start": 202.4, "end": 202.56, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "haben", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "jetzt", "start": 202.56, "end": 202.88, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "jetzt", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "aktuell", "start": 202.88, "end": 203.38, "confidence": 0.99194336, "punctuated_word": "aktuell,", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}], "speaker": 2, "id": "02951ddf-3c31-4e83-82c0-4d97350184a6"}, {"start": 203.84, "end": 206.82, "confidence": 0.9969657, "channel": 0, "transcript": "wenn \u00fcber digitale Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t gesprochen wird, h\u00e4ufig", "words": [{"word": "wenn", "start": 203.84, "end": 204.08, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wenn", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "\u00fcber", "start": 204.08, "end": 204.4, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "\u00fcber", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "digitale", "start": 204.4, "end": 204.88, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "digitale", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t", "start": 204.88, "end": 205.38, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Souver\u00e4nit\u00e4t", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "gesprochen", "start": 205.6, "end": 206.0, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "gesprochen", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "wird", "start": 206.0, "end": 206.32, "confidence": 0.9797363, "punctuated_word": "wird,", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}, {"word": "h\u00e4ufig", "start": 206.32, "end": 206.82, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "h\u00e4ufig", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9964845}], "speaker": 2, "id": "5bcfe273-1998-4cd5-82ea-ddd3a95dd517"}, {"start": 207.36, "end": 214.465, "confidence": 0.9777832, "channel": 0, "transcript": "den Open Source Gedanken prim\u00e4r im Kopf. 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Dann geborene ich mich nat\u00fcrlich sehr schnell in eine Abh\u00e4ngigkeit,", "words": [{"word": "einen", "start": 537.31, "end": 537.63, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "einen", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8198812}, {"word": "anbieter", "start": 537.63, "end": 538.11, "confidence": 0.98706055, "punctuated_word": "Anbieter,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8198812}, {"word": "auf", "start": 538.11, "end": 538.27, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.8198812}, {"word": "den", "start": 538.27, "end": 538.43, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "den", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ich", "start": 538.43, "end": 538.67, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "ich", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "zur\u00fcckgreifen", "start": 538.67, "end": 539.17, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "zur\u00fcckgreifen", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "kann", "start": 539.39, "end": 539.87, "confidence": 0.97314453, "punctuated_word": "kann?", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "dann", "start": 539.87, "end": 540.19, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "Dann", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "geborene", "start": 540.19, "end": 540.43, "confidence": 0.6533203, "punctuated_word": "geborene", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ich", "start": 540.43, "end": 540.59, "confidence": 0.9838867, "punctuated_word": "ich", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "mich", "start": 540.59, "end": 540.75, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "mich", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "nat\u00fcrlich", "start": 540.75, "end": 541.07, "confidence": 0.9707031, "punctuated_word": "nat\u00fcrlich", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "sehr", "start": 541.07, "end": 541.39, "confidence": 0.99121094, "punctuated_word": "sehr", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "schnell", "start": 541.39, "end": 541.71, "confidence": 0.9892578, "punctuated_word": "schnell", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "in", "start": 541.71, "end": 541.95, "confidence": 0.96777344, "punctuated_word": "in", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "eine", "start": 541.95, "end": 542.19, "confidence": 0.8925781, "punctuated_word": "eine", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "abh\u00e4ngigkeit", "start": 542.19, "end": 542.69, "confidence": 0.99853516, "punctuated_word": "Abh\u00e4ngigkeit,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}], "speaker": 1, "id": "58b45ece-148a-4fc8-b819-dea7b006ebb1"}, {"start": 543.495, "end": 550.23505, "confidence": 0.993061, "channel": 0, "transcript": "die nat\u00fcrlich sehr unterschiedliche negative Konsequenzen haben kann. 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Und wir haben dann auf dieser Basis", "words": [{"word": "und", "start": 621.22, "end": 621.45996, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Und", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "das", "start": 621.45996, "end": 621.94, "confidence": 0.76464844, "punctuated_word": "das", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "diese", "start": 621.94, "end": 622.26, "confidence": 0.87353516, "punctuated_word": "diese", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "3", "start": 622.26, "end": 622.5, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "3", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "ziele", "start": 622.5, "end": 622.89996, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Ziele", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "ziehen", "start": 622.89996, "end": 623.22, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "ziehen", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "sich", "start": 623.22, "end": 623.38, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "sich", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "auch", "start": 623.38, "end": 623.69995, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "auch", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "durch", "start": 623.69995, "end": 624.01996, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "durch", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "unser", "start": 624.01996, "end": 624.42, "confidence": 0.58447266, "punctuated_word": "unser", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "unsere", "start": 624.42, "end": 624.82, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "unsere", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "gesamte", "start": 624.82, "end": 625.3, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "gesamte", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "studie", "start": 625.3, "end": 625.77997, "confidence": 0.9082031, "punctuated_word": "Studie.", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "und", "start": 625.77997, "end": 625.86, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "Und", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "wir", "start": 625.86, "end": 626.1, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "haben", "start": 626.1, "end": 626.26, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "haben", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.9136565}, {"word": "dann", "start": 626.26, "end": 626.42, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "dann", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "auf", "start": 626.42, "end": 626.715, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "dieser", "start": 626.715, "end": 627.03503, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "dieser", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "basis", "start": 627.03503, "end": 627.53503, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Basis", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}], "speaker": 2, "id": "070dab75-4787-4e89-a918-08773e69618e"}, {"start": 628.395, "end": 631.29504, "confidence": 0.97372156, "channel": 0, "transcript": "uns gefragt, wir haben diese Ziele? Wie k\u00f6nnen wir sie erreichen?", "words": [{"word": "uns", "start": 628.395, "end": 628.635, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "uns", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "gefragt", "start": 628.635, "end": 629.135, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "gefragt,", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "wir", "start": 629.195, "end": 629.435, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "haben", "start": 629.435, "end": 629.59503, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "haben", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "diese", "start": 629.59503, "end": 629.835, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "diese", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "ziele", "start": 629.835, "end": 630.155, "confidence": 0.7416992, "punctuated_word": "Ziele?", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.71751726}, {"word": "wie", "start": 630.155, "end": 630.315, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Wie", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "k\u00f6nnen", "start": 630.315, "end": 630.47504, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "k\u00f6nnen", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "wir", "start": 630.47504, "end": 630.635, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "sie", "start": 630.635, "end": 630.79504, "confidence": 0.9863281, "punctuated_word": "sie", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "erreichen", "start": 630.79504, "end": 631.29504, "confidence": 0.98583984, "punctuated_word": "erreichen?", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}], "speaker": 2, "id": "248a02c4-98dd-4e03-87ec-035e31fda3b3"}, {"start": 632.075, "end": 634.17505, "confidence": 0.92911786, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Und sind dann von da gestartet.", "words": [{"word": "und", "start": 632.075, "end": 632.47504, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Und", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "sind", "start": 632.47504, "end": 632.715, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "sind", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "dann", "start": 632.715, "end": 633.195, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "dann", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "von", "start": 633.195, "end": 633.435, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "von", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "da", "start": 633.435, "end": 633.67505, "confidence": 0.57666016, "punctuated_word": "da", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}, {"word": "gestartet", "start": 633.67505, "end": 634.17505, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "gestartet.", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.80060065}], "speaker": 2, "id": "e09c0052-e9ac-4def-8991-8df335e2cfae"}, {"start": 634.715, "end": 647.43005, "confidence": 0.9681063, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Blicken wir noch mal etwas genauer auf die Studie selbst. Wie seid ihr vorgegangen? Wie habt ihr auch methodisch gearbeitet, Dloven? 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Ob sie die selber entwickeln muss, so weit w\u00fcrden wir nicht gehen. Also auf Sprachmodellebene,", "words": [{"word": "selbst", "start": 904.545, "end": 904.785, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "selbst", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.84356225}, {"word": "solche", "start": 904.785, "end": 905.285, "confidence": 0.99121094, "punctuated_word": "solche", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.84356225}, {"word": "europ\u00e4ischen", "start": 905.345, "end": 905.825, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "europ\u00e4ischen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.84356225}, {"word": "l\u00f6sungen", "start": 905.825, "end": 906.225, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "L\u00f6sungen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.84356225}, {"word": "entwickelt", "start": 906.225, "end": 906.725, "confidence": 0.99365234, "punctuated_word": "entwickelt?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.84356225}, {"word": "ob", "start": 906.945, "end": 907.265, "confidence": 0.8925781, "punctuated_word": "Ob", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "sie", "start": 907.265, "end": 907.505, "confidence": 0.9536133, "punctuated_word": "sie", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "die", "start": 907.505, "end": 907.665, "confidence": 0.7495117, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "selber", "start": 907.665, "end": 908.145, "confidence": 0.97314453, "punctuated_word": "selber", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "entwickeln", "start": 908.145, "end": 908.545, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "entwickeln", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "muss", "start": 908.545, "end": 908.785, "confidence": 0.9375, "punctuated_word": "muss,", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "so", "start": 908.785, "end": 908.945, "confidence": 0.6611328, "punctuated_word": "so", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "weit", "start": 908.945, "end": 909.105, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "weit", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "w\u00fcrden", "start": 909.105, "end": 909.345, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "w\u00fcrden", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "wir", "start": 909.345, "end": 909.505, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "nicht", "start": 909.505, "end": 909.665, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "nicht", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "gehen", "start": 909.665, "end": 909.90497, "confidence": 0.9182129, "punctuated_word": "gehen.", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "also", "start": 909.90497, "end": 910.065, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Also", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "auf", "start": 910.065, "end": 910.225, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}, {"word": "sprachmodellebene", "start": 910.225, "end": 910.725, "confidence": 0.9333496, "punctuated_word": "Sprachmodellebene,", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.89705217}], "speaker": 2, "id": "6caebc7c-512d-4a90-897c-2254d48c5b4f"}, {"start": 911.105, "end": 924.66, "confidence": 0.98213124, "channel": 0, "transcript": "wir haben durchaus Also wir haben eine Empfehlung drin, wo wir sagen, es sollte evaluiert werden, ob es sinnvoll w\u00e4re, ein eigenes Sprachmodell zu entwickeln. 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Also wie kann man da mehr in sonen Art Zusammenarbeiten kommen? 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Finde ich auch sehr plausibel und sehr nachvollziehbar.", "words": [{"word": "der", "start": 1421.49, "end": 1421.73, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "der", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.9961848}, {"word": "verwaltung", "start": 1421.73, "end": 1422.13, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "Verwaltung", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.9961848}, {"word": "nicht", "start": 1422.13, "end": 1422.37, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "nicht", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.9961848}, {"word": "einschr\u00e4nken", "start": 1422.37, "end": 1422.87, "confidence": 0.99853516, "punctuated_word": "einschr\u00e4nken,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.9961848}, {"word": "wenn", "start": 1422.93, "end": 1423.09, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "wenn", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.9961848}, {"word": "sie", "start": 1423.09, "end": 1423.25, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "sie", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ausfallen", "start": 1423.25, "end": 1423.75, "confidence": 0.95751953, "punctuated_word": "ausfallen.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "finde", "start": 1423.8099, "end": 1423.97, "confidence": 0.8232422, "punctuated_word": "Finde", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ich", "start": 1423.97, "end": 1424.13, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "ich", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "auch", "start": 1424.13, "end": 1424.29, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "auch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "sehr", "start": 1424.29, "end": 1424.53, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "sehr", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "plausibel", "start": 1424.53, "end": 1424.85, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "plausibel", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "und", "start": 1424.85, "end": 1425.01, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "und", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "sehr", "start": 1425.01, "end": 1425.25, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "sehr", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "nachvollziehbar", "start": 1425.25, "end": 1425.75, "confidence": 0.9995117, "punctuated_word": "nachvollziehbar.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}], "speaker": 0, "id": "7dc11d8c-85a4-4cb5-acc0-1e9c2432c116"}, {"start": 1426.61, "end": 1431.27, "confidence": 0.934239, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Erst haben wir schon gesagt, eingangs, na ja, diese Systeme sollen ja nicht Mitarbeitende", "words": [{"word": "erst", "start": 1426.61, "end": 1426.93, "confidence": 0.7368164, "punctuated_word": "Erst", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "haben", "start": 1426.93, "end": 1427.01, "confidence": 0.9267578, "punctuated_word": "haben", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "wir", "start": 1427.01, "end": 1427.17, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "schon", "start": 1427.17, "end": 1427.33, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "schon", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "gesagt", "start": 1427.33, "end": 1427.83, "confidence": 0.84472656, "punctuated_word": "gesagt,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "eingangs", "start": 1428.05, "end": 1428.53, "confidence": 0.6513672, "punctuated_word": "eingangs,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "na", "start": 1428.53, "end": 1428.77, "confidence": 0.9453125, "punctuated_word": "na", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ja", "start": 1428.77, "end": 1429.17, "confidence": 0.9812012, "punctuated_word": "ja,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "diese", "start": 1429.17, "end": 1429.57, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "diese", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "systeme", "start": 1429.57, "end": 1429.97, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Systeme", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "sollen", "start": 1429.97, "end": 1430.13, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "sollen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "ja", "start": 1430.13, "end": 1430.37, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "ja", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "nicht", "start": 1430.53, "end": 1430.77, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "nicht", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}, {"word": "mitarbeitende", "start": 1430.77, "end": 1431.27, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Mitarbeitende", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 1.0}], "speaker": 0, "id": "8243595e-65fe-432a-bf9d-488e8be77240"}, {"start": 1431.895, "end": 1436.875, "confidence": 0.98535156, "channel": 0, "transcript": "ersetzen, sie sollen sie unterst\u00fctzen. 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Also es gibt zum Beispiel", "words": [{"word": "die", "start": 1597.135, "end": 1597.295, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "wir", "start": 1597.295, "end": 1597.615, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "untersuchen", "start": 1597.615, "end": 1598.115, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "untersuchen", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "oder", "start": 1598.255, "end": 1598.495, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "oder", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "die", "start": 1598.495, "end": 1598.655, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "wir", "start": 1598.655, "end": 1598.815, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.950776}, {"word": "auch", "start": 1598.815, "end": 1598.975, "confidence": 1.0, 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